Husband/Wife Roles?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Sun May 22, 2016 8:28 pm

Abiding, yes, i don't mean men have authority over women in general, i am referring to the order of the husband and wife. i believe that God set up the husband's authority for order, the old no 2 heads argument, but mainly that the marriage reflect Christ's relationship to the church. In Eph 5 that appears to be what Paul is pointing, that the greater mystery is not the husband and wife but Christ and the church.

Christ is the head of the church and He is God, He has authority that He does not relinquish in relationship to the church, Christ and the church are not equal. But Christ chooses not to rule us with an iron scepter as He will the nations, rather His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and He commands us with love 'If you love me you will keep my commandments'.

So if one looks for the authority bestowed upon the husband, the lesser example, one must look the the greater example of Christ, who definitely has authority, but uses it to love and encourage His bride and bring her to holiness. What is the best reflection of Christ and the church, even though to a lesser degree, a husband with authority or a husband without authority?

And it does appear that in the life to come there will be greater and lesser degrees of authority, in love of course. We will rule and reign with Christ, but according to the parable of the talents some may rule more than others. Jesus indicated in Matt 20 that the path to greatness in the kingdom follows the path of service ' whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever want to be first must be your slave- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve'.

It would appear that in the life to come, those who submitted to the Lord and whatever authority He may have placed over them and served well in their position will be 'greater' and have the greater authority. So those who were once called husbands who did not do well in the position assigned to them and did not serve, may be under the authority of those who once were called wives who did serve well and did do well in the position assigned to them, in love of course.

And the last shall be first and the first shall be last. Reminds me of an old saying- 'always be nice to everybody on the way up the ladder because you will be seeing the same people on the way down the ladder'.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Mon May 23, 2016 3:27 am

Romans 7:
7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Another reason that Christ does not and husbands are not to "rule over" is because "rule over" implies laws and laws grant power to sin. To "Rule over" our wife is to empower the sin that lives in her flesh. This is not good husbanding.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon May 23, 2016 4:43 am

1whowaits wrote:Christ is the head of the church and He is God, He has authority that He does not relinquish in relationship to the church, Christ and the church are not equal.


But Christ chooses not to rule us with an iron scepter as He will the nations, rather His yoke is easy and His burden is light, and He commands us with love 'If you love me you will keep my commandments'.


Jesus doesn't command us with love, He commands us to love.

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 15:12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

John 15:17 "This I command you, that you love one another.

Matt 22:37-39 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.


So if one looks for the authority bestowed upon the husband,


Please post the scripture where a husband has been bestowed with authority.

What is the best reflection of Christ and the church,


Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her

even though to a lesser degree, a husband with authority or a husband without authority?


Where is a husband given any authority?

And it does appear that in the life to come there will be greater and lesser degrees of authority, in love of course.


Of course.... :mrgreen:

We will rule and reign with Christ, but according to the parable of the talents some may rule more than others.


So the moral of the story is use your authority well now so you will have more in heaven?

Jesus indicated in Matt 20 that the path to greatness in the kingdom follows the path of service ' whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever want to be first must be your slave- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve'.


Agreed. This is the example Jesus set for all believers. BUT it is NOT a "path to greatness." Greatness is the opposite of servanthood. Jesus is not teaching that if you start out as a servant, you are on your way to greatness. Serving one another does not come with a timeline on the path to something greater as in climbing a ladder of success or a promotion from employee to CEO. He specifically said that ruling or having authority over others is the way of the world, but "it shall not be so with you."

It would appear that in the life to come, those who submitted to the Lord and whatever authority He may have placed over them and served well in their position will be 'greater' and have the greater authority.


Where do you find Jesus giving authority over others to anyone other than demons? Please state such a command.

So those who were once called husbands who did not do well in the position assigned to them


Please post scripture for an "assignment" other than to love.

and did not serve, may be under the authority of those who once were called wives who did serve well and did do well in the position assigned to them, in love of course.


Is this supposed to be an encouragement to perform well? Or a fear tactic for good performance? In love, of course.....

And the last shall be first and the first shall be last. Reminds me of an old saying- 'always be nice to everybody on the way up the ladder because you will be seeing the same people on the way down the ladder'.


:lol: You have aptly compared the gospel to the world. Same premise. Fashion yourselves after worldly systems of authority and success and imitate them....in love, of course. :roll:

The ways, systems, arrangements in the world are the complete opposite of the way Christians are to live.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Mon May 23, 2016 7:07 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
You have indeed hit the nail on the head here, David! Much of how we behave is the result of how we were raised, the environment we grow up in, and I might add today the image the media presents for both men and women. In addition, I would be remiss if I didn't add the image the church is trying to mold for each individual regardless of the lack of such gender defining in scripture.


I fully understand, well I think I do, the image the media's are presenting us. A generation ago it was speculated what TV was doing to children, like me. I have to think it in some ways improved my outlook on my position in life, and in other ways was detrimental. Raised in a Christian home, that originated in the upper plains, we were no doubt Calvinistic Lutheran Protestant, from the Missouri synod. Some of those values I as taught I find extremely valuable, others not so much. But the image held to for marriage comes right out of ancient times I think. At one point it in my teen age years it became necessary for my Mother to work, me too but that is another story. My Father's resistance to this was remarkable, as if he had failed our family somehow. He was a hard working man, he understood how the ants do it. But he was the head ant, and we all had to tow the mark so to speak. He felt he was, but the situation was out of his control, and the necessity of needing help financially to run the family was somehow taking something from his headship. While this headship barely showed itself to us kids regarding my parents marriage, this was one place where it did manifest.

I had the advantage of seeing his response, my Mothers as well, and my own opinion of the situation as I was 'coming of age', and beginning to decide who it was I wanted to be as an adult, growing into my future husbandhood if you will. Add to that the impact of the world/media/TV of the '60's generation, it was a time of great confusion for me. but in the '70's it became apparent media was intent on making the average white family man into some kind of klutz who could not manage a family. He was an object of pity more than scorn, someone who had to be tolerated while the real work of the family was done by the Mom despite him. Image, mine as was portrayed, my family saw this, it was something I had to deal with. This continues today, it's forms and images are a product of the loss of national, family, and personal morals over this recent change in our generations. It is the Church that has allowed this.

I don't have much time right now, but I want to share an eye-opening experience I had one time that helped me understand how both men and women have purposely or inadvertently assumed the image they are bombarded with on a daily basis...
... and he recognized my faulty reasoning that physical strength was the preferred one that is used to accomplish tasks. This is a "learned" behavior on the part of some women who are evidently modeling that which is seen today as a "strength" much the same as men learn that power is the image a "real" man will emulate lest he be labeled weak.


And there it is right there, you and I are of the same generation, we have seen the changes, and made them too, collectively to our culture, mostly to ourselves. And we are expressing some of those changes here in this topic discussion. In doing so we must look at what the changes are. Specifically one is equality of the sexes, or the war of the sexes would be more appropriate. It is not in fact who is equal, but who is better. There is no war where the sides accept their equality. And the battle for the dominant image goes on over this.

I have one more such epiphany to share later, but wanted to say there is much wisdom in your observation of what might be "instinctive" but is in reality carnal and flesh due to many reasons including "learned" behavior.


A spade is a spade, it is our sin nature. We are in the world and of the world. Only in Christ can we come out. Maybe we should have a thread discussing how to recognize that. As for 'learned behavior', think of the innocence of children, and what and how we teach them. And what we are teaching here.

I know what we are learning. Abiding is a force to be reckoned with. If'n ya ain't got the Scripture to back what ya say, be prepared to explain yourself. :wink: This is a great discussion.

God Bless you

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon May 23, 2016 7:53 am

As for 'learned behavior', think of the innocence of children, and what and how we teach them. And what we are teaching here.


David, at some point those children must make their own decisions and choices regardless of the training or lack of training they received from their parents. The training has some influence, of course, and behavior witnessed and learned need not be observed if found to be detrimental.

I'm reminded of a Phil Donahue program where two middle-aged men were his guests to discuss alcoholism and it's effect on families. He asked one son why he became an alcoholic after seeing his father's example. His reply was "I saw my father's dependency on alcohol and followed the example he set for us. Then Phil asked the other son why he didn't become an alcoholic. That son's reply was, "I saw my father's dependency on alcohol and refused to follow the example he set for us."

We were fed the Archie Bunker mentality in the 60's and 70's who freely expressed and justified bigotry, toward blacks, Hispanics, "Commies", gays, hippies, Jews, Catholics, "women's libbers", and Polish-Americans. They were necessary targets of his bigotry that enabled him to keep his position as the "head of the house." Regardless of how many times or ways he "barked" orders at his wife, Edith, she dutifully complied by running to fulfill his orders all the while "keeping sweet" in her disposition. Was this program recognized as a funny sit-com? Of course. Did it influence the behavior of young people, I have no doubt albeit in an unconscious way as do media ads affect us subliminally.

If'n ya ain't got the Scripture to back what ya say, be prepared to explain yourself.


Oh, David, I've seen enough explanations to last a lifetime. What is glaringly absent, however, is scriptural support or evidence for those narratives.

Jesus prayed:

Joh 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. John 17:15-17
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Mon May 23, 2016 8:05 pm

Abiding, i would disagree with your interpretation, scripture does appear to indicate that serving in this life leads to rewards and authority in the life to come.

in Matt 24 2 disciples asked to sit on the right and left hand of Jesus when He was King. The right and left hand of the kings are places of authority, Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Jesus' response was not that these places of authority would not exist but that these places were being prepared for those the Father chose, places of authority exist in the life to come.

Jesus further stated that whoever wishes to be great must be your servant, He did not state that seeking to be great was wrong, rather that the way to be great is through servanthood. Being great appears to be a reference to the life to come, being the least or great in the kingdom(Matt 5:19), being least or great would imply a difference in something. Our worth to God does not diminish by our deeds, but it would appear that our authority and rewards will be greater.

That there will be greater degrees of authority is indicate in Matt 19 :28 'I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel...but many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.'

The renewal of all things is the recreation of the heaven and the earth after the millenium. During the millenium it appears that Israel does accept Jesus and remain faithful to Him, they are Christians. After the millenium the only ones that enter the kingdom are those whose names are in the Lamb's Book, which are Christians. The 12 will then be on thrones judging the 12 tribes, they will be over those who appear to be Christians.

Rev 21 states of the New Jerusalem 'The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the nations will bring their splendor into it'. Who are the kings of nations that enter the New Jerusalem? As only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book can enter, these 'kings' are Christians.

So there will be differing levels of authority among Christians in the life to come, those who are called 'kings', those who sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes, and those who sit at the right and left hand of Jesus. So when Jesus refers to those who are greater in the kingdom and those who are least in the kingdom, He is referring to authority (not worth to God), and He is referring to Christians as only Christians get into the Kingdom, apparently Christians will have differing levels of authority in the life to come.

So when Jesus states in Matt 20 that the rulers of he Gentiles 'lord it over them' (exercise dominion), He is referring to this life, not the life to come, as indicated by the rest of His statement- 'not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant...whoever wants to be first must be your slave.' Jesus states this in the context of indicating that someone will sit on His right and left in the life to come and He earlier indicates that those He is speaking to will sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes, they will have greater levels of authority in the life to come. In this context He also states that the first will be last and the last will be first 'in the kingdom', those who are servants in this life, the last, will be first, have greater authority, in the life to come.

