Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:08 pm

Luke 5:18 And some men were carrying on a bed a man who was paralyzed; and they were trying to bring him in and to set him down in front of Him.
Luke 5:19 But not finding any way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down through the tiles with his stretcher, into the middle of the crowd, in front of Jesus.
Luke 5:20 Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

It appears the faith of those men who went out of their way to bring the paralytic to Jesus, brought about the forgiveness of his sins. Afterward, Jesus healed his body.

So it seems its possible for our faith, when we bring a loved one before Jesus in prayer, can bring about the forgiveness of that person's sins? There's no mention of any action on the part of the paralytic at all in any of the other passages: Matt. 9:1-8 and Mark 2:1-12. All three passages refer to "their faith."

Thoughts?

(I'll be out till later this evening, but I'd be interested in hearing what others think about this passage.)
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29355
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby Ready1 on Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:43 pm

While I understand what you are saying, and while I believe that each of his friends had faith, I suspect the the paralytic also had faith which motivated him to request his friends to help him. Many times Jesus states that "Thy faith hath made thee whole" and I would be very surprised if this time it was simply "Thy friends faith hath made thee whole."

The statement "Seeing their faith..." does not exclude the paralytic.

Mat_9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Mar 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.


I am not trying to belittle the power of intercessory prayer.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2828
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:27 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Luke 5:18 And some men were carrying on a bed a man who was paralyzed; and they were trying to bring him in and to set him down in front of Him.
Luke 5:19 But not finding any way to bring him in because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and let him down through the tiles with his stretcher, into the middle of the crowd, in front of Jesus.
Luke 5:20 Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

It appears the faith of those men who went out of their way to bring the paralytic to Jesus, brought about the forgiveness of his sins. Afterward, Jesus healed his body.


Abiding,

What brought about the forgiveness of sins for the paralyzed man was Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Christ forgave the man’s sins knowing He was going to pay the penalty for those sins on the cross.

So it seems its possible for our faith, when we bring a loved one before Jesus in prayer, can bring about the forgiveness of that person's sins? There's no mention of any action on the part of the paralytic at all in any of the other passages: Matt. 9:1-8 and Mark 2:1-12. All three passages refer to "their faith."


Our intercession does not bring forgiveness of sins. If we are interceding for a nonbeliever, their sins have already been forgiven since Christ paid for all sins committed by men (descendants of Adam). And under the new covenant, the children of God do not have any sins charged to their account for they are not under law.

Blessings,
sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:39 pm

Sonbeam wrote:What brought about the forgiveness of sins for the paralyzed man was Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Christ forgave the man’s sins knowing He was going to pay the penalty for those sins on the cross.


Sonbeam,

The verse says "seeing their faith" Jesus forgave the sins of the paralytic.

Our intercession does not bring forgiveness of sins. If we are interceding for a nonbeliever, their sins have already been forgiven since Christ paid for all sins committed by men (descendants of Adam). And under the new covenant, the children of God do not have any sins charged to their account for they are not under law.


There is no mention of any prayer or intercession on the part of those who were assisting the paralytic. It's not a matter of when Jesus died on the cross that I'm questioning, but whether or not someone's faith can bring about salvation or forgiveness of sins for another person. In other words, we are vessels through which grace flows...but to what extent? For example, if we pray for healing of an unbeliever, is that person healed as a result of our faith? Likewise, can our faith (like that of those men in Luke, Matt. and Mark) bring forgiveness of another's sin?

Hope that clarifies my question. I tend to believe each person must seek forgiveness on their own, but finding this narrative in three gospels made me wonder.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29355
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:08 am

Hi Abiding,

I think that what we are seeing in this story is an example of Jesus' unilateral right to forgive sins. It may be that the man on the mat wasn't seeking forgiveness, but Jesus gave it anyway.

Now, after the cross, God has forgiven all sins (that one exception aside), and we receive forgiveness freely for the asking.

However we may look at this, I'd point out the difference between descriptive and prescriptive passages. The descriptive is how something happened at a certain time. The prescriptive tells us how it is to be done.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 14158
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:07 am

I don't mean to derail the thread but I always wondered about this passage :

1 Corinthians 7:12-16
12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.
13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.
16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?


Does this correlate to the passage in Luke? How can a believing spouse sanctify the unbeliever? Is it because the faithful one by their testimony leads the other to faith and forgiveness? Is that what was happening in Luke?

And why are the children unclean if the believer leaves the unbeliever?

So many questions....

