Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:31 am

As the other thread is about how one's beliefs might change, this thread has been set up for any debating or just expressing support for your view.

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy weeks[c] are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Daniel 9:25-27
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again[e] with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[f] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[g] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

I believe the time period underlined above takes place during the 70th week. As it takes place after the 7 and 62 it cannot therefore be during the first 69 weeks. I also believe that the cutting off of the Messiah was necessary to accomplish the 70 weeks prophecy. This places the period of time when the Messiah was cut off outside the 69 weeks but necessarily within the 70 weeks . The only week left is the 70th week. Therefore, I conclude that the 70th week is mentioned implicitly not explicitly as the period when Christ was crucified.

So what about the one week explicitly mentioned in Daniel 9:27? Since there is nothing in the verse that is necessary to accomplish the objectives in verse 24 I see no reason to consider it part of the 70 weeks prophecy. After some deliberation, the only reason to conclude the one week of Daniel 9:27 is the 70th week is because it is mentioned explicitly instead of implicitly. Fuethermore, the first 69 weeks are mentioned by number whereas there is no number associated with the week in verse 27. It a labelled one week, not labelled the 70th week. There is no other reason to consider it the 70th week.

When I weigh the implicit mention of the Messiah being cutoff and that being necessary to be accomplished during the 70 weeks against simply the explicit label of a one week prophecy in verse 27, I conclude there is more reason to label the period the Messiah was cutoff as the 70th week.

Keith
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:57 pm

keithareilly wrote:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[f] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[g] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
I believe the time period underlined above takes place during the 70th week. As it takes place after the 7 and 62 it cannot therefore be during the first 69 weeks. I also believe that the cutting off of the Messiah was necessary to accomplish the 70 weeks prophecy. This places the period of time when the Messiah was cut off outside the 69 weeks but necessarily within the 70 weeks .

:a3:
Keith,
It is just beyond reason to think otherwise.
So many disagree, and as Exit 40 and I have said many times....we used to believe differently also.

To believe that Christ's Atoning Work could have occurred Outside of the 70 weeks proper is just Absurd and Unthinkable IMO.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:34 pm

Shorttribber,

Usually, there is a lot of investment in o a belief structure and change is resisted.
What changed your mind?

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:05 pm

keithareilly wrote:Shorttribber,

Usually, there is a lot of investment in o a belief structure and change is resisted.
What changed your mind?

Keith


I read (past tense and present tense) the scriptures for myself instead of simply believing the Modern Dispensationalist/Futurist ideas.
Also, I found it very important to consider what I had been taught as "Possible" but not "Absolutely Factual", and prove prophetic ideas personally.

Were you ever completely Futurist or Modern Dispensationalist?

Labels are not always accurate, I know, but I think you know what I'm asking right?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:13 pm

Shorttribber,

I have always held the belief that some prophecy was fulfilled and some was yet to come.
I did not study prophecy until I joined this board, just listened here and there to ideas.
To this day, I lack sufficient knowledge to have an opinion on most views.

When I joined this board, whenever that was,
I was reading what was posted and comparing it to scripture; the separation of the 70 weeks did not sit well.
After much historical research and prayer, God showed me what I posted.
I posted what I was shown then. No one seemed to agree.

It is nice to know I am not alone.

As a side note: Two things have influenced me most where prophecy is concerned.

First was the Gulf War under Bush 1.
I watched the news and it looked like the stars were falling from the sky as missiles were raining down at night.
The second was a map I saw in the early 2000's of the European Union as it was signing up new members.
It looked like a woman riding a beast.
These two events, years apart, prompted my to begin research into prophecy and led me to this board.


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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:25 pm

keithareilly wrote:It is nice to know I am not alone.

:read: I do think more and more people are beginning to consider the idea that Christ's Sacrifice Did, By Necessity, Occur During the 70th week. :read:

So, we are becoming less and less isolated in our opinion on that :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:37 pm

Shorttribner,

What is your opinion on the two World Wars with regards to nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom?
World War One started over 100 years ago, 1914 -1918.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:48 pm

keithareilly wrote:Shorttribner,

What is your opinion on the two World Wars with regards to nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom?
World War One started over 100 years ago, 1914 -1918.

Keith

I think they've greatly fulfilled prophecy in part. You are aware of my position on the Horses/Chariots/Riders aren't you? That three of the four Horses of Revelation 6 have been riding for quite some time...just wait'n for number four to Climb in the saddle.
Seems he already has one foot in a stirrup!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:55 pm

Shorttribber wrote ...
I think they've greatly fulfilled prophecy in part. You are aware of my position on the Horses/Chariots/Riders aren't you? That three of the four Horses of Revelation 6 have been riding for quite some time...just wait'n for number four to Climb in the saddle.
Seems he already has one foot in a stirrup!


Sorry, No. Few of my posts here are actually about prophecy. Mostly I haven't sufficient knowledge to judge the view.
But, I am more than happy to read it if you have link.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:01 pm

keithareilly wrote:Shorttribber wrote ...
I think they've greatly fulfilled prophecy in part. You are aware of my position on the Horses/Chariots/Riders aren't you? That three of the four Horses of Revelation 6 have been riding for quite some time...just wait'n for number four to Climb in the saddle.
Seems he already has one foot in a stirrup!


Sorry, No. Few of my posts here are actually about prophecy. Mostly I haven't sufficient knowledge to judge the view.
But, I am more than happy to read it if you have link.

Keith

K.....I think you might find it very reasonable....and interesting.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=68781
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:00 am

Shorttribber,

Yes, I found it interesting. I don't know enough to comment on it though.
But it does seem like a consistent pattern.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:11 am

Shorttribber,

One of the interesting things about Christ being crucified during the 70th week, is it closes the 70 weeks and therefore what was to be accomplished must have been accomplished. This in turn forces us to consider the meaning of what was accomplished. As in seeds planted but not matured.