Jesus is not stating that there will not be those who are great in the life to come, that there will not be those that have greater authority, rather He is indicating that the path to greatness or greater authority, is service and submission to authority in this life.

Serve and submit now, for a greater reward and responsibility later is not the principle of the world as you suggest, but a principle of God- 'you have been faithful over a few things, I will put you in charge of many things' Matt 25
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Mon May 23, 2016 8:48 pm

Abiding, another reference about wives and husbands that might be helpful- Titus 2- 'teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God'.

So if older women encourage younger women not to be subject to their husbands, to not submit, does that malign the word of God?
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 24, 2016 4:31 am

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, i would disagree with your interpretation, scripture does appear to indicate that serving in this life leads to rewards and authority in the life to come.


I fail to understand why Jesus reprimands the Pharisees for wanting to display their authority by outward appearances; how Jesus could teach serving rather than ruling as our example in this world and then implement the very same system he disdains in heaven. Makes no sense.

There are a variety of rewards mentioned in scripture; i.e. crowns. But notice their descriptions: crown of life; crown of exultation; crown of righteousness; unfading crown, etc. so I highly doubt they are literal crowns. Also of interest is Jesus' crown of thorns and Paul said Jesus was "crowned" with glory and honor.

At any rate, the topic of heavenly rewards was discussed previously here if anyone wants to refer to it.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 24, 2016 5:57 am

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, another reference about wives and husbands that might be helpful- Titus 2- 'teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God'.


1whowaits, you are still trying to divide Christian behavior into male and female behavior. First of all, the verse you mentioned relates to the behavior of older believers who are to be examples to the younger believers. Behaviors are not gender specific nor age specific and Paul is careful to say "in the same way" or "likewise" in his admonitions to men and women throughout his letters to various churches. And the purpose of his encouraging good behavior is so as to not bring reproach upon the followers of Christ.

Titus 2:7 .....in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.

So if older women encourage younger women not to be subject to their husbands, to not submit, does that malign the word of God?


Older women are to teach sound doctrine just as are older men. Sound doctrine is not that there is a special or different kinds of submission, but all are to submit to one another. That includes others in the church, personal relationships, and in marriage.

Cor. 16:16 .... that you also be in subjection to such men and to everyone who helps in the work and labors.

1Pet. 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another....

Eph 5:21 .....submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.

Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities....

Elders are elders because they are older not because they are male or female. They are elder because older Christians are wiser and more mature in the faith than those who are young. Those who are older are appointed as examples to the younger believers.

Jesus was subject to His parents not because He was male, but because children are young and need the guidance of their parents. But even though He was subject to His parents, He neglected to tell them He was going off to the synagogue. Scripture says He grew in wisdom and stature.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, please refer to the 59 one-anothers posted earlier and you will clearly see that behavior, virtue, and gifts are not specific to one gender to the exclusion of the other.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Sonbeam on Tue May 24, 2016 1:10 pm

Hi Dear Saints!
I haven’t been posting here for some time due to my medical issues, but I’ve continued to visit and read some of your posts.
This has been an interesting thread as the underlying issue in this debate is about concepts in the bible that are not explicitly spelled out versus Biblicism/literalism.

A good commentary on this can be found here:

http://irr.org/shouldnt-biblical-doctri ... r-concepts

“Evangelicals commonly refer to their view of Scripture using the Reformation slogan sola scriptura. While I rally behind this slogan along with my fellow evangelicals, we need to distinguish between sola scriptura and what some people call Biblicism, or perhaps we could call it hyper-Biblicism. Biblicism radicalizes sola scriptura in a way that goes beyond the view that all doctrine must be biblically grounded to the view that all doctrine must be spelled out explicitly in the Bible.”

Though this commentary primarily focuses on the concept of the Trinity, its comments may certainly be applied to any other biblical concepts not explicitly spelled out.

I don’t intend to further engage in this discussion, but thought this knowledge might be helpful.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 24, 2016 1:58 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Though this commentary primarily focuses on the concept of the Trinity, its comments may certainly be applied to any other biblical concepts not explicitly spelled out.


Hi Sonbeam! Good to hear from you again and thank you for your comment. Though I might agree depending on the "concept" being discussed, the commentary doesn't apply to the husband/wife relationship since scripture is very explicit about the behaviors all believers are to emulate toward one another married believers included leaving no room for assumption or speculation.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue May 24, 2016 8:46 pm

Abiding, again scripture demonstrates that there are differing levels of authority in this life and the next. In this life 'the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God..' 1 Cor 11, clearly differing levels of authority. Also in the church, overseers who are to take care of God's church, must meet the listed requirements to qualify for the position (1 Tim 3), which not all Christians can meet, not all Christians can be overseers or deacons, even in the church there are levels of authority.

In the life to come there will be Christians who are sitting on thrones judging Israel, there are those called kings of nations, and there are those who will sit at Jesus' right and left hand. While there will be gifts and crowns in the life to com, there will also be differing levels of authority, just a there are in this life.

When Jesus states in Matt 20 'You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them..', He is not denying that they are rulers or in authority, He is commenting on how they rule, they 'lord it over them', He shows disdain not for their having authority but how they use it. 'Lording it' is interpreted as exercising dominion, more of a reference to being overbearing, arrogant, exerting even more authority than required. While Christians may be in positions of authority, they are to exercise their limited authority in humility and in service not in arrogance, 'whoever wants to become great must be your servant'.

The passage in Titus 2 states what older men, older women, younger women and younger men are to be taught, and they are not all the same. The passage states that younger women are to be taught to be' subject to' or 'obey' their husbands, indicating that there is a differing level of authority. The passage also states at this point, in the instruction to younger women in relation to being subject to their husbands, this is done so that 'no one will malign the word of God', pointing the importance of these instructions. While all Christians are of the same worth, all do not have the same levels of responsibility or authority, in this life and the next.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby shorttribber on Tue May 24, 2016 9:26 pm

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, again scripture demonstrates that there are differing levels of authority in this life and the next. In this life 'the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God..' 1 Cor 11, clearly differing levels of authority. Also in the church, overseers who are to take care of God's church, must meet the listed requirements to qualify for the position (1 Tim 3), which not all Christians can meet, not all Christians can be overseers or deacons, even in the church there are levels of authority.

In the life to come there will be Christians who are sitting on thrones judging Israel, there are those called kings of nations, and there are those who will sit at Jesus' right and left hand. While there will be gifts and crowns in the life to com, there will also be differing levels of authority, just a there are in this life.

When Jesus states in Matt 20 'You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them..', He is not denying that they are rulers or in authority, He is commenting on how they rule, they 'lord it over them', He shows disdain not for their having authority but how they use it. 'Lording it' is interpreted as exercising dominion, more of a reference to being overbearing, arrogant, exerting even more authority than required. While Christians may be in positions of authority, they are to exercise their limited authority in humility and in service not in arrogance, 'whoever wants to become great must be your servant'.

The passage in Titus 2 states what older men, older women, younger women and younger men are to be taught, and they are not all the same. The passage states that younger women are to be taught to be' subject to' or 'obey' their husbands, indicating that there is a differing level of authority. The passage also states at this point, in the instruction to younger women in relation to being subject to their husbands, this is done so that 'no one will malign the word of God', pointing the importance of these instructions. While all Christians are of the same worth, all do not have the same levels of responsibility or authority, in this life and the next.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 25, 2016 5:10 am

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, again scripture demonstrates that there are differing levels of authority in this life and the next. In this life 'the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God..' 1 Cor 11, clearly differing levels of authority.


Once again, the justification of the system of hierarchialsim rears it's ugly "head" :wink: on the basis of two words; head and submit in an effort to marginalize the "female" behaviors and elevate the "male" behaviors. In order to arrive at this conclusion in 1 Cor. 11, (1) you must deny the fact that Christ is fully God and fully man. He is not eternally subordinate. (2) You must also deny that Christ is the "head" of every woman. (3) Moreover, you must conclude (based on the man/woman designation rather than husband/wife) that every woman as being subordinate to every man which must include single, widowed, divorced, and young. All of these are totally contrary to the message of the gospel.

However, if you understand the word "head" as source or origin, you will arrive at the same conclusion Paul does and no such contradiction exists.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.

Also in the church, overseers who are to take care of God's church, must meet the listed requirements to qualify for the position (1 Tim 3), which not all Christians can meet, not all Christians can be overseers or deacons, even in the church there are levels of authority.

In the life to come there will be Christians who are sitting on thrones judging Israel, there are those called kings of nations, and there are those who will sit at Jesus' right and left hand. While there will be gifts and crowns in the life to com, there will also be differing levels of authority, just a there are in this life.


I'd rather confine our discussion to the topic at hand; marriage. If you wish to discuss levels of authority in the church or in heaven, feel free to start another thread or search for previous debates on these topics.

When Jesus states in Matt 20 'You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them..', He is not denying that they are rulers or in authority, He is commenting on how they rule, they 'lord it over them', He shows disdain not for their having authority but how they use it. 'Lording it' is interpreted as exercising dominion, more of a reference to being overbearing, arrogant, exerting even more authority than required. While Christians may be in positions of authority, they are to exercise their limited authority in humility and in service not in arrogance, 'whoever wants to become great must be your servant'.


Please post scripture giving Christian husbands authority over their wives or over other Christians. Jesus did not say Christians in authority should rule as a servant; He said they shall be a servant/slave.

The passage in Titus 2 states what older men, older women, younger women and younger men are to be taught, and they are not all the same. The passage states that younger women are to be taught to be' subject to' or 'obey' their husbands, indicating that there is a differing level of authority.


1whowaits, are you interpreting this passage to mean that all men have authority over all women and all women are in a subordinate position under all men? If so, you must (1) provide evidence that all men were given this authority, and (2) ignore 59 other verses that contradict this hierarchical arrangement and confirm one of mutual behavior and treatment of all believers to all believers.

And since slaves are mentioned in the same passage, can we assume this is an endorsement of slavery today as the preferred arrangement?

I'd also be interested in knowing if you are attributing this passage as relating to marriage or to the church? Since the same "old" man and "old" woman suddenly become elders as an office of authority in the church....minus the old women of course. :roll:

And last, I posted this scriptures and perhaps you overlooked them:

Cor. 16:16 .... that you also be in subjection to such men and to everyone who helps in the work and labors.

1Pet. 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another....

Eph 5:21 .....submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.

Titus 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities....


Do you believe that while all believers are to submit to one another, but that husbands are excluded from the directive to submit in marriage?
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Wed May 25, 2016 5:43 am

Abiding wrote...
Once again, the justification of the system of hierarchialsim rears it's ugly "head" :wink: on the basis of two words; head and submit in an effort to marginalize the "female" behaviors and elevate the "male" behaviors.


I have not seen anybody trying to marginalize anybody. I suspect you see through a filter.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Wed May 25, 2016 7:29 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:David, at some point those children must make their own decisions and choices regardless of the training or lack of training they received from their parents. The training has some influence, of course, and behavior witnessed and learned need not be observed if found to be detrimental.


