Am I going to Hell?

[readyornot]

This is the question I was confronted with by my tearful wife a couple of nights ago. We've been married over 15 years and have three children, ages 2, 7 and 8. I've been saved since childhood and have been very serious about my faith all my life. However, I really messed up when I divorced my first wife, to whom I had been married over 14 years. Neither of us were sexually active outside our marriage. Although our marriage needed serious help and I should have continued to work on it, I chose to leave it, knowing at the time it was against God's will. It was the worst thing I have ever done and it shocked everyone who knew me. I will not go into all the discussion about how I did such a thing, but I did it. It was wrong and I knew it. I have always known it. Since leaving my first wife, I have come to grovelling tears many times since then before God. If I could go back and live that part of my life over, I would not have divorced her. It was so wrong with so many consequences, both for me and for others.

The other day, my current wife, who is a believer since before we married, stumbled across an article in Facebook where some pastor in NYC made the bold claim that anyone living in adultery is going to Hell. He based this on the fact that Jesus said divorcing and remarrying, with a couple of exceptions, is adultery. He then referred to 1 Cor. 6:9-10: "9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

She had never been confronted with this line of thinking. I have but never talked about it with her. Her relationship with God and church is tenuous anyway. I told her where I was on this. I know the Bible teaches you can't go back to a divorced wife after you have been with someone else, so I can't do that. The best way I know to truly repent and sin no more in this way, is to never, ever, no matter what leave or divorce my wife again, except now it is my second wife. I can't do that with my first wife. I admit it was adultery to marry her 15 years ago, but I am hoping God no longer sees it as adultery. I think my current wife now sees it that way, too, but she obviously did not in the early years of our marriage. This is her first and only marriage, btw. I don't want my wife or even myself to have any doubts about our salvation, no matter what other problems we may struggle with in this life. That should be our foundation, our unshakeable bedrock. But, now it is shaken. This pastor she read about would say our solution is to part ways and neither one ever marry again. So, to repent of leaving my first wife, I must now leave my second wife and three children, in order not to burn in Hell. And, my second wife is in the same burning boat.

She did find a wonderful post on the internet by some other pastor in England which was dated about four years ago, in which he clearly said it is a matter of sanctification in this life, not about salvation, regarding our second marriage. He did not debate that it was sin in the first place, but he said Christians who commit this sin do not go to hell for it. Grace covers all sins, even adultery committed by Christians. I get that, that's basic.

But here is the nagging part: Homosexuals living together or "married" are told to separate in order to repent. I myself have agreed with that many times and still do. Under no circumstances is a same sex marriage ever condoned by God. To me, their staying together indicates an unrepentant heart. So, are my wife and I in the same boat because we are continuing to stay married, therefore we are continually living in a state of unrepentant adultery? A brief search on the internet reveals there are apparently a scary number of people who believe that. And, please, I do not want this to devolve into a debate about homosexuality, but it is the example my wife put before me, wanting some consistency from me. I've gone to Bible college and used to be a leader in a church. I got excommunicated when I divorced my first wife and have never joined another church since. I agreed with that church discipline, btw, both then and now. My current wife did not, but she is not all that educated in biblical doctrines. Despite some problems she has with God, she does fully believe in His existence and fears Him. She also wants our kids to grow up right with Him, as do I. We have sporadically visited churches over the years, and are currently on hiatus. Not good, I know, it's another topic. We pray and teach our kids all the time though about God.

So, I have been reading and occasionally commenting here for years and have really grown to respect the level of scholarship and maturity that is on this site. Unfortunately, it's about all I have right now with no church. But, I want more than one man's opinion anyway. So, brothers and sisters, please respond. I don't want my wife to fear she is going to Hell for continuing to be married to me. My doubt about all this is very small, but it is not non-existant. I would like for it to be.
Respectfully,
Readyornot

[Mr Baldy]

Hi readyornot,

Divorce is NOT the unpardonable sin. God forgave you as soon as you went to Him in repentance. You cannot unscramble an egg.

Live the rest of your life serving the Lord with your current wife - and learn to forgive yourself, because God certainly has.

[shorttribber]

Hi readyornot,

Divorce is NOT the unpardonable sin. God forgave you as soon as you went to Him in repentance. You cannot unscramble an egg.

Live the rest of your life serving the Lord with your current wife - and learn to forgive yourself, because God certainly has.

[drdos]

[Abiding in His Word]

Divorce is NOT the unpardonable sin. God forgave you as soon as you went to Him in repentance. You cannot unscramble an egg.

Live the rest of your life serving the Lord with your current wife - and learn to forgive yourself, because God certainly has.

[Ready1]

Hi readyornot,

You have already received some advice, namely that divorce is not the unpardonable sin. And that is true, it is not. But your own writing has already demonstrated that your concern is much greater than a surface concern and that is what the church has struggled with throughout the ages concerning the issue of divorce and remarriage. I think that if I am hearing correctly, your real question is "Am I committing biblical adultery with a second spouse while I remain in this marriage?" Several other questions arise from this question.

1. If I stay in this marriage, which I knew to be wrong, can I be forgiven and remain married to my spouse?
2. If what I think that the scripture says is true, what do I need to do?
3. What about the wife I divorced? Where does she play into all this? What about our children?
4. What about my current wife? Where does she play into all this? What about our children?
5. What does God overlook/forgive?
6. If I ask God for forgiveness does that take care of it? (Mr. Baldy, shortribber, dr. dos, and Abiding would be in agreement with this point)

The universal church is not in agreement on this subject although the Western Church would largely hold to point No. 6, while the early NT Church would probably not be in agreement with it.

Let's look at just four scenarios and see what God's word says in each case.

HUSBAND divorces his wife and remarries:

Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery;

Mar 10:11 And He said to them, Whoever may dismiss his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery.

WIFE is divorced by husband and then remarries:

Mat 5:32 But I say to you, Whoever puts away his wife, apart from a matter of fornication, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever shall marry the one put away commits adultery.

WIFE divorces her husband and remarries:

Mar 10:12 And if a woman puts away her husband and marries another, she commits adultery

NEW WIFE: marries a husband who has divorced his wife.

Mar 10:11 And He said to them, Whoever may dismiss his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery.

NEW HUSBAND: marries a wife who was divorced by her husband.

Mat 5:32 But I say to you, Whoever puts away his wife, apart from a matter of fornication, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever shall marry the one put away commits adultery.

Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, if not for fornication, and shall marry another, that one commits adultery. And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery. And everyone marrying her who has been put away from a husband commits adultery.

Maybe I'll just throw these out to see what people are thinking.

[CorporalJohnny]

Some churches really get hung up on divorce, drinking, drugs, alcohol, and all the visible sins, and they say almost nothing about the hidden sins, lust, greed, arrogance, pride, etc.

God doesn't see your divorce anymore. Don't let the fruit inspectors and law masters of the church get to you. They are in the midst of a struggle too, albeit different from yours, but it's as much a struggle with sin as any tattoo covered, drug smoking, illicit sex having, foul mouthed individual is in.

For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;
as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
-Psalm 103:12

[CorporalJohnny]

Hi readyornot,

You have already received some advice, namely that divorce is not the unpardonable sin. And that is true, it is not. But your own writing has already demonstrated that your concern is much greater than a surface concern and that is what the church has struggled with throughout the ages concerning the issue of divorce and remarriage. I think that if I am hearing correctly, your real question is "Am I committing biblical adultery with a second spouse while I remain in this marriage?" Several other questions arise from this question.

1. If I stay in this marriage, which I knew to be wrong, can I be forgiven and remain married to my spouse?
2. If what I think that the scripture says is true, what do I need to do?
3. What about the wife I divorced? Where does she play into all this? What about our children?
4. What about my current wife? Where does she play into all this? What about our children?
5. What does God overlook/forgive?
6. If I ask God for forgiveness does that take care of it? (Mr. Baldy, shortribber, dr. dos, and Abiding would be in agreement with this point)

The universal church is not in agreement on this subject although the Western Church would largely hold to point No. 6, while the early NT Church would probably not be in agreement with it.

Let's look at just four scenarios and see what God's word says in each case.

HUSBAND divorces his wife and remarries:

Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery;

Mar 10:11 And He said to them, Whoever may dismiss his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery.

WIFE is divorced by husband and then remarries:

Mat 5:32 But I say to you, Whoever puts away his wife, apart from a matter of fornication, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever shall marry the one put away commits adultery.

WIFE divorces her husband and remarries:

Mar 10:12 And if a woman puts away her husband and marries another, she commits adultery

NEW WIFE: marries a husband who has divorced his wife.

Mar 10:11 And He said to them, Whoever may dismiss his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery.

NEW HUSBAND: marries a wife who was divorced by her husband.

Mat 5:32 But I say to you, Whoever puts away his wife, apart from a matter of fornication, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever shall marry the one put away commits adultery.

Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, if not for fornication, and shall marry another, that one commits adultery. And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery. And everyone marrying her who has been put away from a husband commits adultery.

Maybe I'll just throw these out to see what people are thinking.

Jesus was addressing those who lived and died by the Law. He was showing them that there is no way around it. If you live by the Law, you will die by the Law.

The Law said to stone adulterers, yet Christ did not pick up a stone, He asked a question. All those die hard Law experts slowly walked away because they realized, they were all guilty, and the Law saves no one, that it in fact condemns everyone. So yes, all these things are adultery, but it matters not, because we are saved by grace through faith, not the law that we have all violated.

[Abiding in His Word]

Excellent posts, CorporalJohnny.

And we should not forget that even the law provided mercy and justice. A certificate of divorce was provided because of the hardness of the hearts of those who were putting away their wives for any reason and marrying another. It became so common and prevalent that it necessitated boundaries to curb the practice. The writ of divorce provided a legal document to show the union was dissolved. The legal proof of dissolution allowed remarriage which we know, along with polygamy, had become very prevalent among the Jews.

God's mercy was evident in the law in many ways; i.e. treatment of slaves, consideration of the poor, exemption from the military so a husband could bring happiness to his wife, fair treatment of aliens in their land, distinction between intentional and unintentional sins, etc.

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[slick]

[1Corinthians 6:9, 11 NASB] 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, ...


11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

QUESTION: How Did They Become WERE?



THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!!

Clarence

[GodsStudent]

Great responses here. As I read, I was thinking if you live by keeping the law and just depart from one element of it, you have broken all of it, so if you've committed any other sin outside of Adultery, you are still a sinner. We all know Christ was the only man who lived that didn't sin, so we all fall into the same category as sinner. I was also mourning the thought that any would consider breaking up a home with three children in it, thinking this would be pleasing to the Lord. Don't let the devil come in and steal your peace from you...your sins were bought and paid for, so you have nothing but thanks and glory for Christ today...not the burden of going back and rehashing your old sins, things you've probably repented of a thousand times already.

True forgiveness is born out of true repentance and Christ told the lady to go and sin no more....I'd tell you the same.

[Jericho]

Hello readyornot. I’m certainly no expert on this subject, but I don’t believe it would be God's will for to leave your current wife and children, that would not be good for anyone. Yes it is never God's will for divorce, but things happen and people make mistakes. All you can do is repent and move on. Look at King David, he slept with another man's wife and then had her husband killed when he discovered she was pregnant. He paid for his sin by losing that child, but he repented and God told him “The LORD also has put away your sin”. He later married Bathsheba and their marriage was never condemned by God, and out of it one of the greatest kings of Israel was born.

You touched upon the subject of homosexuality, I believe that is another issue altogether and not even comparable to your situation because gay marriage and relationships were never part of God’s design. As for this pastor, I think anyone that causes such doubts and confusion about your salvation should be avoided. God is not the author of confusion but of peace. In the end the only unpardonable sin is not accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. So rest assured.

[readyornot]

I appreciate all the thoughtful responses and I welcome any others. The only snag for me is the fact that I wake up every morning still married to her so it seems like an "ongoing sin", which defies repentance in the traditional sense of stopping the sinful behavior. However, I agree with Mr. Baldy that you can't unscramble that egg. So, it does seem ludicrous to harm my current wife and children by doing the same thing, i.e. leaving them, that I did previously. It does not seem very corrective or healing to anyone. And, it would do no good for my first wife.

