Jesus Said You MUST Observe the 613 Torah Laws!

by **smackbucket** on Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:58 am

Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

The Judaizers claim that we, the Church, are to observe all 613 Torah laws, and the above passage is one of their favorites used to convince others to continue to observe the dietary laws, to get circumcised, etc.

Anyone care to expound on Matthew 5 for me. The main issue I'm having is:

1) "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments."

What is the "least of these?" It can't be every 613 Torah law due to the teaching of Paul and others that clearly show that they (food, drink, festival, new moon, Sabbath day, etc) were a "shadow of the things to come." (Col. 2:17)

2) What is your view on how Christ fulfilled the law?

3) What is your view on "not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished..."

Thanks!

by **AndCanItBe** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:38 am

1. I'm not sure of this one either, but Jesus goes on in Matthew 5 with the sermon on the Mount. Are "the least of these" the commands that follow about murder, etc? Remember how He blows away any chance that the Pharisees are righteous by looking on the heart and not just outward obedience?

2. I look at it this way...when we are saved, Jesus' righteousness and obedience are credited to us, and in this way we become more righteous than the Pharisees through faith rather than works. It's not as if we didn't have to do the works though, it's that Someone did it in our place. God looks on us, and sees Jesus' obedience credited to our account. This fulfillment allows us to then be under a law of grace instead of works because of faith, and there are other passages in the New Testament that clearly express that we are now free under a law of grace when it comes to certain things that were under a law of works. Jesus didn't abolish anything, He fulfilled it in our place, and it frees us from certain parts of a law of works. Many of those parts, were at least partly about being ceremonially clean I think. We don't need that anymore because Jesus is a permanent sacrifice. Some laws are fulfilled in a different way, like circumcision. We are circumcised still, but it's of the heart with the Holy Spirit (Romans 2:29).

3. I take it as a warning that the Law is not to become irrelevant to us or to be ignored because we need to understand that God intends to use Jesus to fulfill the law, not remove it. If He simply nullified the Law and changed the rules, then God is inconsistent and may do so again at any time. We can then expect any part of the law that has not yet been fulfilled with Christ's first coming, will be fulfilled at the second.

by **smackbucket** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:55 am

Thanks, AndCanItBe. I"ll take all the help I can get! I'm dealing with an individual in my life right now that is an extremist on this topic. He's here to evangelize us. grin. I can argue all of the other passages that show him to be in error, but so far, he's not hearing. Imagine that! I'm thinking I would like to try to get at the root, first, if at all possible, which is this Matt 5 passage. His whole belief system kind of revolves around this passage, so it would be nice if I could have this passage mastered, as well.

by **AndCanItBe** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:19 am

that sounds challenging, smackbucket. God is able though. I'll be praying for you!

by **Sunny** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:52 am

Have your friend read the book of Galatians.

If that doesn't convince him, then nothing will. :)

by **smackbucket** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:25 am

Sunny wrote:Have your friend read the book of Galatians.

If that doesn't convince him, then nothing will. :)

Believe me, he has. I haven't gotten that far with him yet to see HOW he gets around it, but he does. He basically uses Matt 5 as his foundation, and then figures out how to get around sections like Galatians because Galatians COULDN'T POSSIBLY be saying what it's saying, otherwise Jesus was a liar. Thus the reason I need to master Matt 5. So help me out. :)

by **David L** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:54 pm

smackbucket wrote:Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

The Judaizers claim that we, the Church, are to observe all 613 Torah laws, and the above passage is one of their favorites used to convince others to continue to observe the dietary laws, to get circumcised, etc.

I guess James, Paul, and Barnabas will be called least among the saints in the kingdom of heaven along with the other apostles who attended the first ecclesiastic council in Acts 15.

1 Some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved!" 2 But after Paul and Barnabas had engaged them in serious argument and debate, they arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this controversy. 3 When they had been sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, explaining in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and they created great joy among all the brothers.

4 When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, the apostles, and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5 But some of the believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses!"

The Jerusalem Council

6 Then the apostles and the elders assembled to consider this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them: "Brothers, you are aware that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the gospel message and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith[/b]. 10 Why, then, are you now testing God by putting on the disciples' necks a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we have been able to bear[/b]? 11 On the contrary, we believe we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way they are."

