The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

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The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:58 am

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Mathew 7:12
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The two sides of the word of Mathew 7:12
Side 1: Treat people the way you want them to treat you.
Side 2: Pay attention to how people treat you, they are telling you how they want you to treat them.

Any thoughts.
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby HighBeams on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:17 pm

Mathew 7:12
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The two sides of the word of Mathew 7:12
Side 1: Treat people the way you want them to treat you.
Side 2: Pay attention to how people treat you, they are telling you how they want you to treat them.






I understand the Side 1 aspect here. God tells us over and over to treat other people as we wish ourselves to be treated (i.e., in the best and kindest way possible).

However, your Side 2 aspect does not make sense to me. Are you saying that if you notice people treating you badly and disrespectfully, it is their way of telling you that they want you to treat them badly and disrespectfully in return? If that is your point, I'm not following. It makes no sense to me that any mentally healthy person would mistreat someone because s/he wishes to be mistreated her/himself. What am I missing here?
Cindy

"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you. Isaiah 43:2 (New American Standard Bible)
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:30 pm

Cindy,

I am not sure you are missing anything.

If you are nice to me, I will pay attention to how your are nice to me.
I will try to be nice to you in the same manner.
I assume this is what you would want.
If I am correct and this is what you want, then you have communicating to me how you want to be treated.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby HighBeams on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:01 pm

Okay, I agree that a believer can communicate desired behavior by treating another person (especially an angry person) in a calm and respectful manner. "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Proverbs 15:1 In fact, Jesus expects us to react to another's hatred and mistreatment in a specific way. "See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all men." 1 Thessalonians 5:15 We are to be trying to model a loving (or at least a nonhostile) response to mistreatment just as Jesus Himself did. What we have no Godly business doing--deliberately or not-- is modeling disrespectful, hateful, and abusive behavior back at them. What person in his or her right mind desires, relishes, or even wants people to abuse them back?
Cindy

"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you. Isaiah 43:2 (New American Standard Bible)
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:41 am

The Double Edge of Word- Do unto others......

This is something I am experience Now.....
As a Pastors wife.....I have been loved and looked upto...
Now listen to what I am trying to say....
I have to have help here in my home......
I have hired several woman to help me.....and Shocked how people come into my home and steal.
again and again.....these people seem so nice....but they work for a few weeks and leave.....and leave with things I have had since ....ages

What has happen to our generation?

Do people have no fear of God.....are all the commandments broken.....Do we not have a fear of God...and Judgment?

I'm sorry I am saying these things.....But I do Beleve that America is going to be Judged....soon

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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby SueAnn on Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:54 pm

Mrs. B wrote:The Double Edge of Word- Do unto others......

This is something I am experience Now.....
As a Pastors wife.....I have been loved and looked upto...
Now listen to what I am trying to say....
I have to have help here in my home......
I have hired several woman to help me.....and Shocked how people come into my home and steal.
again and again.....these people seem so nice....but they work for a few weeks and leave.....and leave with things I have had since ....ages

What has happen to our generation?

Do people have no fear of God.....are all the commandments broken.....Do we not have a fear of God...and Judgment?

I'm sorry I am saying these things.....But I do Beleve that America is going to be Judged....soon

Mrs. B

Just want to give you a giant hug, sweet lady.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{Mrs. B}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
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فَأَجْعَلَ مِنْكَ أُمَّةً كَبِيرَةً وَأُبَارِكَكَ وَأُعَظِّمَ اسْمَكَ، وَتَكُونَ بَرَكَةً (لِكَثِيرِينَ).
َأُبَارِكُ مُبَارِكِيكَ وَأَلْعَنُ لاعِنِيكَ، وَتَتَبَارَكُ فِيكَ جَمِيعُ أُمَمِ الأَرْضِ »
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Exit40 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:52 am

Mrs. B wrote:
I'm sorry I am saying these things.....But I do Beleve that America is going to be Judged....soon

Mrs. B


I know the feeling Mrs B, it can be very disheartening. I believe these happenings to BE the Judgement, not the portender of it. If we don't know God we still have a chance to, but to reject Him is to bring these behaviors on ourselves and our children. Hang in there Mrs B. :a2:

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:25 am

keithareilly wrote:Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Mathew 7:12
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The two sides of the word of Mathew 7:12
Side 1: Treat people the way you want them to treat you.
Side 2: Pay attention to how people treat you, they are telling you how they want you to treat them.