There was more to life than just family's, peer pressure in schools and playgrounds, TV and it's pretend reflection of life. TV that is popular gets a hold of many, like your Archie Bunker reference. Many saw it as humor, a response to social issues. The husband here is mistaken in his opinions of course,the wife supports him as she is his dutiful wife. On occasion she gets to utter some meaningful words that we all can appreciate, and look to the male figure as all wet, and nearly unteachable, and near useless in our new modern society. While some found this show to be funny, I found it to be reprehensible, barely ever watched it. I didn't care even back then for the denigration of the male of the species, nor the attitude being ingrained in young women, the pillars of the war between the sexes we are still in today.

Oh, David, I've seen enough explanations to last a lifetime. What is glaringly absent, however, is scriptural support or evidence for those narratives.


So you agree then the specific instructions to husband and wife are about how to overcome their natural and perceived instinctive and cultural roles as man and woman, through Sacrifice/submission of both husband/wife into one flesh ? In Christ, in this 'one flesh' is found the greatest love, agapao, for each other, they both submit to each other, they both rule each other, but not as in 'over', in that they are making themselves into their 'own one flesh' in and through time. Having been in a 'one flesh' marriage, twice, I found it to be wonderful as time went on. There is a comfort and trust there I have not seen anywhere else on this planet earth in the later years of both, despite the persistent troubles of the world.

Now as I have neither anymore, I am hoping for this comfort with Christ as my husband. I have been a prodigal son, and an errant wife, I gather, I suppose I deserve what appears to be coming, for the second time. Should have read the unequally yoked thread. But, I was in denial at that time.

Jesus prayed:

Joh 17:15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. John 17:15-17[/quote]

No I am not of this world, and it cannot hold me. Maybe my work is finished here. Maybe there is another kind of work for me to do after this. Anyway, the tough part is coming, we shall see who meets it on their feet.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 25, 2016 2:41 pm

Exit40 wrote:So you agree then the specific instructions to husband and wife are about how to overcome their natural and perceived instinctive and cultural roles as man and woman,


David, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by perceived instinctive and cultural roles. But I don't think there's any such thing as traits common to all men or all women. Some common traits, possibly. I see those as mostly learned behaviors/traits absorbed via numerous sources whether intentional or unintentional, they become part of one's "portfolio" of traits to be used for good or bad purposes.

Each individual is unique in their backgrounds, strengths, weaknesses, likes, dislikes, goals, and life's experiences. When each comes to the Lord, they become a new creation with "old things" passing away and "new things" (spiritual) begin to take precedence over the old, carnal, nature of the flesh. It's a process; a walk; a journey; a race to the finish.

When two people meet there is no guarantee both will be Christian. If one becomes a Christian and the other does not, then one is essentially walking with a different focus (Jesus) than the other but it doesn't mean there can't be mutual love and harmony providing there is respect for the differences. We are called to peace and as 1 Cor. 7 says, there is no guarantee that the spouse will be saved.

Not everyone will marry nor should we expect that marriage is the preferred choice, and I don't think either Jesus or Paul imply that it is. In fact, Paul seems to indicate that marriage is rather a concession or a safeguard against immorality as the result of a lack of self-control. While marriage can be a blessing, statistics as well as history might reflect more difficulties than blessings are the more prevalent results. :wink:

through Sacrifice/submission of both husband/wife into one flesh ?


To define marriage as a union of sacrifice/submission is a narrow definition, don't you think? After all, there are 59 other ways they are to relate to one another. We have been inundated from the pulpit, from books, conferences, Bible studies that try to define "manhood" "femininity" "authentic man" "Proverbs 31 woman" "Servant-leadership" "Loving Submission" ad nauseum as though women didn't know how to be women and men didn't know how to be men. How absurd! You can't possibly be anything other than a man if you were born with a male anatomy and likewise a woman born with female a anatomy. But the intent of this type of bombardment is to prescribe a "role" for each to adopt as the model for their life. God doesn't do that. God never shows partiality or preference for individuals based on their physical body differences. It may sound bizarre, but I have always been fascinated by the zillions of people who each have two eyes, a nose, a mouth, two ears, two arms, etc. and yet are entirely different behind those common outer body parts! And when we say hello or get to know them, we see the characteristics inside the body is what constitutes an individual whether male or female. That's why I object to stereotypes and/or the imposition of "roles." Before we were formed in the womb, God knew who each of us was.

In Christ, in this 'one flesh' is found the greatest love, agapao, for each other, they both submit to each other, they both rule each other, but not as in 'over', in that they are making themselves into their 'own one flesh' in and through time.


Again, I think because we have been inundated with this definition of marriage, we use the same terminology that has been drilled into us for the purpose (imho) of assuring the (unscriptural) label of "headship/authority/leader/etc. and the "submission" of the wife as her primary label.

Husband and wife become a unit; a team; a family. They share similar values, goals, and commitment to one another.

No I am not of this world, and it cannot hold me. Maybe my work is finished here. Maybe there is another kind of work for me to do after this. Anyway, the tough part is coming, we shall see who meets it on their feet.


Our journey encompasses many stages or phases and along with those comes new challenges and ministry. We are never useless in ministry. Today, I encountered a man in a wheelchair who was circling the parking lot asking for a donation. He was 79 yrs. old and said he was homeless and his wife had just died two months ago. When I gave him $20, he nearly cried and took my hand, kissed it, and said, "God bless you." I suggested the Salvation Army could probably give him shelter and food, and he said he had already been there and they said they only took alcoholics, drug addicts, and those homeless with children. We chatted a bit and I assured him he would be in my prayers. It bothered me all day wishing I could have done more, but had to leave him in the Lord's hands. Was it a ministry? Sure. Was it determined by my gender? No, of course not.

We are free to be who we are. When the Jews resisted Paul's ministry, he simply shook his clothing off and said, "Fine! I'm going to the Gentiles!!" (Acts. 18) I love Paul! :grin:

Sorry for being so long-winded...I respect that others may not agree but that's the beauty of the body of Christ in that we all contribute what we have hopefully for the purpose of edification and growth.

David, you are loved and appreciated by many in this FP community and your wisdom and gentle heart are of great value here.
:hugs:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Wed May 25, 2016 8:48 pm

ST, thanks.

Abiding, i would disagree with your comment about hierarchy being 'ugly', hierarchy or differing levels of authority and responsibility are set up by God. And it is God who assigns us the place in life we find ourselves- 'each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him'. 1 Cor 7.

It is God who makes us who we are, and He assigns and calls us to the position He has designed us for, whether male or female, husband or wife. It is not so much the position that we are assigned that the focus is on, but how we perform in the role we given.

We are all of one body and we do submit to each other, but there are still differing levels of authority and responsibility in that body. When Christ is described as the head of the body it is clear that His Lordship and authority is being referenced, a greater level of authority is assigned to the head as it reflects Christ. While every part of the body is important and dependent on the other parts, some parts have a greater authority over the working of the body- 'Now you are the body of Christ and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers.... 1 Cor 12.

God assigns the roles and positions, He creates a hierarchy, not of worth, but of authority and responsibility- 'Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage for you.' Heb 13.

You continue to try to separate how God has set up the church with differing levels of authority from the marriage relationship but the relationship of the husband and wife is designed to reflect the relationship between the Head, Christ, and the Bride, the church. As there is a differing level in authority between the head, Christ, and the church, so to is there a differing level in authority in the relationship between husband and wife, the reflection of the mystery.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby shorttribber on Wed May 25, 2016 9:13 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, thanks.

Abiding, i would disagree with your comment about hierarchy being 'ugly', hierarchy or differing levels of authority and responsibility are set up by God. And it is God who assigns us the place in life we find ourselves- 'each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him'. 1 Cor 7.

It is God who makes us who we are, and He assigns and calls us to the position He has designed us for, whether male or female, husband or wife. It is not so much the position that we are assigned that the focus is on, but how we perform in the role we given.

We are all of one body and we do submit to each other, but there are still differing levels of authority and responsibility in that body. When Christ is described as the head of the body it is clear that His Lordship and authority is being referenced, a greater level of authority is assigned to the head as it reflects Christ. While every part of the body is important and dependent on the other parts, some parts have a greater authority over the working of the body- 'Now you are the body of Christ and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers.... 1 Cor 12.

God assigns the roles and positions, He creates a hierarchy, not of worth, but of authority and responsibility- 'Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage for you.' Heb 13.

You continue to try to separate how God has set up the church with differing levels of authority from the marriage relationship but the relationship of the husband and wife is designed to reflect the relationship between the Head, Christ, and the Bride, the church. As there is a differing level in authority between the head, Christ, and the church, so to is there a differing level in authority in the relationship between husband and wife, the reflection of the mystery.

:a3:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 26, 2016 5:36 am

1whowaits wrote:ST, thanks.


He certainly is a good cheerleader!

Abiding, i would disagree with your comment about hierarchy being 'ugly',


"Rears it's ugly head" is an idiom or cliche: It refers to something that has made an unwelcome appearance or has become a troublesome subject that requires attention.

I used it as a pun on the word "head" used as evidence of a husband's authority in a passage that says absolutely nothing about authority.

hierarchy or differing levels of authority and responsibility are set up by God.


Since we are discussing husbands and wives in marriage, you must provide scriptural support for a differing level of authority between husband and wife and explain why the same authority is designated to both in 1 Cor. 7 and why that changes the minute the two walk out of the bedroom.

And it is God who assigns us the place in life we find ourselves- 'each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him'. 1 Cor 7.


That's not entirely true. Paul tells slaves that if they were slaves when they were called they should try to become free v.21. He also says he thinks it's better to remain single, but if someone lacks self control, they can (and should) marry v.9.

It is God who makes us who we are, and He assigns and calls us to the position He has designed us for, whether male or female, husband or wife. It is not so much the position that we are assigned that the focus is on, but how we perform in the role we given.


Is it your conclusion that God has assigned all males to a position or role of authority?

We are all of one body and we do submit to each other, but there are still differing levels of authority and responsibility in that body.


Greater and lesser levels of authority? Greater and lesser subjection? Jesus consistently refutes the "who is greater" desire by His example for us to follow; humility; serving; laying down His life for His friends; loving one another as He has loved us; the greatest shall be the servant, washing one another's feet; etc. He consistently called out the Pharisees and their system of authority over others in the synagogue.

When Christ is described as the head of the body it is clear that His Lordship and authority is being referenced,


You have not replied to my comment above which I think is the crux of the matter of "lordship and authority" based solely on the word "head." I would appreciate your thoughts on this:

    In order to arrive at this conclusion in 1 Cor. 11, (1) you must deny the fact that Christ is fully God and fully man. He is not eternally subordinate. (2) You must also deny that Christ is the "head" of every woman. (3) Moreover, you must conclude (based on the man/woman designation rather than husband/wife) that every woman as being subordinate to every man which must include single, widowed, divorced, and young. All of these are totally contrary to the message of the gospel.

    However, if you understand the word "head" as source or origin, you will arrive at the same conclusion Paul does and no such contradiction exists.
    1Co 11:12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.

a greater level of authority is assigned to the head as it reflects Christ. While every part of the body is important and dependent on the other parts, some parts have a greater authority over the working of the body- 'Now you are the body of Christ and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers.... 1 Cor 12.

