Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:19 pm

Daniel 9:26

(ASV) And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

(BBE) And at the end of the times, even after the sixty-two weeks, one on whom the holy oil has been put will be cut off and have no (UNTRANSLATED TEXT) ;and the town and the holy place will be made waste together with a prince; and the end will come with an overflowing of waters, and even to the end there will be war; the making waste which has been fixed.

(CEV) At the end of the sixty-two weeks, the Chosen Leader will be killed and left with nothing. A foreign ruler and his army will sweep down like a mighty flood, leaving both the city and the temple in ruins, and war and destruction will continue until the end, just as God has decided.

(ESV) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

(GNB) And at the end of that time God's chosen leader will be killed unjustly. The city and the Temple will be destroyed by the invading army of a powerful ruler. The end will come like a flood, bringing the war and destruction which God has prepared.

(GW) But after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing. The city and the holy place will be destroyed with the prince who is to come. His end will come with a flood until the end of the destructive war that has been determined.

(ISV) Then after the 62 weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and will have no successor. Then the people of the coming commander will destroy both the city and the Sanctuary. Its ending will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war, with desolations having been decreed.

(JPS) And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(KJV+) And afterH310 threescoreH8346 and twoH8147 weeksH7620 shall MessiahH4899 be cut off,H3772 but notH369 for himself: and the peopleH5971 of the princeH5057 that shall comeH935 shall destroyH7843 the cityH5892 and the sanctuary;H6944 and the endH7093 thereof shall be with a flood,H7858 and untoH5704 the endH7093 of the warH4421 desolationsH8074 are determined.H2782

(LITV) And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.

(MKJV) And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.

(NLT) After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.

(RV) And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and his end shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

(YLT) And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.
Last edited by Ready1 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:21 pm

Daniel 9:27

(ASV) And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

(BBE) And a strong order will be sent out against the great number for one week; and so for half of the week the offering and the meal offering will come to an end; and in its place will be an unclean thing causing fear; till the destruction which has been fixed is let loose on him who has made waste.

(CEV) For one week this foreigner will make a firm agreement with many people, and halfway through this week, he will end all sacrifices and offerings. Then the "Horrible Thing" that causes destruction will be put there. And it will stay there until the time God has decided to destroy this one who destroys.

(ESV) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

(GNB) That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him."

(GW) He will confirm his promise with many for one set of seven time periods. In the middle of the seven time periods, he will stop the sacrifices and food offerings. This will happen along with disgusting things that cause destruction until those time periods come to an end. It has been determined that this will happen to those who destroy the city."

(ISV) He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will pause both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.'"

(JPS) And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'

(KJV) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(KJV+) And he shall confirmH1396 the covenantH1285 with manyH7227 for oneH259 week:H7620 and in the midstH2677 of the weekH7620 he shall cause the sacrificeH2077 and the oblationH4503 to cease,H7673 and forH5921 the overspreadingH3671 of abominationsH8251 he shall make it desolate,H8074 even untilH5704 the consummation,H3617 and that determinedH2782 shall be pouredH5413 uponH5921 the desolate.H8076

(LITV) And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

(MKJV) And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.

(NLT) The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.

(RV) And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and for the half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the consummation, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolator.

(YLT) And he hath strengthened a covenant with many--one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'


Last edited by Ready1 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:22 pm

Somehow it just doesn't sound like it's saying what you're saying it's saying. :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:20 pm

Ready1 wrote:Somehow it just doesn't sound like it's saying what you're saying it's saying. :grin:


You are correct. It is not a very good guess.
As I said, It is just a guess.

Could you be more specific about what you think is wrong?

KJV
Daniel 9:26b-27
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Verse 26 talks about a war. Unto to the end of the war desolations are determined; these happen during the war. Also per verse 27, during the one week war, sacrifice and oblation cease. Because of abominations (not necessarily during the war - i.e. Christ crucified ) the prince will make it desolate (during the war).

The following may indicate a longer period of time than the one week. (My best guess)
Even until the consummation: does the word "even" extend the desolations for longer than the one week?
And that determined shall be poured on the desolate - It is already desolate, what is determined to be poured on a place desolated during the one week war and during what time period will this happen?

Let us assume the clauses do not extend the prophecy beyond the one week. (My second best guess)
These two clause may simply mean Titus did not intend to destroy the temple, but its "consummate" destruction was decreed. Even after it was desolated (burned), it was decreed to be further destroyed by the soldiers who left no stone upon the other to extract the gold melted between the stones during the fire.

I can only speculate what these clauses mean.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:25 am

Lets look at a composite of Dan 9:26 from the list of different Bibles.


When:

And at the end of the times, after the threescore and two weeks (sixty two weeks) or after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods,
.