Any thoughts.


Hi Keith,
If Hebrews 4 speaks in any way of what you've mentioned it just does not appear in the entire chapter I don't think.
The entire chapter is to show that God Alone Knows if there is True and Very Real Faith in our Hearts to REST in the Finished Work of Christ.
It seems that the focus you've mentioned on the "TWO Edged" sword is where our focus should be, and it just is not a correct examination of Hebrews 4 IMO.

I'm just making an observation, and mentioning my thoughts on this as you've asked.....no disrespect intended at all.

:hugs:
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby mark s on Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:00 am

There is no second "edge". Treat others the way you want to be treated. Period. Not, treat others the way they treat you. There is no reference to their behavior.

Love in Christ,
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. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:05 pm

:snack:
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:44 am

You know,

I am kind of surprised people concentrate on negative instead of the positive.
Does no one pay attention to how people are nice to them and reciprocate?


Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby mark s on Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:06 pm

Why not treat everyone the best you can?

Why save your best for those who are nice to you?

God gives rain to the righteous and the unrighteous (think 'farmers', who need the rain for their crops). Jesus said we are to be the same way. "Be perfect (complete, mature) even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Treat everyone just as good as everyone else, giving them your best, without regard to whether they are "especially good" to you, or not particularly nice. That part isn't the point.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:41 pm

Mark s said

Why not treat everyone the best you can?

Why save your best for those who are nice to you?


It is interesting you think I said this or what I said implied this.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:37 pm

I guess what surprises me here is that I always thought Jesus was saying to not just treat people well, but listen to others actions and learn how to be nice to them the way they would like.

Implicit in do unto other as you would have them do unto you is that not all people want to be treated nicely the same way.
So, to be the nicest to all people one should listen to how people want to be treated.

Christian A wants to be treated such and such,
Christian B wants to be treated this way and that.
Christian C would prefer none of the above but prefers something culturally different.

Personally, I would like people to listen to how I treat them and treat me likewise.
Sometimes, they do and sometimes I even decide I don't like it much and change how I treat others.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:44 am

I have contemplated the responses on this thread for a while now.

Has anyone noticed that not one response in this topic has concerned itself with listening and learning about how to be nice to another person as they would like you to be nice them.

Most responses in this topic reveal selfishness in the form of a pattern of thinking that excludes examining another's behavior to learn how another wants people to be nice to them. Selfishness is only concerned with self, not another.

If you are concerned only with how you want to be treated, then you are communicating that how another wants to be treated does not matter to you. There is no love in such a pattern of thinking.

I have been a member here for a few years, of all the posts I have read, with all there passions and vehemence,
it is the apathy about how another person might want to be treated nicely that make me question seriously if I want to remain a member.



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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:02 pm

I have been a member here for a few years, of all the posts I have read, with all there passions and vehemence,
it is the apathy about how another person might want to be treated nicely that make me question seriously if I want to remain a member.


Keith, I'm so sorry to hear you say this. There must be a misunderstanding of some sort because it's just not like you to feel that way. Perhaps others misunderstood what you were focusing on...or could it be you misunderstood their response? Either way, I have always respected you and your view whether or not we agree and I hope you will feel the same way about the perspectives others have shared.

We are all individuals, unique, and come from a variety of backgrounds so we may see things differently or not completely understand the point another has made. I know this for a fact because I am a square peg who has felt pressure all my life to fit into a mold I didn't fit. And I know others think I'm just being selfish and/or disagreeable, but I don't know how to be what they want me to be. Trying to live up to other's expectations is very difficult and causes a lot of unnecessary stress if we would all just accept one another just the way we are.

Hope this makes sense and that I haven't misunderstood your comment and your disappointment in the replies. Don't give up on us!

:hugs:
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:29 pm

Abiding,

This is really straw number two. The first one was a debate we had sometime back about being merciful to a brother who has committed a crime. You and I debated much in that thread.

I have been thinking about this for some time and certainly all day today after my post.
Why did I post how I felt about what I observed? Why not just not come back?
Why did I start this thread? What did I want to share?

The greatest gifts are: faith, hope, and love, love is the greatest of these.
Did you know love is a possession? If one does not have love, one constantly tries to get it from others.
If you have love and share it, it multiplies, like a cell dividing as it reproduces, resulting in more love in the world.

Love your neighbor as yourself means: Love yourself and love your neighbor.
The word "as" is interesting, it means: while and in the same manner (among other things).
Loving someone means doing good to them which implies knowing what is in their best interest.

Everyone here knows these things. I do not doubt that.
There are loving people here. I know this to be true.

So why share my thoughts and feelings here?
Maybe because with all the evil in the world I am struggling to keep my love for others from growing cold. Perhaps I wanted to share a way of loving other people and to hear encouragement or perhaps because maybe I am not the only one struggling to continue being a loving person. There are loving people who will read these things and choose to love in a way they had not previously loved and the world will be just a little bit better for the people whom they love and for themselves. And perhaps maybe simply sharing a way I see to love others helps me fight back against the wickedness that wants me to give up and be selfish.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Exit40 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:28 am

Mat 7:11-12
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


Keith, whenever I run into my own difficulties with Scripture I take a step back and look at the context into which it is written. In this case I believe you are mistaken as to how it is we think we want to be treated, as humans. Rather I believe the context is how we should be treating each other as Christians. Others as well as this is the sharing of the Gospel, which is the Law and the Prophets. As we are not perfect in our faith, nor completely evil neither, what this is about is a walk with Christ in our endeavors to be like Him, a life long process of learning the love Christ has for us all, and being able to share that into Salvation with others as well as ourselves. Perfect Love casts out all manner of anything evil, that which is not Perfect Love. There is no double edged sword here, except that which we ourselves bring to it. Christ does not discontinue Perfect Love for us because we can't do it for others. We are well covered here, as we are simply human and lack that ability for the most part. So we are to be like Him in this manner also, Love beyond what we think is our capacity to do so, expecting nothing in return. Our reflection of His Perfect Love is to be able to die that others may live, even if it is just corporal life. No greater Love is there than this, in this life. We are even to love our enemies, but in doing so do we expect them to return that love ? To do so is to expose ourselves to the 'other edge' of our own sword, if you want to look at it that way.

Love Christ, share His Gospel, the good news that is for us is there for others. That is what this is all about. It is written in the Law and the Prophets, just as Jesus said.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:25 pm

David,

I know you HEAR what people DO.
To LISTEN is: to adjust ones behavior in accordance with what is HEARD.
We LOVE another by: LISTENING, changing our behavior for their good.
LOVE LISTENS to ACTIONS.

To refuse to HEAR what another's actions are saying is to refuse to LISTEN then refuse to LOVE.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Exit40 on Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:01 pm

keithareilly wrote:David,



To refuse to HEAR what another's actions are saying is to refuse to LISTEN then refuse to LOVE.

Keith


Depends on if you want to enable, or empower. I prefer the latter, as the former is not only destructive, but self destructive. Too many people today like the drama they produce, stars of their own little reality shows I guess. I will not take part in that kind of action, not any more. I have heard that tune before and recognize it almost immediately. I am interested in real people with honest emotions. That doesn't mean I have to be hateful in dismissing their actions, just means I have to be wary of their likely continual efforts to relive the same drama in a different scene. Call it tough love if you will, we've tossed that about some, and I think it is worth the effort to call someone into reality. Hard to get someone out of themselves, when that is all they know. Or want to know. But that is the world today, in so many ways.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:17 pm

David,

Yes, now we are on the same page.

When we LOVE we LISTEN first what they are DOING, THEN we decide HOW to LOVE.

