An End to Sin

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:02 am

Daniel's people, Jacob's children, are still sinning, therefore, this has not been completed.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:04 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:For myself, it seems simple. Daniel's people, that is, Jacob's children, won't sin anymore.

They will not sin, at all, not even one time, during the Millennial Reign?


Correct.

They will have ceased from sin. Them, and their children, and their children's children.

Will they all be Raptured at the end of the 70th week, is that how you see it?


No. The catching up of the church occurs at the beginning of the 70th week, the salvation of all Israel at the end of the 70th week.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:13 am

mark s wrote:Daniel's people, Jacob's children, are still sinning, therefore, this has not been completed.


shorttribber wrote:the Text (Dan. 9:24) Plainly says, "To Make" an End of Sin.....It Does Not Say, "To Fulfill" AN End OF Sin.


We should accept what the Text Plainly Says.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:21 am

mark s wrote:They will have ceased from sin. Them, and their children, and their children's children.


Where, are we to find another place in scripture that says a person will still be in a Corruptible Body of Flesh, and Never Sin mark?

I know it is possible for days, weeks. or at least a month....but a thousand years? Is there a place in scripture to prove that?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:42 am

1John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
There is scriptural based hope that we may not sin. "If" we sin, not "when" we sin we have an advocate.
"When" implies we have no choice, "if" means we have a choice.

Romans 6:13-14
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
We are able to choose to whom we present our members.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave[a] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Christ came to set us free from enslavement to sin. We are to be free indeed.
In deeds we are free of sin; our deeds should be free of sin.

Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.
We have been set free.

The norm should be not sinning.
Yet, we have come to accept that the norm is sinning.
We have the form of Godliness, but we deny its power.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:58 am

keithareilly wrote:The norm should be, not sinning. We have come to accept that the norm is sinning.We have the form of Godliness, but we deny its power.

I agree in part. I say "in part", as I think that your use of "denying the power" of God may be an overreach of the text.

I think there will be that time to come Keith, where Not Sinning Will be the Norm, but that will be When the "Perfecting of the Saints" reaches it's fulfillment (Eph 4)

And as I said before...that should occur Before the Gathering/Rapture.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:10 am

shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:The norm should be, not sinning. We have come to accept that the norm is sinning.We have the form of Godliness, but we deny its power.

I agree in part. I say "in part", as I think that your use of "denying the power" of God may be an overreach of the text.

I think there will be that time to come Keith, where Not Sinning Will be the Norm, but that will be When the "Perfecting of the Saints" reaches it's fulfillment (Eph 4)

And as I said before...that should occur Before the Gathering/Rapture.


Shorttribber,

I was editing my post to be more specific and provide more backup when you posted this.

I do not think it is an overreach. I truly think we are not taught this anymore.

Gen 4:7
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

We are expected to succeed when under trial, not give in to sin and fail.
Clean the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean also.
Scripture is full of verse about us being freed from sin.
So, why do we keep giving our members to it? Because we do not believe it is true? Because we hang tight to our sins?

Keith

P.S. I started this thread because I give in and fail to much, knowing in my head scripture says I can succeed; but, lacking sufficient faith in my heart to succeed. As I write these, my own words condemn me. Probably a good thing. Some stains in the cup are more stubborn than others.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:24 am

I am right there with you, I think we all are. That's why Paul said this....
Romans 7
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The time of Perfecting is soon coming, we Are In a Corruptible Body Still....God Knows.
Just keep pressing on....That's Faith....Sin Will Not Win.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:35 am

Shortribber,

An end to sin was made at the crucifixion.


Mattew 13:23
23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

We are to experience that end in our lives by: being born anew, maturing to produce good works, not sin.
For all, an end of sin was made; each believer should experience that end personally in our own lives here as we mature.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:50 am

keithareilly wrote:We are to experience that end in our lives by: being born anew, maturing to produce good works, not sin.For all, an end of sin was made; each believer should experience that end personally in our own lives here as we mature.


Please take careful note of what Paul said...
shorttribber wrote: So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Note how he says "I Myself" serve the Law of God......But he IS Still in A Body of Flesh (And THAT FLESH Sins).

His Spirit Man is Born Again (NEW)...Not His Flesh.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:53 am

The Command, Decree, Foundation Has Been LAID, for the End of Sin.
Sin Itself has Not Ended.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:59 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:Daniel's people, Jacob's children, are still sinning, therefore, this has not been completed.


shorttribber wrote:the Text (Dan. 9:24) Plainly says, "To Make" an End of Sin.....It Does Not Say, "To Fulfill" AN End OF Sin.


We should accept what the Text Plainly Says.


Hi ST,

I feel that's exactly what I'm doing, accepting simply what the text says plainly. Sin will end. That end will be made. And within the 70 weeks.

When I say I'm going to make a rocking horse, I can draw up the plans, buy and cut the wood, lay out the dowls and glue, and mix the paint. But I don't have a rocking horse yet.

If I'm going to make a rocking horse, I have to actually make it. It has to be a rocking horse. This is how I read it. There will be an end of sin for Daniel's people.

love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:24 am

mark s wrote:When I say

That's the Difference mark.........God Decrees, but you can only "Say".

Look at the Definition of the Word "Make" again mark.

mark s wrote:Command, Decree, LAID, Appoint


That's what the text says.

mark s wrote:I feel that's exactly what I'm doing, accepting simply what the text says plainly. Sin will end.

That may be what you feel, but that's not what the Text Says.....again, the text says..."To Make"

Meaning.....
shorttribber wrote:Command, Decree, LAID, Appoint
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:27 am

shorttribber wrote:The Command, Decree, Foundation Has Been LAID, for the End of Sin.
Sin Itself has Not Ended.


True, Sin still resides in our flesh and will remain there when we die.

Please take careful note of what Paul said...
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Note how he says "I Myself" serve the Law of God......But he IS Still in A Body of Flesh (And THAT FLESH Sins).

I do take careful note:
What Paul said here is: when under the law we can serve God only with our mind but not with our flesh.
But, Thanks be to Jesus Christ who has set us free, We are no longer under the Law of Sin and Death.

Consequently, we are not to let Sin reign in our flesh, we are not to give our members over to serve it.
It is to remain sterile in our flesh.

Romans 7:4-6
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.[c]

Romans 8:3-4
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


So, today, an End to Sin means while sin resides in us, Sin is not to reign in our flesh.
If it does not reign, we do not serve it with our bodies.
If we do not serve it with our bodies, we need not commit sins.

We are free from enslavement to sin; therefore, we are no longer forced to commit sins.
If we are not forced to commit sins, we are free to choose.
If we are free to choose, we are free to choose to not sin.

An End to Sin has been made for each of us.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:15 pm

Ezekiel 36 (ESV)

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations.

31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

33 “Thus says the Lord God: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. 34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. 35 And they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it.


At the same time that God regathers Israel, He will cause them to keep His commands.

Ezekiel 39 (ESV)
25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name. 26 They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid, 27 when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies' lands, and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, because I sent them into exile among the nations and then assembled them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore. 29 And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord God.”


God pours out His Spirit on the nation of Israel when He regathers them - all of them, no exceptions - back into their homeland.

Ezekiel 11 (ESV)
14 And the word of the Lord came to me: 15 “Son of man, your brothers, even your brothers, your kinsmen, the whole house of Israel, all of them, are those of whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Go far from the Lord; to us this land is given for a possession.’ 16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: Though I removed them far off among the nations, and though I scattered them among the countries, yet I have been a sanctuary to them for a while in the countries where they have gone.’

17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ 18 And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Affirms what is written elsewhere.

There are more I can post, hopefully these will suffice.