Who: Jesus

shall Messiah, God's Chosen Leader, the Anointed One


What:

be cut off, killed (unjustly), and shall have nothing, and be left with nothing, and have no successor, and shall be no more, appearing to have accomplished nothing i.e. not for himself.


Then:

and the people of the prince that shall come, the people of the ruler who shall come, the prince who is to come, a foreign ruler and his army, the invading army of a powerful ruler, a ruler will arise whose armies


What do they do?

will sweep down like a mighty flood, leaving both the city and the temple in ruins, the city and the Temple (the sanctuary or the holy place) will be destroyed, . And the end of it shall be with the flood,


Final Result:

War and destruction will continue until the end, just as God has decided. And even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined or the making waste which has been fixed, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.


And since it is late I'll try to catch the other one tomorrow.
Just observing.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:06 am

Ready1,

I see in the verses what I believe.

Your posts are such that you expect me to see what you believe. I don't. I need you to explain what you believe to me because my eyes and mind see what they have always seen. They do not see what you see. If they did, I would believe as you. See if you can pick out the points where what I see and what you see vary and try to paint a picture for me in words about what you are seeing.

Thanks,

Keith
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:22 am

Hi Keith,

The reason that I posted the lengthy Dan 9:26 and 9:27 comparative passages, is that if we look at each Bible version, we get a little different "flavor" of what the translators understood. What I have done is simply add as many of the thoughts and modifiers from each version into a single verse in an attempt to make a "composite" verse which can possibly give us a better understanding of the meaning of the passage. So here is my composite verse of

Daniel 9:26

And at the end of the times, after the threescore and two weeks (sixty two weeks) or after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, shall Messiah, God's Chosen Leader, the Anointed One be cut off, killed (unjustly), and shall have nothing, and be left with nothing, and have no successor, and shall be no more, appearing to have accomplished nothing i.e. not for himself. And the people of the prince that shall come, the people of the ruler who shall come, the prince who is to come, a foreign ruler and his army, the invading army of a powerful ruler, a ruler will arise whose armies will sweep down like a mighty flood, leaving both the city and the temple in ruins, the city and the Temple (the sanctuary or the holy place) will be destroyed, and the end of it shall be with the flood, war and destruction will continue until the end, just as God has decided. And even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined or the making waste which has been fixed, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.


And my composite verse for Daniel 9:27 is as follows

Daniel 9:27

And he, this foreign ruler, will confirm his promise or make a firm binding covenant, a strong order, a firm agreement, a treaty with many people, a great number, for one week, for one set of seven time periods, i.e. seven years, and halfway through this week or time period, in the midst or middle of the week, when half of this time period is over, he shall cause the sacrifice and offering, (oblation, meal, food, grain offerings or presents to God) to cease or come to an end. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object on a corner of the altar, the highest point of the Temple, an unclean thing, the Awful Horror or Horrible Thing, a disgusting thing, with destructive people, the wing of abominations or detestable things, the overspreading of abominations, that causes desecration, that makes desolate or causes destruction and causes fear and appalment. This will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end (consummation, wrath, destruction, extermination) which God has prepared for him, (the desolator, and those who destroy the city.) or until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.


None of these words are my own...just look back at the comparative passage and you will find each clause or phrase in the words of one version or another. The following versions were used: (ASV)(BBE) (CEV) (ESV) (GNB) (GW) (ISV) (JPS) (KJV) (LITV) (MKJV) (NLT) (RV) (YLT)

All I see in these verses is what is written. If you feel I have not treated the composite verse fairly, then put your own together, but don't leave out anything. I tried to get it all in there.

The only words I placed last time were the words:

Who:
What:
Then:
What do they do:
Final Result:

Show me how you would place these words if my locations (or even words) did not suit you.
Just observing.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:59 am

Ready1,

We take a different approach.
Whereas you have consolidated the various versions together, I pare them down to what they have in common.

I have the view I have because I think prophecy must be verified against history.
I examine history for that pared down core of common interpretation.
The rest I consider variance of opinion; a maybe not a certainty.
Once I locate the event described by the core, then I compare it to the prophecy to see what is opinion and what is core.

The temple was destroyed in 70AD.
It was destroyed by Prince Titus, son of then Emperor Vespasian.
It was destroyed in the middle of a 7 year period.
There was an Alliance made between Vespasian and other local rulers and peoples, Titus retained this alliance.
Jerusalem was conquered, the alliance was dissolved, One of four military units remained.

The translations vary in what they expect and they vary according to interpretation.
However, most translations contain a core of commonly held belief.
This core describes the destruction of 70AD quite well;
It is because the core of interpretation supports it that I accept it to be fulfillment of the prophecy.