12 Then the whole assembly fell silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul describing all the signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they stopped speaking, James responded: "Brothers, listen to me! 14 Simeon has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:

16 After these things I will return
and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down.
I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again,
17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—
even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
says the Lord who does these things,
18 which have been known from long ago.

19 Therefore, in my judgment, we should not cause difficulties for those who turn to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but instead we should write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For since ancient times, Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, and he is read aloud in the synagogues every Sabbath day."

The Letter to the Gentile Believers

22 Then the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, decided to select men from among them and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas: Judas, called Barsabbas, and Silas, both leading men among the brothers. 23 They wrote this letter to be delivered by them:

From the apostles and the elders, your brothers,

To the brothers from among the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Because we have heard that some to whom we gave no authorization went out from us and troubled you with their words and unsettled your hearts, 25 we have unanimously decided to select men and send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who will personally report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it was the Holy Spirit's decision—and ours—to put no greater burden on you than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these things, you will do well.

Farewell. [HCSB Acts 15]

Serious problems arise if there is even the slightest doubt that the apostles are contradicting the words of the Lord Jesus Christ who personally discipled most of these folks in the council. The only solution is to go back and address the spirit of the law which Jesus always made an appeal to when citing the law.

Anyone care to expound on Matthew 5 for me. The main issue I'm having is:

1) "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments."

What is the "least of these?" It can't be every 613 Torah law due to the teaching of Paul and others that clearly show that they (food, drink, festival, new moon, Sabbath day, etc) were a "shadow of the things to come." (Col. 2:17)

2) What is your view on how Christ fulfilled the law?

3) What is your view on "not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished..."

Thanks!

I am probably going to edit and answer this in a new post after I do some reading and read all the posts that precede this one here. If you look carefully at the text Dave you will find that Paul & Barnabas debated the issue heavily with these folks themselves and at the first church council there was a division among some of the believing Pharisees who were dogmatic about having the Gentiles circumcised and the whole nine yards. You are only picking up where they left off and sadly enough it is very likely that you will get no where with this guy. I think you will find your ammo in Galatians and Romans.

I always Galatians 1:6-9 on them when this topic comes up. Galatians gives some insight on how Peter would later prove to be a hypocrite about this topic until Paul rebuked him openly about it. Interestingly enough God used a Pharisee to refute the errors of the Pharisees in Acts 15. case closed.

lols

by **aaron** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:56 pm

I just go back to the root, back to the Gospel:

1 Cor. 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

If someone is arguing that we need to do a certain work or set of works to gain salvation, we know it is not of the Lord. If righteousness comes through the law or keeping the law, then Christ died in vain. Ephesians 2:8-9 explains concisely what salvation is and what works are. If your friend is boasting in their works giving them salvation, then they are not preaching or living the Gospel.

In my experience, I will say to someone who is strong willed or argumentative about their position something like this: "I will respectfully listen to your side of the argument for say, 5 minutes. In return, I only ask that you listen to my side of the argument for the same amount of time." When they are discussing their side (like Mormoms, JW's or people in a cult, etc) I take time to pray for them and that their ears would be open to the Gospel. I also pray for wisdom and for the Holy Spirit to speak through me to their heart. Then I share my side. After I share my side, they will most likely either leave or even more forcefully push their side of the argument. I will be respectful, but I will 'steer' the conversation in the way of my testimony and all the wonderful things Jesus has done for me and others I know and share the joy of the Lord with them. I always focus on Jesus and my relationship with Him, and the joy of that. They can't take that away, they can't argue about it. They can't deny it.

Don't ever try to argue someone into the faith, it just doesn't work so well. If they are truly a Christian, they will lift up the Lord, give all the glory to Him, and not boast in their works ... for we know our righteousness is like filthy rags to Him. I'll pray the Lord will bring conviction to their life, and that the Lord will reveal to you what purpose He has in bringing this person into your life. Perhaps it is for them to experience the joy of salvation.

by **smackbucket** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:01 pm

Thanks, David L! BUT I've already been through Acts 15 with him. He interprets the passage to show that one doesn't need to be circumcised to be SAVED, which is correct, and is even the way it's mentioned in chapter 15. But he explains that the four things mentioned in verse 19...

