The LAST DAY

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:08 pm

Hi All....just wanted to have a Debate based on "Sound Doctrine" on the Last Day - WHAT it means, and what it includes.

Here are a few questions to consider:

1) When Jesus appears is it the Last Day? - meaning that's IT!
2) Is there a literal Millennial Kingdom? (Fact or Fiction "symbolic language") - Is there another World to come?
3) Is there only ONE general Resurrection which raises the Good & Evil dead at the Return of Christ?
4) Is the Sheep & Goats Judgment one and the same as the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ) ?
5) Is the Second Death consistent with a Resurrection with the Evil Dead?
6) At what point does the Heavens & Earth melt with fervent heat?
7) The "Last Day" - how does this fit in conjunction with the 1335 Days mentioned in Daniel 12:12?
8) How does the requirement of the yearly worship of Christ mentioned in Zechariah 14:16-20 fit into the Last Day?
9) How does Gog/Magog fit into the Last Day?
10) What does the Last Day mean?

I have mentioned 10 things on this particular Topic...... I hope that the questions that I have asked will edify the Body of Christ and certainly cause those who have similar or even the same questions to delve into Scripture so that it may bring Glory to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

These are very deep questions that should raise some curiosity to we who believe and further cause us to study this matter in order to bring Understanding.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:52 pm

That's so much to cover Mr. B.
It may be best to start a thread on each subject. As for me, my time is so short lately, just can't participate much :(
I'll try to comment when I'm able ok?
Great questions though
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:32 am

shorttribber wrote:That's so much to cover Mr. B.It may be best to start a thread on each subject.


Hi Shorty,

Actually there are a lot of questions - however they all tie in to one related event.... The LAST DAY.

I think I will start off with a few verses of Scripture to prompt the minds of those who may be interested in participating. There are so many theories out there as it relates to the LAST DAY, and all of them can't possibly be right. There is however an absolute Truth - and I hope that we can discover it together.

Here are some verses:

Daniel 12:1-4 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Time of the End

1) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3) Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4) But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase


Ok, now there are several things going on here. Question is, is it over a period of time, or all at once? My interpretation is that Michael the Archangel no longer protects - he is the restrainer that is removed. The AOD occurs - and the righteous are protected. There is a period of time going on here as it is the 3.5 year Tribulation Period. After that those who are asleep in the ground are resurrected - the righteous to eternal life and the unrighteous to everlasting contempt or death. This happens on the LAST DAY when Christ Returns.

Now Take a look at: John 5:25-29 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

25) Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Question is....is the aforementioned passages of Scripture speaking of Two Resurrections or ONE General Resurrection? Verse 25 says that those who "hear" the voice of Jesus will "live" - speaking of the dead. Verse 28 says "all" who are in the tombs will here His voice, Verse 29 says, and will come forth - some to life and some to judgement. Does this hour occur over a period of time - or at the same time? Is there an apparent contradiction?

Moving on to: John 6:35-39

35) Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36) But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37) All that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY.


And John 6:40

40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY.


The aforementioned verses of Scripture clearly describe the Righteous being "raised up" on the LAST DAY. Wonder what "Rapture" theory fits into that category? :mrgreen:

Now lets look at: Matthew 24:29-32 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Glorious Return

29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Many want to make this a "special event" for the elect that survive the Great Tribulation - but I see that indicated no where in Scripture. This is God's elect period. They are gathered together on the LAST DAY.

Here is another:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)


1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed


This is a lot to swallow......... I have provided a few Scriptures to learn if there is ONE General Resurrection or TWO which occur over a period of time. I have also provided Scripture that indicates we will be Gathered Together with Him on the LAST DAY and events that surround this Gathering.........I'll continue later.

I hope to start with the Millennial Kingdom - and learn if there really is one?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:11 am

Before I move on to explain whether or not there is indeed a Millennial Kingdom I want to explain this:

John 5:25-29

25) Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


At first, this appears to be a contradiction - however it is not. We must learn what "an hour" is. In verse 25 it states that "the dead will her the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

Where the apparent contradiction comes in is in verse 28 mentions: "Do not marvel at this for an hour is comin in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrecton of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Ok....if you'll notice - no where is it mentioned that the resurrection(s) in this "hour" occurs at the same time. So there are Two Resurrections. This "hour" spans over a period of time.

When Christ Returns those who have done good will be resurrected to Eternal Life - this occurs on the LAST DAY. This same "hour" is also synonymous with the "Day of the Lord" which is 1,000 years in duration - and is the LAST DAY.

So what happens to the wicked who are alive and the wicked who are already in the gave at His Return?

Lets first take a look at Matthew 13:24-30

Tares among Wheat

24) Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25) But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26) But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27) The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28) And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29) But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30) Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.


The "harvest is on the LAST DAY. If you'll notice, I have underlined "to burn them up" meaning the tares - or the wicked - but more on this later.

Now lets look at Matthew 13:40-43

40) So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41) The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42) and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43) Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.


In the aforementioned passage of Scripture I have underlined "the end of the age" as is too is synonymous and/or works in conjunction with the LAST DAY. What the aforementioned passage of Scripture is further describing is those who are ALIVE at the Return of Christ. It does not refer to those who are DEAD at this juncture. Those wicked who are thown into the furnace of fire is Hades - where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
This will be the holding cell until the GWTJ.

More later.


At
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:22 am

So far I agree (Possibly) with you Mr. B.......

Notice this part though too "an hour is coming and now is"

That Hour/Day of the Lord WAS Also In the Past....At Christ's FIRST Parousia.

The following is another interesting example to show a split in the Confirmation with many........beginning with the Anointing of Christ and the start of His public ministry


Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he.......... hath anointed......... me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the ...........acceptable.......... year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and ..........sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, ..........This day
.......... is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
24 And he said, Verily I say unto you,................ No prophet is accepted ...............in his own country.
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up ...........three years and six months,.................. when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto ..........Sarepta,........ [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving .............Naaman........... the Syrian.

Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the ........messenger of the covenant,........... whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand (See Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18) when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Why does Christ mention the three and a half years the heavens were ....shut up? A reference to the timespan of His first appearing.
Why does Christ mention Sarepta? it was a city known for it's refiner's of silver
Why does Christ mention Naaman? It means agreement or agreeable and also (pleasing or pleasant).......this is what is done when covenant is made....Naaman also agreed to not offer to Idols any longer but only sacrifice to the true God.


see the connection?


Part Two of That "Day" is soon Coming.

That's why I believe that "The Day of the Lord" will Commence Again at the Start Day of the Final 3.5 years (Great Trib)
When the Future AOD Begins, so does the "Day of the Lord/Last Day".....The "Last Day" actually being 1,000 years Long (Possibly...IF there remains a Literal 1,000 year reign)
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:55 am

shorttribber wrote:That's why I believe that "The Day of the Lord" will Commence Again at the Start Day of the Final 3.5 years (Great Trib)When the Future AOD Begins, so does the "Day of the Lord/Last Day".....The "Last Day" actually being 1,000 years Long (Possibly...IF there remains a Literal 1,000 year reign)


Hi Shorty,

I have learned not to look at a specific number of days as it relates to any time prior the Day of the Lord, as I view it as a "Unique Day" that is not measured by time as we understand it in human terms.

Take a look at this:

Zechariah 14:1-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)


1) Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2) For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3) Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4) In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5) You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! 6) In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7) For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. 8) And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.


And Verse 9:

9) And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.



I have mentioned the aforementioned passage to illustrate a point. The Day of the Lord begins AT His Coming. It is a literal 1,000 period that is specifically mentioned as ONE DAY. It is the LAST DAY.

Those mentioned in verse 5 appear to be the "Remnant" of Israel that will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies. There will be Nations that survive this battle that commences AT His Coming as well. They too will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies.

Verses 16-19 reads:

16) Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17) And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18) If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19) This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.


The aforementioned mentions the Millennial Kingdom - and the worship that will be required. What is not mentioned is that these mortals - both Jew and Gentile are Judged at the Sheep & Goats Judgment that happens on the LAST DAY.

Let's take a look at: Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


If you'll notice the Wicked DEAD are not mentioned - as there has been no resurrection for them YET. Those wicked who are ALIVE at His Coming and who "go away into eternal punishment" at this Sheep & Goats Judgment will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years - which by the way is still considered the LAST DAY. They will receive the penalty of the 2ND DEATH at the GWTJ.

Now the Apostle Peter has mentioned something about the Day of the Lord that most find confusing as well:

2 Peter 3:10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10) But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.


The aforementioned passage of Scripture requires some understanding. From what I have presented the Day of the Lord is a Unique Day that is a literal 1,000 year timeframe that commences AT HIS COMING - which is the LAST DAY. His Coming will be as a "thief" - however, we know that this utter destruction of the Heavens and Earth doesn't happen immediately - but yet on the LAST DAY.

If one will notice the Lake of Fire is not given a specific location in Scripture.

But lets take a look at these verses mentioned in the Book of Revelation chapter 20:

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.


14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the Second Death, the Lake of Fire. 15) And if ]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire.



Revelation 20:11 & 14 indicates that the Heavens & Earth will be destroyed by fire - not purged as many students of the Bible have believed. Also, the term "Second Death" is mentioned. The "Second Death" applies to ALL who are Wicked. This makes my case for those wicked who are alive at His Coming at the Sheep & Goats Judgment - they "go away" to await the GWTJ. As indicated in verse 11 "death and Hades" were thrown into the Lake of Fire.

So what is the Lake of Fire?