God assigns the roles and positions, He creates a hierarchy, not of worth, but of authority and responsibility- 'Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage for you.' Heb 13.


Please stay on the topic of husbands and wives in marriage. Thanks!

You continue to try to separate how God has set up the church with differing levels of authority from the marriage relationship but the relationship of the husband and wife is designed to reflect the relationship between the Head, Christ, and the Bride, the church. As there is a differing level in authority between the head, Christ, and the church, so to is there a differing level in authority in the relationship between husband and wife, the reflection of the mystery.


Again, 1whowaits, are you basing your entire argument for authority of husbands on one word, "head?" And if so, we must be honest in our interpreting the Eph. passage. The example given for husbands to follow is not authority. It is loving and giving up his very life as Christ did. If you are reading authority into the word "head", you must see the contradictions throughout scripture including the passage where the "head" comes under the authority of his wife. You must also see "levels" of submission to one another; levels of preference to each other; levels of encouragement to one another; etc. And most importantly, you must provide evidence of authority being given to husbands that is not given to wives. We cannot make a valid argument for authority where none is given and ignore authority where it is given in marriage.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby shorttribber on Thu May 26, 2016 12:25 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:He certainly is a good cheerleader!
:banana: :cheer: :banana:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 26, 2016 12:49 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:He certainly is a good cheerleader!
:banana: :cheer: :banana:


I was a pretty good cheerleader myself if I may say so, shorttribber. I once had the honor of cheering for the Harlem Globetrotters with my cheerleading squad!
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Thu May 26, 2016 8:04 pm

ST, thanks again.

Abiding, when Paul uses the term 'head' in reference to Christ, it is clear that he is referring to Christ's authority 'That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but into the age to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be the head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him, who fill everything in every way. Eph 1

Christ has all rule and authority, and is the head over everything for the church and including the church- 'wives submit to husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church..'Eph 5. It is clear that Paul is referring to Jesus' authority as the head, and as Jesus is the head, as He has authority over the church, so to the husband as the head, has authority, over the wife. This would be the straightforward reading of what Paul is writing.

Scripture also refers to 'your husband will rule over you' in Gen 3, and that younger women should be taught to be subject to their husbands in Titus 2. If one is toi be subject to another or to be ruled by another, logically the 'other' must have some type of authority or the statement makes no sense, scripture would be in error. But the scripture is consistent from the OT to the NT, the meaning is clear.

The meaning of head is further confirmed in God's levels of authority or administration- 'the head of every man is Christ, and the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God'. 1 Cor 11. Jesus is fully God as is the Father but Jesus chooses to put Himself under the Father's authority, not in worth or power, likely as an example for all created beings, there can be only One ultimate authority- 'the Son himself will be made subject to him that put under him, so that God may be all in all'. 1 Cor 15. The titles that the Godhead assigns to itself, Father and Son, by definition point to a difference in authority, which would appear to be the obvious intention.

You ask the question whether all men have authority over all women. Man, I sure hope not! Men are in enough trouble as it is. Authority = responsibility = held accountable- 'For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.' 2 Cor 5
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Fri May 27, 2016 7:28 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:David, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by perceived instinctive and cultural roles.


Umm, you answered this a little later in your post.

In fact, Paul seems to indicate that marriage is rather a concession or a safeguard against immorality as the result of a lack of self-control.


To define marriage as a union of sacrifice/submission is a narrow definition, don't you think? After all, there are 59 other ways they are to relate to one another.


The 59 'one anothers' fit nicely into my narrow definition, as I see it. If we have to work backwards to find the foundation, so be it. We still get there.

Sorry for being so long-winded...I respect that others may not agree but that's the beauty of the body of Christ in that we all contribute what we have hopefully for the purpose of edification and growth.


This whole thread is long winded, but I believe it is important we establish a foundation for marriage for Christian couples. For each of us who marry, a man becoming a husband, and a woman becoming a wife, we become a new creature, one flesh, different but as one, complimentary by design. As with being born into the Kingdom, if we keep in mind our First Love, we will receive the blessings of both, the joy of life and the promise of a future.

God Bless You

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 27, 2016 9:57 am

Exit40 wrote:
To define marriage as a union of sacrifice/submission is a narrow definition, don't you think? After all, there are 59 other ways they are to relate to one another.


The 59 'one anothers' fit nicely into my narrow definition, as I see it. If we have to work backwards to find the foundation, so be it. We still get there.


Except the 59 "one anothers" do not include the word "head." That poses a problem, doesn't it? If we interpret the word "head" as authority, and it is absent in the list of 59, isn't the logical conclusion that the word doesn't mean authority at all for four reasons: 1) the Eph. passage nowhere uses the word authority, leader, or ruler and 2) the example clearly enjoined upon husbands is the same love that Jesus had in laying down His life for the women and men who are believers and 3) nowhere are believers told to have authority or rule over other believers except in 1 Cor. 7 where it is mutual and 4) all believers are told to submit to one another in Eph. 5:21.

This whole thread is long winded, but I believe it is important we establish a foundation for marriage for Christian couples. For each of us who marry, a man becoming a husband, and a woman becoming a wife, we become a new creature, one flesh, different but as one, complimentary by design.


The premise for becoming one flesh is " For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh? Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. (Gen.2:24; Matt. 19-56; Mark 10:5-9; and Eph. 5:31)

Clearly the man leaves his father and mother. Clearly he should cleave/be glued to his wife. Then they will become one flesh.

Again, the message in Eph. 5:31 for the man is that he follow the example of Jesus leaving His heavenly Father to dwell with us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us


Nowhere is the woman told to leave her parents. Why? Thoughts?
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 27, 2016 3:11 pm

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, when Paul uses the term 'head' in reference to Christ, it is clear that he is referring to Christ's authority 'That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but into the age to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be the head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him, who fill everything in every way. Eph 1


1whowaits, no one is questioning the authority of Jesus Christ nor that fact that He was fully God and fully man. What is important that seems to be overlooked is that His humbling Himself and emptying Himself does not equate to the authority of males over females nor husbands over wives. To equate the word Head with authority in the passages that speak of nothing but love, sacrifice, and surrendering is to totally read something that simply isn't there. Even if it did mention the authority of Jesus in Eph. 5 (although it absolutely does not) to assume that husbands somehow inherit the authority of Christ is almost blasphemous imho. He nowhere gives His authority to mankind to use over others. He does, however, give us authority over demons but even then, it's authority in HIS name.

Jesus gave Himself for a little while as human for our salvation.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

In His humanity, He is able to sympathize with our humanity and it's weaknesses.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

Christ has all rule and authority, and is the head over everything for the church and including the church- 'wives submit to husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church..'Eph 5. It is clear that Paul is referring to Jesus' authority as the head, and as Jesus is the head, as He has authority over the church, so to the husband as the head, has authority, over the wife. This would be the straightforward reading of what Paul is writing.


There is no mention of rule or authority in these passages. Why in the world husbands surmise they are entitled to inherit authority because Jesus has authority is beyond me. I'd be interested in knowing why you think being males are entitled to authority over females.

Scripture also refers to 'your husband will rule over you' in Gen 3, and that younger women should be taught to be subject to their husbands in Titus 2. If one is toi be subject to another or to be ruled by another, logically the 'other' must have some type of authority or the statement makes no sense, scripture would be in error.


I've already refuted these claims of authority several times. One problem is that although scripture speaks of subjection or submission of all believers a number of times as I noted above, you seem to exempt him from the "submit to one another" in the Eph. 5 passage. You also are ignoring the mutual authority of the husband and wife in 1 Cor. 7. That's what I call selective literalism.

But the scripture is consistent from the OT to the NT, the meaning is clear.


No, what is consistently clear from the OT to the NT (and beyond) is the desire for power, control, and authority over others and this carnal desire has manifested itself in slavery, human sacrifice, sex trafficking, rape, polygamy, and oppression.

The meaning of head is further confirmed in God's levels of authority or administration- 'the head of every man is Christ, and the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God'. 1 Cor 11.


As I posted above:

In order to arrive at this conclusion in 1 Cor. 11, (1) you must deny the fact that Christ is fully God and fully man. He is not eternally subordinate. (2) You must also deny that Christ is the "head" of every woman. (3) Moreover, you must conclude (based on the man/woman designation rather than husband/wife) that every woman as being subordinate to every man which must include single, widowed, divorced, and young. All of these are totally contrary to the message of the gospel.

However, if you understand the word "head" as source or origin, you will arrive at the same conclusion Paul does and no such contradiction exists.
1Cor. 11:12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.


In addition to the 3 points above, verse 17 erroneously states that the man reflects the image and glory of God but the woman is the glory of the man. This clearly contradicts Gen. 1:26-27 that both the man and the woman were created in the image and likeness of God.

Since Paul's letter to the Corinthians addresses the problems in that church; i.e. divisions, incest, morality, marriage, food offered to idols, etc., this chapter 11 focuses on the question of veiling of women and Paul skillfully tells them that her hair is covering her head. He said, "Now concerning the things about which you wrote....1Cor. 7:1"

Jesus is fully God as is the Father but Jesus chooses to put Himself under the Father's authority, not in worth or power, likely as an example for all created beings, there can be only One ultimate authority- 'the Son himself will be made subject to him that put under him, so that God may be all in all'. 1 Cor 15. The titles that the Godhead assigns to itself, Father and Son, by definition point to a difference in authority, which would appear to be the obvious intention.


1whowaits, I must refer you to the Statement of Faith established by Herb Peters regarding the Trinity:

9. The Trinity - The tri-equality, tri-essental (of the same essence), and the tri-eternality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

You ask the question whether all men have authority over all women. Man, I sure hope not! Men are in enough trouble as it is.-


And yet you quote 1 Cor. 11 which states "the man is the head of a woman."
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Fri May 27, 2016 6:03 pm

Abiding wrote

There is no mention of rule or authority in these passages. Why in the world husbands surmise they are entitled to inherit authority because Jesus has authority is beyond me. I'd be interested in knowing why you think being males are entitled to authority over females


Throughout this thread you have equated the role of husband with the sex of male. You have equated the role of wife with the sex of female. Also throughout this thread you have argued that men do not have authority over women.

This topic is not about sex. It is about the roles of husband and wife. You are under the mistaken impression that a wife is a sex and a husband is a sex. This is not so. The church is the bride of Christ. Every male Christian is a member of the church, the bride of Christ. Clearly, if I, being male, am part of the bride then the bride cannot be equated to the sex, female. Because the bride cannot be equated to the sex female, your entire argument regarding the equivalency of the sexes has absolutely no bearing on this discussion.

I am a male. I am, in part, the bride of Christ.
How then can the meaning of the word "wife" or "bride" be defined using the sex of the person occupying the role?

Arguing husbands do not have authority over wives because men do not have authority over women is like arguing
planets cannot orbit the sun because the sun and the planets have equivalent electrical charges.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 27, 2016 6:35 pm

keithareilly wrote:Abiding wrote

There is no mention of rule or authority in these passages. Why in the world husbands surmise they are entitled to inherit authority because Jesus has authority is beyond me. I'd be interested in knowing why you think being males are entitled to authority over females


Throughout this thread you have equated the role of husband with the sex of male. You have equated the role of wife with the sex of female. Also throughout this thread you have argued that men do not have authority over women.