John 8:31-36
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Interestingly, one must first abide in Christ's word before one can know the truth, once one knows the truth, one is free from enslavement to sin.

But, I have to admit, knowing and believing the truth sufficiently to cease sinning seems to be awfully hard.

We are not under the law of sin and death; but I find it hard to lose my fear and accept grace. I feel death when I grieve the Spirit.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:34 am

keithareilly wrote:One of the interesting things about Christ being crucified during the 70th week, is it closes the 70 weeks and therefore what was to be accomplished must have been accomplished. This in turn forces us to consider the meaning of what was accomplished. As in seeds planted but not matured.

I agree so much with this...with the exception of the closure of the 70th week completely.
Not Yet, as the Maturation is nearly upon us as the "People of God".
The "Planting" of the Lord is "Marvelous in our eyes", but The Harvest of what He Planted is Very Soon.

Soon...the following things you've said will be answered.....Gloriously!
keithareilly wrote:Interestingly, one must first abide in Christ's word before one can know the truth, once one knows the truth, one is free from enslavement to sin. But, I have to admit, knowing and believing the truth sufficiently to cease sinning seems to be awfully hard.We are not under the law of sin and death; but I find it hard to lose my fear and accept grace. I feel death when I grieve the Spirit.

Soon, we will Abide in His Word as the Body of Christ has never been Enabled by His Grace before.
Soon His Power will be Irresistible in us!

Do you understand what I'm saying......
:banana: We WILL NOT Resist His Power to Overcome Sin, Division and Immaturity when That Time Comes. :banana:

Soon, Very Soon I think.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:09 am

1 Corinthinas 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is my hope that "raised incorruptible" means: a new body in which sin cannot reside or penetrate.
Sin is condemned in this flesh, so I think this might be reasonable.

I do not grasp what is in our future, but, if a new incorruptible body, in which I no longer have to struggle against Sin's desire to reign, is part of it, then I can rejoice at what is to come. Otherwise, I have no real grasp of what there is to rejoice about.


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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:18 am

keithareilly wrote:1 Corinthinas 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is my hope that incorruptible means: a new body in which sin cannot reside or penetrate.

Keith

That is describing the Change of our bodies at the Coming and Gathering to Christ...Rapture.

What I'm referring to will occur Sometime Before that event. How much time before that event I'm unsure....maybe the full 3.5 years, maybe 2 years, a year, month, or week...just don't know.

But I Wholly believe those things I've described Will occur Before the Rapture/Gathering to Christ in the Clouds.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:45 am

Shorttribber,

I hope what you are saying is doubts will be weakened and faith increased.
I want to win the crown that goes along with overcoming sin. I don't ant to loose that.
But, I would swap it for a sin proof body if I can't win the crown. :)


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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:47 am

When you changed your beliefs about Christ and the 70 weeks,
How did that affect your other beliefs?

What was the structure of faith you had then verses what is the structure of faith you have built to replace the old.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:21 am

keithareilly wrote:When you changed your beliefs about Christ and the 70 weeks,
How did that affect your other beliefs?

What was the structure of faith you had then verses what is the structure of faith you have built to replace the old.

Keith

Those are great questions...must answer later this evening. I'm wiring challenged and I'm trying to fix ignition on a couple old vans we have :mrgreen:

Pray for my assistance from the Lord ok...thankya and luv ya
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:10 pm

hey keith,
feeling under the weather now a bit...gotta rest I think.
need to get back to this tomorrow...not much progress on the vans either. Charging problems, gauges, uugh :(

bless ya...got to go to bed early I think
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:20 pm

Shorttribber,

I have been reading the 7 Years tribulation thread.

If the 70th week was the week Christ was crucified,
What is the reason for trying to make the 1 week in Daniel 9:27 be part of the 70 weeks?

Daniel 9:26b-27
And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its[f] end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,[g] and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

The first Roman Jewish War was 7 years long (66AD - 73AD).
General Vespasian, turned it over to his so Titus, second in command.
Vespasian was crowned Emperor in 69AD making Titus a prince.
Prince Titus, in early 70AD attacked Jerusalem putting an end to the sacrifices and making desolate.
After the destruction, the tenth legion was then turned over to Lucillias Ballus to mop of what was left as Titus left for Rome.

It seems to me, if the week Christ was crucified was the 70th week we don't need to try to fit the one week in Daniel 9:27 into the 70 weeks.

On Its own, that one week in Daniel 9:27 describes the First Jewish Roman War quite well.

So why try to fit it in as part of the 70 weeks?

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:22 pm

keithareilly wrote:It seems to me, if the week Christ was crucified was the 70th week we don't need to try to fit the one week in Daniel 9:27 into the 70 weeks.

Hi Keith, first I should answer your other questions about how the changes in certain prophetic positions have effected my relationship with the Lord....but I must do so later.
I'm sorry for the delay...was feeling poorly last few days.

Anyway will answer later on that.

To answer your question above...it does get a bit complicated. let me quote from another thread regarding what you've asked here.......

"The Confirmation of THE Covenant (Dan 9:27) is IMO the very CENTER, the Absolute CENTER of Bible prophecy.
And from that Scripture are variant Forms, Types, Shadows or Layers that proceed From the Old Testament period to it, and From the New Testament period from it.

It is as a Mirror, reflecting Back through the Old Testament all the way to the garden and God's Promise of Redemption through the SEED of the Woman. And that same Mirror reflects onward through the New Testament until God's Promise is Fully Realized of God's People, the Redeemed.