Well, I suggest that the Lake of Fire is none other than the EARTH itself that will be consumed and destroyed.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:20 am

Again, I think mostly we are in agreement, potential agreement.
There is something you've not addressed regarding that Day/Hour though, and that part Also makes that "Day/Hour" all the more "Unique".

That something or part is this....
shorttribber wrote:Notice this part though too "an hour is coming and now is "
That Hour/Day of the Lord WAS Also In the Past....At Christ's FIRST Parousia.


His first Coming was Part of "That Day/That Hour"

His Entire 3.5 year ministry was Part of That Day. And it is my belief that His Ministry By His Spirit, Given in His Full Measure to Bring the Saints in to the Full Measure and Stature of Christ will be Included in the Final 3.5.
And the ENTIRE Final 3.5 will Also be a Part of "That Day"

I could be wrong...but time will tell
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:30 pm

shorttribber wrote:Again, I think mostly we are in agreement, potential agreement. There is something you've not addressed regarding that Day/Hour though, and that part Also makes that "Day/Hour" all the more "Unique".


shorttribber wrote:His first Coming was Part of "That Day/That Hour" His Entire 3.5 year ministry was Part of That Day. And it is my belief that His Ministry By His Spirit, Given in His Full Measure to Bring the Saints in to the Full Measure and Stature of Christ will be Included in the Final 3.5.And the ENTIRE Final 3.5 will Also be a Part of "That Day"


Shorty,

I think you may be right. As I was doing research on your 3.5 year theory - I traced what you mentioned back to Isaiah 61.

Isaiah 61:1-2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2) To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord And the day of vengeance of our God


In Luke 4:18-21 Jesus quotes this very Scripture - however; He closes the Book before he finishes verse 2:

Luke 4:18-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed, 19) To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20) And He closed the Book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21) And He began to say to them, Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”


In learning that Jesus "Closed the Book" (of Isaiah) prior to finishing verse 2 of Isaiah 61:1-2 as He stood in the Synagogue on the Sabbath - I wondered if it had some prophetic meaning. The final words read: "And the Day of vengeance of our God" - which He did not read. I questioned why He did not read it? Why did He mention in Luke 4:21 that: "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." - when the entire verse He was quoting in Isaiah 61:1-2 had not been completed?

Well, I don't like "reading into" Scripture - but this certainly sends a very clear message, as God cannot LIE. It means that The Day of His vengeance HAS NOT been fulfilled.

Now the question becomes: When Jesus entered the Synagogue on this particular day - which we know was a Sabbath as mentioned in Luke 4:16; did His Public Ministry began at that point - AND did His Public Ministry begin the 70th Week?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:58 pm

Also, if what you are saying is correct in that Christ has confirmed this Covenant with Many - and there only remains 3.5 years then we must take a look at this:

Daniel 12:11-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11) From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12) How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!


Now, according to your theory if Christ stopped the regular sacrifice at His crucifixion - which would be day 1,260 (middle of the week) then at what point is God's Wrath poured out? There appears to be about 30 more days until day 1,290 - so what happens in this interim? And an additional 45 days until day 1,335.

Scripture is clear that the Antichrist persecutes the Church for 3.5 years - are you saying that the Wrath of God begins on day 1,290 assuming that the AOD is the starting point for the final 3.5 years?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:45 pm

So glad you've brought that out and the big picture is taking shape for you in this whole matter really.
The answer to the timing of God's wrath is that I just don't know on what day during that 75 years that God's wrath will be poured out (we are unable to know the exact day or hour).
It only is most evident that the saints will endure at Least the Full 3.5, that being at least the 1,260 days completely before God's Wrath is poured out.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:52 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Now the question becomes: When Jesus entered the Synagogue on this particular day - which we know was a Sabbath as mentioned in Luke 4:16; did His Public Ministry began at that point - AND did His Public Ministry begin the 70th Week?


Almost forgot to answer this part.

The best understanding, and most consistant with scripture is that The First Day of the Seventieth Week began at the Baptism of Christ.
That is the clearest timing Christ is mentioned as receiving His Anointing to Minister (by the Holy Spirit)
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:05 pm

shorttribber wrote:His Entire 3.5 year ministry was Part of That Day. And it is my belief that His Ministry By His Spirit, Given in His Full Measure to Bring the Saints in to the Full Measure and Stature of Christ will be Included in the Final 3.5.And the ENTIRE Final 3.5 will Also be a Part of "That Day"



shorttribber wrote:The best understanding, and most consistant with scripture is that The First Day of the Seventieth Week began at the Baptism of Christ. That is the clearest timing Christ is mentioned as receiving His Anointing to Minister (by the Holy Spirit)


Hi again Shorty,

As I have contemplated what you have mentioned - I believe your theory has to be dissected and explained a bit more.

I began to view the 70th week and it's relationship to the LAST DAY which includes the Day of the Lord. I also considered your aforementioned responses. I believe that Christ's 3.5 year Ministry was a part of the 70th Week; and began it REGARDLESS of whether or not it began at His Baptism, or the inception of His Public Ministry. Thank you for bringing this to my thought process.

However, I believe that the 70th week has been split in order for Prophecy to be Fulfilled in God's timing. Certain events had to take place in it's proper order. Jesus's 3.5 year Public Ministry; His Crucifixion; and His subsequent Resurrection was a part of the 70th week (as you have mentioned) - however, the Day of the Lord and/or the LAST DAY will close out the Final 3.5 years. This means that the LAST DAY is quite different than the "Last Week" as far as relational dynamics pertaining to the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24.

This is why I believe He chose NOT to quote Isaiah 61:2 in it's entirety; subsequently "closing the book" - as the Day of the Lord and/or LAST DAY was yet future. The LAST DAY will complete the 70th week.

Now let me explain why I believe that His 3.5 year Ministry may have been a part of the 70th week - and not "that day" or the Day of the Lord and/or LAST DAY.

First - Peter had mentioned the Day of the Lord as a future event in 2 Peter 3:10. This was AFTER Christ was crucified and AFTER His Resurrection. Second - Paul plainly mentions "Our Gathering unto Him" and "The Day of the Lord" as future as well in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

So, in closing - The Day of the Lord; Our Gathering unto Him (Rapture) - ALL occurs on the LAST DAY - which is THE remaining 3.5 year portion of the 70th week - Lasting up to 1,000 years. Please keep in mind that I believe that the A0D is the first day of the Final 3.5 years - and the LAST DAY ensues.

Our Gathering unto Him can occur anytime AFTER the A0D. This further meets the requirements of: "the man of sin being revealed and the falling way ensuing FIRST"; AND "no one knows the day nor the hour"; the "parable of the 10 virgins" - and the requirements of Revelation 7:9 - the "Great Multitude" which no one could number standing before the Throne of the Lamb.

What say ye?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:12 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:What say ye?

You're mostly right I think, with very few exceptions.

Remember the words of Christ.....
He said that Hour Was/Now Is and Is Yet to come, regarding that.....ie that Hour Was Occurring during his first Visitation/Appearing, and would Occur Also in the Future.

One other discrepancy remains also....when you said the following...
Mr Baldy wrote:Our Gathering unto Him can occur anytime AFTER the A0D.

We are told in many places that the "Saints/Elect" will indeed endure the Entire 3.5 years of Great Trib.

Mr Baldy wrote:................and the requirements of Revelation 7:9 - the "Great Multitude" which no one could number standing before the Throne of the Lamb.

I know that's a partial quote...just wanted to focus on this part only.

There is no conflict with shorttrib and this Group, this group is indeed (All the Elect of God/The Church/All of the Redeemed)

They are seen at that point in Johns vision to answer the Question asked in the last verse of the previous chapter....
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



who shall be able to stand?
Remember this is said in the following text...

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you,................ No prophet is accepted ...............in his own country.
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up ...........three years and six months,.................. when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto ..........Sarepta,........ [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving .............Naaman........... the Syrian.

Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the ........messenger of the covenant,........... whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand (See Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18) when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:


3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Why does Christ mention the three and a half years the heavens were ....shut up? A reference to the timespan of His first appearing.
Why does Christ mention Sarepta? it was a city known for it's refiner's of silver
Why does Christ mention Naaman? It means agreement or agreeable and also (pleasing or pleasant).......this is what is done when covenant is made
....Naaman also agreed to not offer to Idols any longer but only sacrifice to the true God.


see the connection?

Mr Baldy wrote:First - Peter had mentioned the Day of the Lord as a future event in 2 Peter 3:10. This was AFTER Christ was crucified and AFTER His Resurrection. Second - Paul plainly mentions "Our Gathering unto Him" and "The Day of the Lord" as future as well in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

Of course they are mentioning a future event......They ARE ALSO FUTURE, just as I said before.......

Just as the disciples could not understand Christ's words when he said that Elias had Already Come! And that the Hour "IS" (regarding the Resurrection of the Dead) and Will Also Occur in the future. The same thing applies in this case where "That Day" is spoken of as a Future Event/Time.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:51 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>

The aforementioned mentions the Millennial Kingdom - and the worship that will be required. What is not mentioned is that these mortals - both Jew and Gentile are Judged at the Sheep & Goats Judgment that happens on the LAST DAY.

Let's take a look at: Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


If you'll notice the Wicked DEAD are not mentioned - as there has been no resurrection for them YET. Those wicked who are ALIVE at His Coming and who "go away into eternal punishment" at this Sheep & Goats Judgment will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years - which by the way is still considered the LAST DAY. They will receive the penalty of the 2ND DEATH at the GWTJ.

