Husband/Wife Roles?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 17, 2016 10:49 am

Exit40 wrote:Abiding, our 'one anothers' are for all Christians, yes, and do apply to married Christian couples. No where have I ever said they don't.


Thank you. Then we are in agreement that they all apply regardless of marital status, gender, age, and/or ethnicity? (It's a yes or no question unless there is some disagreement)

What I am saying is those passages we are discussing about husband and wife roles are gender specific, and are in addition too, and in no manner taking away from, our 'one anothers'.


We are in complete agreement that marriage was designed as a relationship between one man and one woman. Is that what you meant by labeling marriage as gender specific?

Case in point, 'in Christ' there are no males or females amongst others, yet in marriage there is a husband and there is a wife, one of each gender.


That's not quite the case. There are males and females; Jews and Greeks; as well as slaves and free masters. Paul wasn't erasing the distinctions per se, but rather erasing the partiality shown to some over others based on status, gender, ethnicity or financial status. He is emphasizing the oneness rather than viewing some as better or more privileged than others. That concept is reiterated many times throughout his letters. He specifically speaks to issues that are prevalent historically such as male privilege and power; slavery; Hebrews and their perception of superiority over the uncircumcised. He speaks against showing partiality in treatment of others and emphasizes the impartiality of God as the basis for his correcting the prevailing favoritism and it's inappropriateness in the Body of Christ as we are all children of God.

See his verses leveling the playing field by refuting the practice of elevating some to the marginalization of others:

Gal 2:6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)--

Gal 4:7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son....

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Jas 2:3-4 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," have you not made distinctions among yourselves?....

Therefore the instructions in these specific passages are in fact gender specific. If we cannot agree on that then we must accept anyone marrying anyone else, meaning same gender marriage.


Again, that marriage is between one man and one woman is a given and don't need to even debate such a thing although scripture is sorely lacking the evidence of that being practiced.

We know that is not acceptable, so is it then possible to see the specifics of gender in these passages that say the 'husband/man/male' is to... and the 'wife/woman/female' is to ... without assigning hierarchy in the negative manner you are arguing against, as am I ?


My reason for posting the list of 59 verses was for the very purpose of showing overwhelming evidence of application to all believers without specifying exemptions such as circumcision, race, gender, financial status, fine outward adornment, etc. The 59 will, of course, include these types of persons, but we are not to treat them as privileged or recognize them as being more important based on their outward appearance, status, or certainly not body parts as some might very well be eunuchs.

If you can agree to that, then we agree there is a difference between the genders which our Lord acknowledges....


David, all believers are different from one another. Each is unique; some are weak and some are strong. Some are more nurturing than others. Some are more educated than others. Some are more emotional than others. Some are born with disabilities and/or disease. I could go on and on about the differences between individuals but to assign "sameness" based on anatomy is totally not only untrue, but unscriptural.

....and his separate instructions to each gender,


This is where the "equal BUT different" proponents begin to assign male and female specifics which are not found in the list I provided. If you know of some, please let me know which virtues are assigned to married females that are not included in the list and which virtues are assigned to married males that are not found in the list.

and I mean this as within the NT era of Grace by Christ's so far completed work, encompass all of our 'one anothers' and include intimacy in marriage, and in no way assign a permanent hierarchical role to either.


I'll reserve judgment on agreement until you show the different male/female virtues you think are distinct and/or different from the list of 59. :wink:

PS. I agree the 'curse' is for the serpent and the ground when leaving the Garden. However, the curse on the ground was removed by God post flood.

Gen 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


My point exactly, David. Thank you for posting that scripture. It's additional proof that those who see Gen. 3 as commands and/or punishments for all time along with other obvious scriptures, are inadvertently reading through a filter that is clouded by current teachings. God, Himself, was alleviating the hardships and negative situations Adam and Eve would encounter after being driven from the garden.

I may be mistaken, but I think you and I just agreed to @3 understandings!! :grin:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Tue May 17, 2016 3:05 pm

Abiding, you are looking for a scripture that says man has authority over woman. How about 1 Corinthians 11? This might have already been discussed so I apologize to all, but my goodness this is a long thread!

1 Corinthians 11Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
11 try to imitate me, even as I myself try to imitate the Messiah.
2 Now I praise you because you have remembered everything I told you and observe the traditions just the way I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is the Messiah, and the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of the Messiah is God.

Interlinear Bible uses this noun in the verse:
kefalh
kephalE
G2776
n_ Nom Sg f
HEAD


Strong's Concordance:
2776. kephale kef-al-ay' from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively:--head.


Dictionary online (87 options – I have only listed the ones I felt pertinent to the topic) :
noun
1.
the upper part of the body in humans, joined to the trunk by the neck, containing the brain, eyes, ears, nose, and mouth.
3.
the head considered as the center of the intellect, as of thought, memory, understanding, or emotional control; mind; brain:

4.
the position or place of leadership, greatest authority, or honor.
5.
a person to whom others are subordinate, as the director of an institution or the manager of a department; leader or chief.
6.
a person considered with reference to his or her mind, disposition, attributes, status, etc.:
wise heads; crowned heads.

adjective
39.
first in rank or position; chief; leading; principal:
a head official.

verb (used with object)
44.
to go at the head of or in front of; lead; precede:
to head a list.
45.
to outdo or excel; take the lead in or over:
to head a race; to head one's competitors in a field.
46.
to be the head or chief of (sometimes followed by up):
to head a school; to head up a department.



I think this is the answer. :a2:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Tue May 17, 2016 4:24 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Thank you. Then we are in agreement that they all apply regardless of marital status, gender, age, and/or ethnicity? (It's a yes or no question unless there is some disagreement)


Yes.

We are in complete agreement that marriage was designed as a relationship between one man and one woman. Is that what you meant by labeling marriage as gender specific?


No. My following statement points out there is in fact a gender difference in marriage. To clarify, I meant no specified males or females in the list of 'one anothers'. Sorry I wasn't clear there.

Case in point, 'in Christ' there are no males or females amongst others, yet in marriage there is a husband and there is a wife, one of each gender.


Same gender marriage aside, it being a modern concept, Scripture recognizes and addresses the different genders. Evidence that by the referral to husband and wife. Is this not addressing separate genders ?

That's not quite the case. There are males and females; Jews and Greeks; as well as slaves and free masters. Paul wasn't erasing the distinctions per se, but rather erasing the partiality shown to some over others based on status, gender, ethnicity or financial status...

See his verses leveling the playing field by refuting the practice of elevating some to the marginalization of others:...


Actually, it is the case. They do exist in those regards as the world sees them, and as we see each other. However, and this is where we agree, that does not matter, we are one in Christ. This portion is notable though, only certain Christians are intimate in marriage, and we are called husbands and wives, and given separate verses to show us how we are to be. There are several, but the ones I have been using as the basis of individual instruction are....

Eph 5:22-25 ¶ Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it ...


Again, that marriage is between one man and one woman is a given and don't need to even debate such a thing although scripture is sorely lacking the evidence of that being practiced.


Agreed, but I asked ...

We know that is not acceptable, so is it then possible to see the specifics of gender in these passages that say the 'husband/man/male' is to... and the 'wife/woman/female' is to ... without assigning hierarchy in the negative manner you are arguing against, as am I ?


And your answer was...

My reason for posting the list of 59 verses was for the very purpose of showing overwhelming evidence of application to all believers ... or certainly not body parts as some might very well be eunuchs...


Eunuchs would not be married no doubt, as their status is not the same as a whole male, but only in that regard towards a marriage that can reproduce of itself. I know of no married eunuch in Scripture. The point is here, males and female are Christians too, but they get married and are physically intimate, have instructions for how they are to treat each other as husbands and wives, as well as all the 'one anothers' in the list you provided. then I said...

If you can agree to that, then we agree there is a difference between the genders which our Lord acknowledges....


And you said...

David, all believers are different from one another. Each is unique; some are weak and some are strong. Some are more nurturing than others. Some are more educated than others. Some are more emotional than others. Some are born with disabilities and/or disease. I could go on and on about the differences between individuals but to assign "sameness" based on anatomy is totally not only untrue, but unscriptural.


So who is assigning sameness here, and who is acknowledging differences ? I believe you are confusing the issue, and right here is where I am trying to explain how you are confusing it. We are all the same in Christ, and obviously not in reality, but we are to treat each other with love and respect basically as we are Christians, our 'one anothers' are our guide and instructions. If there is no distinction between husbands and wives, why are there separate verses for them, and for each of them ? This is what I am saying, Scripture recognizes that difference, and gives us separate instructions on how we are to treat each other, as there is physical intimacy involved, a big difference from unmarried Christians. Then I said...

....and his separate instructions to each gender,


Your response...

This is where the "equal BUT different" proponents begin to assign male and female specifics which are not found in the list I provided. If you know of some, please let me know which virtues are assigned to married females that are not included in the list and which virtues are assigned to married males that are not found in the list.


This is where it gets difficult to explain, and so difficult to understand. I understand the tendency to show an imposed worldly hierarchy in the differences of husband and wife. As a husband I understand the nature of instructions to love my wife as Christ loves the Church. This is a giving love, all the way to the point of dying for her. This is not ruling over as in slave woman or concubine, whatever. A husband that has this kind of love does not go around barking out orders to his wife. He does not mistreat her nor ignore any of the 'one anothers' at all, but rather the wife is subject to the greatest of loves, just as Christ has for His Church, that kind of giving love.

It is more difficult for me to explain a wife loving a husband as she loves the Lord. She is to submit to Him, and revere and love Him, as He is the Savior of the Church. She is to love her husband in the same manner. No where in this do I see that she must be subject to abuse, being ordered around, or any kind of mistreatment. Surely our Lord will not do those things, so neither is a husband supposed to.

I brought up the emotions of love people express for each other at their wedding, to joy of life and the promise of a future together. There does come a time when 'the honeymoon is over', but it doesn't have to revert to some kind of owner and slave relationship. In fact, if both the husband and the wife maintain the kind of love expressly described for them in the Scripture, while the honeymoon may end and the business of being married becomes more like work, the foundation will be strong as the remembrance of the initial emotions is right there in the Scriptures for us to see. It will be the continuous giving of love and receiving of love, not the give and take of married life as some think it is. Divorce is 50/50. Marriage is 100/100 in the agape type love I am talking about, the kind the Scriptures are talking about. This is always maintained as the foundation, even as the ebb and flow of life in marriage presents different situation that have to be dealt with. These are our gender specific instructions on how husbands and wives are to love each other. This is on top of any other relationship Christians are to have with each other. Now, I can't explain to a wife how to love a husband that much, but I know what it feels like to receive it. Nor can I tell a husband how to love a wife that much, but I know what that feels like too. It is give and receive, agape love. Not tell and take, exousia authority, for either. Maybe not 'equal but separate', rather 'different but as one'. Cultural definitions seem to have had more weight than Scriptural ones in this topic, but if we keep at it we will properly define, or at least redefine what the words are supposed to mean.