There can be Many Confirmations of anything God determines to Confirm. That is One Reason Why there are Layers, Shadows, Reflections, Types or how ever the Confirmations of Truth can be possibly described.

So if there is more than One Witness, that thing, what ever it be, Shall be........Established/Confirmed.
We could say, a prophecy that is first said, is one witness and the other is the fulfillment....and the truth is then Established/Confirmed.
That's a reasonable conclusion. but as I said, there can be well more than One, two, three or how ever many witnesses God chooses to Establish or Confirm anything he desires.

That is the case IMO, Especially when the Virtual Center of Bible Prophecy is in View, such as Daniels 70 weeks....and Even more so as the Focus of That Prophecy is Squarely on Christ and His Redemptive Work.


Now, this next part is where some explanation of layered prophecy exists.....

IMO, the he (of verse 27)ALSO was Vespasian as a Servant or Vessel OF the ONE (CHRIST) who's Covenant (Abrahamic Covenant) was to be partially Confirmed in Jacob (Carnal, Unbelieving Israel, Cursed Under the LAW), Not the Israel Of God (Blessed by the Righteousness of Faith).
Ps 105
9 Which COVENANT he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And CONFIRMED the same unto Jacob........ for a law,......... and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:



The colored areas above define The Function and Fulfillments of the Two Variations/TYPES of "Daniel's People".

Looking at what Daniel was told, "seventy weeks are determined upon Thy People". We need first to examine the meaning of "Thy People". There is a clear reference to, They of whom the Promises of The Abrahamic Covenant were CONFINED. Now then, how were/are "the People" CONFINED BY The Covenant of Abraham? How were they Held Captive BY it?
Because they "Agreed/Covenanted" WITH God......TO it, at Mt. Sinai., they were bound in covenant by their acceptance to DO All that was Contained in the Law of Moses, All the While having the Seal or Token of the Righteousness OF Faith in their Flesh.
But for the vast majority of Daniels "People", that is as much as they felt the Covenant WAS, They had determined that the Circumcision of the Flesh Was the greatest Evidence of their Acceptance WITH God as "A PEOPLE".
And they were "A PEOPLE", But they were "Daniels People", It took Something Else to be "God's People".
Faith is what it took.........and a remnant among them had it.......but most of them, especially the ones most Responsible for Having it, had it not.
Anyway, there were basically two variations/varieties of "Daniels People", those that were Bound in Covenant BY Obedience and Faith in the Righteousness of Gods Law and Promises, and those who were Bound by the Condemnation of the Law of Sin and Death, Without Faith through Rebellion.

The Seventy weeks were Determined upon these two Varieties of "Daniels People", but as I said, a "Remnant" OF "Daniels People" WERE "God's People", but the vast majority of them, sadly, were not "God's People".
Nevertheless, the Text says, "Daniel's People"."

So Keith, to put this another way, the 70 weeks prophecy is In some sense, Basically Twofold. [1] A Confirmation (of the Law contained in the Abrahamic covenant) of God's Desolation of the Faithless/Rebellious.....[2] and a Confirmation (of the Grace Through Faith in the Promised SEED of Abraham {Christ}) of God's Blessing of the Faithful/Obedient.

I repeat, Yes, Christ CONFIRMED the Abrahamic Covenant, the "Mosaic Law" Portion OF The Abrahamic Covenant that "WAS ADDED BECAUSE of Unbelief", WITH Unbelieving Israel, With "Many", Yes he did, "Many of Daniels People" that Were in the Deepest Rebellion, Sin and Unbelief.
Did "He" Use Vespasian to Accomplish and Fulfill a Confirmation of His Covenant? He certainly Did, He Did indeed.
IN DEED, His WORK/ACTION/DEED, Christ's Action, Christ's Work, Christ's Deed....through Vespasian.

When Christ's Blood was "On" ("his blood be "on" us and "on" our children")the "Many" of the Rebellious and Unrepentant of "Daniel's People", He Confirmed the Law of Moses, that was Subservient and only a Part of the Abrahamic covenant.
He Confirmed, the Curse of the Law upon the Rebellious and Guilty.

He gave them the same Space to Repent (40 years) as before......but they "Would Not". Previously he gave them space to "Receive the Truth", While He was Confirming the Truth, During the Ministry of John, and himself, and they "Would Not". During the preaching of Paul, Murder of Stephen and through the remainder of the 40 year Space to Repent, He Confirms the Truth of the Law WITH, the Rebellious "Many" Further and Finally until 70ad, and That PART of the Confirmation was Completed.

This is among the most glaring examples of One of the Reasons that the Layers in prophecy Exist. Why, you may ask is this example so important?
Because it shows how Two Absolutely Different "Peoples" Identified By the Same Name or Designation can be "Called", "Daniel's People", when there was/is More than One Portion/Layer of "The Confirmation of The Covenant" Applied to Them as One People.
The Confirmation process is not Over, there is yet more Coming........soon. :banana:
Last edited by shorttribber on Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:42 pm

keithareilly wrote:It seems to me, if the week Christ was crucified was the 70th week we don't need to try to fit the one week in Daniel 9:27 into the 70 weeks.On Its own, that one week in Daniel 9:27 describes the First Jewish Roman War quite well.


Yes it does, you're right there.....but it does not finish there....even though it can stand alone.
Chiastic structure is repetitious, And All the Prophets Wrote in That Style
THAT DOES VERY GREATLY MATTER imo

The Word Covenant in vs27 is Meant to be Understood in Union with Cut (Karath) of verse 26.......As In "Cut Covenant"
Because, vs 27 is a Further Revealing of the REASON for Messiah being "CUT OFF" For the Many, and the Sacrifices of the LAW to Cease...Forever....Not Stop, to be started again some day....But Cease, CEASE! Forever
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:02 am

Shorttribber,

Not sure I am sophisticated enough to follow all that. Let me chew on it.

