Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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Keeping Alert wrote:I am just thinking, if Grace is greater than Sin, then one act by us accepting Grace at any point in our lives should be more powerful and eefficacious to blot out all sins... even though we may continue to do "bad" things in our livesOnly if Grace is weaker than Sin, can there be a situation where Sin can undo what Grace had previously done
2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
Mrs. B wrote:Jesus paid our sin debt...If we sin willifully after coming to the knowledge of the truth...there is no remission for sin...we can not fall back....
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 6:2 ... How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
1John 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Romans 6:15-23
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1John 3:7,8
7. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
James 5:19,20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Hebrews 12:14,15 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God!
2Corinthians 6:17,18 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... luther.htm"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."
daffodyllady wrote:Now, I know I have stirred up a hornet's nest, and I know those of you who have been thoroughly brainwashed by this false doctrine will come storming out to stone me.
daffodyllady wrote:
The question "is grace greater than sin?" is not logically correct. Of course, everything about God is greater than anything human, or for that matter, demonic. But the greatness of God's attributes does not mean demons (and sin itself) are eliminated! Your argument necessitates that all lesser entities (and effects from those entities) are eliminated by the massiveness of greater entities (and their attributes.) .
mark s wrote:Hi KA,
It's occurred to me to ask, not just, is grace greater than sin, but, answering yes to that, to continue with, how is grace greater than sin?
And to that I'd have to answer along these lines . . .
The Law gives sin it's power (Romans 7), and imposed death upon us.
Grace frees us from the power of sin, by removing us from under the Law. Again, explained in Romans 7.
Which leads to Romans 8, who condemns us? Jesus intercedes for us. And we know all judgment was given to Jesus. So the one who would condemn has become our intercessor.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Keeping Alert wrote:But there is a case to be considered...
If one act of sin, prevented Adam from becoming righteous even by his works of future righteousness
Then if Grace is greater than Sin, one of act of Grace in one's life, should prevent one from becoming unrighteousness even by works of future unrighteousness
if you would take some time to ponder on what you are actually saying, I would submit that you are trying to say Grace is insufficient and incapable to survive a onslaught of Sin
And this is not my own thoughts... Romans 5:20 where Sin Abounds, Grace much more Abounds
Is this statement true or not?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
But if you go beyond that biblical application of grace, and attempt to apply it to sins not yet committed (and therefore not yet repented of) then you end up where Martin Luther did... "Let us sin, that grace may abound!"
Keeping Alert wrote:But if you go beyond that biblical application of grace, and attempt to apply it to sins not yet committed (and therefore not yet repented of) then you end up where Martin Luther did... "Let us sin, that grace may abound!"
I truly doubt Martin Luther said that... And he was probably taken out of context. And that is also definitely not what I am saying.
Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign.
What then, do you mean, when you say that "present sins" are forgiven once and for all, on the basis of a past repentance-forgiveness process? What are present sins? And for that matter, what are those future sins? Are they not sins that you plan on doing, thinking the Grace of God is NOT sufficient to keep you from falling into sinning again?No one in his right mind, as a Christian, who understands grace, would think of intentionally sinning. But Paul was misunderstood to have said that and they were shocked due to their faulty understanding if Paul's message of Grace... And Paul had to clarify....
On the other hand, the flip side, which seems to be what you are saying is "Let us NOT sin, because where Sin abounds, Grace CANNOT Much More Abound". Sin will terminate Grace, is what you seem to be saying... And no matter how you may want to qualify, it simply means this... That Sin is greater than Grace...
Jesus gives us power over sin....resist the devil and he will flee from you.....We are Given power over sin....Don't let sin in your mortal bodies.....the penitilitiy for sin is death.........But Jesus died for us so don't let sin in your life...resist the devil and he will flee from you.......But there is a sin unto death.........Glory Jesus gives us power over sin....
daffodyllady wrote: Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. There is no serious debate. It is found here in his preserved writings:Letter 99, Paragraph 13. Erika Bullmann Flores, Tr. from: Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften Dr. Johann Georg Walch Ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.), Vol. 15, cols. 2585-2590
daffodyllady wrote:No, instead of that, what I am saying , is that IF any man sin, he must repent immediately! God's grace is available for every single sin, the moment it is committed, IF that man will repent of it! But if he trusts (mistakenly) that grace somehow already forgave a sin he is in the process of committing (a "present sin!"), then he naturally will not see that sin as serious as he should. Therefore, presuming on God's grace, he does not see the necessity of repentance as deeply as he ought. Nor will he try to refrain from sin as he ought. After all... it was all forgiven long ago, anyhow!
The sheep are not those who have a personal righteousness gained through self effort and obedience to rules and regulations. The righteousness The Righteous Judge looks for is an attributed righteousness, judicially, or legally declared as causing all genuine believers to be justified, legally declared righteous in God's sight, and, most amazingly, even though their self effort appears anything but righteous.
daffodyllady wrote:Abiding, may I first finish this conversation with KA?
First of all... about Luther... he is so idealized, that many do not realize the horrific things he did do. Yes, he did nail those 95 Theses to that door, starting the Protestant Reformation. But during the time he led Germany, he hunted down and killed the Jews and all those who believed differently than he did. I'm not going to spend time arguing about this. It is easy to find, if you are willing to dig.Keeping Alert wrote:daffodyllady wrote:No, instead of that, what I am saying , is that IF any man sin, he must repent immediately! God's grace is available for every single sin, the moment it is committed, IF that man will repent of it! But if he trusts (mistakenly) that grace somehow already forgave a sin he is in the process of committing (a "present sin!"), then he naturally will not see that sin as serious as he should. Therefore, presuming on God's grace, he does not see the necessity of repentance as deeply as he ought. Nor will he try to refrain from sin as he ought. After all... it was all forgiven long ago, anyhow!
