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Ok Mr. B.,
This next part will answer your following questions....

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, I'm not so sure one should take the question: "Who shall be able to Stand?" in a literal sense. I think it's a Rhetorical Question. I think so because His Wrath has come! However, the 144,000 are sealed at that point; the Earth, Sea, and Trees are subsequently not harmed until they are Divinely protected, and then the Rapture occurs.

First, the question is to be understood in the same manner as the same words in Malachi 3 and in Rev 11. Of course it is understood as rhetorical, but even rhetorical questions are Answered In Some Form right? In our thoughts and minds they find an answer, they can also be answered by the layout of a text...such as is found in Malachi 3....please note the following...
Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for
he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi
, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

As you can see by the following example ,the Answer to "Who Shall Stand" is Answered in the few following verses in Malachi 3.
Is there any doubt that there is a clear comparison in the same words in all three places ( Mal 3,Rev 6 and Rev11)? There should be none, no doubt at all.

The words "after these things", or "After this I beheld" are not a problem in the least Mr. B.....John is just simply saying what he saw "Next" in the vision.
What he "Saw Next" were Those that "Will Stand" When Christ Appears.....When His Wrath Does Come...These Shall Stand....The 144,000 and The Church.

Mr Baldy wrote:the 144,000 are sealed prior to His Wrath, and the Multitude subsequently appear in Heaven. This is very clear evidence that the Great Tribulation is still occurring; and the Church has been removed - save the 144, 000 who have to be Divinely protected in order to STAND.

I agree completely, God's Wrath occurs After the rapture, Saints in Heaven and 144,000 protected on the earth through that Wrath.

Now here's where you must just think in terms of Eastern Forms and not those of the West that we are so stumbled by.
Eastern, Hebraic form is Repetitious. It overlays, expounds and enlarges upon previous words and statements. It's like Fabric woven together, a Word Tapestry.
Prophecy is so much the same.
Read the first chapter of Zechariah Mr. B. and take notice of how it is even given as an Intro to the Whole of what the rest of the Entire book involves.

To find an exact comparison to the Form or layout of Rev. among other Apocalyptic books is not possible though, and i'll tell you why.
There is a very close similarity in the Scroll, Horses, Two Witnesses, Temple (Spiritually) Built and so on between Zechariah and Revelation...very clear to see.
The big difference, and this is so important , "The Scroll", it became the major clue for my current understanding of the Revelation to John.
Note the Difference in the Scroll in Zechariah and the Revelation.....One is Closed....and the Other Becomes Opened

It doesn't start out Opened
. That's the key...WHEN IT DOES OPEN, That's "The Revelation" Expounded, "Laid Open" "Made Plain and Clear", "Made Known"!
That Book/Scroll that IS OPEN in the hand of the Mighty Angel at the end of Rev. 10 IS THE OPENED SCROLL.

When the seals are first spoken of in Rev 6, the Scroll is Still Closed, and Remains Closed until the SEVENTH SEAL is Broken.
That's Why Mr. B., That's Why seals 4-6 of Rev 6 is an Overview...Laid Over as a Condensed (ROLLED UP Tightly AS A Scroll)TIMESPAN, it Shares the Same Future Time as the Seven Trumpets.

And the Words of Rev 6"His Wrath is Come" and Rev 11 "HIs Wrath is Come" Share the Same TimeFrame in the Future.

The Wrath of God Does Not begin at Rev 7.....God's Wrath begins in REAL TIME when the Bowls/Vials are outpoured AFTER the Seventh (Last)
Trump.


Will add more later

Hi Shorty,

Still considering your theory..............however, let's do address some of the points you make:

shorttribber wrote: Of course it is understood as rhetorical, but even rhetorical questions are Answered In Some Form right?

No.... I disagree. When rhetorical questions are asked - the person asking the question doesn't need a person to "form an answer", as the answer should be obvious. Hence the term "rhetorical".

shorttribber wrote:The words "after these things", or "After this I beheld" are not a problem in the least Mr. B.....John is just simply saying what he saw "Next" in the vision.

Exactly - couldn't agree more.

shorttribber wrote:What he "Saw Next" were Those that "Will Stand" When Christ Appears.....When His Wrath Does Come...These Shall Stand....The 144,000 and The Church.

Yes - however "When Christ Appears" is not mentioned at this point - this is an assumption on your part. Nevertheless, lets put this into perspective. Because there was an "order" provided by John. It is a sequence of events that had to happen PRIOR to his rhetorical question: "Who is able to Stand". First the Cosmic Disturbances occur which is a precursor to the Day of the Lord signifying that it is about to start. But it cannot start just yet - because AFTER these things (cosmic events), he notes that the 144,000 have to be sealed prior to the Earth being harmed - AFTER that a "multitude appears in Heaven prior to the Earth being harmed as well - and again, the Great Tribulation period is STILL going on. There is no separate portion of Gods Wrath in relation to the Great Tribulation as it appears to be a part of it at this point. After the 144,000 are sealed they are on Earth - and this "multitude" that he sees is in Heaven.

shorttribber wrote:I agree completely, God's Wrath occurs After the rapture, Saints in Heaven and 144,000 protected on the earth through that Wrath.

Ok... now - I see that you have agreed with the 144,000 being on Earth - and the Raptured Saints in Heaven, then how would you reconcile John 6:39;40;44 - when Jesus mentions that He will raise those in Him up on the LAST DAY?

shorttribber wrote:The big difference, and this is so important , "The Scroll", it became the major clue for my current understanding of the Revelation to John. Note the Difference in the Scroll in Zechariah and the Revelation.....One is Closed....and the Other Becomes Opened It doesn't start out Opened. That's the key...WHEN IT DOES OPEN, That's "The Revelation" Expounded, "Laid Open" "Made Plain and Clear", "Made Known"! That Book/Scroll that IS OPEN in the hand of the Mighty Angel at the end of Rev. 10 IS THE OPENED SCROLL.