<snip>


Mr Baldy, in the What you think (About news) section in the Britain votes to leave EU in historic vote I had posted the following which is very pertinent: -
Jay Ross wrote:I wonder if the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats is a reflection or expansion of the Ezekiel 34:17.

It comes after God has separated the flock from the other flock. i.e. those that CALL him LORD and those that do not Call Him Lord. Which is then followed by the separation of the Rams from the He Goats of those who call God, Lord. The Sheep are the righteous while the He Goats are the unrighteous ones who have a Hellenistic approach to their relationship with God where they are still self centered even though they acknowledge that God is the Lord.

Oh well, this is the final judgement when the righteous receive/inherit the whole earth and live with an in relationship with God.

It is the final act at the end of the Millennium Age such that the inheritance happens in the everlasting Age of Eternity.

<snip>


Ezekiel 34:17 reads: -
Ezekiel 34:17 “As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord God: Behold, I judge between sheep/{flock} and sheep/{flock}, between rams and male goats.
and shows that there are two times when God separates out people from each other.

In the first separation, the first flock, i.e. all the people who do not call God Lord, is separated from the second flock, i.e. all the people who do call God Lord. The first flock is judged and punished while the second flock of those who call God/Jesus Lord is separated into a flock of Rams and into a flock of male goats. The Matthew 25:31-46 parable is describing what occurs during the second separation and what the final outcome will be of Ezekiel 34:17.

As such your statement above: -
If you'll notice the Wicked DEAD are not mentioned - as there has been no resurrection for them YET. Those wicked who are ALIVE at His Coming and who "go away into eternal punishment" at this Sheep & Goats Judgment will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years - which by the way is still considered the LAST DAY. They will receive the penalty of the 2ND DEATH at the GWTJ.
is dependent on when you believe that the Matthew 25:31-46 parable occurs which in turn is dependent on when you believe that Christ comes in all of His Glory on the Clouds with all of the hosts of heaven. From what you have written, you believe that Christ's "second coming" will occur at the beginning of the Millennium Age. Sadly, this is not the case based on a proper study of scripture.

Isaiah 24:21-22 provides the following information: -

Isaiah 24:21-22

21
On that day the Lord will punish
the {wicked fallen}*host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
22
They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished.

* - My addition to the passage quoted based on a word study of "Host"


This time of judgement is expanded in the Book of Revelation when it talks about a war in Heaven between the wicked fallen heavenly Host and the righteous heavenly Hosts who are still Loyal to God.

Revelation 20 confirms that the wicked fallen heavenly Hosts, i.e. specifically Satan, is thrown down to the face of the earth and is then thrown into the Bottomless Pit to await the time of his judgement along with all of the other wicked fallen heaven host and the judged kings of the earth as recorded in the Isaiah 24:21-22 passage of scripture.

As such, the Matthew 25:31-46 parable occurs at the very end of the Millennium Age and is in fact a part of the Great White Throne Judgement that occurs as the last act of the Millennium Age.

I trust that this helps your study on the subject matter of the Last Day.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:15 am

shorttribber wrote:You're mostly right I think, with very few exceptions. Remember the words of Christ.....He said that Hour Was/Now Is and Is Yet to come, regarding that.....ie that Hour Was Occurring during his first Visitation/Appearing, and would Occur Also in the Future.


Shorty, I believe that we are in agreement in this. This is how I responded:

Mr Baldy wrote:However, I believe that the 70th week has been split in order for Prophecy to be Fulfilled in God's timing. Certain events had to take place in it's proper order. Jesus's 3.5 year Public Ministry; His Crucifixion; and His subsequent Resurrection was a part of the 70th week (as you have mentioned) - however, the Day of the Lord and/or the LAST DAY will close out the Final 3.5 years. This means that the LAST DAY is quite different than the "Last Week" as far as relational dynamics pertaining to the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24.


In essence, I believe that we are saying the same thing - just two different ways of saying it. Even the way you have described it shows that you believe that the 70th week is split as well. However, His first "Visitation/Appearing" could not have been the LAST DAY - yet is a part of the 70th week.

Mr Baldy wrote:
Our Gathering unto Him can occur anytime AFTER the A0D.


shorttribber wrote:We are told in many places that the "Saints/Elect" will indeed endure the Entire 3.5 years of Great Trib.


I agree with that. I was looking at "Our Gathering unto Him" from a Pre-Wrath perspective. In that Matthew 24:21-22 reads this:

21) For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22) Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


I could be wrong in my interpretation - as you have mentioned there are "many places" in Scripture that do indeed indicate that the "Saints/Elect" will endure the entire 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation. There very well could be a different interpretation for Matthew 24:21-22.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:56 am

Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, in the What you think (About news) section in the Britain votes to leave EU in historic vote


Hi Jay Ross,

I believe that Britain could be one of the "three horns" that will be subdued sometime in the near future.

Jay Ross wrote:In the first separation, the first flock, i.e. all the people who do not call God Lord, is separated from the second flock, i.e. all the people who do call God Lord. The first flock is judged and punished while the second flock of those who call God/Jesus Lord is separated into a flock of Rams and into a flock of male goats. The Matthew 25:31-46 parable is describing what occurs during the second separation and what the final outcome will be of Ezekiel 34:17.


Jay Ross - I disagree with your interpretation. Concerning the Sheep & Goats Judgment there is only ONE time in which this Judgment refers to a "SEPARATION" of the righteous & unrighteous - and this is AT HIS COMING. The passage of Ezekiel 34:17 is a reflection of that. The Sheep & Goats Judgment is quite different from the Great White Throne Judgment - which occurs at the end of the Millennial Kingdom and ONLY deals with the Wicked Dead. There is absolutely no indication in Scripture that the righteous are at the GWTJ.

Jay Ross wrote: From what you have written, you believe that Christ's "second coming" will occur at the beginning of the Millennium Age. Sadly, this is not the case based on a proper study of scripture.


Yes, I do believe the aforementioned - as it is mentioned in Matthew 25:31-33:

Matthew 25:31-33 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man COMES in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.


Now, for the sake of time I did not mention the entire events of the Sheep & Goats Judgment - only the beginning passages which clearly show that this event occurs at His Coming.

Jay Ross you have a very "different" way of interpreting Scripture. Actually Isaiah 24:21 confirms what happens AT HIS COMING as it relates to the Sheep & Goats Judgment mentioned in Matthew 25:41-46 -which deals with the WICKED.

Isaiah 24:21-22 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21) So it will happen in that day,That the Lord will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. 22) They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.


Mathew 25:41-46 reads:

Matthew 25:41-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Again, Isaiah 24:21-22 confirms that the Wicked will "go away into eternal punishment' - in essence placed in a prison (dungeon) at the Sheep & Goats Judgment when they are separated by Christ. They are punished "after many days" or AFTER the 1,000 year Reign of Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:49 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Even the way you have described it shows that you believe that the 70th week is split as well. However, His first "Visitation/Appearing" could not have been the LAST DAY - yet is a part of the 70th week.

Why , specifically do you believe that His First Visitation could not have been a Portion of the "Last Day"?
I just see no reason to reject that idea entirely. What are your reasons, specifically?

Mr Baldy wrote:I agree with that. I was looking at "Our Gathering unto Him" from a Pre-Wrath perspective. In that Matthew 24:21-22 reads this:

I realize that...but read the text again.....
Math 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days
should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What Days will be "THOSE DAYS"? We both know Mr. B., they are "Those Days" spoken of in Daniel 12 (Primarily), just as Christ said.
But Mr. B., we have discussed this in part already...."Those Days" are 1,335 days in length.....and they will be Shortened for the Elect. If we endure the full 3.5, then the days will be shortened by 75, and if we endure till the 1,290 then they will still be shortened by 45 days.
As I said, Any Day During that 75 day period, we should be delivered before God's Wrath is poured out.

Thus the name , shorttrib/prewrath.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:17 pm

Mr Baldy, you are welcome to interpret the scriptures as you wish, but Luke 14:32-32, speaks of Jesus dealing with the rebellion of the kings on the earth and the judgement of them as described in Isaiah 24:21-22 as well as the redeeming of the Nation of Israel as spoken about by Paul in Romans 11:25-27 when the heathen nations trampling the sanctuary, i.e. rebelling against God, abruptly comes to an end when the kings and their armies of those nations are judged and dispatched into the bottomless pit to await the time of their punishment in the distant future, i.e. over 1,000 years into the future.

The "people" and signs that you are looking for that herald the end of this age and the beginning of the Millennium Age are wicked fallen heavenly hosts and the signs that they are presently working. Presently, these demons are free to influence people in what they believe, think and do and is evident in the "spontaneous" reaction of the British people to the outcome of the vote to leave the EU. The reaction we are seeing is a demonic spiritual reaction of anger etc. that the people who had voted had decided to leave the EU.

This evil demonic reaction was also visible during the European Soccer Competition when the teams of their respective countries lost their games and violence prevailed on the streets of the cities where the respective people were staying or visiting.

Mr. baldy, you can flippantly dismiss what I post by stating, "Jay Ross you have a very "different" way of interpreting Scripture.," but does that make your understanding any more "right" than you claim it is? It does not. It just means that you believe that you are "right" but the veil still hinders many, and perhaps even me, from seeing what God has actually written within the scriptures.

Shalom
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:55 pm

shorttribber wrote:Why , specifically do you believe that His First Visitation could not have been a Portion of the "Last Day"?I just see no reason to reject that idea entirely. What are your reasons, specifically?


