Which is greater?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:17 pm

A thought came to my mind... I know not from God or my own...

Which is greater? Sin or Grace?

One act of Adam condemned him and the whole world into sin.

So ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God...

One act of sin committed by us, confirms our sinner status... even though we may do "good" things in our lives

One act of Jesus on the cross, released Grace and Salvation to the whole world

I am just thinking, if Grace is greater than Sin, then one act by us accepting Grace at any point in our lives should be more powerful and eefficacious to blot out all sins... even though we may continue to do "bad" things in our lives

Only if Grace is weaker than Sin, can there be a situation where Sin can undo what Grace had previously done

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:29 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:I am just thinking, if Grace is greater than Sin, then one act by us accepting Grace at any point in our lives should be more powerful and eefficacious to blot out all sins... even though we may continue to do "bad" things in our livesOnly if Grace is weaker than Sin, can there be a situation where Sin can undo what Grace had previously done


Hi KA,

Great thinking process into your question on this thread.

Of course the answer to the question you ask may be rhetorical - as you well know what Jesus informed Paul, when Paul asked Jesus to take a particular sin from him:

2 Corinthians 12:9 - And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.


I believe that the aforementioned verse of Scripture alone clearly sets the precedence as far as any one particular sin. We are Children of God. At some point, if you really think about it - there may be many Believers who have died without "Repenting" of a particular sin prior to death occurring. Does that mean that they lost their Salvation? I think NOT.

"His Grace is Sufficient" - therefore it is Greater!
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:18 am

Indeed, Mr Baldy.

God's Grace is Sufficient.

And by one act of receiving that Grace, it is sufficient to blot out all sins past, present and future...

Adam too committed one act of sin and that was sufficient to blot out all "good deeds" that he may do then or future... No amount of repenting and recanting could make him righteous again...

If Grace is indeed greater than Sin, then effect of Grace that it brings about salvation cannot dim with time in the person even though as sure as the sun rises from the east, he will sin... Some to greater sins, some to lesser sins... But where sin abounds, grace much more abounds...

Sin cannot overwhelm grace at any point of time once received, otherwise, grace has lost to sin... Which is impossible! Hallelujah!
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Mrs. B on Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:43 am

Which is Greater?

Read Hebrews chapter 10.....

Heb 10:15...Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16....This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17....And their sins and iniquities willl I remember No More...26....For if WE sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,....There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27...But a Certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries, 28...He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29....Of How Much sore punishment, suppose ye...shall he be though worthy, who hath Trodden Under Foot the Son of God and hath counted the Blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an Unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace???
30...For we know him that hath said, Vengeance Belongeth unto me...I will recompense, saith the Lord...And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31...It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God...
38...Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39...But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul...

We must Be obedient to the Spirit of God....we can not allow sin in our lives....that is why we need to stay in fellowship and in Church where we hear the Living Word.....We are kept when we keep the word of God.....we cannot turn back or fall away.....He that endures to the end shall be saved.....

Jesus paid our sin debt...If we sin willifully after coming to the knowledge of the truth...there is no remission for sin...we can not fall back....It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God...He that endures to the end shall be saved...

Mrs. B
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:18 am

Mrs. B wrote:Jesus paid our sin debt...If we sin willifully after coming to the knowledge of the truth...there is no remission for sin...we can not fall back....


So sin is greater than grace, Mrs. B?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:27 am

Just because Grace is greater than sin, doesn't mean grace will cover things God has not clearly stated it will cover.

The word says clearly
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


If we extend this to mean "sins that are present" and "sins that are future," then we find ourselves leaning on our own understanding, instead of on the Word of God.

Why cannot it extend to sins of the present? Because SAYING we are sorry for our sins, while continuing in them, is NOT REPENTANCE!

True repentance is not feelings, nor is it only words. There are many Scriptures that bear witness to this truth. True repentance affects our actions. In fact, the Greek word for repentance means literally to think differently. If you truly think differently, you will act differently!

Why cannot it extend to sins of the future?
Because sins of the future do not yet exist. At the moment of commission, they shall exist as a sin of that present time. And that sin, as long as it is not repented from, is not forgiven!

I have heard over and over, that we are such depraved people, that it is impossible for humans, even after we have repented, to live without sinning. But that is absolute hogwash, according to the Word of God!

Romans 6:2 ... How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
1John 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Meditate on the practical truth of the following verses:
Romans 6:15-23
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


What passes for repentance these days is a tragedy. We encourage people to "repeat after me" a few words, and then tell them they have gotten a complete heart-change! These people go back out, and continue doing the same stuff they used to do, thinking they have been saved, even though they continue in their sins!

This is not the way the church used to operate.
I have witnessed sinners weeping at an altar service for a long, long time, confessing their sins, and "praying through" until a divine work transpired, lifting their guilt, and setting them free. I have seen drug addicts set free and alcoholics completely delivered on the spot. These people do not continue in their sin. They are set free!

You say we are guilty of sins we don't even know we are committing?
What Bible verse do you base that on? That sounds like philosophy, not Bible.
How about these verses?
1John 3:7,8
7. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

My God tells me that the Holy Ghost leads men to repentance. He is given specifically to the church, as our counselor. Are you telling me that He will not convict a Christian if that Christian commits a sin? Of course He will. You can trust Him to tell you if you are out of line!

You say that God's Grace covers sin that we willfully continue in? Then how can these words be true?
James 5:19,20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


1. Even saved people do sometimes turn away from the truth.
2. When a saved person turns to an erroneous WAY, he becomes a sinner.
3. The soul of this sinner (who used to be a saint) is DEAD.
4. And as long as he continues in his present sin, his sins are NOT HIDDEN. He must repent, before (1) his soul can be saved from death, and (2) his sins can be hidden.

You say we cannot know our own hearts? It is true the way of man is not in himself, to direct his steps. And it is true that a wicked heart cannot know its own sinfulness, without the grace of God opening his spiritual eyes.

However, once a person is saved, his heart is no longer wicked. Don't apply verses to truly saved people, which obviously are written about those who do not love God!

What exactly is sin? Is it some nebulous, undefinable condition of all humans until they get to heaven? Or is it an act a person can commit? I contend it is an act, which is committed out of the condition of an evil heart. Because as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he!

God does not deal in nebulous, theological terms. He deals with us on practical terms. He does not ask for mental assent to ideas that do not translate into practical lifestyle. God demands instead a life of holiness, instead of sin.
Hebrews 12:14,15 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God!

2Corinthians 6:17,18 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Modern Calvinism is the fruit of Saint Augustine's pre-Christian pagan beliefs in The Fates. Prior to Augustine, Calvinistic theological beliefs were nowhere found anywhere in early church writings. But post-Augustine, what has come to be known as Calvinism, became a strain of thought down through church history. Luther was an Augustinian monk, and thoroughly indoctrinated. That is why he said to his friends,
"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... luther.htm

...
Now, I know I have stirred up a hornet's nest, and I know those of you who have been thoroughly brainwashed by this false doctrine will come storming out to stone me.
I am not going to engage in argumentation.
God forbids that.

But He does tell us to speak the truth.
So that is what I have done.
God's Word will find a place to take root, in the heart that is soft enough to receive it.
Last edited by daffodyllady on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Daffodyllady
Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will recieve you... Abstain from all appearance of evil...Without holiness shall no man see the Lord.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Mrs. B on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:02 am

Which is greater?