Keith, are husbands not male and wives not female?

Of importance is that there are no "roles" specified for husbands or wives or for males or females. There are behaviors for husbands and wives; males and females; Jews and Greeks; slaves and free. The behaviors are common to all believers without exception regardless of their marital status, ethnicity, or gender.

This topic is not about sex. It is about the roles of husband and wife. You are under the mistaken impression that a wife is a sex and a husband is a sex.


The word wife describes a gender as does the word husband describe a gender.

This is not so. The church is the bride of Christ. Every male Christian is a member of the church, the bride of Christ. Clearly, if I, being male, am part of the bride then the bride cannot be equated to the sex, female. Because the bride cannot be equated to the sex female, your entire argument regarding the equivalency of the sexes has absolutely no bearing on this discussion.


Keith, the Lamb who marries the bride is a metaphor and figurative in nature. Jesus isn't really a Lamb.

Rev 19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."

The relationship of love between God and His people is often spoken of in terms of a marriage.

Arguing husbands do not have authority over wives because men do not have authority over women is like arguing
planets cannot orbit the sun because the sun and the planets have equivalent electrical charges.


If husbands are men and they have authority over wives who are women, why is that not an obvious assignment of authority (or some prefer to call it a responsibility) to one gender to the exclusion of the other gender?
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Fri May 27, 2016 8:58 pm

Just thought i would attempt to clarify some misconceptions. One can be a servant and hold a level of authority at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive. A servant does not have authority over his master but he can be given authority by his master over other servants. So a husband can be a servant and have authority over his wife at the same time. And husband and wife can submit to each other as Christians and the husband still retain his position of authority in the family (the husband is the head of the wife..). Ina similar manner in the church overseers are servants but they are given a level of authority over other Christians- 'Obey your leaders and submit to their authority..' Heb 13

Submission of the wife to the authority of the husband benefits the wife more than the husband, in regards to rewards in the life to come. As Paul states we must all stand before the judgement seat of Christ and what we have done will be reviewed, or tested by fire. We will receive rewards based on our own actions not the actions of others.

If a husband carries out the position God has assigned to him well, he will be rewarded on that basis. If the wife submits or rebels against the husbands authority and the husband has done as the Lord directs, the husband suffers no loss, his reward in the life to come is the same (although this life could be much more pleasant).

If the wife submits to the authority of the husband as to the Lord, she is rewarded, not because the husband deserved her submission, but because the wife did as the Lord asked. The reward of the wife is based on following what the Lord directs, not on whether she thinks the husband should have authority or not, all that matters is following the Lord's direction. What does the Lord direct? 'Wives, submit to your husbands as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands love your wives and do not be harsh with them' Col 3, Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord...Husbands love your wives..'Eph 5
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby shorttribber on Sat May 28, 2016 12:13 am

1whowaits wrote:Just thought i would attempt to clarify some misconceptions. One can be a servant and hold a level of authority at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive. A servant does not have authority over his master but he can be given authority by his master over other servants. So a husband can be a servant and have authority over his wife at the same time. And husband and wife can submit to each other as Christians and the husband still retain his position of authority in the family (the husband is the head of the wife..). Ina similar manner in the church overseers are servants but they are given a level of authority over other Christians- 'Obey your leaders and submit to their authority..' Heb 13

Submission of the wife to the authority of the husband benefits the wife more than the husband, in regards to rewards in the life to come. As Paul states we must all stand before the judgement seat of Christ and what we have done will be reviewed, or tested by fire. We will receive rewards based on our own actions not the actions of others.

If a husband carries out the position God has assigned to him well, he will be rewarded on that basis. If the wife submits or rebels against the husbands authority and the husband has done as the Lord directs, the husband suffers no loss, his reward in the life to come is the same (although this life could be much more pleasant).

If the wife submits to the authority of the husband as to the Lord, she is rewarded, not because the husband deserved her submission, but because the wife did as the Lord asked. The reward of the wife is based on following what the Lord directs, not on whether she thinks the husband should have authority or not, all that matters is following the Lord's direction. What does the Lord direct? 'Wives, submit to your husbands as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands love your wives and do not be harsh with them' Col 3, Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord...Husbands love your wives..'Eph 5

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Sat May 28, 2016 7:33 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Except the 59 "one anothers" do not include the word "head." That poses a problem, doesn't it? If we interpret the word "head" as authority, and it is absent in the list of 59, isn't the logical conclusion that the word doesn't mean authority at all for four reasons: ....


I guess I'm not explaining myself well enough, or maybe you aren't reading my posts. I made no mention of 'head' regarding the 59 one anothers. I actually do agree with you Abiding, can you see that ? We may have a few small differences of opinion on the definitions or terms but I believe we are in nearly perfect agreement. Really.

The premise for becoming one flesh is " For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh? Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. (Gen.2:24; Matt. 19-56; Mark 10:5-9; and Eph. 5:31)

Clearly the man leaves his father and mother. Clearly he should cleave/be glued to his wife. Then they will become one flesh.

Again, the message in Eph. 5:31 for the man is that he follow the example of Jesus leaving His heavenly Father to dwell with us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us


Nowhere is the woman told to leave her parents. Why? Thoughts?


Because she isn't the head. And this isn't about exousia authority, it is about agape sacrifice. It is the answer to the mystery of Christ and His Church, us. And the related Scriptures address both human carnal instincts and roles assigned by our cultures to each gender. If we can understand and follow these passages we can approach a type of Heaven on Earth. A happy marriage is nearly that I believe.

There is a saying in the horse training world, two hearts one mind, referring to the way in which the rider and the horse move together. Dressage being the finest expression or display of that, it requires much time spent together in training to perform. A pattern is followed which the rider directs, but as time goes on the horse knows the pattern too and does it with the rider, as if both are one, no one being able to tell who is in charge. In reality, no one is in this pair. They move together, in time to music. A great dressage performance is really something to see, especially for a horseman, but nearly everyone can appreciate the beauty of it. That being said, please don't read into this a 'head' type example. I am just trying to explain the oneness that can be achieved when two work together.

Here is another example from Scripture about our oneness, in Christ ....

Rev 19:5-6
And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth...


A voice of many waters, speaking as one. Who is this great multitude ?

ev 19:1¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:..

It's the Church, the Saints. As one with Christ, He thinks it, we speak it, simultaneously, as one. We are His expression, and we love it so. This is just about the time of the marriage of the Lamb and the Bride. And of course this oneness is nearly perfected here.

I don't know how to explain it any better.

God Bless

David
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat May 28, 2016 11:34 am

Exit40 wrote:I guess I'm not explaining myself well enough, or maybe you aren't reading my posts. I made no mention of 'head' regarding the 59 one anothers. I actually do agree with you Abiding, can you see that ? We may have a few small differences of opinion on the definitions or terms but I believe we are in nearly perfect agreement. Really.


I surely am reading your comments as posted, David. I made mention of the fact that the word "head" was not in the list of 59 one-anothers because I was certain it would be presented again based on it's popularity albeit void of definitive meaning. And sure enough it did....:)

Nowhere is the woman told to leave her parents. Why? Thoughts?

Because she isn't the head. And this isn't about exousia authority, it is about agape sacrifice. It is the answer to the mystery of Christ and His Church, us. And the related Scriptures address both human carnal instincts and roles assigned by our cultures to each gender. If we can understand and follow these passages we can approach a type of Heaven on Earth. A happy marriage is nearly that I believe.


And this example....

There is a saying in the horse training world, two hearts one mind, referring to the way in which the rider and the horse move together. Dressage being the finest expression or display of that, it requires much time spent together in training to perform. A pattern is followed which the rider directs, but as time goes on the horse knows the pattern too and does it with the rider, as if both are one, no one being able to tell who is in charge. In reality, no one is in this pair. They move together, in time to music. A great dressage performance is really something to see, especially for a horseman, but nearly everyone can appreciate the beauty of it. That being said, please don't read into this a 'head' type example. I am just trying to explain the oneness that can be achieved when two work together.


David, I've never quite understood how non-human relationships can be compared in any way as examples of human to human interactions. That goes for examples that use inanimate objects as tools for learning human relationships. You can beg the use of "rider directs" and "who is in charge" as unintended phrases, but a horse will do absolutely nothing but eat and sleep unless it is trained to perform in other patterns according to the desired use of it's owner whether or not "no one is able to tell...." . Not an acceptable example of a husband and wife in a marital union imo as no one "directs" and no one is "in charge."

No offense intended, but this is just one of many deflections I've noted throughout this thread. In order to avoid very pointed questions and/or challenges, the subject is veered away to another topic in an effort to persuade others to see some semblance of proof from an unrelated scripture. I did notice you avoided using the word "head" by referring to "sacrifice/submission" but again, the only directive a husband receives is to love his wife. So I see this exchange of words as a deflection from what the scripture actually says and how we are understanding it. I also see the strong resistance to associate submission to husbands even though it is clearly enjoined upon all believers.

Perhaps later this afternoon, I will find time to list several of those deflections.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Sat May 28, 2016 7:19 pm

keithareilly wrote:Abiding wrote

There is no mention of rule or authority in these passages. Why in the world husbands surmise they are entitled to inherit authority because Jesus has authority is beyond me. I'd be interested in knowing why you think being males are entitled to authority over females


Throughout this thread you have equated the role of husband with the sex of male. You have equated the role of wife with the sex of female. Also throughout this thread you have argued that men do not have authority over women.

This topic is not about sex. It is about the roles of husband and wife. You are under the mistaken impression that a wife is a sex and a husband is a sex. This is not so. The church is the bride of Christ. Every male Christian is a member of the church, the bride of Christ. Clearly, if I, being male, am part of the bride then the bride cannot be equated to the sex, female. Because the bride cannot be equated to the sex female, your entire argument regarding the equivalency of the sexes has absolutely no bearing on this discussion.

I am a male. I am, in part, the bride of Christ.
How then can the meaning of the word "wife" or "bride" be defined using the sex of the person occupying the role?

Arguing husbands do not have authority over wives because men do not have authority over women is like arguing
planets cannot orbit the sun because the sun and the planets have equivalent electrical charges.

Keith


Fantastically stated Keith! :a2:

It isn't a gender issue when it comes to marriage. Especially when Jesus marries His BRIDE ...... The Church......made of male/female believers.

Perhaps this little seed will sink into some good soil :grin:

Submission is an act of obedience by the slave, wife to husband, church to Christ.

Do or don't do.

Your choice.

Heaven could be a completely new playground for those who hate submission. Then again, the hierarchy of scripture has been pretty clearly stated in this thread. I imagine, when we are made new, we won't buck and ball so much. :alrighty:

Amen Brother!
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Sat May 28, 2016 8:46 pm

ST, thanks again and again.

Abiding, regarding the eternal subjection of Christ term you use, there is some difficulty in discussing aspects of the Trinity because we do not know everything about the Trinity, there is still much mystery surrounding them, but i will make an attempt to explain my view.

