Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

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Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby keithareilly on Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:21 pm

Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Matthew 21:
12 And Jesus entered the temple[b] and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. 13 He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

Jesus never sinned, therefore, driving the people from the temple was an act of love.

Any ideas on tough love?

Keith
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby Exit40 on Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:13 am

Lawyers and greedy merchants are the most deserving of 'tough love', apparently. I am thinking it might be more about righteousness and judgement being called for in certain situations.

Psa 9:8
And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Jer 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.


God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby keithareilly on Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:56 am

David,

Matthew 24:12
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”

Without Righteousness and Judgement wickedness abounds resulting in less love.
On the other hand, exercising Righteousness and Judgement promote love; therefore, are loving actions.

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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby Exit40 on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:18 am

So if iniquity abounds, and love grows cold, doesn't Grace abound even more so ?

Rom 5:20-21
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


I think this is getting away from what you want to discuss though. Yes, we are to love our Brother as ourselves, turn the other cheek, and forgive 70 X 7, so is there a point in which we can say and do that which is considered tough love ? We know the Lord chastises those He loves, so shouldn't we be able to do the same ? Not that we have the Righteousness and perfect Judgement of the Lord, but can we be guided by Him through the Scriptures as to how to go about this ? There are things that are to be expected of the worldly, but the Church has rules for guidance within the Body itself. Is this what you are looking for regarding tough love ?

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby keithareilly on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:46 am

David,

So if iniquity abounds, and love grows cold, doesn't Grace abound even more so ?

To a point. For example, Up to the Flood of Noah's day.

Perhaps when we fail to exercise loving judgments we make such things as the flood, war, etc necessary.

This topic is about:
How and When to love people for their own good even at the expense of having a relationship with them.

FYI: This topic was prompted by two separate situations with two different Christians unrelated to this board.


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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:18 pm

This topic is about:
How and When to love people for their own good even at the expense of having a relationship with them.


How do you love someone for their own good and yet not be in a relationship with them? :humm:

The "tough love" part of this thread really got me interested, because a friends' teenager is in full rebellion now, having just been kicked out of her school for defiance with teachers and cutting class....all things she had complete control over. The girl isn't having the problems at home, but at school, she is constantly getting into trouble. She is on probation at this new school (today was 1st day), and already, the gym teacher called her mom....FIRST DAY....and said she told the girl to put up phone, she did and pulled it out again, so she took it the second time....and then the girl went and got her computer out of her bag....so she defied the teacher 3 separate times in a 50 minute class. I am at a loss as to what to tell her mother, when she called, exasperated and expressing the desire to not have anything else to do with her wayward daughter....other than complete her obligation to house, clothe and feed the girl.....mother says she is worn out emotionally from all the trouble and phone calls and nomatter what she tells her child, the girl just keeps stirring trouble wherever she goes.
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:41 am

Tough love sometimes says "if you don't stop what you are doing, we can't have a relationship".

I think when Jesus drove those from the temple He was saying: This is the wrong relationship and It is over.

What I wonder is:
If being tougher sooner would prevent things from getting to that point or would it accelerate things or is it situation dependent.


Hopefully, more readers will tell of their experiences.

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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby Exit40 on Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:50 am

Here is an example of very tough love.

Co 5:3-5
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


The deed and the flesh are destroyed so the Spirit can be saved.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby keithareilly on Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:15 pm

David,

OK, but suppose the situation is two people who are not able to get along.
As Christians, we ought to be able to get along. But, I have found that is not always possible.

When we love someone, we do good for them.
What if what we think is good for them is not what they think is good for them?
What if what they think is good for them, we think is unloving?

How does one deal with this?

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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:31 pm

keithareilly wrote:When we love someone, we do good for them.
What if what we think is good for them is not what they think is good for them?


Keith, this is pretty vague imo. It has no context. For example, when we love our children, of course we use good parenting skills in guiding them. We discipline when necessary; praise for good behavior; and encourage when they are discouraged. These are the "good we do for them" because we love them.

