Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby keithareilly on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:33 am

Jericho,

Just Semantics.
Ananias and Sapphira still died regardless of what you call it.
The sinner is still turned over to Satan.

God has not changed from one covenant to the next. He is still who he is. Else we could discard the Old Testament.
Christ died once for all from the foundation of the world. There is no other name through which we are saved.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby keithareilly on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:33 am

WilliamL wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Interesting that no one answered the questions I posed earlier.

For me, that is because you did such a good job of answering them yourself.


:lol:
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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby Ready1 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:35 am

keithareilly wrote:What I am surprised about is that when God does punish us, when he teaches us what we have done to others,
placing us in their shoes, we do not see that he is avenging the wrong we have done while at the same time being merciful to us and at the same time loving us by teaching us what we need to understand.

I find it curious that Christians refuse to accept that his punishment, even when meant for our edification, is also vengeance for the wrong we have done others. For some reason, there seems to be an obstacle to accepting that truth.
It is acceptable to be chastised, it is acceptable for God to take vengeance on our behalf, yet, it does not seem to be acceptable for God to avenge others when we have wronged them.


What you have shared is only one part of a multi-part picture. While it is certainly true that the Lord may punish us for wrongs committed in the flesh, it is also true that we may suffer for things that are not our fault or when no wrong is involved. Jesus himself is our example, and his suffering was on our behalf rather than on his own. We may face similar challenges and because of this, men have cried out to the Lord to avenge their suffering throughout all time. Moreover, scripture says that the Lord declares that vengeance is His for wrongs done between individuals in the flesh, and that our responsibility is to
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby keithareilly on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:37 am

Ready1,

Well said.
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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby keithareilly on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:31 pm

Here is another question for the viewers.

Why do you think God told Ananias that He would show Saul what Saul must suffer for his names sake?

Edited 8/12/14 to add:
When Ananias responded to God, expressing concern regarding Saul's reputation as persecutor of the church, Why are these the words God chose to answer Ananias' concern? And how do these words address Ananias' concerns? Why does God deem it important for Ananias to know Saul is going to suffer?

Keith
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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby WilliamL on Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:20 am

Just a passing comment on vengeance.

God exacts vengeance in two ways:
1) By actively sending affliction. For example, causing the Deluge.
2) By withdrawing his Presence, thus removing his Light. Which removal allows the evil dominion of darkness to cause the affliction.
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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby keithareilly on Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:54 pm

David,

I think you are correct.
The difficulty is what people hear, not what is being said.
When people hear vengeance, they do not hear a good thing.
Yet, everything God does is good.
Since He reserves vengeance for himself how could vengeance not also be a good thing.

It strikes me odd that people forget God does not want any to perrish and is patient with us providing an opportunity to come to repentence. While vengenace is not pleasent, neither is any punishment / discipline. Can vengenace be for those who refuse to repent? Sure it can. But God would still rather their response to be repentence.

If all things work for the good of those who love the Lord, then vengenace must be one of those things that work to our good, even when we are the ones who have earned it. I am suprised people cannot get past the connotations and place vengenace in its proper context.

It is like the carrot and the stick; both are used to get the donkey where you want it to go, one is by reward, the other by punishment.


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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby keithareilly on Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:03 pm

WilliamL wrote:Just a passing comment on vengeance.

God exacts vengeance in two ways:
1) By actively sending affliction. For example, causing the Deluge.
2) By withdrawing his Presence, thus removing his Light. Which removal allows the evil dominion of darkness to cause the affliction.



And I would add sometimes it is temporary, sometimes it is permanent.

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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby keithareilly on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:39 pm

DaffodylLady and others,

Acts 9:15-16
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” .

After rereading some of your comments in previous posts. I see some people think Paul had an option as to his suffering implying this could not be vengeance as it was a choice. Notice that it was God's will that Paul must suffer. The words "will" and "must" indicates Paul had no choice in the matter; Paul was going to suffer for God's name sake. It was God's will and it must happen.

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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:41 am

keithareilly wrote: Notice that it was God's will that Paul must suffer. The words "will" and "must" indicates Paul had no choice in the matter; Paul was going to suffer for God's name sake. It was God's will and it must happen.


Must/Will (Prophetic)

... strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we (will) must enter the kingdom of God." Act 14:22

"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. Matt 24:6

Show (Warn)

So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who (showed) warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Luke 3:7

"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! Luke 12:5

...for I will show/warn him how much he must suffer for My name's sake." Act 9:16

***************************************
I found the word "must" in the NT 97 times and most often used in a prophetic manner showing what "will" happen.

God was assuring Ananias that Paul was not going to harm him. And, in fact, Paul was going to suffer for His testimony and work in promoting the very name he previously persecuted for. God was going to warn Paul of the things he would suffer in the future. They are prophetic words.

Those prophetic words that warned Paul that he would suffer were indeed fulfilled.

Are they servants of Christ?--I speak as if insane--I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 2Cor. 11:23-27

**************************

ETA: Paul states that the Lord delivered him from various persecution, sufferings, and trials.

.... persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 2Tim. 3:11

But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that through me the proclamation might be fully accomplished, and that all the Gentiles might hear; and I was rescued out of the lion's mouth. 2Tim 4:17
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Re: Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Postby keithareilly on Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:21 am

Abiding

Agreed.

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