I'll reserve judgment on agreement until you show the different male/female virtues you think are distinct and/or different from the list of 59. :wink:


I think for each of us in a marriage we know what to do to fulfill these instructions, and by all means include the list of 59, and go even further as instructed, always trying to at least. If we do not, we will have a kind of trouble we will not handle well, and a potential resentment that will be carried around. Even if suppressed it will still turn up every here or there making life anything but pleasant.

I may be mistaken, but I think you and I just agreed to @3 understandings!! :grin:


At least, and many more I am certain. I hope I have explained myself better. I hope you can see not only what, but why I am saying what I do. Thanks for taking time to address explicitly, as I have done in return. It gets lengthy but I hardly see a difference in our understanding, although there has been one in our wording.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 17, 2016 4:38 pm

Spreading Salt wrote:Abiding, you are looking for a scripture that says man has authority over woman. How about 1 Corinthians 11? This might have already been discussed so I apologize to all, but my goodness this is a long thread!


It has been touched on if I remember correctly, but there is disagreement about the meaning of the word "head." I appreciate your effort to provide some evidence for a husband's authority over his wife, but I'm asking for scripture where husbands are commanded to have/take this authority over his wife. That's the challenge because, after all, if one is to be obedient to a command, you would think there would be such a command.

I think this is the answer.


Actually much of Paul's correspondence to the Corinthians is to reply to their questions as well as the divisions, immoralities, food offered to idols, public worship, the exercise of spiritual gifts, the Lord's supper, and marriage.

1Cor. 7:1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Cor. 7:25 Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.
1Cor. 8:1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
1Cor. 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
1Cor. 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
1Cor. 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.
1Cor. 16:12 But concerning Apollos our brother....

Paul gets pretty specific about husbands and wives in Chapter 7, but Chapter ll appears to be more about public worship and some complaints about women not wearing veils. Paul concludes that their hair is their covering and that the women have their own authority over their own head and if anyone wants to be contentious about that, the churches of God have no other practice. My guess is this point of contention came primarily from the Jewish converts since women weren't even allowed to speak or participate in the synagogue and here they were praying and prophesying openly at Corinth.

At any rate, this passage is not about marriage nor is Paul establishing nor endorsing a hierarchy but is using the word head imo as source or origin because he emphasizes the interdependence (rather than authority) between them.

1Cor. 11:12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 17, 2016 5:46 pm

Exit40 wrote:Same gender marriage aside, it being a modern concept, Scripture recognizes and addresses the different genders. Evidence that by the referral to husband and wife. Is this not addressing separate genders ?


Of course Paul's recognizes and is addressing separate genders. He is not, however, mandating gender-specific treatment even though at first glance it appears to be the case. If we remove our preconceived "filter" just for a minute, we will see the two behaviors Paul is using, are included in the list of 59. Please look at the obvious....

Eph 5:21 and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.
Eph 5:22 Wives, to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives...

If you don't mind, I'd like to stop there before responding to the rest of your comments so you can see how (for me) it's so simple and uncomplicated.

Subjecting one to another is not gender specific; but rather for all believers. Husbands are not exempt.
Loving one another is not gender-specific; but rather for all believers. Wives are not exempt.

Even though Paul is addressing wives and husbands, both submission and love are present in the list of 59. They submit to one another and they love one another. The fact that Paul even mentions husbands and wives may very well (reasonable, logical speculation ahead) be because of 1) To husbands; love as a radical change from the historic ill-treatment of wives by husbands and 2) To wives; submit as a radical change from the emphasis on female, godess worship prevalent in Ephesus.

We must maintain some cultural differences in mind although I know many strongly disagree with picking and choosing based on culture alone. I agree for the most part, but one can hardly read through the Bible without learning how very different life was over the past 6-7,000 years and that must be taken into account in our contexual, grammatical, and historical interpreting. I could list the many cultural practices, but just one might be the common practice of showing hospitality and courtesy to a visitor by washing their feet. We come to a better understanding of some passages by know the reason behind it.

to be continued.... :wink:

ETA: Forgot to include this link for a little background of Ephesus. There are others, but I thought this one was pretty good and encompasses such things as brothels and temples to goddesses.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 17, 2016 8:03 pm

Exit40 wrote:This is where it gets difficult to explain, and so difficult to understand.


I think it's only difficult because we complicate it. What's so difficult about mutual submission, mutual love and (lest we forget) mutual authority in sexual intimacy?

I understand the tendency to show an imposed worldly hierarchy in the differences of husband and wife.


As do I. But if/when we recognize it as "worldly" and "fleshly" and not at all the example Jesus set for us, that's a good thing.

As a husband I understand the nature of instructions to love my wife as Christ loves the Church. This is a giving love, all the way to the point of dying for her.


It's also treating the other as you want them to treat you. It is beyond me why we narrowly define the relationship between two people in what is suppose to be a special one, to two words; head and submit.

This is not ruling over as in slave woman or concubine, whatever. A husband that has this kind of love does not go around barking out orders to his wife. He does not mistreat her nor ignore any of the 'one anothers' at all, but rather the wife is subject to the greatest of loves, just as Christ has for His Church, that kind of giving love.


If you refer to "the list," you will see that a wife will love her husband as Christ love the church as well. He gave His life for her too. We love, because He first loved us. 1Jn 4:19

It is more difficult for me to explain a wife loving a husband as she loves the Lord. She is to submit to Him, and revere and love Him, as He is the Savior of the Church.


David, do you see the submission of a wife different than the submission of a husband? Look again at Eph. 5:21-22

Eph 5:21 and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.
Eph 5:22 Wives to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

All are subject to one another as to the Lord. One person's submission is not different than another's submission. How they express that may differ due to circumstances and situations, but submission is simply deferring to one another. It's not gender specific to wives only any more than a husband's love is gender specific.

She is to love her husband in the same manner.


Yes...he loves and she loves. Not complicated unless we make it so.

No where in this do I see that she must be subject to abuse, being ordered around, or any kind of mistreatment. Surely our Lord will not do those things, so neither is a husband supposed to.


A husband has no authority to "order" anyone around let alone his wife. That goes without saying. And mistreatment is inappropriate for any believer

I think we complicate what God intended to be a beautiful, loving, "one-anothering" relationship. My apologies for the over-use of that term, but it just seems to un-complicate marriage if we view it through the 59 list rather than trying to define who does what when scripture doesn't. The word "role" isn't even scriptural I don't think, but has become so popular that we don't think twice about getting out the rule book to see who plays which role and who doesn't.

....to be continued.... :grin:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue May 17, 2016 8:03 pm

Abiding, again your view does minimize the consequences set out by God in Gen 3, and those consequences extend to all men and women. The main consequence was death, not the limited life you suggest, but death that extends to all humanity because of sin-' For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive' 1 Cor 15.

As the consequence of death was decreed by God for Adam's rebellion, this consequence also extended to all men for all time until rescinded by Christ, which He does in Rev 22. The consequences were not for Adam and Eve alone, as you suggest, they extended to all.

So when God stated to Eve, that her husband would rule over her, that consequence then extended to all wives. So if wives reject God's statement that your husband will rule over you, who is in rebellion, the husband or the wife? If the husband already understands that he is over the wife does God need to command that? Will the husband rebel if God does not directly command it?

That the husband was over the wife is indicated by statements in scripture, man was made first independently of woman, woman was made from man, woman was a part of man. Woman is called by God a helper, a helper has lesser authority. Adam stated that the woman you 'gave me' gave me the fruit, Adam saw Eve as one who was given to him, one given would be of lesser authority.

This difference in level of authority is confirmed by Paul- 'A woman should learn in quietness and full submission...for Adam was formed first, the Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.' 1 Tim 2

The passage you seek in which God gives authority to the husband over the wife is in Genesis, it is the in the creation of man followed later by woman. And that this was God's intent is confirmed by God's own statement to Eve that your husband will rule over you. And it is confirmed repeatedly in the NT by Paul and Peter, wives submit to your husbands. Why is that the statement is directed to the wife? Could it be that one party has more of a problem with the hierarchy than the other?

If God does not directly make a command to the husband to have authority over the wife, which is the position the husband is already in, but He does say to the wife that her husband will rule over her, does that nullify the man's authority? Or is it that God knows who will least likely follow the order He as set up, so He makes a statement to reinforce it?

David, after the flood stated that He would not 'again' curse the ground, He did not say that the original curse was rescinded. The original curse extends to the present, food must be worked for, weeds still grow, and Rev 22 states that there will be no more curse, indicating that the curse was still in effect until the earth was remade. There reference to not again cursing the ground after the flood appears to be that there would not be an additional curse added because of man's evil.

And where does it say in Genesis that i have to be a farmer? Is the word farmer even mentioned? If farmer is not mentioned then someone is adding something not there in Gen 3.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Tue May 17, 2016 8:48 pm

keithareilly wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife[a] is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.


Abiding wrote:
Keith, I've only found one version of the Bible (out of my 11) that interprets that verse as "wife and husband" and that is the ESV. Is that where you found that verse? Because all others read it as "the man is the head of a woman" which makes perfect sense in context as Adam (the man) was the source of Eve (the woman).

(from Keith)In these verse we see:
1) God Has Authority over Christ.
2) Christ has authority over every man.
3) A woman's husband has authority over his wife.


I disagree since there is no mention of authority unless "that word" (head) has reared it's ugly head (pun intended) again and interpreted to mean authority. Paul was surely articulate enough to say authority if he meant authority.


https://christianstudies.wordpress.com/ ... an-source/

The Claim
Egalitarians sometimes claim that the Greek word kephalē, commonly translated ‘head’, should be translated ‘source’ in New Testament passages concerning the relationship between men and women.

The Facts
Although the meaning of the word kephalē has been debated extensively among evangelical commentators for years, among professional lexicographers there is no debate. Standard professional lexicons do not include the meaning ‘source, origin’ for kephalē as understood by egalitarians, nor do recognized authoritative lexicographers debate whether the word means ‘source, origin’ or ‘chief, ruler’.

Despite years of egalitarian arguments and claims of new evidence, none of the standard lexicons has accepted the egalitarian definition of the word kephalē.[1] [2] Standard professional lexicons specifically identify kephalē as having meanings such as ‘first, superior rank, pre-eminent status, leader, master, head’ in 1 Corinthians 11:3.


Greek word for ‘origin’ can be found here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ght=origin

This was the closest ‘source’ I could find:

Greek word for ‘source’: 2 μητρὸς πηγή strictly means “source, which consists in a mother.” Having used this expression for “mother, who is the source of life,” the poet accommodates the verb to the literal sense of πηγή rather than use a verb of slaying which would have suited the personal object. .................Found here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ght=source

I would suggest that if God wanted Paul to use ‘source’ or ‘origin’ in the above verse, that’s what Paul would have used.