Now if what we think is good for them is not what they think is good for them....we could understand why they wouldn't think discipline is a good thing.

But the dynamics would be entirely different between two adults. We wouldn't impose our "good" on another adult regardless of what we think is good if they expressed an unwillingness to receive it.

I would need more specificity to answer your tough love vs the greatest commandment question because not all circumstances and/or individuals should be treated the same way.
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby keithareilly on Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:05 am

Abiding,

I would need more specificity to answer your tough love vs the greatest commandment question because not all circumstances and/or individuals should be treated the same way.


FYI: The topic is not "vs" it is "and".

Consider an adult who believes that they are free to change their mind at any time.
This includes calling at the last minute, standing people up, not following through on commitments, etc.
After experiencing this repeatedly, I decided their is no point in interacting with this person on any level.
I know why this person does this, it is fear. Fear of the loss of their freedom. Commitments of any sort are binding.

Another person discontinued periodic meetings to chat over coffee because a new boyfriend wanted me gone.
This is someone whom I thought was my friend for almost 40 years.
This decision demonstrated she was not my friend though she still insists otherwise.
This persons friendship I have concluded is not better than one who says "Be warm and filled" but is not charitable.

The older I get, the more I find people are less than trustworthy.
Without trust, how is any loving relationship supposed to exist?
What is the right loving thing to do? Leave them be? Be patient?
Accept them for who they are and put up with such behavior?

When Christ left behind the people following him who only followed him because He fed them,
was he loving them by refusing to allow a relationship to exist under those terms ?

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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:14 am

keithareilly wrote:FYI: The topic is not "vs" it is "and".


I stand corrected on that, Keith. Thank you.

After experiencing this repeatedly, I decided their is no point in interacting with this person on any level.


I think friendships are based mainly on the things we have in common with one another; i.e. values, sporting events, hobbies, religious affiliation, clubs, etc. It would be difficult for one person to fit all those areas of friendships, so we have a variety of them. I wouldn't call a friend who hated sports and invite them to a hockey game. Likewise, I would most likely graciously turn down an invitation to a rock concert but expressing a "thanks anyway" for the invite.

Another person discontinued periodic meetings to chat over coffee because a new boyfriend wanted me gone.
This is someone whom I thought was my friend for almost 40 years.


I hear your disappointment, but personally I understand the new boyfriend's concern about a meeting with another man. On the other hand, we have "chats" with co-workers of the opposite sex all the time at work and at church so it can be harmless but it might be different were it not a chat that takes place in a group environment.

This decision demonstrated she was not my friend though she still insists otherwise.
This persons friendship I have concluded is not better than one who says "Be warm and filled" but is not charitable.


People change; circumstances and situations change; interests and priorities change. Some stay the same over long periods of time, but others change many times in rapid succession. I've had friends for 25 yrs. that I still consider my friends even though I moved away to another state and haven't seen them for many years since moving to Florida. We still email or phone one another, but over time the interaction has dwindled as new friendships are formed closer to home.

“Some people come into our lives and quickly go. Some stay for a while, leave footprints on our hearts, and we are never, ever the same” ― Flavia Weedn

What is the right loving thing to do? Leave them be? Be patient?
Accept them for who they are and put up with such behavior?


We don't really have a choice, do we? We must accept people for who they are but when their behavior becomes more than we can tolerate, we should feel free to move on and limit interaction. That's not being unkind, just common sense imo.

My son gave me the book by Dr. Henry Cloud entitled "Boundaries: When to say yes; When to say no; to take control of your life. You may find it helpful. I did.

When Christ left behind the people following him who only followed him because He fed them,
was he loving them by refusing to allow a relationship to exist under those terms ?


I think you're asking the wrong question. Jesus did remove Himself from friends, family, and followers at times when He felt a need to get away for some solitude. Jesus met people where they were and provided what they needed when they needed it. I don't think He turned anyone away because they had needs.
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby Exit40 on Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:38 am

keithareilly wrote:
Consider an adult who believes that they are free to change their mind at any time.
This includes calling at the last minute, standing people up, not following through on commitments, etc.
After experiencing this repeatedly, I decided their is no point in interacting with this person on any level.
I know why this person does this, it is fear. Fear of the loss of their freedom. Commitments of any sort are binding.