19 Therefore, in my judgment, we should not cause difficulties for those who turn to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but instead we should write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For since ancient times, Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, and he is read aloud in the synagogues every Sabbath day."

...are simply the beginning of the 613 Torah laws that these infants in the faith will grow to follow. Only these four Torah laws were given to them in their beginning stages of faith so as to not burden them. But as they mature, they will become more Torah observant. According to him, of course.

by **David L** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:04 pm

it sounds like he's dealing with someone who is heavily misinformed by some of the extreme fringes of the Messianic movement. I have seen this many times before in the last few years. At some point they pull the ole 'we gotta get back to the Hebrew/Jewish roots of the bible' which I agree with but in so far as the NT allows for that to be done. The NT does allow for the things being suggested and Acts 15 is an excellent narrative that can be used to illustrate it.

by **smackbucket** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:06 pm

aaron wrote:If someone is arguing that we need to do a certain work or set of works to gain salvation, we know it is not of the Lord.

He's not saying this. He believes in faith in Christ. BUT then he also believes that anyone who truly has the Spirit will mature and begin to "obey" the "law." He applies James' view, ie. faith without works is dead. The "works," according to him are the 613 laws.

by **AndCanItBe** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:16 pm

smackbucket wrote:
aaron wrote:If someone is arguing that we need to do a certain work or set of works to gain salvation, we know it is not of the Lord.

He's not saying this. He believes in faith in Christ. BUT then he also believes that anyone who truly has the Spirit will mature and begin to "obey" the "law." He applies James' view, ie. faith without works is dead. The "works," according to him are the 613 laws.

What about Hebrews 11, the "hall of faith"? If it was observance of the 613 Torah laws that made us great in the kingdom of heaven, then why so many mentioned and honored and put out as an example to us that clearly failed to obey them? Some didn't even know them.

by **David L** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:44 pm

smackbucket wrote:Thanks, David L! BUT I've already been through Acts 15 with him. He interprets the passage to show that one doesn't need to be circumcised to be SAVED, which is correct, and is even the way it's mentioned in chapter 15. But he explains that the four things mentioned in verse 19...

19 Therefore, in my judgment, we should not cause difficulties for those who turn to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but instead we should write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For since ancient times, Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, and he is read aloud in the synagogues every Sabbath day."

...are simply the beginning of the 613 Torah laws that these infants in the faith will grow to follow. Only these four Torah laws were given to them in their beginning stages of faith so as to not burden them. But as they mature, they will become more Torah observant. According to him, of course.

* sighs *

The Primary Commandments

28 One of the scribes approached. When he heard them debating and saw that Jesus answered them well, he asked Him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?"

29 "This is the most important," Jesus answered:

Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.

31 "The second is: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these."

32 Then the scribe said to Him, "You are right, Teacher! You have correctly said that He is One, and there is no one else except Him. 33 And to love Him with all your heart, with all your understanding, and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, is far more [important] than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And no one dared to question Him any longer. Mark 12:28-34 HCSB

25 Just then an expert in the law stood up to test Him, saying, "Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26 "What is written in the law?" He asked him. "How do you read it?"

27 He answered:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.

28 "You've answered correctly," He told him. "Do this and you will live." Luke 10:25-28

34 When the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in the same place. 35 And one of them, an expert in the law, asked a question to test Him: 36 "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"

37 He said to him, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the greatest and most important commandment. 39 The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments." Matthew 22

I am certain you have even covered these passages with him as well. I think it is clear you are dealing with someone who has the spirit of error. You have a much better chance of having a stone respond to your words than a person with the spirit of error.

David: Hi wooden door!

Wooden Door: ....

David: Did you know that Christ fulfilled the law and -----

Wooden Door: Woo-hooooooooooooooo!! IM SAVED.

lols

smackbucket wrote:He's not saying this. He believes in faith in Christ. BUT then he also believes that anyone who truly has the Spirit will mature and begin to "obey" the "law."