Hi Shorty,

Here are the specific reasons why I reject His First Visitation as a "Portion" of the LAST DAY.

1) The 70th week consists of 2 equal parts of 1,260 days. It has become apparent to me the Jesus did fulfill 3.5 years of the final week - however the 70th week in itself does not denote the LAST DAY, so in essence the LAST DAY has not occurred yet - as the 70th week is not complete.

2) The LAST DAY is synonymous with the Day of the Lord - in which we will be Gathered unto Him. Please take a look at what Paul specifically mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2:
1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect That The Day of the Lord has come.


You see the Day of the Lord - and His Coming are synonymous as mentioned in the aforementioned passage of Scripture.

3) Scripture is very clear that we shall be "raised up" on the LAST DAY. Please take a look at John 6:39-40:
39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY. 40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY.”


The LAST DAY is at the END of the 70th week - not THE 70th week. Again, I will concede that Jesus fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the 70th week - but not a "Portion" of the LAST DAY, as it has not arrived. They are two DIFFERENT Entities. When the 70th week ENDS the LAST DAY BEGINS.

The LAST DAY - which I believe is a literal 1,000 year DAY is on Day 2,520 of the 70th Week and Christ begins His Millennial Kingdom.

These are my specific reasons.......what say ye?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:30 pm

shorttribber wrote:Math 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.What Days will be "THOSE DAYS"? We both know Mr. B., they are "Those Days" spoken of in Daniel 12 (Primarily), just as Christ said.But Mr. B., we have discussed this in part already...."Those Days" are 1,335 days in length.....and they will be Shortened for the Elect. If we endure the full 3.5, then the days will be shortened by 75, and if we endure till the 1,290 then they will still be shortened by 45 days.As I said, Any Day During that 75 day period, we should be delivered before God's Wrath is poured out.


I would like to revisit this for a moment. What exactly is the correct interpretation for THOSE DAYS?

Does it mean each individual day in the 1,260 days as Daniel 12 first mentions "A time, times, and half a time" - which is equivalent to 3.5 years (1,260 days)? This is the specific time that the Church is persecuted - there is no "shortening" of days in this 3.5 year period for the Church.

Daniel 12:11-12 goes on to mentioned that from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the AOD is set up there will be 1,290 days - which is an additional 30 days from the time that the Church is persecuted. Verse 12 mentions that "Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1,335 days - which is an additional 45 days - for a total of 75 additional days.

Now, the question becomes if the Church is to be Raptured out anytime during this 75 Day period - what is the purpose of the "Blessing" mentioned for those who "waits, and comes to day 1,335"? I mean who are we speaking of here? Are these the folk who will become saved and allowed into the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies?

Let me also add that Scripture says:

Matthew 24:29-31 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Glorious Return

29) “But immediately after the Tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the SIGN of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other


If you are suggesting that when the "Sign" appears in the sky - which is "Immediately AFTER" the Tribulation period; that God's Wrath is poured out for 75 Days - as it does not mention specifically when Jesus actually Returns - then I think I get your meaning.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:05 pm

Mr Baldy wrote: however the 70th week in itself does not denote the LAST DAY, so in essence the LAST DAY has not occurred yet - as the 70th week is not complete.

I agree again in part. You are correct, the 70th week is Not the "Last Day" and the "Last Day" is not the 70th week.
But I hope to show, as best as I can, that the 70th week is Part of the "Last Day".

Time is short for me, but I will search out more scriptures to help strengthen that idea for your consideration over the next few days.

Mr Baldy wrote:2) The LAST DAY is synonymous with the Day of the Lord

Correct, I agree

Would you say and agree that when Chist's Kingdom Comes, the "Last Day" Also arrives Together?


That's a very important question.

Mr Baldy wrote: I will concede that Jesus fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the 70th week

:grin: :banana: :grin:
:banana: Then you have officially Become a shorttribber :banana:

Mr Baldy wrote: in the 1,260 days as Daniel 12 first mentions "A time, times, and half a time" - which is equivalent to 3.5 years (1,260 days)? This is the specific time that the Church is persecuted - there is no "shortening" of days in this 3.5 year period for the Church.

Correct, no shortening of the 3.5 (1,260 days)
Mr Baldy wrote:Now, the question becomes if the Church is to be Raptured out anytime during this 75 Day period - what is the purpose of the "Blessing" mentioned for those who "waits, and comes to day 1,335"? I mean who are we speaking of here? Are these the folk who will become saved and allowed into the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies?

Because we All, the Whole Body of God's Elect Has been ,Are presently, and Will Wait until That 1335th Day.....We All receive Our Rewards Together, All of us Together as Christ's Wrath is poured out on the Ungodly who have Defied Him throughout All History!
At that Final Day, we All become Triumphant With God and Share in His Eternal Victory...We All Are Blessed Together on That Final Day of God's Wrath.

Mr Baldy wrote:If you are suggesting that when the "Sign" appears in the sky - which is "Immediately AFTER" the Tribulation period; that God's Wrath is poured out for 75 Days - as it does not mention specifically when Jesus actually Returns - then I think I get your meaning.

:banana: :a3: :banana:
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:08 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Mr. baldy, you can flippantly dismiss what I post by stating, "Jay Ross you have a very "different" way of interpreting Scripture."


Jay Ross, I want to point something out to you that you wrote, and I know is in error according to Scripture:

Jay Ross wrote: The Matthew 25:31-46 parable is describing what occurs during the second separation


And this:

Jay Ross wrote:As such, the Matthew 25:31-46 parable occurs at the very end of the Millennium Age and is in fact a part of the Great White Throne Judgement that occurs as the last act of the Millennium Age.


Jay Ross - I challenge you to show me anywhere in Scripture where the Sheep & Goats Judgment - where the Righteous Living are "Separated" from the Unrighteous Living are either "a part of the Great White Throne Judgment or is one and the same as the GWTJ. Again, the Sheep and Goats Judgment occurs AT HIS Coming. This is in contrast to the GWTJ which happens at the END of the Millennial Kingdom.

Scripture is quite clear that these are TWO very Separate Judgments. You won't find anywhere that there is a Separation of the Righteous and Unrighteous at the GWTJ. The GWTJ further is for the WICKED DEAD only!

In closing, it's not that I am being "flippant" about your interpretation - it's just that I cannot not find it to be supported with Scripture.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:15 pm

shorttribber wrote:Would you say and agree that when Christ's Kingdom Comes, the "Last Day" Also arrives Together?


ABSOLUTELY!

shorttribber wrote:Because we All, the Whole Body of God's Elect Has been, Are presently, and Will Wait until That 1335th Day.....We All receive Our Rewards Together, All of us Together as Christ's Wrath is poured out on the Ungodly who have Defied Him throughout All History! At that Final Day, we All become Triumphant With God and Share in His Eternal Victory...We All Are Blessed Together on That Final Day of God's Wrath.


Now, that makes A LOT of sense to me! I have never quite looked at it that way. Shorty, I actually appreciate you mentioning that. I will add that to my study! Thanks brother!
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:28 pm

A couple scriptures for you look at closely...these may aid temporarily until I'm able to seek out more...

Again Mal 3:
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the
Day
of His Coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Hebrew 9
.................................but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared
to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(I have jumped to verse 28 for a reason)
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time
without sin unto salvation.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:20 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Now, that makes A LOT of sense to me! I have never quite looked at it that way. Shorty, I actually appreciate you mentioning that. I will add that to my study! Thanks brother!


Thanx brother, certainly builds up Christ and His body to appreciate the things we learn and share, again thanx for the encouragement.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:06 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:Would you say and agree that when Christ's Kingdom Comes, the "Last Day" Also arrives Together?
Mr B. writes:ABSOLUTELY!


Ok...then, according to the Following text, what would be the Time Frame spoken of? Is this not the Time Frame of the Beginning of the AOD. And would not the Casting out of satan(dragon)mark the Beginning of the great Trib?
That being the case, I know you agree in what I've just said.....look Closely at the following text then.

Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now
is come
salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Is this not very clear that "The Kingdom of God" Is Clearly Described as Present DURING the Great Trib? Not At the End of It?
Not Only During it, But at the Very Beginning of it?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:50 pm

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth
that he hath but a short time.


Why do you think he "Knoweth" he has a short time.

Can I answer this? he "Knoweth" it because he is Face to Face with The most Power Filled, Salvation Filled, Spirit Filled People of God he has ever contended against, and he knows the Kingdom of God Has Come, and the Power of his Christ will destroy the Remnants of the Shabby Little earthly kingdom he has long thought belongs to him.
he is going to Know that he has greatly underestimated Christ and His People!
he is given power to Overcome and Prevail against our Physical Bodies, but he Knows he needs to work fast because we will Receive the Kingdom that God's Word Declares Belongs to the Saints..............And We Will Possess The Kingdom!

He will know that the Last Day has just commenced again
and he is on God's Time!
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:27 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Mr. baldy, you can flippantly dismiss what I post by stating, "Jay Ross you have a very "different" way of interpreting Scripture."


Jay Ross, I want to point something out to you that you wrote, and I know is in error according to Scripture:

Jay Ross wrote: The Matthew 25:31-46 parable is describing what occurs during the second separation


And this:

Jay Ross wrote:As such, the Matthew 25:31-46 parable occurs at the very end of the Millennium Age and is in fact a part of the Great White Throne Judgement that occurs as the last act of the Millennium Age.