Abiding said:
I keep asking for evidence of a husband's authority over his wife and you (and others) keep responding with the wife's submission. I agree that the wife is to submit just as all believers are to submit to one another. Her submission cannot be different than all other submission to one-another unless you are 1) delegating an unauthorized authority to the husband, and 2) exempting the husband from the Eph. 5:21 mutual submission enjoined upon all believers.[


Dictionary.com
submit
[suh b-mit]
• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
verb (used with object), submitted, submitting.
1.
to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).
2.
to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
3.
to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others:
to submit a plan; to submit an application.
4.
to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usually followed by a clause):
I submit that full proof should be required.
verb (used without object), submitted, submitting.
5.
to yield oneself to the power or authority of another:
to submit to a conqueror.
6.
to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment:
to submit to chemotherapy.
7.
to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.:
I submit to your superior judgment.


The very act of submitting is giving up authority to someone else. So in the verses where everyone keeps bringing up the wife’s submission, God is telling her to give up her authority to her husband. Yes there is submission for all believers throughout the scriptures, as many have brought forward.

It appears that we are all set in our minds as to what we feel the verses are stating. Probably why there are so many denominations right? :a2:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 4:49 am

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, again your view does minimize the consequences set out by God in Gen 3, and those consequences extend to all men and women. The main consequence was death,


What about the other consequences? You keep mentioning death and rule while ignoring the others.

As the consequence of death was decreed by God for Adam's rebellion, this consequence also extended to all men for all time until rescinded by Christ, which He does in Rev 22. The consequences were not for Adam and Eve alone, as you suggest, they extended to all.


If death was decreed as punishment, why didn't God just kill them and start all over much like He did with the flood?

So when God stated to Eve, that her husband would rule over her, that consequence then extended to all wives. So if wives reject God's statement that your husband will rule over you, who is in rebellion, the husband or the wife? If the husband already understands that he is over the wife does God need to command that? Will the husband rebel if God does not directly command it?


Nowhere in scripture is Eve accused of rebellion; only of being deceived. Adam, on the other hand intentionally, knowingly transgressed God's command.

Job 31:33 "Have I covered my transgressions like Adam, By hiding my iniquity in my bosom....
Hos. 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners....
1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

That the husband was over the wife is indicated by statements in scripture, man was made first independently of woman, woman was made from man, woman was a part of man. Woman is called by God a helper, a helper has lesser authority. Adam stated that the woman you 'gave me' gave me the fruit, Adam saw Eve as one who was given to him, one given would be of lesser authority.


Yes, Adam blamed Eve and God for giving her to him as well. Both were created in the image of God and both were given dominion over the earth. God did not make one greater and one lesser in that creation and dominion. The word "helper" is a misnomer but "help" (H5828) and the root ezer (H5826) " to surround, that is, protect or aid" is used 81 times in the OT and of God specifically as in:

Psa 115:11 You who fear the LORD, trust in the LORD; He is their help (H5828) and their shield

This difference in level of authority is confirmed by Paul- 'A woman should learn in quietness and full submission...for Adam was formed first, the Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.' 1 Tim 2


Paul is in no way enjoining "quietness" on all woman for all time any more than he was commanding perpetual quietness on those in these verses and certainly is not gender-specific:

Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread. 2Thess. 3:12

... and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life...1Thess. 4:11

And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew dialect, they became even more quiet...Act 22:2

The passage you seek in which God gives authority to the husband over the wife is in Genesis, it is the in the creation of man followed later by woman.


If you are implying that Adam is granted authority simply by virtue of being formed first, then God overturned His own decree many times:

For example, God chose:
Isaac over Ishmael,
Jacob over Esau,
Ephraim over Manasseh,
the tribe of Judah over that of Reuben the eldest,
Joseph over all his older brothers,
and David over all his older brothers

Unless you have male authority in the pre-fall Garden, you have no reason to believe that when “Adam was formed first, then Eve,” God intended this to be understood in terms of the “first is best” principle that makes him worthy of authority.

And that this was God's intent is confirmed by God's own statement to Eve that your husband will rule over you. And it is confirmed repeatedly in the NT by Paul and Peter, wives submit to your husbands. Why is that the statement is directed to the wife? Could it be that one party has more of a problem with the hierarchy than the other?


1whowaits, I realize this thread is nearly impossible to follow due to the number of comments, but I have asked many times where God told Adam, men, or husbands they must exercise authority over their wives. I have also pointed out many times that submission is commanded to all believers in Eph. without noting an exception to anyone depending on their gender. Though some seem to disagree that the absence of such a declaration isn't really important since submission is required of wives, it's clearly an argument from silence and submission is enjoined to all believers: Eph 5:21; Heb.13:17; Jas. 4:7; 1Peter 2:13

If God does not directly make a command to the husband to have authority over the wife


Exactly. It's being read into the submission of the wife and ignoring the submission of all believers to one another without exemption.

which is the position the husband is already in, but He does say to the wife that her husband will rule over her, does that nullify the man's authority? Or is it that God knows who will least likely follow the order He as set up, so He makes a statement to reinforce it?


Both Adam and Eve were created in the exact same image of God and both were told to have dominion. Without scripture to the contrary; i.e. she is no longer the image and likeness of God and no longer has the same dominion Adam does, we are engaging in selective literalism at best, sheer speculation, and wishful thinking imo.

David, after the flood stated that He would not 'again' curse the ground, He did not say that the original curse was rescinded.


The original curse extends to the present, food must be worked for, weeds still grow


...and Rev 22 states that there will be no more curse....


The curse refers only to the ground. And yes, the ground will no longer yield thorns and thistles and there will no longer be night as God will be the eternal light. Man will no longer need to toil for his/her food will be abundant and there will be no sickness, death, marriage, no struggle to determine who is greater. In the meantime, we will still be subject to these negative, adverse conditions which can be alleviated by the advances in technology, science, medicine and hopefully an understanding of the "one-anothers" treatment of those who comprise the Body of Christ and give up the desire to rule over anyone as there is no such authority given among believers.

And where does it say in Genesis that i have to be a farmer? Is the word farmer even mentioned? If farmer is not mentioned then someone is adding something not there in Gen 3.


I'll use whatever word you choose to describe tilling the soil in toil and sweat and eating plants all the days of your life and allowing thorns and thistles to grow in the soil. Perhaps a career in agriculture is more appropriate? Either way, the command negates office work, transportation involvement, and certainly air-conditioning is a no-no. :mrgreen:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 5:03 am

Spreading Salt wrote:(from Keith)In these verse we see:
1) God Has Authority over Christ.
2) Christ has authority over every man.
3) A woman's husband has authority over his wife.


Do I understand you to believe in the eternal subordination of Jesus?

1) God has authority over Christ is refuted often in scripture.
** Jesus is God in the flesh.
** Jesus told Peter if you see Me you see the Father
** When Jesus said all authority had been given to him, it was the man/Jesus not His deity

2) Christ has authority over every man
** Christ has authority over every man and every woman
** Christ is the only mediator
** Christ is our only master, teacher, Lord

3) A woman's husband has authority over his wife
** Where is any husband told such a thing?
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Wed May 18, 2016 5:36 am

I apologize. My previous post was very choppy as I was cutting/pasting multiple comments from various pages into my post. I don't know how to get to different pages to do the quote thing. I was referencing your reply to Keith from the 1st page of this thread in early May.

To be clear, since you asked, God is Christ. Christ is God. The Holy Spirit is Christ. The Holy Spirit is God.

I went back and tried to read the logic and references in this thread and saw that indeed, many had already discussed 1 Corinthians 11. I feel it was jumped over fairly quickly though to verses around it, skirting the main idea which is Christ is THE HEAD.

Then, I found some references for folks regarding your idea of this verse really meaning 'source' or 'origin' and not a physical head on a body (even though all the verses around this verse are referring to 'heads').

Hope that clears that part up. :grin:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Wed May 18, 2016 6:22 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:It's also treating the other as you want them to treat you. It is beyond me why we narrowly define the relationship between two people in what is suppose to be a special one, to two words; head and submit.


Hi Abiding. Respectfully, we are responding to Scripture, attempting to define our relationships. I should point out too, it is not head/submit. It is head/body, extrapolated into sacrifice/submission, as it is written.

Yes...he loves and she loves. Not complicated unless we make it so.


Which we do, which is why Paul attempts to apply these gender specific words/passages for us to look at for guidance. He is saying to us how we are to be, in order to overcome our carnal nature in an intimate relationship, as husbands and wives have, and separate from other Christians who do not have intimate relations with each other.

A husband has no authority to "order" anyone around let alone his wife. That goes without saying. And mistreatment is inappropriate for any believer


Actually, he does, but not in an abusive and continuous manner. And actually so does the wife, same conditions. What I am trying to say, the only hard and fast rules are found in head/body and sacrifice/submission. These address carnality, there is an order that is followed naturally in head/body. I am sure you are aware of that, and the manner by which we overcome this carnality as husbands and wives is through sacrifice/submission. This is a special love, designated as so for each gender, in addition too the 'one anothers'. I don't mind using that term, at least until an official one is pointed out for the 59's.

I think we complicate what God intended to be a beautiful, loving, "one-anothering" relationship. My apologies for the over-use of that term, but it just seems to un-complicate marriage if we view it through the 59 list rather than trying to define who does what when scripture doesn't. The word "role" isn't even scriptural I don't think, but has become so popular that we don't think twice about getting out the rule book to see who plays which role and who doesn't.

....to be continued.... :grin:


It is our nature, carnal nature, in physical relations to do so. As you say, there is a history we have to deal with, and we have our instructions for how we are to be. As for the word 'role', it is not found in Scripture, but it is found in the title of this thread. It is just a word, we fill it up with meaning. Moving along, Paul would just as soon none get married, but where would that leave the Church ? Without kids for one. Addressing our carnal nature, he said get married rather than burn. Carnality is sanctioned in marriage, but husband/wife head/body carnality is redefined into intimacy by loving in the manner of sacrifice/submission, to put the finer point on it. Authority is granted both, for each separately and together, applicable to specific situations but bound by the 'roles' of sacrifice/submission to which we are responsible, and to each other as a result. No responsibility, no authority, no sacrifice/submission.

It shouldn't be this complicated, but here we are on page five trying to hashing out the finer points. Paul himself said in 1 Cor 7 if we get married, or apparently even discuss that relationship :oops: , we will have trouble. He also goes on to say if we use this world, ( of flesh ), we are not to abuse it, for the fashion of this world is passing away. So your reference to our historical culture, which include my reference to our gender specific carnality and behaviors, has been passing away since Paul wrote that, actually since Christ came to planet Earth. There is an order to things, one is of the world, the other is of Christ. Would it be appropriate to say there is a progression from Eden to the Eternal State ?

