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There are some who believes that we must and are able to keep the Ten Commandments after we become Christians.

And if we break the 10 Commandments, we must actively confess and repent of our sins, or else we are in danger of losing our salvation.

First of all, consider the folly of such a belief... If your salvation was never based on works in the first place, how then is your salvation maintained or lost by works?

Secondly, (and I just had this revelation today), consider the very famous passage of Romans 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

The word ALL means ALL encompassing... ALL Jew and Gentile... ALL past, present and future...

Then it struck me! God is measuring sin not according to the 10 Commandments any longer. The 10 commandments served as God's standard of righteousness until the coming of Christ. But when The Lord Jesus was made a curse for us, He redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal 3:9, Rom 10:4).

Nope, the standard of God's Holiness today is not the Old Testament law, but the person of Jesus Christ... It is against that Glory of God, the sinlessness of Jesus Christ, that we have fallen short and thus sinned.

My friends, if you trying to fulfill the Ten Commandments in one way or another, you are setting the bar too low... You got to set it to the standard of Jesus Christ... And if you still think you can measure up to the very Glory of God, good luck to you...

and The 10 commandments are a measuring rod of what God's standard was for us, and also a stumbling block that we could never live up to. That is why He sent His Son. He could live up to the standard and was the perfect sacrifice for us, because of that very reason.

Ready1, the Glory of God, and the Holiness of God is more than the sum total of all the laws and the prophets...

And your quote is a great quote... You shall love the Lord with ALL your heart, mind, soul and strength... There is only One that I know who did this... Jesus Christ... God's standard for righteousness now...

Keeping Alert wrote:There are some who believes that we must and are able to keep the Ten Commandments after we become Christians.

And if we break the 10 Commandments, we must actively confess and repent of our sins, or else we are in danger of losing our salvation.

First of all, consider the folly of such a belief... If your salvation was never based on works in the first place, how then is your salvation maintained or lost by works?

Secondly, (and I just had this revelation today), consider the very famous passage of Romans 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

The word ALL means ALL encompassing... ALL Jew and Gentile... ALL past, present and future...

Then it struck me! God is measuring sin not according to the 10 Commandments any longer. The 10 commandments served as God's standard of righteousness until the coming of Christ. But when The Lord Jesus was made a curse for us, He redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal 3:9, Rom 10:4).

Nope, the standard of God's Holiness today is not the Old Testament law, but the person of Jesus Christ... It is against that Glory of God, the sinlessness of Jesus Christ, that we have fallen short and thus sinned.

My friends, if you trying to fulfill the Ten Commandments in one way or another, you are setting the bar too low... You got to set it to the standard of Jesus Christ... And if you still think you can measure up to the very Glory of God, good luck to you...

Hi Keeping Alert,
I think you are right in concept, thinking about these things like you are is excellent, most don't.

Those who believe that we need to keep the commandments after we become Christians fail to realize that they could not become a Christian apart from perfectly fulfilling the law of God first. That's a self defeating statement.

I would disagree with your conclusion though that God's standard is not the Law and the Prophets, God has not changed His perfect law nor His requirement that one must be perfect in all the law to see His face. Jesus declares this very clearly in Matthew 5:17-18: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Imputation is the key to understand how it works, I am not being a smart aleck in saying this, but to say God does not judge sin according to the perfect law is really incorrect. Jesus became flesh and fulfilled the Law most certainly but that still does nothing for us, as you quoted "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." We are declared to be righteous by imputation, we need to fully understand this.

To say that the Law is somehow a lower bar than Christ is IMO incorrect as well, John wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God." and later, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

If you care to, read Psalm 19:7-11 as this is a description of the law of God and the corresponding transformations that it claims to make in the lives of those who trust in it. If you will, look at the perfections of the law in that passage and you will find that they are also the perfections of the Lord Jesus Christ, so really the Law and Christ are one in the same thing and thus a dichotomy cannot be inserted between them.

But I get where your coming from.

Keeping Alert wrote:The 10 commandments served as God's standard of righteousness until the coming of Christ. But when The Lord Jesus was made a curse for us, He redeemed us from the curse of the law (Gal 3:9, Rom 10:4).

Here's my understanding...

The 10 commandments were given to the Hebrews who had just come out of Egypt. Their exodus required leaving the Egyptian idolatry, temples, and Pharaoh rule they were exposed to for 400 yrs. These generations had little (if any) exposure to the God of Abraham. Upon leaving Egypt, God introduced Himself at Sinai by presenting laws designed to set a new and higher standard of living than that which they had experienced for 400 yrs. in Egypt. Those 10 laws focused on behavior toward God and neighbor. They simply said, "Do this and this....and don't do this." This was the beginning of a progressive introduction to a "new" and Holy God, and behavioral attitudes necessary on their way toward a loving, fair, and just community.

Nope, the standard of God's Holiness today is not the Old Testament law, but the person of Jesus Christ... It is against that Glory of God, the sinlessness of Jesus Christ, that we have fallen short and thus sinned.

Following the 10 laws given at Sinai, the new nation must learn (that's why it's called a tutor) what will happen if the commands are broken. They must learn to distinguish the severity of stealing a yoke of oxen from a neighbor as opposed to stealing a loaf of bread. They must learn the consequences of their actions as well as the appropriate punishment commensurate with the severity of the crime. (much like our federal, state, and civil laws) That's the purpose of the "Mosaic Law" comprised of 613 laws which became the primary focus of the Jews opposition to Christianity in the NT. Besides this code of 613 laws, it was enlarged and expanded by what we know as the "Oral Law" which added oppressive stipulations to the already complicated laws.

So...in my opinion, the "Law" was never meant to be a standard of holiness to enable sanctification, justification, or salvation. It was meant to be a standard of living for the Hebrews that would contrast the practices of the surrounding heathen nations. They would live in such a way that loving their neighbor and executing fair punishment for crimes among them would be a testimony to their God and His love for them.

My conclusion based on my understanding of it's purpose....

It was meant for the Hebrews following the Exodus from Egypt...never for those of us living in the NT era. Our "Law" is simply to love the Lord our God with our whole heart and soul and our neighbor as ourselves. Those two encompass the 10 commandments as well as the 613 Mosaic Laws. Knowing we will fail in some area, we can rejoice that Jesus paid the price for our missing the mark.

Romans 3:10-12
As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;

11
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.

12
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

As it is written......Paul uses this argument in Romans to Gentiles, he's not addressing Jews alone here.

So how does one know that they need Jesus apart from the law? Jesus will mean nothing to the one who does not see himself through the law. It is the law that brings the sinner to humility.

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

I would say that the law is not a salvation message.

It was meant to drive us to God-and plead for mercy.

As far as the Hebrews and Moses is concerned that Abiding wrote about-yes I agree but it is more that just that.

Abiding wrote: Our "Law" is simply to love the Lord our God with our whole heart and soul and our neighbor as ourselves.

Has anyone at any time actually loved the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our mind, and with all our strength, has anyone ever loved God as He ought to be loved? NO not one of us, excepting Jesus Christ.

So our New Testament laws have been broken down to two and we still can't keep them. Thank God for imputation.

So how does one know that they need Jesus apart from the law? Jesus will mean nothing to the one who does not see himself through the law. It is the law that brings the sinner to humility.

That would be me, Mark. I did not see myself as a sinner when I searched for Jesus for several years. I wasn't even certain there was a God. My search was based simply on my hope that there was one who would (hopefully) give me a reason for living. After reading the book by David Wilkerson, I simply read the prayer at the end with the thought that "it can't hurt" to try.

People find the Savior in a variety of ways for a variety of reasons. When Paul bases his logic, arguments, and reasoning on the "law" he presupposes a knowledge of the law or else his words are void of meaning. Gentiles would have little or no background in the precepts of the Mosaic Law, however it's reasonable to believe some may have been Gentile converts to Judaism in which case previous knowledge would bring understanding of Paul's words.