Hummmmmmmmm. Shorty, I'm a bit confused in your aforementioned comments. First I NEVER see any point in the Book of Revelation that "The Scroll" is ever "Opened". Revelation 10 mentions the "Little Book" which is completely different from the Scroll that ONLY Jesus is found worthy to even touch or look at: (Revelation 5:1-3) - and that is in Heaven or Earth. There is a "Mighty Angel" associated with this "Little Book" - and he brings it down from Heaven. Two different entities - (Scroll; Little Book)

shorttribber wrote:When the seals are first spoken of in Rev 6, the Scroll is Still Closed, and Remains Closed until the SEVENTH SEAL is Broken. That's Why Mr. B., That's Why seals 4-6 of Rev 6 is an Overview...Laid Over as a Condensed (ROLLED UP Tightly AS A Scroll)TIMESPAN, it Shares the Same Future Time as the Seven Trumpets.

Again Shorty, I don't see any Evidence where the Scroll is ever "Opened" - which makes me question the significance of the Scroll - however, I do see evidence that each time a "Seal" is opened things happen. Perhaps because Jesus is the only ONE worthy to touch or look at it could be the overall significance of the Scroll however. Also, I do see that there is an obvious timespan that happens after the Sixth Seal is opened and before the Seventh Seal begins . However, the Sixth Seal, in my very humble opinion - that is where His Wrath Begins - with the Cosmic Disturbances.

In closing, I am still considering what you are presenting - but we will have to work out these apparent discrepancies as we continue to move along.

Hi Shorty,

Still considering your theory..............however, let's do address some of the points you make:

shorttribber wrote: Of course it is understood as rhetorical, but even rhetorical questions are Answered In Some Form right?

No.... I disagree. When rhetorical questions are asked - the person asking the question doesn't need a person to "form an answer", as the answer should be obvious. Hence the term "rhetorical".

shorttribber wrote:The words "after these things", or "After this I beheld" are not a problem in the least Mr. B.....John is just simply saying what he saw "Next" in the vision.

Exactly - couldn't agree more.

shorttribber wrote:What he "Saw Next" were Those that "Will Stand" When Christ Appears.....When His Wrath Does Come...These Shall Stand....The 144,000 and The Church.

Yes - however "When Christ Appears" is not mentioned at this point - this is an assumption on your part. Nevertheless, lets put this into perspective. Because there was an "order" provided by John. It is a sequence of events that had to happen PRIOR to his rhetorical question: "Who is able to Stand". First the Cosmic Disturbances occur which is a precursor to the Day of the Lord signifying that it is about to start. But it cannot start just yet - because AFTER these things (cosmic events), he notes that the 144,000 have to be sealed prior to the Earth being harmed - AFTER that a "multitude appears in Heaven prior to the Earth being harmed as well - and again, the Great Tribulation period is STILL going on. There is no separate portion of Gods Wrath in relation to the Great Tribulation as it appears to be a part of it at this point. After the 144,000 are sealed they are on Earth - and this "multitude" that he sees is in Heaven.

shorttribber wrote:I agree completely, God's Wrath occurs After the rapture, Saints in Heaven and 144,000 protected on the earth through that Wrath.

Ok... now - I see that you have agreed with the 144,000 being on Earth - and the Raptured Saints in Heaven, then how would you reconcile John 6:39;40;44 - when Jesus mentions that He will raise those in Him up on the LAST DAY?

shorttribber wrote:The big difference, and this is so important , "The Scroll", it became the major clue for my current understanding of the Revelation to John. Note the Difference in the Scroll in Zechariah and the Revelation.....One is Closed....and the Other Becomes Opened It doesn't start out Opened. That's the key...WHEN IT DOES OPEN, That's "The Revelation" Expounded, "Laid Open" "Made Plain and Clear", "Made Known"! That Book/Scroll that IS OPEN in the hand of the Mighty Angel at the end of Rev. 10 IS THE OPENED SCROLL.

Hummmmmmmmm. Shorty, I'm a bit confused in your aforementioned comments. First I NEVER see any point in the Book of Revelation that "The Scroll" is ever "Opened". Revelation 10 mentions the "Little Book" which is completely different from the Scroll that ONLY Jesus is found worthy to even touch or look at: (Revelation 5:1-3) - and that is in Heaven or Earth. There is a "Mighty Angel" associated with this "Little Book" - and he brings it down from Heaven. Two different entities - (Scroll; Little Book)

shorttribber wrote:When the seals are first spoken of in Rev 6, the Scroll is Still Closed, and Remains Closed until the SEVENTH SEAL is Broken. That's Why Mr. B., That's Why seals 4-6 of Rev 6 is an Overview...Laid Over as a Condensed (ROLLED UP Tightly AS A Scroll)TIMESPAN, it Shares the Same Future Time as the Seven Trumpets.

Again Shorty, I don't see any Evidence where the Scroll is ever "Opened" - which makes me question the significance of the Scroll - however, I do see evidence that each time a "Seal" is opened things happen. Perhaps because Jesus is the only ONE worthy to touch or look at it could be the overall significance of the Scroll however. Also, I do see that there is an obvious timespan that happens after the Sixth Seal is opened and before the Seventh Seal begins . However, the Sixth Seal, in my very humble opinion - that is where His Wrath Begins - with the Cosmic Disturbances.

In closing, I am still considering what you are presenting - but we will have to work out these apparent discrepancies as we continue to move along.

Mr Baldy wrote:No.... I disagree. When rhetorical questions are asked - the person asking the question doesn't need a person to "form an answer", as the answer should be obvious. Hence the term "rhetorical".

Matter of semantics on this I think...of course the answer is obvious regarding a rhetorical question, and it is made obvious when the answer is plainly given, and that occurs in each place as I've said ( malachi 3, Rev 6 ).

Mr Baldy wrote:AFTER these things (cosmic events), he notes that the 144,000 have to be sealed prior to the Earth being harmed - AFTER that a "multitude appears in Heaven prior to the Earth being harmed as well - and again, the Great Tribulation period is STILL going on.

Let me ask you the following Mr. B., (1) at what point After the AOD do the Two Witnesses begin their ministry?
(2) At what point during the opening of the seals mark the beginning of the great trib.?
(3) At what point during the opening of the seals mark the beginning of the AOD?
(4) Do you believe the Rapture occurs After the "Last Trump"?
(5) How do you reconcile the plain statement, nearly identical statement of Rev 11 with Rev 6, if the rapture occurs After the last trump?