You did say ...
The Word Covenant in vs27 is Meant to be Understood in Union with Cut (Karath) of verse 26.......As In "Cut Covenant"
Because, vs 27 is a Further Revealing of the REASON for Messiah being "CUT OFF" For the Many, and the Sacrifices of the LAW to Cease...Forever....Not Stop, to be started again some day....But Cease, CEASE! Forever


I understand this to mean BECAUSE messiah was cut off.
As in, because messiah was cut off, there is one week for the destruction of Jerusalem and stopping of the sacrifices.
I see verse 26 as transition from what happens during the 70 weeks to the consequences of what happens during the 70 weeks. Not to say the consequences were not the fulfillment of justice prophesied in the the Old Covenant.

In summary,
I see the 70 weeks in verse 24, then the one week (verse 27) as the consequences of what took place during the 70.
Yes, very closely related, but the one week in Daniel verse 27 is not pat of the 70 weeks of verse 24,
it is separate but related very closely though cause (first 70 verse 24) and effect (one week of verse 27).

I don't see this different from the REASON you mentioned.
Sacrifices were also stopped permanently because messiah was cut off and there was no more need.


Is this any different than what you said? If so, How?

By the way, don't worry about answering how you have changed your view for right now.
I think we are coming at the same thing from different histories so I think that is being revealed.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:52 am

keithareilly wrote:Is this any different than what you said? If so, How?

Yes. The "Cutting Off", or "Cut" is mentioned, and That Is the Reason for the Ceasing of Sacrifices. But, That Cessation Is not Mentioned in vs 26, But it Is Mentioned in vs 27....That's the Difference.

The Repetitious Nature of the Chiastic Structure Matters, in this case it Matters Because of these prophetic words......

Ps 40:
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
Hebrews
10
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I'm aware that verses were not in the Original Hebrew or Greek text....
But they are Now, and I believe God Does want us to Take Notice of Very Glaring Parallels in Scripture Now

There are Very Important Parallels Regarding theses Exact Texts we are discussing....below is another example, and link from another thread where there has been some discussion about them...


Hebrews.............NINE:TWENTYSIX
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the.......... end of the world hath......... HE APPEARED........... to PUT AWAY SIN (Daniel 9:24...... to make an end of sins....) by the....................... sacrifice of himself.(Death/CUT OFF)

Daniel............... NINE:TWENTYSIX
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be.............CUT OFF,............. but not for himself:(But for MANY Hebrews NINE: TWENTYEIGHT) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

.................................................................................................................................................
Insert the very well known, Daniel NINE:TWENTYSEVEN here........
.................................................................................................................................................

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was........... once offered........... to bear the sins ..........of MANY;......... and unto them that look for him....................SHALL He APPEAR................ the second time.......... without sin unto salvation.

This is the last verse in Hebrews 9


Then on to Hebrews 10 .......where the Parrellel Noted Above exists

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=70166
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:58 pm

Shorttribber,

Yes. The "Cutting Off", or "Cut" is mentioned, and That Is the Reason for the Ceasing of Sacrifices. But, That Cessation Is not Mentioned in vs 26, But it Is Mentioned in vs 27....That's the Difference.


I get this: because Christ was Cut off there is no more need for the sacrifices.
I get this: the consequences of crucifying Christ (having it being on theirs and their Children's heads) is manifested in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

James 1:15
But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

The destruction of Jerusalem is death brought forth from the sin of murdering an innocent man.
Sin and death are also like the seed planted then maturing.
The seed was planted during the 70 weeks at the Crucifixion.
The matured seed of that sin (Death) occurred in 70AD in the middle of the one week of verse 27.

Again related but not apart of the 70 weeks. Nothing there in verse 27 accomplishes what is part of the 70 weeks.

I get that all of it is part of a bigger picture, a greater prophecy, Daniel 9 just gives us the time frame for certain events. It is the schedule for closing the Old Covenant and enacting a New Covenant.

I'm Having trouble with why the fruition of sin (Death) in verse 27 should be in the 70 weeks.
Or are you saying the 70 weeks is over, but the one week of verse 27 is not over?

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:21 pm

Shortribber,

The Word Covenant in vs27 is Meant to be Understood in Union with Cut (Karath) of verse 26.......As In "Cut Covenant"
Because


From the Vespasian fulfillment perspective
This would imply that there was also a covenant to: not destroy the temple.
I am aware that Josephus records that it was the intention of Titus to: not destroy the temple.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:30 pm

keith,

It is my humble opinion that the 1 week of years of Daniel 9:27 is separated by around 3,050 years from the 70 weeks of years as found in Daniel 9:24.

However, I need to study and reflect a lot more on the scriptures that are there in the Bible that supports this perspective/reflection of the scriptures.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:09 am

keithareilly wrote:I get this: because Christ was Cut off there is no more need for the sacrifices.

Yes, true. Why not simply understand the Cessation of Sacrifices AND Oblation stated plainly as perfectly Reasonable then?
keithareilly wrote:I get this: the consequences of crucifying Christ (having it being on theirs and their Children's heads) is manifested in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

True Again. But why not recognize that the Desolations described Until the End in verse 27 are simply Repetitious forms of vs 26?
keithareilly wrote:Again related but not apart of the 70 weeks. Nothing there in verse 27 accomplishes what is part of the 70 weeks.