If you approach unbelievers today with "the law" argument, the same lack of understanding would be present. But approach Jews with Paul's words and they will get it! Even Jesus, a Jew, didn't present Himself as Savior from the Law. He offered Himself as living water, the bread of life, the giver of abundant life, the One who brings peace.

The NT law for believers is summarized in love of God and love of neighbor. The OT law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Hi Abiding,

I don't want to come across as being harsh, but that has a ring to me of the message of the church today, accept Jesus and have your best life now. Jesus offered the woman at the well living water and told her about her sins not that He would make her dreams come true. He had compassion on the woman who was set up and brought before Jesus "caught in the act of adultery" and He told her to "go and sin no more."

In Jesus response to the "certain lawyer" in Luke 10 who asked "who is my neighbor?" we are told he wanted to "justify himself" so Jesus taught that what everybody did (except the Samaritan) was the wrong thing to do and thereby exposed that not loving their neighbor was sin.

Plain and simply put if you don't come to Jesus for the forgiveness of sin, say to receive abundant life, my reading of the Scriptures says you are still dead in your sins.

The angel said in Matthew 1:21 that Jesus would save His people from their sins, not add to their already abundant lives.

Isaiah and Jeremiah again and again speak prophecy of judgment and destruction against the Gentile nations for their sin, how is that if the law was for the Hebrews alone?

You said that you "found" Jesus while looking for reasons to live, since then have you recognized that you need to be forgiven of your sins to be saved?

Mark F wrote:I don't want to come across as being harsh, but that has a ring to me of the message of the church today, accept Jesus and have your best life now.

Why does that bother you, Mark? Millions have testified to a better, more fulfilling/meaningful life since accepting Jesus into their lives. Lives are changed because of Him. They are new creatures with all things having become new.

Jesus offered the woman at the well living water and told her about her sins not that He would make her dreams come true.

I don't read Jesus listing the woman's sins. He simply let her know that He knew the circumstances of her life. He didn't call them sins. This woman had most likely been the victim of being "put away" for any reason a number of times. To the best of my knowledge we have no instances of polygyny in scripture as we do polygamy. He was revealing Himself to her and confirmed that He was who she thought He was. He said "I who speak to you am He." (John 4:26) He offered her "living water" and she was pretty happy about that! :)

He had compassion on the woman who was set up and brought before Jesus "caught in the act of adultery" and He told her to "go and sin no more."

This incident is hotly debated among scholars regarding it's insertion in John's gospel at all and Jesus' intended message as well. I hope you won't mind if I don't respond to this one. We did have a lengthy debate about this passage some time ago if I remember correctly and no consensus was obtained.

In Jesus response to the "certain lawyer" in Luke 10 who asked "who is my neighbor?" we are told he wanted to "justify himself" so Jesus taught that what everybody did (except the Samaritan) was the wrong thing to do and thereby exposed that not loving their neighbor was sin.

Mark, this passage is one of showing mercy and assistance to those in need. I'm not sure how this relates to salvation.

Plain and simply put if you don't come to Jesus for the forgiveness of sin, say to receive abundant life, my reading of the Scriptures says you are still dead in your sins.

The angel said in Matthew 1:21 that Jesus would save His people from their sins, not add to their already abundant lives.

Yes, the birth of Jesus was the fulfillment of nearly 300 prophecies in the OT and the Savior prophesied in Genesis 3.

Isaiah and Jeremiah again and again speak prophecy of judgment and destruction against the Gentile nations for their sin, how is that if the law was for the Hebrews alone?

The Mosaic Law was given to the Hebrews following their exodus from Egypt.

Exo 34:27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

You said that you "found" Jesus while looking for reasons to live, since then have you recognized that you need to be forgiven of your sins to be saved?

If you're asking if I'm assured of my salvation, the answer is yes. I searched for the One who presented Himself as this:

John 9:5 "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture

John 10:10 ....I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 7:37 ...."If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Luke 11:9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

John 8:12 .... "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

John 14:6 .... "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 10:9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

It seems the conviction of sin came with the appearance of the Holy Spirit and their sin was unbelief and rejection of Jesus.

John 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
John 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me.