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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:08 pm

keithareilly wrote:Whereas you have consolidated the various versions together, I pare them down to what they have in common.


What they have in common is the fact that each set of translator/interpreters have done their best to convey the meaning of Daniel 9:26 and 27, to the best of their ability with the resources at hand. For that reason, a composite version will give a pretty fair indication of the verses meaning. So your approach, which uses the "lowest common denominator" approach, will be subject to your own interpretation. And our own interpretation is subject to lots of conjecture.

I have the view I have because I think prophecy must be verified against history.
I examine history for that pared down core of common interpretation.
The rest I consider variance of opinion; a maybe not a certainty.
Once I locate the event described by the core, then I compare it to the prophecy to see what is opinion and what is core.


That certainly works great for fulfilled prophecy, but is baseless for unfulfilled prophecy or "near-term/far-term" fulfillment.

The temple was destroyed in 70AD.
It was destroyed by Prince Titus, son of then Emperor Vespasian.
It was destroyed in the middle of a 7 year period.
There was an Alliance made between Vespasian and other local rulers and peoples, Titus retained this alliance.
Jerusalem was conquered, the alliance was dissolved, One of four military units remained.

The translations vary in what they expect and they vary according to interpretation.
However, most translations contain a core of commonly held belief.
This core describes the destruction of 70AD quite well;
It is because the core of interpretation supports it that I accept it to be fulfillment of the prophecy.


But, but, but, but... you didn't even consider a scripture just two verses up which also describes the same 70 year period. You have to include it, because vs 26 & 27 are simply an explanation and an extension of it. And vs 24 still has some "fulfilling" to be done. Surely you won't tell me that verse 24 is also fulfilled...especially since verse 24 states that six specific things will be fulfilled when the last set of seven is complete.

(NLT) 24 A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler-the Anointed One-comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.

26 After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.

27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put and end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.
Just observing.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:29 pm

Ready1,

Yes, I think the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24 are completed, consecutively.
I think Christ was crucified during the 70th week, the week following immediately on the heals of the 69th week.
I do not divide the 70th week; it ran its course.
And Yes, all this affects the meaning of the six things accomplished listed in verse 24.

I do not think the one week of Daniel 9:27 is part of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24,
I think the one week of Daniel 9:27 was completed and 70AD was the middle of that 7 consecutive year period.



What they have in common is the fact that each set of translator/interpreters have done their best to convey the meaning of Daniel 9:26 and 27, to the best of their ability with the resources at hand.

Exactly! This is why I only use the common core among the translations.

For that reason, a composite version will give a pretty fair indication of the verses meaning.

Not True. With a composite approach, one must pick which translations work together to form a sensible composite.
By doing so, one must choose which to keep which to throw out. The common core approach provides a more universally agreed upon prophecy.

So your approach, which uses the "lowest common denominator" approach, will be subject to your own interpretation. And our own interpretation is subject to lots of conjecture.

This is true of all approaches. Can't be avoided. By using the common core approach I minimize this to what most agree is true.

That certainly works great for fulfilled prophecy, but is baseless for unfulfilled prophecy or "near-term/far-term" fulfillment.

True, but, since my goal is to verify prophecy with history, this is most useful.
The alternative is to have a consolidated prophecy which can't be found in history because the opinions of the translators were wrong and therefore won't completely match the historical event; when we miss the historical event for this reason, we will look for a future event that will never come to pass. I wish to avoid that type of mistake so I must use the most commonly accepted core.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:11 am

I do not think the one week of Daniel 9:27 is part of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24, :shock:
I think the one week of Daniel 9:27 was completed and 70AD was the middle of that 7 consecutive year period. :shock:


Context means nothing! I leave you to your interpretation. :grin: :grin: :grin:

But I will ask you when "to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place" all took place. Surely you must have a way to negate the normal, ordinary, customary meaning of these words as well as their context as a single explanation (Dan 9:21-27) from Gabriel. :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:16 am

Ready1,

There are two candidates for the 70th week in the Daniel 9:24-27 Prophecy.

Candidate 1:
The first candidate is the one week period following the 69th week consecutively.
We have a verse indicating Christ was crucified during this week ( after the 7 and 62, not after the 70th).
Christs crucifixion was also necessary to accomplish the 70 weeks prophecy.

Candidate 2:
The second candidate is the verse in 9:27.
Scripture does not say when this prophecy is to be fulfilled.
This verse talks about a seven years war in which the temple is destroyed part way though.

Many try to pick both time periods as the 70th week.
That would be fine if we had a 7 year war in which the temple was destroyed during the 7 years Christ was crucified.
But we know that did not happen.