Gotta just disagree on that.
keithareilly wrote:I get that all of it is part of a bigger picture, a greater prophecy, Daniel 9 just gives us the time frame for certain events. It is the schedule for closing the Old Covenant and enacting a New Covenant.

Will elaborate on this, in just a minute
keithareilly wrote:I'm Having trouble with why the fruition of sin (Death) in verse 27 should be in the 70 weeks.

It's not necessary that the "END/Fruition" be accomplished In the 70 weeks...Only the "MAKING OF/ Establishing Of" the "End of Sin".
That was Already Accomplished at the Cross, In the first Part of the 70 weeks.
keithareilly wrote: are you saying the 70 weeks is over, but the one week of verse 27 is not over?

The 70 weeks is not over, no, we are "In the Midst", Between the "Two Parts" of it.

Now, back to this...
keithareilly wrote:I get that all of it is part of a bigger picture, a greater prophecy, Daniel 9 just gives us the time frame for certain events. It is the schedule for closing the Old Covenant and enacting a New Covenant

Does the text say that? Does the text say essentially "It is the schedule for closing the Old Covenant and enacting a New Covenant?
I don't think it does, I think it is Much More Specific....here it is...

....................................understand the matter, and consider the vision............................................

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks........................
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..................................
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,.............................................................

I've shortened the text above only to allow a focus on the TIMES Determined

If we wish to Disjoin the last Seven from the 70 Weeks Determined for Daniel's and Our Understanding, does that not seem odd to you?
For God to Describe What He has Determined, and Plainly State in vs24 the Time Allotment for Such Determinations, and then Add Another TIME (One Extra Week), seems very Unclear, and not at All to be Understood
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:44 am

ST,

That really depends on whether or not the first coma in this verse existed in the first place? If it, the coma, was added then the understanding of the verse was deliberately changed by later scribes to reflect the meaning that they desired and not what was originally found in the verse. I would also suggest that the next "and" in the English wording of the verse is also a miss understanding of the translators and that the "and" should have been translated as '"and then" to put an end to sin.' which means that the 490 years had finished and the rest of the prophecy will follow the after the 490 years has been completed in time.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:32 am

Jay Ross wrote:ST,

That really depends on whether or not the first coma in this verse existed in the first place? If it, the coma, was added then the understanding of the verse was deliberately changed by later scribes to reflect the meaning that they desired and not what was originally found in the verse. I would also suggest that the next "and" in the English wording of the verse is also a miss understanding of the translators and that the "and" should have been translated as '"and then" to put an end to sin.' which means that the 490 years had finished and the rest of the prophecy will follow the after the 490 years has been completed in time.


There is no doubt that punctuation can change the meaning of any text. That's why I think that for Any scripture to be correctly Understood that each text Depend On other Supporting Texts.
Those Kinds of Supporting (or Parallel) Texts have been provided earlier in this thread, and many other threads where we have discussed Daniel 9:24-27.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:28 am

Shortribber wrote,

If we wish to Disjoin the last Seven from the 70 Weeks Determined for Daniel's and Our Understanding, does that not seem odd to you?


Actually, No, I don't; I think it makes less sense to include the one week in Daniel 9:27 into the 70.


What makes the most sense to me is:
There are the 70 weeks contiguous
The first 69 are stated explicitly,
The 70th is stated implicitly and is the week in which Christ was cut off (after the 69 but during the 70).

I see the the one week mentioned in verse 27 as an independent prophecy related to the 70 weeks prophecy only through action (70 weeks) and consequences (one week).

So, I see 71 weeks in total.
70 weeks for accomplishing of what is in verse 24.
1 week for the consequences of what happened in during the 70 weeks.
I see verse 9:24 through the first half of 9:26 as being the 70 weeks,
I see the last half of verse 9:26 through 9:27 as the one week of the First Jewish Roman War, the consequences of crucifying Christ.

It fits history well.

Keith
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:33 am

Jay,

I have seen various ways people calculate the 70 weeks from starting to finish.
When all is said and done, it is about when you start counting and when you finish.
I see the key as Christ could not have been cut off before the end of the first 69 weeks.
As Christ must have been cut off to fulfill various meanings in verse 24,
He must have been cut off during the 70 weeks, therefore, during the 70th week.
So I don't see how you can provide a legitimate count that he died outside the 70 weeks.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:44 am

keithareilly wrote:Actually, No, I don't; I think it makes less sense to include the one week in Daniel 9:27 into the 70.


Have you ever found Any other place in scripture where the number "71" is used to fulfill anything by God's Command? Is there another place where some numerical type and shadow to Support this one place you're seeing that number Fulfilled?

If that can not be shown, does that not stand alone as Some Kind of oddity by itself, being without any other support?
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:50 am

Shorttribber,

Have you ever found Any other place in scripture where the number "71" is used to fulfill anything by God's Command?


Think of it this way,

Seventy 7's For prophecy "A"
One 7 For prophecy "B"

Two different prophecies about two different periods of time with a 40 year gap between the prophecies;
No Gap within either of the time periods of the individual prophecies themselves.
Both prophecies are 7's oriented.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:22 am

keithareilly wrote:Shorttribber,

Have you ever found Any other place in scripture where the number "71" is used to fulfill anything by God's Command?


Think of it this way,

Seventy 7's For prophecy "A"
One 7 For prophecy "B"

Two different prophecies about two different periods of time with a 40 year gap between the prophecies;
No Gap within either of the time periods of the individual prophecies themselves.
Both prophecies are 7's oriented.

Keith

I understand what you're suggesting. But that Idea appears to conflict with verse 24.
That there are 70 weeks Determined, for "The People" AND Jerusalem. Would not Another 7 Add Time To that Predetermined as Plainly Given?
The Other 7 your are suggesting Would be regarding Daniels People, And Jerusalem.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:50 am

Shorttribber,

That there are 70 weeks Determined, for "The People" AND Jerusalem.