Jesus always has been and always will be God, even as a man on this earth He stated 'I and the Father are one' (John 10), 'one' referring to Jesus being of the same essence as the Father, Jesus was still fully God as was the Father, but not the identical person of the Father.

And yet while Jesus was on earth, still fully God, He humbled Himself and submitted to the will of the Father -'Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant..' Phil 2, and 'I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by Himself, he can only do what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does'. John 5

So Jesus, while being fully God, chose to submit Himself to the will of the Father, only doing what the Father did. Jesus submitted His will to the Father, and yet Jesus and the Father are one, should they not have the same will? Is there a possibility that Jesus could not do the will of the Father, seeing that Jesus and the Father are one? Of course not, it would make no sense.

Why would Jesus, God, have to submit to the Father, also God, if they are of the same essence, both God? 'Let this mind be also in you that was in Christ Jesus....', Jesus submits as an example to us, His mind or attitude should be our attitude, we should follow His example, as He submits to the will of the Father so should we.

So when Paul states in 1 Cor 15 'Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father....then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under Him, so that God may be all in all.', he is indicating that at the end of the millenium, Jesus, fully God, will be subject to the Father, also God, so that God the Father is all in all.

Again, Jesus is fully God, the Father is fully God. and they would have the same will, why would Christ be subject to the Father? 'Let this mind also be in you....' It is all about submitting to the will of God, when One who is fully God submits to the Father who is fully God, the example is set, and everyone else will follow it for eternity.

So when Paul states in 1 Cor 11 'that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God', he means what he says, and what he clearly states is consistent with the rest of scripture, the hierarchy of God stands.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby shorttribber on Sat May 28, 2016 9:54 pm

1whowaits wrote:So when Paul states in 1 Cor 11 'that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God', he means what he says, and what he clearly states is consistent with the rest of scripture, the hierarchy of God stands.

To all of the post :a3:
Especially to the quote above.

.......................................Yes, He does mean what He says.................................................
...................................................Psalm 119..................................................................
.....................................................LAMED....................................................................
............................89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.......................................

So........we can Think His Word means Many things...........But what We Think doesn't matter.
Soon, Very Soon, He will Confirm That.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Sun May 29, 2016 5:55 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:David, I've never quite understood how non-human relationships can be compared in any way as examples of human to human interactions.


I guess you just don't understand love then Abiding. We are told to preach the Gospel to everyone and everything. We are told all of Creation groans in the waiting. Is this not about agape love ?

That goes for examples that use inanimate objects as tools for learning human relationships. You can beg the use of "rider directs" and "who is in charge" as unintended phrases, but a horse will do absolutely nothing but eat and sleep unless it is trained to perform in other patterns according to the desired use of it's owner whether or not "no one is able to tell...." . Not an acceptable example of a husband and wife in a marital union imo as no one "directs" and no one is "in charge."


OK maybe not the best use of an example, but you are mistaken about what it is a horse does. They can do everything on their own that shows up in a dressage performance, naturally. The rider only encourages those motions to the timing of music. They are gregarious, they interact with each other and other beings, they have relationships just like humans do but express themselves as horses. Through repetition the rider and horse move as one comfortably, even enjoying it, together. That you can't see or understand this is inconsequential. A flock of birds or shoal of fish can move almost as one, responding to each other in relation to their surroundings. The point I am making is about the oneness, and in that the joy of life and the promise of a future.

No offense intended, but this is just one of many deflections I've noted throughout this thread. In order to avoid very pointed questions and/or challenges, the subject is veered away to another topic in an effort to persuade others to see some semblance of proof from an unrelated scripture. I did notice you avoided using the word "head" by referring to "sacrifice/submission" but again, the only directive a husband receives is to love his wife. So I see this exchange of words as a deflection from what the scripture actually says and how we are understanding it. I also see the strong resistance to associate submission to husbands even though it is clearly enjoined upon all believers.


Umm, well, that is the word used in Scripture, so what will you have me use if not that word ? Every word Scripture uses you reject as not agreeing with your definition, so come up with some words that are within the definition I can use. And listen, if someone isn't in charge nothing gets done. That doesn't mean one is exclusively, but not being joined at the hip we have to make our own decisions that benefit ourselves or both. No deflection intended, maybe a different understanding of the word is all, for different times and situations in life. And maybe I am still a closet chauvinist and don't know it, but my life isn't built around headship, or what ever, just because I am a man or husband, which I can't help. I have to live in this world like everyone else, I am just trying to figure out how to do it. I have noticed in this discussion I am told what a husband/man isn't, frequently, but I am not told what a wife/woman is, actually. I would like to know sincerely, I want to get this settled if only in my own mind, for my peace of mind, just what it is I am willing to sacrifice my life for. And I do know what submission is, having done it most of my life. Rather I would like that definition to be something other than what the world presents today, that being if anything goes wrong it's the man's fault, but if it goes right there is a good woman behind him. Because that is not about willing sacrifice, it is about being sacrificed with no oneness attached.

God Bless You

David

PS. So why doesn't the wife have to leave home ? Where does she live, or go ? :dunno: Does she get to stay where she was born and live in the comfort of that, not having to sacrifice anything like having to move out ?
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 29, 2016 6:43 am

Spreading Salt wrote:Submission is an act of obedience by the slave, wife to husband, church to Christ.


Spreading Salt, I, for one, am not in any way opposed to submission. I have diligently posted these scriptures that speak to that very behavior.

1) See that you also submit to such ones, and to everyone working and laboring with me. 1Cor. 16:16 (That would include Phoebe who was a deacon of the church in Cenchrea.)

2) Likewise, younger ones, be subject to older ones, and all Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another....1 Peter 5:5 (that would include submission to the older women)

3) .....submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Eph 5:21 (This submission is for all to all)

4) Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. Rom 13:1 (Without a doubt there are women in positions at the federal, state, local, law enforcement, etc.)

5) Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities....Titus 3:1 (No exemptions are noted here)

6) ... the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. Mat 20:26

It's hard to ignore that the Gospel promotes a unity where all Christians pursue relationships of mutual submission and of reciprocal servanthood to one another.

7) Along with these specific submission behaviors, I posted a comprehensive list of other behaviors where none in the body of Christ are said to be exempted regardless of marital status, gender, age, or ethnicity. The gospel is not presented as a male/female law book but one of love, grace, humility, and treating others the way we want to be treated. The behavior toward others is not male/female nor are the gifts of the Holy Spirit male/female.

Since the Word of God is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, (regardless of gender) I have presented sufficient evidence from the gospel to prove mutual, reciprocal treatment toward one another is what is warranted rather than a gospel that condones in any way authority over others in the body.

What is being done here, as far as I can see, is building a hierarchy based on two words; head and submit using a method known as eisegesis. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words. link
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 29, 2016 7:25 am

And lest we forget or overlook the many scriptures throughout the Bible that (at first glance) appear to condone a system of master/slavery, it took the abolitionists many years to correct that erroneous hierarchial belief. The SBC recently elected the first African American as it's president in it's history 1845.

Upon his election, Fred Luter said:

Fred Luter, immediate past president of the predominantly white Southern Baptist Convention, says he mistakenly believed the nation had turned a corner when it elected a black president.

The first African-American president of the Southern Baptist Convention says he believes the United States is more racially divided today than when the country elected its first black president in 2008.


While the body of Christ ought to be the vanguard of breaking down walls of discrimination and injustice, they appear to justify the walls just as they did for thousands of years against the black population.

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27-28

Discrimination bases it's beliefs on color, gender, and ethnicity all in opposition to the gospel and tries to tell us that it's good for us just as one man said:

Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher whom some Republicans and tea party activists have rallied around as he fights federal government efforts to restrict the land his cattle can graze on, suggests in a New York Times story that African Americans might be better off as slaves, given their current situation.

And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 29, 2016 3:20 pm

Exit40 wrote:Umm, well, that is the word used in Scripture, so what will you have me use if not that word ? Every word Scripture uses you reject as not agreeing with your definition, so come up with some words that are within the definition I can use.


David, you are an intelligent man and one who appears to be well versed in scripture so you surely know that a "doctrine" that affects the marriage of every Christian man and woman cannot be based on one word; head. That's especially true when the meaning in its context has been hotly debated for many years. That is the reason I object to it's use to promote and/or condone a hierarchy that results in one having authority over another contrary to the many verses that clearly encourage mutual, reciprocal behavior one to another.

And listen, if someone isn't in charge nothing gets done.


Really? Or are you (not you personally) saying that "nothing gets done" the way you want it to be done within the time-frame you want it done? Are we expecting someone to conform to our expectations?

That doesn't mean one is exclusively, but not being joined at the hip we have to make our own decisions that benefit ourselves or both.


Who decides? Who makes the decisions that benefit both? Disagreements in marriage are normal as they are between friends, family, acquaintances, and other believers. In a marriage, out of love neither overrules the other and agreement is pursued. Perhaps some study on problem solving or counseling is required depending on the seriousness of the disagreement. If one person states it's not all that important to them and gives the go ahead to the other, that constitutes agreement and yielding by that person to the preference of the other.

These two statements are No deflection intended, maybe a different understanding of the word is all, for different times and situations in life. And maybe I am still a closet chauvinist and don't know it, but my life isn't built around headship, or what ever, just because I am a man or husband, which I can't help.


My point exactly, David. We "can't help" being a man or woman. Many years ago my husband and I attended a "Marriage Encounter" which is a weekend set aside to enrich your marriage by a better understanding of one another. One of the wise slogans was "feelings aren't good or bad....they just are." I think the same might apply to differences in marriage. A rule book or legal document isn't required or even necessary to be "just who you are" because you "can't help" being either male or female....you just are!

I personally think you are looking for words, actions, etc. that define male and will be frustrated if you are looking for such definitions in scripture. The Patriarchalists and Calvinists and some Reformers would have you attended conferences to learn how to be an [url=http://www.authenticmanhood.com/] Authentic Man. [/quote] How absurd! Men can't be anything other than male and likewise women can't be anything other than female! We run into problems when we try to fit a round peg into a square hole and pretend we're doing it for the sake of unity. Equally absurd! We are each unique individuals. Not all men are the same nor are all women the same and God doesn't treat us like we are!

I have to live in this world like everyone else, I am just trying to figure out how to do it. I have noticed in this discussion I am told what a husband/man isn't, frequently, but I am not told what a wife/woman is, actually. I would like to know sincerely, I want to get this settled if only in my own mind, for my peace of mind, just what it is I am willing to sacrifice my life for.


Perhaps this will be helpful The Philospher's Stone of Relationships

And I do know what submission is, having done it most of my life.


As have we all most likely. But hopefully we recognize submission isn't a one-way street.

Rather I would like that definition to be something other than what the world presents today, that being if anything goes wrong it's the man's fault, but if it goes right there is a good woman behind him. Because that is not about willing sacrifice, it is about being sacrificed with no oneness attached.


I disagree that that's what the world presents. It's exactly what Christians present. That's why we're having this discussion and why relegating husbands to a "role" is as equally devastating to him as a "role" is to a wife. Husbands use the word "responsibility" very often which can't lead to anything other than a guilt trip when something goes wrong and frustration in trying to make others conform to alleviate the guilt and heavy burden of being "responsible" for the marriage and it's smooth? day-to-day journey. Nonsense! No individual is responsible for the actions, failures, or behaviors of another.