But we LISTEN first to their ACTIONS not their words.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Exit40 on Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:46 am

Words are actions. 70% of communication is body language so we 'watch' that also, even if we are not aware we do it. When we consider this medium and how difficult it can be to get our intentions across to another it is a wonder sometimes we come to understanding, much less get along. Out of the heart come our intentions, maybe it takes another heart to understand. And this being where love resides, or evil, this is our true interpreter. But the heart interprets the feelings, not the thoughts. Words can mask, but intentions can be 'seen' by the heart. So now the question becomes, not how to love, but how much to love.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:15 pm

David,

Yes. Implicit in how is how much. When loving (doing good) to overcome evil there is a certain amount (quality, duration, etc) of love needed to the reshape patterns inflicted in another by the evil they have experienced. And when doing such things, one must listen with the heart where compassion resides.

My original point in this topic is that we should listen to what people do because they are communicating how they want to be treated.

There are four situations:
1) Return evil actions for the evil communicated through actions
2) Return good actions for the evil communicated through actions
3) Return evil actions for the good communicated through actions
4) Return good actions for the good communicated through actions

In all cases we are to return good regardless of what we experience.

My point is: In case number 4, we should be listening to the good communicated through actions before deciding what good to return. Do we return the good we want or do we return the good the other person wants. I am arguing to return the good the other person wants. Love them. But be charitable; love them they want to be loved not necessarily the way we would choose to be loved.

Mostly, my disappointment in the responses in this thread is related to the concentration on evil.
Only one of the four cases is about good given and good returned.
It is upon this case that unity is built, where the good given and then returned builds bonds of love making us one.
There is reason Christ prayed that we be one, it must be accomplished and it is accomplished in Christ through the love he teaches us. So this is an important topic and if this topic is lost to most people how can unity be built amount us?


Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby readyornot on Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:46 pm

I don't think using Hebrews 4:12 about the Word being a two edged sword, is justification to assume that every other verse in the Bible has "the other side" that can be stated in some human derived corollary that seems right to us. I just don't think that is what the purpose of Hebrews 4:12 is. Actually, there may be many other sides to some verses in the Bible. Or none at all. The Bible simply does not say "Pay attention to how people treat you, they are telling you how they want you to treat them."

Now, it's not wrong to speculate about such things. Actually, this whole thread makes me think of Gary Chapman's [i]The Five Love Languages[i], which is a great book. But, it's not scripture. I think you may be on to something in trying to decipher how people are nice to us. You said: "If you are nice to me, I will pay attention to how your are nice to me.
I will try to be nice to you in the same manner.
I assume this is what you would want.
If I am correct and this is what you want, then you have communicating to me how you want to be treated." This relies on assuming and maybe being correct, so it is not foolproof. How novel, though, to be contemplating how to love others. You said you were struggling to keep this mindset. I think we're all feeling the love of many growing cold. Life in this world is just oppressive, it seems. I need to check my love gauge too. I tend to be crusty.

"So, to be the nicest to all people one should listen to how people want to be treated." I'm not sure about the word nice, which you used several times. When being commanded to love others, I'm don't think that's the same as trying to be the "nicest" we can be. I know that sounds like I'm advocating not being nice, but I'm not. Many, many people would think we're extremely nice if we gave them money, sex and drugs. (I'm not suggesting you said to do that, just trying to illustrate through extremes the difference in being nice and loving.) God's greatest acts of love sometimes is saying "No" to what we want. Every parent knows that. We can say it as nicely as we can, but the recipient may not think it's very nice. I just keep going back to the Love languages. That book is all about discerning how best to love somebody in a way that they will appreciate the most. And, it's not negative, it's about how you do the positive. You may already be familiar with it, but if not, check it out. The main point is that it's different strokes for different folks, at least, in the way they need, or want, to be loved. God is the best at this, but we are called to imitate Him. Again, it's reflected in parenting, too.