Yes, 70 weeks for Daniel's people and Jerusalem.
But 70 weeks to accomplish specific things; not 70 weeks until they are destroyed.

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy weeks[c] are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

The specific things to be accomplished:
1) Finish Transgress
2) Put and End to sin,
3) Atone for Iniquity,
4) bring in everlasting righteousness,
5) seal both vision and prophecy,
6) anoint the most holy (place)

None of the things in verse 26b and 27 are needed to accomplish these 6 objectives.
The 70 weeks prophecy is only about Daniel's people's involvement where these 6 objectives are concerned.

We have another prophecy of one week about what will happen concerning the destruction of Israel.
Daniel 9:26b-27
And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

This prophecy is not about "accomplishing" the six objectives,
It is about the what happens after they accomplished the 6 objectives.

This prophecy is also what Gabriel showed Daniel's about what will happen to his people and Jerusalem but it talks about a later period of time.


Keith
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:59 am

Shorttribber,

As I don't have an end time viewpoint, I don't try to fit things into a viewpoint.
This is why I asked the question about how things for you have changed.
I am trying to understand what ideas and viewpoints are based upon the idea the the one week in verse 27 is part of the 70.

As I don't think so, I am at a loss to understand much of what is said.
For example, the 7 year tribulation thread where does the idea of seven years come from? Is it from Daniel or somewhere else?

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:12 pm

keithareilly wrote:I am trying to understand what ideas and viewpoints are based upon the idea the the one week in verse 27 is part of the 70.As I don't think so, I am at a loss to understand much of what is said.For example, the 7 year tribulation thread where does the idea of seven years come from? Is it from Daniel or somewhere else?


The 7 year trib idea comes directly from Daniel 9, yes.

And primarily from verses 26 and 27
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:26 pm

keithareilly wrote:None of the things in verse 26b and 27 are needed to accomplish these 6 objectives.

I think number 5,"seal both vision and prophecy", would be one needed to occur during the time of the End...as Daniel in another place is also told to Seal Up the vision Until the time of the End...or it is Appointed for the time of the End.

And others listed could arguably be Appointed for the End also.

I do think the other scriptures I've provided do show that Christ's Death and Cessation of sacrifices are to be understood together though.

have you given much thought to the Chiastic structure of this passage, and how it does truly Effect the reading?

here is a link to help you understand what I'm referring to, if you're not already aware of it.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=56734d
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Mark F on Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:21 pm

When I weigh the implicit mention of the Messiah being cutoff and that being necessary to be accomplished during the 70 weeks against simply the explicit label of a one week prophecy in verse 27, I conclude there is more reason to label the period the Messiah was cutoff as the 70th week.


So how do you explain the passage "And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined." being thirty-five plus years after the 69th week. You assert that Messiah being cut off has to be within the seventieth week, what about the rest of the passage?

Then the passage describes the confirming of the covenant for one week, and here you say it goes back to before verse 26 to make this individual be Jesus, if it is as you say, the three and a half years are Jesus ministry so it has to go back to prior to him being cut off. This doesn't follow what it says.

So the passage states Messiah is cut off, then 35 years later the city and sanctuary are destroyed, and then he confirms a covenant for a week, which he breaks half way through, that which has and abomination that makes desolate related to it (which by the way is 40 years prior but the passage does not state that)

If you assert that the seventieth week follows exactly after the sixty-ninth, when does the seventieth begin, at Jesus baptism? How then can the destruction of the city be within this prophecy if it all needs to be 490 consecutive years?
Mark

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:37 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:ST,

That really depends on whether or not the first coma in this verse existed in the first place? If it, the coma, was added then the understanding of the verse was deliberately changed by later scribes to reflect the meaning that they desired and not what was originally found in the verse. I would also suggest that the next "and" in the English wording of the verse is also a miss understanding of the translators and that the "and" should have been translated as '"and then" to put an end to sin.' which means that the 490 years had finished and the rest of the prophecy will follow the after the 490 years has been completed in time.


There is no doubt that punctuation can change the meaning of any text. That's why I think that for Any scripture to be correctly Understood that each text Depend On other Supporting Texts.
Those Kinds of Supporting (or Parallel) Texts have been provided earlier in this thread, and many other threads where we have discussed Daniel 9:24-27.


You are right, ST, there should be supporting texts or witnesses, but it is a known fact that people have found supporting witnesses with the scriptures to support their believe systems which are contrary to what the thrust of the Bible teaching seems to point towards.

The witness to Daniel 9:24a, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to finish the transgression," was confirmed by Christ when he answered the question of "How many time should we forgive our brother who transgresses against us? 7 times?" when he answered, "No, 70 time 7."
Matthew 18:21-22: - 21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
NKJV


The rest of Chapter Matthew 18 then goes on to talk about how we, Christ's disciples must also forgive our brothers for transgressions against us if we what to be forgiven of our transgressions against God. The iniquity that Israel continually threw into the face of their Lord, God, was the sin of idolatrous worship towards other "gods."

During the next 490 "solar" years, God accepted the yearly Sin Sacrifice and forgave the Nation of Israel, their sin of idolatrous behavior. However, when the 490 years had passed from the time that God had told Daniel, the Daniel 9:24-27 prophetic prophecies, the end of the second age of the very existence of Israel from the time of the birth of Isaac had come to an end and the iniquity of their idolatrous behavior was to be visited upon the whole nation of Israel and God caused all of Israel to be scattered to the for directions of the compass.