Since history demonstrates the two periods are not one in the same 7 year period of time,
we have to choose which one is the 70th week.
Because the two time periods are not the same 7 years time period, we must also recognize, while Daniel 9:24 talks about 70 years, Daniel 9:24-27 talks about 71 years.

So, where in Daniel 9 does it state that the one week of Daniel 9:27 is the 70th week of Daniel 9:24?
It cannot be shown, thus we must accept labeling the one week of Daniel 9:27 as the 70th week is a conclusion.
Because it is a conclusion, it may be a wrong conclusion.
So what supporting evidence is there that the one week of Daniel 9:27 should be considered as a candidate for the 70th week of Daniel 9:24 ?
Does the evidence for its candidacy outweigh the evidence for the candidacy of the one week period immediately following the 69th week, that one week during which Christ was crucified?



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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:22 am

Ready1,

Sorry, I realized had not answered your question.

1) to finish the transgression - Kill the son of the owner of the Vineyard
2) to make an end of sins - Free of the Law and its enslavement to sin, enabling good works in each
3) to make reconciliation for iniquity - Christ paid the wages of our Sin, death, so we can be reconciled to God
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness - Christ is our everlasting righteousness
5) to seal up the vision and prophecy - Not sure. Sealed as in completed letter is sealed? Sealed as in to be opened later?
6) to anoint the most Holy - Crucify Christ, spilling his blood as sacrifice, establishing a new most holy through whom we access the Father



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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:05 pm

Ready1,

About Sealing up Prophecy...

I poked around a bit about Jewish Prophets. It seems traditionally the last recognized prophet by the Jews is Malachi.
As they do not recognize John the Baptist or Christ or Christian prophets such as John, then I would say sealing up vision and prophecy for Daniel's people means no more prophets for the Jews as a people.

I also think the parable of the Tenants implies that once the Son is sent (instead of more servants) and is killed which then results in the destruction of the people in charge of the vineyard and the handing of the vineyard over to others, this supports the idea that there will be no more prophets for the nation of the Jews. Why send them, the Jews are not in charge of the vineyard anymore.

Because John's Revelation came after Christ (after the son of the vineyard was finally sent and killed) following the many servants (prophets) who were first sent, I must also conclude that while prophets are no longer sent to the Jews, they are sent to Christians and therefore the reference to Daniel 9:24 concerning your people and your holy city is limited to the Jews and does not include Christians as Daniel's people.


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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:05 am

Ready1,

Context means nothing! I leave you to your interpretation. :grin: :grin: :grin:


Much of what I posted is based upon context.

Why do you think I am taking things out of context?

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:40 pm

:bump:
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:44 pm

Sorry, I forgot we had this one going. In late Feb and early Mar my wife & I had the opportunity to tour Israel with a small group for 16 days. That was special but I forgot about this thread. Will take a look at it again. Thanks for the :bump: :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:02 pm

After looking over the debate thread again, and looking at the ducking and weaving which goes on with all to support their own theory, I am of the opinion that you and I will be unable to come to agreement as well.

First of all, since we have not talked about "when" the 7 weeks and 62 weeks started, we cannot come to a conclusion as to when they finished. Mr. Baldy says that the 70th week started when Jesus stated "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” Exit40 and Shorttribber (I think) believe that it began at His baptism. Many of us do not think that it has started yet.

Once again, I will just state what I believe, and love you anyway! :grin:

Here is what I see as context.

1. In Daniel 9, Daniel was studying in the book of Jeremiah, looking at the seventy years prophecy. vs 1 & 2
2. Since he doesn't understand it, he prostrates himself before God, praying in "sackcloth & ashes", fasting and pleading with God for understanding. vs 3
3. Daniel praises God for his mercy, his power and greatness and his love. But at the same time he enumerates the sins of Israel. He confesses them, he requests God to no longer be angry with them, and he asks that God would forgive them. vs 4-16
4. Daniel requests that God would restore the Jerusalem and the Temple (HIS Holy Hill), for His own sake, and as a testimony of God himself. vs 17-19
5. Verse 20 recaps everything up to this point in Chapter 9. "(GNB) I went on praying, confessing my sins and the sins of my people Israel and pleading with the LORD my God to restore his holy Temple." or "...the Holy Mountain of my God"
6. And what does Daniel get for his request? Just an angel coming with a personal message from God, that's all. You wouldn't expect anything else would you? Gabriel does these little details on a regular basis, right? vs 21-27

What does Gabriel say? Gabriel gives Daniel more information than he asked for but Gabriel tells us what he is going to talk about from the start. Here it is:

Dan 9:21 As I was praying, Gabriel, whom I had seen in the earlier vision, came swiftly to me at the time of the evening sacrifice.
Dan 9:22 He explained to me, "Daniel, I have come here to give you insight and understanding.
Dan 9:23 The moment you began praying, a command was given. And now I am here to tell you what it was, for you are very precious to God. Listen carefully so that you can understand the meaning of your vision.