PS. So why doesn't the wife have to leave home ? Where does she live, or go ? :dunno: Does she get to stay where she was born and live in the comfort of that, not having to sacrifice anything like having to move out ?


This will likely take us beyond the lengthy thread we already have, but historically and biblically, the abuse of wives has occurred when they were removed from their tents, tribes, and/or communities where they encountered a measure of isolation and were often taken as spoils of war. You will remember when Jacob was removing Rachel and Lea from their home, Laban said to him, "Then Laban said to Jacob, "What have you done by deceiving me and carrying away my daughters like captives of the sword?" Gen 31:26 Then he made Jacob swear he would not mistreat his daughters since they were being taken away from their home. "If you mistreat my daughters, or if you take wives besides my daughters, although no man is with us, see, God is witness between you and me." Gen 31:50 And they made a covenant between them as an agreement.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Sun May 29, 2016 3:36 pm

Abiding, you appear to equate differing levels of authority with slavery, and that the mutual submission of believers can not cannot exist if someone has a position of authority over another, which is not true.

I would agree that Christians should submit to each other in the Lord, but in management of the affairs of the church God appoints overseers, those who have authority to manage, authority which other Christians should recognize( Heb 13 -obey your leaders and submit to their authority). It is not slavery, Christians can choose to reject authority that has been appointed in the church, but in doing so they may be rejecting God's authority if the one with authority was intended by God to be in that position. Willing submission to an authority is not slavery, it is an act of the will, a choice is made, in slavery there is no choice, usually (bondservant).

The same can be true of the husband and wife relationship, there can be mutual submission in the Lord, but in matters of management of the marriage and family, the husband has a position of authority. The wife is not a slave, she can reject the husband's position, but by doing so she can reject God's authority if God placed the husband in that position. The submission is voluntary, it is not slavery, it is an act of the will, a choice is made.

Authority refers more to a position to which there can be either voluntary or forced submission, in the body of Christ the submission is voluntary, it is not slavery, it is not forced. But if we choose not to submit to a position that God has set up, then we will at some point have to deal with the Lord, the One who loved us and bought us with price.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 29, 2016 4:43 pm

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, you appear to equate differing levels of authority with slavery, and that the mutual submission of believers can not cannot exist if someone has a position of authority over another, which is not true.

1whowaits, you can't deny the scriptures that mention submission of slaves to masters. My point in mentioning this is to show that while slavery existed throughout history, that doesn't mean it was God's design. Likewise, it's obvious that polygamy, concubinage, a system of eunuchs, mandatory circumcision, ruling bodies such as the Sanhedrin, etc. are not God's intent for the new testament. Some are cultural customs and traditions; some were religious sects and many were in direct opposition to God's design.

I would agree that Christians should submit to each other in the Lord,

Would you agree that would include husbands and wives to each other?

but in management of the affairs of the church God appoints overseers, those who have authority to manage, authority which other Christians should recognize( Heb 13 -obey your leaders and submit to their authority). It is not slavery, Christians can choose to reject authority that has been appointed in the church, but in doing so they may be rejecting God's authority if the one with authority was intended by God to be in that position. Willing submission to an authority is not slavery, it is an act of the will, a choice is made, in slavery there is no choice, usually (bondservant).

Authority and Church Life: Part 1

Authority and Church Life: Part 2

Authority and Church Life: Part 3

Authority and Church Life: Part 4

The same can be true of the husband and wife relationship, there can be mutual submission in the Lord, but in matters of management of the marriage and family, the husband has a position of authority.

There is no scripture that says husbands have a position of authority in marriage other than the same authority the wife has which makes authority mutual and reciprocal. Of interest is 1 Tim. 5:14 which seems to give young married women who were formerly widows, the rule of the home (not over an individual):

(RV) I desire therefore that the younger widows marry, bear children, rule (G3613) the household, give none occasion to the adversary for reviling....

G3613
oikodespoteō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be master (or head) of a house
2) to rule a household, manage family affairs

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Mon May 30, 2016 8:06 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
David, you are an intelligent man and one who appears to be well versed in scripture so you surely know that a "doctrine" that affects the marriage of every Christian man and woman cannot be based on one word; head.


Abiding you appear to be an intelligent woman well versed in Scripture too. However you keep assigning to me the doctrine I have repeatedly rejected. Sigh....

That's especially true when the meaning in its context has been hotly debated for many years. That is the reason I object to it's use to promote and/or condone a hierarchy that results in one having authority over another contrary to the many verses that clearly encourage mutual, reciprocal behavior one to another.


Well, as one who is not promoting rulership of one over another, I still have to use the words found in Scripture. Head came up again, despite my not wanting to even say it, as you get going on that to the exclusion of other points I make. You asked why the woman doesn't have to leave the parent : answer, and this is Scripture here I am just relaying the information, she is not the head. Scripture assigns what the 'head does', leave the parents, and the mystery of the Church and Christ is right here. You asked, I answered, according to Scripture. That you can't accept a word Scripture uses is amazing to me. I do understand why you keep going there though...

Really? Or are you (not you personally) saying that "nothing gets done" the way you want it to be done within the time-frame you want it done? Are we expecting someone to conform to our expectations?


That doesn't mean one is exclusively, but not being joined at the hip we have to make our own decisions that benefit ourselves or both.


Who decides? Who makes the decisions that benefit both?


Whoever has Too !!!!! Why do you consistently go to the adversarial here ? If both agree to a concept, a decision by one without the other and that falls within that realm is not made out of rebellion. Yet for you it seems it must be. Example, the Proverbs 31 woman running the household, making decisions without hubby, who has his own work to do. Do you really think hubby has nothing to do with the household here? This woman would not even be able to get started without the support of hubby, yet you have sarcastically mentioned he sits around the gate with the elders and praises her, as if that is all he does. You are making assumptions, not decisions, and so are being confronted with those errors. That being said, once this woman gets going and figures out the right decisions to make, as agreed she is supposed to, the household runs properly, and no doubt the hubby has some input, as this is not a vacuum here. Here is where you fail to understand what I am talking about. No one is sitting around being prideful here, certainly not the wife running the household. Everyone is busy, doing what they are supposed to be doing, by agreement first, then by necessity, as that is what we call submission 'to the purpose established, agreed upon, and worked towards'. It is a matter of responsibility, and service towards the goal. The Proverbs woman submits to the household she established and runs, doing what she must to maintain it, as much a servant to it as the other servants working there. Someone has to make the decisions and run the place don't they ? Why do you presume that to be adversarial, as if hubby doesn't want her to have that kind of authority ?

My point exactly, David.


Why do I feel my statement somehow got hijacked into being your idea ? :wink:

I personally think you are looking for words, actions, etc. that define male and will be frustrated if you are looking for such definitions in scripture. The Patriarchalists and Calvinists and some Reformers would have you attended conferences to learn how to be an [url=http://www.authenticmanhood.com/] Authentic Man.


How absurd! Men can't be anything other than male and likewise women can't be anything other than female! We run into problems when we try to fit a round peg into a square hole and pretend we're doing it for the sake of unity. Equally absurd! We are each unique individuals. Not all men are the same nor are all women the same and God doesn't treat us like we are!


I am looking for definitions in Scripture YOU will accept. Nothing more, as I am well established in my manhood and what it means to me. Whatever that seems to mean to you or anyone else is a matter of opinion, which is a right, to have and hold. I do not attempt to influence ones opinions of me, I remain steadfast in being myself. Like it or don't, it is a choice made which I respect, as long as that opinion does not conflict with who I actually am, no issues. But if it doesn't I will correct the errant impression if I can, by my behavior first, then by explanation. I said...

Rather I would like that definition to be something other than what the world presents today, that being if anything goes wrong it's the man's fault, but if it goes right there is a good woman behind him. Because that is not about willing sacrifice, it is about being sacrificed with no oneness attached.


Your response...

I disagree that that's what the world presents. It's exactly what Christians present. That's why we're having this discussion and why relegating husbands to a "role" is as equally devastating to him as a "role" is to a wife. Husbands use the word "responsibility" very often which can't lead to anything other than a guilt trip when something goes wrong and frustration in trying to make others conform to alleviate the guilt and heavy burden of being "responsible" for the marriage and it's smooth? day-to-day journey. Nonsense! No individual is responsible for the actions, failures, or behaviors of another.


You must be living in a different world than I Abiding. Assigning this exclusively to Christians is ridiculous. This concept is worldly, and no doubt some Christians still hold to that part of worldly thought. Regardless, in the rest of the world not liberalized women are more like property than equals. Islam is the most flagrant in it's expression of this. Are you saying muslim and Christian men adhere to the same doctrine ? I do agree about the errant use of the word responsibility though. OMG, another instance of our agreement. I wonder how you are going to turn that around ? But here is where you probably disagree. We are responsible only for ourselves, but to each other in marriage. No guilt involved here, as this is out of love we do this. Now let me point something out. You asked why a woman/wife doesn't have to leave the home and I attempted to answer with what Scripture says. You don't like that word I used, the H word, yet when I ask the same question it is somehow outside the bounds of this discussion and you don't want to answer. Your question...

Nowhere is the woman told to leave her parents. Why? Thoughts?


My question...

PS. So why doesn't the wife have to leave home ? Where does she live, or go ? :dunno: Does she get to stay where she was born and live in the comfort of that, not having to sacrifice anything like having to move out ?


This will likely take us beyond the lengthy thread we already have, but historically and biblically, the abuse of wives has occurred when they were removed from their tents, tribes, and/or communities where they encountered a measure of isolation and were often taken as spoils of war.


This thread is lengthy because we haven't really addressed the mystery and explained it properly. If we had, we wouldn't be on page six. So the mystery remains. And it remains adversarial because we evidently don't understand the nature of the oneness of Christ and His Church, us, all of us together. Maybe we should get out of the instinctive and cultural worldly concepts and get into that relationship, the real meat of the discussion. And not just one anothers, but Christ's relationship with us.

God Bless You

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

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And Grace, my fears relieved.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon May 30, 2016 10:54 am

Exit40 wrote:I am looking for definitions in Scripture YOU will accept. Nothing more, as I am well established in my manhood and what it means to me.


David, I was responding to your comment where it appeared you were/are looking for specific definitions. You said:

And maybe I am still a closet chauvinist and don't know it, but my life isn't built around headship, or what ever, just because I am a man or husband, which I can't help. I have to live in this world like everyone else, I am just trying to figure out how to do it. I have noticed in this discussion I am told what a husband/man isn't, frequently, but I am not told what a wife/woman is, actually. I would like to know sincerely, I want to get this settled if only in my own mind, for my peace of mind, just what it is I am willing to sacrifice my life for.

I was replying to what I thought was some confusion on your part about how you are expected to live as a Christian husband/man and what a wife/woman is. That is what you sincerely wanted to know for your peace of mind. I tried to assure you (failing miserably evidently) that there are no such definitions in scripture but the prevalence of "How to be a Man" books and conferences would lead you to believe that a blueprint is clearly laid out that all men/women live like xyz.