Well, I probably wouldn't argue that one in totality. I think the issue is one of interpreting what or which law that person will be obeying. You see Paul talks about a mysterious law of Christ or law of the Spirit in his letters. And Jeremiah addresses this in part:

"Instead, this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days"—the LORD's declaration. "I will place My law within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people. Jeremiah 31:33 HCSB

I am certain that Jeremiah's reference is not to the 613 laws of the Torah since a good percentage of those laws deal with the sacrificial system which Hebrews makes an extensive argument against. So there's a problem with going back to the blood of goats to atone for the sins of Israel as well as his own and they have an even bigger problem in that there is --- get this one dont miss it -- NO TEMPLE IN ISRAEL in order to have a good portion of these laws carried out according all that is prescribed in scripture. Even if he should weasel out of that one Moses made it very clear that they should not add to the word Deuteronomy 4:6. He must also be prepared to publicly put to death adulterers, sorcerers, homosexuals and all other capital punishment laws in order to FULFILL THE WHOLE LAW. and I could go on.....

:alrighty:

He applies James' view, ie. faith without works is dead. The "works," according to him are the 613 laws.

the beginning of all misinterpretation.... poor exegesis which results in even poorer hermeneutics.

tisk, tisk..

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:33 pm

David L wrote:the beginning of all misinterpretation.... poor exegesis which results in even poorer hermeneutics.

tisk, tisk..

and lifting one or two verses out of the context of the whole. If we want to start in the middle of the chapter, then OK. Let's not forget who is the object of Jesus' scorn and counter remarks - it's the Scribes and Pharisees. This cannot be ignored if we are to see the resulting verses as they were intended.

Matt 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Jesus was often accused of violating the law of Moses. Here is is making a profound statement that he will satisfy (fulfill) the law. This should have given great joy to the hearers, but Jesus knew the Scribes and Pharisees would lose much of their control and reputation as the most holy adherants of the law if it existed no longer.

Matt 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The actual "satisfaction" or fulfillment was yet to come with his death on the cross, so He is assuring them that He is not ignoring or discarding the law nor any part of it.

Matt 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There were no "least" commandments, but the Pharisees in their oral interpretation, divided some of the laws into "minor" and others into "major" transgressions. Much the same as roman catholics teach venial and mortal sins. And they made even the "minor" transgressions so burdensome that they laid heavy burdens on the Jews. Luke 11:46 But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.

In other words, the Scribes and Pharisees made attaining holiness and righteousness according to their terms. Jesus admonishes those within hearing distance:

Matt 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Throughout the 4 gospels, Jesus is constantly refuting the doctrine of the Pharisees. To ignore that, imho, is to not view His words in context with it's intended purpose. Once we understand that the law was still in effect until the death of Jesus in the gospels, we can more easily move on to the epistles of Paul in comprehending the law of grace and the wonderful contrast because Jesus satisfied the law of Moses.

as I see it.....

by **David L** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:05 pm

28 After this, when Jesus knew that everything was now accomplished that the Scripture might be fulfilled, He said, "I'm thirsty!" 29 A jar full of sour wine was sitting there; so they fixed a sponge full of sour wine on hyssop and held it up to His mouth.

30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" Then bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. John 19:28-30 HCSB

I would argue that it is at this point that all that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5 was fulfilled. Of course, I realize that this effort is in vain and such a person has issues with sanctification/legalism which are already dealt with in Galatians, Colossians, and Romans. It's futile to engage such a person and I would argue that Paul admonished us to avoid such people. Of course, if you like to argue then have at it only don't sin in the process.

by **aaron** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:27 pm

It's futile to engage such a person and I would argue that Paul admonished us to avoid such people. Of course, if you like to argue then have at it only don't sin in the process.

Good advice.

by **smackbucket** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:29 pm

David L wrote: 28 After this, when Jesus knew that everything was now accomplished that the Scripture might be fulfilled, He said, "I'm thirsty!" 29 A jar full of sour wine was sitting there; so they fixed a sponge full of sour wine on hyssop and held it up to His mouth.

30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" Then bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. John 19:28-30 HCSB

I would argue that it is at this point that all that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 5 was fulfilled. Of course, I realize that this effort is in vain and such a person has issues with sanctification/legalism which are already dealt with in Galatians, Colossians, and Romans. It's futile to engage such a person and I would argue that Paul admonished us to avoid such people. Of course, if you like to argue then have at it only don't sin in the process.

Wow! David, that is good! "...when Jesus knew that everything was now accomplished[/u] that the Scripture might be fulfilled..." It probably wont' do it for him, of course, but I LOVE it. Good find. And I would love to avoid the guy, but he just started coming to our church about 2 months ago. He's crossed the line big-time once, as we were gathered together. If I was an elder I would have told him not to do it again. Maybe someone did.