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 4136
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:17 pm

However we may look at this, I'd point out the difference between descriptive and prescriptive passages. The descriptive is how something happened at a certain time. The prescriptive tells us how it is to be done.


Hi Mark,

Oh that it was that simple! :)

We can try to determine what is descriptive and what is prescriptive, but we also need to consider the general vs. the specific, the cultural vs. perpetual, principal vs. command, literal vs. figurative, hyperbole, sarcasm, history, etc. What may have been prescriptive 2,000 yrs. ago, to a particular person for a particular reason, may not apply today.

Here's an example involving two blind men:

Mat 9:27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, "Have mercy on us, Son of David!"
Mat 9:28 When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus *said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They *said to Him, "Yes, Lord."
Mat 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Mat 9:30 And their eyes were opened. And Jesus sternly warned them: "See that no one knows about this!"


Part of this passage tells us that Jesus heals. Part tells us they believed He could heal. Part tells us they were healed because they believed. And Jesus warned them not to tell anyone.

We quote this type of scripture as proof that Jesus can and wants to heal. We pray for healing for others' sickness and disease because Jesus healed and so did the apostles. Healing is listed among the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But do we warn those who are healed not to tell anyone?

We've made a "prescriptive" method for healing:

Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
Jas 5:15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.


Must we call for the elders of the church when we are sick? Is that a must for receiving healing? And here again, the forgiveness of sins is related to the prayer for healing by the elders!

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed.

Must we confess our sins to another person in order to be healed? Many churches consider the first part of that verse to be prescriptive and it has become the focal point of what's called "accountability" groups. But in context, the prayer's purpose is physical healing with the resulting forgiveness of sins which may be related to the physical illness.

Not always so cut and dried or easy to discern imo.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29355
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby daffodyllady on Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:54 pm

We tend to define "Sanctify" as "To make clean."
But the more correct definition is "To separate for God, or to mark as holy."

Think about this verse:
1Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts...


We do not make God clean. But we regard Him as set apart and hallowed, in our hearts.

Therefore, I Corinthians 7 indicates that in God's eyes, a non-Christian spouse is set apart for special attention, just because a Christian is connected with them. And the same with their children. God singles them out for special attention.
We make a difference in the spiritual atmosphere of our homes. We can make a very real difference in spiritual warfare over our loved ones. If we are full of the Holy Spirit, we influence spiritual activity wherever we go.

But if we divorce from them, God will not see them the same way.
Daffodyllady
Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will recieve you... Abstain from all appearance of evil...Without holiness shall no man see the Lord.
daffodyllady
 
Posts: 4237
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:19 am

Re: Their faith brought another's forgiveness

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:49 pm

Abiding: There is no mention of any prayer or intercession on the part of those who were assisting the paralytic. It's not a matter of when Jesus died on the cross that I'm questioning, but whether or not someone's faith can bring about salvation or forgiveness of sins for another person. In other words, we are vessels through which grace flows...but to what extent? For example, if we pray for healing of an unbeliever, is that person healed as a result of our faith? Likewise, can our faith (like that of those men in Luke, Matt. and Mark) bring forgiveness of another's sin?



I’ll take this question first Abiding:


For example, if we pray for healing of an unbeliever, is that person healed as a result of our faith?


While God might be moved by men’s faith and prayers (either their own or someone else’s on their behalf), to bring about healings, we do know, both from the scriptures and personal experience, that He doesn’t always respond to those appeals.

If we think that there’s inherent power in certain faith or prayer that brings about healing, then we go down the slippery slope of trying to define how much faith or how much prayer is enough to get God to release His healing power.


2 Cor 1

7 b. Therefore, to keep[a] me from being too elated, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me, to keep me from being too elated. 8 [b]Three times I appealed to the Lord about this, that it would leave me, 9 but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power[c] is made perfect in weakness.”



God does use human vessels through which His power for healing flows as He did the apostles, but the ability/power to heal is His alone necessitating nothing else in order to release that power.

Acts Chap 3 records that a man that was lame from birth was healed when Peter commanded him in the name of Jesus Christ to stand up and walk. And rightly so, Peter gave all the glory for the healing to God.

Acts 3

11 While he clung to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the portico called Solomon’s Portico, utterly astonished. 12 When Peter saw it, he addressed the people, “You Israelites,[b] why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we had made him walk? 13 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors has glorified his servant[c] Jesus, whom you handed over and rejected in the presence of Pilate, though he had decided to release him.
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas


Return to General Bible Study & Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest