The Rebellion

[keithareilly]

Thessalonians 2: 1-8
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,[a] 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed, the son of destruction,[c] 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming

For some years now I have thought the rebellion to be the Revolutionary War which took place throughout the world where the people rose up and overthrew the monarchs establishing democracies and republics whereby the people could make their own laws and follow whom they choose.

Any thoughts on this?

keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Any thoughts on this?

I have a thought on that.

I'm guessing you're quoting from the ESV since that's the only version I find that interprets the word "apostasia" as rebellion. That explains your association with a military or political event/tone rather than a spiritual "falling away"(from the faith) or "forsaking the truth."

[keithareilly]

Not the only reason. Apostasia means "turning from a position or stand" the only other time in the new testament it is used in in Acts 21:21 with regards to turning from the teachings of Moses. From the Pharisees perspective this would be rebellion against authority, theirs and God's. I have not found any Greek historical reason to think it had religious connotation when it was used; that seems to have evolved over time.

Another reason I think secular perspective is reasonable is because of how widespread the "apostasia" must be for the son of perdition to take rule from what is now both Muslim, Jewish, and Christian holy ground. It would require a person who appeals to all faiths as a leader of all religions. He would also appeal to atheists as he would place himself above all gods as atheism places man above everything. His wide spread appeal would not be limited to Christianity. Furthermore, the son of perdition's appeal to the masses would be as a ruler over men.

While this may be a spiritual change it nevertheless represents a very great a political change. People would have to be able to be led by this leader in this world. This means he has authority for government and would have be granted that authority by nations and peoples. This authority would have to trump any resistance from Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Thus it is a huge movement involving tremendous worldly powers.

Also, there has not been a Christian Theocracy on the planet since the fall of the Holy Roman Empire which occurred during the Revolutionary War in 1806. While the Vatican might be considered an exception, it is mostly a "spiritual" ruler of Roman Catholicism without secular authority outside its city.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness

These verses indicate it is the wicked, a majority on the planet, who will empower the son of perdition. The wicked will need to leave behind there existing secular authorities to empower the son of perdition to rule them. This implies people will have a choice in leadership. They will choose the son of perdition as their leader. This could not have happened until the Revolutionary War overthrew monarchies, which imposed power over their "subjects".

So, the son of perdition must have sufficient backing to trump Jewish, Muslim, and Christian objections to ruling from the Temple Mount. From the perspective of Christianity, The Revolutionary War overthrew the powers God had setup as authorities over the people. Thus the Revolutionary War was also a spiritual turning away, an "Apostasia", rejecting that God ruled from on high through monarchies and insisting the power rested not with God on High, but with the people as God had made all men equal. As Christ is our King, Christians still recognize we are under the rule of a monarchy. This conflicts with the ideas of the Revolutionary War which insists people have the authority not a monarch.


Sorry about the ramble, this idea has been rolling around in my head for a while and I need to bring it into focus and quantify it.

Keith

[Jay Ross]

Concerning the rebellion;

It is my understanding that there are two rebellions, the first one will occur in the near future when the kings of the earth and their armies assemble at Armageddon to go up against Jerusalem to trample the Sanctuary of the temple area when they will be judged and dispatched into the Bottomless pit to await their finial judgement punishment. At the same time the fallen heavenly host will be judged in heaven and they too will be dispatched into the bottomless where they will be imprisoned for 1,000 years. Satan is also locked up in the bottomless pit at this time as well.

After the fallen heavenly hosts lose their respective dominions over the peoples of the earth, the Son of man will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him. With the end of the 2,300 year period of the Gentile heathens trampling the sanctuary, all of Israel will be saved and the covenant of the nation of priests will be renewed with the nation of Israel once more.

After the 1,000 years of "peace" on the earth, Satan and the fallen heaven hosts as well as the scorpion army will be released to once more oppress the peoples of the earth and there will be a great falling away, i.e. a rebellion of the peoples of the earth when they enter into a solemn seven year covenant with Satan and they will march over the face of the earth as they circle Jerusalem to attack it in a final battle before the time of the day of the Lord when the judgement comes for the earth and all the people and heavenly hosts etc. on the great day of the Lord.

At this point in time all of our enemies will become a footstool for Christ and we the Saint will enter into our inheritance.

Shalom

Jay Ross.

[shorttribber]

Also, there has not been a Christian Theocracy on the planet since the fall of the Holy Roman Empire which occurred during the Revolutionary War in 1806.

As a result of the Revolutionary War, is your meaning is right, rather than During?
The War occurred between 1775 and 1783.

[mark s]

I don't have the references handy, but when I was studying this word, I found that it was used for both spiritual and political rebellion in the Septuagint.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I don't have the references handy, but when I was studying this word, I found that it was used for both spiritual and political rebellion in the Septuagint.