Daffodylady.......Very well spoken......I agree

The penility for sin is death.....But God in His love for us sent His Only Begotton Son..Jesus to pay our sin debt...If we confess our sin and repent....He is faithful to forgive us our sin....BUT if we continue in Sin there is Now Therefore no more forgivness of Sin....but a firey will Jesus again die for your sin if you continue it....NO there is therfore now forgivness....

God's Love by sending HIs Son Once.....if we refuse Him and continue in sin....There is therefore no forgivness....

Hebrews 6:4...For it is Impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift (Jesus) and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5....And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6...IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE: SEEING THEY crucify to themselves the son of GOD afresh, and put Him to An OPEN SHAME....

He gives us power over sin.....But if we willfuly sin or continue to sin there is no renewing them again.......


THAT IS WHAT THE WORD SAYS....Mrs. B
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:22 pm

Daffodylady, no problem stirring up a hornets nest... Just as long we don't get stung! :lol:

I have seen you thesis on this before and we might even have traded hornets before! :eek: But all I will say for now is to go for the clear passages...

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand.

That to me is all I need...Eternal means eternal... Not something less than that; never means never... And no-one means no one... And that if you study it includes self and definitely the devil... Unless self is greater than God, we cannot be plucked out of his hand....

All the passages you quoted if viewed in view of clear, unequivocal passages like this, is understandable to mean other things than what you tried to prove...

Mrs B, you say if we continue to sin or willfully sin, there is no forgiveness of sins... What does that really mean?

Let's see what the bible says about sin....

Romans 14:23 Whatever is not of faith is sin

Question is do we not continue to sin in this area or are we fully mountain moving, multitude healing people of God? Because Jesus said if we have faith of a mustard seed we should be able to move mountains and whatsoever we pray it shall be answered. So obviously, we continue to sin and perhaps knowingly sin the sin of the lack of faith... Is there forgiveness for such a one? Or have we all lost our salvation?

But lest we derail this thread, the question remains that if Grace is greater than Sin, How can anyone sin to derail grace?

Please think about carefully. could Adam undo his sin by doing works of righteousness? Nope.

Similarly I am asking, can we undo Grace by doing works of unrighteousness?

If you answer yes, then you are saying Sin is greater than Grace, no matter how you slice it and no matter how many bible passages you may throw at me (which can be explained away simply when we see the big picture like this)

But I dare say no one will dare to say Sin is greater than Grace... But throw in a ton of bible verses from everywhere, and suddenly if we are not careful, we land up at this very conclusion without knowing it.

Keep it simple...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby mark s on Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:54 pm

daffodyllady wrote:Now, I know I have stirred up a hornet's nest, and I know those of you who have been thoroughly brainwashed by this false doctrine will come storming out to stone me.


Hi Daffodyllady,

Actually, I found your post very well thought out, and well written, if perhaps incomplete. I think there is a lot more that needs to be taken into account. Of course, I'm certain you know I disagree. But what concerns me is that this is the second time you've mentioned that the expected response will be a stoning.

I'd like to say in regards to "brainwashing", I believe that I hold my views as honestly and thoughtfully as you hold yours. If we start just saying each other is brainwashed, then what?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:21 pm

Well, KA, in regards to "no man can snatch them out of my hand." I would ask a Greek scholar about it. Is the Greek verb "to snatch" in a "self-to-self" form? If not, then we are in error applying it that way.

The question "is grace greater than sin?" is not logically correct. Of course, everything about God is greater than anything human, or for that matter, demonic. But the greatness of God's attributes does not mean demons (and sin itself) are eliminated! Your argument necessitates that all lesser entities (and effects from those entities) are eliminated by the massiveness of greater entities (and their attributes.)

...
Mark... I suppose I shouldn't approach it so self-defensively. I have just gotten overwhelmed by the argumentation that goes on endlessly in here... to the point of wanting to keep my mouth shut when it comes to doctrinal things like this. But I simply cannot sit still when false doctrine is preached. I know, the arguments shall commence, and it shall get heated. It happens that way every time. I just had to state my case, planning to leave it there.
Daffodyllady
Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will recieve you... Abstain from all appearance of evil...Without holiness shall no man see the Lord.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby mark s on Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:27 pm

Hi KA,

It's occurred to me to ask, not just, is grace greater than sin, but, answering yes to that, to continue with, how is grace greater than sin?

And to that I'd have to answer along these lines . . .

The Law gives sin it's power (Romans 7), and imposed death upon us.

Grace frees us from the power of sin, by removing us from under the Law. Again, explained in Romans 7.

Which leads to Romans 8, who condemns us? Jesus intercedes for us. And we know all judgment was given to Jesus. So the one who would condemn has become our intercessor.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:00 pm

daffodyllady wrote:
The question "is grace greater than sin?" is not logically correct. Of course, everything about God is greater than anything human, or for that matter, demonic. But the greatness of God's attributes does not mean demons (and sin itself) are eliminated! Your argument necessitates that all lesser entities (and effects from those entities) are eliminated by the massiveness of greater entities (and their attributes.) .


But there is a case to be considered...

If one act of sin, prevented Adam from becoming righteous even by his works of future righteousness

Then if Grace is greater than Sin, one of act of Grace in one's life, should prevent one from becoming unrighteousness even by works of future unrighteousness

if you would take some time to ponder on what you are actually saying, I would submit that you are trying to say Grace is insufficient and incapable to survive a onslaught of Sin

And this is not my own thoughts... Romans 5:20 where Sin Abounds, Grace much more Abounds

Is this statement true or not?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:06 pm

mark s wrote:Hi KA,

It's occurred to me to ask, not just, is grace greater than sin, but, answering yes to that, to continue with, how is grace greater than sin?

And to that I'd have to answer along these lines . . .

The Law gives sin it's power (Romans 7), and imposed death upon us.

Grace frees us from the power of sin, by removing us from under the Law. Again, explained in Romans 7.

Which leads to Romans 8, who condemns us? Jesus intercedes for us. And we know all judgment was given to Jesus. So the one who would condemn has become our intercessor.

Love in Christ,
Mark


Indeed Mark! There are indeed many more underlying reasons... Can one indeed be born again, be not born again by sinning? Can we become the old creature after becoming a new creation in Christ? I would submit that we have put our confidence in the wrong place... We have more confidence that Sin will defeat us than Grace will deliver us from Sin!
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:44 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:But there is a case to be considered...

If one act of sin, prevented Adam from becoming righteous even by his works of future righteousness

Then if Grace is greater than Sin, one of act of Grace in one's life, should prevent one from becoming unrighteousness even by works of future unrighteousness

if you would take some time to ponder on what you are actually saying, I would submit that you are trying to say Grace is insufficient and incapable to survive a onslaught of Sin

And this is not my own thoughts... Romans 5:20 where Sin Abounds, Grace much more Abounds

Is this statement true or not?



This grace that Paul is speaking of, is the grace that covers "sins that are past." Not "present and future sins."

Sins that are past, can be repented of, and therefore are overpowered by "Grace, grace, God's grace, Grace that is greater than all my sin."

But if you go beyond that biblical application of grace, and attempt to apply it to sins not yet committed (and therefore not yet repented of) then you end up where Martin Luther did... "Let us sin, that grace may abound!"

The grace of God is always greater than sin.

But God's grace, no matter how great it is, is not extended by God to cover sins that we have not repented from. Please read the entire passage posted below, as one cohesive dissertation:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.


Those who cast away their faith (confidence) will not receive the promise. Why? Because the Lord will judge His people.

Those who once were sanctified by the blood, but who turned and left that path, shall face a fearful punishment. A much sorer punishment than that which befell the Lord's own who forsook Him under the Old Covenant. That punishment involves fiery indignation.

Sounds like hellfire to me.
For those who were once sanctified... but who trampled that blood underfoot...

For the very ones who counted on the greatness of God's grace to cover present and future sins... thinking that repenting once was all that was needed, to make it through.

It ain't so, folks.
Daffodyllady
Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will recieve you... Abstain from all appearance of evil...Without holiness shall no man see the Lord.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:40 pm

Sins that are past, can be repented of, and therefore are overpowered by "Grace, grace, God's grace, Grace that is greater than all my sin."

That's just it, daffodylady. one sin condemned Adam against any future good works undoing his one sin... if Grace cannot :oops: undo any future sins after that one act of receiving Grace, then Grace cannot be greater than Sin...

The Hebrew passage you quote is frequently quoted to prove your case but like I said, my mind is very simple... the clear unequivocal passage like John 10 cannot be contradicted obscure passages like Hebrews 10. eternal is not difficult to understand. never is not hard to understand. no one is not difficult to understand. hebrews is theologically challenging for the common reader...

i undrrstand where you are coming from, but all you have said just confirms that you believe Sin is greater than Grace, even though your words say otherwise
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:18 am

But if you go beyond that biblical application of grace, and attempt to apply it to sins not yet committed (and therefore not yet repented of) then you end up where Martin Luther did... "Let us sin, that grace may abound!"


I truly doubt Martin Luther said that... And he was probably taken out of context. And that is also definitely not what I am saying.

No one in his right mind, as a Christian, who understands grace, would think of intentionally sinning. But Paul was misunderstood to have said that and they were shocked due to their faulty understanding if Paul's message of Grace... And Paul had to clarify....

On the other hand, the flip side, which seems to be what you are saying is "Let us NOT sin, because where Sin abounds, Grace CANNOT Much More Abound". Sin will terminate Grace, is what you seem to be saying... And no matter how you may want to qualify, it simply means this... That Sin is greater than Grace...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:24 am

.
Last edited by daffodyllady on Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:31 am

Keeping Alert wrote:
But if you go beyond that biblical application of grace, and attempt to apply it to sins not yet committed (and therefore not yet repented of) then you end up where Martin Luther did... "Let us sin, that grace may abound!"


I truly doubt Martin Luther said that... And he was probably taken out of context. And that is also definitely not what I am saying.

As to whether or not Martin Luther said:

Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign.


There is no serious debate. It is found here in his preserved writings:

Letter 99, Paragraph 13. Erika Bullmann Flores, Tr. from: Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften Dr. Johann Georg Walch Ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.), Vol. 15, cols. 2585-2590
No one in his right mind, as a Christian, who understands grace, would think of intentionally sinning. But Paul was misunderstood to have said that and they were shocked due to their faulty understanding if Paul's message of Grace... And Paul had to clarify....
What then, do you mean, when you say that "present sins" are forgiven once and for all, on the basis of a past repentance-forgiveness process? What are present sins? And for that matter, what are those future sins? Are they not sins that you plan on doing, thinking the Grace of God is NOT sufficient to keep you from falling into sinning again?

On the other hand, the flip side, which seems to be what you are saying is "Let us NOT sin, because where Sin abounds, Grace CANNOT Much More Abound". Sin will terminate Grace, is what you seem to be saying... And no matter how you may want to qualify, it simply means this... That Sin is greater than Grace...


No, instead of that, what I am saying , is that IF any man sin, he must repent immediately! God's grace is available for every single sin, the moment it is committed, IF that man will repent of it! But if he trusts (mistakenly) that grace somehow already forgave a sin he is in the process of committing (a "present sin!"), then he naturally will not see that sin as serious as he should. Therefore, presuming on God's grace, he does not see the necessity of repentance as deeply as he ought. Nor will he try to refrain from sin as he ought. After all... it was all forgiven long ago, anyhow!
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Mrs. B on Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:15 pm

Which is greater?

I John 5:16.....If any man see his brother sin a sin which Is Not Unto Death...he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin NOT Unto death....There is a sin Unto Death: I Do Not say that he shall pray for it...
NOTICE there is a Sin Unto Death...

17...All Unrighteousness is sin:
and there is a Sin Not unto death...
18...We know that whosoever is Born of God Sinneth Not; but he that is begotten of God Keepeth Himself, and that wicked one toucheth Him Not...

19...And we know that we are of God, and the whole World lieth in wickedness.
20...And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding...that we may know Him that is True,

and we are in Him that is True...even in His Son Jesus Christ...This is the True God, and Eternal life...

21....LITTLE CHILDREN, KEEP YOURSELVES FROM IDOLS (sIN)....AMEN

Jesus gives us power over sin....resist the devil and he will flee from you.....We are Given power over sin....Don't let sin in your mortal bodies.....the penitilitiy for sin is death.........But Jesus died for us so don't let sin in your life...resist the devil and he will flee from you.......But there is a sin unto death.........Glory Jesus gives us power over sin....

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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:56 pm

Jesus gives us power over sin....resist the devil and he will flee from you.....We are Given power over sin....Don't let sin in your mortal bodies.....the penitilitiy for sin is death.........But Jesus died for us so don't let sin in your life...resist the devil and he will flee from you.......But there is a sin unto death.........Glory Jesus gives us power over sin....


So at some point, I will be sinless because I resisted the devil, didn't let sin reign in my mortal body, and applied power over sin?

And God has got a scoreboard to keep track of my failures so if I die (having not asked forgiveness for a couple sins) I will be denied eternal happiness forever?

Sarcasm alert***

He's making a list and checking it twice. He's gonna find out who's naughty and nice. /sarcasm

Couldn't resist... :( It's not really funny, but tragically sad how we (like John Piper) think God is filing away our good deeds in one file and our bad ones in another. He never forgets...

or does He?

Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more"
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Mrs. B on Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:40 pm

Which is Greater?

John 14:23....Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me.....he will keep my words:
and my Father will love him,
and we will come unto him,
and make our abode with him.

24....He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
and the Word which ye hear is not mine, But the Father's which sent me....
25...These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you...

26...BUT the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you..

20...At that day ye shall know that I Am in my Father, and Ye in Me, and I in you.
21...He that hath my commandments, and Keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that h loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him...

22...Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is is that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23...Jesus answered and said unto him...If a man Love Me, he will KEEP MY WORDS: AND MY FATHER WILLL LOVE HIM, AND WE WILL COME UNTO HIM, AND MAKE OUR ABODE WITH HIM...

26...BUT the Comforter, Which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My Name....He shall teach you all things...and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you....

John 13....Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;; But whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come...
14...He shall Glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you....

The Holy Spirit of Truth send from the Father on the Day of Penticost....The Holy Spirit Promise....give us new life..the God life and reveals all truth to us by the Spirit the Holy Spirit and the Living Word....ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free....marvel not that I say..Ye Must be Born Again...that which is flesh is flesh...and that which is Spirit is Spirit....God the Father has sent to us the Believer the Holy Spirit that gives us power over sin, death hell and the grave.....Glory.... He keeps us from sin.....if we follow Him...He gives us power over sin....that we sin not...
That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit....He gives us His Holy Spirit and power over sin, death, hell and the grave....by our faith and believing the Living Word...