Up to this point, in this Chapter, I would like to ask you this: Where has a vision been mentioned before v 23? No vision has been mentioned. For Gabriel's statement to make any sense, it has to tie back to the vision/visions of Daniel 8 where Daniel has seen Gabriel before. What Gabriel is about to tell Daniel is an explanation of Daniel's prior vision. An elucidation. Greater insight. So at this point, it is my opinion that context points backward to include portions of the prior chapter which Daniel does not understand. And Gabriel is talking about the time of the end rather than the end of seventy years of captivity that Daniel has been praying, confessing and asking about. Take a look at the final verse of Chapter 8. Daniel says, "And I was amazed at the vision, but there was no understanding." That's what Gabriel is here for this time, "...so you can understand the meaning of your vision."

But I digress. What does Gabriel say that he is going to talk about? That is found in verse 24

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.


What does Gabriel say? He says that he is going to tell Daniel about the time allotted to Israel & Jerusalem. He is setting a time frame. He calls it seventy weeks. That is what the whole passage is going to be about, because not only is he tying it to Israel, he is also tying it to the end of time by tying it to the vision in Chapter 8. And multiple things will occur before this time period is complete...six things to be exact.

Gabriel then further elaborates on the seventy weeks.

Dan 9:25 Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.


The Anointed One, a prince, Messiah, the anointed commander, Gods chosen leader will return to a rebuilt Jerusalem by the end of 69 sets of seven, i.e. 69 weeks. Still talking about the 70 weeks with the elaboration about when Messiah the Prince fits into the time frame. The next verse tells us more about this period.

Dan 9:26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

(LITV) And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.


Death comes to the Anointed One, Messiah the Prince. When does it come? After the threescore and two weeks. And he shall be killed unjustly without successor and shall be no more. Again, when? AFTER threescore and two weeks.

So what next? Gabriel continues to give greater insight and understanding. Gabriel tells Daniel that after Messiah the Prince is cut off without a successor, and that “the people of the prince that shall come” will do certain things. He enumerates what they will do. They destroy the city, they destroy the sanctuary, and once this war starts, it will continue until the completion.

And after that? Well since Gabriel has shared the fact that there will be seventy weeks, and since he has spoken specifically about things which occur in sixty-nine of them, we might suspect that he would tell us something about the seventieth one as well. And sure enough, he does! Is this some outlier? Is this an explanation to help Daniels understanding or is this just God fooling around and messing with Daniel’s mind by introducing some extraneous week? We can’t have it both ways. God sent Gabriel to give information to Daniel that "...so you can understand the meaning of your vision."

And Gabriel is showing that the final week, yes, the seventieth week, has certain things which will occur in it. Once again, that is what he is sharing from God. His comments carry on sequentially and tell us that in the final one week several things happen. A covenant is confirmed, the sacrifice & offering cease, abomination occurs as well as desecration and a decreed end will come to the desolator. Is this some new prophecy? No. Does this all pertain to the same thing that Gabriel began telling Daniel about? Yes, of course.

Dan 9:27 Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator. LITV


In another thread you wrote:I don't see any reason to take the one week of Daniel 9:27 from the vision. I include it.
I also include the war mentioned and the desolations as well.
I just don't try to put it all in the 70 weeks.


Gabriel included it specifically in the 70 weeks. Jesus referred to it as well. So when you make a comment like you did I just can’t see that you have been contextually honest with the text. That is why I wrote:

Context means nothing! I leave you to your interpretation. :grin: :grin: :grin:


And we have not even begun to tie the Daniel 8 vision with Gabriel's explanation... :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:34 pm

Ready1 wrote:Sorry, I forgot we had this one going. In late Feb and early Mar my wife & I had the opportunity to tour Israel with a small group for 16 days. That was special but I forgot about this thread. Will take a look at it again. Thanks for the :bump: :grin:



Nice, I hope to get there one day.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:58 pm

Ready1,

After reading what you wrote, I went back and reread Daniel 8.
I agree, Daniel 9 is expounding Daniel 8.
I still see most of Daniel 8 as describing the overthrow of the the Aechmenid empire by Alexander the Great. I also see the Maccabean wars with Antiochus Epiphanes. These things also happened during the 70 sevens. So Yes, Daniel 9 is expounding on Daniel 8 and including more things that are to happen to Daniels people until the "time of the end".