Mr Baldy wrote:Ok... now - I see that you have agreed with the 144,000 being on Earth - and the Raptured Saints in Heaven, then how would you reconcile John 6:39;40;44 - when Jesus mentions that He will raise those in Him up on the LAST DAY?

Because I believe the "Last day" has many events that can occur on Any twentyfour hour earthly day during "That Day", which does not require a continuous timeframe.

Mr Baldy wrote:Hummmmmmmmm. Shorty, I'm a bit confused in your aforementioned comments. First I NEVER see any point in the Book of Revelation that "The Scroll" is ever "Opened". Revelation 10 mentions the "Little Book" which is completely different from the Scroll that ONLY Jesus is found worthy to even touch or look at: (Revelation 5:1-3) - and that is in Heaven or Earth. There is a "Mighty Angel" associated with this "Little Book" - and he brings it down from Heaven. Two different entities - (Scroll; Little Book)

There is not a place where the scripture says, "Now the Scroll is opened" or something of the like, no.
But we can arrive at that simple conclusion simply by knowing that what kept an ancient scroll closed WERE The Seals.

Note this also....
Rev 5
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book
written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book
, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book
, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book
, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book
, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Since there are so many places telling us that the book At Some Point Would be Opened, it is just natural to understand that the scroll would Open After the Seals were Loosed.

Is that not reasonable Mr. B.? Surely you can't think it Unreasonable can you?

Mr Baldy wrote:Revelation 10 mentions the "Little Book" which is completely different from the Scroll that ONLY Jesus is found worthy to even touch or look at: (Revelation 5:1-3) - and that is in Heaven or Earth. There is a "Mighty Angel" associated with this "Little Book" - and he brings it down from Heaven. Two different entities - (Scroll; Little Book)

The scroll in the hand of the Mighty Angel can't be proven to be the same one, no, but I do believe it is....and i'll tell you why.

First, as I've already pointed out, the scroll should be opened after the seals have been loosed.
Second, the Mighty Angel, according to John's vision, is being described apparently as Enormous! One foot is standing on the Sea! The other foot is standing on what must appear to John as probably an entire Continent!
That same Sealed Scroll as John saw earlier in the vision would naturally Appear Very Small in relation to the Mighty Angel!
And it Was a Scroll that John saw in the Mighty Angels hand, not "a book", it has been translated "book" for later understanding of course.

The other part i'll point out is that the "Mighty Angel" that he saw was in fact a Vision of Christ....i'll add more in that regard for proof if you wish...just didn't want to drift too far off topic at this point.

shorttribber wrote:Let me ask you the following Mr. B., (1) at what point After the AOD do the Two Witnesses begin their ministry?(2) At what point during the opening of the seals mark the beginning of the great trib.?(3) At what point during the opening of the seals mark the beginning of the AOD?(4) Do you believe the Rapture occurs After the "Last Trump"?(5) How do you reconcile the plain statement, nearly identical statement of Rev 11 with Rev 6, if the rapture occurs After the last trump?

Shorty, these are some very Key Points that you bring up - and I'd like you to address them before I submit what I have to say, and as you have suggested in your commentary before we get off course. As a matter of fact, they are so Key to your theory - that it demands an explanation.

shorttribber wrote:Because I believe the "Last day" has many events that can occur on Any twentyfour hour earthly day during "That Day", which does not require a continuous timeframe.

I agree wholeheartedly with your aforementioned statement.

shorttribber wrote:There is not a place where the scripture says, "Now the Scroll is opened" or something of the like, no. But we can arrive at that simple conclusion simply by knowing that what kept an ancient scroll closed WERE The Seals.

I'm going to leave the issue with the Scroll alone for now - as there is various translations as far as it being a "Book" or a "Scroll" itself. So, I will allow you to conclude your comments before interrupting again. I mentioned it initially because it relates to the aforementioned comments you asked me concerning the timing of the 5 Events.

I will await your explanation - as I think that we are definitely moving on to something.

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:Let me ask you the following Mr. B., (1) at what point After the AOD do the Two Witnesses begin their ministry?(2) At what point during the opening of the seals mark the beginning of the great trib.?(3) At what point during the opening of the seals mark the beginning of the AOD?(4) Do you believe the Rapture occurs After the "Last Trump"?(5) How do you reconcile the plain statement, nearly identical statement of Rev 11 with Rev 6, if the rapture occurs After the last trump?
Mr. B. wrote: Shorty, these are some very Key Points that you bring up - and I'd like you to address them before I submit what I have to say, and as you have suggested in your commentary before we get off course. As a matter of fact, they are so Key to your theory - that it demands an explanation.

Ok...
1. Anwser is ....Immediately, they begin their ministry immediately After the AOD. And the AOD is what we are awaiting to Kick Off the Great Trib (No seven year trib of course...3.5 years only).
2. Answer is....Seal number four....AOD begins.
3. Answer is.....Seal 4.
4. Answer is......Yes (Rev11)
5. Answer is......It is reconciled by understanding that Both Occur at Exactly at the Same Time....in Real Time...Immediately After the Seventh trump Sounds.

Please keep in mind Mr. B.....Seals 4-6 and trumpets 1-7 Share the exact Same Timeframe in Real Time.

You know that the Two Witnesses minister for 3.5 years right? They appear in John's Vision between the 6th and 7th Trump.

Now Mr. B......These things can't be in an exact Time sequence as we think in Western Terms can they?
You and I know...there will be a remainder of 3.5 years of future trib only (plus75 mysterious days) right?
The two Witnesses Therefore MUST Begin at the Same Time as the Beginning of the AOD, right?
That being the case, How is it possible for the two Witnesses to Begin their ministry Between trump 6 and Trump 7?

Can you see how the Sequence is Absolutely Not in Exact order as we think with our Western Thought?.....The Vision is recorded in a Very Hebraic Manner, Folded or Weaved Over Itself....Seals 4-6 are LAID OVER Trumps 1-7.