Jay Ross - I challenge you to show me anywhere in Scripture where the Sheep & Goats Judgment - where the Righteous Living are "Separated" from the Unrighteous Living are either "a part of the Great White Throne Judgment or is one and the same as the GWTJ. Again, the Sheep and Goats Judgment occurs AT HIS Coming. This is in contrast to the GWTJ which happens at the END of the Millennial Kingdom.

Scripture is quite clear that these are TWO very Separate Judgments. You won't find anywhere that there is a Separation of the Righteous and Unrighteous at the GWTJ. The GWTJ further is for the WICKED DEAD only!

In closing, it's not that I am being "flippant" about your interpretation - it's just that I cannot not find it to be supported with Scripture.


Mr. Baldy, I have been looking for scripture that supports your understanding for over 20 years but it does not exist.

That is because of the way in which you interpret scripture. You claim that you are right. But there is no justification found in scripture for your claims. It all comes down to your "method" of interpretation.

It is like looking at pictures of the same object taken from different locations, it is not always easy to form the understanding that you are looking at pictures of the same object. God's prophetic word is also like that. God repeatedly showed his Prophets what was to happen during the last day(s) and unless you can discern that some of the prophets' word pictures are of the same end time event, then you will claim that there are many more events than was/is prophetically revealed by God to His Prophets and as such create a distorted understanding of what God has revealed to his prophets.

Remember that Jeremiah had this problem during his day. He had the keys to understanding God's prophetic words to him and he recorded them for us to study and understand. Unless we have the same keys as Jeremiah or Daniel or John, then we are not going to make much sense of what they all wrote down for us to study. One of the keys that I found 16 plus years ago was a better understanding of the meaning of Strong's H1755 Root. This key I had discovered, opened up the OT prophecies to reveal what was contained within them. It showed that in the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, there is an approximate 2,000 year Gap between the existence of the third segment of the Statue, which prophetically lines with the time of the Greek Empires: - firstly Alexandra the great and then the Generals that took over his empire after he had died, and the fourth segment of the two legs. Because of this gap in time of the existence of a kingdom/nation in and over the land of the Chaldean's, the Roman empire is not aligned with the fourth segment in the Statue prophecy nor was the Roman Empire inhabiting the dominion/spiritual influence of the fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12 but rather came into existence because of the influence of one of the four princes/heads that is part of the third beast/fallen wicked heavenly host/demon. This is the same prince that Daniel refers to in Daniel 7:26b and the raging war that is mentioned in this verse segment is the war in heaven between God and His righteous Heavenly Host and Satan and his fallen wicked heavenly hosts as spoken about in the Book of Revelation, who, when they will be defeated, are then all kicked out of heaven down to the face of the earth to be imprisoned in the Abyss/bottomless pit at the end of this age. Daniel 7:10-12 speaks of this event as does Isaiah 24:21-22.

But this may be simply too much for you to understand.

Shalom
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:58 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
however the 70th week in itself does not denote the LAST DAY, so in essence the LAST DAY has not occurred yet - as the 70th week is not complete.


shorttribber wrote:I agree again in part. You are correct, the 70th week is Not the "Last Day" and the "Last Day" is not the 70th week. But I hope to show, as best as I can, that the 70th week is Part of the "Last Day".


shorttribber wrote:Rev 12 - 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Is this not very clear that "The Kingdom of God" Is Clearly Described as Present DURING the Great Trib? Not At the End of It? Not Only During it, But at the Very Beginning of it?



Hi Shorty,

Due to limited time this morning I have posted the aforementioned comments which I found to be very important as far as the continuing edification of this topic. You raise a very interesting point of view - I however, don't completely agree with it, and I will explain when I return home this afternoon. But based on how you have answered my question, and the Scripture you have provided in Revelation 12:10 - I challenge you to think about how you answered me and what you have posted in Revelation 12:10.

My challenge relates to your response - in that it has everything to do with the timing of the "accuser" being cast down.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:15 am

Jay Ross wrote:Mr. Baldy, I have been looking for scripture that supports your understanding for over 20 years but it does not exist.


Jay Ross wrote:But this may be simply too much for you to understand.


Hi Jay Ross,

May God bless you brother.

For the record, I have not totally disregarded what you have mentioned. As I've stated before, your method of interpretation leaves a lot to be desired. This has been mentioned to you before by fellow members of this board. You have a tendency to "read into" Scripture - and add your own understanding to the Word of God.

In your previous responses as it relates to this post - some of it is indeed factual. Where I humbly disagree with you is your understanding of the Millennial Kingdom; the Judgment; and the subsequent timing thereof. You "appear" to be one dimensional as far as this topic is concerned - in that you want to relate most of what you do understand to the "Spiritual World" - which you cannot, and will not see in from the Book of Revelation, which is Highly Symbolic.

One of the main errors you possess in your understanding is that you cannot, nor have you ever explained how you can have a Millennial Kingdom with only those who have been Resurrected to eternal life - then have a subsequent GWTJ 1,000 years later. There would be no point for this. There is either a Millennial Kingdom in which those are given to repopulate the Earth in mortal bodies - or there is NOT a Millennial Kingdom, and it ALL Ends at His Appearing. You can't have it both ways.

Nevertheless, I will not feed into your insults as it certainly does not edify the Body of Christ. If you would like continue debating this topic, then by all means lets do so - but in such a way as to build up, not attempt to tear down with insults.

May God bless your day!
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:22 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:My challenge relates to your response - in that it has everything to do with the timing of the "accuser" being cast down.

According to the text, the casting out of the Accuser should coincide exactly with the First day of the Great Trib and the AOD.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:25 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>

One of the main errors you possess in your understanding is that you cannot, nor have you ever explained how you can have a Millennial Kingdom with only those who have been Resurrected to eternal life - then have a subsequent GWTJ 1,000 years later. There would be no point for this. There is either a Millennial Kingdom in which those are given to repopulate the Earth in mortal bodies - or there is NOT a Millennial Kingdom, and it ALL Ends at His Appearing. You can't have it both ways.

<snip>


Mr. Baldy, you indeed have not understood my position at all. During the Millennium Age, right from its beginning, the fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and Satan have their ability to have influence over the people of the earth stopped. Christ as the Son of Man is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth who should worship Him. All the living people on the face of the earth enter into the Millennium Kingdom of Christ, both the righteous and the unrighteous. The start of the Millennium Age does not herald the "Second Coming of Christ" when the Sheep are separated from the Goats. In Ezekiel 34:17 we are told of a separation of the flock who call Jesus/God Lord from the flock who do not call Jesus/God Lord. This initial separation of one flock from the other flock occurs at the end of the Millennium age just before the Sheep and Goat Judgement. This separation is of the living at that time and the people who have been resurrected for judgement as recorded in Daniel 12. The people of the Flock that do not call Jesus/God Lord are judged and dispatched into the lake of fire. Then the second separation of the flock of sheep from the flock of Goats will occur. Both the Sheep and the Goat call Jesus/God Lord but the Goats do not have a heart after God so they too will be judged and deemed to be unrighteous and they will be dispatched into the Lake of fire which is the Second Death.

Mr Baldy, you have Christ's Second coming on the Clouds happening at the beginning of the Millennium Age whereas I have Christ's Second coming in the Clouds with all of the righteous heavenly hosts at the end of the Millennium Age.

That is our main difference in our respective understanding.

You claim that your understanding is supported by scripture but in reality it is only supported by your interpretation of what is conveyed in the scriptures.

I am not looking for a Warrior King. I am looking to discover what God's heart actually is all about and to renew my mind such that it too reflect God's heart in my actions, thoughts and deeds.

I am having too much difficulty find scriptural support for your understanding.

Shalom
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:22 pm

shorttribber wrote:Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Is this not very clear that "The Kingdom of God" Is Clearly Described as Present DURING the Great Trib? Not At the End of It? Not Only During it, But at the Very Beginning of it?


Hi Shorty,

Just want to pick back up on your aforementioned question and Revelation 12:10 that you have submitted as evidence to support that you believe the LAST DAY began at Jesus' Baptism - before things get too far off target here.

You also mentioned this:

shorttribber wrote:Would you say and agree that when Christ's Kingdom Comes, the "Last Day" Also arrives Together?


And this:

shorttribber wrote:Remember the words of Christ.....He said that Hour Was/Now Is and Is Yet to come, regarding that.....ie that Hour Was Occurring during his first Visitation/Appearing, and would Occur Also in the Future.


Ok, I see how you connected the timing of Christ's first visitation with Revelation 12:10 and the verbiage mentioned in the Scriptures you presented thereof - and I have considered your argument. However, I disagree with it being a "portion" as you have mentioned of the LAST DAY. What it is at best is a "portion" of the 70th week.

My position is that the LAST DAY occurs as the Millennial Kingdom begins. Now let me explain as this goes back to the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24:

Daniel 9:24 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city:

1) To finish the transgression,
2) To make an end of sin
3) To make atonement for iniquity
4) To bring in everlasting righteousness
5) To seal up vision and prophecy
6) To anoint the most holy place.


Now, Christ's baptism may have been the beginning of the 70th week - or the day He entered the Synagogue and began His Public Ministry (Luke 4:16-21). This in itself does not indicate that it is the LAST DAY. I have conceded as previously mentioned that I believe that His Public Ministry did begin the 70th week - however this would only fulfil the first 3 of the 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24; subsequently making it still very much a part of the 70th week - and NOT synonymous with the LAST DAY.