Interesting to me is that the Church in Ephesus in Revelations, despite it's good works, is admonished to return to it's first love. As the world wears down husbands and wives it might be a good idea to keep theirs in mind too.

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 6:24 am

Spreading Salt wrote:I
I went back and tried to read the logic and references in this thread and saw that indeed, many had already discussed 1 Corinthians 11. I feel it was jumped over fairly quickly though to verses around it, skirting the main idea which is Christ is THE HEAD.


Hi Spreading Salt,

No problem, but I still think we arrive at erroneous meaning when we arbitrarily lift a word or phrase or even a verse from it's context. The insertion of words in parentheses, verse numbers and chapter breaks all contribute to avoiding or neglecting to take the part as an integrate part of the whole to arrive at the author's intent as well as how the hearer's would understand his words. This is sometimes very difficult due to cultural changes, language and dialects, the time-frame in consideration and the circumstances that influenced the purpose of the individual letters.

I've already pointed out the many reasons for Paul's letters that indicate he was correcting the chaos and dissension occurring in the Corinthian church. This passage in chapter :wink: 11 seems to be about complaints about veils as an apparent symbol of submission on the part of wives to their husbands. If there was ever a time for Paul to reinforce the submission/authority rule, it would be here but he says nothing of the sort. Instead, he maintains a woman's hair suffices if they insist on a visual symbol and corrects the mindset that one is more important than the other by showing their interdependence on one another.

He shows this by refuting the "first" is more important because although the "source" of the man is Christ (let us make man), the "source" of the man is woman. The "source" of Jesus is God when He left Him to come to earth in bodily form and for a time became a little lower than the angels. He was both God and man. Christ is the "source" of the church when the Holy Spirit was sent and Pentecost was the beginning of Christ-followers.

As a Pharisee, Paul was keenly aware of the OT and all it's rules and regulations and in no way intended to make the gospel a book of rules and regulations. He knew Jesus came to give life, liberty and set the oppressed and captives free. He knew the history of slavery and mistreatment of wives as well as Moses' concession to divorce because of it.

The harmony of scripture is very important but will not be harmonious if words and verses are yanked out of the context of the whole. It's the way many if not most cults are formed....by emphasizing words while ignoring the contradictory passages.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 6:56 am

It shouldn't be this complicated, but here we are on page five trying to hashing out the finer points.


It should be obvious that the carnal desire for authority, rule, and the madness of "headship" is deeply ingrained in the flesh and the effort to defend it despite the contrasting scriptures is amazing to me.

That's because there's a teaching Paul himself said in 1 Cor 7 if we get married, or apparently even discuss that relationship :oops: , we will have trouble. He also goes on to say if we use this world, ( of flesh ), we are not to abuse it, for the fashion of this world is passing away.


And yet Paul, himself, discussed the mutuality of the relationship in 1 Cor. 7 at length showing the similarities between the husband and wife and apparently didn't think he was contradicting Eph. 5 at all. That's because he knew those to whom he was writing would understand the context. I don't think he ever dreamed his "head=authority" metaphor would be debated for eons.

So your reference to our historical culture, which include my reference to our gender specific carnality and behaviors, has been passing away since Paul wrote that, actually since Christ came to planet Earth.


It should have been passing away since Genesis, but all through the OT we see the desire for power and authority and abuse of others.

There is an order to things, one is of the world, the other is of Christ.


But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. Gal 5:16-17

Would it be appropriate to say there is a progression from Eden to the Eternal State ?


Jesus came to set an example for us in this life. The Holy Spirit came in fulfillment of Joel 2 to enable both men and women to live in the spirit...and overcome the flesh in this life.

You'll notice there are few (if any) discussions about life in heaven on the board in the last 10 years.... :lol:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 7:08 am

Exit40 wrote:Hi Abiding. Respectfully, we are responding to Scripture, attempting to define our relationships. I should point out too, it is not head/submit. It is head/body, extrapolated into sacrifice/submission, as it is written.


Just a little clarification about the head/body extrapolation into sacrifice/submission example. I don't believe the head represents a husbands authority and the body represents the wife in marriage. The metaphor reflects Christ as the head and the church as the body. That's very different. Both husband and wife are part of the body as are all believers.

Paul's use of the body as both a metaphor and a literal head and body metaphor and literal body makes clarity difficult.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 7:45 am

I realize some may be tired of reading opposing views, but I offer various blog articles that may shed a little light on the topic.

Trifling with Subtleties while Ignoring Certainties: Turning the Gospel into a Gender Gospel
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Wed May 18, 2016 8:15 am

Hi Abiding,

You skipped the majority of my post. Please respond to the following:

Spreading Salt wrote:keithareilly wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife[a] is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.


...........................................

Abiding said:
I keep asking for evidence of a husband's authority over his wife and you (and others) keep responding with the wife's submission. I agree that the wife is to submit just as all believers are to submit to one another. Her submission cannot be different than all other submission to one-another unless you are 1) delegating an unauthorized authority to the husband, and 2) exempting the husband from the Eph. 5:21 mutual submission enjoined upon all believers.[


Dictionary.com
submit
[suh b-mit]
• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
verb (used with object), submitted, submitting.
1.
to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).
2.
to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
3.
to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others:
to submit a plan; to submit an application.
4.
to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usually followed by a clause):
I submit that full proof should be required.
verb (used without object), submitted, submitting.
5.
to yield oneself to the power or authority of another:
to submit to a conqueror.
6.
to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment:
to submit to chemotherapy.
7.
to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.:
I submit to your superior judgment.


The very act of submitting is giving up authority to someone else. So in the verses where everyone keeps bringing up the wife’s submission, God is telling her to give up her authority to her husband. Yes there is submission for all believers throughout the scriptures, as many have brought forward.

It appears that we are all set in our minds as to what we feel the verses are stating. Probably why there are so many denominations right? :a2:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 8:53 am

The very act of submitting is giving up authority to someone else.


Yes, as in Eph. 5:21

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Rom 13:1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God

Note: If Romans 13:1 is true that there is no authority except from God....then we should find evidence of God giving authority to husbands, shouldn't we?

So in the verses where everyone keeps bringing up the wife’s submission, God is telling her to give up her authority to her husband.


Just as the husband gives up his authority to his wife. See 1 Cor. 7 where the authority is mutual.

Yes there is submission for all believers throughout the scriptures, as many have brought forward.


BUT?? Doesn't all believers mean all believers? Or is there an exemption for the husband somewhere? (maybe in the same place where the scripture gives him authority....) :wink:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 10:12 am

Just an additional thought about "assigning" specific behaviors to one gender or the other. Most verses where we might be tempted to see them as specific to a male or female are not exclusive to the other. Off the top of my head are a few examples.

** Just because women are told to dress modestly, doesn't mean men are free to dress any way they choose. Modesty is incumbent on all believers.

** Older women are told to teach the younger women to love their husbands. While there is no parallel for husbands to teach their sons to love their wives, and should they ignore such a teaching to their young daughters? Of course not!

** Titus 2 tells young men to be sensible, but are young women excluded from this behavior? I don't think so.

** Father are told not to provoke their children. Does that mean it's ok for mothers since they aren't mentioned? No.

So to see submission as a distinctly female command or authority as a distinctly male is contradictory to the overall harmony of scripture.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Wed May 18, 2016 1:13 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:.................................

So to see submission as a distinctly female command or authority as a distinctly male is contradictory to the overall harmony of scripture.


Genesis 3:16Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pain in childbirth. You will bring forth children in pain. Your desire will be toward your husband, but he will rule over you.”

Ephesians 5:22-24Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
22 Wives should submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord; 23 because the husband is head of the wife, just as the Messiah, as head of the Messianic Community, is himself the one who keeps the body safe. 24 Just as the Messianic Community submits to the Messiah, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Colossians 3:17-21
That is, everything you do or say, do in the name of the Lord Yeshua, giving thanks through him to God the Father.
18 Wives, subject yourselves to your husbands, as is appropriate in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and don’t treat them harshly.
20 Children, obey your parents in everything; for this pleases the Lord.
21 Fathers, don’t irritate your children and make them resentful, or they will become discouraged.

1 Peter 3:1-6Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
3 In the same way, wives, submit to your husbands; so that even if some of them do not believe the Word, they will be won over by your conduct, without your saying anything, 2 as they see your respectful and pure behavior. 3 Your beauty should not consist in externals such as fancy hairstyles, gold jewelry or what you wear; 4 rather, let it be the inner character of your heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit. In God’s sight this is of great value. 5 This is how the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves and submit to their husbands, 6 the way Sarah obeyed Avraham, honoring him as her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not succumb to fear.

1 Corinthians 11Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
11 try to imitate me, even as I myself try to imitate the Messiah.

2 Now I praise you because you have remembered everything I told you and observe the traditions just the way I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is the Messiah, and the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of the Messiah is God.


At this point in the discussion, I would suggest you do what you feel brings glory to God. Some people eat meat, some don’t. Do it all to His Glory because your interpretation of His Word is definitely not jiving with my idea about what it means. As for me, I will serve the Lord by continuing to submit to my “head hubby” as the scriptures suggest. I understand your point in that all people at some point and time are required to 'submit'. There are enough scriptures (like the ones above) directly speaking and encouraging wives to allow the husband to have authority in their marriage to justify that submission in my life. For me, that brings God Glory.

Blessings, SS
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 18, 2016 3:48 pm

Spreading Salt wrote: Do it all to His Glory because your interpretation of His Word is definitely not jiving with my idea about what it means.


Spreading Salt, I do understand the emphasis on the authority/submission today, but I personally think it's completely contrary to the gospel and arrived at by lifting verses and words from their context.

I hope the scriptures I contributed to this thread have at least shown how focusing on two words to define marriage is not the spirit or the primary focus reflected in at least 59 verses that encourage mutual behaviors of both the husband and the wife.

As for me, I will serve the Lord by continuing to submit to my “head hubby” as the scriptures suggest. I understand your point in that all people at some point and time are required to 'submit'. There are enough scriptures (like the ones above) directly speaking and encouraging wives to allow the husband to have authority in their marriage to justify that submission in my life. For me, that brings God Glory.


Scripture says a wife who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away and vice versa. If there is agreement between you and your husband about your preferred arrangement, then there is peace and harmony and that can't be a bad thing although I think we should be cautious about holding that arrangement up as a biblical model for marriage. It's our love for one another that shows the unsaved world that we are disciples of Jesus. (John 13:35)

I hear your conviction in the manner you are interpreting certain passages that appear to be specific to wives and I am equally confident that my studies, interpretations of the texts, and applications are consistent with the whole counsel of God.