I have no qualms calling what I did sin and adultery. I just need to know that it no longer is. I suppose it changed from adultery to a "forgiven" marriage when I repented. It's just that in my mind, the only way I can repent in terms of changing the behavior, is not to ever do that again with my second wife. I only entertained this other viewpoint that I'm still committing adultery every day I stay married because the stakes are high, i.e. eternal destiny, and I don't want to be guilty of rationalizing instead of using scripture. He used scripture so I thought I should consider it, especially when it appears quite a few people believe this way. I do think unrepentant sin, especially that is well know and understood, is dangerous ground to be on. I don't want to be there. And by unrepentant, I mean no efforts are being made to stop it, one has just given in to it. Even a struggle to stop a chronic sin is OK, I think, but the attitude should be, "I'm working on this with God. I know it should change and I want it to change. I want to be right with God." I think these other people are using a status, i.e. "adultery", and translating that into daily sinful, unrepentant behavior. In other words, the very status of my current marriage makes me a daily sinner who is not repenting. I do have a hard time thinking God now sees my family as one huge sin that should not exist. I know He gave us our children and has blessed us in various ways over the years. I just don't think harming these little ones that He has given us to love is something Jesus would command me to do. Again, just trying to make sure from other godly people that I'm not rationalizing to trump scripture.
Thanks.

[drdos]

Hi readyornot,

You have already received some advice, namely that divorce is not the unpardonable sin. And that is true, it is not. But your own writing has already demonstrated that your concern is much greater than a surface concern and that is what the church has struggled with throughout the ages concerning the issue of divorce and remarriage. I think that if I am hearing correctly, your real question is "Am I committing biblical adultery with a second spouse while I remain in this marriage?" Several other questions arise from this question.

1. If I stay in this marriage, which I knew to be wrong, can I be forgiven and remain married to my spouse?
2. If what I think that the scripture says is true, what do I need to do?
3. What about the wife I divorced? Where does she play into all this? What about our children?
4. What about my current wife? Where does she play into all this? What about our children?
5. What does God overlook/forgive?
6. If I ask God for forgiveness does that take care of it? (Mr. Baldy, shortribber, dr. dos, and Abiding would be in agreement with this point)

The universal church is not in agreement on this subject although the Western Church would largely hold to point No. 6, while the early NT Church would probably not be in agreement with it.

Let's look at just four scenarios and see what God's word says in each case.

HUSBAND divorces his wife and remarries:

Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery;

Mar 10:11 And He said to them, Whoever may dismiss his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery.

WIFE is divorced by husband and then remarries:

Mat 5:32 But I say to you, Whoever puts away his wife, apart from a matter of fornication, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever shall marry the one put away commits adultery.

WIFE divorces her husband and remarries:

Mar 10:12 And if a woman puts away her husband and marries another, she commits adultery

NEW WIFE: marries a husband who has divorced his wife.

Mar 10:11 And He said to them, Whoever may dismiss his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery.

NEW HUSBAND: marries a wife who was divorced by her husband.

Mat 5:32 But I say to you, Whoever puts away his wife, apart from a matter of fornication, causes her to commit adultery. And whoever shall marry the one put away commits adultery.

Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, if not for fornication, and shall marry another, that one commits adultery. And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery.

Luk 16:18 Everyone putting away his wife, and marrying another, commits adultery. And everyone marrying her who has been put away from a husband commits adultery.

Maybe I'll just throw these out to see what people are thinking.

Jesus was addressing those who lived and died by the Law. He was showing them that there is no way around it. If you live by the Law, you will die by the Law.

The Law said to stone adulterers, yet Christ did not pick up a stone, He asked a question. All those die hard Law experts slowly walked away because they realized, they were all guilty, and the Law saves no one, that it in fact condemns everyone. So yes, all these things are adultery, but it matters not, because we are saved by grace through faith, not the law that we have all violated.

Not to side track the thread but just wanted to comment on the Adulterous Scripture. Remember that this story in John is Not Found in the earliest manuscript of the book of John P52 which means it was added later possibly...

[shorttribber]

Not to side track the thread but just wanted to comment on the Adulterous Scripture. Remember that this story in John is Not Found in the earliest manuscript of the book of John P52 which means it was added later possibly...

Not so fast....Sinaiticus and Vaticanus manuscripts are not very reliable really IMO

would have to recheck that particular text to be sure though

[shorttribber]

Not to side track the thread but just wanted to comment on the Adulterous Scripture. Remember that this story in John is Not Found in the earliest manuscript of the book of John P52 which means it was added later possibly...

Just did a short check...p52 is a very small fragment that doesn't address the issue being discussed right now. Could it be another fragment that you're referring to or have I got it wrong?

[drdos]

Not to side track the thread but just wanted to comment on the Adulterous Scripture. Remember that this story in John is Not Found in the earliest manuscript of the book of John P52 which means it was added later possibly...

Just did a short check...p52 is a very small fragment that doesn't address the issue being discussed right now. Could it be another fragment that you're referring to or have I got it wrong?

Sorry it was P66 and 75

The pericope is not found in any place in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts; neither in the two 3rd century papyrus witnesses to John - P66 and P75; nor in the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, although all four of these manuscripts may acknowledge the existence of the passage via diacritical marks at the spot.

[Abiding in His Word]

This may be helpful My Favorite Passage That's Not In the Bible

[shorttribber]

"Twenty years later, two Cambridge scholars came to the firm conclusion that John 7:53–8:11 also was not part of the original text of scripture. But Westcott and Hort’s view has not had nearly the impact that Alford’s did."

Wescott and Hort again

[GodsStudent]

I appreciate all the thoughtful responses and I welcome any others. The only snag for me is the fact that I wake up every morning still married to her so it seems like an "ongoing sin", which defies repentance in the traditional sense of stopping the sinful behavior. However, I agree with Mr. Baldy that you can't unscramble that egg. So, it does seem ludicrous to harm my current wife and children by doing the same thing, i.e. leaving them, that I did previously. It does not seem very corrective or healing to anyone. And, it would do no good for my first wife.

I have no qualms calling what I did sin and adultery. I just need to know that it no longer is. I suppose it changed from adultery to a "forgiven" marriage when I repented. It's just that in my mind, the only way I can repent in terms of changing the behavior, is not to ever do that again with my second wife. I only entertained this other viewpoint that I'm still committing adultery every day I stay married because the stakes are high, i.e. eternal destiny, and I don't want to be guilty of rationalizing instead of using scripture. He used scripture so I thought I should consider it, especially when it appears quite a few people believe this way. I do think unrepentant sin, especially that is well know and understood, is dangerous ground to be on. I don't want to be there. And by unrepentant, I mean no efforts are being made to stop it, one has just given in to it. Even a struggle to stop a chronic sin is OK, I think, but the attitude should be, "I'm working on this with God. I know it should change and I want it to change. I want to be right with God." I think these other people are using a status, i.e. "adultery", and translating that into daily sinful, unrepentant behavior. In other words, the very status of my current marriage makes me a daily sinner who is not repenting. I do have a hard time thinking God now sees my family as one huge sin that should not exist. I know He gave us our children and has blessed us in various ways over the years. I just don't think harming these little ones that He has given us to love is something Jesus would command me to do. Again, just trying to make sure from other godly people that I'm not rationalizing to trump scripture.
Thanks.