The Traditional Prewrath Time Sequence you are clinging to Embraces the Seven Year Trib Idea...and there will not be a Seven Year Trib.

shorttribber wrote:These things can't be in an exact Time sequence as we think in Western Terms can they? You and I know...there will be a remainder of 3.5 years of future trib only (plus75 mysterious days) right? The two Witnesses Therefore MUST Begin at the Same Time as the Beginning of the AOD, right? That being the case, How is it possible for the two Witnesses to Begin their ministry Between trump 6 and Trump 7?

Shorty, I continue to be pleased with your responses - as they specifically address issues that many have been confused about. In saying that, I'm also not so sure I agree with what you have mentioned thus far, but your explanations as far as the way you believe...... well I understand why you have come to the conclusions that you have. I just can't completely agree at this point.

shorttribber wrote:Can you see how the Sequence is Absolutely Not in Exact order as we think with our Western Thought?.....The Vision is recorded in a Very Hebraic Manner, Folded or Weaved Over Itself....Seals 4-6 are LAID OVER Trumps 1-7.

This point my friend, needs to be reconciled with Scripture.

shorttribber wrote:The Traditional Prewrath Time Sequence you are clinging to Embraces the Seven Year Trib Idea...and there will not be a Seven Year Trib.

Yes, Shorty I am holding on to a Pre-Wrath view - however I don't know whether or not it is "Traditional" as you have mentioned. I have shown you in Scripture that the Pre-Wrath View is the correct view. Now, in mentioning that you and I both know that there is NOT a Seven Year Tribulation written ANYWHERE in Scripture.

The Book of Daniel mentions two very specific timeframes that need to be reconciled. So, together I am hoping that we can discover this mystery that has plagued many - even the very top Theologians.

First, as it relates to the LAST DAY we need to look at what timeframes are provided to us:

Daniel 9:24-27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24) “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25) So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26) Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27) And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

Now, I have embolden the 6 requirements that are to be fulfilled in this 70 week Timeframe that we are provided in Scripture. We know that at least one has been fulfilled - yet there are those that remain to be filled.
Question is...WHEN? My answer to that is AFTER He has destroyed the last enemy - which is Death, and He hands the Kingdom over to God the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL. That is the mission of the Son as further indicated in
1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

The Son's mission will not have been completed until AFTER He Reigns and has destroyed Death - which doesn't occur until after the "little season" Satan has been let loose from his prison to deceive the Nations AFTER His Millennial Reign.

Now, before I get ahead of myself - we have to reconcile Daniel 12 - the 3.5 years - and this mystery 75 Days that no one has seemed to have been able to factor into the parameters that have been set forth by Scripture.

Let's take a look at what Daniel 12 mentions - and factor it into what he mentioned earlier in Daniel 9:

Daniel 12:1-4 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Time of the End

1) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3)Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4) But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Daniel 12:1-4 specifically mentions the time that we know as the very beginning of the A0D - and can be referenced to Matthew 24:21.

What is interesting here is that in Daniel 12:1-4 & Matthew 24:21 - which is mentioning the exact same time period we see no coming Antichrist mentioned. We do know that it is the "Tribulation" period beginning.

Now lets look further in Daniel 12:6-9

“How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” 7) I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. 8) As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9) He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

In the aforementioned passage of Scripture we have Daniel asking "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" So the question ALSO becomes "What Wonders?" Well, Daniel is given a time, times and half a time which we know is 3.5 years - and the wonders that are associated with this timeframe are the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24. However..... it goes on to mention "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people" - ALL THESE EVENTS WILL BE COMPLETED.

So, based on the Scriptural evidence we are provided in Revelation 20 - which shows the Millennial Reign of Christ; Satan bound for 1,000 years; The "Little Season" Satan deceives the Nations after his release from prison; and the Final Rebellion.... could this include what is mentioned to Daniel when he is told "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people?

I ask this because in the response to Daniel; in Daniel 12:7 the man dressed in linen also incudes the word "and" which means to include this specific time that they "finish shattering the power of the holy people". And this is also AFTER the man in linen mentions the 3.5 year timeframe given.

This leads up to this Verse in Daniel 12:11-13 - which has confused MANY:

8) As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9) He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10) Many will be purged,purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11) From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12) How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13) But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”

The aforementioned passage of Scripture casts reasonable DOUBT that we are not just looking at a 3.5 year period, as you and I currently believe. However, could this 75 Day period be referring to what the man dressed in linen referred to in that he stated: "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people?"

Well, if this is true, then lets take another look at your Theory:


You have included this extra 75 days mentioned or at least a 45 day portion of Scripture in which you think God's Wrath is poured out. In our discussion, I have conceded that Christ's Ministry here on Earth possibly fulfilled 3.5 years of the remaining week of the 70 years. However, in looking at all of this as a whole, I believe that we still may be missing something.

Again, I find no evidence whatsoever that there is a 7 year Tribulation period - as a matter of fact, Scripture itself proves that theory incorrect.

Also, by your very own prior comments, your Short/Trib Theory "may" have to be re-visited. You have previously mentioned that the Saints will have to endure the entire 3.5 years in which the Antichrist is given power, and the Body of Christ is "protected". However, you give no explanation as to those who will have survived the Great Tribulation; have become saved during this time period; and will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth. Furthermore, your theory of Revelation 7 and the explanation thereof of has too many moving "parts" as it relates to the Bowls; Trumpets; and Seals - as I have not found a satisfactory answer as to why we see this "Multitude in Heaven" and the Great Tribulation is still going on - at least at this juncture. You also have produced this 45 days of Wrath being poured out by God on the Earth timeframe, and have mentioned that the Rapture will have occurred and an unknown time during this segment, but sometime AFTER the Great Tribulation. Again, thus far, I have found no evidence to support this.

In Closing............... the question(s) now becomes:

1) Do we still yet have a future FINAL week to look forward to?
2) Is the LAST DAY actually the time that Christ Appears - and there is NO Millennial Kingdom?

no chance to comment tonight Mr. B... hope to tomorrow...blessings and

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:Can you see how the Sequence is Absolutely Not in Exact order as we think with our Western Thought?.....The Vision is recorded in a Very Hebraic Manner, Folded or Weaved Over Itself....Seals 4-6 are LAID OVER Trumps 1-7.
Mr. B. wrote: This point my friend, needs to be reconciled with Scripture.