God will return Israel to their homeland, fill them with His Spirit, and they will cease from sin.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:21 pm

Mark,

When all these things happen, their blindness will be taken away and they will believe, experiencing what we believers are to be experiencing now.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:27 pm

mark s wrote:God will return Israel to their homeland, fill them with His Spirit, and they will cease from sin.


In all that you posted, not once did it say they shall Cease Sinning While Still in Corruptible Flesh. And I don't believe that you shall find such a place where it IS said.

We (The True People of God) are Careful to obey God's Commands Now, but we still Sin.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:57 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:God will return Israel to their homeland, fill them with His Spirit, and they will cease from sin.


In all that you posted, not once did it say they shall Cease Sinning While Still in Corruptible Flesh. And I don't believe that you shall find such a place where it IS said.

We (The True People of God) are Careful to obey God's Commands Now, but we still Sin.


Where did I say anything about "corruptible flesh", one way of the other? I'm just saying what I'm reading in the Scriptures.

Where does the Bible say that God Causes us Presently to Keep all of His Commands? I don't know of such a place myself. But I do know where it says that of them at that time.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:59 pm

24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:09 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mark,

When all these things happen, their blindness will be taken away and they will believe, experiencing what we believers are to be experiencing now.

Keith


Hi Keith,

I'd have to reply, the text says more than that.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:25 pm

It seems to me that we are making something that requires us to take responsibility for our sins, to lay them before God and to ask God for His forgiveness, into something that is complicated and difficult to obtain.

God is asking us to enter into a relationship with Him, individually, and as we do that we discover that the same boundary conditions apply to others just like us, but we are not allowed to judge other people because that Is God's responsibility, however we are required to forgive them their transgressions against us, which is one of the Boundary conditions that God has set for us to be in relationship with Him.

In the parable of the separation of the Sheep and the Goats, which is also spoken about in Ezekiel 34, God will separate out those who call Him Lord into those who have righteousness and those who do not. Those that Call God Lord who have been judged by God to be righteous, will be invited in to receive their inheritance while the ones who are not considered to be righteous will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire simply because they do not measure up to God's standards.

King David we are told was accepted by God because he had a heart for God's heart.

We too are acceptable if we have a heart for God's heart and are willing to lay down our lives to demonstrate God's heart to the people we rub shoulders with on a daily basis.

How God will achieve what he intends to do is His business, but how we enter into our relationship with Him is our business and one that is easy to accomplish as we take up our cross and follow Him.

That requires us to stand up and walk outside into the real world where we can be real for God.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:14 pm

mark s wrote:Where did I say anything about "corruptible flesh", one way of the other? I'm just saying what I'm reading in the Scriptures.

Your mention that they would not be Raptured would ensure that they continue in a Body that is Corruptible wouldn't it?

mark s wrote:Where does the Bible say that God Causes us Presently to Keep all of His Commands? I don't know of such a place myself. But I do know where it says that of them at that time.


Eph 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children
, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things
, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:18 pm

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God,
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:10 pm

shorttribber wrote:The Command, Decree, Foundation Has Been LAID, for the End of Sin.
Sin Itself has Not Ended.


Shorty, you are absolutely right. However you miss the mark..... The topic of this thread is "An End to Sin" - which is a requirement listed in Daniel 9;24. The "Foundation" has been "Laid" as you have mentioned - but the Work is NOT complete.

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

Sin and death are not one in the same.


Keith I wholeheartedly disagree. The wages of sin is DEATH (Roman 6:23) - The soul that sins shall DIE (Ezekiel 18:20)
Sin & Death are synonymous. One cannot get around this fact.

In order for Christ to make an End to Sin - He must Reign. He must destroy the last enemy which is DEATH.
(1 Corinthians 15;20-28) Please read and understand this passage of Scripture. When our Lord has completely destroyed the Last Enemy - then He turns the Kingdom over to God the Father - so that God may be ALL in ALL. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Most want to incorporate certain End Time Eschatology type Rapture Theories into this very clear passage of Scripture, but it cannot be done without including what Daniel 9:24 has clearly established - meaning the requirements thereof.

The 70th week will not conclude until the Great White Throne Judgment has been completed. So for those who think that there will be no literal Millennial Reign of Christ - and that perhaps the GWTJ is one and the same as the Sheep & Goats Judgment - then I strongly suggest that the proper evidence be submitted to support this theory. This would mean that it ALL ENDS when Christ Appears - and as for me, I truly am not ruling this out at this point, because I don't know.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:34 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:The Command, Decree, Foundation Has Been LAID, for the End of Sin.Sin Itself has Not Ended.

Shorty, you are absolutely right. However you miss the mark..... The topic of this thread is "An End to Sin" - which is a requirement listed in Daniel 9;24. The "Foundation" has been "Laid" as you have mentioned - but the Work is NOT complete.


The thread is called "The End of Sin", correct.

But you have incorrectly listed "The End of Sin" as a Requirement within the 70 weeks.

Here is what Daniel 9:24 says...
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make
an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

And This..."The Command, Decree, LAID, Appoint" is The Meaning of "Make" Strong's 7760&7761
And as you've already agreed, That has Already been Accomplished At the Cross.

So, The END of Sin is/was Not The Requirement, but the Decree or Command WAS.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:54 pm

Mr. Baldy,


Just FYI, I don't have an End Time Eschatology. So that last bit of your post is not applicable to me.

Keith I wholeheartedly disagree. The wages of sin is DEATH (Roman 6:23) - The soul that sins shall DIE (Ezekiel 18:20)
Sin & Death are synonymous. One cannot get around this fact.


Yes, the wages of sin is death.
Therefore, If I place Sin on one side of the scale, what must I place on the other side of the scale to balance it? Death.
Because they are placed on opposite sides of the scale, they cannot be the same thing.

They are equivalent in the sense the scale is balanced; they are not equivalent in essence.
If I build a shed and sell it, I receive my wages, gold, silver, currency, etc;
The wages and the shed are not one in the same.

Here is some food for thought, If death is the same as sin, then when Christ died He must also have sinned.
Instead, His death paid the wages for our sins. Our sins are on one side of the scale, Christ's death is on the other side.
Because this is true, sin and death cannot be one in the same.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:18 pm

Mark,

Where does the Bible say that God Causes us Presently to Keep all of His Commands? I don't know of such a place myself. But I do know where it says that of them at that time.


I posted the following verse a few posts above yours.
Romans 8:3-4
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Christ died so that we might fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law.
This is my point in this thread, we ought to be able to do this.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:31 am

keithareilly wrote:Here is some food for thought, If death is the same as sin, then when Christ died He must also have sinned.


Here is some additional "Food for Thought"

2 Corinthians 5:21 - (NASB)

21) He made Him who knew no sin TO BE SIN on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


He who knew no sin, became sin - so I believe that your "food for thought" point is moot. Again, sin and death are synonymous. The END of sin has not arrived, nor will it arrive until AFTER He has Reigned.

shorttribber wrote:The END of Sin is/was Not The Requirement, but the Decree or Command WAS.


Shorty, I get your point - totally. But I believe that you are missing the forest because of the trees. In order to "make" an End of Sin He must Reign. This is the purpose. Scripture is very clear about the requirement of His Reign - as He must destroy the Last Enemy - which is Death. Then He hands the Kingdom over to God the Father. Again, at the point of sounding redundant It is the purpose of His Reign - He must get this Earth back into His "Subjection" as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 - which reads:

24)Then comes the END, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He MUST REIGN until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27) For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28) When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


The aforementioned passage of Scripture is key to understanding that the requirements listed in Daniel 9:24 will NOT be met until AFTER He has Reigned. The entire purpose for His Reign is to make things right again - and are inclusive with the decrees that have been set forth.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Exit40 on Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:36 am

Mr B, as I believe the Daniel 9 Prophecy to be Messianic, and all that happens to be centered on Him, I prayed for a way to make known how the phrase ... " to make an end of sins" ... would be explained to us. And sure enough, HE has provided just that, through you, in His Word.

Mr Baldy wrote:
2 Corinthians 5:21 - (NASB)

21) He made Him who knew no sin TO BE SIN on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Christ's fulfilled that phrase at His Crucifixion. Beautiful !!!

He who knew no sin, became sin - so I believe that your "food for thought" point is moot. Again, sin and death are synonymous. The END of sin has not arrived, nor will it arrive until AFTER He has Reigned.


I agree sin and death are more than cause and effect, even though they really .. are .. that. But, Christ's ' Finished ' work on the Cross, by Him becoming sin for us, by His dying for us, by His Resurrection as Firstborn Son of God into the Kingdom, overcame death too. That has already been accomplished, through Him, for us.

2Co 5:14-15
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


The Daniel 9 Prophecy is difficult to understand and explain, even in knowing it is written from Eternity into time. A way of trying to understand it is to think about another phrase .. is .. happened .. I venture to say every phrase of Daniel 9:24 can be found as fulfilled if we examine the Scriptures for to see the what and how of Christ's Finished Work on the Cross which for us includes His Resurrection and Ascension. Christ did all that for to make it possible for us .. to be like Him .. in Him.
Cause and effect, because it happened , it is possible for us individually , in time. Is .. happened.

Beautiful Mr B.. Beautiful.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:02 am

Mr. Baldy,

2 Corinthians 5:21 - (NASB)

21) He made Him who knew no sin TO BE SIN on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Good Point!


Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:05 am

Mr. Baldy,

As I read your posts, I get the idea that you are talking about a time when the world we be as it was before Adam's sin.

Clearly, that is in the future.

As I said to you before I do't have an end time view.
What I am concerned with is today.

Today, are we Christians are still enslaved to sin ?
If not, then why should we not be able to cease sinning for the rest of our lives ?

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:39 am

Exit40 wrote:Beautiful Mr B.. Beautiful.


Thank you for your very kind words David :grin:

keithareilly wrote:Today, are we Christians are still enslaved to sin ? If not, then why should we not be able to cease sinning for the rest of our lives ?


Hi Keith,

The answer to your questions can be found in 1 John 1:8-10 - which reads as follows:

8) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.


I think the aforementioned verses of Scripture speaks for itself.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:47 am

Mr Baldy,

8) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.


This verse is not sufficient to answer my question.

Why? Because if one never sinned again after being saved, one would still have sinned in one's life and would still not be without Sin as Sin resides in one's flesh though it does not reign. A believe who recognizes this, yet ceases from sinning would not be in conflict the above verse.

I see evidence in scripture we are set free from sin and we need no longer sin. I do not see scriptural evidence that say we must continue to sin during our lives once saved. What I am putting forward in this thread is that to believe we must continue to sin after being saved is absolutely wrong. Consequently, "An end to Sin" has been made for each of us.

Edited to Add
And that End to Sin is available to us today.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:56 am

keithareilly wrote:I see evidence in scripture we are set free from sin and we need no longer sin.I do not see scriptural evidence that say we must continue to sin during our lives once saved.What I am putting forward in this thread is that to believe we must continue to sin after being saved is absolutely wrong.Consequently, "An end to Sin" has been made for each of us.

:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:10 am

shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:I see evidence in scripture we are set free from sin and we need no longer sin.I do not see scriptural evidence that say we must continue to sin during our lives once saved.What I am putting forward in this thread is that to believe we must continue to sin after being saved is absolutely wrong.Consequently, "An end to Sin" has been made for each of us.

:a3:



Shortribber

I added to my post, "And that End to Sin is available to us Today" after you posted.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:18 am

keithareilly wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:I see evidence in scripture we are set free from sin and we need no longer sin.I do not see scriptural evidence that say we must continue to sin during our lives once saved.What I am putting forward in this thread is that to believe we must continue to sin after being saved is absolutely wrong.Consequently, "An end to Sin" has been made for each of us.