Morning readyornot: You repeated what Mr. Baldy said about unscrambling an egg....and many gave a hearty Amen to that....many of us are in agreement on many of the points, which leads to the point I made, which is Christ said go and sin no more....

Also, the scripture the pastor taught on....when I read it in your first post, and as applied to the content of your post, I was reading that scripture as a warning to those who have not yet accepted Christ and repented of their sins. ....how can our sins be washed away if they never got washed away??? That scripture is speaking to the unsaved and unrepentant....and the pastor, in his sermon, was remiss in not making that point, if he didn't. This is a plain ol' case of doubt instead of faith....in the finished work on the cross....which is why I said you should not let the devil creep in....tell him to get behind you and your family sir, and do as Christ said....GO AND SIN NO MORE....and be the best Christian you can be until your Lord and SAVIOR redeems you. He knows and judges your heart, and we can all see that your heart is for Him....He's not going to crush you on a technicality....that's not our Lord and Savior, that's the devil.

[Exit40]

Jhn 8:10
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Jhn 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Readyornot, this is important for you to grasp. The accusers and condemners left, Jesus said He did not condemn her either. Pretty clear evidence IMO of the power of our Lord's love and forgiveness trumping the Law. Now we can ask a lot of questions about this, like what if's etc, but that would fall into the area of speculation and put us back under the influence of the Law, to pick at the wording and apply other Scriptures that maybe don't relate the message here. Consider also, if you divorce now for anything but fornication you would be in violation of the Law. Not to mention all the accompanying grief. May I quote you ? OK thanks.

Even a struggle to stop a chronic sin is OK, I think, but the attitude should be, "I'm working on this with God. I know it should change and I want it to change. I want to be right with God."

Great attitude. What you may want to change is your perception of the Law, which is fulfilled by our Christ, for you. The Law says we need a Savior, Jesus is He that saves, us from our sins. No matter the gravity we place on them He has already paid the price required by the Law. I think the following passage may explain this struggle...

Phl 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That is getting right with God, through Christ who loves you and your family soo much. Sin no more by doing no further harm, keep your family in love and in Christ as He wants you to do. When you come to the end of this struggle you will discover you are already forgiven. Praying for you and your family, that He pours out His Spirit on you.

Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

God bless You

David

[keithareilly]

ReadyorNot,

You know, we all have committed sins we wish we had not.
Not a single one of us can undo even one of them.
That's how it is.

Though we might want to make things right, we cannot always make things right.
What is done is done.
Sometimes, we have to accept that being forgiven is all that can be done.
That's how it is.

The mature Christian chooses good over evil. See Hebrews 5 & 6.
So ask yourself: "What is the good that can be accomplished in your present circumstances?" then accomplish the good.
For you were created for good works.
That's how it is.

We all live under is God's Grace.
This is God's gift to mankind.
You are called to peace. Accept His grace. Be at peace.
That's how it is.

Keith

[keithareilly]

ReadoOrNot and wife,

Romans 10:5-13
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”(that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Scripture states asking who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell is a wrong question.
Stop asking if you will go to Heaven or Hell. It is a wrong question.

Righteousness by faith says: "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart."

Do you declare with your mouth that: "Jesus is Lord"? We see it here so we know you do.
Do you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead? Again we see it here so we know you do.

Stop asking who will go to Heaven or Hell it is not a question the faithful ask.
Since an unasked question does not need an answer, let the question go.
Let it go for yourself and your wife; let it go for the Homosexuals.

Be at Peace.

Keith

[Ready1]

Hi readyornot,

As you can see by the following comments, there is great comfort in the opinions of others. But are the opinions of others what God thinks?

Divorce is NOT the unpardonable sin. God forgave you as soon as you went to Him in repentance. You cannot unscramble an egg.

While I would agree that divorce is not an unpardonable sin, but the posted scriptures imply that God somehow does not appear to overlook the remarriage of individuals who have divorced and gone on to remarry. And while I would agree with Mr. Baldy that you cannot unscramble an egg, I would disagree with his implication that it is impossible to "unsin". When we become Christians, we have a new opportunity "...even so we also should walk in newness of life." We are told by the Apostle Paul in Romans to "...Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Ro 6:12-13"

So in view of the question of divorce and remarriage we always have to go back to the scripture. While I would agree that God forgave your sin the moment you trusted in him and went to him in repentance, the question for you is, does God view your current marriage as adulterous or forgiven? ( I can tell by your opening OP that you have thought about it as well.) In view of this question, I would ask you if you can find any NT statements which would specifically negate the scriptures which were posted with respect to divorce and remarriage?

God doesn't see your divorce anymore. Don't let the fruit inspectors and law masters of the church get to you. They are in the midst of a struggle too, albeit different from yours, but it's as much a struggle with sin as any tattoo covered, drug smoking, illicit sex having, foul mouthed individual is in.

To simply cite another person's sin does not forgive me if I am involved in sin. While I understand that Christendom at large would possibly agree with Corporal Johnny's statement, I would ask you if we can be absolutely certain that God doesn't see your divorce anymore. While I know for certain that musing is not argumentation, I have always been intrigued by the fact that on this subject, God has not really left a single loophole. ie: He has given us a scenario for the husband, the wife, the new husband, and the new wife...and He calls every relationship except the original marriage adulterous.

Jesus was addressing those who lived and died by the Law. He was showing them that there is no way around it. If you live by the Law, you will die by the Law.

The Law said to stone adulterers, yet Christ did not pick up a stone, He asked a question. All those die hard Law experts slowly walked away because they realized, they were all guilty, and the Law saves no one, that it in fact condemns everyone. So yes, all these things are adultery, but it matters not, because we are saved by grace through faith, not the law that we have all violated.

Once again I can agree with part of what Corporal Johnny has written. Yes Jesus was addressing those who lived and died by the law. But I think that he was teaching more than just that there was no way around the law. They already knew that. What he was teaching was that all of us are guilty before the law and there is no one who is able to stand in condemnation of another. Because we all have sin in our lives. He gave those who brought her to him every opportunity to kill her, but if you remember they walked away (oldest to youngest) because they saw and understood his teaching. And then Jesus, who was the only one in the circle who could have thrown a rock at her without condemning himself, refused to do so. So we learn about his mercy from this scripture as well.