Blessings to you and your family....
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Wed May 18, 2016 8:05 pm

Abiding, in response to one of your previous questions, i do believe scripture indicates that Christ chooses to put Himself under the authority of God the Father - 'Then the end will come. when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority and power...when He has done this, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under Him, so that God may be all in all'. 1 Cor 15.

God the Father and God the Son are both God, and yet one personality of the God Head chooses to submit Himself to the other so that God may be all in all, God is over all. How this is done is not completely clear but i believe it is done as an example, that only God can rule, only God can be God.

One of the main issues God is dealing with in this creation is the rebellion of created beings against His authority, exemplified in the fall of Satan and the fall of man. Satan wants to rule from God's position, and man and woman fell with Satan's statement 'you will be like God..'. It appears that created beings do not want to be ruled over, they want to rule, they want to be like God, and in the end, they want to be God.

This creation and the past 6,000 years demonstrate how God is dealing with rebellion, how He turns rebellious men and women into sons and daughters who willingly accept His authority, and who will then live with Him for eternity.

One way He deals with the rebellious nature of man is to create conditions in which man understands the nature of His rebellion, admitting his sin, and then accepting God's gift of love and submitting to the Lordship of Christ. God also deals with mans' rebellion by setting up conditions that provide opportunity to submit to authority of God, in the form of lesser authorities, that act as a training ground for learning the submission of the will.

So God sets up increasing level of authority, as noted in 1 Cor 11- 'I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God'. Also included in the levels of authority requiring some degree of submission is children to parents (children obey your parents), and governmental authorities.

God sets up these levels of authority to bring order to human existence who's natural state is rebellion. The hierarchy helps bring order to men, and also helps the training in submission of the will. Hierarchy is seen throughout the creation, in the animal kingdom (alpha males), in the angelic beings (arch angels, princes), and even in the fallen angels (principalities, powers, dark forces).

So if there is an order, a hierarchy in the rest of creation, why would there not be such a hierarchy in the human condition? And scripture does describe this, child under the parents, the wife under the husband, the husband and wife under Christ, and all under God the Father. This hierarchy is not madness, it is for our good, and it has been set up by God Himself.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 19, 2016 4:03 am

1whowaits, the subject of the ESS (Eternal Subordination of the Son) has been resurrected in recent years as what can be called "semi-Arianism" has returned, not as a "God over Jesus" debate at all, but rather as an effort to bolster the belief that the husband's has authority over the wife. When I hear the words "functional" and "ontological" used as marital descriptors, I know where they came from as well as why they are emphasized.

That topic is beyond the scope of this thread primarily because any effort to compare the Father's authority to that of a husband's and Jesus' (temporary) submission to the Father to that of a wife's submission to her husband is heretical at best and absurd as well.

So....back to the husband/wife topic.

Still lacking is any scriptural support for a husband's authority over his wife except in 1 Cor. 7 where both the husband and wife share mutual authority over one another.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 19, 2016 5:05 am

1whowaits wrote:So if there is an order, a hierarchy in the rest of creation, why would there not be such a hierarchy in the human condition? And scripture does describe this, child under the parents, the wife under the husband, the husband and wife under Christ, and all under God the Father. This hierarchy is not madness, it is for our good, and it has been set up by God Himself.


Why did you leave out the slave under the slave owner?

"child under the parents"
This is a temporary position. When a child becomes an adult, they no longer need the guidance and instruction of their parents. Paul uses the child/adult analogy to say " When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things." 1Cor. 13:11

"the wife under the husband"
The use of the word "under" implies some submission to authority. Contrary to a one-way submission, both are to submit to one another and both have the same authority per 1 Cor. 7 which is the only place authority is mentioned in the marital union.

"husband and wife under Christ"
Jesus does not refer to Himself in terms of authority over believers. He refers to Himself as a Shepherd; Bread of Life; Peace; giver of abundant life; our Rest; the refuge for the weary; servant; Lamb of God; True Light; the Way, Truth; and Life; Mediator, etc.

"slave under master"
Both Jesus and Paul refuted the system of slavery. Jesus, while He refers to slavery several times, does not speak of them in positive light. And says He no longer refers to his disciples as slaves, but radically changes the relationship to one of friendship. Paul returns Philemon's slave, Onesimus, but entreats him to radically change their relationship as brothers.

Jesus clearly opposes a system where some rule over or exercise authority over others and tells us it should not be that way with us. He exemplifies serving one another, loving one another and washing one another's feet and refuses to engage the "who is greater?" question.

Paul and Jesus did recognize governing authorities which exist for the protection of citizens and the punishment of evil. Today, those would include the federal government, state, and civil entities.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Thu May 19, 2016 2:03 pm

Abiding,

I have noticed for some time you do not accept many authorities.

I submit to you that you are not able to accept some verses in scripture that grant authority even when that authority is spelled out. Here is part of your response to a post I made earlier.

Abiding Wrote:
keithareilly wrote:
John 20:20
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Here is an example of Christ delegating authority to his disciples.
Should the disciples have exercised this authority over others or not?
Did they have authority that other disciples did not have or do we all have this same authority?
If we have this authority, should we exercise it over others?



Only God forgives sins. When the Holy Spirit comes, Jesus said, He would convict of sin. Jesus was conveying the principle of forgiveness as they are sent out to the world to make disciples by preaching the good news. We all have the Holy Spirit but only Roman Catholics believe the priest has the authority and/or power to forgive sins.


Notice that even though I quoted a scripture that directly grants the authority to forgive sins or not to forgive sins to the disciples, you cannot accept what this verse says. To you, it must mean something other than what it says. Because you are not able to accept what the scriptures say, you search for another meaning, one that you can accept.

This is not submission to the Word, to Christ. Instead, this is what Satan did to Eve in the Garden. God said you would die, Satan said you would not die. Your argument is the same argument Satan used: The Word does not mean what is says.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 19, 2016 3:35 pm

keithareilly wrote:Notice that even though I quoted a scripture that directly grants the authority to forgive sins or not to forgive sins to the disciples, you cannot accept what this verse says. To you, it must mean something other than what it says. Because you are not able to accept what the scriptures say, you search for another meaning, one that you can accept.


Adam Clarke's Commentary
It is certain God alone can forgive sins; and it would not only be blasphemous, but grossly absurd, to say that any creature could remit the guilt of a transgression which had been committed against the Creator. The apostles received from the Lord the doctrine of reconciliation, and the doctrine of condemnation....


Albert Barnes' Commentary
The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God Isa_43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned....


John Gill's Commentary
God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind....


Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary
In any literal and authoritative sense this power was never exercised by one of the apostles, and plainly was never understood by themselves as possessed by them or conveyed to them.


Robertson's Commentary
The power to forgive sin belongs only to God, but Jesus claimed to have this power and right (Mar_2:5-7). What he commits to the disciples and to us is the power and privilege of giving assurance of the forgiveness of sins by God by correctly announcing the terms of forgiveness.


That verse is imo awkward in that it does appear the apostles had the power to forgive sins, and we know that's how Roman Catholics understand it and the reason for the priest hearing sins in the confessional. But we know only God forgives sins and I'm in agreement with these commentaries that the apostles were to proclaim God's forgiveness of their sins. Paul preaches just such a message here:

Act 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you....

Now scripture does speak of us forgiving a personal offense committed against us when we are confronted by someone. We are to forgive the person in that case, not their sin. There is a difference. I don't normally use the ESV version of the Bible, but in this case Matt. 18:15 is correct in that version whereas the NASB leaves out "against you."

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

The forgiveness is extended to the person for a personal act committed against another and results in reconciliation between the two.

Earlier Jesus had told the apostles that He would send the Holy Spirit when He left and the Holy Spirit would convict of sin, righteousness, and judgment. John 16:7-11. So in John 20 following His resurrection, He breathes on them and they receive the Holy Spirit which empowers them to preach the forgiveness of sins.

I only posted 4-5 commentaries, but if you research more, I think you will find agreement that only God forgives sin. It's context that gives the intended meaning rather than isolating a word or verse which can lead to a misunderstanding.

Hope that eases your perception that I am listening to the deceiver.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Thu May 19, 2016 6:01 pm

Abiding,

You are convinced God means something other than what He said.
As you have shown, You are not alone in believing that.
But remember, Eve also was deceived into believing God did not mean what He said.
Thus Satan removed the obstacle, obedience, submission to God and His authority.


I suspect you have problems with authority in the following areas,
1) Husband and Wife
2) Elder and Congregation,
3) Ability to forgive sins

What I see is a war strategy to remove the authority that keeps order and unity in the Kingdom.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 19, 2016 8:06 pm

keithareilly wrote:I suspect much of the difficulties come from reading the scripture with an "or" instead of "and" mindset.


Keith, it's true that there are sometimes difficulties in determining the precise meaning in scripture. That's largely due to the use of metaphors, hyperbole, cultural idioms, etc. So we have to try to arrive at the "best" meaning by using all the resources available to us while not blindly accepting the conclusions of others, but when after doing our own studies, we find they are in agreement with those commentaries/resources, then we can be relatively confident we are not out in left field, so to speak. But the rules of hermeneutics I have studied, state that rarely (if ever) can we arrive at a correct understanding based on a single word or verse.

Misunderstandings and disagreements are not necessarily bad as they encourage us to dig deeper and/or ask for clarification to better understand a particular interpretation of certain passages.

Here's an example of how the same word can have very different meanings and need clarification for correct understanding of what was intended.

John 11:11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
John 11:12 The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."
John 11:13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
John 11:14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead....


The same word is used as literal sleep and death and the disciples thought Lazarus was asleep as they understood the word. Jesus had to come right out and clarify His use of the word asleep by saying, "Lazarus is dead."

Sometimes sleep means sleep and sometimes sleep means death and we have to arrive at the meaning by comparing it with other such verses, or looking at the context by examining the surrounding verses or even chapters. For example, in Luke 8:22-23, we find Jesus in a boat and He has fallen asleep. Just by the context and our knowledge of His life and death, we can arrive at the meaning of literal sleep with certainty. But that is not always the case as evidenced by the passage in John 11.

So....we are free to debate a variety of topics, but there are some which are pretty much non-negotiable which are considered the foundations of our faith. Those are the essentials of our faith.

“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Thu May 19, 2016 8:26 pm

Abiding, i did not compare God the Father to the husband, rather that Jesus, who is fully God, chooses to submit Himself to the authority of the Father at the end of the millenium, likely as an example and a confirmation that all will submit to the will of the Father, only God can rule for all eternity, only God can be God.