That may be, although not one of the eight commentaries available to me mention it in the political sense. Strong's, Thayers, and NASEC define apostasy only in the sense of defecting or abandoning the faith. If we look at the context, I find the whole of 2 Thess. is of a spiritual nature along with spiritual admonitions regarding holding fast to the gospel.

Gotta trust the scholars once in awhile....

ETA: I don't remember reading anything negative in the NT regarding government, political issues, civil laws, etc. The thrust of much of Paul's epistles is warning against deceptive teachings, holding fast to the truth as they've been taught, and running with endurance even in times of persecution.

[keithareilly]

Shorttribber wrote

As a result of the Revolutionary War, is your meaning is right, rather than During?
The War occurred between 1775 and 1783.

That would be the just the American Revolutionary War or the American War of Independence.

The Revolutionary War was a movement that spanned continents; it included the French and Russian Revolutions.

Keith

[shorttribber]

I don't have the references handy, but when I was studying this word, I found that it was used for both spiritual and political rebellion in the Septuagint.

That may be, although not one of the eight commentaries available to me mention it in the political sense. Strong's, Thayers, and NASEC define apostasy only in the sense of defecting or abandoning the faith. If we look at the context, I find the whole of 2 Thess. is of a spiritual nature along with spiritual admonitions regarding holding fast to the gospel.

Gotta trust the scholars once in awhile....

ETA: I don't remember reading anything negative in the NT regarding government, political issues, civil laws, etc. The thrust of much of Paul's epistles is warning against deceptive teachings, holding fast to the truth as they've been taught, and running with endurance even in times of persecution.

"Context" is absolutely the Essential Ingredient Abiding, I must agree. And no amount of "Process of time" causing a deviation from the original intended meaning is really evident I don't think.

[shorttribber]

Shorttribber wrote

As a result of the Revolutionary War, is your meaning is right, rather than During?
The War occurred between 1775 and 1783.

That would be the just the American Revolutionary War or the American War of Independence.

The Revolutionary War was a movement that spanned continents; it included the French and Russian Revolutions.

Keith

Oh, ok...I got it now...thanx for helping me out on that

[Abiding in His Word]

Correction: Robertson's Word Picture commentary does say this:

Plutarch uses it of political revolt and it occurs in 1 Maccabees 2:15 about Antiochus Epiphanes who was enforcing the apostasy from Judaism to Hellenism.

Even so, the apostasy or defection from Judaism to Hellenism relates to a spiritual falling away from the faith.

Just a little detour...I read that Antiochus "formal" name was Antiochus IV. He gave himself the title of "Epiphanes" to reflect his belief that he was the human ephiphany or manifestation of Zeus, the high god of the Greeks. Thought that was interesting.

[mark s]

I don't have the references handy, but when I was studying this word, I found that it was used for both spiritual and political rebellion in the Septuagint.

That may be, although not one of the eight commentaries available to me mention it in the political sense. Strong's, Thayers, and NASEC define apostasy only in the sense of defecting or abandoning the faith. If we look at the context, I find the whole of 2 Thess. is of a spiritual nature along with spiritual admonitions regarding holding fast to the gospel.

Gotta trust the scholars once in awhile....

ETA: I don't remember reading anything negative in the NT regarding government, political issues, civil laws, etc. The thrust of much of Paul's epistles is warning against deceptive teachings, holding fast to the truth as they've been taught, and running with endurance even in times of persecution.

Hi Abiding,

Apostao, the root, is to depart ("away from standing"). The one other use in the NT is depart from Moses (Acts). I agree with you, it's primarily thought of in a spiritual way. I just mention the LXX as it relates to the Jewish use of the word 250 years before Jesus was born. In that translation, apostasia was used for rebellion against a king, in one instance that I recall. It seems there were others, but my notes on this are at home, where I am not.



Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

BTW . . . I don't see the use in Thess as a political rebellion. I see it as either spiritual rebellion, or departure, which is the classical meaning of the word. I think there is a reasonable argument to be made in that direction, though I would not be dogmatic about it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I just mention the LXX as it relates to the Jewish use of the word 250 years before Jesus was born. In that translation, apostasia was used for rebellion against a king, in one instance that I recall.

That was most likely the Maccabean revolt the effort to get the Jews to sacrifice to pagan gods under Antiochus Ephiphanes which is what I'm reading about now. He descrecated the temple by seating himself in it as god and sacrificed a pig if I remember correctly. That's what led to the revolt by the Jews. Antiochus died in 163 A.D but later Pompey entered the Holy of Holies in the temple so there was considerable political upheavals during that period.

[mark s]

I just mention the LXX as it relates to the Jewish use of the word 250 years before Jesus was born. In that translation, apostasia was used for rebellion against a king, in one instance that I recall.

That was most likely the Maccabean revolt the effort to get the Jews to sacrifice to pagan gods under Antiochus Ephiphanes which is what I'm reading about now. He descrecated the temple by seating himself in it as god and sacrificed a pig if I remember correctly. That's what led to the revolt by the Jews. Antiochus died in 163 A.D but later Pompey entered the Holy of Holies in the temple so there was considerable political upheavals during that period.

That was after the OT, this had to do with a different king, I'll need to look it up. I have a whole list of every place this word appears in the LXX. Maybe I'll be able to post it tonight.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Antiochus died in 163 A.D

Oh good grief...I meant 163 B.C.

[shorttribber]

gotta luv those little cartoony thingies when ya need'm

[Abiding in His Word]

gotta luv those little cartoony thingies when ya need'm

Yes, they make a statement all of their own, don't they?

[keithareilly]

Romans 13:1-2a
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed


The Revolutionary War saw numerous peoples reject the above verses, rise up, and overthrow authorities.
Thus was The Revolutionary War apostasy manifest.

How is this understanding wrong?

Keith

[Jericho]

Romans 13:1-2a
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed


The Revolutionary War saw numerous peoples reject the above verses, rise up, and overthrow authorities.
Thus was The Revolutionary War apostasy manifest.

How is this understanding wrong?

Keith

My thoughts on the matter viewtopic.php?f=18&t=70560&p=583869&hilit=Romans+13#p583869

[keithareilly]

Jericho,

The Revolutionary War was not a matter of civil disobedience. What makes the Revolutionary War the Revolutionary War is the overthrowing of Divine Right; the Revolutionary War ideals are: rulers rule by the will of the people not by the will of God. The Revolutionary War is a great apostasy.


Coincidentally, the Guillotine was invented during the Revolutionary Way and thousands were beheaded.

Keith

[Jericho]

What makes the Revolutionary War the Revolutionary War is the overthrowing of Divine Right; the Revolutionary War ideals are: rulers rule by the will of the people not by the will of God. The Revolutionary War is a great apostasy.

How is that any different from any nation on earth? Apart from ancient Israel, there has never been a nation that has been ruled by the will of God. All governments are ruled by men, rather it be a dictatorship or a republic. So if the United States is guilty of apostasy so is every other nation. We are living in a time of human government. One day God will rule the nations, but that time is not yet.

[keithareilly]

Jericho,

Men historically claimed their right to rule by claiming association or lineage with a god or some recognized authority over men. Once upon a thrown they would often claim to be some kind of god. Such claims were made because the masses thought of themselves as subjects, always at the whims of powers greater than themselves. This still happens today. Iranian leader Ahmadinejad claimed lineage with Cyrus the Great to emphasize he had authority to rule. Pre World War II, the emperor of Japan claimed to be a god. These claims were necessary because the people recognize a god as a higher authority, any god as higher authority.

The Revolutionary War ideals claim man is the highest authority. It is men who grant the right to rule not a higher power or authority. The ideals of the Revolutionary War exalt man above all gods and authorities.

Note Ahmadinejad's claims. They are of great interest. In a two power system such as Iran where there is both elections and a theocracy, Ahmadinejad's claim to be descendent of a previous Iranian authority such, as Cyrus the Great, appealed to those who elect their leaders and also recognize a god. England is another such two legged power system, there is the monarchy, and the prime minister. The son of perdition will claim authority from both legs to achieve ruling power over both legs. He may be elected while also claiming to be a higher authority than monarchs.

Keith

[Jericho]

The Revolutionary War ideals claim man is the highest authority. It is men who grant the right to rule not a higher power or authority. The ideals of the Revolutionary War exalt man above all gods and authorities.

Again, this is no different from any other nation on earth. While theocracies claim to be governing on God's behalf they too govern by man's rule. God's system is not a theocracy, with man governing on god's behalf, but God governing directly.

What distinguishes the U.S. is as an acknowledgement of God, which is a rarity among nations. Believing that our inalienable rights come from God and not man, does in fact exalt God's will above mans. If you study the founding of America it does have many parallels with ancient Israel. Here's a few interesting facts if you are interested http://www.jewishpathways.com/jewish-hi ... ng-america

[keithareilly]

Jericho,

As I said in my first post to you, the Revolutionary War is not synonymous with the American Revolution. There is no need to defend the USA in this thread, I am not attacking it. Neither is thread about how God rules.

This thread is about: Does the Revolutionary War fit the description of the Rebellion (Apostasy) in 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed, the son of destruction,[c] 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

The son of perdition will exalt himself above all objects of worship, claiming to be God. The environment required for him to rule does not eliminate God else there would be no need for him to claim to be God.

What I am say is the Revolutionary War left us with an environment ripe for the son of perdition.
The change wrought by the war is in the ideals among the masses of peoples from pre and post Revolutionary War.