I think I have, how haven't I in your opinion.

The Seals of the scroll is a brief overview of the more detailed Trumpets and shows those who will "Stand" during the outpoured bowls.
That IS How they are correctly reconciled Mr. B.

Mr Baldy wrote:Yes, Shorty I am holding on to a Pre-Wrath view - however I don't know whether or not it is "Traditional" as you have mentioned. I have shown you in Scripture that the Pre-Wrath View is the correct view.

You have shown how Parts of the Traditional prewrath view is correct, yes, but the Wrath of God does not begin at the Trumps.

Mr Baldy wrote:The Book of Daniel mentions two very specific timeframes that need to be reconciled.

Actually there's three as far as I know...the 2,300 days is the third one, and I have only one possible idea on that one, and it will send us down an impossible rabbit trail I'm sure.

Mr Baldy wrote:First, as it relates to the LAST DAY we need to look at what timeframes are provided to us: Daniel 9:24-27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)Seventy Weeks and the Messiah24) “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

We should look at the scriptural requirements that you have above from Daniel 9 in ref to the 70 weeks only I think.
They are to be met during the 70 weeks only, and do not extend until the time of the Closing of the 1,000 reign when Sin and Death are thrown into the lake of fire.

I'll tell ya why.

The requirements are meant to be understood in light of the 70 weeks Only. Now, I know that you see that those things can't be Completely Fulfilled until Death and Sin ENDS in REAL TIME.....FOREVER, right?

Those matters have been discussed before, and I think the answers that have been provided in that regard are quite reasonable.....the answers I've given in the past are, in short form as follows...
1. The Word, "Make" ,is Absolutely Critical in Understanding the Meaning of the PORTION OF FULFILLMENT Required regarding the "Making" of Atonement and the "Making" of the End of Sin.
That word "Make" as used in Dan 9 :24 means "to Establish", Charge or Command and Decree.
The Establishing of or Making Provision for "Atonement" and the "End of Sin" By Decree, has already been fulfilled at the Cross Mr. B.

We need not take those Requirements of the 70 weeks all the way to the End of the Millennium. They will find their required fulfillment During the remainder of the 70 weeks, during the final 3.5 +75 days.

Mr Baldy wrote:In the aforementioned passage of Scripture we have Daniel asking "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" So the question ALSO becomes "What Wonders?" Well, Daniel is given a time, times and half a time which we know is 3.5 years - and the wonders that are associated with this timeframe are the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24. However..... it goes on to mention "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people" - ALL THESE EVENTS WILL BE COMPLETED.So, based on the Scriptural evidence we are provided in Revelation 20 - which shows the Millennial Reign of Christ; Satan bound for 1,000 years; The "Little Season" Satan deceives the Nations after his release from prison; and the Final Rebellion.... could this include what is mentioned to Daniel when he is told "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people?

I need to answer these parts tomorrow

Mr Baldy wrote:You have included this extra 75 days mentioned or at least a 45 day portion of Scripture in which you think God's Wrath is poured out. In our discussion, I have conceded that Christ's Ministry here on Earth possibly fulfilled 3.5 years of the remaining week of the 70 years. However, in looking at all of this as a whole, I believe that we still may be missing something.

Well, I look at it this way...those things we're all missing will be cleared up ...right after the Seventh Seal Opens
I don't think that will be so far from today...maybe just a few more months....really, not kidding.

Mr Baldy wrote:Also, by your very own prior comments, your Short/Trib Theory "may" have to be re-visited. You have previously mentioned that the Saints will have to endure the entire 3.5 years in which the Antichrist is given power, and the Body of Christ is "protected".

Where have I said the Body of Christ will be Protected? In some posts I've said that there Could Be Some Limited Protection, but for the most part the body of Christ will be Physically Overcome by the Loser (antichrist and his minions).

Mr Baldy wrote: However, you give no explanation as to those who will have survived the Great Tribulation; have become saved during this time period; and will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth.

Correct, I have not commented in that regard...but I think the answer lies with the 144,000 ....I will further hear from you on those things, as I think you have some reasonable possibilities mentioned thus far.

Mr Baldy wrote: Furthermore, your theory of Revelation 7 and the explanation thereof of has too many moving "parts" as it relates to the Bowls; Trumpets; and Seals - as I have not found a satisfactory answer as to why we see this "Multitude in Heaven" and the Great Tribulation is still going on - at least at this juncture.

I really don't understand what you're referring to by "too many moving parts"

Mr Baldy wrote:...................Bowls; Trumpets; and Seals - as I have not found a satisfactory answer as to why we see this "Multitude in Heaven" and the Great Tribulation is still going on - at least at this juncture.

Because the EVENTS OF the "Seals" WILL NOT BE Occurring in "REAL TIME" When the SIXTH SEAL OPENS.....It's An Overview, INTRO TO The GREATER and more Comprehensive and Complete Vision.

The "REAL TIME EVENTS" Occur when the TRUMPS BEGIN.

Blessings and love as always

shorttribber wrote:Can you see how the Sequence is Absolutely Not in Exact order as we think with our Western Thought?.....The Vision is recorded in a Very Hebraic Manner, Folded or Weaved Over Itself....Seals 4-6 are LAID OVER Trumps 1-7.

shorttribber wrote:The Seals of the scroll is a brief overview of the more detailed Trumpets and shows those who will "Stand" during the outpoured bowls. That IS How they are correctly reconciled Mr. B.

This so called "overlay" of Seals 4-6 meaning it's relationship with Trumps 1-7 is something that I'm personally not buying into. This was my reasoning for stating earlier that it must be reconciled with Scripture - which by the way, you have not proven. Revelation 8:1 implies that when the 7th Seal is reached; that is when the Trumpet Judgments are provided to 7 angels and they are subsequently blown in succession. Now, I agree with the fact that there will be those who "Stand" as that is obvious in Scripture.

shorttribber wrote:You have shown how Parts of the Traditional prewrath view is correct, yes, but the Wrath of God does not begin at the Trumps.