Anyway, for now, I HAVE to be around him because he comes and like to corner me and discuss these things. I'm not in the least bit bothered or intimidated, but I would like to have a few "bullets" in the chamber at all times when he claims certain things. He's way off the deep end, but he's a very gentle, friendly guy that truly thinks he's doing God's will by trying to convert people to become "Jewish."

Thanks for everyone's responses!

by **smackbucket** on Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:37 pm

David L, I just realized that it doesn't work.

...until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

"Until heaven and earth pass away" is certainly further away than Christ's death, so I don't think it's applicable. Shoot, I really liked that one for a minute. :grin:

by **Keeping Alert** on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:32 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Matt 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I agree with Abiding and think this is the crux of the matter.

The 613 Torah Laws (603 more than what God gave Moses) do not even meet the standard of God. Perhaps you should ask your friend to consider inventing some more laws.

The next point I would point out that in Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

But to fulfill what? It is clear from the rest of Matthew 5 that Jesus came to fulfill the spiritual intent of the law - the physical law which is the Law of Moses and the 613 Torah Laws (if your friend wants to insist on it) just to not cut it.

God is spirit and it is he who judges the intents of the heart.

Thus thou shalt not kill (the physical) is fulfilled in not being angry against your brother without a cause (the spiritual)

Thou shalt not commit adultery (the physical) is fulfilled in not lusting in the heart (the spiritual)

Jesus called the Pharisees and Saducees in not too flattering terms and it is clear what Jesus considered their observance of their 613 Torah Laws to be.

What's more, Jesus often "flouted" the Sabbath - what does that show of Jesus' assessment of the Torah Laws? I think it is clear that Jesus does not think very much about it, isn't it?

And also, I would agree with someone who posted that sometimes it is just fruitless to argue with someone who is fixed - we can only help that much, the rest we pray and leave it to God, perhaps coming back to him at a later time when he might be a little more illuminated. Many cults out there are just so sure of their bible (quoting more than we do) that they simply will not see your point of view.

Blessings,
KA

by **smackbucket** on Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:50 am

18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

OK, it's clear that we are no longer under the 613. We know that.

2 Cor. 3:11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Any thoughts on "until heaven and earth pass away?"

Eph. 2 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has DESTROYED THE BARRIER, THE DIVIDING WALL OF HOSTILITY, BY ABOLISHING IN HIS FLESH THE LAW WITH ITS COMMANDMENTS AND REGULATIONS.

And many, many more, but any thoughts on what "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished," means?

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:35 am

smackbucket wrote:And many, many more, but any thoughts on what "until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished," means?

I would think this must apply to the moral portion of the law which was never abolished or superceded by Jesus; i.e. the 10 commandments. Adultery will be adultery, murder will be murder, etc. until "everything" (satan cast into the lake of fire) has been accomplished. The moral portion of the law taught primarily the love of God and fair, honest treatment of one's neighbor. This was reinforced by Jesus throughout the gospels and the epistiles as well. Jesus clearly contrasts the judicial laws to the moral (spiritual) ones which the Pharisees consistently ignored.

by **smackbucket** on Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:46 pm

Abiding,

The more I look into it, the less I think this is viable. It seem clear that "the law," was viewed as the entire entity by the Jewish believers at that time, not just the ten commandments. Especially considering the fact that Jesus said, "The law and the prophets."

Even if it was referring simply to the ten, it wouldn't hold water, I don't think, because we are not in need to follow the Sabbath rest in the way it was given in the 10 commandments to the Jews. I usually don't have such a tough time figuring a passage out, but this one is proving to be a tough one for me!

It reminds me of about a decade ago when I first starting investigating preterism. There were a few verses that seemed to clearly be in support of preterism, and I just couldn't figure them out. But once I did, it was very obvious. I know that this will happen with the Matthew 5 passage, too, but it's not happening yet! I'm still stumped and feeling like a bible newbie! :grin:

by **Rich Kelley** on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:20 pm

Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

What must be seen is what does fulfill mean, and what does all is accomplished mean. Until that is know, nothing matters.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:38 pm

smackbucket wrote:The more I look into it, the less I think this is viable. It seem clear that "the law," was viewed as the entire entity by the Jewish believers at that time, not just the ten commandments. Especially considering the fact that Jesus said, "The law and the prophets."