BUT. And it is a big but. I truly believe that Corporal Johnny is in error when he says "So yes, all these things are adultery, but it matters not, because we are saved by grace through faith, not the law ..." If it truly "mattered not" then Jesus would have told the woman, "I am so sorry that your sexual encounter was so rudely interrupted. Just go back and take your pleasure, because these bad boy accusers of yours now understand that it simply does not matter. You are under grace now."

We know that that is not what he told her though. And what he said was.

"Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: " John 8:10-11

Jesus could have left it right there. And we would all have probably still understood the passage like Corporal Johnny does. But Jesus didn't leave things right there. Rather he concluded

Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus always confronted sin as sin. He didn't walk around it. He didn't sugar coat it. He didn't ignore it. He called it sin. He said "Don't do it."

So the question, readyornot, is this. Is remarriage after a divorce (when there is a living first spouse) adultery, or is it not? If it is, then you are involved in adultery every day. If it is not, there is no issue.

I am certain that this will generate some discussion.

[Abiding in His Word]

I'm on the way out the door so I just have a minute...but I'd like to ask members to see just how often that scripture in John 8 is used in an effort to "curb" someone's perceived sin. I find it strange first, as there is much discrepancy among scholars whether the story of the adulterous woman was/is part of the original manuscripts. And second, that Jesus, knowing that human beings will continue to sin whether intentionally or unintentionally, due to our weaknesses of the flesh, would admonish the woman to "sin no more." (providing one believes it's originally scriptural or an addition by scribes).

No one ever will be sinless and while God himself "put away" his wife by giving Israel a writ of divorcement, we know that scripture speaks of another Bride of Christ. We know our sins are not held against us thankfully because Jesus nailed them to the cross.

[readyornot]

Ready1, I appreciate your input. I really like to push on something to see if it stands, and you are pushing on the consensus here. I also am about to leave work and will be travelling out of town this weekend so I cannot fully think this through and respond right now. However, my initial thoughts are, what does "go and sin no more" mean in my situation? To me, there are two options, either quit being married to my current wife, i.e., divorce her now, or, never divorce again, meaning stay with my current wife and never divorce her.

My other immediate thought is that the original writer/pastor that I referred to in my OP was using I Cor 6:9-10 to make his claim that we shall not inherit the kindgom of God, i.e., we're going to Hell, because we are ongoing, unrepentant adulterers. It has been noted on this thread and elsewhere that I have read, that the passage referred to in I Cor is referring to unsaved people there and saying you should no longer be acting like an unsaved person. Another pastor I read said it has to do with sanctification, not salvation. Quit acting like an unsaved person who has not inherited the Kingdom of God.

I don't know. I appreciate all the feedback and am still trying to mull it all over. I talked to God about it while driving to work today. I think He probably likes that I'm struggling with this, because in the end, I'll be stronger in my conviction, one way or the other. I just hope I won't be sincerely heading to Hell...
BTW, to all you who have posted or read this thread, I am by no means a legalist. Without going into all the details of my spiritual journey, I just want to assure you that I am not normally hung up on any sin causing someone to go to Hell. What makes this different for me is the explicit use of some scripture and the fact that my marriage can be construed to be an ongoing act of defiance. As I said previously, that kind of ongoing defiance gets scary for me. I don't know that my theology is strong enough to defend that. I have always struggled with all my other known sins, not always successfully, but I felt that evidence of my salvation was that I at least always got up to bat and tried. Striking out did not send me to Hell. The only way I could lose would be to walk away from the battle. I know that analogy is not scripture and it just popped in my head, but I hope you all understand. The difference with my marriage, is that I am not even thinking about ever divorcing my current wife. In fact, I have been living with a very strong conviction that I should never do that again. Here's a link (I hope this is OK) to an article I read that I would like to believe is right:

https://transforminggrace.wordpress.com ... salvation/

I hope I typed that out right. It was on my cell phone.
Again, thank you all for your time and careful consideration here. Maybe it will help someone else too.

[CorporalJohnny]

Hi readyornot,

As you can see by the following comments, there is great comfort in the opinions of others. But are the opinions of others what God thinks?

Divorce is NOT the unpardonable sin. God forgave you as soon as you went to Him in repentance. You cannot unscramble an egg.

While I would agree that divorce is not an unpardonable sin, but the posted scriptures imply that God somehow does not appear to overlook the remarriage of individuals who have divorced and gone on to remarry. And while I would agree with Mr. Baldy that you cannot unscramble an egg, I would disagree with his implication that it is impossible to "unsin". When we become Christians, we have a new opportunity "...even so we also should walk in newness of life." We are told by the Apostle Paul in Romans to "...Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Ro 6:12-13"

So in view of the question of divorce and remarriage we always have to go back to the scripture. While I would agree that God forgave your sin the moment you trusted in him and went to him in repentance, the question for you is, does God view your current marriage as adulterous or forgiven? ( I can tell by your opening OP that you have thought about it as well.) In view of this question, I would ask you if you can find any NT statements which would specifically negate the scriptures which were posted with respect to divorce and remarriage?

God doesn't see your divorce anymore. Don't let the fruit inspectors and law masters of the church get to you. They are in the midst of a struggle too, albeit different from yours, but it's as much a struggle with sin as any tattoo covered, drug smoking, illicit sex having, foul mouthed individual is in.

To simply cite another person's sin does not forgive me if I am involved in sin. While I understand that Christendom at large would possibly agree with Corporal Johnny's statement, I would ask you if we can be absolutely certain that God doesn't see your divorce anymore. While I know for certain that musing is not argumentation, I have always been intrigued by the fact that on this subject, God has not really left a single loophole. ie: He has given us a scenario for the husband, the wife, the new husband, and the new wife...and He calls every relationship except the original marriage adulterous.

Jesus was addressing those who lived and died by the Law. He was showing them that there is no way around it. If you live by the Law, you will die by the Law.

The Law said to stone adulterers, yet Christ did not pick up a stone, He asked a question. All those die hard Law experts slowly walked away because they realized, they were all guilty, and the Law saves no one, that it in fact condemns everyone. So yes, all these things are adultery, but it matters not, because we are saved by grace through faith, not the law that we have all violated.