However, we disagree about the meaning of "The Time of the End" . I don't read "the end of time", I read "the time of the end". The time of the end of what? The end of of Israel as God's chosen Kingdom and why they crucified Christ when He taught the Kingdom of God is at hand. That is more in line with Gabriel's answering Daniel's prayer than the end of a church period, which Daniel had no idea about.

You quoted me saying "I just don't put it all in the 70 weeks"

True. I don't. But neither do you.

As you said, Jesus was crucified after the 62 weeks which comes after the 7 weeks.
Therefore, Jesus was crucified after the the end of the 69 weeks; but, before the beginning of 70th week.
If this is true, then Jesus's crucifixion falls outside the 70 weeks, not during the first 69, not during the 70th.
If Jesus's crucifixion falls outside the 70 weeks, then "I just don't put it all in the 70 weeks" is still a true statement.

Are you saying Jesus's crucifixion did not occur during the 70 weeks?
If so, why do you have a problem with my statement that I don't put all that was prophesied during the 70 weeks?
If not, how does what you are saying make everything prophesied to occur during the 70 weeks?

If there is a gap between the 69th and the 70th week, then I think you are saying Christ was crucified in that gap.
If you are saying this, then I don't see why you disagree with my statement about not placing all the prophecies in the 70 sevens. I am a bit confused.
:humm:

Honesty Ready1,
I don't think it is fair to think I am being contextually dishonest by pointing out these truths.

Edited for corrections replacing Cyrus the Great with Alexander the great.
Keith
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Mon May 01, 2017 7:27 pm

keithareilly wrote:After reading what you wrote, I went back and reread Daniel 8.
I agree, Daniel 9 is expounding Daniel 8.

I still see most of Daniel 8 as describing the overthrow of the the Aechmenid empire by Alexander the Great.


I see the Medes and the Persians ousting all prior kingdoms and in turn being overthrown by Alexander the Great. Then I see the breakup of his empire upon his untimely death; as well as his four generals assuming and dividing up his kingdom.

Here is the text.

Dan 8:3 And I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the stream a ram which had two horns; and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; and no beasts could stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and magnified himself.
Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, a he-goat came from the west over the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.
Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had the two horns, which I saw standing before the stream, and ran at him in the fury of his power.
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and broke his two horns; and there was no power in the ram to stand before him; but he cast him down to the ground, and trampled upon him; and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
Dan 8:8 And the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly; and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and instead of it there came up the appearance of four horns toward the four winds of heaven.


And here is the explanation by Gabriel.

Dan 8:20 The ram which you saw having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the shaggy goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 And as for that being broken, and four stood up in its place; four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in its power.


I hope that we would see the same things up to this point, but you will have to clarify that.

I also see the Maccabean wars with Antiochus Epiphanes. These things also happened during the 70 sevens.


Since these things occurred prior to the coming of our Lord, I would even go so far as to say that they occurred within the 69 sevens. While some of the passage appears to be Epiphanes-like, there is nothing in this passage or its explanation and expansion which ties it directly to him.

So Yes, Daniel 9 is expounding on Daniel 8 and including more things that are to happen to Daniels people until the "time of the end".

Agreed

However, we disagree about the meaning of "The Time of the End" . I don't read "the end of time", I read "the time of the end".

To my knowledge, I have not referenced “the end of time” in any of my writings. I would agree that this period is talking about “the time of the end.”

The time of the end of what? The end of of Israel as God's chosen Kingdom and why they crucified Christ when He taught the Kingdom of God is at hand. That is more in line with Gabriel's answering Daniel's prayer than the end of a church period, which Daniel had no idea about.


Herein lies the crux of our differences. The time of the end of what? We cannot just pick any rabbit out of the hat. And no, it is not the end of Israel as God’s chosen Kingdom. God has never and will never abandon Israel as His chosen people, and they will be a part of His Kingdom. (But that is another topic, and let’s not get off track.) What does Jesus, in his Olivet discourse, say that this “time of the end” will be the end of? He says it very plainly as he talks with his disciples about this period as well.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


All of this has to do with the completion of the age of the Gentiles. And Gabriel is giving Daniel knowledge about that last period of time immediately prior to Jesus coming to set up His Kingdom upon the earth. While Christ offered himself as a king 2000 years ago and was rejected, he will be King over the whole earth for 1000 years. And Gabriel is sharing with Daniel unknown secrets about what it will be like immediately prior to that time. I love the following passage because it shares what is yet to come! Hasn't happened yet, but its coming!

Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.



You quoted me saying "I just don't put it all in the 70 weeks"

True. I don't. But neither do you.