You appear to have a limited view of who Jesus really is, He is fully God and we are not, we are not equal to Him nor should we consider ourselves on His level. And while He loves His church, He also disciplines- 'Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline' Rev 3, 'I am the Alpha and Omega...the Almighty...I am the first and the last..and I hold the keys to death and Hades' Rev 3. Jesus will meet out discipline when necessary and when rebellion exists, If He disciplines then He is over us, we are under His authority and He will exert His authority when necessary- 'I hold this against you, you have forsaken your first love..if you do not repent I will come and remove your lamp stand from it place' lamp stands representing the church, indicating church discipline

'you have those who those who hold to the teachings of the Nicolations. Repent..otherwise I will come and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.' When Jesus uses the sword of His mouth later in Rev, many are destroyed. 'I have this against you..you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess....I will cast her on a bed of suffering..I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches the hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds'.

Jesus believes in church discipline and He will use severe discipline, even death, to deal with rebellion 'for this reason many of you are weak and sickly, and many sleep.' (dead) 'When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world' 1 Cor 11

Christ is the head of the church, He has full authority over the church, He loves the church but those He loves He will discipline when necessary. 'And God placed all things under His feet and appointed Him head over everything for the church...' Eph 1 Christ being the head implies full authority over the church, 'all things under His feet' means all things, including the church, under His authority.

So when Paul states 'Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church' (Eph 5), he is speaking about authority.

And the order of authority is again confirmed.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 20, 2016 6:04 am

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, i did not compare God the Father to the husband, rather that Jesus, who is fully God, chooses to submit Himself to the authority of the Father at the end of the millenium, likely as an example and a confirmation that all will submit to the will of the Father, only God can rule for all eternity, only God can be God.


1whowaits, if you think for one minute I don't recognize that Jesus' made Himself for a time and purpose a little lower than the angels, you don't know me very well.

You appear to have a limited view of who Jesus really is, He is fully God and we are not, we are not equal to Him nor should we consider ourselves on His level. And while He loves His church, He also disciplines-


And the order of authority is again confirmed.


For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority...Col 2:9

There is no question that Jesus is the source (head) of all rule and authority. But magnifying His authority is not how He established relationships with his disciples nor is it how He speaks of His purpose in coming to earth as the Savior.

He came that we might have abundant life; He is our sustenance (Bread of Life); He is our Living Water; He is our Deliverer; He is our Shepherd, our Master, our Teacher. He humbled Himself on our behalf. He emptied Himself for our salvation. He laid down His life for us.

By His own words, this is the example of how we are to relate to one another:

"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. "If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. John 13:13-15

No mention of exercising or implementing a system of authority over others. None. That is not how He relates to us and not how we are to relate to others.

I trust we are clear about who Jesus is, it's who we are that seems to be the problem in this discussion..... We are not to define ourselves in terms of male/female, Greek/Jew, master/slave, or by our performance, status, or perceived authority over others.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 20, 2016 7:36 am

1whowaits wrote:So when Paul states 'Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church' (Eph 5), he is speaking about authority.

And the order of authority is again confirmed.


I've yet to see a command or even a suggestion given to husbands that they should be an authority to/over their wives.

No matter how many times you quote this verse, you cannot find the word authority in it, nor can you find a single place in scripture that husbands should have authority over their wives. Whether or not it conforms to the belief of many believers, both husband and wife are said to have equal authority in 1 Cor. 7 but even in that chapter, there is no command. Paul simply expresses and reinforces the principle of mutuality as does the list of 59 one-anothers posted previously.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby mark s on Fri May 20, 2016 7:49 am

It's a de facto argument.

In telling wives to submit to their husbands, there does not need to be a statement giving husbands authority over their wives. In fact, as a husband, I do not enforce an authority over my wife. Her submission to me me is not my business. I'm not told to have authority over her. It's she who is told to submit to me. Whether she does or not is up to her.

But the argument is the same regardless.

It's the same as if I tell a new employee, "You follow Jose's instructions." I present the new worker to Jose, and tell Jose, I've told him to follow your instructions.

I've not "given authority" to Jose in an overt manner. But it's a de facto state of affairs.

So the response is, all believers are to submit to one another. Yes, that is true. Nonetheless, wives are told in a separate statement, submit to your husbands. Why is that? Husbands are told to love their wives. Do not wives love their husbands? Do not all submit to one another? Yet these are separate, additional statements. I suppose they are there for a a reason.

I'm not planning on joining the debate. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in . . .

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 20, 2016 8:14 am

mark s wrote:So the response is, all believers are to submit to one another. Yes, that is true.


Agreed.

Nonetheless, wives are told in a separate statement, submit to your husbands. Why is that? Husbands are told to love their wives. Do not wives love their husbands? Do not all submit to one another? Yet these are separate, additional statements. I suppose they are there for a a reason.


If all submit to one another, are we trying to make the wife's submission different than that of the submission of all other believer's submission? Of course not.

If all are to love one another, are we trying to make the husband's agape love different than that of the agape love of all other believers? Of course not.

The difference is the manner in which these virtues may be expressed due to the intimate nature of the relationship of husbands and wives. They will express these virtues mutually to one another much more often than those we may fellowship with once or twice a week. But there is absolutely no indication of different levels of submission, levels of love, or humility, service, deference, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, etc. between husbands and wives. Nor are any believers exempt from them or told they have more of one virtue than the others have. There are no male or female virtues or gifts or special gifts or virtues for those who marry that are denied those who are single, young/old, or widowed. Not only are they not specific to gender, ethnicity, age, etc., but they are to be extended to the unsaved world and even to our enemies!

I'm not planning on joining the debate. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in . . .


Thanks, for your comment, Mark!
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Fri May 20, 2016 4:08 pm

Abiding wrote.
If all submit to one another, are we trying to make the wife's submission different than that of the submission of all other believer's submission? Of course not.

If all are to love one another, are we trying to make the husband's agape love different than that of the agape love of all other believers? Of course not.

The difference is the manner in which these virtues may be expressed due to the intimate nature of the relationship of husbands and wives. They will express these virtues mutually to one another much more often than those we may fellowship with once or twice a week. But there is absolutely no indication of different levels of submission, levels of love, or humility, service, deference, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, etc. between husbands and wives. ...


The context of these verses is brethren in Christ; various individual members of body of Christ. Marriage is not the same context. Marriage is a group of members uniting. Like a bunch of cells getting together to form an organ. All the organ cells work together as a unit. These organ cells are still part of the body and submit to the whole body; but as an organ, not as individual free radical cells.

The context of the verses you quoted applies to all cells submitting to form the body.
The context of submitting to your husband is the context of submitting to form an organ of the body.



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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri May 20, 2016 7:00 pm

keithareilly wrote:The context of these verses is brethren in Christ; various individual members of body of Christ.


Which verses are you referring to, Keith? We're all individual members of the Body of Christ, aren't we?

Marriage is not the same context. Marriage is a group of members uniting.


.... because we are members of His body. Eph 5:30 Married persons are members of His body according to Eph. 5:30 and that's in the context of marriage. It's a metaphor that reflects the unity and diversity of the individual members.

Like a bunch of cells getting together to form an organ. All the organ cells work together as a unit. These organ cells are still part of the body and submit to the whole body; but as an organ, not as individual free radical cells.

The context of the verses you quoted applies to all cells submitting to form the body.
The context of submitting to your husband is the context of submitting to form an organ of the body.


:humm:

I think you're complicating the meaning of the metaphor. The Eph. passage doesn't refer to cells and organs but some versions translate Eph 5:30 as this: Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

This seems to be a reference to Gen. 2:23 when Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of (source) Man." The meaning is they are united as in a family unit. The same idiom is used several times with the meaning of family, related as from a common source. Here's a few examples of expressions of familial ancestry:

And Laban said to him, Surely thou art my bone and my flesh. Gen 29:14

"....remember also that I am your bone and your flesh. Judges 9:2

..all the tribes of Israel came to David, to Hebron, and spoke, saying, Behold, we are your bone and your flesh 2Sam 5:1


Others are 2 Sam. 19:12 AND 1 Chron. 11:1

So we see two people Adam and Eve becoming a family unit in Gen. 2:24 with Adam being the source of Eve and Eve is bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. (Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.)

Then the man leaves his father and mother to be joined to his wife as stated 4 times in scripture referenced in Gen. 2:24 and reiterated in (Eph. 5:31 ... "For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh.")

Jesus Himself followed the first marriage instruction when He left His heavenly Father to be joined to the church.
(Eph 5:32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.)

The man[/i is to leave his father and mother and sacrifice himself as [i]Christ did out of His love when gave up His life for His church.

Interesting that we read Gen. 2:24 that's reiterated 4 different time as "both shall leave their parents and be joined to one another." But Jesus quoted Gen. 2:24 correctly in both Matt. 19:4-5 and Mark 10:6-8.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Fri May 20, 2016 9:11 pm

Abiding, you appear to base your argument on not finding a direct command to man regarding authority of the husband over the wife, thinking that the lack of such statements gets the wife 'off the hook' as it were. But what is God's statement to wives, what is His intent? When God states that the husband will rule over the wife and wives submit to your husbands and He then lays out a hierarchy, is His intent not clearly stated to the wife? If the wife receives an instruction from God on what she is to do, does it matter what God says to the husband, does that lessen her responsibility to the Lord's instruction?

If the Lord does not give a direct command to the husband regarding authority over the wife but does give a direct instruction to the wife that the husband will rule and the wife should submit, does that negate the wife's responsibility? To the contrary, it would be the husband that could be 'off the hook' if a direct command was not made to him regarding authority, not the wife to whom the directive was clearly made.

If i have 2 children, one older and 1 younger, and i tell the younger that the older is in charge while i am gone and say nothing to the older child, can the younger say that the older has no authority over him because i did not directly indicate this to the older child? i am just restating Mark's defacto argument above, the answer is obvious.

The problem as i see it is not so much how authority is exercised and to what extent, but whether one accepts that there is any authority at all. Hearts have become so hardened, even in the church, that the authority of Christ is downplayed, the authority of the husband is denied, the authority of leaders, 'overseers', in the church is ignored. But the authority of Christ still stands, it will not be diminished, the hierarchy in the church and the family that He has laid out in scripture still remains, whether it is aknowledged or not.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Sat May 21, 2016 5:00 am

Mathew 8:5-13
5When he had entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6“Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant,c ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israeld have I found such faith. 11I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.

I want to point out something about authority.
Those, like the centurion, who accept authority, understand it, They are are able to have greater faith. Those who reject authority, reject the power that comes with it through the ranks. We are God's children. We have certain authority as his children, like when Jesus told the disciples if they forgive someone's sin it is forgiven. Many will say, we don't have the authority to forgive sins. Consequently, they don't forgive sins. Why, because they don't believe, they don't have faith. When a person rejects authority, they are rejecting the faith and power authority grants them. Rejecting authority, limits a person. Consider Sarah; she had servants, she was the head over which she had authority, she understood authority like the centurion and used it to her advantage.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat May 21, 2016 5:55 am

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, you appear to base your argument on not finding a direct command to man regarding authority of the husband over the wife, thinking that the lack of such statements gets the wife 'off the hook' as it were. But what is God's statement to wives, what is His intent?