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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:54 pm

daffodyllady wrote: Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. There is no serious debate. It is found here in his preserved writings:Letter 99, Paragraph 13. Erika Bullmann Flores, Tr. from: Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften Dr. Johann Georg Walch Ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.), Vol. 15, cols. 2585-2590


Looking at this passage, I still have serious suspicions that the quote is taken out of context...

daffodyllady wrote:No, instead of that, what I am saying , is that IF any man sin, he must repent immediately! God's grace is available for every single sin, the moment it is committed, IF that man will repent of it! But if he trusts (mistakenly) that grace somehow already forgave a sin he is in the process of committing (a "present sin!"), then he naturally will not see that sin as serious as he should. Therefore, presuming on God's grace, he does not see the necessity of repentance as deeply as he ought. Nor will he try to refrain from sin as he ought. After all... it was all forgiven long ago, anyhow!


I have serious problems with this kind of repentance...

Consider Martin Luther since we talking about him... Martin Luther was so serious of repenting every sin that he would go to his priest every single moment to confess. His priest got so fed up with him that he asked him to go sin something serious and come back for confession.

Even if you could really confession and repent of every single sin of commission and omission but then you have to pray you did not commit any sin of ignorance which is no excuse. And as I mentioned before, everything that is not of faith is sin... are we 100% faithful and full of faith? Do we know what we did in faith and what we did not do in faith? If not, then we do not know when we sin and we do not...how can we repent of things that we do not know...

BUt there is one thing I can repent and that is while previously I did not believe Jesus was my Savior, now I do and I cling completely to his Grace to pull me through...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:19 am

The sheep are not those who have a personal righteousness gained through self effort and obedience to rules and regulations. The righteousness The Righteous Judge looks for is an attributed righteousness, judicially, or legally declared as causing all genuine believers to be justified, legally declared righteous in God's sight, and, most amazingly, even though their self effort appears anything but righteous.


link

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Gal_2:21

....that I may gain Christ,
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith...Php 3:9

For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Rom 10:3-4


We run the risk of making the NT a system of laws, i.e. musts, have to's, oughts, shoulds, etc. when we make our righteousness, justification, and sanctification the result of our own performance.

:bowing:
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:05 am

Abiding, may I first finish this conversation with KA?
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:40 am

daffodyllady wrote:Abiding, may I first finish this conversation with KA?


Of course, daffodyllady! But if you are implying that others shouldn't participate and you'd rather this thread be exclusively between you and KA, perhaps you should continue in a private message rather than the debate forum. Others should feel welcome to post their contributions to the topic as has always been the option afforded all members outside of the three rapture forums.

:humm:
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:44 am

Keeping Alert wrote:
daffodyllady wrote:No, instead of that, what I am saying , is that IF any man sin, he must repent immediately! God's grace is available for every single sin, the moment it is committed, IF that man will repent of it! But if he trusts (mistakenly) that grace somehow already forgave a sin he is in the process of committing (a "present sin!"), then he naturally will not see that sin as serious as he should. Therefore, presuming on God's grace, he does not see the necessity of repentance as deeply as he ought. Nor will he try to refrain from sin as he ought. After all... it was all forgiven long ago, anyhow!


I have serious problems with this kind of repentance...

Consider Martin Luther since we talking about him... Martin Luther was so serious of repenting every sin that he would go to his priest every single moment to confess. His priest got so fed up with him that he asked him to go sin something serious and come back for confession.
First of all... about Luther... he is so idealized, that many do not realize the horrific things he did do. Yes, he did nail those 95 Theses to that door, starting the Protestant Reformation. But during the time he led Germany, he hunted down and killed the Jews and all those who believed differently than he did. I'm not going to spend time arguing about this. It is easy to find, if you are willing to dig.

Even if you could really confession and repent of every single sin of commission and omission but then you have to pray you did not commit any sin of ignorance which is no excuse. And as I mentioned before, everything that is not of faith is sin... are we 100% faithful and full of faith? Do we know what we did in faith and what we did not do in faith? If not, then we do not know when we sin and we do not...how can we repent of things that we do not know...

In the Old Testament, The Day of Atonement sacrifice was to cover all unintentional sins and honest mistakes. God obviously requires repentance from all sin that we know about. But there is no way we can know every single thing we have done.

That's why Jesus died for us, to give us freedom from an overactive conscience. We can trust His blood has washed away those sins we don't realize we have done.

(And furthermore, we can trust that the Holy Spirit, who leads us to repentance, will do His job. We don't have to live in doubt that we might have offended him unknowingly, and that He won't tell us. That was Martin Luther's initial problem; he doubted the goodness of God, to lead him to repentance. So he lived in fear, not trusting in the goodness of God.)

But don't confuse known sin with unknown sin. The Day of Atonement sacrifice did not cover those sins the people knew they were committing, and continued willfully to do. That's why God eventually told the Israelites;
Amo 5:21-26 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?
But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

The typology is clear: If we sin willfully, trusting in the blood of Jesus to cover willful sin, there is no sacrifice, not even under the New Covenant, to cover that kind of rebellion. God hates such presumption, to think that He would wink at open rebellion! And yes, those who have named the name of Christ are able to fall into open rebellion against God. I am sure you have seen it happen.

BUt there is one thing I can repent and that is while previously I did not believe Jesus was my Savior, now I do and I cling completely to his Grace to pull me through...

And here, we are on the same page, brother! I know my own efforts do not save me, nor do they keep me saved. I trust in the grace of God to keep me.
Rom 8:38&39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


But He won't keep me against my own will. Notice the action of the verb there. In the Greek, the action of the verb is even more emphatic. This is talking about an action something other-than-self attempts to do to us. THEY cannot separate me. But I can, by knowingly trampling underfoot the blood of Christ, wherewith I was once sanctified.

It is easy for us to fall into the trap of asking, "But how do we know when someone has gone too far into known sin?" We don't. Only God knows the hearts. But if someone knows they are sinning against better knowledge, it is up to them to repent and not presume on the grace and mercy of God. Because there are plenty of warnings that it is possible to fall away... even to the point of not being able to come back.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:51 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
daffodyllady wrote:Abiding, may I first finish this conversation with KA?


Of course, daffodyllady! But if you are implying that others shouldn't participate and you'd rather this thread be exclusively between you and KA, perhaps you should continue in a private message rather than the debate forum. Others should feel welcome to post their contributions to the topic as has always been the option afforded all members outside of the three rapture forums.

:humm:


No, all I am saying is that KA and I are in the middle of a honest discussion, with mutual respect. I don't want this to develop into a pile-on.

If two people are standing in a room full of others, and are in a deep discussion with each other, they don't have to go into another room to be allowed to talk with each other. Others can listen in, or even develop discussion around them, with each other. It is only respectful, if you are interested in what they are saying, to stand quietly without interrupting, to listen while they talk.

But if you jump in aggressively, and take one side in a sarcastic tone, you can expect one of them to quietly leave, or fall silent.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:45 am

daffodyllady wrote:No, all I am saying is that KA and I are in the middle of a honest discussion, with mutual respect. I don't want this to develop into a pile-on.


Carry on... but should I or any other member have something to contribute to the topic, please know that I or any other member will/should feel free to do so. Again, if you wish to maintain a 1:1 discussion, the debate forum is not really the place to do it.

If you were directing the words "aggressively" and "sarcastic" to my comments, you should know after all these years that I'm not given to flowery posts, but rather a straight-shooter that hopefully gets right to the point. We've discussed sarcasm several times and noted that it's one of the methods used by Paul to make a point. Provided it's used that way, it's not a negative any more than hyperbole, exaggeration, or other idioms used in scripture.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby burien1 on Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:12 am

Carry on... but should I or any other member have something to contribute to the topic, please know that I or any other member will/should feel free to do so. Again, if you wish to maintain a 1:1 discussion, the debate forum is not really the place to do it.


Agreed !

This IS a discussion board. Anyone and everyone can put forth their opinion except in 3 designated zones.

PM's are for private conversations if someone wishes for the privacy of one on one debate.
Psalm 119:105; Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby readyornot on Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:40 am

This kind of reminds me of my struggle many years ago in determining the right way to view water baptism. I love my church of Christ brothers/sisters, but I decided that a person is saved if they have put their trust/faith in Jesus to cleanse them from their sins, even if they die before they get baptized. I really struggled with this theological point for at least a couple of years while I was in Bible college. There seemed to be scriptures used to argue both ways. I was actually frustrated with God for allowing this controversy about something so basic, i.e., how you get saved, to exist, using His Word. I don't want to derail this topic into that debate. I just find it parallels that process for me.

Having struggled with more than one besetting sin most of my life, and also working professionally as a therapist who has tried to understand others, I just see our sin nature as soooo pervasive. Such a deceitful heart we have. I can't imagine living a day without my flesh battling my spirit. I have even prayed for God to forgive me of some of my dreams, which I don't think I can control. I can't wait to rid myself of this filthy flesh and live completely free of all sinful thoughts and inclinations in my new glorified body.

I do understand the distinction between known and unknown/unrecognized sin. That does matter. And, through my years of struggling with sin, I have come to conclude that there is, indeed, a way of escape for every known temptation to sin. We just usually look the other way as we sail on by it. Scripture in Hebrews can be controversial. I have stirred the pot with others before because I do not believe "once saved, always saved" (OSAS). I do believe we can apostasize with our free will. However, I believe it can happen only once and it is way more than a belligerent sin. I think that is what is being referred to regarding there not being another sacrifice. The unforgiveable sin is rejecting Christ after you have been saved, I mean really rejecting Him, something that probably takes years to do. I used to doubt this even occurs until I contemplated people who have gone to, and work at, big league divinity schools. I think some of them may have actually really been saved at some point in their lives. Even in this, though, I acknowledge that I could be wrong. Like the pre-trib rapture, it would be nice to believe in OSAS, but so far I can't do it with the mind and data that God has given me. But I admit I could be wrong.

For me, it gets down to this. I am more afraid these days of when I sin than I used to be. And, I truly hunger and thirst for righteousness in a way that I could not as a younger man. But, I'm not afraid of hellfire. I'm afraid of broken communion with God, especially in these last days. I need Him. I need Him for everything. For giving me health and work to do to provide for my family. For wisdom about how to live, for finding my keys when I've lost them....everything! I fear the anxiety that wells up within me when I have turned from God. That all drives me to repentance, plus many other things. Do I repent every time I sin as soon as I know I have sinned? No. I do eventually. Sometimes it takes me a while to build the effort up through my shame to approach Him, repenting again. And that's a whole 'nother subject: what really is repentance. I've struggled with that one, too. If I've really turned away from my sin, and not just said I'm sorry because I feel bad about it, why do I find myself "repenting" of the same sin, over and over again? I have worked through this, and am still doing so. I know I have changed over the years, but will never be completely changed until my final redemption. I think God wants us to struggle, for various reasons. I know I love Him way more now, I think. I hope I am not deceiving myself. I feel like Peter when Jesus asked him three times, Do you love me? Yes, Lord (with tears), you know my heart better than I do. As bad as it is, it is Yours. I firmly believe that He will never give up on me when I am not giving up on Him. Repentance is a lifestyle. It should be like breathing. You do it all the time. It is an attitude, as well as specific prayers. I am always a sinner. I always need His blood. It is at those times when I depart from that awareness that I sin, or at least subject myself to stronger temptation. Unfortunately, I still do this. A growing awareness I have is how sinful my fearfulness is. I really don't trust God like I say I do, or that I should, at least, not all the time. But I know I am covered, as He continues to draw me closer.

So, in answer to the OP, Grace is by far and away greater than all my sin and shame. It breaks my heart away from sin and heals me, over and over and over and over.......I have great confidence in it. If I did not, I would truly be lost.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:13 pm

Thanks readyornot.

As I was reading your post and at the point of your mentioning of Peter, I suddenly recalled this passage in Matthew 18:21-22

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus said to him, I say not to you, Until seven times, but Until seventy times seven.


If once becoming saved by Grace, and made to become Children of God, shall God forgive less his very own children who sin?

Is God putting a demand on Peter that God himself will not meet? Is God hypocritical? Is he like the Pharisees who bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne (Matthew 23:4) but He himself will not do?

God is none of that we would all agree. So let's process our thoughts a bit more... what are we actually saying when we believe Sin can revoke God's Grace from us?

It is precisely that God will be eternally forgiving towards his children that his children are to do the same...

Put it in another way... Can any sin stop God's Grace to forgive his children? Remember the weaker cannot stop the greater; only the greater can stop the weaker.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:32 pm

This is an excellent point, KA.

It is important also to remember the words of Christ on this matter:
Luke 17:3,4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


I am sure Jesus did not mean to have an attitude of unforgiveness unless our brother repents.
But Jesus did make the point of saying TWICE that if your brother REPENTS, forgive him.
Why was Jesus so emphatic about that part of the process?

Because we can extend forgiveness forever, but the forgiveness process is not completed, until the other party repents.
It's all about repairing relationships. It takes two to complete the circle of forgiveness. Each time the relationship is harmed by offense, repentance is needed, before forgiveness can be received. I repeat, we are to offer forgiveness long before the repentance comes, as God does. But it takes repentance, to access the forgiveness.

God extends forgiveness to us, but we have to repent, even repeatedly, every time we sin, to complete that cycle of forgiveness, to repair the relationship.
The model Jesus gave to us of forgiveness is the perfect model.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:08 am

daffodyllady wrote:God extends forgiveness to us, but we have to repent, even repeatedly, every time we sin, to complete that cycle of forgiveness, to repair the relationship.


But even for relationship, didn't Paul said Nothing can separate us from the love of God? (Romans 8)

And if God commended his love toward us, in that while we were YET SINNERS, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8)... how is it that that after we receive his Grace, he would NOT commend his love toward us, if we sin?

Once again, Paul reinforces this thought, comparing BEFORE and AFTER

When we were ENEMIES, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son... MUCH MORE, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:10)

Wile we were enemies we were reconciled... how is it then when we having become RECONCILED, we still can become enemies when the bible says MUCH MORE... how does that MUCH MORE make sense?

We are not just saved, we are also made alive! That life is in Christ mind you.... does Jesus die?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:57 am

Keeping Alert wrote:It is precisely that God will be eternally forgiving towards his children that his children are to do the same...

Put it in another way... Can any sin stop God's Grace to forgive his children? Remember the weaker cannot stop the greater; only the greater can stop the weaker.


This is so important to grasp, KA. I think that if we tend to demand and/or expect forgiveness from others when we are offended by them, we think God demands the same from us. This is true especially if we have grown up with extremely authoritative parents who demanded perfection from us. We think our failures (due to our human-ness and weaknesses) cause Him to be angry with us. That's why Paul admonishes fathers not to exasperate their children so they don't lose heart.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


When we grasp this truth, we can live our lives without guilt, shame, and fear of losing His love for us.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby daffodyllady on Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:06 am

Keeping Alert wrote:But even for relationship, didn't Paul said Nothing can separate us from the love of God? (Romans 8)


I have already given scriptures that dealt with that idea.
I feel I am going in circles and wasting my time in here again.
Daffodyllady
Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will recieve you... Abstain from all appearance of evil...Without holiness shall no man see the Lord.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:05 am

daffodyllady wrote:
Keeping Alert wrote:But even for relationship, didn't Paul said Nothing can separate us from the love of God? (Romans 8)


I have already given scriptures that dealt with that idea.
I feel I am going in circles and wasting my time in here again.