There are a number of Old Testament scriptures that also speak of Israel not repenting of the their fathers and also of their own sin of idolatrous behavior right up and until the full decreed time of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers has been visited upon their children and their children's children which just happens to co-inside with the fullness of time of the gentile heathens trampling the Sanctuary in Jerusalem, which Paul declared in Romans 11:25-32 would mark the time when the salvation/redemption of all of Israel would happen.

The balance of Daniel 9:24 then occurs during the early portion of the third age of the existence of the nation of Israel.

Daniel 9:25 declares the time when the Anointed Prince, Christ, the Messiah would come. Again this prophetic verse is wrongly framed by many people.

Daniel 9:25a: - "Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
. . .
NKJV


What we have here are two discrete time intervals, the first of which is that there shall be seven weeks of years until a degree is given to restore and build Jerusalem and then a second time interval of sixty-two weeks from when the degree is given to restore and build Jerusalem until the Messiah, the Prince shall come. Then we are told that Jerusalem shall be restored during troubled times.
Daniel 9:25a: -
. . . .
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
NKJV


We know that the restoration of Jerusalem by Herod was not completed until after Christ came as a baby Prince.

Then Daniel 9:26a tells us that after the Messiah, Prince comes, i.e. after the sixty-two weeks of years, He will be cut off, . . .
Daniel 9:26a: - "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
NKJV
Please note that there is no specific time interval given as too how long after the end of the sixty-two weeks that the messiah is cut off/sacrificed on the cross for the sins of all of the people of the whole earth.

Now since the scholars argue the year that Christ Came as a baby prince which also impacts the actual year that he was crucified on the Cross, there is no fixed time period of say "40 years" between the death of Christ on the Cross and the final destruction of the temple for the commonly accepted 70 AD destruction of the Temple. The actual year in which the Temple was destroyed is better known than the actual year in which the Baby Prince, the Messiah was born/came.

The next piece of the timeline puzzle is found in Daniel 9:26b: -

Daniel 9:26: - And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war, desolations are determined.
NKJV


The time span for this portion of Daniel 9:26b is not given here but the war that is raging is described in Revelation 12: -
Revelation 12:7-12: - 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,"Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
NKJV


We are also told the following: -
Revelation 20:1-3: - 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
NKJV
and
Isaiah 24:21-22: - 21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
NKJV
and
Daniel 7:9-12: - 9 "I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
NKJV


This is then followed by the giving of dominion to the Son of Man in the next portion of this scripture: -
Daniel 7:13-14: - 13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
NKJV
and is also spoken about in Revelation 19
Revelation 19:1-10: - 19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." 3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying,"Amen! Alleluia!" 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying,"Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"

6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, "Write:'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!'" And he said to me,"These are the true sayings of God." 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me,"See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
NKJV
And when Christ is given this dominion and the Messianic Kingdom is established, he is able to exercise His Dominion and rule. In Daniel 2 we are told when this Kingdom will be established: -
Daniel 2:44-45: - 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this.
NKJV


The reference to the Prince in Daniel 9:26b is a reference to Satan who has influence over the peoples of the earth and it is these people who come to destroy Jerusalem and scatter the people. The people who come are associated with the Greek Heathen Gentiles as the prophet Joel tells us in His Book.

But I have had so many interruptions today that it is best that I stop at this point in my post and consider picking it up at a later time if it is possible.

Shalom

PS: - Daniel 9:27 is about Satan making a league/solemn covenant with many and how that then plays out. It is not in any way associated with Christ entering into a new covenant with Mankind.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:01 pm

Jay Ross wrote:PS: - Daniel 9:27 is about Satan making a league/solemn covenant with many and how that then plays out. It is not in any way associated with Christ entering into a new covenant with Mankind.

I understand that is what you believe...we just disagree
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:55 pm

Shorttribber

As Mark F posted, your timeline understanding of events associated with End Time prophecy does not seem to sit well with him when he asks the following question.
Mark F wrote:If you assert that the seventieth week follows exactly after the sixty-ninth, when does the seventieth begin, at Jesus baptism? How then can the destruction of the city be within this prophecy if it all needs to be 490 consecutive years?
I know that my expressed views have no such problem at all as I consider that all the independent prophecies within the four verses of Daniel 9:24-27 have no associativity which forces a rigid timeline of understanding as to when each segment of the respective prophecies will occur.

We really need to look at this passage from a Hebraic perspective and not from the "Puritan" source perspective that we are force feed by many in shepherding roles today because of a lack of understanding.

Shalom
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:32 pm

Shorttribber,

have you given much thought to the Chiastic structure of this passage, and how it does truly Effect the reading?


Honestly, I had to look up Chaistic structure.
I tried assembling the verses into the examples I saw in a word document; but, I could not.
Just lack of experience with this sort of thing.

The best I could do was:
- One week (70th)
-- Christ Crucified
--- Temple [body] destroyed
---- Sacrifice to end Sacrifices,
----- New covenant established,
----- Old covenant terminated.
---- Temple Sacrifices Stopped
--- Herod Temple destroyed,
-- Jerusalem Destroyed
- One week (Dan 9:27)


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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:08 am

Reply to Mark F

Daniel 9:24-26a The 490 (70 weeks) years of Prophecy
24 “Seventy weeks[c] are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.[d] 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again[e] with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.

Daniel 9:26b-27 The first Jewish War Prophecy (one week - not part of the 70 weeks)
And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Historical facts:
The people who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple were Romans.
Their commander was Prince Titus, son of then emperor Vespasian.
History reveals who the prince in verse 26 is: Titus.
The first Jewish Roman war lasted 7 years, one week.
Halfway through the war, the city and the sanctuary were destroyed.
Josephus indicates Titus had no intention of destroying the temple.
King Herod Agrippa II, who superintended the temple, sided with Vespasian, supporting him with troops.
After Jerusalem was captured, halfway through the 7 years, Agrippa and Titus went to Rome, ending the alliance (of many) and leaving only one of the four the Roman Legions, X Frentensis, to mop up the remaining pockets of Jewish rebellion.