1whowaits, this seems to me to be a diversion or deflection tactic. What I'm asking is not what scripture says to wives, but what it says to husbands.

When God states that the husband will rule over the wife and wives submit to your husbands and He then lays out a hierarchy, is His intent not clearly stated to the wife?


I've already addressed this argument numerous times. Using the Gen. 3 passage to justify a husband ruling over a wife must also be used to justify the husbands career in agriculture, etc. If a husband's rule over his wife in Gen. 3 is seen as a good thing, then so is allowing thorns and thistles to overtake the earth. It is my hope that we see the folly in such logic and there will be no reason to try to change the negative, adverse conditions to good, positive circumstances. But I know there are no guarantees and this verse has continually been yanked out of its context for years as the erroneous foundation for marriage while conveniently ignoring the surrounding verses including verse 23: "Therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken"

If the wife receives an instruction from God on what she is to do, does it matter what God says to the husband, does that lessen her responsibility to the Lord's instruction?


Does it matter what God says to the husband?? How in the world can we ascertain the truth, if we can't recognize the false? How can we "search the scripture to see if this is so" if it doesn't matter what God does or doesn't say?

If the Lord does not give a direct command to the husband regarding authority over the wife but does give a direct instruction to the wife that the husband will rule and the wife should submit, does that negate the wife's responsibility? To the contrary, it would be the husband that could be 'off the hook' if a direct command was not made to him regarding authority, not the wife to whom the directive was clearly made.


Eph 5:21 and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.

1Cor. 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

Luk 22:25 And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors.'
Luk 22:26 "But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The problem as i see it is not so much how authority is exercised and to what extent, but whether one accepts that there is any authority at all.


There is authority where scripture says there is authority.

Hearts have become so hardened, even in the church, that the authority of Christ is downplayed, the authority of the husband is denied, the authority of leaders, 'overseers', in the church is ignored. But the authority of Christ still stands, it will not be diminished, the hierarchy in the church and the family that He has laid out in scripture still remains, whether it is aknowledged or not.


History confirms that many cults and groups emerge in an effort to design doctrine that needs to be corrected. The Protestant Reformation is the most obvious effort at correction the errors of it's day and recently, Holly's efforts at correcting the errors of the NAR both on her Spirit of Error website as well as two extremely well-written books that refute current teachings of this group that eagerly supports unscriptural authority.

It's not imo as you say the result of hardened hearts, but evidence that Christians are no longer willing to assume something is true just because a celebrity preacher says it is, but searches the scripture to see if it is so for themselves. It is, after all, the truth that sets us free.

P.S. You didn't address my question to you about why you left out the verse about slaves in a number of passages.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Sat May 21, 2016 7:34 am

mark s wrote:It's a de facto argument.

In telling wives to submit to their husbands, there does not need to be a statement giving husbands authority over their wives. In fact, as a husband, I do not enforce an authority over my wife. Her submission to me me is not my business. I'm not told to have authority over her. It's she who is told to submit to me. Whether she does or not is up to her.

But the argument is the same regardless.

It's the same as if I tell a new employee, "You follow Jose's instructions." I present the new worker to Jose, and tell Jose, I've told him to follow your instructions.

I've not "given authority" to Jose in an overt manner. But it's a de facto state of affairs.

So the response is, all believers are to submit to one another. Yes, that is true. Nonetheless, wives are told in a separate statement, submit to your husbands. Why is that? Husbands are told to love their wives. Do not wives love their husbands? Do not all submit to one another? Yet these are separate, additional statements. I suppose they are there for a a reason.

I'm not planning on joining the debate. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark


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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat May 21, 2016 7:57 am

keithareilly wrote:Mathew 8:5-13


Keith, the Centurion was as you know a military officer who had authority/rank over some 100...apparently a title from the word century. The position is comparable to that of our own military and others like our federal government, state governments, and civil laws. We are to obey these laws as they are for the protection of citizens.

While the Centurion was speaking about the authority granted him in the worldly kingdom or Rome, what he was asking Jesus for was His "dunamis" power...."just say the word and he will be healed." Dunamis power is supernatural, spiritual, miraculous power in the Kingdom of God absent in the kingdom of the world.

I believe Cornelius was a Roman soldier and the crucifixion of Jesus was witnessed by Roman soldiers one of which recognized that He was the son of God.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.


Again, that power is dunamis power. Jesus performed many miracles and did the apostles and some of which are gifts of the Holy Spirit that Peter recognized as the fulfillment of Joel 2.

Proof of Dunamis power:

Luke 7:21 And in the same hour He cured many of infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits. And He gave sight to many who were blind.
Luke 7:22 And answering, Jesus said to them, Go and tell John what you have seen and heard; that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the gospel is proclaimed to the poor.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Sat May 21, 2016 9:02 pm

Abiding, i realize you don't want to look at what God says to the wife because what He says is clear and definitive. God's intention for the husband is clear by what He says and also by what He does not say.

God's statement to Eve that the husband would rule over her is not the only statement God makes, He repeatedly instructs the wife to submit to the husband in the NT...'Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church..... Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.' Eph 5.

Jesus as the head of the church is not at the same level in authority as the church, He is clearly higher in authority. The relationship between husband and wife reflects to a lesser degree how Christ views His relationship with the church.

Christ has authority over the church and to a lesser degree man has authority over the wife, but man only has the authority that God allows, and that authority parallels how Christ deals with the church- 'Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy...in the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies..no one ever hated his own body, but feeds it and cares for it.'.

So man has the authority to love his wife, sacrifice himself for his wife, feed and care for his wife, and basically serve his wife. Man is not given any authority to enforce submission, command obedience or even speak harshly, he has the authority of service only. The submission to the authority of the husband is strictly voluntary, if the wife refuses the authority of the husband, the husband has no recourse other than to appeal to the Lord.

The instruction to the husband to love the wife as Christ loves the church is an instruction to follow Christ's example. Jesus demonstrates love and compassion to us, He does not force submission, He desires willing submission, God offers His sacrifice and free gift. God has authority and the power to force us to submit but He does not use it, instead He woo's us with love and kindness, and He encourages service by serving those He loves, He leads by example and not coercion or force.

God does instruct man to subdue the ground and rule over the animals, but He never directly instructs the man to enforce his authority over the wife. I believe God does not make such a statement because He does not give the man the authority to force anything upon the wife, so that the relationship does have some reflection of Christ's dealings with the church, the husband has the authority to love and serve, and the wife to submit to the husband only willingly, in the way we submit to Christ.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby 1whowaits on Sat May 21, 2016 9:43 pm

Abiding, as far as slaves they are instructed to obey their earthly masters as working for the Lord and not men, and masters were to provide the slaves with what was right and fair. Col 3-4. Slavery has been in existence for thousands of years. Some were enslaved by conquest in wars, some sold into slavery, and others willingly became slaves to pay debts or obtain money for their families. Some wished to stay with the master that they had so they became 'bond-slaves', permanent slaves.

God does not necessarily condone slavery, this is something men set up and were put into, whether willingly or unwillingly. God did set up the Year of Jubilee so that even those who sold themselves into slavery would not be permanent slaves.

So when God instructed slaves to obey their masters, He is addressing those who found themselves in that condition, many of which had willingly put themselves in that position. God's emphasis appears to be on learning to submit to authority as an act of submitting to Him, not whether one considers the 'authority' as being right or wrong. (kinda like marriage, is that your point?)

And slavery exists even today in certain parts of the world, as does marriage, from what i understand.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Sun May 22, 2016 4:45 am

1whowaits,

I take my little Boston Terrier for a walk and she minds me pretty well and I do curb her as any good owner ought.
But, she thinks I am her slave. She figures if I pick up her poop I must be the slave. I keep wondering if she is right.

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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 22, 2016 6:13 am

So man has the authority to love his wife, sacrifice himself for his wife, feed and care for his wife, and basically serve his wife. Man is not given any authority to enforce submission, command obedience or even speak harshly, he has the authority of service only. The submission to the authority of the husband is strictly voluntary, if the wife refuses the authority of the husband, the husband has no recourse other than to appeal to the Lord.


Just a bit nit picky here, 1whowaits, but your use of "man" instead of "husband" gives the impression that "men" have some inherent authority by virtue of being male. :wink: I hope that's not what you meant.

If you have claiming a husband has authority in any area of marriage, you must provide scriptural evidence. It does matter how we arrive at our conclusions.

While I have used the word "role" in the topic, you will notice I have added a question mark because there is not such word in scripture regardless of how many times we use it to devise a standard behavior for all husbands and wives. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it so, but it does make it much more difficult to separate the truth from the error as in the case of perceived "roles" for husbands and wives in scripture. Apparently the word means a script which defines the part an actor is going to play in a performance. That actor adopts the words and behaviors in order to portray the "character" and creates an illusion of reality rather than a mask that hides the actual identify of the actor.

Jesus strongly criticized the Pharisees by calling them "hypocrites"(G5273) which means "an actor under an assumed character (stage player). Today, we use the word "role" as meaning just the opposite of it's intended meaning as a mode of behavior that reflects an approved, moral standard to observe and follow. Christians have adopted this word to define masculinity and femininity and husbands and wives in an effort to enforce a pattern of behavior specific to each. However, nowhere does scripture even remotely set up different patterns or "roles" for male and female Christians based on their gender. To do so is to create a stage where actors are playing a part and all husbands and wives are reading from a script that will best reflect their masculinity and femininity. All Christians are to live their lives in a manner that reflects the behaviors found in the Bible with no exceptions due to their status, rank, ethnic origin, age, or gender. Therefore, masters are not exempt from the same behaviors enjoined on slaves; husbands are not exempt from the same behaviors enjoined on their wives; parents are not exempt from the same behaviors enjoined on their children.
Not only are none exempt, but outside of mutual authority to husbands and wives in sexual intimacy, no authority is given for Christians to define rank, privilege, status, responsibility or love. The entire list of behaviors is commanded to all believers without exception and certainly not to play a part by a imaginary script absent in scripture.

Each individual believer is unique in God's eyes and has gifts, talents, and strengths either as the result of natural development, education, or spiritually provided for particular use by God.

The reason I asked you why you ignored slavery earlier, was so you could see that while slavery existed throughout history, it was never endorsed nor designed by God as a "role" for any individuals. And while it existed because of mankind's desire to rule over others, God consistently curbed and enforced boundaries to eliminate the desire for such heinous, carnal desires of the flesh.