You will find NOWHERE where I indicated that the Wrath of God begins at the Trumps. I've explained in detail that I believe that the Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal (Revelation 6:17).

shorttribber wrote:Actually there's three as far as I know...the 2,300 days is the third one, and I have only one possible idea on that one, and it will send us down an impossible rabbit trail I'm sure.

Shorty, I wholehearted disagree that the 2,300 days relate to the LAST DAY - and this is my reasoning for mentioning that there are two very specific timeframes mentioned in Daniel 9 & Daniel 12. I personally believe that the 2,300 were already fulfilled - but you are right it will take us down a "rabbit trail" that can be debated at a later time.

shorttribber wrote:The requirements are meant to be understood in light of the 70 weeks Only. Now, I know that you see that those things can't be Completely Fulfilled until Death and Sin ENDS in REAL TIME.....FOREVER, right?

YES - Absolutely!

shorttribber wrote:We need not take those Requirements of the 70 weeks all the way to the End of the Millennium. They will find their required fulfillment During the remainder of the 70 weeks, during the final 3.5 +75 days.

Shorty, I am so glad you have made the aforementioned statement. Now this brings us back to the very possibility that you may believe that there is no Millennial Kingdom at all - right? This again is something that needs to be debated vigorously because I am not going to be dogmatic about my views. But, I am suggesting that neither you or I can have it both ways. There's either an Millennial Kingdom or there is NOT. At this point, I'm inclined to believe that based on Scripture there is indeed one - but then again, I'm not so sure. If there is indeed a Millennial Kingdom, then I stand wholeheartedly by what I have mentioned. In that 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is very, very, clear that Christ must Reign until He puts ALL enemies under His Feet - and the last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH. He then hands the Kingdom over to God the Father so that God is ALL in ALL. So this deal about the "Requirements" being fulfilled during the "remainder of the 70 weeks meaning the 3.5 + 75 days as you have mentioned it just doesn't add up. It has to include the Millennial Reign - and I believe as I have mentioned before, the Millennial Kingdom will be counted as a "single day" in the time specifications provided in Daniel 9 & 12.

Mr Baldy wrote:
However, you give no explanation as to those who will have survived the Great Tribulation; have become saved during this time period; and will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth.

shorttribber wrote:Correct, I have not commented in that regard...but I think the answer lies with the 144,000 ....I will further hear from you on those things, as I think you have some reasonable possibilities mentioned thus far.

Yes, we agree to a certain extent. However the 144,000 are SEALED - and Scripture really does not indicate what actually happens to them - and at this point, I can only surmise that they don't appear with the Great Multitude mentioned in Revelation 7. They, along with those mentioned in Zechariah 14 (Nations that survive) are those who I believe will be allowed in the Millennial Kingdom, and will actually repopulate the Earth during the Christ's Earth Reign.

shorttribber wrote:Because the EVENTS OF the "Seals" WILL NOT BE Occurring in "REAL TIME" When the SIXTH SEAL OPENS.....It's An Overview, INTRO TO The GREATER and more Comprehensive and Complete Vision. The "REAL TIME EVENTS" Occur when the TRUMPS BEGIN.

Hummmmm......don't know if I agree with that Shorty, so I will await your response - as well as your reply to this:

Mr Baldy wrote:
In the aforementioned passage of Scripture we have Daniel asking "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" So the question ALSO becomes "What Wonders?" Well, Daniel is given a time, times and half a time which we know is 3.5 years - and the wonders that are associated with this timeframe are the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24. However..... it goes on to mention "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people" - ALL THESE EVENTS WILL BE COMPLETED.So, based on the Scriptural evidence we are provided in Revelation 20 - which shows the Millennial Reign of Christ; Satan bound for 1,000 years; The "Little Season" Satan deceives the Nations after his release from prison; and the Final Rebellion.... could this include what is mentioned to Daniel when he is told "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people?

In closing, Shorty, and in your response my aforementioned statement - well...........your answer could actually open up some understanding as what the LAST DAY actually means.

Keep up the Great Work!

Mr Baldy wrote:This so called "overlay" of Seals 4-6 meaning it's relationship with Trumps 1-7 is something that I'm personally not buying into. This was my reasoning for stating earlier that it must be reconciled with Scripture - which by the way, you have not proven.

Correct, it can't be Absolutely Proven...we can only do our best to form an understanding based on what we have.
But, it can be considered a "Reasonable and REAL Possibility" IMO.

Mr Baldy wrote:You will find NOWHERE where I indicated that the Wrath of God begins at the Trumps. I've explained in detail that I believe that the Wrath of God begins at the 6th Seal (Revelation 6:17).

OK, that's true...I assumed that, based on the timing you were providing.

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, I wholehearted disagree that the 2,300 days relate to the LAST DAY - and this is my reasoning for mentioning that there are two very specific timeframes mentioned in Daniel 9 & Daniel 12. I personally believe that the 2,300 were already fulfilled - but you are right it will take us down a "rabbit trail" that can be debated at a later time.

Well, that's good

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:The requirements are meant to be understood in light of the 70 weeks Only. Now, I know that you see that those things can't be Completely Fulfilled until Death and Sin ENDS in REAL TIME.....FOREVER, right?
Mr. B. wrote: YES - Absolutely!

And again, I can't understand your reason for believing so when I've already provided the Meaning of the word "MAKE" in Dan. 9:24....a Complete END of SIN is Not a Requirement of Dan 9:24.

Mr Baldy wrote:This so called "overlay" of Seals 4-6 meaning it's relationship with Trumps 1-7 is something that I'm personally not buying into.

And why not? Have I not shown that the Scroll WILL OPEN? That there will be a more Detailed , or should I say "OPEN VISION" for the TIME THEN OCCURING? It's not reasonable to think the scroll would Not Open just because we are not told in plain writing exactly when. The scroll MUST be Opened AFTER the 7th Seal.....it's just a natural conclusion Mr. B. since we are told earlier in about five places in chapter five that the scroll should be opened at some point.
After the Seals are broken ,that is the most reasonable place, that's how ancient Scrolls are KEPT FROM OPENING, The Seals PREVENT IT FROM BEING OPENED. Once the Seals are Broken, It Opens.