Yes, without the consent of the governed, even a totalitarianism state cannot rule. What has changed is the hearts of the masses of peoples through there acceptance that even a totalitarian state cannot rule without their consent, not God's consent, their consent. This is the change brought about by the Revolutionary War.

Ask this question of the masses: "Except for God, if there is one, is there anything on earth worthy of worship greater than man?" I think you will find the answer to this question is "No". This is because there are no longer other objects worthy of worship in man's eyes.


Keith

[keithareilly]

Jericho,


Let my try it this way...

The change brought about by the Revolutionary War is:
We, the masses, no longer consider ourselves subjects of authority but citizens with authority.

This is a substantial change among masses of peoples throughout the planet.
Does a movement that changes the masses across the plant from subjects to citizens fits the description of Apostasy found in 2 Thessalonians 2.
Why or Why not?

Keith

[Jericho]

Keith, sorry if I strayed off topic. I have not been following the thread too closely. As for 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, is "rebellion" the best translation? It seems there are at least three candidates for apostasia: falling away, rebellion, and departing. According to the Lidell & Scott Greek Lexicon, apostasia is defined first as a defection or revolt, then secondly as departure or disappearance.

Just assuming for a moment that it does mean "rebellion", it might be a stretch to tie it to all the revolutionary wars of the last couple hundred years. Man has been rebelling against God since Adam was kicked out of the garden. I suspect if "rebellion" is the correct translation it probably refers to something directly preceding the Anti-Christ.

[keithareilly]

Jericho wrote

if "rebellion" is the correct translation it probably refers to something directly preceding the Anti-Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2 does say the Apostasy is a precursor to the appearance of the Son of Perdition.

The Revolutionary War was a movement spanning continents. A "movement" denying Divine Right , changing the position of the masses from subjects without authority to citizens with authority, and resulting in revolts overthrowing rulers fits the definition of Apostasy quite well.

Keith

[Jericho]

A "movement" denying Divine Right , changing the position of the masses from subjects without authority to citizens with authority, and resulting in revolts overthrowing rulers fits the definition of Apostasy quite well.

We have been overthrowing rulers since human governments began, it didn't start with the French Revolution. Although the so-called Age of Enlightenment did begin a shift in man's thinking away from God and more toward man. This laid the groundwork for atheism, humanism, deism, evolution, Marxism, etc. that followed.

[Abiding in His Word]

I found something interesting today that brought me back to this topic and the word apostasy.

While reading about divorce in:

Matt. 5:31, I noticed the word "divorce" with the G647 meaning. apostasion; from G868; a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce: - certificate of divorce (1), divorce (2).

2 Thes. 2:3, the word "apostasy" with the G646 meaning. apostasia - Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Nearly the same meaning with a slightly different nuance. Thoughts?

[shorttribber]

We have been overthrowing rulers since human governments began, it didn't start with the French Revolution. Although the so-called Age of Entanglement did begin a shift in man's thinking away from God and more toward man. This laid the groundwork for atheism, humanism, deism, evolution, Marxism, etc. that followed.

"Age of Enlightenment" was intended, but I guess it could have been just as easily described by the word "Entanglement".

I found something interesting today that brought me back to this topic and the word apostasy.

While reading about divorce in:

Matt. 5:31, I noticed the word "divorce" with the G647 meaning. apostasion; from G868; a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce: - certificate of divorce (1), divorce (2).

2 Thes. 2:3, the word "apostasy" with the G646 meaning. apostasia - Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Nearly the same meaning with a slightly different nuance. Thoughts?

And I do believe that the true meaning of the word Is best described as "A Forsaking"

[Jay Ross]

An interesting thought, but was Jesus only talking about a marriage relationship here or was he making another point concerning relationships. Here is the passage below.

Matthew 5:31-32: – "It was said, 'Whoever divorces {NT:630 - to free fully - relieve, release, dismiss} his wife must give her a legal document.'{NT:647 - to properly separate from i.e. a written divorce.} But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The NET Bible is suggesting that verse 31 above is a direct quote from Deuteronomy 24:1 which is shown below: -

Deuteronomy 24:1-4: - If a man marries a woman and she does not please him because he has found something offensive in her, then he may draw up a divorce document, give it to her, and evict her from his house. When she has left him she may go and become someone else's wife. If the second husband rejects her and then divorces her, gives her the papers, and evicts her from his house, or if the second husband who married her dies, her first husband who divorced her is not permitted to remarry her after she has become ritually impure, for that is offensive to the Lord. You must not bring guilt on the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

I wonder if there is something more revealing in these two passages concerning our relationship with God than meets the eye on a first glance.