I'm thinking about the Good Samaritan story for some reason as I contemplate this post. It was very obvious how the beaten and robbed man needed to be loved. That Samaritan didn't know him from Adam, well maybe from Adam, but not any more personally than that. He didn't take time to figure out how to love him. He just acted on common God sense. I think just doing what is obvious is probably more than most do these days, so trying to figure out the best, most personal, way to love somebody is rare and complex. Most people have learned about social cues and what to do to ingratiate themselves with others, so mimicking that is not necessarily the best way to love them. I think maybe Jesus calls us to love them in radically different ways that they are unaccustomed to, not reinforcing social memes or habits they've accepted as love. I don't think giving them what they give, to teach them from a feedback loop, is what the Lord is looking for here in His commands, either.

As for your questioning whether to remain a part of this community, I especially hope you stick around. I don't post much, but your comments were some of the most meaningful to me several months ago on another thread where I was struggling about being divorced etc. I felt very loved by you taking the time to respond thoughtfully and truthfully. I hope you see this post as trying to engage you honestly, and not as an attack in any way. I can't account for any hard feelings you may have from some other interactions you've had here, but please realize way more people read and are blessed by this site, than those you may be aware of. And you are part of what makes it so.

If I've stepped in it, I'm sorry, really.
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:03 am

ReadyOrNot,


Thanks for your post. It helps.
I don't intend to leave. Had I decided to leave, I would do so without comment.
After all, this is a forum; commenting is engaging not disengaging.

I don't think the two edge sword lends to what I am saying, but it does describe it to some degree, hence its inclusion.
The corollary: paying attention to others comes from Christs statement about "do unto other as you would have them do unto you." Christ said this to all of us. If you obey Christ in this commandment then anyone should be able to look at your actions and see how you want to be treated. The truth of this has nothing to do with the double edge sword verse. I used the double edge sword analogy to describe this truth not to support it. I apologize to those who thought it was support for not being more clear on that.

As adults dealing with children, we do indeed love them as parents. We do good for them instead of returning their behavior. This is a consequence when parties in a relationship are separated by maturity, knowledge, experience, etc. The other edge of that sword :) is when we are dealing with someone more mature than we are. For example, when we look at Christ's life on earth. Then we pay attention not to what we want but to Christs actions because we learn from them, just as our children learn about love from us. What about when we interact with someone of equal maturity, a sibling for example? In this case we each share; we listen and expect the other party to listen.

Now step back and look at the statement "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" from the perspective of a parent instructing their children. Not one of the children; but, all of the children, together. Multiple things are said:
1) Each of you think about how you individually want to be treated,
2) Each of you actively behave they way you want your siblings to behave toward you,
Don't worry about how you want them to treat other siblings, that is not your concern,
3) Each of you pay attention to your own actions, ensuring your actions reflect how you want others to treat you,
4) Each of your sibling's actions should reflect how each of them wants you to treat them.

The selfishness I observed is a consequence of the attitude: "I am an only child".
We are siblings instructed by the same parent.

We have been instructed to: communicate our desires demonstratively.
Why has our parent taught us this? Is is not so we can all learn how to get along and be one family?

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:00 pm

The more I think about this the more I believe American Rugged Individualism culture is the cause of people not seeing Christ is telling us how to go about loving each other. We live in such a selfish, materialistic, individual rights are important, "me", culture that we each have been brought up to think in terms of "I" and just don't think in terms of "us" and "we". This takes a toll on our relationships because we don't put oneness and unity in Christ at the top, before "I" and "me".


Think back to elementary school when we were shown what happens when a bunch of iron filings are exposed to a magnetic field. Each of us is an iron filings. The words "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" is the magnetic field. Each of us iron filings experience a shift as we put in place those words in our individual lives. But we are seeing the effect only on our individual self and missing the pattern established by these words on the community of filings. We are each so concerned about our own personal relationship with God that we are missing the big picture, the pattern these words create by aligning the entire community of believers.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Exit40 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:35 am

keithareilly wrote:The more I think about this the more I believe American Rugged Individualism culture is the cause of people not seeing Christ is telling us how to go about loving each other. We live in such a selfish, materialistic, individual rights are important, "me", culture that we each have been brought up to think in terms of "I" and just don't think in terms of "us" and "we". This takes a toll on our relationships because we don't put oneness and unity in Christ at the top, before "I" and "me".