Once again I can agree with part of what Corporal Johnny has written. Yes Jesus was addressing those who lived and died by the law. But I think that he was teaching more than just that there was no way around the law. They already knew that. What he was teaching was that all of us are guilty before the law and there is no one who is able to stand in condemnation of another. Because we all have sin in our lives. He gave those who brought her to him every opportunity to kill her, but if you remember they walked away (oldest to youngest) because they saw and understood his teaching. And then Jesus, who was the only one in the circle who could have thrown a rock at her without condemning himself, refused to do so. So we learn about his mercy from this scripture as well.

BUT. And it is a big but. I truly believe that Corporal Johnny is in error when he says "So yes, all these things are adultery, but it matters not, because we are saved by grace through faith, not the law ..." If it truly "mattered not" then Jesus would have told the woman, "I am so sorry that your sexual encounter was so rudely interrupted. Just go back and take your pleasure, because these bad boy accusers of yours now understand that it simply does not matter. You are under grace now."

We know that that is not what he told her though. And what he said was.

"Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: " John 8:10-11

Jesus could have left it right there. And we would all have probably still understood the passage like Corporal Johnny does. But Jesus didn't leave things right there. Rather he concluded

Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus always confronted sin as sin. He didn't walk around it. He didn't sugar coat it. He didn't ignore it. He called it sin. He said "Don't do it."

So the question, readyornot, is this. Is remarriage after a divorce (when there is a living first spouse) adultery, or is it not? If it is, then you are involved in adultery every day. If it is not, there is no issue.

I am certain that this will generate some discussion.

God forgives sin. PERIOD.

No where did I ever say go on sinning.

But stop reminding people of their past sins and stop encouraging them to engage in remembering their old sins. As far as the east is from the west, God has removed our transgressions.

Again, I state very strongly, do not let Law Masters and Fruit Inspectors steal your joy. Ignore them.

If there had been some way we could have won this battle, Jesus would not have had to die for us to win it.

There are always consequences to our sins, but the penalty has been removed.

David committed adultery and had Uriah murdered. The consequence for him was that his entire house was plunged into chaos, and the unborn child was taken from him.

HOWEVER


H O W E V E R

God loved David, and despite that their relationship began in sin, David married Bathsheba and David loved Bathsheba, and they had Solomon. And through this line, the Messiah came. If David's marriage to Bathsheba was viewed as sinful from God's eyes, I doubt very much that the promises of God would have been birthed through it.

God forgets and forgives, period, end of story.

For the Law Masters amongst us, does that justify what David did? Absolutely not. But David was contrite, and God forgave, and He forgot.

F O R G O T.

So please, stop dwelling on your mistakes and your sins. God forgave you, press on forward to the calling He has for you and your family and do not let the enemy steal your joy!!!

YOU ARE FORGIVEN, AND YOU HAVE A NEW BEGINNING!

[Jay Ross]

Readyornot,

After going back and reading your opening post and ignoring anything else that has been written in this thread, may I suggest to you that you may need to go back to your first wife to seek forgiveness for your previous actions so that you can forgive yourself. You may also need to forgive her at the same time if that has not already been done.

It also seems to me that you may also need to revisit the reasons/causational triggers that impacted your first marriage to the point where divorce seemed to be the obvious solution back then that you are responsible for. It is in this area that God may need to help you through the transformation process for your life so that it does not come to the fore ever again.

Now, if you want to look at adulaters in the Bible, then King David could be considered as an example, but it was not the adulatory that God had the prophet Nathan challenge King David over. God challenged King David over acting God like with his subjects etc. and stealing their affection away from God.

Often the sin of acting God Like is overlooked because of the manifestations of other sins which result from acting God like, masks it from plain view. This sin is not always obvious to us as it is a nebulous sin, unlike adultery or murder or stealing etc., which are more black and white so to speak and easier to deal with. There are consequences of the sins which manifest themselves because of our sin of acting God like, and the ramifications these sins may remain with us for a considerable period of time.

However, King David knew when God had forgiven him for his sin of acting God like that the sin was forgiven and that he could then get on with his life. If we carefully read the account of King David's life, we will observe that King David repeated this sin of acting God like a number of times during his lifetime and that they had consequences that he had to deal with when they occurred and that he had to seek God's forgiveness anew each time.

The other interesting observation is that God used the consequences of King David's sins to fulfil His purposes for the eventual salvation of all of mankind. God Bless King David with the birth of King Solomon, out of his grief for the loss of his first son with Bathsheba. Through Solomon, Christ's blood line can be traced.

So it may also be with you. God may use your weaknesses to enable you to bless others.

May both you and your wife continue to press into the loving embrace of God and to be faithful to his calling over your lives.

Shalom

Jay Ross.

[Jericho]

This is one of those topics I wish scriptures were a little more explicit about. But I guess the closet example I can think of, besides King David, is Hosea and Gomer. Here was was women who was a prostitute that God told Hosea to marry, and who then cheated on him. If there is one instance where divorce is prohibited it's adultery, but regardless God tells him to buy her back. I am reminded of the verse, "Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean. (Acts 10:15)". I think this is something you need to settle for yourself once and for all so you can move forward. Something Jay said also makes me wonder if guilt over leaving your first wife may also play into this. Just a thought.

[keithareilly]

ReadyOrNot,

I am over 50 and have sinned more than I care to admit even to myself. There are times I have done well overcoming sin and become arrogant and times I have been humbled and shown sins I did not know I had the potential of committing. I have done both great evil and great good in my life. I became a Christian because I wanted to be free from this body of death and have power to cease sinning as I hated who I was.

After 30 years being a Christian and both succeeding and failing to overcome sin, I have learned to rely on Christ's sacrifice. I have learned to ask God to not lead me into temptation because I might not overcome and win the crown. So in the end, I rely on Christ and ask God to overlook and forgive my sins. If he does, he does. If he does not he does not and there is nothing I could do about it.

In the end it is whether or not God will forgive sins, yours and mine.
Scripture says he will. So I have learned to just take God at his word.

There really is not anything else any of us can do but to trust that a God who would sacrifice his only son to take away the sins of the world really means what he says.

My favorite scripture is: 1 John 4:18
"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love."


I remember when I read this that God wants me to not be afraid to approach the thrown of glory. He has sacrificed his son so that I would understand love, that I would be perfected in Love and have the fear of approaching the thrown (now or at the final judgment) driven out of me. Fearing you will go to Hell means you are not yet perfected in Love. So work on being perfected in Love and trust God to keep that which you have committed. Consider yourself blessed as God has shown you where you need to work on your own faith and an area where you are to husband your wife. You are correct that you should not divorce her. She should not have any fear that you would divorce her as you should not have any fear that God would divorce you.


Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Great post, Keith!

[keithareilly]

ReadyOrNot and wife,
Romans 7:4-6
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


The two of you are under attack from Satan.
Satan wants you to leave your salvation by grace and return to the Law where He has power over you.
Just as He said to Eve, "Did not God say you can eat of any tree in the garden" Satan is trying to use God's words against you. Satan is quoting you scripture in an attempt to get you to listen to him and obey him. He is trying to get you to believe that your marriage is immoral and that you and your wife should leave the marriage. We know God hates divorce so don't listen to Satan and divorce again. Keep repenting of the sin of divorce (like any other sin, don't do it again) and you will be fine.

The real subtlety here is that Satan is treating you as if you are under the law. By doing so he is trying to convince you that your current marriage is immoral in the eyes of the law (therefore God) and therefore you should leave it and yet again accomplish the sin of divorce in the name of keeping the Law. This is the same deception Satan used with Eve.

You are not under the Law; therefore, it does not apply. Nevertheless, Satan wants to convince you otherwise so that Satan may gain control over you. You know the scripture, The law brings death, empowing Sin.

Romans 7:8-11
8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

So here it what is going on. Satan is treating you as if you are under the Law and you are accepting his assumption and through it Satan is attempting to gain power over you and your wife by trying to convince the two of you your current marriage is immoral (that is, not in line with God's moral code, the law, the same law through which Sin gains power over men). If Satan succeeds, then you would have to repent by committing the sin of divorce. So, ask yourself this: "If marriage is a sin that must be repented through divorce, then to whose law would you really be submitting by divorcing your spouse?" Is it not like Satan to take what is good, call it evil; then tell you that repentance requires you to sin?

Understand who is whispering in your ear.
Satan is attacking you and your wife using scriptures just like he did with Adam and Eve.
He is attacking you at a weak spot, trying to get you to again commit the sin of divorce and he is doing this by using scripture to convince you your current marriage is immoral and must therefore repented of by sinning the sin of divorce.
His plan is to get you and your wife back under the law where he has power over you.

Remember you are saved by Christ's sacrifice not by your ability to keep the law.

Keith

[GodsStudent]

Another good post, Keith. There have been a lot of good responses on this thread and most reiterate that we
cannot keep the law (he who is need of a physician),
we have all sinned and should strive not to commit the same sins over and over again (sanctification),
and that we are forgiven for our transgressions and sins through Christ's finished work on the cross (grace)....

all of this is taught in scripture and speaks to the whole "what is being a Christian about."

[keithareilly]

readyOrNot,

Regarding the immoral entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mathew 21:28-32
28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30 And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

John 6:27-29
27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

John 6:40
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So we have prostitutes entering the kingdom of Heaven because the prostitutes did the will of God. They believed in the one who God sent. According to Christ, prostitutes who look upon the Son and believe in him are to inherit eternal life and Christ himself will raise them up on the last day.

The will of God is to believe in the one whom He sent. So believe that Christ died for your sins and on the last day when we are raised from the dead, you and your wife can stand beside me and everyone else who believes, including the prostitutes, our sisters in Christ.

Keith

[Jay Ross]

readyOrnot,

I read Wades blog this morning and thought that you may also like what he has blogged.

The title on this mornings blog was: - "The Prescription for Hope In Time of Failure, Brokenness, and Sin."

http://www.wadeburleson.org/

Shalom

Jay Ross

[readyornot]

I just want to let you all know I'm reading and thinking about all this. Keith, I do think there is definitely a spiritual warfare component to this. And there certainly was when I divorced my first wife, so I really don't want to be made a sucker again. I don't think I mentioned that my first wife remarried after I did. Unfortunately, nearly 15 years later, her second husband has left her for another woman and she is now divorced again. She is a godly woman and her situation really bothers me. I could not remarry her even if I divorced my current wife. I just don't think abandoning my wife and kids would be smiled upon by God. Pardon the phrase, but it's almost literally like a "****** if you do, ****** if you don't" situation. Somehow, I believe my current marriage is no longer adultery and I am obligated to cherish it the way I would a first marriage. I know it was adultery when it first occurred, but I don't think it is any longer. When it changed, I could guess, but am not sure. I am definitely going to study all this more. I have not had time to re-read and think about all this carefully to the degree that I should. You all have helped me to process this, though, and I truly thank you. Again, maybe this will help someone else, too. Keep on posting as long as you want. I will eventually put some more-defined thoughts out on this.

Keep in mind folks, that I was not even thinking about this until my current wife came to me worried about her own salvation. I just want to be sure in my own mind and heart before I try to reassure her. It's strange how old things sometimes pop up to be re-hashed again. But I'm going to nail this one down, to the cross, one way or the other.

[keithareilly]

Readyornot,

God graciously gives us a pass.
We live in a state of grace.
Grace is our state of existence.
Grace is the rule of law in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Scripture admonishes us not to use our freedom from the law as a license to sin.
Think about this. We are so free from the law that we have to be warned not to use our freedom wrongly.
A correct use of our freedom would be staying with our second spouse instead of divorcing her even when that marriage under the law is adultery.

The Law was a guardian for children to show Sin for what it is.
Grace is for adults who learn to choose good over evil.
We are called to be adults. To choose good.
We are to leave being a child and the fear of being punished for wrongs behind.
We are to be adults and choose good instead of evil.
We are granted grace so that we need not fear making mistakes as we learn.

You have learned from your first marriage and the mistakes you made.
Fear not for you are under grace.
Instead apply what you have leaned and be the good husband God would have you, his adopted son, be to His adopted daughter, your wife.

Keith

[slick]

Hello Gang,
These of Types of conversations with all due respect have a place in new or young Christians lives, not mature believers who have been maturing in the faith..Im Not Trying to make light of anyones feeling or struggles, But JESUS dealt with SIN on the cross ALL SIN....

The great accuser satan makes every attempt to weaken us by lies, intimidation and false or unwarranted accusations....this is the case with the OP...a message from someone caused doubt (which happens to all) and the accuser began to exploit the situation til his very faith has been brought into question by himself....