Were do these passages leave God with respect to His relationship with his rebellious saints?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Abiding in His Word]

An interesting thought, but was Jesus only talking about a marriage relationship here or was he making another point concerning relationships.

I wonder if there is something more revealing in these two passages concerning our relationship with God than meets the eye on a first glance.

Were do these passages leave God with respect to His relationship with his rebellious saints?

Jay, I don't think our relationship with God is the primary focus of the chapter, but rather our relationship with others. Notice how He mentions the scribes and Pharisees and their perception of righteousness and tells us ours must be different than theirs was. I think the emphasis is on our relationships and those things which emanate from the heart. The heart is the source of sin.

Mar 7:21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

The Pharisees favored the law; Jesus was focusing on the law being written on the heart as prophesied by Jeremiah (31:33). Jesus' wanted recognized they had a hard heart and that's why they wanted to divorce their wives for any cause. Jesus called them hypocrites and said they honored Him with their lips but their heart was far away from Him.

I see Matt. 5 as being more about our treatment of others. Just how I see it....

[Jay Ross]

The first OT reference to circumcising our hearts: -

Deut 10:16: - Therefore, cleanse{/circumcise}(a) your heart and stop being so stubborn!(b)

Notes: - Deut 10:16 (a)
Heb "circumcise the foreskin of" (cf. KJV, ASV, NRSV). Reference to the Abrahamic covenant prompts Moses to recall the sign of that covenant, namely, physical circumcision (Gen 17:9-14). Just as that act signified total covenant obedience, so spiritual circumcision (cleansing of the heart) signifies more internally a commitment to be pliable and obedient to the will of God (cf. Deut 30:6; Jer 4:4; 9:26).

Deut 10:16 (b)
Deut 9:6: - Understand, therefore, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is about to give you this good land as a possession, for you are a stubborn people!(c)

Deut 9:6 (c)

c tn Heb "stiff-necked" (so KJV, NAB, NIV).

The Hebrew word translated stubborn means "stiff-necked." The image is that of a draft animal that is unsubmissive to the rein or yoke and refuses to bend its neck to draw the load. This is an apt description of OT Israel (Ex 32:9; 33:3, 5; 34:9; Deut 9:13).

The second OT reference to circumcising our hearts: -

Deut 30:1-10: -

1 "When you have experienced all these things, both the blessings and the curses I have set before you, you will reflect upon them in all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you. 2 Then if you and your descendants turn to the Lord your God and obey him with your whole mind and being just as I am commanding you today, 3 the Lord your God will reverse your captivity and have pity on you. He will turn and gather you from all the peoples among whom he has scattered you. 4 Even if your exiles are in the most distant land, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 Then he will bring you to the land your ancestors possessed and you also will possess it; he will do better for you and multiply you more than he did your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will also cleanse{/circumcise}(a) your heart and the hearts of your descendants so that you may love him {the Lord your God} with all your mind and being and so that you may live. 7 Then the Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies, on those who hate you and persecute you. 8 You will return and obey the Lord, keeping all his commandments I am giving you today. 9 The Lord your God will make the labor of your hands abundantly successful and multiply your children, the offspring of your cattle, and the produce of your soil. For the Lord your God will once more rejoice over you to make you prosperous just as he rejoiced over your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commandments and statutes that are written in this scroll of the law. But you must turn to him with your whole mind and being.

The third OT reference to circumcising our hearts: -

Jer 4:4: - Just as ritual circumcision cuts away the foreskin
as an external symbol of dedicated covenant commitment,
you must genuinely dedicate yourselves to the Lord
and get rid of everything that hinders your commitment to me,(a)
people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem.
If you do not, my anger will blaze up like a flaming fire against you
that no one will be able to extinguish.
That will happen because of the evil you have done."

Notes: - Jer 4:4 (a)

Heb "Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskin of your heart." The translation is again an attempt to bring out the meaning of a metaphor. The mention of the "foreskin of the heart" shows that the passage is obviously metaphorical and involves heart attitude, not an external rite.

The symbolism of circumcising the foreskin of our/{Israel's} hearts is very much what God will be looking for during the time of the two rebellions in our near and distant future.

While I agree with you that the Matt 5 chapter is about relationships with others, the underlying theme is also about our relationship with God.

I was simply raising the issue of the Grace that will be extended to the nation of Israel during the Battle at Armageddon which will occur in our near future. The acceptance of the terms of The Messiah, who will be seen afar off dealing with the rebellion of men on the face of the earth at this time, heralds in the time when God will honour His promise to bring/draw all of Israel back to the land of Promise to their ancestors.