:a3:



Shortribber

I added to my post, "And that End to Sin is available to us Today" after you posted.

Keith

:banana: Amen to that too :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:58 am

Keith,
There is a post I made a couple years ago that I think you would like to read.....you can read it below...

..................................................................................................................................
About thirty years ago, the Lord brought me to a place of thirsting and hungering after Him to such degree that for the space of about five or six months i averaged only about 3-5 hours sleep per night. my schedule went something like this.
Wake at 5am, praise God and pray for 3.5 hours, get ready for work in ten minutes start work at 9 and home at 5:20.
Run, literally run through the house eating usually cold hotdogs as fast as i could for ten minutes. then into the Word until about 10 or 11pm, then pray and praise God until 1 or 2 in the morning.
And it just continued like that until the Lord said, "I'm going to show you something".

Most of my prayer time prior to that moment was spent asking God, pleading with God to free me from sin, waiting on Him to reveal to me anything that kept me from the deepest intimacy with Him.

What happened for the next thirty days was a miracle....no other way to describe it. Brothers and Sisters, i'm being perfectly honest and i can assure you i'm not being delusional or just simply in error and what i'm about to say may sound absolutely impossible, but the Lord knows, it happened.

This is what happened.......from the time i woke till the time i slept for thirty days.......i did not sin.

I sought the Lord hours upon hours, "oh God, there must be something i've done, something in some way that i could have given you any sadness and displeasure in me"...........it was Him, it almost seemed as though i would have needed to force myself to sin. it was such a hidious thought to displease Him i just couldn't do it it seemed.

It ended after thirty days.....and that's all there is to it.....I'm a pitiful a sinner and as displeasing to God as any one of us.


But i know....i know we can Obey God fully .....When it is His doing.

{Watching quoted me}
shorttribber wrote:
But i know....i know we can Obey God fully .....When it is His doing.
watching wrote:
That would be the only way that that could be possible.
God would have to take complete control over our entire bodies. And it would have to be His doing, because there is
no other way we can have no sin in our lives.


{Then i/ST responded}
True, in part, it was not as if He had complete control as much as He had so magnified sin's ugliness that i chose to walk in the Spirit and just not fulfill the lust of the flesh, i just so strongly desired His pleasure rather than to sin
.
I still don't fully understand the dynamics of how it happened really.
...............................................................................................................................................

The time is coming Keith that i think this will become Common in the body of Christ, By His Grace....Before Christ returns for us.
Common Union With Christ will be Shared Completely then: Complete, Perfect Communion With Christ and his Entire Body...Before he Gathers us as his Bride..... Without Spot, Wrinkle, Or ANY SUCH THING
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:30 am

I debated with a fellow on another board once who had claimed that he and his fellows in his group had ceased from sin. There are a number of people who believe that is attainable though still living in corrupt flesh.

In this instance, this fellow resorted to telling lies about me, as he ran out of rational arguments. Not saying your arguments aren't rational, mind you, just saying I was reminded of that experience.

You can research the Holiness Movement for more information on this concept, should you wish.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 12, 2016 12:07 pm

mark s wrote:In this instance, this fellow resorted to telling lies about me, as he ran out of rational arguments.

That seems clear enough then that his first claim was wrong.

It's not easy to understand why a certain degree of Grace is not poured upon us to overcome every sin at present. But that at one time in my life, it did occur, I can't deny either.

I agree with Keith though mark....it's not impossible.
We can do nothing in our selves, but when God makes his Grace and Power irresistible by His own choosing, who can Resist it? What Christian would desire to?

That's all I'm saying, something uncommon happened, and I believe it could happen on a wide scale again.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:05 pm

Mark,

I am not claiming to have ceased from sinning.
As Shorttribber described, there have been times short periods of time when I have, though, much shorter than 30 days..

As I read scriptures I know it is possible. As a matter of fact, when I read scripture, it seems it ought to be the norm.
I have been discouraged in my failings to the point I have been thinking maybe I am wrong.
Yet, when I read, it seems I am not wrong.