As far as what you have provided in Revelation 12:10 - this too I believe as far as it mentioning "the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come" - is metaphorical language to illustrate what WILL happen on the LAST DAY. Furthermore, this is when Satan has been cast out of Heaven - which begins at the AOD - and starts the Great Tribulation as you have mentioned. This again, is NOT the LAST DAY - but yet still a part of the 70th week.

The LAST DAY begins at His Coming. Then the remainder of the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 will come to fruition.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:14 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Ok, I see how you connected the timing of Christ's first visitation with Revelation 12:10 and the verbiage mentioned in the Scriptures you presented thereof - and I have considered your argument. However, I disagree with it being a "portion" as you have mentioned of the LAST DAY. What it is at best is a "portion" of the 70th week.

As far as knowing that the 70th week is Part of the Last day, I can't be as sure of it. There is evidence of it, and that's as best I can say....it can't be proven or disproven I don't think.

There is so much evidence of Christ fulfilling the first part of the 70th week however that I do feel it is arguably a real and proven fact. Although with many people still disputing it makes it not Absolutely Proven.

Mr Baldy wrote:My position is that the LAST DAY occurs as the Millennial Kingdom begins.

I realize that, but based upon what set of scriptures? Or based on what Single scripture?

Mr Baldy wrote:My position is that the LAST DAY occurs as the Millennial Kingdom begins. Now let me explain as this goes back to the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24:

How do these requirements Limit the Beginning of the "Last Day" to the End of the 70th week?
Mr Baldy wrote:Now, Christ's baptism may have been the beginning of the 70th week - or the day He entered the Synagogue and began His Public Ministry (Luke 4:16-21). This in itself does not indicate that it is the LAST DAY.

True, but it does offer a certain amount of evidence for it I think. But by itself it is not Absolute Proof.
Mr Baldy wrote: I have conceded as previously mentioned that I believe that His Public Ministry did begin the 70th week - however this would only fulfil the first 3 of the 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24; subsequently making it still very much a part of the 70th week - and NOT synonymous with the LAST DAY.

It is a good concession you've made, and I have already admitted that the "Last Day" and the "70th week are not to be understood as synonymous. But that also does not exclude that they can have times that overlay or Portioned Together.

Please keep in mind the "Unique" Elements that Could Be Aspects Of the "Last Day" that many have not given a great deal of consideration.

Mr Baldy wrote:As far as what you have provided in Revelation 12:10 - this too I believe as far as it mentioning "the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come" - is metaphorical language to illustrate what WILL happen on the LAST DAY.


There really is not a better argument that you can make otherwise, I know. That you can not receive those very plain words as Literal is the only choice you have. But I receive the word "Now" very literally, and I see no reason to take it any other way.

Mr Baldy wrote:The LAST DAY begins at His Coming.

Again, there is not any scriptures I know of that require that timing.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:19 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Mr. Baldy, you indeed have not understood my position at all.


Hi Jay Ross,

Well, lets take a look at what you are presenting.

Jay Ross wrote:During the Millennium Age, right from its beginning, the fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and Satan have their ability to have influence over the people of the earth stopped.


I agree with this.

Jay Ross wrote: Christ as the Son of Man is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth who should worship Him.


This has ALREADY been completed:
Matthew 28:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18) And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.


Jay Ross wrote: All the living people on the face of the earth enter into the Millennium Kingdom of Christ, both the righteous and the unrighteous.


You are absolutely WRONG here - and furthermore, I would like any Scriptural evidence you can provide to support this.

Jay Ross wrote: The start of the Millennium Age does not herald the "Second Coming of Christ" when the Sheep are separated from the Goats.


Again, you are WRONG. Revelation 19:11-21 clearly shows what happens prior to the Millennial Kingdom:

Revelation 19:11-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Coming of Christ

11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12) His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13) He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14) And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15) From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16) And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” 17) Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid heaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18) so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” 19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.


The aforementioned passages of Scripture Clearly describe what will happen AT HIS COMING. This is PRIOR to His Millennial Reign.

Furthermore this is what Revelation 20:1-6 states:

Revelation 20:1-6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Satan Bound

1) Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [in his hand. 2) And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3) and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. 4) Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Matthew 25:31-46 works in harmony with the aforementioned passages of Scripture in Revelation:

Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”



This is the Sheep & Goats Judgment - that CLEARLY occurs AT HIS COMING - and/or at the very onset of His Millennial Kingdom. I cannot for the life of me understand why you continue not to see this. NONE of the WICKED alive or dead are allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom. There will be those alive who become saved during the Great Tribulation will be allowed to enter into mortal bodies - however they are SAVED. They are those nations that survived as mentioned in Zechariah 14:16. So the Millennial Kingdom will only consist of the Righteous - at least until those in mortal bodies begin to have offspring.

Jay Ross wrote: In Ezekiel 34:17 we are told of a separation of the flock who call Jesus/God Lord from the flock who do not call Jesus/God Lord.


Jay Ross - Ezekiel 34:17 was a "foreshadow" of what is to come as depicted in Matthew 25:31 - which happens AT HIS COMING.

Jay Ross wrote: This initial separation of one flock from the other flock occurs at the end of the Millennium age just before the Sheep and Goat Judgement.


You will find NO such Judgment at the end of the Millennial Age - if so, please prove it. Scripture is clear that the GWTJ occurs at the END of the Millennial Kingdom and ONLY the WICKED DEAD are present. There is absolutely no separation mentioned there at all.

Jay Ross wrote:Then the second separation of the flock of sheep from the flock of Goats will occur.


AGAIN, you will find NO WHERE in Scripture that shows where there are Two Separations between the Sheep & Goats.

Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, you have Christ's Second coming on the Clouds happening at the beginning of the Millennium Age whereas I have Christ's Second coming in the Clouds with all of the righteous heavenly hosts at the end of the Millennium Age.


Jay Ross - I have Christ Second Coming on the Clouds happening at the beginning of the Millennium Age - because that's what Scripture says will happen - and I have provided the aforementioned passages of Scripture to prove my case. Since you have Christ Second Coming occurring at the End of the Millennial Age - then who is ruling in the Millennial Kingdom? What would be the purpose for a Millennial Kingdom in your scenario? Why not just have it all END when He Appears?

In closing, you have provided a WHOLE lot of your thoughts and ideas - which I respect, but greatly disagree with - and only one passage of Scripture in which you base your interpretation on - that being Ezekiel 34:17. I would be careful about trying to build and entire doctrine on one part of Scripture, which by the way I feel you have not interpreted correctly.

In the end: Please BACK UP what you are saying with SCRIPTURE.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:41 pm

Hi Shorty,

I didn't realize you were present posting as I was putting forth information as well. But I believe that most of what you have asked has been answered. However, I believe with the exception of this;

Mr Baldy wrote:
The LAST DAY begins at His Coming.


You responded:

shorttribber wrote:Again, there is not any scriptures I know of that require that timing.


Shorty - yes there is.......

First Jesus plainly states over and over that He will "raise up" His Sheep on the LAST DAY.

39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY. 40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY.”


The aforementioned passage of Scripture works in direct harmony and in conjunction with:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1)Now we request you, brethren, with regard to The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that The Day of the Lord has come.


The Coming of the Lord and our Gathering together to HIM - happens on the same DAY. Jesus plainly says that HE will raise us up on THE LAST DAY.

Doesn't get any clearer than that.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:18 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:First Jesus plainly states over and over that He will "raise up" His Sheep on the LAST DAY.

Ok, does it say that the resurrection will occur on the First Day (24 hour day as we know it) OF the "Last Day" (1,000 year Long Day)?
No, is does not.

So, as you've mentioned before regarding Christ in the synagogue , this alone is not proof.

Mr Baldy wrote:The Coming of the Lord and our Gathering together to HIM - happens on the same DAY. Jesus plainly says that HE will raise us up on the THE LAST DAY


Yes I agree that the coming and gathering occur on the "Last Day". What the scripture does not say is that the Physical Coming of Christ and our Gathering Together to Him in the Clouds will occur or Must occur on the "First Day" (in the 24 Hour realm we live in) OF the Last Day (1,000 Year Day of the Lord).

The Uniqueness of the "Last Day" is such that it is not essential that the things you're suggesting Must occur on the Very First Day or the Very Beginning of the "Last Day/Day of the Lord".

As I said, I will be putting some notes together that help to show that the "Day of the Lord" did in fact Include the First Part of the 70th week, at Christ's First Appearance. And that the great trib will in Fact be a Part Of the "Last Day/Day of the Lord".

I know that until I put those things together and post them we must just kind of be in a bit of a Gracious Stalemate in our conversation.
It truly is a conversation I'm enjoying, and I believe you feel the same.
:blessyou:

I'll continue to post though while I'm working on those notes....sure love you brother :hugs:


I edited Hour in above....sorry for any confusion in that :mrgreen:
Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:33 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Mr. Baldy, you indeed have not understood my position at all.


Hi Jay Ross,

<snip>

Jay Ross wrote: Christ as the Son of Man is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth who should worship Him.


This has ALREADY been completed:
Matthew 28:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18) And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.



Daniel 7:10-14 tells us that after the Dominions of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-8 is removed, Christ who is the Son of Man will then receive His dominion over all of the people of the earth who should worship Him.

Here is the recorded sequences of the events that take place during this heavenly vision: -

Daniel 7:11-14: - 11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
NKJV



Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote: All the living people on the face of the earth enter into the Millennium Kingdom of Christ, both the righteous and the unrighteous.