Sorry I was not filling in all of the details with my previous post and the complications of the "LAW" with respect to remarrying a divorced wife.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Exit40]

Keith, I love the thoughts you come up with. The issue of rebellion, it is ongoing within every aspect of our humanity for all of out time in the corporal world. Yes we have rejected absolute rule by one authority, claiming we can in fact rule ourselves, and select our own government. Something our founders have said is, our form of government can not be successful of we do not govern ourselves according to the Laws God has given us to go by. A Chinese man, here in the US for study, was asked upon returning to his own land what he found most remarkable about our Republic. The man stated that we do in fact govern ourselves according to our Laws God has given us, by religious standards of personal behavior, within the bounds of our Republican law. OK, one mans opinion, but seen from an outsiders position, and that of a man ruled and subjected by his own government. So the theme is, since the Revolution in the Western world, man is capable of governing himself, something like the ancient Hebrews did with God directly advising the people. However, the people wanted a king, so they got one, and as time has gone on this entire human process is revealing the true nature of man, which is sinful, though we collectively cannot see this. We are subject to sin, and are still seeking a king to govern us because not all of us on on the same page, and desire to govern ourselves within that condition claiming we are capable, yet as time goes on we reject, rebel, more and more into moral decline even, the laws God has given us to rule ourselves by, even to state His natural order can be subverted by man's natural order, being better than Gods, if He even exists, to some extent.

I am in a bit of a ramble myself, sorry. This is all about our relationship to God, and to each other. That is all there is, and within each of us individuals is the battle between good and evil, collectively representing 'man'. Good is we love God above all else as He desires, and each other as He desires us to. Bad is rebelling against God's order and Law for us, and hating each other for reasons we make up, sans Gods desire for us. That is simply put. Rebelling is continuous and reaches a culmination at some point in time, where the majority of people accept a god man, one that not only accepts our sinful condition but revels in it to replace God Our Father, and then rewrites laws and times to suit our humanity and desire to govern ourselves as we want. Not all will do so, therefore a great tribulation will occur in an attempt to force the rejection of God. Keep in mind, after the trib is over, we are not to go looking for Christ, as He is not here yet, His human replacement will be on the scene, having appeared as a result of rebellion against God Himself. Out of the middle of all this he will become what we think we need, what we desire, to replace God. A god-man-king, one that governs according to mans desires. Sorry for the ramble, this is so simple, and complicated at the same time, I can barely grasp the whole of it myself, in order to explain it.

God Bless You

David

[keithareilly]

I found something interesting today that brought me back to this topic and the word apostasy.

While reading about divorce in:

Matt. 5:31, I noticed the word "divorce" with the G647 meaning. apostasion; from G868; a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce: - certificate of divorce (1), divorce (2).

2 Thes. 2:3, the word "apostasy" with the G646 meaning. apostasia - Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Nearly the same meaning with a slightly different nuance. Thoughts?

During Revolutionary War, one country actually provided a writ of apostasy (divorce) to their ruler.
It began like this...

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. ...

Keith

[GodsStudent]

I found something interesting today that brought me back to this topic and the word apostasy.

While reading about divorce in:

Matt. 5:31, I noticed the word "divorce" with the G647 meaning. apostasion; from G868; a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce: - certificate of divorce (1), divorce (2).

2 Thes. 2:3, the word "apostasy" with the G646 meaning. apostasia - Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

Nearly the same meaning with a slightly different nuance. Thoughts?

Interestingly, I looked at divorce this week as found in scripture. I don't see it here, so I'll note that God divorces Israel in Jeremiah 3. The entire subject of divorce, as found in scripture, is interesting, indeed. This might rub people hard, as it rubbed me hard, but I found a fantastic article in my research this week, so in speaking on the subject, I'll post it here, as it does a good job on elaborating on the subject of biblical divorce.
http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_divorce.html

[Abiding in His Word]

GodsStudent, the focus of this thread is the verse in Thess. regarding the word apostasy and it's intended meaning. My post mentioning divorce was in an effort to clarify the meaning of apostasy as I see it.

Perhaps you should start a new thread if you want to discuss divorce in marriage as that topic will change the focus of this one. And probably it will never return.....

[Resurrection Torchlight]

BTW . . . I don't see the use in Thess as a political rebellion. I see it as either spiritual rebellion, or departure, which is the classical meaning of the word. I think there is a reasonable argument to be made in that direction, though I would not be dogmatic about it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark,

I would be very interested in hearing more about your research concerning "departure" as the classical meaning of the word.

RT

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

Do you think the Declaration of Independence constitutes a writ of Apostasy between peoples as a writ of divorce constitutes Apostasy between husband and wife ?

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Do you think the Declaration of Independence constitutes a writ of Apostasy between peoples as a writ of divorce constitutes Apostasy between husband and wife ?

Good comparison, Keith. Except one is a personal separation and the other is a political one. I don't see Paul referring to a military or political separation from a King that would happen some 1800 yrs. later, do you?

