Christ's Gospel ..... still

[Sonbeam]

I posted the following in the thread "Can we always choose correctly?" but I believe this speaks directly to what constitutes the essence of the gospel, and that is why I'm starting a separate thread:


The term “bought” as used in 2 Peter 2 and in other passages in the scriptures has to do with the redemption that Christ with His blood secured for all mankind. It does not mean being born again of the Spirit.

The word “redemption” means purchasing/buying back (for a price or ransom ) something that was lost -- good standing (righteousness) before God.

Here are some scriptures that speak to this:

Matt 20:28
…..just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” NIV

1 Ti 2:5,6

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. NIV

Rom 3:23, 24

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. NIV

Are all men saved then because Christ redeemed all on the Cross?

No. Redemption on the Cross is only the first component of salvation, i.e., the “birth of water” Jesus spoke about to Nicodemus. For the salvation process to be complete, a man also has to be born of the Spirit.

sonbeam

[shorttribber]

sorry I haven't posted on this thread, it sounds interesting. My time is the main reason for silence from me. Who knows, maybe time issues are what causes most of the inactivity from many of us in our discussions these days.

[Abiding in His Word]

No. Redemption on the Cross is only the first component of salvation, i.e., the “birth of water” Jesus spoke about to Nicodemus. For the salvation process to be complete, a man also has to be born of the Spirit.

Hi Sonbeam,

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are refuting "universalism".

So while Jesus' sacrifice on the cross makes salvation available to all, they must take the next step. That would be the new birth in the Spirit.

I find it interesting that in discussing this with Nicodemus, Jesus' does not clearly tell him how this new birth happens.

[Sonbeam]

sorry I haven't posted on this thread, it sounds interesting. My time is the main reason for silence from me. Who knows, maybe time issues are what causes most of the inactivity from many of us in our discussions these days.

I hear you ST. Time, but also chronic pain at times. Not to mention that writing for me can be like pulling teeth sometimes.

Join in when you can. I welcome your input.

[Sonbeam]

No. Redemption on the Cross is only the first component of salvation, i.e., the “birth of water” Jesus spoke about to Nicodemus. For the salvation process to be complete, a man also has to be born of the Spirit.

Hi Sonbeam,

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are refuting "universalism".

Yes. I don't understand how anyone sees "universalism" supported by scripture.

So while Jesus' sacrifice on the cross makes salvation available to all, they must take the next step. That would be the new birth in the Spirit.

I find it interesting that in discussing this with Nicodemus, Jesus' does not clearly tell him how this new birth happens.

Yes, I've thought about that too Abiding. It certainly would have helped Nicodemus, and the rest of us too, for our Lord to have spelled it all out for him.

Though in John 3 Jesus enumerated all the essentials of the salvation process for Nicodemus, He did not explain to him that He, and not Nicodemus, would take care of the birth of water first and then the Father would perform the birth of the Spirit when a person believed in Jesus as the Son. That certainly would have eased poor Nicodemus’ bewilderment about how in the world he was going to manage being born again.

In contrast in John 4, Jesus gives the woman at the well the basic unadulterated gospel, and He directly reveals to her Who He is! Something that He does not do for anyone else. This is by far one of my favorite passages in the bible for our Lord Himself gives us the premier example of His gospel. I point to His encounter with the Samaritan woman whenever someone asks how to give the gospel.

sonbeam

[Abiding in His Word]

Though in John 3 Jesus enumerated all the essentials of the salvation process for Nicodemus, He did not explain to him that He, and not Nicodemus, would take care of the birth of water first and then the Father would perform the birth of the Spirit when a person believed in Jesus as the Son. That certainly would have eased poor Nicodemus’ bewilderment about how in the world he was going to manage being born again.

I think it helps if we remember who Nicodemus was. Jesus meets each person where they are. Nicodemus was a Pharisee and teacher so I think Jesus was challenging him. As a Pharisee and teacher who knew the scriptures, he perhaps should have known that a Messiah was coming and there would be a New Covenant established. It was one that would be written on their hearts rather than on stone. btw, there are over 300 prophecies relating to the coming of the Savior and their fulfillment.

In contrast in John 4, Jesus gives the woman at the well the basic unadulterated gospel, and He directly reveals to her Who He is! Something that He does not do for anyone else. This is by far one of my favorite passages in the bible for our Lord Himself gives us the premier example of His gospel. I point to His encounter with the Samaritan woman whenever someone asks how to give the gospel.

I, too, love this passage. She was hungry and thirsty and He provided exactly what she needed. The spoke to the apostles about being "fishers of men"; He praised Martha's sister, Mary, for wanting to learn and allowed her to sit at the feet of a rabbi ( a no-no for women); and honored the woman who ministered to Him from the alabaster vial by saying her action would be remembered forever. Though others disagree, this is one reason I think our personal testimony is the best way to introduce Jesus to those who are seeking. Changed lives....

[Keeping Alert]

Jesus meets each person where they are.

I think this is very true. Nicodemus came to Jesus calling him "Rabbi", "thou art a teacher"... He never looked to Jesus (at least at that point) as a savior and Jesus met him at that level...

Whereas for the woman at the well in John 4 (which I feel is put in juxtaposition to each other by the Holy Spirit for a purpose), while it is not clear from the beginning but as her heart begins to open up, she mentions this truth of what her lonely heart had been seeking all along... "I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ" ... She was looking for a Savior... and Jesus met her at that level...

[Sonbeam]

Jesus did meet Nicodemus and the Samaritan woman exactly where they were: two people under the sentence of death as the offspring of Adam and in dire need of a redeemer /savior.

This is why Jesus did not waste any time and immediately told each one about the salvation process. The responses He got from them showed that both were clueless – same as all of us have been prior to being born again IMO.

To Nicodemus, as one who considered himself a teacher of God’s Word and whom Jesus rebuked for not understanding what He was telling Him, He gave some homework. By giving Nicodemus facts about the process of salvation that Nicodemus could go back and confirm from the scriptures, Jesus in effect was saying to him as He did to other Jews in Matt 9:12, “Go and learn what this means.”

But to the Samaritan woman, who did not have the rabbinic religious baggage Nicodemus had, and therefore could more readily be open to the simplicity of the gospel, Jesus told her exactly how He could give her eternal life.

I think it is very possible that the reason Nicodemus came to Jesus was to find out if He was the Messiah. And if so, find out when Jesus was planning to restore the Davidic kingdom to Israel.

As a Pharisee, a teacher of Israel, and a member of the Sanhedrin, Nicodemus might have thought that this would qualify him and ensure him a preferential place within this earthly kingdom the Jews were expecting the Messiah to restore when he came.

Did Nicodemus have such aspirations in mind when he came to see Jesus? The fact that our Lord immediately told him that for anyone to enter the kingdom he had to be born again might imply this because by also saying that "whoever " believed in Him would receive eternal life, our Lord was letting Nicodemus know that ethnic background, being Israel’s teacher, and member of the Sanhedrin, etc., did not qualify him for entrance into His kingdom.

To be sure two of Christ’s apostles, with the aid of their mother no less, also tried to secure for themselves a place of honor in the kingdom. Matt 20:20-21

sonbeam

[Abiding in His Word]

Good thoughts, sonbeam!

I would just add that I think that Nicodemus' visit at night reflects a timid demeanor rather than an attitude of expectation of honor or prestige. Most often we read of Pharisee's confrontations with Jesus and in public situations so to approach Him at night seems (to me at least) to imply a more humble approach to inquire rather than confront.

Anyway, later we see him at the cross so we can be relatively certain of a new faith journey following his exchange with Jesus.

[BeTheMoon]

...I believe this speaks directly to what constitutes the essence of the gospel, and that is why I'm starting a separate thread:

The term “bought” as used in 2 Peter 2 and in other passages in the scriptures has to do with the redemption that Christ with His blood secured for all mankind. It does not mean being born again of the Spirit.

The word “redemption” means purchasing/buying back (for a price or ransom ) something that was lost -- good standing (righteousness) before God.

2 Pet 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought (agorazo - to redeem) them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

1 Cor 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought (agorazo - to redeem) at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

Rev 5:9 (In the throne room of heaven)
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed (agorazo -to redeem) us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,


Essence of the gospel? "Bought" does not mean being born again of the Spirit? Beloved, we are warned about a different gospel (2 Cor 11:4, Gal 1:6, Gal 1:8, Gal 1:9).

[BeTheMoon]

...Whereas for the woman at the well in John 4 (which I feel is put in juxtaposition to each other by the Holy Spirit for a purpose), while it is not clear from the beginning but as her heart begins to open up, she mentions this truth of what her lonely heart had been seeking all along... "I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ" ... She was looking for a Savior... and Jesus met her at that level...

The woman at the well is one of my favorite passages in Scripture!

Considering that the disciples marveled that Jesus talked with a woman, she had been with 5 men and here she's with her 6th, she comes to the well at a time when no one else does indicating that she was ostracized from her own people (historically wells were social gatherings for women), and to top it all off she is a Samaritan: a half breed from Assyrian captivity (a "non-Jew").

As Paul called himself a pharisee of pharisees, I think this woman can also be called an outcast of outcasts. And Jesus revealed Himself to her.

Oh, the richness of grace, mercy, and love of God! Who is like Him, the Lion and the Lamb seated on the throne? Praise Adonai! Praise Adonai!

[Sonbeam]

...I believe this speaks directly to what constitutes the essence of the gospel, and that is why I'm starting a separate thread:

The term “bought” as used in 2 Peter 2 and in other passages in the scriptures has to do with the redemption that Christ with His blood secured for all mankind. It does not mean being born again of the Spirit.

The word “redemption” means purchasing/buying back (for a price or ransom ) something that was lost -- good standing (righteousness) before God.

2 Pet 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought (agorazo - to redeem) them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

I’ve already explained my understanding in another post that Peter is speaking about false prophets and not Christians, if we look at this verse in context.

Since we’ve already gone over this verse several times, we can agree to disagree on this one BTM.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

1 Cor 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought (agorazo - to redeem) at a price ; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.

In the above verse, we see both births that a person must have in order to become a child of God, and you have already underlined them BTM

“Bought” as the verse shows above required a price: Christ’s spiritual death and His blood. Since the scriptures are clear that Christ died for all, if we take “bought” to mean the birth of the Spirit too, then everyone is saved. That is universalism which is not biblical.

After the Cross, the birth of the Spirit is executed by God only for those who believe on His Son.

The birth of water and the birth in the Spirit are two separate transactions.

I take it from your posts BTM that you believe salvation involves only one transaction? Is that right?

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Rev 5:9 (In the throne room of heaven)
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed (agorazo -to redeem) us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

I think we need to include Rev 5:10 to better understand this passage:

9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the [j]book and to break its seals;
for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." NASB

Verse 9 shows that men, who included those that would become saints, were bought on the Cross because it speaks of Christ’s blood, and that was shed on the Cross.

Verse 10 speaks to the birth of the Spirit which happens after men hear the gospel and believe and God makes them into new creations by the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, two different transactions that complete the process of salvation.

The whole process of salvation has always been completed only when cleansed/forgiven (through the Cross) men (the generation of Adam) are birthed by God of His Spirit and become children of the generation of Christ.



sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

I think before we get into any more discussions of those passages that seem to challenge OSAS, we really need to examine what exactly Christ was speaking of when He said, “It is finished.”

The biblical answer to this question will help us to better understand those difficult passages that create doubts in many believers about the security of their salvation. As it was, we put the cart before the horse IMO when we began to discuss those passages first.

And in my next post, I’ll give my understanding of what happened on the Cross.

sonbeam

[BeTheMoon]

In the above verse, we see both births that a person must have in order to become a child of God...

So, if I follow your logic... "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3 from the Bible)" should be "unless one is born again ("bought") and again (then "birthed" of the Spirit) he cannot see the kingdom of God (doctrine of man)?

Acts 1:8 says you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. No reference to birth. I think the OSAS belief causes all sorts of weirdness to support it. Christ died for all, but whosoever believes on Him will not perish. The thief on the cross believed and was with Jesus in paradise; are we to assume he was born twice while on the cross (1st birth of belief, 2nd birth of the Holy Spirit)? That's eisegesis which we are also warned about.

I take it from your posts BTM that you believe salvation involves only one transaction? Is that right?

Yep. Tetelestai! Paid in full!

Victory over sin and death through Christ (1 Cor 15:54-57). Just like the thief on the cross with one transaction.

Jn 3:14-15
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Num 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."

[BeTheMoon]

Rev 5:9 (In the throne room of heaven)
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed (agorazo -to redeem) us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

I think we need to include Rev 5:10 to better understand this passage:

9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the [j]book and to break its seals;
for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." NASB

Verse 9 shows that men, who included those that would become saints, were bought on the Cross because it speaks of Christ’s blood, and that was shed on the Cross.

Following your logic, wouldn't this make it 3 births now, or 3 transactions?

1 - belief
2 - the Holy Spirit
3 - the blood

(Disclaimer: I don't speak loosely of the blood of the Lamb. If there be irreverence in my heart of the cross and the work of God, then may I be removed from the fold of Christ.)

[Abiding in His Word]

are we to assume he was born twice while on the cross (1st birth of belief, 2nd birth of the Holy Spirit)? That's eisegesis which we are also warned about.

I experienced two distinct events: Born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit. Like those in the following verses, I didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit.

Act 19:2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Act 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Act 19:4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

I think the apostles who followed Jesus for three years believed in Him as the Messiah. And they received the Holy Spirit in the upper room following the death of Jesus.

Bottom line imo is that God reaches us where we are with the knowledge we have...or don't have. He knows how to get each of us from point A to point B.

[Abiding in His Word]

I experienced two distinct events: Born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I might add that both times I was alone, in my living room after having read about this in books that were given to me. I didn't want to be influenced by the beliefs of any group or church so I went directly to the Lord.

Again, I'm a firm believer that God knows our background and how to deal with us based on many things from our past that might cause us to resist His grace. I don't see Him holding a clipboard checking off the list of "must do's" that would cause us to be denied grace and gifts.

[BeTheMoon]

Bottom line imo is that God reaches us where we are with the knowledge we have...or don't have. He knows how to get each of us from point A to point B.

Empty vessels filled with the Lord!

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

[Sonbeam]

In the above verse, we see both births that a person must have in order to become a child of God...

So, if I follow your logic... "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3 from the Bible)" should be "unless one is born again ("bought") and again (then "birthed" of the Spirit) he cannot see the kingdom of God (doctrine of man)?

BTM

What I’ve been saying about the two births is not my idea. Jesus said it here:

John 3:5

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Acts 1:8 says you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. No reference to birth. I think the OSAS belief causes all sorts of weirdness to support it.

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” NIV



Yes, this verse does not make a direct reference to the new birth. But we can arrive at the conclusion that those there in the upper room had already been born of the Spirit or the power of the Holy Spirit would not have been given to them to go out and witness/proclaim the Gospel.

Matt 9:17
Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

1 Cor 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Rev 5:9 (In the throne room of heaven)
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed (agorazo -to redeem) us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

I think we need to include Rev 5:10 to better understand this passage:

9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the [j]book and to break its seals;
for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." NASB

Verse 9 shows that men, who included those that would become saints, were bought on the Cross because it speaks of Christ’s blood, and that was shed on the Cross.

Following your logic, wouldn't this make it 3 births now, or 3 transactions?

1 - belief
2 - the Holy Spirit
3 - the blood

No BTM.

Belief in and of itself does not constitute the new birth in the Spirit. The parable of the sower shows that there were some who initially received the Word, but were not eventually saved. Matt 13:1-9

The birth of the Spirit only happens when God chooses to seal that person’s belief with the gift of His Holy Spirit.

The progression of salvation for men born after the Cross is:

1. Birth of water (cleansing from sin by the blood of Chris)
2. Birth of the Spirit (through faith/belief in the Son )


sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Christ died for all, but whosoever believes on Him will not perish. The thief on the cross believed and was with Jesus in paradise; are we to assume he was born twice while on the cross (1st birth of belief, 2nd birth of the Holy Spirit)? That's eisegesis which we are also warned about.

Thank you for raising this question about the thief on the Cross BTM and for continuing to engage in this discussion. At the very least, it helps to sharpen our understanding of what each of us believes and why.

Yes, the thief received both the birth of water (cleansing from past sins) and the birth of the Spirit on the Cross. Amazing! The only saint to experience this miracle! I’ve always thought this is one of God’s most lavish displays of His grace!

We know that the thief believed when he made his request to Christ to remember him when Christ came into His kingdom. And Christ’s affirmative answer tells us that the thief was born of the Spirit then. God had made him into a new creation. For flesh and blood (children of Adam) will not inherit the kingdom.

1 Cor 15:50
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

However, the thief’s salvation process was not yet completed at the moment he was born of the Spirit. But at that very moment though, Christ was pouring out His blood to cleanse him and all men (to include the other thief) of their sins (birth of water).

When Christ said, “It is finished,” the salvation process was complete not only for the thief, but for all those saints who had died in Christ prior to the Cross.

sonbeam

[BeTheMoon]

BTM

What I’ve been saying about the two births is not my idea. Jesus said it here:

John 3:5

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Several questions for you...

1. Why is water and Spirit two separate transactions? When you buy groceries, say milk and honey, when you pay-in-full is it not one transaction?

2. Why do you take "no one can enter the kingdom of God" literally in this passage and not other passages such as 1Cor 6:9, 1Cor 6:10, and Gal 5:21?

[BeTheMoon]

Acts 1:8 says you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. No reference to birth. I think the OSAS belief causes all sorts of weirdness to support it.

Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” NIV


Yes, this verse does not make a direct reference to the new birth. But we can arrive at the conclusion that those there in the upper room had already been born of the Spirit or the power of the Holy Spirit would not have been given to them to go out and witness/proclaim the Gospel.

We can arrive arrive to this conclusion????

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

I marvel.

[BeTheMoon]

Yes, the thief received both the birth of water (cleansing from past sins) and the birth of the Spirit on the Cross. Amazing! The only saint to experience this miracle! I’ve always thought this is one of God’s most lavish displays of His grace!

We know that the thief believed when he made his request to Christ to remember him when Christ came into His kingdom. And Christ’s affirmative answer tells us that the thief was born of the Spirit then. God had made him into a new creation. For flesh and blood (children of Adam) will not inherit the kingdom.

By what Scriptures do you receive this "affirmative answer"???

John 16:7 (again)
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

The thief believed.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

[mark s]

I think all we have in Scripture is that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the 11 remaining disciples, but that the Spirit was not given corporately until Pentecost. So that this was another way these 11 men were unique in history, having been born again (I would suppose) but not yet part of the body of Christ (again I would suppose), which was not begun until they all received the Holy Spirit.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Sonbeam]

I think all we have in Scripture is that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the 11 remaining disciples,


Mark

Agree with you Mark as far as this scripture below being an explicit one. This is one that I was going to cite along with some others that are not explicit but strongly imply that the 11 apostles had already been born again before Christ's crucifixion:

John 20:21-23
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Though I see this as a reiteration of something that had already happened. I’ll cite other passages in another post. One is rather long.

sonbeam

[mark s]

I'd have to say that since rebirth begins with dying in Christ, then raising to new life, that no one could have been born again before Jesus died.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Sonbeam]

BTM

What I’ve been saying about the two births is not my idea. Jesus said it here:

John 3:5

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Several questions for you...

1. Why is water and Spirit two separate transactions? When you buy groceries, say milk and honey, when you pay-in-full is it not one transaction?

Well, the salvation process is more complex than buying groceries as you and I well know BTM. To understand what Christ meant when He said, "It is finished," we have to discuss exactly what Christ accomplished on the Cross.

And I apologize for not putting my understanding of this in writing yet.

Christ came to pay for sins committed by all men under the Adamic Covenant, i.e., to undergo in our stead the death penalty for those sins, to cleanse/wash us from sin with His blood in order to obtain our forgiveness, and not only this, but also to ratify the New covenant in His blood. I will go into the details on all this later.

2. Why do you take "no one can enter the kingdom of God" literally in this passage and not other passages such as 1Cor 6:9, 1Cor 6:10, and Gal 5:21?

Any passage that seems to imply that Christians (born again believers) can lose their salvation must be interpreted in light of what Paul says in verse 18 below in Galatians.

Gal 5:18
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

I'd have to say that since rebirth begins with dying in Christ, then raising to new life, that no one could have been born again before Jesus died.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Could you explain what you mean by "dying in Christ" ? Do you mean on the Cross?

[mark s]

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

(Romans 6:3-11 ESV)

[Abiding in His Word]

So that this was another way these 11 men were unique in history, having been born again (I would suppose) but not yet part of the body of Christ (again I would suppose), which was not begun until they all received the Holy Spirit.

I'm thinking this was a special anointing for service prior to the fulfillment of Joel and the gifts of the Spirit at Pentecost. Throughout the OT the Holy Spirit was poured out at various times for special/specific ministry or service; i.e. Samson, Joshua, Gideon, Elijah, Elisha, etc. These were, after all, not necessarily brave, powerful men who were ready to venture out on their own without Jesus by their side. The anointing for that service prepared them to preach the forgiveness of sins until they were clothed with power from on High. That power brought with it signs and wonders.

[BeTheMoon]

Well, the salvation process is more complex than buying groceries as you and I well know BTM

As for me, I believe it's LESS complex! Way LESS complex...

Mt 11:28-30
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Mt 18:2-3
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.


Intellect is a good servant but a dangerous master.

[Sonbeam]

I'd have to say that since rebirth begins with dying in Christ, then raising to new life, that no one could have been born again before Jesus died.

Love in Christ,
Mark

What about those saints mentioned in Hebrews 11? specifically Abraham:

Gen 15:6
For this reason, those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed.

Rom 4:3
For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

Gal 3:6
Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,”

Gal 3:9
For this reason, those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Well, the salvation process is more complex than buying groceries as you and I well know BTM

As for me, I believe it's LESS complex! Way LESS complex...

Mt 11:28-30
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

Mt 18:2-3
And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

Beautiful and powerful scriptures that show the love of God for humanity and His mercy and grace. I especially love Matt 11:28-30 because there is indeed rest in Christ for our souls .. especially rest from our works.

sonbeam

[mark s]

So that this was another way these 11 men were unique in history, having been born again (I would suppose) but not yet part of the body of Christ (again I would suppose), which was not begun until they all received the Holy Spirit.

I'm thinking this was a special anointing for service prior to the fulfillment of Joel and the gifts of the Spirit at Pentecost. Throughout the OT the Holy Spirit was poured out at various times for special/specific ministry or service; i.e. Samson, Joshua, Gideon, Elijah, Elisha, etc. These were, after all, not necessarily brave, powerful men who were ready to venture out on their own without Jesus by their side. The anointing for that service prepared them to preach the forgiveness of sins until they were clothed with power from on High. That power brought with it signs and wonders.

Hi Abiding,

I think that could be also.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

So that this was another way these 11 men were unique in history, having been born again (I would suppose) but not yet part of the body of Christ (again I would suppose), which was not begun until they all received the Holy Spirit.

I'm thinking this was a special anointing for service prior to the fulfillment of Joel and the gifts of the Spirit at Pentecost. Throughout the OT the Holy Spirit was poured out at various times for special/specific ministry or service; i.e. Samson, Joshua, Gideon, Elijah, Elisha, etc. These were, after all, not necessarily brave, powerful men who were ready to venture out on their own without Jesus by their side. The anointing for that service prepared them to preach the forgiveness of sins until they were clothed with power from on High. That power brought with it signs and wonders.

Hi Abiding,

I think that could be also.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Ditto!

[BeTheMoon]

Sonbeam, are you saying that people before Christ could be born again?

[Sonbeam]

Sonbeam, are you saying that people before Christ could be born again?

Yes BTM. But this is not my idea. Christ said it in John 3. And Paul talks about this in Romans when he speaks about
Abraham in Chap 4.

Also when he says in 1 Cor 15:50,
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

What Paul is saying here is that the offspring of Adam (flesh and blood) born with a sinful nature have to be born again of the Spirit (of the generation of Christ).

And Christ also implies that He has other sheep already (those already born again) when he says in John 10:16:

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

[BeTheMoon]

Sonbeam, are you saying that people before Christ could be born again?

Yes BTM. But this is not my idea. Christ said it in John 3. And Paul talks about this in Romans when he speaks about
Abraham in Chap 4.

John 3... what verse? Romans 4... what verse?

I read John 3 and see Jesus being lifted up on the cross (as Moses lifted the serpent) that whosever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (vs 14-15). We know that He was lifted up on the cross at His death.

I read Romans 4 and see Abraham did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief (vs 20).

Also when he says in 1 Cor 15:50,
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

What Paul is saying here is that the offspring of Adam (flesh and blood) born with a sinful nature have to be born again of the Spirit (of the generation of Christ).

Rather than stop at vs 50 and make a conclusion, I suggest further reading...

1 Cor 15:52-55
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"

It's the glorified bodies of the saints. The corruptible (flesh) must put on incorruption (glorified bodies).

And Christ also implies that He has other sheep already (those already born again) when he says in John 10:16:

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Already born again? Before Jesus was lifted up on the cross?

Speaking to Jews, Jesus was speaking of the Gentiles, "those not of this fold (Jews)".

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

[Sonbeam]

Sonbeam, are you saying that people before Christ could be born again?

Yes BTM. But this is not my idea. Christ said it in John 3. And Paul talks about this in Romans when he speaks about
Abraham in Chap 4.

John 3... what verse?

Here it is once again for those still interested. You and I BTM must agree to disagree on this. The two births Jesus is speaking here are the basic bedrock of the salvation process so if we interpret this differently, and you and I definitely do, then we must move on.

But I really appreciate your continued engagement in this discussion BTM.

John 3:1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.

[Romans 4... what verse?

Actually the whole chapter 4, but here are some verses:

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

[/quote]

sonbeam

[mark s]

I've always understood born of water to refer to human birth.

For what it's worth . . .

[BeTheMoon]

Interesting. Sonbeam, by any chance are you Roman Catholic or Lutheran?

[Sonbeam]

Interesting. Sonbeam, by any chance are you Roman Catholic or Lutheran?

No BTM. I am a Christian.

Though my family and I did attend an evangelical Lutheran church a few years ago. And many, many years ago, a Pentecostal church and a nondenominational charismatic church. And for the last few years, we've been going to Baptist churches.

[Sonbeam]

I've always understood born of water to refer to human birth.

For what it's worth . . .

Yes, I’ve heard many believers say that too Mark. But I don’t think this is what the birth of water means.

Because when Nicodemus took Jesus’ words literally as having to be physically reborn again, Jesus’ response in John 3:6, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, ….” Even if physically being reborn again were even possible, I understand His response to mean that flesh only procreates more flesh, that is, a sinful nature.

I believe Ezekiel 36:24-26 shows there are two steps involved in being born again, and that God executes both:

“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean;

I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

[BeTheMoon]

Interesting. Sonbeam, by any chance are you Roman Catholic or Lutheran?

No BTM. I am a Christian.

Whew. Forgive me if the question seemed offensive. I know some R.Catholics who also mention 2 births.

[BeTheMoon]

So, you say water and Spirit are two separate transactions. Why not just one transaction (as in emerging from water with the Spirit)?

John 7:37-39
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

"If anyone thirsts"- just like the woman at the well.

[Sonbeam]

Interesting. Sonbeam, by any chance are you Roman Catholic or Lutheran?

No BTM. I am a Christian.

Whew. Forgive me if the question seemed offensive. I know some R.Catholics who also mention 2 births.

No I didn’t find your question offensive at all BTM.

My answer was just my way of saying that I don’t identify myself by any denominational label.
I would have answered your question the same way if you had asked if I was a Baptist or a Methodist.


So I apologize to our Catholic and Lutheran brothers and sisters who participate in this forum if my answer to BTM's question appeared or seemed to be anything other than what I’ve explained above.

sonbeam

[BeTheMoon]

Brothers and sisters? Catholicism is a cult. Just like mormonism, jehovahs witnesses, etc.

I suspect you disagree with me though.