Husband/Wife Roles?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:59 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Hope that wasn't too adversarial, but knowing my dislike for stereotypes, my guess is you expected it but hoped it would be overlooked. My apologies for not being able to fully comply.


Actually, I was hoping for a little relief as any comment I make cannot by nature include every single nit pickin detail you seem to need be included. As a result something has to be read into the comment that wasn't covered and it appears I am always wrong about something no matter my efforts. As I have been trying to agree with you essentially and trying to hash out some details I now find I am wasting my time even bothering, as I believe I fit into one of your notorious sterotypes. Sorry for being a lowly miserable man type person who doesn't understand how to hold my mouth right when I say I love you.

Good Bye
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:17 am

Exit40 wrote:As I have been trying to agree with you essentially and trying to hash out some details I now find I am wasting my time even bothering,

David, evidently when I disagree with the details you are hashing out, you are taking that very personally. I'm focusing on issues and I think you are focusing on maleness.
as I believe I fit into one of your notorious sterotypes. Sorry for being a lowly miserable man type person who doesn't understand how to hold my mouth right when I say I love you.


I truly am baffled by this as I'm taking a lot of heat for refuting the practice of stereotyping and generalizing. I do understand the fine line between refuting another's theories and/or scriptural interpretations and how that translates into a personal attack sometimes whether it was intended or not. For any of my arguments that have come across as being a personal insult, I offer my sincere apologies. What you perceived as "nit-picking", I was trying to be as clear and accurate in my responses as possible to each point brought up as some have insinuated I have ignored their comments.

In my numerous encounters on boards and blogs about husband/wife roles, I have witnessed how heated this topic can be, and find that those who participated usually leave the discussion with the same convictions they began with so perhaps you are right that the topic is a waste of time.

So, just as I began my participation in this thread, I am still opposed to a system of Patriarchy, a hierarchial order of persons, an understanding of the gospel as male/female in nature, and standby the list of behaviors and gifts are common to all believers regardless of status, gender, age, or ethnicity.

That said, you and others are free to disagree and I respect your right to believe as you do. We are still sisters and brothers in the Lord who hopefully continue to love one another as He loves us.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:33 am

Abiding in His Word on Sun May 15, 2016 12:27 pm

Throughout this thread you have said :
1) Without a scripture indicating a husband has authority he cannot have authority.




If you know of such a scripture, please post it.


Numbers 5:19
The cohen will make her swear by saying to her, “If no man has gone to bed with you, if you have not gone astray to make yourself unclean while under your husband’s authority, then be free from this water of embitterment and cursing.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Numbers 5:20
But if you have in fact gone astray while under your husband’s authority and become unclean, because some man other than your husband has gone to bed with you . . .”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Numbers 5:29
This is the law for jealousy: when either a wife under her husband’s authority goes astray and becomes unclean,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Numbers is pretty clear here (highlights/sizing/added by me). The husband has authority. :a2: SS
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:53 am

Spreading Salt wrote:Numbers is pretty clear here (highlights/sizing/added by me). The husband has authority.


Oh please, Spreading Salt! Do you really want to start dissecting the Mosaic Law to prove or justify a husband's assumed authority over his wife in the NT?? Even should you so desire, you will have to show evidence that a husband was given authority over his wife not just that they had it. Lots of things existed throughout the OT that were never intended by God and this passage is the equivalent of trying to justify polygamy, slavery, murder, concubinage, or the practice of stoning because of it's prevalence.

The test of a woman's adultery is one way that the woman could be exonerated and/or freed: 'But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, she will then be free and conceive children."

If either husband or wife is found guilty of adultery, they are both parties are to be stoned. We know from scripture that husbands avoided any accusation or penalty for adultery by simply putting one wife out of the house and taking another. We also know that Kings had troves of wives and concubines so adultery was not an issue for them either.