Paul's focus is on the last days or day of the Lord and a falling away from the faith. He alludes to that many times in his epistles. Here's just a few:

2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him....2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first

1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons...

2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2Tim 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come....2Tim 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

2Pe 2:1-2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned...

Following his conversion, Paul no longer considered his military position as a Roman as his priority. His focus was on the faith, witnessing to the Jews and Gentiles, and warning about false teachings/ers.

That's the context I see the word apostasy, but I'm aware of the many different opinions so I'm not sure we'll know for certain so I understand how you see it differently.

[shorttribber]

Mathew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And I think these verses also confirm the texts Abiding has already provided, and that A "Departure From the Gospel of Christ" is what the word "Apostasy" speaks most Certainly of in 2 Thes.

[extravagantchristian]

Mathew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And I think these verses also confirm the texts Abiding has already provided, and that A "Departure From the Gospel of Christ" is what the word "Apostasy" speaks most Certainly of in 2 Thes.

I agree. The rebellion that Jesus spoke about includes false prophets working signs and wonders. We haven't seen that happen yet. We've seen plenty of false prophets but no signs and wonders yet. They will deceive many, causing them to persecute the church. That is the coming rebellion against the word of God.

[keithareilly]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed, the son of destruction,[c] 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.


I think it is a mistake to separate things of faith from political events. This entire website is about faith and world events including politics. Gay marriage is a huge issue of faith, but it is also a political event. The son of perdition is an issue of faith but he will be a ruler which is a political event.

Why do you think the apostasy, which precedes the son of perdition, is not likely to be a political event?

Keith

[keithareilly]

Mathew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And I think these verses also confirm the texts Abiding has already provided, and that A "Departure From the Gospel of Christ" is what the word "Apostasy" speaks most Certainly of in 2 Thes.

No where do these verses limit themselves to believers. These verses describe the world and the populous at large.
These verse are geopolitical.

keith

[Abiding in His Word]

I think you are mistaken by separating things of faith from political events.

Keith, I don't think I would always separate things of faith from political events. I just don't see that as Paul's message in 2 Thess. 2.

If you do, what political event do you think he's referencing? You've mentioned the Revolutionary war, but that's a stretch for an 1800 yr. prophecy, isn't it?

This entire website is about world events including politics.

It's true that Herb's theory was based on geo-political events and leaders seemingly coming together. But his perspective was based on solid, rather than speculative events. When it didn't appear that those particular events were coming to fruition as anticipated, Holly posted a very good trajectory for the board which can continue to look at political issues, but they should be concrete rather than speculative.

Watch for the major, concrete signs God has given us – like a strengthened covenant and the appearance of the abomination of desolation – rather than more nebulous and speculative signs, like an increase in the frequency of earthquakes or famines.

Gay marriage is a huge issue of faith, but it is also a political event.

Do you think the recent ruling about gay marriage will cause Christians to fall away from their faith? Or do you think it might strengthen their faith as they see sin increasing and being legitimized as legal?

The son of perdition is an issue of faith but he will be a ruler which is a political event.

But Paul gives us red flags to watch for regarding this person so we will recognize him. If we see a ruler exalt himself by seating himself in a temple as Antiochus Ephiphanes, Pompey, or Caligula did, that would be a solid marker and pretty good evidence that he might be the one Paul spoke of.

The apostasy, which precedes the son of perdition, is very well likely to be a political event.

Again, what political event do you think might cause a falling away of believers from the faith?

Your vote or refusal to vote in an election is an expression of your faith.

Voting is the right of citizenship afforded by the Constitution. There is no requirement that I know of that this right must be exercised as an expression of one's faith

The idea that faith and politics are separate is just wrong. The biggest apostasy on the planet right now is the constant removal of godly faith from politics via the Separation of Church and State interpretations by the courts. We all know this is not what the founding fathers wanted. Yet, the faith of the ungodly are winning the political system removing the faith of the godly from it.

Do you see those things causing the faithful to abandon their faith? Or are they stepping up and bravely voicing their disapproval? Remember when Paul visited Ephesus and the people were angry because he said that gods made with human hands were not gods at all? He always challenged those who believed in pagan gods. He was vocal as was Jesus and so are we. It may not change things, but I can't see it causing Christians to lose their faith in favor of some political event.

I can see believers losing their faith over false teachings and that's where Holly evidently sees the greater danger in the last days.

Separation of faith and politics cannot exist anymore than faith can be alive without works.

Prior to the Revolutionary War, most governments recognized one or more gods. The British Monarch, even today, is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. Because faith without works is dead, there can be no separation of faith from politics and world event.

Good works flow naturally from the life of a believer. Undefiled religion expresses itself in caring for widows, orphans, and keeping oneself unstained by the world. James 1:27 The fruit of the spirit is evidence of a believer and I can't see how this is affected by politics.