Daffodylady, while you may have mentioned briefly about Romans 8, the main crux of the last post is Romans 5:8,10.

While I see you constantly go back to the difficult passage of Hebrews, I have yet to be shown by you how God can give us eternal life which is really not eternal because it can actually be forfeited by certain act of sin or by self walking away. Is it eternal or not eternal? Has it been given or has it been not? What did Jesus want to convey when he reinforced the meaning of eternal life by saying he will never die... What did he want to convey that NO ONE can pluck them out of God's hands? What does Jesus want to convey when he said His Father is greater than ALL?

Remember the gifts and calling of God are without repentance... Romans 11:29... So if God gives us eternal life, do we have it or not? If we can die through our sinning later, have we received eternal life?

In Romans 5:8,10 it is continuation of the same thought... But deeper.... And while I actually had the same thought that we are also going around in circles, I really did not think you were wasting my time...

Hey, is that a sin on your part that you might need to repent of? Is impatience something you could work on? Oops! Have I aroused a ignited a short fuse? Oops, actually I notice you get quite upset easily.... Not only on this thread with Abiding but also many other times... Have you repented of each one of them? Or are you self-righteous and feel you have done no wrong? Is feeling indignant a sin? Do you need to repent of that? It seems quite of bit of things to repent of... Make sure you don't miss any...

Daffodylady, I really don't mean to do this to you but you really need to see the futility of trying to get right with God based on your own efforts and amount of repentance. Jesus after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, SAT DOWN (Hebrews 10:12)

We are in Christ... Christ is rested.... So should we...

Love-in-Christ,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:36 pm

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

1 Corr 13:13
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Love is the greatest.
Faith, Hope, and Love are lasting; everything else passes away.

It is because God so Loved the world that He gave us Hope through Faith in his only begotten Son,
whom, through God's mercy was sacrificed to Death for our sins, so that the sting of Death, Sin, would be rendered powerless by establishing the rule of Grace which trumps the Law through which Sin gains power over men.

The law of Grace governs a new state of which we are citizens.

Recently I moved from Maryland to Georgia.
I have changed my state of existence as Georgia has different laws governing it than Maryland.

As a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven I am governed by the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven and that law is Grace through Faith in Christ. If I don't want to be under the law of grace anymore, I would have to leave the Kingdom of Heaven thereby subjecting myself to other laws than the law of Grace.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:36 pm

Part of salvation is freedom from slavery to sin.
I am not there yet so I am still working out my salvation.

Sin is condemned in this body. So when I die sin will stay with my flesh and decay while I will be free from sin that lives in my members. Satan was given permission to sift Peter and he denied Christ three times then wept. I have overcome some sins. I have been shown more to overcome, even after 30 years. If I were permitted to choose death and be free of this body I would. But that is not what is asked of me. I am asked to struggle against sin and grow stronger in character strength. To transform who I am through these trials and to eventually overcome what is put in front of me. Do I ever expect to be free of sin in this lifetime? No. But it would be nice.

In the end I must depend upon God's grace. I am not worthy and have not accomplished being free from sin. I have nothing but God's grace to fall back on. Even if I were successful and overcame all sins, Is it not by God's grace I accomplish this? If God's grace is not enough then nothing will ever be enough.


Matt 21:31
Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.


John 6: 27-30
27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”


The will of God is to believe in the one whom He sent. The prostitutes and tax collectors who believed, obeyed the will of God. Therefore, they were entering the Kingdom of Heaven 2000 years ago. Entering the Kingdom of Heaven did not change the fact they were prostitutes and tax collectors. The same is true for each of us.


Keith
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:39 pm

This topic has been on my mind since my last post. It bothers me that we have such a narrow view of grace that we view grace as legalistic transaction pairs of sin and forgiveness.

Grace is much more than transactions. We live by God's grace. He created our race and our self and the food we eat and the clothes we wear and the light of day and the dark of night, the food chain, the laws of physics, biology, energy, etc. All are expressions of God's grace. Everything exists by God's grace let alone growing and changing. The rains fall upon the field of the just and the unjust; graciously.


THE LORD'S PRAYER Matthew 6:9-13
Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
4

We ask God to not lead us into temptation because we are likely to sin when led into the things that tempt our desires.
Part of God's grace is to not lead us into those things that will cause us to sin. Sometimes He does, else we would not have to ask him not to do so. My experience is: when He does, He is teaching me about myself and removing my self delusions, both good and bad. It is by His grace that I am not led into temptation and also by his grace that he leads me into temptation (or lets me go my way until I learn better). Grace is a lot more than just forgiveness; it is an act of love for our benefit even should we suffer for a short time. We live by His grace, the food we eat every day though we want to think we have earned it, the debts that are forgiven, and the sins He keeps our feet from.

God is a gracious King.
We literally exist and live as the old expression says "by your grace".
I think we forget the meaning of this in modern times where elected officials are not kings holding absolute powers of life and death over each of us.

Keith
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby GodsStudent on Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:14 am

We ask God to not lead us into temptation because we are likely to sin when led into the things that tempt our desires.
Part of God's grace is to not lead us into those things that will cause us to sin. Sometimes He does, else we would not have to ask him not to do so. My experience is: when He does, He is teaching me about myself and removing my self delusions, both good and bad. It is by His grace that I am not led into temptation and also by his grace that he leads me into temptation (or lets me go my way until I learn better). Grace is a lot more than just forgiveness; it is an act of love for our benefit even should we suffer for a short time. We live by His grace, the food we eat every day though we want to think we have earned it, the debts that are forgiven, and the sins He keeps our feet from.


Well done.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Mark F on Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:39 am

GodsStudent wrote:
We ask God to not lead us into temptation because we are likely to sin when led into the things that tempt our desires.
Part of God's grace is to not lead us into those things that will cause us to sin. Sometimes He does, else we would not have to ask him not to do so. My experience is: when He does, He is teaching me about myself and removing my self delusions, both good and bad. It is by His grace that I am not led into temptation and also by his grace that he leads me into temptation (or lets me go my way until I learn better). Grace is a lot more than just forgiveness; it is an act of love for our benefit even should we suffer for a short time. We live by His grace, the food we eat every day though we want to think we have earned it, the debts that are forgiven, and the sins He keeps our feet from.


Well done.


This is saying more or less that God leads us into temptation by allowing us to enter certain circumstances, how then does it sit with what James wrote?

James 1:12-15: 12 "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."

I would contend that God allows those situations in our lives to teach us to depend upon Him for strength and deliverance, it is not God that leads us to those situations but as James said it is us who are led by our own desires.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:29 pm

Mark,

Perhaps what tempts me does not tempt you. Suppose God leads us both down the same path; I am tempted by something along that path yet you are not. I am tempted; you are not. My temptation comes from my desires and not the path or God's leading.

If I overcome the temptation, I get credit for doing so. Whereas you were not tempted along that path and have not overcome anything and therefore do not get credit for overcoming my temptations. It is for you to overcome your temptations and for me to overcome mine. Perhaps I saw from the path something that tempted me and I left the path and pursued that temptation. Is God at fault? Certainly not. You did not leave the path I did. How can it be God's fault when clearly we responded differently to the same situation and circumstances?