I am frustrated with myself for failing to have sufficient faith (or desire) to do what I ought and leave sin behind.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby mark s on Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:03 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mark,

I am not claiming to have ceased from sinning.


Hi Keith,

No, I realize that, it just reminded me of an experience I had.

As I read scriptures I know it is possible. As a matter of fact, when I read scripture, it seems it ought to be the norm.
I have been discouraged in my failings to the point I have been thinking maybe I am wrong.
Yet, when I read, it seems I am not wrong.

I am frustrated with myself for failing to have sufficient faith (or desire) to do what I ought and leave sin behind.

Keith


"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you to want to do and to be able to do what pleases Him"

(Paraphrase)

I highly recommend an in-depth study of this passage.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:32 pm

keithareilly wrote:I am not claiming to have ceased from sinning. As Shorttribber described, there have been times short periods of time when I have, though, much shorter than 30 days..As I read scriptures I know it is possible. As a matter of fact, when I read scripture, it seems it ought to be the norm.I have been discouraged in my failings to the point I have been thinking maybe I am wrong.Yet, when I read, it seems I am not wrong.I am frustrated with myself for failing to have sufficient faith (or desire) to do what I ought and leave sin behind.


Hi again Keith,

As I have read what you have written - GREAT concern comes to my heart and mind. No man is without sin, nor can he live in this Fallen World; this corrupt body; and live sin Free - please pardon me, but that is a RIDICULOUS thought.

If man could live SIN Free - then there would be absolutely NO need for our Savior. This is why I initially presented this passage of Scripture:

1 John 1:8-10 - which reads as follows:



8) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.


The aforementioned passages of Scripture is very Clear. For one to think that he can live this current life in a Sin-Free fashion is TOTALLY Deceiving himself. Me, you and others will sin as long as we live in this Fallen World. It is our Nature. Scripture says that we have an ADVOCATE with the Father - who is Faithful even as we are NOT Faithful. He renews His Blessing Daily.

1 John 2:1 - (NASB)

Christ Is Our Advocate

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous


Lamentations 3:22-23 -(NASB)

22) The Lord’s loving kindnesses indeed never cease,For His compassions never fail. 23) They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness


In closing, for one to think that he or she can live a sin-free life - is DECEIVED. I'm not at all saying that we as Christians have a license to sin - NO WAY! As there is a price to pay, or consequences for sin. One may have moments of brief intervals where they may go periods of time without sin - however it is NEVER indefinite. If this were possible, then there would be no need for Christ. Furthermore, if there is a teaching, Church, congregation, Pastor - or any Other that teaches such - then I would Strongly suggest that you FLEE from it! This is the Strongest form of Legalism that one can ever come across in Christianity. This form of Legalism has no place in Christian teaching - or any place for edifying the Body of Christ.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:01 pm

Mr. Baldy,

Thanks for your concern.

Here is my difficulty with what you said.

1 John 2:1 - (NASB)

Christ Is Our Advocate

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous


The purpose of the things written is so that "you may not sin" but "If" anyone sins ... .

In the very verse you quote, we see evidence that we are capable of not sinning. We see the phrase "may not sin" and the phrase "if anyone sins". Both of these phrases indicate it is possible to not sin once one becomes a believer.

In know way do I think that a believer who ceases sinning has suddenly become without sin or has never sinned.

It is only through our Savior that we are able to live free of Sin. The idea that anyone could live free of Sin without Christ is not what I am saying in any way shape or form. What I am saying is part of our salvation in Christ is to bear good fruit instead of evil (Sin).

I don't understand why you say this is legalism. As I understand this to mean only if we live through the Spirit can we stop sinning, I would appreciate an explanation as to how you see this as legalism. To me it would be a great Spiritual experience .

Thanks again for your time in this thread. I do appreciate it.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Mark

"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you to want to do and to be able to do what pleases Him"

(Paraphrase)

I highly recommend an in-depth study of this passage.