[shorttribber]

Mathew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And I think these verses also confirm the texts Abiding has already provided, and that A "Departure From the Gospel of Christ" is what the word "Apostasy" speaks most Certainly of in 2 Thes.

No where do these verses limit themselves to believers. These verses describe the world and the populous at large.
These verse are geopolitical.

keith

This verse...
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Does Immediately precede the verses that you're saying is not Strictly Limited to Believers Only. Why would Unbelievers " be hated of all nations for my (Christ's) name's sake?

Verses 9-13 Do Strictly Apply to Believers and not "the world and the populous at large", to me at least that is Very Clear.

[keithareilly]

Shorttribber wrote,

This verse...
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Who is the "they" at the beginning of the verse? Who shall kill you? When you answer those questions, you will know the verses are not talking about just believers.

The subject of this verse and prophesy is "they"
The verbs in this verse of prophesy are "deliver, kill, and hate"
The objects of the verse and prophesy are the believers.

The subject of the prophesy is "they". We believers are not the subject of this prophesy.

Keith

[shorttribber]

Shorttribber wrote,

This verse...
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Who is the "they" at the beginning of the verse? Who shall kill you? When you answer those questions, you will know the verses are not talking about just believers.

The subject of this verse and prophesy is "they"
The verbs in this verse of prophesy are "deliver, kill, and hate"
The objects of the verse and prophesy are the believers.

The subject of the prophesy is "they". We believers are not the subject of this prophesy.

Keith

Of course it is Unbelievers that will "Kill" Believers, that is not in question. What goes to the subject of "Apostasy" are these words....."then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The Result of the Fear of Being Killed by Unbelievers will Give Cause for "Many" to Fall Away.
And Be "Offended" and "Betray, and Hate one another"
The "Love" of "Many" Believers WILL wax cold.

Now, you're saying this applies to the Unbelievers as well as Christians.

There is something that you may have not considered that Could and Should change your opinion.

Below is a section of the text in question from the NIV version....
Matthew 24:10 (NIV) At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

The reason the NIV and literally scores of other translations have wording such as "turn away from the faith", is because that is exactly what the word "Offended", as it was used in this text, means.

Please look it up in Strongs or any good Lexicon.

That portion is just One reason for a reconsideration of your position that "Apostasy" from the Faith in Christ is Not what Our Lord was in fact describing.

There is yet another reason that any unbiased reader should find even more compelling.

And that reason is found in this little word, "Love".

if you look at the meaning of the word "Love" as used in the verse quoted above, you will find that it is Only Used as "The Love of God" Agape.
Please compare in the Strongs between Greek #25 and #26.
Number 26 is The Love OF God, and can Only be FROM the Spirit of God DIRECTLY........This kind of "Love" is not in USE by Unbelievers, it Does Not Exist, Nor Can it Exist in Unbelievers.
This is the Kind of "Love" that Christ SAID would Wax Cold.
And Brethren would "Betray" their Fellow Brethren.

And That is "Apostasy".....Because "Faith Works by Love".....Agape Love

[keithareilly]

Shorttribber and Abiding,

Matthew 10:9-14
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

I agree these verses apply to Christians, what I do not agree with is they are limited to Christians. Some verse are limited to believers for example verse 10. But note that the word apostasy is not used here. While falling away is the translation used for both, here the word used for falling away is describing only believers. The word used means cause to stumble. The word in Thessalonians means change of stance. The word in 2 Thessalonians 2 does not mean sin or stumbling as the word in Mathew 24:10 does mean sin or stumbling. These verses in Matthew are talking about falling away from the faith, sinning, stumbling. The verse in 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about a change of position, a change of foundation, a change of understanding. A change that does not imply sin or stumbling.

Second, only verse 10 says it is limited to believers. The false prophets that arise are going to lead believers astray and probably many others. The Agape love you described is not limited to Christians, the word was in existence prior to Christ's visitation and therefore, described love that was already known among the Greeks. There is plenty of reason to believe that this Agape love that was already known and still exists today even among unbelievers will wax cold for many believers and unbelievers alike. The one who endures to the end will be saved suggest believers and unbelievers alike. As a believer I am already saved enduring to the end to be saved is applicable for the non believer who choose Agape love. To say otherwise would rule out those who have God's laws written on their hearts but have not heard the Word. Thus when they hear the word preached throughout the world will they be saved.

Yes, much of these verses describe a world that causes stumbling and sin for the believer. But it is not limited to the believer, certainly the unbeliever will sin more so. Nevertheless, the word here used for falling away means stumbling and sin whereas the word in 2 Thessalonians means change of stance, change of foundation without implying sin or stumbling.

What I suspect might very well be true is the change in stance found in 2 Thessalonians 2 sets the stage to bring about the sin and stumbling found in Matthew 10.

Keith