Keith, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think rugged individualism is the term that covers it. Maybe a little portion, but that is it. The rugged type makes something out of nothing, essentially out of themselves. The spoiled brat types insist it be given them, and there is never enough to fill that abyss of want, to the point of taking. We all fit in there somewhere in between I imagine, but with Christ at our center we move from there. True, the world causes us much pain and we have difficulty loving our enemies, but we are also told to be gentle as doves and wise as serpents. Being gentle as doves is a way of being nice, but maybe deceptively so as we are being wise as a serpent, a matter of self preservation in the world where we are all food for something. That fits in nicely with the term zero sum, meaning no one gains unless someone loses. So the issue can be how to give freely without loss so the gain achieved is not seen as taking, but receiving with gratitude, and not as being owed. Like respect, it cannot be received unless first given.

And that Sir, is how the true Christian heart gives to the world what it needs to 'hear', reserving for the brethren that which they need to 'hear'. WE are not from here, but WE are at one with our journey. Those who don't know that about themselves yet, will 'hear' it, and desire to go along with us. See, it's not from us the call comes, but through us, Pilgrims. When we allow ourselves to be 'used' in this fashion, we become one with Christ, which is what we want, which is what He wants when He says, as much as ye did it to another, ye did it to me.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:54 pm

David,

It is unfortunate that when we listen to what others want we do not always hear what they are doing. We learn to not throw our pearls to the pigs for they only turn trample on us. It is unfortunate this is how we have our eyes opened. I suspect you have been praying for wisdom for most of your life.

As I read what you said, then reread it. I understand you have learned from being trampled by the pigs. I understand you also hear what people are doing and have had your eyes opened to their connivings. I also understand you have a better grasp of wickedness and now, having your eyes open to it, are confronted with it nearly everywhere you look. It is difficult to love people by giving them what they need instead of what they want. It is revealing and frightening to see how utterly entrenched and owned by wickedness people can be without them having any concept or awareness of their state of existence.

You are a good man (and yes I know you see yourself sufficiently as Christ saw himself when He refused to be called good and so you also refuse). I am glad to have a brother in Christ such as yourself who knows such things and has struggled to see truth, a brother who experiences the cost of such truth, the revealing of the thoroughness of the living, permeating, wickedness that is conceiving death throughout this world.

I am glad to know you.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Exit40 on Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:29 am

Keith, I am loathe to call them pigs that surrounded me, as I love them. Blind to the truth and buried in their own fear would suffice for a description. What has baffled me is the refusal to find security in anything but what the world offers. The counter part to the abyss of want is the abyss of lack, neither can be filled by the other, but the way of the world is both hide the reality of the level plain of need in the attempt to do so. Here the blindness, the true lack of want, refuses to see the errors of faux need, that being to be seen as someone other than who they really are. To deny them this perceived need is to pierce the veil of their own denial. The ensuing melee is difficult for me, I have to admit my own failures at trying to be properly understood, and to have what I teach/am thrown down as not even worthy crumbs from a table. My worth in this world is presented as worse than nothing, rather something to be despised and spit on from lofty positions.

I am trying to separate myself from all this, to identify myself as I want to be in Christ, to be who He wants me to be for His purpose. Worldly things are attached, they are hard to let go of as they are a part of my thus far perceived Christian life, tools of my desire to serve and use the 'talents' given me. To lose them would mean a new path, and this beaten and tired old dog under the table is out of gas. Except for that which has driven me, those deep and almost beyond grasp concepts, to which I clutch at the skirts of as I see them to be the most important. Though weakened to the point of rupture as I wobble around out here, these are the values I strive to understand, know actually and by fully doing them. Forgiveness, and trust. These are the greatest powers granted us from Heaven. And these are what I most need. But I can't possess them, unless I give them away.

keithareilly wrote:I am glad to know you.


Likewise Brother.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:55 pm

David,

What has baffled me is the refusal to find security in anything but what the world offers.

You know the answer to this.
John 3:19-20
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

...
But I can't possess them, unless I give them away.