I was reading a paper written by a Princeton University professor who concluded his study with this:

During the millennium from the emergence of the Roman empire to its eventual decline, at least 100 million people – and possibly many more – were seized or sold as slaves throughout the Mediterranean and its hinterlands. In terms of duration and sheer numbers, this process dwarfs both the transatlantic slave trade of the European powers and the Arabic slave trade in the Indian Ocean. For all we can tell, enslavement and the slave trade constituted the principal means of geographical and (both upward and downward) social mobility in the ancient world (cf. Scheidel 2004b, 2005a). The modern observer must wonder how to do justice to the colossal scale of human suffering behind these bland observations: the story of the Roman slave supply must count as one of the darkest chapters of human history.


https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/s ... 050704.pdf

Because of the number of slaves in the Mediterranean world in the first century, you can easily see why Paul was not endorsing this hierarchical way of life between masters and slaves and why he entreated Philemon to change his desire to have authority over Onesimus and see him as an equal brother and continue in a mutual relationship.

In Eph. 5, Paul comforts those who have for centuries found themselves in subordinate positions by speaking to them first; wives, children, and slaves. He then sets boundaries by speaking next to those who are enforcing "roles"; husbands, parents, and masters. Not only was Paul not endorsing a hierarchy but as a Pharisee, he is keenly aware of the practice of some Hebrews owning slaves and even selling themselves when they were in debt, he is also keenly aware of the practice of sacrificing children to false gods as well as the despicable treatment of women and wives throughout history.

For these reasons, we should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul would never contradict Jesus' disdain for ruling over others as the Gentiles do. It's also the reason he specifically erased the distinctions that previously entitled some with privilege to the exclusion of others when he said "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28

So if some Christians wish to continue to endorse the same practices of the Gentiles in the kingdom of the world, they cannot be stopped, but we should never endorse that practice as the model or standard found in scripture.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 22, 2016 6:33 am

keithareilly wrote:But, she thinks I am her slave. She figures if I pick up her poop I must be the slave. I keep wondering if she is right.


:lol:

My father used to laugh when he saw my mother training a new pet. He insisted the dog was training her to his ways rather than the other way around.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Exit40 on Sun May 22, 2016 9:41 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Just a bit nit picky here, 1whowaits, but your use of "man" instead of "husband" gives the impression that "men" have some inherent authority by virtue of being male. :wink: I hope that's not what you meant.

Call it inherent, or natural, this does exist. It can be found all over our natural world.

If you have claiming a husband has authority in any area of marriage, you must provide scriptural evidence. It does matter how we arrive at our conclusions.


Absolutely, and I think what we are trying to do here is establish how we are to live as proper Christians following the word, and manage our natural conditions, essentially, our instincts. We cannot confuse these two, and there is a gender difference in how we behave towards each other in a marriage. In the world there is an order, and a pecking order. In a marriage, there is no such thing. One flesh cannot tell itself it is better than itself. Can this possibly make any sense ? Yet we try, in order to establish an order. This is our instinct speaking, we are designed to create order. And assign roles within our order for the purpose of, order, in order to perpetuate our species. Our own natural instinct is ingrained in us in the manner in which we are raised, the environment we grow up in. And we do this according to our order, and our pecking order within the order we live in. It is different for every individual, yet the same in that it is what we all deal with. The world. If we choose to answer our call and come to Christ, we must do so with an open heart to what He is saying. We are all individuals, yet the same in Him and in our Faith. Therefore the husband must overcome his natural instinctual role, and step into the one assigned by Christ. And the wife must overcome her natural instinctual role, and step into the one assigned by Christ. Scripture has gender based explanations of how to do this, each gender must strive to their own natural instinct and role in the world, and overcome it. This means examine the methods of how the world achieves order, by forcing and enforcing natural roles. Gender based behaviors come from this. It is about control. But what is control, except to make something look like what it may not be, rather how we want it to be.

I'm going fully with Abiding at this point. Actually have all along, but have failed to explain natural roles. Men, in order to be in a Scriptural marriage we must recognize and give up our natural instinct of setting up and maintaining order. There is a natural freedom in this, and a worldly power we think we have, but in reality that is what we submit to. And so give up our ability to have the oneness of 'one flesh' with anyone. Can't get there from here. Women have to understand this also, about how they maintain their own control. It is establishing a pecking order among themselves, and how they set about doing that, with their natural behaviors, strengths and weaknesses. These translate into how they handle men. This is where the true authority lies. It is a worldly power that is intoxicating, when recognized for it's use. This must be given up too, in all it's forms, or there can be no oneness of 'one flesh' here either.

Humans are a wee bit different in the natural world. We have the ability to have intimate relations at any time, we control this. Other species respond to nature, a seasonal instinct to reproduce. Instinct drives both, we respond naturally. This is what both genders give up, our instinct and natural drives to have and maintain order. Plenty of other Scriptures about this, nothing different in a marriage, except we are not to use our nature to control the other partner. If we do we neglect our directives of how we are to be Christian. Nature takes over, maybe a marriage will survive this, maybe not.

A solid Christian marriage is committed to Christ, and giving up our natural roles in the flesh, our own, to become one with each other as Christ is with His Church. Natural roles suggest strength, power, and control, in each gender. This can rightly be called, equal but separate. In Christ is equality, in marriage there is a great peace in this. As Christians our equality gives us this. We no longer struggle as the world does for control. To do so is to struggle against ourselves, a pointless endeavor within the oneness of marriage. Each gender gives up that which is it's own according to an understanding of nature and Scripture. There, simple right ? Ah the world is a tough place, no one survives either.

Consider, the giving up of natural instinctual roles is the hardest part in a Christian marriage. It is not give and take, it is give and receive. That is, not taking what is not given, our natural instinct is to do so. It is being a part of a whole that is greater than two one's. This is where the Scripture tells us how to do that. It is service oriented, just as the rest of Christianity is, towards each other. And we are equal in marriage, no one rules over the other, goes both ways. But must recognize that which we give up in order to have a Scripturally based Christian marriage. And that is the authority of our own individual genders, which we naturally apply to our lives. If we don't, then it's the males over here,and the females over there, and never the twain shall meet in unity. This can only be found in Christ, as fellow Christians of equal value to Him, in Him. This is based in love, the purest being agape, in which there is only service, willingly submitted to.

Look at it this way, no one changes a diaper, or picks up after a dog, except there be love. The greater the love, the greater the service, out of responsibility to the greater love, the one flesh in Christ.

God Bless

David
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And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 22, 2016 10:35 am

Exit40 wrote: Our own natural instinct is ingrained in us in the manner in which we are raised, the environment we grow up in. And we do this according to our order, and our pecking order within the order we live in. It is different for every individual, yet the same in that it is what we all deal with.


You have indeed hit the nail on the head here, David! Much of how we behave is the result of how we were raised, the environment we grow up in, and I might add today the image the media presents for both men and women. In addition, I would be remiss if I didn't add the image the church is trying to mold for each individual regardless of the lack of such gender defining in scripture.

I don't have much time right now, but I want to share an eye-opening experience I had one time that helped me understand how both men and women have purposely or inadvertently assumed the image they are bombarded with on a daily basis. I was making a donation at Salvation Army but when I drove up to the drop-off area, there was a sign that indicated we could just carry them in and leave them. The articles I had in my trunk were put there by my son and were far too heavy for me to lift out. I asked for assistance and a giant of a fellow came to help me unload the items. I said that I thought God had made only one mistake in creating men and women and that was not giving women the physical strength necessary for some jobs. He looked at me with an incredulous look on his face and said "whoa!! Women have their own strength they use to get what they want done!!!" He laughed and thanked me for my donation and I realized he evidently had much contact with that type of "strength" in women and he recognized my faulty reasoning that physical strength was the preferred one that is used to accomplish tasks. This is a "learned" behavior on the part of some women who are evidently modeling that which is seen today as a "strength" much the same as men learn that power is the image a "real" man will emulate lest he be labeled weak.

I have one more such epiphany to share later, but wanted to say there is much wisdom in your observation of what might be "instinctive" but is in reality carnal and flesh due to many reasons including "learned" behavior.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun May 22, 2016 1:17 pm

We no longer struggle as the world does for control. To do so is to struggle against ourselves, a pointless endeavor within the oneness of marriage.


And, I might add, within the unity of the whole body of Christ as well. Division is the result.

On the same subject as equality and mutuality, I want to suggest a experiment that was done by a 3rd grade teacher in 1985 to show her class of 3rd graders how it feels to be the victim of discrimination. The focus of the experiment was on whites and blacks and segregation following the death of Martin Luther King, Jr. It can easily be applied to the effects learned behavior and stereotypes can have unless they are recognized in our lives.

Jane Elliott begins by telling her 3rd-grade class that blue-eyed people are better than brown-eyed people. They are smarter and don't cause as much trouble as brown-eyed people. The class is thinking.... She tells them that those with blue-eyes can have extra time on the playground, 2nd helping of lunch today, can drink out of the water fountain, and other privileges the brown-eyes don't have. Those in the class with blue eyes are very happy needless to say. The brown-eyes not so much as you can imagine.

Then she puts collars on those with brown eyes so they are more easily identified. The feeling and recognition of privilege is almost immediate on the part of the blue-eyed children even to the extent one young boy suggests Ms. Elliott keep the yardstick close by "in case any of the brown-eyes gets out of hand." They are treating their own classmates differently based solely on the difference of physical body characteristics over which they had no control.

Later she turns the tables and endows the brown-eyed children with the privileges and removes them from the blue-eyed. It was a lesson in bias, prejudice, and learned behavior that I've never forgotten and you won't either if you decide to watch the video. It is 53 min. long and shows the reunion of the children 15 yrs. later to discuss what they learned that day and how it has affected their lives. You will be amazed and remember it for a long time as I have.

Here's the link to the PBS Special from 1985. "A Class Divided"

If you don't want to watch the video, a Google search for "A Class Divided" gives much more information. If I were to sum it up, it's definitely a lesson in treating others they way you want to be treated.
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby Spreading Salt on Sun May 22, 2016 5:45 pm

I have to say that I have learned so much from this thread. Thank you everyone for your contribution. :grin:

I haven't checked out the class divided, but just the explanation has my throat already choking up with emotion.

1whowaits - FANTASTIC!

David- Wow! So well explained.

Abiding - you are a woman on a mission for sure!

Blessings,

SS :a2:
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Re: Husband/Wife Roles?

Postby keithareilly on Sun May 22, 2016 6:20 pm

A solid Christian marriage is committed to Christ, and giving up our natural roles in the flesh, our own, to become one with each other as Christ is with His Church. Natural roles suggest strength, power, and control, in each gender. This can rightly be called, equal but separate. In Christ is equality, in marriage there is a great peace in this. As Christians our equality gives us this. We no longer struggle as the world does for control. To do so is to struggle against ourselves, a pointless endeavor within the oneness of marriage. Each gender gives up that which is it's own according to an understanding of nature and Scripture. There, simple right ? Ah the world is a tough place, no one survives either.


Well said David.
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