You are correct, I have never said that Jesus was crucified in the time frame of the 70 weeks. And since you did make the following comments, I am having trouble figuring out what you really believe.

keithareilly wrote:Yes, I think the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24 are completed, consecutively.
I think Christ was crucified during the 70th week, the week following immediately on the heals of the 69th week.
I do not divide the 70th week; it ran its course.


As you said, Jesus was crucified after the 62 weeks which comes after the 7 weeks.
Therefore, Jesus was crucified after the the end of the 69 weeks; but, before the beginning of 70th week.
If this is true, then Jesus's crucifixion falls outside the 70 weeks, not during the first 69, not during the 70th.
If Jesus's crucifixion falls outside the 70 weeks, then "I just don't put it all in the 70 weeks" is still a true statement.


Again your above statement contradicts what you are saying right here. What do you believe.

Are you saying Jesus's crucifixion did not occur during the 70 weeks?
If so, why do you have a problem with my statement that I don't put all that was prophesied during the 70 weeks?
If not, how does what you are saying make everything prophesied to occur during the 70 weeks?

If there is a gap between the 69th and the 70th week, then I think you are saying Christ was crucified in that gap.
If you are saying this, then I don't see why you disagree with my statement about not placing all the prophecies in the 70 sevens. I am a bit confused.


Since I am having trouble figuring out what you are getting at here, I will just give you what I believe about these passages. Yes, I do believe that time elapses after the 69th week ends and before the 70th week begins. I believe that Jesus was crucified immediately after the close of the 69th week. Furthermore, I believe that the counts of time are precise and that the starting point for all of this is given from the command to rebuild Jerusalem. And I believe that while there are multiple calendars to deal with, that exactly 173,880 days passed between the Nehemiah command and Jesus' offer of Himself as King on the donkey on Palm Sunday.

I believe that Gabriel shares with Daniel truths about the final 2520 days, also known as the 70th week, in Daniel 8 & 9. I believe that everything which cannot be shown to have been already fulfilled in both chapters, will be fulfilled in this future 1 week. Part of what makes a restored national Israel so exciting is, because it exists, this final week can be fulfilled. I am attempting to keep it all in context with what these chapters are saying, and identifying what has occurred and what has not. I believe that Jesus himself shared additional information about this period. It will be a time like none before it or ever after it. It will be worse than anything man has ever known.

Honesty Ready1,
I don't think it is fair to think I am being contextually dishonest by pointing out these truths.


If this has offended you, I ask your forgiveness!
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Mon May 01, 2017 8:47 pm

Ready1,

You are correct the crux of our disagreement is "time of the end".
I think the time of the end is best described by Jesus in the parable of the tenants.
The tenants killed the son and the vineyard was taken from them and given to others.
I see the "time of the end" as the end of the Jews being the tenants.


Even today, back in the land of Israel, they are still no longer the tenants; they must believe in Christ before they can be again tenants in the vineyard.

I believe the 70th week is the one immediately following the 69th week and that it was completed. It is the week Christ was crucified and resurrected. I think the one week of Daniel 9:27 describes the 1st Jewish Roman War and that that one week is also over.

I can switch gears and talk about the gap theology as if I agreed and in some cases I do for communication purposes. I am sorry I was not clear that I was doing that.


I do not think that the time of the gentiles being fulfilled and the time of the end are about the same time periods. I find these kinds of belief to be "unverified assumptions". For how can one verify they are indeed the same?

Ready1, understand this, I am not saying that the assumption is wrong. I am saying that when I evaluate scriptures that are not in the same context, I try to eliminate assumptions by not assuming verses in different contexts are talking about the same thing unless there is a link provided. Christ talks about the AOD in Daniel thus providing a link. But, that AOD link does not necessarily link the time of the end with the time of the gentiles. So, My strategy is to assume they are not the same unless proven otherwise. I choose this because assumptions lead to conclusions and eliminating as many assumptions means conclusions are less dependent on the correctness of assumptions.

Because I do this, I cannot accept the statement Jesus was talking about "the time of the end" when commenting about the time of the gentiles. I do not see sufficient justification for that assumption to be treated as fact in a logical argument. If you have such, I am happy to consider it.

Thank you for your apology. I try very hard to be honest about what I believe.
I hope you understand by eliminating assumptions, I am doing my best to be contextually honest. Assumptions are just that, assumptions. Unfortunately, assumptions are not always recognized as assumptions. I make plenty of them without realizing it and people point them out to me. We disagree. But I am contextually honest, even more so as I recognize and eliminate assumptions and discuss what scripture say not what I think they mean.

Honestly Ready1 I am enjoying our conversation. We don't have to agree.

If you still think I am being contextually dishonest. Let me know why. I bothers me greatly.