Here is a question, If the only sin a person ever commits in his/her entire life is a white lie, apart from knowing Jesus where does the Bible say He will spend eternity? HELL......so what about after He knows JESUS or rather JESUS KNOWS him...? ALL SIN is forgiven we are made righteous by the work of JESUS on the cross and by his Blood...NO SIN can ever change that...we this side of eternity NEVER stop sinning so which of those sins if left unconfessed sends us to hell? Romans 8 tells us NOTHING separates us from the love of CHRIST!!!! that includes who we are SINNERS.

Paul & James make it quite clear, that there are false believers among us...and that it is evident by their works, and their attitude toward sin....I know friends and family who claim Jesus as their savior and live in unmarried adulterous relationships, when I have confronted them it usually results in anger bitterness, and an unrepentant spirit.

JESUS IS VICTORIOUS so WE ARE VICTORIOUS plain & simple!!!! the accuser like in the case of Job will be defeated in his attempt to claim victory...though each battle if left to self weakens us.

I spent some 11 years living in adulterous Drunken Foul dark life had children with a woman (who is now my wife) while married to another (under the law)....all sinful activity.. yet claimed to be saved, (i'll leave that to God)... here is my point I was acting in complete rebellion toward GOD, but there were times when I would be brought in contact with believers or come face to face with my sin and would ALWAYS without fail become very convicted! on the outside it looked as if I was a blatant sinner with no regard to GOD inside I was tormented and shamed by my sinful life and eventually GOD would bring me back to himself...

GOD KNEW & KNOWS our/My heart He Knows who are his..His BLOOD is enough....

My wife was an unbeliever and hateful toward GOD and I stayed with her for 20+ years (now 30 in july) praying faithfully that GOD would bring her to himself.. He answered that prayer about 3 years ago.. Many times I had doubts about living with an unbeliever and tormented sometimes about my decision to marry her...and the past sins causing doubt & grief...I am NOW convinced that I am married to exactly whom GOD chose for me, Not that everything is perfect but because I have grown to see how GOD works to build each of us within our relationship....

ETERNAL consequences have been paid, physical consequences are brought upon us if we choose sin...sometimes by GOD (Hebrews 11) or by the law...that will be true until We die or Christ returns....

In Closing, Confess anxiety, doubt, worry & fear as sin, CLAIM victory In CHRIST and live Courageously as His word Calls us to do!!

GOD-BLESS,
The Battle Rages Til The Lion Soon Roars!!
Clarence

[keithareilly]

ReadyOrNot and wife,

Christ said the sum of the Law is love God with your all, and love your neighbor as yourself.
We also know faith hope and love last. The greatest of the three is Love.
God is Love.

When we look at the Law we should view it as examples of Loving God and our neighbor and examples of not loving God and our neighbor. But the Law is only a subset of Love God with your all and love your neighbor as yourself.
The law is not complete apart from Love and the examples cannot cover every possible contingency. Furthermore, we could sacrifice ourselves but without Love it is a waste.

The prostitute who washed Christ's feet with her tears was forgiven much because she loved much.

Right and wrong are codifications, that is Law.
God asks more of us than simply meeting the codifications; just the limited examples found in the law.
He asks us to fulfill loving Him and loving our neighbor; the complete spirit of the Law, not just the codifications.

When we are children we are worried about right and wrong: that is, meeting the codifications found in the Law.
As adults in Christ we graduate from keeping the codifications of right and wrong and instead serve in the spirit choosing good over evil.

So as adults in Christ we leave behind right and wrong and the guardian (the Law) who defines them and instead learn to recognize and choose good over evil. And we know that Loving God with everything and loving our neighbors as ourselves is better than the codifications.

So when you are trying to decide what is right or wrong, ask yourself instead what is good and what is evil. If you have trouble making that determination, ask yourself what is the loving thing to do? Is it loving God to abandon God's daughter and her children? Is it loving your wife to divorce her? We know these are not acts of love.

So, if an act is not an act of love of God and neighbor then it cannot be good and if it is not good then it cannot be right either.

If being a husband to God's daughter and a father to her children is an act of loving God then it is the good thing to do; therefore, the right thing to do.

Keith

[ampersand]

...
In the end it is whether or not God will forgive sins, yours and mine.
Scripture says he will. So I have learned to just take God at his word.

There really is not anything else any of us can do but to trust that a God who would sacrifice his only son to take away the sins of the world really means what he says.
...
Keith

Great point, Keith (as are others you have made in this thread). The question in this thread partly revolves around how forgiveness of sin is obtained. When I ask God for forgiveness for sins, does my belief in having obtained forgiveness rest in my knowing that I have asked or in knowing that He forgives those who ask. It is the latter, and it is that knowledge that was the impetus for the asking. But I have to take Him at His word.

Abraham's faith was established exactly how you described: taking God at His word:

Rom 4:20: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21: And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

in Christ,
&

[keithareilly]

ReadyOrNot and Wife,

I have contemplated your question with regards to why homosexuals should separate verses heterosexuals not separating. After some consideration I believe the following to be true.

Part of our salvation is the renewing of our minds.
For a homosexual, this would mean the renewing of the mind away from homosexual relationship(s) and towards heterosexual relationship(s). Thus continuing in a homosexual relationship is in conflict with the renewing of the mind. It may very well be that a homosexual person who becomes a believer will continue in the homosexual relationship(s) until such time as it is no longer compatible with the renewing mind. Given time, this renewing will eventual force the believer to leave homosexual relationship(s).

Heterosexuals relationships may need a renewing of the mind with regards to their relationships but not in the same fashion as a homosexual mind renewing. For the heterosexual it should be about a renewing that will eventual bring the couple closer whereas the renewing for the homosexual mind will lead to heterosexuality, driving the homosexual relationship apart. God's renewing of our minds should bring all who are to have a spouse to a faithful permanent heterosexual marital relationship unto death.

It is because our minds will be renewed that homosexual believers will eventual need to leave the homosexual relationships. Interestingly, the homosexual believer who is undergoing such changes may find himself in multiple heterosexual relationships and such relationships, while still sinful, represent progress of the believer and repentance from homosexual relationships. Throughout the process, that believer is under grace just as much as the rest of us are under grace. God knows what each person can bear and does not give any of us more than we can handle.

Edited 2.12.15 to Add:
We should all rejoice at the homosexual believer who finds a heterosexual spouse and remains faithful till death leaving homosexuality in their past. Likewise, we should all rejoice at the heterosexual believer who finds a spouse and remains faithful till death leaving serial polygamy in their past.


Keith

[GodsStudent]

Keith.....excellent, and I do believe you are absolutely right....