So, you can see from the scriptures above Jesus came offering love, peace, joy, living water so one would never thirst, hope, freedom from bondage, mercy and abundant life. These things do not come through the Mosaic Law nor were they ever meant to. It was designed to teach a new nation right and fair treatment of others, the difference between intentional and unintentional sin, and appropriate penalty based on the severity of the crime.

What is higher than the standard of the Ten commandments?

LOVE.....God is Love
God so loved that He Gave...
A new commandment is that you love one another....

Oh if we only loved one another.....be kind....thoughtful....understanding...
To day we are so busy....we don"t have time.....
Time to think about no one but our seslves......

God's standard is to Love......not only our firends but our enemies.....those who don't love us....The Greates of all the commandments is to LOVE....be kind....be forgiving....Love our enemies.....
OH God of mercy God of Grace......guide us in your perfect ways....

Mrs. B

Yes, Mrs B... we have fallen short of LOVE, GRACE, TRUTH... etc... all of which is embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ... we have fallen short of the standard that was made by Jesus Christ...

For the law was given by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ - John 1:17

For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God

Mark F, I too understand where you are coming from.

My reason for putting out this thread is to show that we cannot fulfill the 10 commandments (Jesus Christ came to do that) and if they are not convinced by that, to consider scripture that God's standard is actually the standard set by Jesus Christ.

I have gone on to read more commentaries on Romans 3:23 and found that that is the actual full impact of the verse... That we have fallen short of not the 10 commandments but the glory of God

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Chris[/b]t to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that [b]came by Christ Jesus.

The Glory of God is not the 10 Commandments but Jesus Christ.

I think scripture is very clear on that.

But I understand where are you coming from... You want people to know they have fallen and you may very well use the 10 commandments to show them up but even to bring them into the kingdom of God when they ask for forgiveness of their sins (against God and his Glory none the less). But we also want people to fall in love with Jesus who is the only one perfect standard, who not all fulfilled all the laws and the prophets but also showed forth perfect Grace and Truth and Love and Mercy and Humility, and all the Fruit of the Spirit, and having perfectly the Mind of God... And much more...

That is the standard...

The reason why some people still seek often the 10 Commandments to fulfill them and some even fear losing their salvation each and every moment is because they think they can reach it.... Just as the Israelites were boastful and said All that The Lord commandment, we will do it!

But set the bar higher, and Romans 3:23 is the proof of scripture, and none will have audacity to think that and they will finally come to the resting place at the foot of the cross and say I am undone, only God can save me.

Keeping Alert wrote:Mark F, I too understand where you are coming from.

My reason for putting out this thread is to show that we cannot fulfill the 10 commandments (Jesus Christ came to do that) and if they are not convinced by that, to consider scripture that God's standard is actually the standard set by Jesus Christ.

I have gone on to read more commentaries on Romans 3:23 and found that that is the actual full impact of the verse... That we have fallen short of not the 10 commandments but the glory of God

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Chris[/b]t to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that [b]came by Christ Jesus.

The Glory of God is not the 10 Commandments but Jesus Christ.

I think scripture is very clear on that.

But I understand where are you coming from... You want people to know they have fallen and you may very well use the 10 commandments to show them up but even to bring them into the kingdom of God when they ask for forgiveness of their sins (against God and his Glory none the less). But we also want people to fall in love with Jesus who is the only one perfect standard, who not all fulfilled all the laws and the prophets but also showed forth perfect Grace and Truth and Love and Mercy and Humility, and all the Fruit of the Spirit, and having perfectly the Mind of God... And much more...

That is the standard...

The reason why some people still seek often the 10 Commandments to fulfill them and some even fear losing their salvation each and every moment is because they think they can reach it.... Just as the Israelites were boastful and said All that The Lord commandment, we will do it!

But set the bar higher, and Romans 3:23 is the proof of scripture, and none will have audacity to think that and they will finally come to the resting place at the foot of the cross and say I am undone, only God can save me.

Keeping Alert,

Yes I agree with what you have written. Jesus performed what we cannot.

You have a good day!