Yes, we agree on the Median and Babylonian empires. Cyrus conquered both establishing the Persian (Aechemenid) empire later overthrown by Alexander the Great.
Yes, we agree the Jews are without a king for a period of time and that time comes to an end and that time is the time of the gentiles and that we are indeed in the latter days.


When I said "the time of the end" referred to the end of Israel being God's chosen Kingdom, I am say the end refers to the end as tenants of the vineyard and that the vineyard was turned over to the disciples. As the Jews blindness is removed, they shall be a part of the kingdom of God, but not as a race as they once were but as believers in Christ. Salvation is of the Jews, they shall always be the chosen people.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Tue May 02, 2017 6:28 pm

After looking over the debate thread again, and looking at the ducking and weaving which goes on with all to support their own theory, I am of the opinion that you and I will be unable to come to agreement as well.


I am a prophet and my prophecy has just been fulfilled :banana: . :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue May 02, 2017 7:03 pm

Can you provide support for your belief that the time of the end in Daniel is the same as when the fullness of Gentiles come in?

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Ready1 on Tue May 02, 2017 8:17 pm

I think I could, but could you accept it if I was able to? Once again, since our starting points are different, our ending points are different.
Just observing.

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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Tue May 02, 2017 8:36 pm

Probably not. But that depends on the argument.

It does not matter if I agree. You do not have to agree with me for me to discuss what I think.
I do not have to agree with you to listen to what you think.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue May 23, 2017 6:15 pm

keithareilly wrote:Salvation is of the Jews, they shall always be the chosen people.


Question - How does your aforementioned comment relate to:

Romans 2:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


AND:

Galatians 3:26-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27) For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.


Just ASKING :humm:
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed May 24, 2017 5:04 am

Mr. Baldy,

God chose a people as the ones through whom Christ would come. They became the Jews.
He used them to show us in a worldly way what happens in the spiritual world. How so?
He enslaved them for 400 years, just as all men have been enslaved to sin.
He freed them from slavery just as He freed Christians from enslavement to sin.
He gave them the Law in this world; He wrote the law on our hearts.
He gave them a kingdom over which He was King; just as we are a nation that is not a nation with Christ our King.
He blinded them to show us how the world is blind and so through their trespass the rest of the world could be saved.
For nearly 2000 years they have and continue to suffer blindness for God's purpose of bringing light to the gentiles.
They are the cultivated branches, we are the wild branches, grafted in.

The Jews were chosen for these purposes. This cannot be changed.
It cannot be changed that Christ was a Jew.
It cannot be changed that He chose a people to show in a worldly sense what is going on in a spiritual sense.
It cannot be changed that He blinded them to bring light to the gentiles.
They shall ever be the chosen people for history cannot be rewritten.


Romans 11:11-12, 24-29
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion[a] mean!

24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[c] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


When the fullness of gentiles comes in, the partial hardening and blindness imposed upon Israel for our sake shall be lifted.


Mr. Baldy,

God has not forgotten them; this is evidenced by their return to their land.

God chose a people through whom He would bring salvation to the world.
God blinded those people so that the rest of the world could be saved.
Today, God is still actively blinding them for our sake.
He has not yet, but shall one day, lift that blindness;
God is still using His chosen people for the purposes for which He chose them; to bring light to the gentiles.
They are still the chosen people; still being used to this very day by God to accomplish the Salvation for which they were chosen.

For salvation is of the Jews.
Not just that Christ came though them; but, they also, to this day, suffer partial blindness to bring light to the gentiles.

I do not know how to say this more clearly:
"To this very day, the Jews are still accomplishing the part of God's plan for which God chose them."

Keith
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed May 24, 2017 4:58 pm

keithareilly wrote:When the fullness of gentiles comes in, the partial hardening and blindness imposed upon Israel for our sake shall be lifted.


Now the aforementioned is EXACTLY what needs to be made known....... Paul is specifically speaking of the Nation of Israel - not the Jews as a specific race of people. Many make the mistake of thinking that because one is born a Jew that they have some sort of "special rite of passage" into Heaven. Truth of the matter is, many of them are unbelievers, and have to come to Salvation by Jesus as EVERYONE does.

This is what Paul has also identified:

Romans 9:6-8 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6) But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7) nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “ through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8) That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


So now the question becomes: "Who are the children of the promise?"

Well lets take a look:

Romans 8:29-30 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.


No man can come to God unless God draws him:

John 6:44 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


Those whom He Foreknew - no matter what Race, Creed, or Color are ALL Heirs According to the Promise:

Galatians 3:29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.


It doesn't get any clearer than that.
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Re: Debate Thread: The 70 weeks and the 1 Week

Postby keithareilly on Wed May 24, 2017 6:22 pm

Mr Baldy,

There is not conflict with what you posted and what I posted.

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