You are absolutely WRONG here - and furthermore, I would like any Scriptural evidence you can provide to support this.

Jay Ross wrote: The start of the Millennium Age does not herald the "Second Coming of Christ" when the Sheep are separated from the Goats.


Again, you are WRONG. Revelation 19:11-21 clearly shows what happens prior to the Millennial Kingdom:

<snip>

The aforementioned passages of Scripture Clearly describe what will happen AT HIS COMING. This is PRIOR to His Millennial Reign.


If you study the Revelation 19 chapter carefully you will see that it spans the extent of the Millennium Age and the beginning of this chapter describes the same event as is recorded in Daniel 7: 9-10.

Daniel 9 speaks of events that are associated with the beasts of Daniel 7 from the time that they are judged and thrown into the Abyss/Bottomless pit up and until they are finally punished at the end of the Millennium Age as is described in Daniel 7:19-28 when the earth is given to the people of the Saints of the Most High. There is a gap of 1,000 years between the events of Daniel 7:1-12 and before Daniel 7:19- 28 begins.


Mr Baldy wrote:Furthermore this is what Revelation 20:1-6 states:

<snip>

Matthew 25:31-46 works in harmony with the aforementioned passages of Scripture in Revelation:

<snip>

This is the Sheep & Goats Judgment - that CLEARLY occurs AT HIS COMING - and/or at the very onset of His Millennial Kingdom.


Mr. Baldy that is your understanding, but the above scriptures, if understood in the order as the events unfold, provides a very different picture.

Revelation 20:1-6 is dealing only with what Satan is doing. It is like reading a novel; the time frames of the story as they are revealed are not sequential but they move back and forth in time. Revelation 20:1 is speaking of the same time that the Beasts in heaven as well as all of the wicked heavenly hosts are put into the Abyss as is also described in Isaiah 24:21-22.

Mr Baldy wrote:I cannot for the life of me understand why you continue not to see this. NONE of the WICKED alive or dead are allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom. There will be those alive who become saved during the Great Tribulation will be allowed to enter into mortal bodies - however they are SAVED. They are those nations that survived as mentioned in Zechariah 14:16. So the Millennial Kingdom will only consist of the Righteous - at least until those in mortal bodies begin to have offspring.


That is a construct that must be created to provide a plausible explanation of what will happen in your understanding of the end time events

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote: In Ezekiel 34:17 we are told of a separation of the flock who call Jesus/God Lord from the flock who do not call Jesus/God Lord.


Jay Ross - Ezekiel 34:17 was a "foreshadow" of what is to come as depicted in Matthew 25:31 - which happens AT HIS COMING.

Jay Ross wrote: This initial separation of one flock from the other flock occurs at the end of the Millennium age just before the Sheep and Goat Judgement.


You will find NO such Judgment at the end of the Millennial Age - if so, please prove it. Scripture is clear that the GWTJ occurs at the END of the Millennial Kingdom and ONLY the WICKED DEAD are present. There is absolutely no separation mentioned there at all.

Jay Ross wrote:Then the second separation of the flock of sheep from the flock of Goats will occur.


AGAIN, you will find NO WHERE in Scripture that shows where there are Two Separations between the Sheep & Goats.


I agree with you, there will not be two judgements of the Sheep and the Goats, but Christ’s account of this judgement can only occur at the end of the millennium Age when Christ comes on the clouds. Daniel 12 also tells us that this will occur.


Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>

In closing, you have provided a WHOLE lot of your thoughts and ideas - which I respect, but greatly disagree with - and only one passage of Scripture in which you base your interpretation on - that being Ezekiel 34:17. I would be careful about trying to build and entire doctrine on one part of Scripture, which by the way I feel you have not interpreted correctly.

In the end: Please BACK UP what you are saying with SCRIPTURE.


Mr Baldy, I agree, we should be able to back up what we post with Scripture but the issue becomes how we interpret the same passage of scripture, you have your understanding of how that scripture should be understood based on your precepts whereas I see a very different understanding unfolding from the same scriptural passage.

I also agree that we should not build an entire doctrine on one part of scripture. Yours is built on an understanding that the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are not spiritual entities, whereas I hold to the view that they are spiritual entities and Paul in Ephesians 6:12 suggest that they are: -

Ephesians 6:12 – For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
NKJV


This passage is also in agreement with Isaiah 24:21-22.

Mr Baldy, we are disagreeing on the respective interpretation of scripture and only time will prove who will be ultimately right. We may both be wrong however, the next 20 years or so may reveal what the outcome will be and show who was closest to the truth.

Shalom
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:42 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
First Jesus plainly states over and over that He will "raise up" His Sheep on the LAST DAY.


shorttribber wrote:Ok, does it say that the resurrection will occur on the First Day (24 hour day as we know it) OF the "Last Day" (1,000 year Long Day)?No, is does not.


Mr Baldy wrote:
The Coming of the Lord and our Gathering together to HIM - happens on the same DAY. Jesus plainly says that HE will raise us up on the THE LAST DAY


shorttribber wrote:Yes I agree that the coming and gathering occur on the "Last Day". What the scripture does not say is that the Physical Coming of Christ and our Gathering Together to Him in the Clouds will occur or Must occur on the "First Day" (in the 24 Hour realm we live in) OF the Last Day (1,000 Year Day of the Lord).


shorttribber wrote:The Uniqueness of the "Last Day" is such that it is not essential that the things you're suggesting Must occur on the Very First Day or the Very Beginning of the "Last Day/Day of the Lord".



Hi Shorty,

Just revisiting what we previously have been debating. You raise a very interesting point in your aforementioned responses. However, again I will refer you back to Daniel 9:24. And I must qualify how I view the LAST DAY.

This Final Week as it relates to the LAST DAY is actually TWO 3.5 year timeframes or 1,260 days each bringing it to a total of 2,520 days. This 2,520 day period = 7 years with each year equaling 360 days.

Now, according to the 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24 - as I have mentioned previously three of the six have been fulfilled - and the remaining requirement (4-6) will not be completed until He has REIGNED and destroyed the last enemy - which is DEATH.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Last Enemy Destroyed

20) But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is DEATH. 27) For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28) Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be ALL in ALL.



So.....the LAST DAY is day 2,520. The "UNIQUENESS" of this day is that it will last for 1,000 years, without it being counted as a 24 hour period as we know it. Meaning it doesn't start over as if it were day one of the Millennial Kingdom - as it is the DAY OF THE LORD. A single continuous time period....it is the LAST DAY. After all Peter plainly stated that a day with the Lord is as a 1,000 years.

2 Peter 3:8 - King James Version (KJV)

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


Therefore your point about the things I have mentioned occurring on the "First Day or the Very Beginning of the LAST DAY - SHOULD provide the answer to your question.

shorttribber wrote:As I said, I will be putting some notes together that help to show that the "Day of the Lord" did in fact Include the First Part of the 70th week, at Christ's First Appearance. And that the great trib will in Fact be a Part Of the "Last Day/Day of the Lord".


I'm looking forward to it!

shorttribber wrote:It truly is a conversation I'm enjoying, and I believe you feel the same.


ABSOLUTELY!
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:28 pm

Hi Jay Ross,

As I begin my rebuttal to you, I must say that we have two very different ways of interpreting Scripture. As we continue, I will attempt to show you plainly what Scripture is saying - without "reading into" it.

Jay Ross wrote:I agree with you, there will not be two judgements of the Sheep and the Goats, but Christ’s account of this judgement can only occur at the end of the millennium Age when Christ comes on the clouds. Daniel 12 also tells us that this will occur.


In your aforementioned statement - you say: "Christ's account of this Judgment can only occur at the end of the millennium Age when Christ comes on the clouds."

Well, first of all I've already shown you that His Coming occurs to the EARTH as mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46 when the Sheep & Goats Judgment commences. You are clearly either getting the Sheep & Goats Judgment confused with the GWTJ; totally dismissing it all together - or you are just flat out not recognizing that these are indeed TWO entirely different Judgments.

Secondly, there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that describes Christ coming "on the clouds" "at the end of the millennium Age" age you have mentioned. Now, lets do take a look at Revelation 20:11-15 which describes the GWTJ and occurs AFTER the Millennial Kingdom:

Revelation 20:11-15 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Great White Throne Judgment

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12) And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Now I have emboldened parts of this particular passage of Scripture to clearly demonstrate that you have been in error in your interpretation. This Jay Ross is the GWTJ occurring after the Millennial Kingdom has finished - which is very much in contrast to the Sheep & Goats Judgment that occurs AT HIS COMING. In the aforementioned, you don't see Jesus coming in the clouds; nor do you see Him separating the Righteous and the Unrighteous. This is a JUDGEMENT for the WICKED DEAD - and them ALONE - as it is the SECOND DEATH.

Now lets take a look at Daniel 12 - that you have attempted to incorporate into your theory:

Daniel 12:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

Prophecy of the End Time

1) “At that time Michael shall stand up,The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3) Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.


The aforementioned passage of Scripture clearly identifies the time of the AOD - that Jesus refers back to in Matthew 24:15. It also references the Great Tribulation - and the order of Resurrections. Absolutely nothing about a Judgment. Nor does it provide a timeframe in which those who sleep in the dust are resurrected.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:52 pm

Mr Baldy, your proof that your interpretation of scripture is right is that my understanding of scripture is wrong.

I am happy to stand by what I have written and to allow time to reveal the actual truth of what has been written within the scriptures. Now my understanding does not have an understanding of just one critical verse from which the rest has been built but has been drawn from supporting verses from the Bible.