I see to much historical evidence supporting verses Daniel 9:26b - 27 as the First Jewish Roman War.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Mark F on Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:43 am

keithareilly wrote:Reply to Mark F

Daniel 9:24-26a The 490 (70 weeks) years of Prophecy
24 “Seventy weeks[c] are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.[d] 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again[e] with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.

Daniel 9:26b-27 The first Jewish War Prophecy (one week - not part of the 70 weeks)
And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Historical facts:
The people who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple were Romans.
Their commander was Prince Titus, son of then emperor Vespasian.
History reveals who the prince in verse 26 is: Titus.
The first Jewish Roman war lasted 7 years, one week.
Halfway through the war, the city and the sanctuary were destroyed.
Josephus indicates Titus had no intention of destroying the temple.
King Herod Agrippa II, who superintended the temple, sided with Vespasian, supporting him with troops.
After Jerusalem was captured, halfway through the 7 years, Agrippa and Titus went to Rome, ending the alliance (of many) and leaving only one of the four the Roman Legions, X Frentensis, to mop up the remaining pockets of Jewish rebellion.

I see to much historical evidence supporting verses Daniel 9:26b - 27 as the First Jewish Roman War.

Keith

So what bearing does it have on the seventy weeks as you have previously asserted that by necessity the seventieth week immediately followed the sixty-ninth?
I believe the time period underlined above takes place during the 70th week. As it takes place after the 7 and 62 it cannot therefore be during the first 69 weeks. I also believe that the cutting off of the Messiah was necessary to accomplish the 70 weeks prophecy. This places the period of time when the Messiah was cut off outside the 69 weeks but necessarily within the 70 weeks . The only week left is the 70th week. Therefore, I conclude that the 70th week is mentioned implicitly not explicitly as the period when Christ was crucified.

You cannot have this seven year Jewish war with the destruction of the Temple at the 3.5 year point and also have the ministry of Jesus in the seventieth week with His crucifixion at the 3.5 year point of the seventieth week as well, it doesn't make any sense.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Exit40 on Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:45 am

Let's start at the beginning ...

Dan 9:11
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression ...


Is the transgression finished ? If not when will it be ? What happens at the finish of the transgression ?

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:55 am

Jay Ross wrote:As Mark F posted, your timeline understanding of events associated with End Time prophecy does not seem to sit well with him when he asks the following question.

I think Mark F was addressing Keith, regarding his understanding of timelines Jay. The position I hold does not require a Continuous 70th week.... but a 70th that is Divided.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:09 am

Reply to Mark F

The one week in Daniel 9:27 is not the 70th week;
The 70th week is the one in which Christ was Crucified.

As stated in verse 9:26
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.
Not during the first 69 weeks but after the 69 weeks, during the 70th week.

I do not place Christ's crucifixion during the week mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

Scripture does not say at what point during the 70th week Messiah was cut off.
So, I don't care if it was in the beginning of the week, at the end of the week, or halfway between.

Mark 12:1-9
12 And he began to speak to them in parables. “A man planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a pit for the winepress and built a tower, and leased it to tenants and went into another country. 2 When the season came, he sent a servant[a] to the tenants to get from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent to them another servant, and they struck him on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 And he sent another, and him they killed. And so with many others: some they beat, and some they killed. 6 He had still one other, a beloved son. Finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 And they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others.

Daniel 9:24-27
Contains two prophecies occurring at two different times but related, one prophesy about the killing of the son and one prophecy about the owner of the vineyard coming to destroy the tenants.

When Jesus told this parable, it was not a new prophecy.


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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:00 am

Hi Keith,
The original reason for asking you about Chiasm and how it's form influences or understanding was to show that what may be considered a "Natural Reading", should take into account, Chiastic Structure.

As you've pointed out...Chiastic structure not only can be, but Is Very Subjective.

There is a part of Chiasm that Helps us Lesson Subjectivity though.
And that is, the Rhythm of Repetition. Hebraic Repetition is throughout the Prophets, Psalms, etc., even Paul used forms of it when writing in Greek!

What I'm trying to point out is this....The Main Subject is Always the Center of Expression in Chiasm/Hebrew Prophecy, Poetic Prophetic Psalms etc.

Now, Whatever the Main Subject Is (In the case of Daniel 9...Christ and His Work...) Is Repetitiously Referred to.
The Desolations mentioned, you already know, are the result of Rebellious/Faithless Rejection OF His Work.

It is not likely that I would be able to persuade you differently from what you now believe, but I do want you to see the Possibility in what i'm saying.
I can see the possibility in your opinion to a degree.....it's just that the amount of scriptures that support my opinion are just overwhelmingly in my favor I think.

One of the reasons for the historic agreement that you're seeing, and it is truly undeniable (That Historic fulfillment) is a Layer, a Form of fulfilled Prophecy.
But, That Historic fulfillment is Subservient to the Primary Fulfillment. What will be soon Known, Soon Revealed, is that the Primary Fulfillment of Daniel 9 HAS and WILL find it's Crescendo/Peak/Height in Christ

HE is the One who Confirmed the Promises made to the fathers. It is He who Caused/Causes that Covenant made by Promise to "Prevail".

If I'm wrong we will see soon, AND Soon we will see if I'm right.

Either way, I'm glad you can clearly agree that Christ's sacrifice Did, By Necessity, occur During the 70th week.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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