Since I do restore historic Bibles and have had personal experience, regarding ancient scrolls, I do know that to be true.

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, I am so glad you have made the aforementioned statement. Now this brings us back to the very possibility that you may believe that there is no Millennial Kingdom at all - right? This again is something that needs to be debated vigorously because I am not going to be dogmatic about my views. But, I am suggesting that neither you or I can have it both ways. There's either an Millennial Kingdom or there is NOT. At this point, I'm inclined to believe that based on Scripture there is indeed one

I agree, I believe so too...but can't be absolutely certain...but close to it

Mr Baldy wrote:Mr Baldy wrote:In the aforementioned passage of Scripture we have Daniel asking "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" So the question ALSO becomes "What Wonders?" Well, Daniel is given a time, times and half a time which we know is 3.5 years - and the wonders that are associated with this timeframe are the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24. However..... it goes on to mention "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people" - ALL THESE EVENTS WILL BE COMPLETED.So, based on the Scriptural evidence we are provided in Revelation 20 - which shows the Millennial Reign of Christ; Satan bound for 1,000 years; The "Little Season" Satan deceives the Nations after his release from prison; and the Final Rebellion.... could this include what is mentioned to Daniel when he is told "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people?
In closing, Shorty, and in your response my aforementioned statement - well...........your answer could actually open up some understanding as what the LAST DAY actually means.

Still need more time on this one...maybe tomorrow....

Mr Baldy wrote:Mr Baldy wrote:In the aforementioned passage of Scripture we have Daniel asking "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" So the question ALSO becomes "What Wonders?" Well, Daniel is given a time, times and half a time which we know is 3.5 years - and the wonders that are associated with this timeframe are the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24.

Well Mr. B., I don't think it is necessary to include the requirements of Daniel 9:24. Not only do I think it unnecessary, but an improper hermeneutic of Rev 12.
And, i'll tell ya why.

It's true that those things that should be clearly associated with the 70th week, those things of Dan 9:24, will be occurring During That Time mentioned in Dan12.
But, and this is very important, those things that are spoken of During that Great Time That are Directly Referenced During That Specific Vision, should be the Only Wonders being directly spoken about.

Now i'll post the text.....
Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
....................................................................................................................................................

It has always been the most complicated portion of prophecy to me to try and understand the when
of vs 2, as it pertains to the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.

If we agree on a literal millennium, then we must say that the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected on the Same Day...that being that 1,000 year Day of the Lord; The righteous near a beginning portion of it ,and the unrighteous at the End portion of it.

The turning many to righteousness must be also included in Those Wonders. The only possibility it seems is that found in the words as follows......
"time, times, and an half"......."there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days"............"Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days".....and......."till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days".

The only possibility, as I said above is that the Last Day, the Day of the Lord.......IS.........The End, Drawn Out over the course of a thousand years. The whole of the Day of the Lord and the Millennium IS the End DAY, all of it.
That is what it seems to be in the way or thinking of God, all of it, as One END Day.

And I might add, there have been portions of it Already experienced at the First Coming of Christ.

And also, if you did look on it after this manner, that also would include the End of Sin, and those other items that you feel need to meet a complete fulfillment in Daniel 9:24.

That's about the best I can explain my thoughts on it right now I think.

Bless ya

Hello

If I am understanding you correctly, you are suggesting that all of the Last age for mankind will occur over a prolonged period around 1,000 plus years in length, (with respect to mankind's frame of reference for time), which also co-insides with the Last Day of the Lord with respect to God's time frame of reference.

Shalom

shorttribber wrote:Well Mr. B., I don't think it is necessary to include the requirements of Daniel 9:24. Not only do I think it unnecessary, but an improper hermeneutic of Rev 12.And, i'll tell ya why. It's true that those things that should be clearly associated with the 70th week, those things of Dan 9:24, will be occurring During That Time mentioned in Dan12.

Hi Shorty,

I believe that you may have contradicted yourself.......as further in your comments, you seem to be lining up with what I have been trying to convey this WHOLE TIME. The requirements are absolutely NECESSARY- hence the reason and/or purpose for the Millennial Reign of Christ.

shorttribber wrote:If we agree on a literal millennium, then we must say that the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected on the Same Day...that being that 1,000 year Day of the Lord; The righteous near a beginning portion of it ,and the unrighteous at the End portion of it.

Yes Absolutely! And also understand that there is a "series or order of resurrections during the Day of the Lord".

1) Raptured Saints
2) Two Witnesses
3) 144,000 at some point
4) Those who become saved during the Millennial Reign at some point
5) The Martyred Saints

shorttribber wrote:The turning many to righteousness must be also included in Those Wonders. The only possibility it seems is that found in the words as follows......"time, times, and an half"......."there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days"............"Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days".....and......."till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days".

Yes......but here is the part you are leaving out:

AND when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The AND is to include that portion of the prophecy - so in essence, it IS more than the 3.5 years that are mentioned. Hence the 75 day period that has not been explained.

shorttribber wrote:The only possibility, as I said above is that the Last Day, the Day of the Lord.......IS.........The End, Drawn Out over the course of a thousand years. The whole of the Day of the Lord and the Millennium IS the End DAY, all of it. That is what it seems to be in the way or thinking of God, all of it, as One END Day.

Shorty, my dear brother in Christ - now you are beginning to see what I've been trying to explain the entire time.

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:If we agree on a literal millennium, then we must say that the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected on the Same Day...that being that 1,000 year Day of the Lord; The righteous near a beginning portion of it ,and the unrighteous at the End portion of it.
Mr. B. wrote: Yes Absolutely! And also understand that there is a "series or order of resurrections during the Day of the Lord".
1) Raptured Saints
2) Two Witnesses
3) 144,000 at some point
4) Those who become saved during the Millennial Reign at some point
5) The Martyred Saints

That , I don't presently agree with, but i could be wrong and accept that order also as a Real Possibility.

Mr Baldy wrote:I believe that you may have contradicted yourself.......