I am tempted by my desires. You are tempted by your desires.
God does not tempt us but he does lead us to places where we are tempted by our own desires else we would not have to ask him to not lead us into temptation. Was not the forbidden fruit in the garden available to be eaten instead of locked away out of sight and temptation?

Hebrews 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Part of Grace is that we are to learn through practice (Hebrews 5:14) to distinguish good from evil; the implication is: the immature in Christ who are not fully trained we will sin because we make the wrong choices not being able to distinguish good from evil let alone choose good over evil once we are able to make the distinction.

Christ said ... Matthew 18:7
Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!


Temptation is necessary.
For without temptation we could not be trained to distinguish good from evil. Notice the woe is for the one who brings temptation. Christ did not say woe to the one who succumbs to temptation; No! he said woe to the one who brings the temptation.

So again, Grace is not about transactions. It is a state.
A state of affairs, a state of being, a state of existence, a state describing the Kingdom of God.

Keith
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby redeemed1953 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:57 pm

:armor:

I hesitate to wander into this quagmire....

Which of you are able to keep yourselves saved?
Which of you saved yourself?
Which of you shed the blood which is the propitiation (it satisfied God) for sin?
Which of you is able to keep yourself from failing?
Which of you gives eternal life?
Which of you said "I will NEVER leave or forsake you"?
Which of you sealed yourself by the Holy Spirit?

If you can say "I am" to any of those...email me and I will pray God opens your eyes to His saving, keeping power. He knew you before He ever flung the first star in the sky. I suspect His grace and mercy are still greater than we can imagine. He is aware that we are grass and takes it into consideration. Do you think He falls off the throne because you blow it? A lifestyle is sin is not the same thing as an act of sin. You can't be saved and keep on living like hell.

:a3:

:a3:

:a3:
I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Saviour...John Newton
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:08 pm

A lifestyle is sin is not the same thing as an act of sin. You can't be saved and keep on living like hell.


How many sins after being saved constitutes a "lifestyle?" Will you clarify for my understanding what you mean by "living like hell?" I don't think you're implying that at some time following salvation, we become sinless are you?

I think we'll all agree that even saved persons might struggle with alcohol, sexual sins, cursing, pride, critical attitudes, depression, drugs etc. all their lives.

I don't see discussion as a quagmire, but if you do, feel free to not answer my questions.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby redeemed1953 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:52 pm

:armor:

Dear Abiding:

It isn't so much how many times as does the sin own you ....No vessel is perfect. Even if you get all your ducks in a row, you are aging, which is a by-product of sin.

In 1 John 1:5-10 it reads:
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. [1 John 1:5-10 NASB]

In verse 6 : I highlighted walk...it is to continue in sin....to say you are in fellowship and continue in sin...where is the line....I hesitate to pick a sin, but I will pick one that is familiar...



My dad and mother were alcoholics. They divorced when I was 6.
My dad became a believer and quit drinking overnight. He followed after the Lord Jesus with all his heart till the day he died.

My mother died with alcoholic brain syndrome...she drank so much that it burned up her brain.

There is a bright side to this story.....my dad, who knew no reserves when it came to witnessing for Jesus, found out that my mom was going downhill and he called her, preached the gospel to her and led her to the saving knowledge of Jesus.

I had a hard time understanding how she could "suddenly" change and be of use in the Kingdom...She had been owned by sin--she had been immoral, a drunk, a drug abuser. However, within a week of my dad praying for her, she suddenly went downhill and never really knew who she was until she died six months later. I came across the verses in 1 Cor 5:5

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus....

I am not a sentimental person, but if she is not in heaven, it will be my misunderstanding the workings of God.

I defer to Jamieson, Faucett and Brown

Besides excommunication (of which the Corinthians themselves had the power), Paul delegates here to the Corinthian Church his own special power as an apostle, of inflicting corporeal disease or death in punishment for sin ("to deliver to Satan such an one," that is, so heinous a sinner). For instances of this power, see Act 5:1-11 13:11 1Ti 1:20. As Satan receives power at times to try the godly, as Job ( Job 2:4-7 ) and Paul ( 2Cr 12:7; compare also as to Peter, Luk 22:31 ), much more the ungodly. Satan, the "accuser of the brethren" ( Rev 12:10 ) and the "adversary" ( 1Pe 5:8 ), demands the sinner for punishment on account of sin ( Zec 3:1 ). When God lets Satan have his way, He is said to "deliver the sinner unto Satan" (compare Psa 109:6 ). Here it is not finally; but for the affliction of the body with disease, and even death ( 1Cr 11:30, 32 ), so as to destroy fleshly lust. He does not say, "for the destruction of the body," for it shall share in redemption ( Rom 8:23 ); but of the corrupt "flesh" which "cannot inherit the kingdom of God," and the lusts of which had prompted this offender to incest ( Rom 7:5 8:9, 10 ). The "destruction of the flesh" answers to "mortify the deeds of the body" ( Rom 8:13 ), only that the latter is done by one's self, the former is effected by chastisement from God (compare 1Pe 4:6 ):
the spirit. . . saved--the spiritual part of man, in the believer the organ of the Holy Spirit. Temporary affliction often leads to permanent salvation ( Psa 83:16 ).

As for me, Yes, oh Yes I'm a child of the King....His royal blood now flows in my veins...I who was wretched and vile now can sing, O Yes, Praise God, I'm a child of the King.

Do I sin...yes, but I don't go looking to see how close I can get to the edge of the cliff before I fall. I CLING to the Lord Jesus who died for my sin and the sins of many. He is the Captain of the ship...if I am asleep or at work...He still guides the ship. He is my Shepherd who guards me with His rod and staff.

I know what "living like I was camping at the gates of hell" is...I used to be a lost person. But in wonderful compassion, in His time, He brought me in to His fold....I am forever grateful that He redeemed me.

I don't worry about my security...I can't keep me...He does and I trust Him.

:a3:
I am a great sinner and Christ is a great Saviour...John Newton
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:46 pm

Hello Redeemed1953,

In verse 6 : I highlighted walk...it is to continue in sin....to say you are in fellowship and continue in sin...where is the line....I hesitate to pick a sin, but I will pick one that is familiar...


That's just my point...we can't possibly know where the line is in the lives of individuals. Recovery groups; Accountability groups; Alcoholics Anonymous groups, Support groups etc. are filled with people who struggle with sin. Some have victory. Some have a relapse. Some fail entirely. All, though struggling, may continue in that particular sin forever.

You picked a sin that was familiar. Allow me to share an instance that will serve as an example that was a lifetime lesson for me.

We had a fellowship in our home and one neighbor, Al, and his wife were regular attenders. On a scale of 1-10, Al had a temper of 10. He was a hot-head. His anger flared easily and you could see his face change from a normal flesh-color to a shade of an apple in about 10 seconds flat. He asked for prayer often and the whole group was happy to do so. We prayed over Al every time he asked over a period of nearly 2-3 yrs. His wife testified that she saw a great change in Al and he displayed a much more easy-going behavior since that first night at the fellowship.

Eventually a new member joined our fellowship and was unaware of the progress made by Al, and told me (after a meeting) that it was obvious "that man" needed some help with his anger problem. She didn't know that Al had gone from a 10 down to a 4 over a period of 2 yrs. and was growing beautifully in the fruit of the spirit as he matured in Christ.