I have serious problems with this kind of repentance...
Consider Martin Luther since we talking about him... Martin Luther was so serious of repenting every sin that he would go to his priest every single moment to confess. His priest got so fed up with him that he asked him to go sin something serious and come back for confession.
Even if you could really confession and repent of every single sin of commission and omission but then you have to pray you did not commit any sin of ignorance which is no excuse. And as I mentioned before, everything that is not of faith is sin... are we 100% faithful and full of faith? Do we know what we did in faith and what we did not do in faith? If not, then we do not know when we sin and we do not...how can we repent of things that we do not know...
Amo 5:21-26 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
BUt there is one thing I can repent and that is while previously I did not believe Jesus was my Savior, now I do and I cling completely to his Grace to pull me through...
Rom 8:38&39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Abiding in His Word wrote:daffodyllady wrote:Abiding, may I first finish this conversation with KA?
Of course, daffodyllady! But if you are implying that others shouldn't participate and you'd rather this thread be exclusively between you and KA, perhaps you should continue in a private message rather than the debate forum. Others should feel welcome to post their contributions to the topic as has always been the option afforded all members outside of the three rapture forums.
daffodyllady wrote:No, all I am saying is that KA and I are in the middle of a honest discussion, with mutual respect. I don't want this to develop into a pile-on.
Carry on... but should I or any other member have something to contribute to the topic, please know that I or any other member will/should feel free to do so. Again, if you wish to maintain a 1:1 discussion, the debate forum is not really the place to do it.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus said to him, I say not to you, Until seven times, but Until seventy times seven.
Luke 17:3,4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
daffodyllady wrote:God extends forgiveness to us, but we have to repent, even repeatedly, every time we sin, to complete that cycle of forgiveness, to repair the relationship.
Keeping Alert wrote:It is precisely that God will be eternally forgiving towards his children that his children are to do the same...
Put it in another way... Can any sin stop God's Grace to forgive his children? Remember the weaker cannot stop the greater; only the greater can stop the weaker.
Keeping Alert wrote:But even for relationship, didn't Paul said Nothing can separate us from the love of God? (Romans 8)
daffodyllady wrote:Keeping Alert wrote:But even for relationship, didn't Paul said Nothing can separate us from the love of God? (Romans 8)
I have already given scriptures that dealt with that idea.
I feel I am going in circles and wasting my time in here again.
We ask God to not lead us into temptation because we are likely to sin when led into the things that tempt our desires.
Part of God's grace is to not lead us into those things that will cause us to sin. Sometimes He does, else we would not have to ask him not to do so. My experience is: when He does, He is teaching me about myself and removing my self delusions, both good and bad. It is by His grace that I am not led into temptation and also by his grace that he leads me into temptation (or lets me go my way until I learn better). Grace is a lot more than just forgiveness; it is an act of love for our benefit even should we suffer for a short time. We live by His grace, the food we eat every day though we want to think we have earned it, the debts that are forgiven, and the sins He keeps our feet from.
GodsStudent wrote:We ask God to not lead us into temptation because we are likely to sin when led into the things that tempt our desires.
Part of God's grace is to not lead us into those things that will cause us to sin. Sometimes He does, else we would not have to ask him not to do so. My experience is: when He does, He is teaching me about myself and removing my self delusions, both good and bad. It is by His grace that I am not led into temptation and also by his grace that he leads me into temptation (or lets me go my way until I learn better). Grace is a lot more than just forgiveness; it is an act of love for our benefit even should we suffer for a short time. We live by His grace, the food we eat every day though we want to think we have earned it, the debts that are forgiven, and the sins He keeps our feet from.
Well done.
A lifestyle is sin is not the same thing as an act of sin. You can't be saved and keep on living like hell.
In verse 6 : I highlighted walk...it is to continue in sin....to say you are in fellowship and continue in sin...where is the line....I hesitate to pick a sin, but I will pick one that is familiar...
Keeping Alert wrote:A thought came to my mind... I know not from God or my own...
Which is greater? Sin or Grace?
One act of Adam condemned him and the whole world into sin.
So ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God...
One act of sin committed by us, confirms our sinner status... even though we may do "good" things in our lives
One act of Jesus on the cross, released Grace and Salvation to the whole world
I am just thinking, if Grace is greater than Sin, then one act by us accepting Grace at any point in our lives should be more powerful and eefficacious to blot out all sins... even though we may continue to do "bad" things in our lives
Only if Grace is weaker than Sin, can there be a situation where Sin can undo what Grace had previously done
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Which is greater? Sin or Grace?
One act of Adam condemned him and the whole world into sin.
So ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God...
One act of sin committed by us, confirms our sinner status... even though we may do "good" things in our lives
I am just thinking, if Grace is greater than Sin, then one act by us accepting Grace at any point in our lives should be more powerful and eefficacious to blot out all sins... even though we may continue to do "bad" things in our lives
Only if Grace is weaker than Sin, can there be a situation where Sin can undo what Grace had previously done
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