The Reformation Fathers used scripture to demonise the Roman Catholic Church in their stoush with the Roman Catholic Church over theological understanding by claiming that the Roman Empire/Catholic Church was the fourth beast of the Statue because they were the fourth empire that had dominion over Isreal even though the Daniel 2 prophecy was given to Neb. the King of Babylon in the Land of the Chaldeans concerning the Land where Babylon was established.

Because they did not want to acknowledge the Spiritual characteristics of the Four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 they humanised them to justify their demonisation of the Roman Empire/Catholic Church.

This "false teaching" of the reformation still exists today and is the reason for our disagreement on the interpretation of scripture.

Shalom

P.S. - I think that further discussion would degenerate and not be profitable for either of us at this point in time.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:52 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Shalom


God Bless you Jay Ross.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:17 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:This Final Week as it relates to the LAST DAY is actually TWO 3.5 year timeframes or 1,260 days each bringing it to a total of 2,520 days. This 2,520 day period = 7 years with each year equaling 360 days.

I agree...but I'm a little unsure of what you mean by the words "as it relates"(regarding the Last Day).
Mr Baldy wrote:Now, according to the 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24 - as I have mentioned previously three of the six have been fulfilled - and the remaining requirement (4-6) will not be completed until He has REIGNED and destroyed the last enemy - which is DEATH.

The requirements you're speaking of in no way conflict with the position I'm holding.
I think that you're saying that the Seventieth week Must be Completed BEFORE Christ can Properly Reign, i.e. In His Kingdom. I believe that is your understanding right?

Let me ask you something. Can a Gift or Inheritance exist Before it is Given or Received? The answer is yes of course, and I will elaborate on that idea later.

Mr Baldy wrote:So.....the LAST DAY is day 2,520.

This is what you believe, that I know.
Mr Baldy wrote:The "UNIQUENESS" of this day is that it will last for 1,000 years, without it being counted as a 24 hour period as we know it. Meaning it doesn't start over as if it were day one of the Millennial Kingdom - as it is the DAY OF THE LORD. A single continuous time period....it is the LAST DAY.

That would qualify as unique, yes, but I think it is much more unique than that alone. I think I can provide evidence of that for you with more scripture as we continue.
Mr Baldy wrote:After all Peter plainly stated that a day with the Lord is as a 1,000 years.


Key word in that is "AS". He does not say that it is Indeed 1,000 continuous years.

Mr Baldy wrote:Therefore your point about the things I have mentioned occurring on the "First Day or the Very Beginning of the LAST DAY - SHOULD provide the answer to your question.

Not really, since the words, "the Very Beginning" Would accurately describe your position as to WHEN During That 1,000 year day you expect Christ's Kingdom to Commence.

Mr Baldy wrote:I'm looking forward to it!
shorttribber wrote:It truly is a conversation I'm enjoying, and I believe you feel the same.
Mr. B. : ABSOLUTELY!

:grin: :thinking: :typing: :ummm: :read: :typing: :read2: :thinking: :hugs:
Last edited by shorttribber on Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:52 pm

Mr B., thank you for allowing me the time to search the scriptures to show what I've been saying. There is so much to cover that I did expect to post yesterday but couldn't, I've just kept digging for more and more that the list of scriptures can be eventually too long.

It seemed best to take some of it and begin at some point....so here is the first part.
the texts are shortened by the many rows of dots (periods) only to create Focus.

It should come as no surprise to you or any student of Bible prophecy that the reading does not Usually follow a Linear Timeline. Commonly, and very intentionally by God and the form of writing, repetitious ideas are folded together and over lap in historic and real time.

Is 10
20 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness..........................................................

..............27 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.........................

..............32 As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.

(At This Point, please remember that there WERE/ARE no Paragraph Divisions)........... Remember, what occurs in the beginning of the Next Chapter occurs in "That Day"

....................................On to Is 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him

, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.



10 And in that day
there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


Insert ROMANS 15:

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith {Is 11:10 ABOVE}, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


Returning to Is.11

11 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time
to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:38 pm

Mr. B.,
Have you had the time to consider my last post on this subject? Does the several texts in my last post not show that Christ's earthly ministry occurred in "That Day"?
Whenever we see "That Day" mentioned in Isaiah and among all the other prophets it is always consistent with "The Day of the Lord"; "That Day" that is not a 24 hour "Day", but One Day that has Many Aspects and Unique Characteristics pertaining to Time and Events.

There is more that I need to add, but I would appreciate your thoughts on my last post so far.

bless ya
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:40 pm

:boohoo: :abandoned: :boohoo:

:hugs:Just kidding Mr. B., we all get busy with stuff. Hope all is well with you of course :hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:55 pm

shorttribber wrote:Mr. B., Have you had the time to consider my last post on this subject? Does the several texts in my last post not show that Christ's earthly ministry occurred in "That Day"? Whenever we see "That Day" mentioned in Isaiah and among all the other prophets it is always consistent with "The Day of the Lord"; "That Day" that is not a 24 hour "Day", but One Day that has Many Aspects and Unique Characteristics pertaining to Time and Events. There is more that I need to add, but I would appreciate your thoughts on my last post so far.


Hey Shorty,

I actually just got my PC back today. Thank God!

I have briefly read over what you have mentioned in connection with the Scriptures you have provided - I will respond.

However, Let me ask you this.......

Do you believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom where Christ will literally Reign for 1,000 years?
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:49 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Do you believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom where Christ will literally Reign for 1,000 years?


I'm uncertain either way mr. B. There are many reasons to see it as non literal...and just as many reasons to see it as literal...just don't know. :dunno:

Glad to have you back posting too...blessings and :hugs: as always
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:50 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Do you believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom where Christ will literally Reign for 1,000 years?


shorttribber wrote:I'm uncertain either way Mr B. There are many reasons to see it as non literal...and just as many reasons to see it as literal...just don't know.


I have asked the aforementioned question for a reason - but more on this later, as I attempt to answer your previous question.

shorttribber wrote:Have you had the time to consider my last post on this subject? Does the several texts in my last post not show that Christ's earthly ministry occurred in "That Day"? Whenever we see "That Day" mentioned in Isaiah and among all the other prophets it is always consistent with "The Day of the Lord"; "That Day" that is not a 24 hour "Day", but One Day that has Many Aspects and Unique Characteristics pertaining to Time and Events.


Shorty, I see what you are mentioning in your analogy when attempting to unite "Christ's Earthly Ministry" with "That Day" and perhaps even equating it a "wee bit" as it relates to "The Day of the Lord" -
However; it will not work as far as the LAST DAY.

Let me explain...........

The Apostle Peter describes the Day of the Lord as this:

2 Peter 3:10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the Earth and its works will be burned up.


Now the Day of the Lord and the LAST DAY are synonymous - however, we both know that the Earth will NOT be burned up at the Coming of Christ - which occurs on the LAST DAY AND is also the Day of the Lord. So there is a time span that covers a of sequence of events during this UNIQUE DAY.

If Christ's Earthly Ministry is a part of the LAST DAY - then you would have to totally rule out a literal Millennial Kingdom - as it occurred more than 1,000 years ago. This is one reason why I asked you if you believed in a literal Millennial Reign of Christ.

I also remember that you thought the Sheep & Goats Judgment was a "Parable." Well, if you are correct, then you cannot possibly believe in a literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ - and it would ALL End when He Appears. This would subsequently unite the Sheep & Goats parable to the GWTJ and make them one and the same. This however presents HUGE Problem. If one believes that there is no literal Millennial Kingdom - then Revelation 20 has to be looked upon as completely "Metaphorical" - and the Day of the Lord would also have to be explained in order to make sense concerning the time span that Scripture seems to identify it's purpose and the sequence of events occurring thereof.

So in closing, I believe as I have mentioned before, that Christ's Earthly Ministry was most definitely a "part" of the 70th week - but the Day of the Lord and the LAST DAY begin on Day 2520 and is a UNIQUE DAY that spans over a 1,000 year period of time.
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Re: The LAST DAY

Postby shorttribber on Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:26 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Now the Day of the Lord and the LAST DAY are synonymous - however, we both know that the Earth will NOT be burned up at the Coming of Christ - which occurs on the LAST DAY AND is also the Day of the Lord. So there is a time span that covers a of sequence of events during this UNIQUE DAY.

The difficulty that you're thinking exists is answered in you own statement. Many things Occur DURING the Day of The Lord, His Physical Coming and the Burning Earth Occur During That Day. How is it that Chist Ministry is not in view also In That Day?
It's seems that you've discovered that the Seventieth Week is Easily Split in Two, but are unable to see the Split is just as Easy For God regarding the Last Day/Day of the Lord.
it's the Same Principle...God Can and Did divide the Last Day just as He Did the Last Week....it's that simple.

Mr Baldy wrote:If Christ's Earthly Ministry is a part of the LAST DAY - then you would have to totally rule out a literal Millennial Kingdom

That's just not accurate MR. B., yes, there still can remain a literal millennial reign.

Mr Baldy wrote:I also remember that you thought the Sheep & Goats Judgment was a "Parable." Well, if you are correct, then you cannot possibly believe in a literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ - and it would ALL End when He Appears.

Not so fast Mr. B. Don't get me wrong, it is a judgment, it just occurs DURING the Great Trib., not After it.

If it does indeed occur then...there is no conflict, and it Will occur Then, just as I'm saying.

gotta finish later....
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4990
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