In this post, however, you said, "I am looking for definitions in Scripture YOU will accept. Nothing more, as I am well established in my manhood and what it means to me.

So...once again I'll say that I don't believe there is such a definition in scripture. I accept that Jesus treated every person on the basis of their humanity; not their gender. And once again, I reject stereotypes or efforts (through books, conferences, sermons, or elsewhere) to enforce them on any individual because we are each unique individuals. Hope that clarifies any misunderstanding about what it is you were asking for. I don't see male or female "roles" nor do I see husband or wife "roles" defined in scripture.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Mon May 30, 2016 9:08 pm

Abiding is really stressing the "one another" verses of the New Testament, as the final word on the argument of whether or not the husband has the authority in marriage. Granted, these verses tell all believers how we are to interact with each other.

We have pointed out multiple scriptures stating the wife is to submit to or the husband is the head of (or if you are an equalitarian or whatever - the source) ........

Can anyone point to a scripture where God specifically tells the husband to be submissive to the wife? Anyone?

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Yeah, I don't think there is one.

If God specifically pin points this tiny little duty in the scripture and ignores to reciprocate the same stipulation to the husband, do you think there is a point in it? :a2:

As a woman, does it feel good to let my husband be my authority in the marriage? Well, depends on the issue. Some I will gladly say ----- You go guy! Other times, not so much.

Bottom line is that God has spelled out (specifically to the wife) certain ideals.

Go and do as you feel the Spirit is leading you. Eat the meat or spit it out. Do it to His glory.

This continual battle of proving authority or equality is just plain (no words - sorry). :alrighty:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 31, 2016 4:51 am

Spreading Salt wrote:Abiding is really stressing the "one another" verses of the New Testament, as the final word on the argument of whether or not the husband has the authority in marriage. Granted, these verses tell all believers how we are to interact with each other.


Good morning, Spreading Salt. I'm happy to see we agree that all believers interact with each other in mutual, reciprocal manner. I stress the "one-another" list because it is a comprehensive list/source of behaviors common to all believers.

Can anyone point to a scripture where God specifically tells the husband to be submissive to the wife? Anyone?


I already answered your question about submission in my comment on Sun. May 29 at 9:43 a.m.

This continual battle of proving authority or equality is just plain (no words - sorry).


I'm sorry you see this discussion as a "battle." I see it as an effort to "accurately handle the word of truth" by all who are participating.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Tue May 31, 2016 6:11 am

Abiding, Your question...

"Nowhere is the woman told to leave her parents. Why? Thoughts?"

My question...

"PS. So why doesn't the wife have to leave home ? Where does she live, or go ? :dunno: Does she get to stay where she was born and live in the comfort of that, not having to sacrifice anything like having to move out ?"

Your answer...

"This will likely take us beyond the lengthy thread we already have, but historically and biblically, the abuse of wives has occurred when they were removed from their tents, tribes, and/or communities where they encountered a measure of isolation and were often taken as spoils of war."

Well you asked, so I asked too. Why am I being shut down on this question.

God Bless You
'
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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
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How precious did that Grace appear
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 31, 2016 7:59 am

Exit40 wrote:Well you asked, so I asked too. Why am I being shut down on this question.


David, I thought I answered your question.

This will likely take us beyond the lengthy thread we already have, but historically and biblically, the abuse of wives has occurred when they were removed from their tents, tribes, and/or communities where they encountered a measure of isolation and were often taken as spoils of war. You will remember when Jacob was removing Rachel and Lea from their home, Laban said to him, "Then Laban said to Jacob, "What have you done by deceiving me and carrying away my daughters like captives of the sword?" Gen 31:26 Then he made Jacob swear he would not mistreat his daughters since they were being taken away from their home. "If you mistreat my daughters, or if you take wives besides my daughters, although no man is with us, see, God is witness between you and me." Gen 31:50 And they made a covenant between them as an agreement.


Of the four times the scripture for the man to leave his parents to cleave to his wife is found, the first is in Gen. 2:24; two are spoken to those who apparently think they have the right to put their wives away for any reason,(Mark 10:7-8) and (Matt. 19:5) and once to husbands to love their wives as their own flesh. (Eph. 5:31)

Knowing the nomadic nature of the early tribes, it's easy to see how familial support would benefit and protect wives especially in view of the wars and conflicts and with the surrounding nations in the process of acquiring Canaan. During the days of Judges, we find Naomi a widow without the necessary means to feed herself and her two widowed daughters-in-law and bids them to return to their mothers. And when Ruth refuses to leave her, Naomi asks, "..."My daughter, shall I not seek security for you, that it may be well with you?" Enter Boaz who redeems Ruth from her plight and then: "the women said to Naomi, "Blessed be the LORD, who has not left you this day without a redeemer, and may his name be renowned in Israel! He shall be to you a restorer of life and a nourisher of your old age, for your daughter-in-law who loves you, who is more to you than seven sons, has given birth to him." Ruth 4:14:15.

In the NT, communities of families were the norm and they provided a great measure of protection and support. We know the security found within these when we read of Mary discovering Jesus is not with the caravan of family, friends, and acquaintances as expected.

Hope I've answered your question, David. If not, I'll keep trying.... It's not my intent to shut anyone down.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:05 am

http://www.cmalliance.org/devotions/tozer

The threefold purpose of the Bible is to inform, to inspire faith and to secure obedience. Whenever it is used for any other purpose, it is used wrongly and may do actual injury. The Holy Scriptures will do us good only as we present an open mind to be taught, a tender heart to believe and a surrendered will to obey. If we do these things, then the written Word will surely become to us a transparent lens through which we may gaze upon the Triune God. And so to gaze in faith is to experience a bit of heaven here below.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:03 am

Exit40 wrote:Abiding, Your question...

"Nowhere is the woman told to leave her parents. Why? Thoughts?"

Well you asked, so I asked too.


This was your question Abiding. Which has not been answered. Unless we consider the mystery of Christ and His Church. Christ leaves His Father for the purpose of His Ministry, to go to the Bride of the future, to whom He cleaves. This is the representation for the man to do, and cleave to his wife. As for early tribes being nomadic as a reason for the wives and daughters not leaving the parents, that is pretty flimsy. Wives and daughters were considered more as property, bought, sold, and traded as such. But not in entirety, as they also could be a treasure of sorts. Betrothals were common, and the issue was the husband to be more than likely did not know who his wife to be was, her personality, intelligence, etc. People of religion likely believed God had intended certain men and women to be married, and as such thy honored God by doing that. Honoring God was the important issue, but we being humans we could let things go awry in the relationship, and therefore the honoring of God as well. And that is why we have standards for behavior for men and women, if not definitions, and for husbands and wives also. To meet the standards is to honor God, and receive the blessings of a happy marriage, as our Lord certainly knows all about our humanity and our tendency to mess things up, purposely or otherwise. That being said women were also considered to be the weaker gender, recognized as such, protected and fought over, even as their value is recognized in marriage and the family.

1Pe 3:7 ¶ Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Now please try not to get adversarial over this passage, I mean it as one who takes this to heart, to value and give honor to, recognizing the togetherness of the grace given to both as heirs. What prayers would be hindered by not doing these things ? The prayers for a peaceful and happy life for one. This passage recognizes physical attributes of strength and weakness of the genders, and with the many other passages speaks to the nature and desire of the man to protect and cherish, and the nature of the woman to be protected and cherished. There are no negatives here, this is the way we are designed and the way it has been since the beginning, each giving according to our natures and individual gifts. A darn good arrangement as far as I'm concerned, one worthy of striving for.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
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The hour I first believed.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:49 am

Exit40 wrote:This was your question Abiding. Which has not been answered. Unless we consider the mystery of Christ and His Church. Christ leaves His Father for the purpose of His Ministry, to go to the Bride of the future, to whom He cleaves.


Part of my answer was that very thing, David. My comment on Fri. May 27 at 12:57 said:

The premise for becoming one flesh is " For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh? Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. (Gen.2:24; Matt. 19-56; Mark 10:5-9; and Eph. 5:31)

Clearly the man leaves his father and mother. Clearly he should cleave/be glued to his wife. Then they will become one flesh. Again, the message in Eph. 5:31 for the man is that he follow the example of Jesus leaving His heavenly Father to dwell with us.


So at least that part should have satisfied you as an answer about the man leaving his father and mother to cleave to his wife. Jesus Himself followed that premise for marriage. Two references to the man leaving his father and mother are given by Jesus in response to the Pharisees who were defending the practice of divorcing their wives "for any reason" which caused the necessity of the Writ of Divorce for the protection of the wife who was being sent away.

As for early tribes being nomadic as a reason for the wives and daughters not leaving the parents, that is pretty flimsy.


You only partially quoted my comment about nomadic nature of tribes. Here it is in it's entirety:

"Knowing the nomadic nature of the early tribes, it's easy to see how familial support would benefit and protect wives especially in view of the wars and conflicts and with the surrounding nations in the process of acquiring Canaan".

God knew the effect war would have on a newly married couple and exempted the man from military for a period of one year following their marriage. Here's what He said:

Deu 24:5 "When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken.

Wives and daughters were considered more as property, bought, sold, and traded as such.


We agree about the abuse women encountered. I said much the same above: "but historically and biblically, the abuse of wives has occurred when they were removed from their tents, tribes, and/or communities where they encountered a measure of isolation and were often taken as spoils of war."

Now please try not to get adversarial over this passage, I mean it as one who takes this to heart, to value and give honor to, recognizing the togetherness of the grace given to both as heirs. What prayers would be hindered by not doing these things ? The prayers for a peaceful and happy life for one. This passage recognizes physical attributes of strength and weakness of the genders, and with the many other passages speaks to the nature and desire of the man to protect and cherish, and the nature of the woman to be protected and cherished. There are no negatives here, this is the way we are designed and the way it has been since the beginning, each giving according to our natures and individual gifts. A darn good arrangement as far as I'm concerned, one worthy of striving for.


It's not really fair to label my comments as adversarial, David. Again, the very nature of a debate entails presentation of opposing or clarification of views. While I don't disagree entirely with the verse you've posted in 1 Peter, in it's context it's about (again) behavior so as to not cause slander among the gentiles.

1Peter 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so
1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution,
1Peter 2:18 Servants, be submissive to your masters
1Peter 3:1 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands
1Peter 3:7 You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way

I also find it interesting that you've concluded that the nature of all women is to be protected and cherished and the nature of all men is to protect. But when I suggested the protection of women was the basis for dwelling in the tribe of their immediate and extended families in view of the conflicts and wars with surrounding nations, you didn't seem to see that as valid. Peter, Paul and Jesus were aware of the historic mistreatment of women, children and those taken as slaves in spoils of war, as was Laban when he made Jacob swear he would not mistreat his daughters.

So yes, the stronger should always protect those weaker in physical strength whether it be men in general; husbands in particular; mother and father protect their children; and older siblings protect the younger. However, the prevalence of domestic abuse and sexual assault (even among Christians) prevent us from saying it's the nature of "all" men or all women for that matter.

Hope that wasn't too adversarial, but knowing my dislike for stereotypes, my guess is you expected it but hoped it would be overlooked. My apologies for not being able to fully comply.
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