Nevertheless, nowhere does scripture give evidence of a husband given authority over his wife by God. and forgive me, but this effort smacks of desperation to discover such a command. :roll:

P.S. And for the life of me I can't understand why the principle of a mutual reciprocity between husband and wife appears to be so offensive and distasteful to some Christians.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:17 pm

Abiding,

You can wiggle wiggle wiggle your way away from God's Word if you'd like. Not one yote or tittle will be removed. ALL 66 books are His Word. I didn't write it. You asked for an example of a scripture that stated the husband had authority over the wife. Here are 3.

Whether or not we like or approve of the scripture or the context of many Old Testament Mosaic Laws is not relevant. I understand Yeshua has fulfilled the law where we could not. I am not under law anymore but grace.

It is an act of obedience that scripture is requesting on the part of the wife throughout the many scripture examples in this wonderful thread.

Here is the 'word' authority that you were requesting. Do with it as you so desire.

SS :a2:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:28 pm

Spreading Salt wrote:You can wiggle wiggle wiggle your way away from God's Word if you'd like. Not one yote or tittle will be removed. ALL 66 books are His Word. I didn't write it. You asked for an example of a scripture that stated the husband had authority over the wife. Here are 3.


I have repeatedly asked for scripture where a husband was commanded to have authority over his wife. If I misspoke in asking for one where a husband "had" authority, it would be impossible to post all the scriptures where men had authority over women in general and their wives specifically throughout history as well as the OT. That desire to rule was prophesied in Genesis and the fulfillment of that prophecy is evident throughout the OT especially.

Here is the 'word' authority that you were requesting. Do with it as you so desire.


You might be interested in knowing that out of the 12 versions of the Bible I have available to me, the word "authority" is absent from Num. 5:20 in all with only one exception and that is the ESV which not surprisingly is the version promoted by the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Wayne Grudem was the general editor of the ESV Study Bible, and is a member of the Translation Oversight Committee for the English Standard Version Bible. Grudem was also an author of the Danvers Statement in which the infamous and unwieldy term *complementarianism* was invented. He also went on to dream up 83 rules for what women can and cannot do in a church. The verse does read "under your husband" which implies authority which is not unusual given the desire to rule evident throughout the OT regardless of the absence of such permission or command to do so.

But the NASB correctly places the word authority in italics which a note that the word was not in the original, but supplied by translators to hopefully clarify the text, but in reality skewed the meaning as is evident in your using it to support a lawful, God ordained authority.

And again....
Here is the 'word' authority that you were requesting. Do with it as you so desire.


When you assumed I implied Eve was under some "magic spell or trance" and I posted scripture as evidence that refutes she was disobedient, you ignored my post.

1. "but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." 1 Tim. 2:14
2. ..."But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness" 2 Cor. 11 :3

1. "Adam was not deceived," 1 Tim. 2:14.
2. "In Adam all die," I Cor. 15:22.
3. "By one man [person] sin entered into the world," Rom. 5:12.
4. "Through the offense of one many be dead," Rom. 5:15.
5. "it was by one that sinned," Rom. 5:16.
6. "The judgment was by one to condemnation," Rom 5:16.
7. "By one man's offense death reigned,-"
8. [death reigned] "by one," Rom. 5:17.
9. "By the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," Rom. 5:18.
10. "By one man's disobedience" Rom. 5:19.
11. "Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come."—Rom. 5:14.


So the evidence you've provided as evidence of a husband's authority is iffy at best while the evidence that Eve was wholly deceived (and not disobedient) is credible imo.

Those who advocate for “If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense" method of interpreting the Bible are not taking into consideration the linguistics involved in the gap between the 1st century and the 21st century. We must also deal with prescriptive vs. narrative/descriptive scripture, idioms, metaphors, hyperbole, as well as cultural traditions and customs.

That's why to build doctrine on a single word or even a single verse that contradicts other scripture, most likely will lead to an incorrect understanding. The ambiguous meaning of a single word such as "kephale" is evidence of the confusion and disagreement that arises when trying to build an important principle that affects a great many in the body of Christ. In cases like that, verses must be understood in keeping with the whole counsel of God rather than an exception to the overall journey to the era of grace and liberty from the law. That was the reason I posted the 59 one-anothers as evidence that rather than a top-down hierarchy among any believers and specifically married believers is the overwhelming behavior and is mutual.
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