Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

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Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Wed May 25, 2016 9:16 pm

The question of: - "Where would you go to see the four beasts of Daniel 7, the false prophet and Satan at this present time?" has me presently intrigued and I am wondering if the Bible provides the answer to this simple question?

Where does one look in the bible to begin with, to establish their present location?
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:48 pm

Why do you think they would all be present at the same period of time (History, Present, or Future)?

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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby canada on Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:38 pm

For the location of the "false prophet" I would go to that city within the city of Rome ... that being Vatican City.

The Vatican hierarchy is the false prophet ... the word "vatic" means prophet ... Vatic = Vatican

Within that great city that has reigned over kings of the earth, all buying and selling is controlled by the Vatican.

The biblical location of the mark of the beast is on right hand and forehead and that is how the followers of the beast are identified. With his right hand the priest dips his hand into the baptismal font and places the mark upon the forehead of the infant followers of the beast at their baptism.

On Ash Wednesday, the priest places his right hand into the burnt ashes and places the identifying mark upon the forehead of the adult followers of the beast.

When was the last time you saw a follower of Rome make the identifying mark with his left hand?

Every pope is considered to be the image of "peter".
When Paul VI spoke to the reporters prior to addressing the United Nations, he said:
"Do you know who I am? My name is Peter".

When one pope dies, the false prophet (Vatican hierarchy) simply creates another living speaking image of the previous peter.

Vicarious Filli Dei = 666
Here we have the ... image of the beast ... the mark of the beast ... and the number of the beast. Rev 13.

ccc
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby burien1 on Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:46 pm

:welcome: to our FP family, Canada. :spin:
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:59 am

:wavewelcome: Canada!
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:38 pm

keithareilly wrote:Why do you think they would all be present at the same period of time (History, Present, or Future)?

Keith


Keith, it all depends on how you view the unfolding story as revealed within the scriptures.

In answer to your question, yes. They all exist at this very moment in time, but the question is where do they presently exist? The answer during the first portion of the millennium Age will be different from the answer which covers the present period of time.
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:19 pm

canada wrote:For the location of the "false prophet" I would go to that city within the city of Rome ... that being Vatican City.

<snip>

ccc


Welcome to the discussion.

With respect to your comments can you support your views from the scriptures?
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby canada on Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:14 pm

When discussing Revelation, I like to stay within Revelation ... sorry, I only noted Rev 13 but thought the points made were obvious as to their Revelation passages.
1. Scripture notes that the location of the city is on seven hills, and Rome (and therefore Vatican City) is located within the city of Rome. “And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth.” Revelation 17:9
The Reformation saints and martyrs were in agreement that this referred to Rome, and not Seattle which is also on seven hills along with a few other cities in the world.
2. Scripture notes that the location of the mark of the beast is on right hand and forehead. Revelation 13:16. I pointed out that followers of Rome are marked by this sign on their forehead and with their right hand.

3. Regarding the “image” of the beast, scripture states: “And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak; and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.” Revelation 13:15.
The Reformation saints and martyrs refused to worship the image of the beast and were killed . St Bartholomews Day Masace etc. Unless one is a hyper literalist or a super spiritualizer, I don’t think that many students of prophecy would literally expect to see literal life given to an image and that it could speak. However, a literal bronze image of “peter” is within the walls of the Vatican and so many followers have kissed it’s foot that it is near worn away, and every pope is considered to be a living speaking image of “peter”.
4. The Reformation protestants claimed that at one time the papal “Triple Tiara” had Vicarious Fillii Dei on it and this summed at 666.
It should be noted that the original six “Roman Numerals” ... I V X L C D sum at ... 666.
Revelation notes that the “false prophet” can perform miracles. The Vatican claims that it’s priests can turn wine into the literal blood of Jesus.
Scripture notes: “For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. Rev 16:6.
I hope that sufficient scripture has been provided for you to support my views.
Of the common views of the interpretation of Revelation ... preterism, historicism, futurism ... I hold to that of historicism, that of the original Reformation protestants.
Thanks to the writings of three Jesuits Alcazar, Ribero, Lecunza) who promoted preterism and futurism as the finger of prophecy was pointing to the papacy and the Church of Rome as being the great harlot church.
ccc
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:11 am

canada wrote:When discussing Revelation, I like to stay within Revelation ... <snip>

ccc


Thanks for your response. Sadly the references you provided, do not answer the question posed for the present time.

It really depends on "who" you believe the four beasts, the false prophet, the Anti-christ and Satan are and their origin.

I am not sure that the views within "historicism" are able to provide the answer to the posed question.

Shalom
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby canada on Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:06 pm

Sorry ... I am only aware of the location of the false prophet, the image, mark and numbered beast and two witnesses.
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:23 am

Jay Ross wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Why do you think they would all be present at the same period of time (History, Present, or Future)?

Keith


Keith, it all depends on how you view the unfolding story as revealed within the scriptures.

In answer to your question, yes. They all exist at this very moment in time, but the question is where do they presently exist? The answer during the first portion of the millennium Age will be different from the answer which covers the present period of time.


You state they all exist at this very moment in time.

Therefore, point them out so we can see you are correct.

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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:02 pm

keithareilly wrote:<snip>

You state they all exist at this very moment in time.

Therefore, point them out so we can see you are correct.

Keith


Keith,

Paul in Ephesians 6 lumps both SATAN and the wickedness of the fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 etc. together as the spiritual entities that we are presently resisting. If they are Heavenly hosts, then I am not able to say, the first beast is over there and the fourth beast is operating in the Middle East etc. and is such and such a person, but I can point you to the impact of their dominion's influence over certain people groups in the main that clearly indicate that they are exercising their respective dominions at the present time.

Because these beasts and Satan and the false prophet etc. are spiritual entities, it is not possible to point them out so that you can see them to satisfy the proof that you are requesting.

If these entities are spiritual being then their present place where we could go to see then is of course heaven. BNut for us to go there to see them like the Apostle John did as described in the Book of Revelation means that we would have to go there in the spirit as he did.

Shalom.
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:35 pm

keith, you wanted me to point out all of the beasts that co-exist at this present time who I have suggested are spirituals entities and who presently exist in the heavenly places as Paul suggested in Ephesians 6:12.

Can you point out to me any of the heavenly hosts that presently exist whether or not they are righteous or not, i.e. God's holy Angels so that "I too can believe"?
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:44 am

Jay Ross wrote:keith, you wanted me to point out all of the beasts that co-exist at this present time who I have suggested are spirituals entities and who presently exist in the heavenly places as Paul suggested in Ephesians 6:12.

Can you point out to me any of the heavenly hosts that presently exist whether or not they are righteous or not, i.e. God's holy Angels so that "I too can believe"?


Daniel 7:16-17
16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things. 17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.

Jay,

Daniel asked for the truth concerning the four beasts, he was told they are kings that arise from the Earth.
Those who answered Daniel stated the origin of the Beasts is Earthly, not Heavenly.

Consequently, I would look for something Earthly lasting no longer than the life of a mortal King. The exception to a single mortal kings life might be the leopard with four heads. The beast is described as looking like a leopard with four wings. It is the next verse that says it has four heads. Two interpretation exists for this. One, all four heads exist at the same time; this is depicted by many artists. Alternatively, It might be the beast actually looks like it is described in the scripture, "a [single headed] leopard with four wings"; the heads may be consecutive one replacing the other which might be why the heads are in a different verse. If the second interpretation is correct, then the Beast time period might span the length of four kings.


Also, because scripture actually describes these beasts appearing sequentially, though not necessarily consecutively, I would not assume all four exist during the same period of time nor would I assume they appear one immediately after another.


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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:18 pm

keith,

You may be right, but the results of the British referendum has shown that the revived Roman Empire is not a consideration for the End times. The revived roman empire has to include Brittan in its make up if it is to be considered to be a possibility.

Satan is described as a king of this world, yet he is not of this world but has a dominion of influence over the peoples of the earth to do his will.

If Satan is called a king then the fallen heavenly host who are the four beasts of Daniel 9:1-12 can also be considered to be kings as they are described and their presence manifests through the people rising up under the influence of the respective beasts such that the dominion of the beasts can be observed here on the earth.

This perspective whether yours or the one I am presenting rests with the way in which we interpret the scriptures. I see the beasts of Daniel 7 as being fallen heavenly hosts who are kings because they have dominion/influence over the people of the earth.

If we consider them to be "human" in nature, then they cannot all be judged at the one time and at the same event in heaven as described in Daniel 7:1-12. They would have to exceed the 120 year time limit that God placed on mankind to live from the time just before the flood.

The length of time of the respective influences of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 has also exceeded this 120 year rule as well if we considered the time periods of their respective periods of dominion and influence.