No i haven't, i can explain how we can both be right on that...without any contradiction. In short, the language of the text only makes Necasary the requirements I've already mentioned.
But the kind of understanding we are speaking of regarding How the Last/End (1,000yr) Day can allow another aspect of fulfillment regarding Dan 9:24 requirements.
In even shorter words, it can be Both.

Mr Baldy wrote:The AND is to include that portion of the prophecy - so in essence, it IS more than the 3.5 years that are mentioned. Hence the 75 day period that has not been explained.

And "Those Days" will only be understood as we move closer to the end.....and the Seventh Seal Opens

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, my dear brother in Christ - now you are beginning to see what I've been trying to explain the entire time.

We Agree on More than we Disagree on in prophecy i think.

Hi Shorty,

I wanted to thank you for this study. As many Christians are getting caught up in politics, and who will become the next president of the united states - it has done my heart good to stay away from that nonsense and concentrate on God. After all it is He who is in control, regardless who gets elected into office. After all we live in a fallen world. Sinners will be sinners, and Saints will be saints. The things that you, me and others who may be reading either this thread or other things of God mentioned on this site - has certainly been edifying to me, and I hope to others. We are Aliens in this Fallen World - and we have to put our Trust in God, not look to man as a Savior.

shorttribber wrote: If we agree on a literal millennium, then we must say that the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected on the Same Day...that being that 1,000 year Day of the Lord; The righteous near a beginning portion of it ,and the unrighteous at the End portion of it.

Mr. B. wrote: Yes Absolutely! And also understand that there is a "series or order of resurrections during the Day of the Lord".

1) Raptured Saints
2) Two Witnesses
3) 144,000 at some point
4) Those who become saved during the Millennial Reign at some point
5) The Martyred Saints

shorttribber wrote:That , I don't presently agree with, but i could be wrong and accept that order also as a Real Possibility.

Shorty, I did not put the 5 aforementioned "order of resurrections" in any particular order. I put them there to illustrate that if you believe in that the Day of the Lord spans over a thousand year time period - and is considered the
"LAST DAY" - as I believe that you and I have come to an agreement on, then certainly these events will occur within that timeframe. I might add I still wholeheartedly believe that the "order of resurrections"; the 6 requirements, and the expanded 75 days are considered part of the final week of the 70 weeks that were determined as mentioned in the Book of Daniel (9 & 12). May I also add AGAIN that the "Little Season" is included in the final week as well.

Let me provide you with portions of Scripture to illustrate my point:

Zechariah 14:4-7 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4) In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5) You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! 6) In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7) For it will be a UNIQUE DAY which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

The aforementioned verses of Scripture show Christ Returning to Earth, where He subsequently stands on the Mount of Olives and it splits. The Raptured Saints are with Him at this point - but there are those who will flee by the valley that is created when the Mount of Olives splits as He takes His stand. Please take note that this is a UNIQUE DAY.

Now take a look at this:

Zechariah 14:9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

God Will Be King over All

9) And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.

And this:

Zechariah 14:16 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16) Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths

Now we know that at His Coming - He will separate the Sheep & Goats:

Matthew 25:31-33 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man Comes in His Glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

Ok...now I want to bring all this together and tie it all in - if you, and others who may be reading this have not already done so.

We have the Lord Returning to the Earth - Raptured Saints are with Him in glorified bodies. His feet touches the Mount of Olives which splits and creates a valley. There are those who will flee. There is a level of peace: Zechariah 14:11

People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

However, this is what occurs: Zechariah 14:13-14 -

13) It will come about in that day that a great panic from the Lord will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. 14) Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.

Now what I have described ALL occurs during that UNIQUE DAY. This is the Day of the Lord - and events that occurs during the Millennial Kingdom which is the LAST DAY.

In the illustration that I have presented by Scripture - we clearly have those who have survived the Great Tribulation; have become saved; and are allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom at the Sheep & Goats Judgment. As noted above even during the Millennial Reign SIN, DEATH, and Rebellion still occurs. So, therefore the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 have obviously not been fulfilled at this juncture - keep in mind Satan is bound in his prison (Revelation 20:2).

As I have mentioned, SIN, DEATH, and Rebellion will continue in the "Age to Come":

Matthew 12:32 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

32) Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the Age to Come.

So Matthew 12:32 - spoken by Jesus Himself, provides clear evidence that SIN will still be able to occur in the "Age to Come" which is the Millennial Kingdom.

During this UNIQUE DAY - or the LAST DAY as I have previously mentioned, there is an "Order of Resurrections" that occur as well. That was the point I was making about the previous 5 resurrections:

1) The Raptured Saints - LAST DAY
2) The Two Witnesses - LAST DAY
3) The Martyred Saints - LAST DAY
4) The 144, 000 at some point during this UNIQUE DAY - LAST DAY
5) Those who become saved during the Millennial Reign at some point but during this LAST DAY

So inclosing, this LAST DAY further encompasses the "Little Season" in which Satan has been let loose from his prison to deceive the Nations of the Earth (Revelation 20:7-11)

Revelation 20:7-11 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Satan Freed, Doomed

7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8) and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

From ALL of the aforementioned passages of Scripture we see the events as they occur during this LAST DAY.

Because when it ALL ENDS - we learn what Paul says:

[b]1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Order of Resurrection

20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21) For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24) Then comes the END, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27) For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28) When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be All in all.

I think that that about says it all.

Mr Baldy wrote:I wanted to thank you for this study. As many Christians are getting caught up in politics, and who will become the next president of the united states - it has done my heart good to stay away from that nonsense and concentrate on God. After all it is He who is in control, regardless who gets elected into office. After all we live in a fallen world. Sinners will be sinners, and Saints will be saints. The things that you, me and others who may be reading either this thread or other things of God mentioned on this site - has certainly been edifying to me, and I hope to others. We are Aliens in this Fallen World - and we have to put our Trust in God, not look to man as a Savior.

Thanx also to you for the same reasons

Mr Baldy wrote:I think that that about says it all.

yep, and as I said..we agree on much, and the other things we'll find out eventually too

Guess it would be good to think of a new topic.......

until then....