It is why I started this thread. I am working out my salvation, getting encouragement, and helpful advice.

Start a thread Mark. I think it would be good for many, including myself.

And by the way, thanks for your input on this thread.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:00 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy, Thanks for your concern. Here is my difficulty with what you said.

1 John 2:1 - (NASB) Christ Is Our Advocate

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous


The purpose of the things written is so that "you may not sin" but "If" anyone sins ... . In the very verse you quote, we see evidence that we are capable of not sinning. We see the phrase "may not sin" and the phrase "if anyone sins". Both of these phrases indicate it is possible to not sin once one becomes a believer.


Hi Keith,

I think that we need to look at Scripture as a whole - and not single out any particular verse to attempt to build doctrine on it. Can you imagine the "yolk" on one's shoulders living in this Fallen World virtually walking on egg shells for fear that they "might sin"? Jesus Himself, after the adulterous woman was brought before Him told her:
"Go and sin no more" (John 8:11). Another example is when Jesus tells us to:
"Be perfect, even as your "Father in Heaven is perfect". (Matthew 5:48) Now putting these examples that Jesus mentioned into perspective - the only way we can do this is to put our faith in Him. Jesus further tells us to come to Him - and states: "My yolk is easy, and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30)

I have mentioned these examples because we have sins of commission and sins of omission. Sins of commission are sins like lying - Sins of omission are sins that we commit that are not right, even if we don't "feel" that they are not right. And we further sin (sometimes) without even knowing that we have committed a sin. Therefore there is NONE who is righteous - not even one:

Romans 3:10-12 - (NASB)

10) as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

11) There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God;

12) All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one.”



keithareilly wrote:I don't understand why you say this is legalism. As I understand this to mean only if we live through the Spirit can we stop sinning, I would appreciate an explanation as to how you see this as legalism. To me it would be a great Spiritual experience .


Keith I believe that you explained it well when you mentioned this:

It is only through our Savior that we are able to live free of Sin.


I just want to piggyback on this, and explain it in a different way. None of us are going to STOP sinning. It's impossible, as none of us have "arrived" at the state of perfection. It is Christ who takes away our sins, because we have put our faith in Him. Therefore when we stand before Him in Judgment, we are told "Well done". It is because of Him, and NOT us - or any 'good works' that may have come about as a result of putting our faith in Him. To think that we can stop sinning is a "works based doctrine" - and is legalism at it's core.

Living through the Spirit is "Knowing Him". Having a relationship with the Savior in daily communication. Worship, praise and confessing our sins before Him. This is what we as believers do. Not that we can live a sin free life - again, we have not "Arrived" yet. We need a Savior. That is His purpose. Believing in Christ is not "Works Based" - although you WILL bear fruit. It is because of Him, and we must not forget that.

Now, I want to provide an example to you. What if a person who is a True Believer suddenly becomes down with a disease like Alzheimer's or Dementia, and they began to commit sins and died? Would you say that that because that True Believer with this disease who has passed away will not make it into Heaven?

I would hope that you wouldn't. Christ is the Way - not us and our works.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:42 pm

Mr. Baldy, Still Chewing on your response. Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Ready1 on Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:50 pm

Jesus further tells us to come to Him - and states: "My yolk is easy, and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30)


I think someone ought to "egg-you-on" to spell "yolk" as yoke! And that is no yoke! :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:12 pm

Ready1 wrote:
Jesus further tells us to come to Him - and states: "My yolk is easy, and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30)


I think someone ought to "egg-you-on" to spell "yolk" as yoke! And that is no yoke! :grin: :grin: :grin:


Ready1,

If you read more closely, you will notice Mr. Baldy was talking about how difficult it would be to be walking on eggshells in this world.

I am still chewing on his response.

Keith
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby Ready1 on Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:50 pm

You guys are "Egg-stra special". :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: An End to Sin

Postby keithareilly on Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:02 pm

:grin:
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