This is also how love grows within us.
People who demand to be loved, possess little love. Those who love much, possess love welling up inside them.
It is not that those who love little do so because they possess little love, they possess little love because they love little.
Likewise, those who possess love welling up inside them do not love much because the possess love welling up inside them, rather, the possess love welling up inside them because they love much.

Life expends. Death consumes.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:05 am

ReadOrNot,

Now, it's not wrong to speculate about such things. Actually, this whole thread makes me think of Gary Chapman's [i]The Five Love Languages[i], which is a great book. But, it's not scripture. I think you may be on to something in trying to decipher how people are nice to us. You said: "If you are nice to me, I will pay attention to how your are nice to me.
I will try to be nice to you in the same manner.
I assume this is what you would want.
If I am correct and this is what you want, then you have communicating to me how you want to be treated." This relies on assuming and maybe being correct, so it is not foolproof. How novel, though, to be contemplating how to love others. You said you were struggling to keep this mindset. I think we're all feeling the love of many growing cold. Life in this world is just oppressive, it seems. I need to check my love gauge too. I tend to be crusty.


The idea here is if two people are striving to treat people how they want to be treated as Jesus said we should do, then when two people also listen to what the other person is communicating through their actions, each person will refine their actions in that relationship and the two will grow closer.

The corollary rests on: as I am "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" I would have others listen to what I am communicating through my actions. If I would have them listen to my actions, then I must be willing to listen to their actions else I am not doing unto others as I would have them do unto me. If I want them to listen, I must first listen unto them. Implicit in the verse of do unto other is: take the first step; don't wait for someone else to make a the first move, do it yourself.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:27 am

Keith,

I think I understand where you are saying. If we truly love others we will listen to them. Yes as a minimum we should treat others as we want to be treated ourselves, but if we want to take the relationship to the next level, beyond casual acquaintance we will go beyond that and love others sacrificially. Not just seeing them as an extension of ourselves, but as the individual that they are, loving them in a way that they understand is loving to them. We cannot have this kind of love for everyone, but those who we are more intimate with who we spend time with "listening" to them and learning what their "love language" is.

I am reminded of the time when my husband and I were dating and for Christmas he got me a compound bow. I never expressed any interest in wanting to shoot a bow, but he was very into it himself. I still have the bow over 30 years later and have rarely used it. He wasn't listening, he was treating me how he would want to be treated.(He has come a long way since then).

I think the command to love your neighbor as yourself, is directed more towards how we treat our fellow man. Remember the parable of the good Samaritan, who is my neighbor? The person that you observe in need is your neighbor, be they friend or foe, treat them like you would want to be treated. If you were lying half dead in the ditch, having been beaten and robbed, you would want someone to help you. The Samaritan didn't have to listen, he saw a need and went above and beyond in his aid to this man, he showed him compassion and mercy. That is the point, to treat others with the love of Christ. To treat others the way you want to be treated. It is a general principle in dealing with our fellow man, think about how you want to be treated and do the same to others. But on a more intimate level I would agree with Keith that as we spend time with others and "listen" to them, we should love them in a way that "speaks" to them, within reason of course, we would not do anything contrary to God's word in order to express love to another, we should not love them in a way that enables them to continue in sin or that would cause us to commit sin or go against our conscience.


And if there is a double edge to the sword I would say it is this:

The word of God judges, and the word of God saves- those are the two edges.

RT
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:38 am

I am reminded of the time when my husband and I were dating and for Christmas he got me a compound bow. I never expressed any interest in wanting to shoot a bow, but he was very into it himself. I still have the bow over 30 years later and have rarely used it. He wasn't listening, he was treating me how he would want to be treated.(He has come a long way since then).


Excellent!
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:37 am

Here is a perspective for engineers.

How I treat others is a transaction based adaptive interface between myself and each other person. My basic interface settings are how I want to be treated. The other persons basic interface settings are how they want to be treated. As transactions occur between the individuals through the interface, an individually tailored custom interface develops between each individual allowing communication on levels greater than initially available with the basic interface. These customized interfaces allows for advanced cooperation between multiple entities enabling them to work together more cooperatively as a functioning unit as opposed to individuals. There are things that can be accomplished when people act as as a unit that cannot be accomplished by multiple individuals. The result is a synergistic organism of individuals that can accomplish things which are greater than can be accomplished by a mob.