Shalom
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:41 am

Jay,

What have the beasts of Daniel 7 to do with a revived Roman Empire?

Sure fallen Heavenly Beings could become earthly kings.
But, I don't see any evidence in Daniel that the four beasts are heavenly beings, fallen or not.
Do you Assume all kings or political leaders on Earth are of Heavenly origin? If not, why these four?

The thrones were set up during a period of the fourth beast, during the time of the "little horn".
There are two ways to look at verse 12. First, the other beasts are judged along with the fourth beast and are stripped of their authority but allowed to remain awhile while only the fourth beast is thrown to the fire. Second, The first three had been stripped of their authority sometime in the past, were allowed to exist for a little while longer sometime in the past, but were no longer around so were not thrown into the fire along with the fourth beast.

Since the books were opened during the time of little horn, we can be certain of only the little horn, and therefore, the fourth beast, being around at the time of the thrones when the books were opened.

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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:17 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay,

What have the beasts of Daniel 7 to do with a revived Roman Empire?



Hi Keith, you are right, the Revived Roman Empire has nothing directly to do the beasts, however, the Roman Empire 2,000 or so years ago was certainly working under the spiritual influence of the third beast and were the people of the prince that sacked Jerusalem in 70 AD. Daniel 9:26b. (This prince was a fallen heavenly wicked host, one of the four heads/princes of the third beast).
keithareilly wrote:Sure fallen Heavenly Beings could become earthly kings.
But, I don't see any evidence in Daniel that the four beasts are heavenly beings, fallen or not.


What state was Daniel in when he had this vision? It is my view that he was in the spirit and as such he was able to see all of the spiritual entities in heaven. While in the spirit he also would have been able to see the manifestations of the wicked heavenly hosts rising up on the face of the earth also, as people began to inhabit their respective dominions..
keithareilly wrote:Do you Assume all kings or political leaders on Earth are of Heavenly origin? If not, why these four?


The short answer is simply, NO
keithareilly wrote:The thrones were set up during a period of the fourth beast, during the time of the "little horn".
There are two ways to look at verse 12. First, the other beasts are judged along with the fourth beast and are stripped of their authority but allowed to remain awhile, while only the fourth beast is thrown to the fire. Second, The first three had been stripped of their authority sometime in the past, were allowed to exist for a little while longer sometime in the past, but were no longer around so were not thrown into the fire along with the fourth beast.

Since the books were opened during the time of little horn, we can be certain of only the little horn, and therefore, the fourth beast, being around at the time of the thrones when the books were opened.

Keith


Keith, that is an interesting observation on your part, but Revelation 19's timeline suggests that the beast of Daniel 7:19-22?, is an amalgamation of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, that all return as a single spiritual entity, after the 1,000 years of their imprisonment and then this beast is judged and thrown into the Lake of fire at the end of the little while period, just before Satan is dispatched also into the Lake of Fire. Our understanding is dependent on our respective timelines that we have constructed from our own personal understanding and interpretation of the scriptures.

It is interesting to note that Daniel 7:13-14 is repeated in the first couple of verses of Revelation 19.

Shalom
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Re: Where would you go to see the 4 beasts, false prophet etc.

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:21 pm

Keith

A thought that occurred to me after I posted the previous post is that there is evidence that the four beasts of Daniel 7: 1-12 are judged in heaven. If the beasts were of human origin, then for the scriptures to be consistent, the "beasts" would have been judged on the earth.

Isaiah 24:21-23 tells us that the fallen heavenly hosts will be judges in heaven/on high.

Isaiah 24:21-23: -
21
It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22
They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23
Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.


Paul in Ephesians 6:12 tells us that we are wrestling against spiritual entities that presently live in the heavens/high places.

Ephesians 6:12: -
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.


Daniel 7:9 describes the setting up of the judgement of the four beasts in heaven along with all of the other fallen wicked heavenly hosts.

Daniel 7:9-10; -
I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and its wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


After the Heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth are judged, the ones where the judgement goes against them, are imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit/the Abyss and after a time and a season (Daniel 7) or as Isaiah 24:22 tells us after many days, i.e. years, they will be punished by being dispatched into the the Lake of Fire but after 1,000 years the Abyss will be unlocked for a little while when they will be allowed to one last time oppress the people on the earth.

Keith, again it comes down to our individual interpretation of the scriptures, and whether or not we are prepared to stand on what the Holy Spirit is revealing to us.

Shalom
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