We just can't always judge what's going on in someone's life.

Consider how long Paul "walked" in his sin before Jesus intervened. Or how many wives and concubines David and Solomon had knowing that marriage was designed to be a one woman/one man relationship. Were they "walking" in sin all those years? How many with sexual or other addictions might be saved after years of purposely engaging in them?

You are free to arrive at your own conclusion, but I fail to see the wisdom of blanket judgments about sinners and their walks through life. We are called to be ambassadors and evangelists not judges imo.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby redeemed1953 on Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:18 pm

:armor:

Abiding...
I do not sit in judgment on anyone...the Word judges them.

If you continue to wallow in sin, something is wrong somewhere and it is not Jesus who is wrong. You are to abide in Christ. Period.

Perhaps they are bound by a spirit.

Perhaps they love their sin more than they love God.

There are all kinds of reasons for continuing to swim in the sewer of sin.

Over the years I have seen all kinds of people do all kinds of things and say they are in fellowship with the Father. Their conduct explains their "fellowship" and who they are in "fellowship" with.

Frankly, I think you and I see things in a different light. I bid you the peace of the Risen King....who is not a baby in a manger anymore.

:a3:

:a3:
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:11 am

Romans 7:21-25
21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-11
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set youb free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,c he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesusd from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Vers 11 from the King James says:
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.



Part of our salvation is freedom from the Sin which lives in our flesh from controlling our actions.
God is not so cruel as to save our souls and leave them confined in bodies of death. Instead, we are rescued from our bodies of death (our bodies are quickened) and so able to do the good works expected of us.

Daffodyllady is correct, we should be able to cease sinning. This is a promise of our salvation.
Nevertheless, Sin is still waging a war trying to regain control of our bodies. We are at war in our own flesh with the sin that wants to rule it. But as members of the Kingdom of Heaven we are God's real estate and it is God who rules within us not Sin. Should we cease to sin, Sin will still be in our flesh trying to win a battle and cause us to sin again in an attempt to enslave us again. Thus we will not ever be without Sin, it lives within our members. But the promise is not that we can be without sin, but that we can cease from being enslaved by the Sin within our flesh and having it rule over us such that we accomplish Sin's agenda. The promise is that we are freed from enslavement so that we can accomplish God's agenda.

When we work out our salvation, we are learning to distinguish good over evil and choose good over evil. But it is a learning process in which we may sin and be forgiven. Scripture states grace is not a license to sin. Scripture states this because like diplomatic immunity, Sin temps us to use grace wrongly, as a license instead of what it is: God's graciousness, love for us, and patience with us.



Keith
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Mark F on Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:19 am

Keeping Alert wrote:A thought came to my mind... I know not from God or my own...

Which is greater? Sin or Grace?

One act of Adam condemned him and the whole world into sin.

So ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God...

One act of sin committed by us, confirms our sinner status... even though we may do "good" things in our lives

One act of Jesus on the cross, released Grace and Salvation to the whole world

I am just thinking, if Grace is greater than Sin, then one act by us accepting Grace at any point in our lives should be more powerful and eefficacious to blot out all sins... even though we may continue to do "bad" things in our lives

Only if Grace is weaker than Sin, can there be a situation where Sin can undo what Grace had previously done

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:



Hi Keeping Alert, I hope all is well with you.

I was reading this post and I am thinking that you think on these things trying to wrap your mind around their deepest and fullest meanings which I applaud and agree it is how we learn more about Jesus and His work.

This first part here:
Which is greater? Sin or Grace?

One act of Adam condemned him and the whole world into sin.

So ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God...

One act of sin committed by us, confirms our sinner status... even though we may do "good" things in our lives


I would suggest that we are all sinners in God's eyes even before one act of sin is committed by us individually. I believe that (not from mine) but from God's perspective the moment Adam chose sin, all offspring of Adam and Eve were declared and were sinners. It is not how we would look at things, I hope I don't put people in categories or make judgments based of preconceived biases, but I must admit that sometimes I do. But I should first accept (or trust) people without biased judgments and only come to conclusions if they somehow deceive of wrong me, but I believe that from God's point of view He considered us all sinners at that moment because we all were in Adam at that moment. Had Adam and Eve bore children prior to His sin, I believe they would not of been considered in sin as we, follow my thoughts on that?

I was reading in Hebrews when I read about Melkizedek and how God considered Levi in tithing that I came to understand how God looks at sin in all mankind.

Hebrews 7:9-10 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

and Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’

Deuteronomy 23:2-8 “One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

3 “An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord forever, 4 because they did not meet you with bread and water on the road when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia,[a] to curse you. 5 Nevertheless the Lord your God would not listen to Balaam, but the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God loves you. 6 You shall not seek their peace nor their prosperity all your days forever.

7 “You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. You shall not abhor an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land. 8 The children of the third generation born to them may enter the assembly of the Lord.


How is it that God looks at things from 10 generations from the source? I hope I have given you food for thought and not confused you!

I am just thinking, if Grace is greater than Sin, then one act by us accepting Grace at any point in our lives should be more powerful and eefficacious to blot out all sins... even though we may continue to do "bad" things in our lives

Only if Grace is weaker than Sin, can there be a situation where Sin can undo what Grace had previously done


We accept grace? I am not sure I even agree with the modern statement that we accept Jesus as Savoir, He IS Lord and Savior whether or not I accept Him. I believe the word grace has come to mean too many things (I think). I want to think of grace as a verb. We receive justification from God when we agree with Him that we are sinners and that Jesus satisfied God's wrath against me as a sinner. By grace He imputes Jesus righteousness to me. Grace isn't what saves, it is faith that Jesus satisfied God's wrath against all sinners (of whom I am one) and my acknowledgement and request of forgiveness. We are declared then to be right with God and it is by His grace this can occur.
So anyway I think you should rethink that statement LOL!

Have a great day KA
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
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Re: Which is greater?

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:07 pm

Mark F, thanks for your input :)

I totally agree that we are born sinners and are considered sinners even before the first act of sin that we do. The reason why I wrote it in such a way was because it is a deep theological truth and perhaps hard to understand. There was another thread that I adamantly said that we are no longer sinners once we are saved. We have become saints that can sin. Sinner and Saint are identity issues.

So yes, and that all the more makes it all compelling that Grace must be greater. If sin by Adam make all posterity to be sinners, then if Grace is greater then all those in Christ must be forever saints! If a sinner doing good, cannot undo his "sinner" status, how shall we think that a saint doing sin, can undo his "saint" status? Nay, if Grace is greater and sufficient, then it will be able to save us unto the uttermost.

Regarding your second point, that you want to think of Grace as a verb. Yes it is a verb. But it is also a noun. And in my understanding, it is a Proper Noun i.e. a Person... the very person of Jesus Christ... He is Grace.

John 1:14 says And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... full of Grace and Truth

John 1:17 explains further... For the law was given by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.

From my understanding of the Greek, the word "came" in verse 17, is in the singular... which means that verse 17 is not just talking about Jesus Christ coming to give Grace and Truth (which should be plural) but that Grace and Truth is in the very person of Jesus Christ.

So when I read the famous verse of Ephesian 2:8.9, it seems to me so much richer to read it as Christ...

For by Grace are you saved through faith...

It could very well read, For by Christ are you saved through faith...

and it continues to say "it is the gift of God"... and if it is "THE GIFT", we could very well receive it I think... :grin:

Thanks for your well wishes. You have a good day yourself :grin:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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