Not too tough a decision. A relationship that is not committed to common sense values is very one sided, and you made a proper decision, IMO. I would do the same. Even after many attempts to have the common value, that being respect for another, and self, enough to honor agreements made. But this relationship has not ended, just changed form. The loss of personal company is self preservation in a way, and properly demonstrated may contain a lesson for the other party to look at, and possibly apply elsewhere, if not a return to companionship again.

Another person discontinued periodic meetings to chat over coffee because a new boyfriend wanted me gone.
This is someone whom I thought was my friend for almost 40 years.
This decision demonstrated she was not my friend though she still insists otherwise.
This persons friendship I have concluded is not better than one who says "Be warm and filled" but is not charitable.


I disagree here, this person is your friend. That she has a commitment to another she wants to honor should be respected by you. Difficult no doubt to lose periodic companionship, but the honorable thing to do is let her live her life. To do or think otherwise is to degrade your own self in your ability to have a relationship. This is about trust, yours too. It is up to her to regard her boyfriends trust for what it is, distrust. It is not about you, not even her, but his ownership of the relationship. When she sees that for what it is , perhaps she will renew her companionship with you, if you let her make her own decisions. No one owns any part of a relationship, but their own part. If you respect that in another, it is fulfilling the Great Commandment, to love another as you love yourself.

The older I get, the more I find people are less than trustworthy.
Without trust, how is any loving relationship supposed to exist?
What is the right loving thing to do? Leave them be? Be patient?
Accept them for who they are and put up with such behavior?


You may be asking too much in a relationship, and mixing up a totally committed one with casual ones. There will never be a perfect one, get used to that idea. Consider a long term marriage, it only gets to be long term because one or both have been forgiving, understanding, and accepting, even if temporarily, but with the idea of maintaining the marriage long term. It takes communication, respect, and responsibility to each other for each other, with the goal of being together long term kept closely in mind. People do change in their short term goals, if you love them for 'who' they are, 'what' they are becomes icing on that cake. So pick your marriage partner carefully. Divorce is 50/50, marriage is 100%, for both parties. Sometimes you give a lot, sometimes you get a lot. I think patience is the greater part of love much of the time. There is a saying, if you love someone set them free. If they choose to come back they love you too. If not, you've lost nothing really, especially if you have honored their right to choose. The secret is, do this every day, all day. True love teaches this because that is what it is. Those who are capable of this learn it from you, unless they already have it. In which case consider yourself incredibly fortunate to find such a one.

When Christ left behind the people following him who only followed him because He fed them,
was he loving them by refusing to allow a relationship to exist under those terms ?


These people wanted their Messiah to do something for them. It wasn't time yet for what they wanted. Still isn't. Patience and Faith Keith, Patience and Faith.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby Ready1 on Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:37 pm

This may have some bearing on the topic.

Mat 18:15 "If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back.
Mat 18:16 But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses.
Mat 18:17 If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won't accept the church's decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector.

Just observing.

E.
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:27 pm

Ready1,

I am not certain I would classify these behaviors as sinning against someone. I could be wrong here.

My daughter, when in her teens, once asked me about someone who wanted her to stop being friends with another if she wished to friends with that person. I told her, "Lose the one who asks you to give up another and keep the one that does not ask. The one who asks you to sacrifice another is not your friend. They are interested in what they want, not what you want."

In part this is my struggle. Love accepts one as they are. Love also makes good decisions for ourselves and others.

Tough love might be defined as:
You are not making good decisions for yourself and I will not accept less than you loving yourself.

Keith
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Re: Tough Love and the Greatest Commandment

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:33 pm

David,

I understand the difference between acquaintances and friends.

Mostly, I think it is more about me having my eyes opened and no longer thinking better of those who continuously demonstrate who they are.

It is also about: I may choose to be someone's friend but I must recognize they are not necessarily my friend.


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