The command to do unto others as you would have them do unto you is an ever evolving adaptive instruction enabling the customization of interfaces between multiple similar entities and the instruction promotes oneness and unity among the individual entities.

Note: only among individuals who implement the instruction "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" in their interface can this synergistic unity develop.

Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:33 am

The command to do unto others as you would have them do unto you is an ever evolving adaptive instruction enabling the customization of interfaces between multiple similar entities and the instruction promotes oneness and unity among the individual entities.

Note: only among individuals who implement the instruction "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" in their interface can this synergistic unity develop.


The problem arises when oneness and unity is interpreted as "sameness" by those who may misunderstand the desired outcome of the customized interface. :wink:
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:04 pm

Abiding,

The problem arises when oneness and unity is interpreted as "sameness" by those who may misunderstand the desired outcome of the customized interface


Not entirely correct.
This problem arises when people do not execute the instructions that make the interface adaptive or do execute them for their own purposes. If the interface adapts, it accommodates lack of sameness by creating a custom adapted interface for each entity interfaced. It is those who refuse to implement the adaptable instruction set or do so in part that require all other interfaces to adapt to their interface. Such members interfaces handicap the whole unit by limiting synergistic potential. This is most often an intentional control mechanism implemented by one or more members of the unit without thought given to the ultimate potential of the unit intended by the creator. Such members hijack the unit for their own purposes and use the adaptive capabilities of other members to shape a unit as they, not their creator, desire.

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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:41 pm

This is most often an intentional control mechanism implemented by one or more members of the unit without thought given to the ultimate potential of the unit intended by the creator. Such members hijack the unit for their own purposes and use the adaptive capabilities of other members to shape a unit as they, not their creator, desire.


Of course, the assumption is that the "intentional control(er)" knows the ultimate potential intended by the creator and hijack it for their own purposes.

My post was not that far off imo since the problem is control and/or hijack of the unit is intentional.

The problem arises when oneness and unity is interpreted as "sameness" by those who may misunderstand the desired outcome of the customized interface


Of course I'm not an engineer, so there may be some components to this theory I'm not comprehending. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:16 pm

Abiding,

Nope you weren't far off. I thought I would just spell it out.
Sometimes people do not always understand the consequences of what they are doing until it is revealed. I am such.

As I have contemplated this thread, I have come to see more of the responsibility placed on the elders of a congregation.
I have also come to see more clearly why they should have one wife and children old enough to choose Christ and do so.

If members prove themselves by forming a godly synergistic immediate family unit, then those responsible are good candidates for helping form a synergistic intra-congregational family unit as well as the inter-congregational church family unit. All of this is heavily dependent on good adaptable interfacing skills which demonstrate recognition of differences in individual entities as well as the synergistic potential enabled by the combining of entities into various sub units forming one unit.

Edited to Add:
This is why this topic is important to me.
When I became a Christian and learned the Law could be summed as Love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself, and also that Love is the greatest gift, I decided to concentrate on love. While I have not overcome all of my sins, love is the best tool for overcoming them. Loving someone in actions replaces the actions of sinning against them. I am still learning Loving myself in actions overcomes sinning against myself. Love actually overcomes evil with good when practiced.



Keith
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Re: The Double Edge of Word - Do unto others ...

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:44 am

Resurrection Torchlight,

Thanks for your response.

And I think the bow example is pretty good.

When dealing with the world, there are limits on implementing this topic.

When dealing with others who actively implement it there are fewer limits.
Each person decides on the amount of intimacy with another and limit their own adaptation to that person in accordance with that decision.

I used to be a sacrificial love language person. I have been broken of that and now hear the limits others impose and respect those limits. To those who would love me using the language of sacrifice, expecting sacrifice in return,
I say: "No thank you. Love me, but not at your own expense, love yourself too. And don't force me to choose between loving myself and loving you. Let me do both."

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