Even if it was referring simply to the ten, it wouldn't hold water, I don't think, because we are not in need to follow the Sabbath rest in the way it was given in the 10 commandments to the Jews.

Hi smackbucket,

I didn't mean just the ten commandments. I used them as an example of those laws that taught God's expectations of loving Him and loving one another (our neighbor). Those are perpetual. It's pretty much common sense, imho, that the Jews could distinguish between the judicial civil laws, the ceremonial laws of worship, and those that deal with treatment of one another (moral). If we can distinguish between them and their purpose, I should think they could. Similar to our understanding the difference between spiritual, scriptural commands and federal, state, and civil laws.

The prophets merely reinforced the necessity of "loving the Lord they God...." and proclaiming the end result of the Israelites apostasy as well as the coming redeemer.

Jesus was saying that everything concerning morality will never be done away with. And all the words spoken by the prophets are consummated in the birth, death, resurrection of the savior and the judgement of the nations at the end of the age.

Read it again with this interpretation in mind:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matt 5:17-18

Makes perfect sense to me.... :wink:

by **Keeping Alert** on Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:01 pm

smackbucket wrote:Anyway, for now, I HAVE to be around him because he comes and like to corner me and discuss these things. I'm not in the least bit bothered or intimidated, but I would like to have a few "bullets" in the chamber at all times when he claims certain things. He's way off the deep end, but he's a very gentle, friendly guy that truly thinks he's doing God's will by trying to convert people to become "Jewish."

I think as long as he is pulling you aside and asking you to discuss the matter privately, it is probably ok. But if he is going around to the other members of the congregation trying to "convert people to become Jewish" I think you might want to consider telling him that it is not right to do so. He is disturbing the peace of the church and the weaker ones might be stumbled because of him. Take good care of your flock, smackbucket.

Blessings,
KA

by **smackbucket** on Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:09 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:
smackbucket wrote:Anyway, for now, I HAVE to be around him because he comes and like to corner me and discuss these things. I'm not in the least bit bothered or intimidated, but I would like to have a few "bullets" in the chamber at all times when he claims certain things. He's way off the deep end, but he's a very gentle, friendly guy that truly thinks he's doing God's will by trying to convert people to become "Jewish."

I think as long as he is pulling you aside and asking you to discuss the matter privately, it is probably ok. But if he is going around to the other members of the congregation trying to "convert people to become Jewish" I think you might want to consider telling him that it is not right to do so. He is disturbing the peace of the church and the weaker ones might be stumbled because of him. Take good care of your flock, smackbucket.

Blessings,
KA

Thanks, KA. I don't think any will get suckered. There's more than just me watching to make sure. But I'll gladly hand him a Scalpel and inform him he should cut the whole thing off if I see him actually gaining influence with an individual about circumcision, food, the Sabbath, etc. :wink:

by **smackbucket** on Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:28 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
smackbucket wrote:The more I look into it, the less I think this is viable. It seem clear that "the law," was viewed as the entire entity by the Jewish believers at that time, not just the ten commandments. Especially considering the fact that Jesus said, "The law and the prophets."

Even if it was referring simply to the ten, it wouldn't hold water, I don't think, because we are not in need to follow the Sabbath rest in the way it was given in the 10 commandments to the Jews.

Hi smackbucket,

I didn't mean just the ten commandments. I used them as an example of those laws that taught God's expectations of loving Him and loving one another (our neighbor). Those are perpetual. It's pretty much common sense, imho, that the Jews could distinguish between the judicial civil laws, the ceremonial laws of worship, and those that deal with treatment of one another (moral). If we can distinguish between them and their purpose, I should think they could. Similar to our understanding the difference between spiritual, scriptural commands and federal, state, and civil laws.

The prophets merely reinforced the necessity of "loving the Lord they God...." and proclaiming the end result of the Israelites apostasy as well as the coming redeemer.

Jesus was saying that everything concerning morality will never be done away with. And all the words spoken by the prophets are consummated in the birth, death, resurrection of the savior and the judgement of the nations at the end of the age.

Read it again with this interpretation in mind:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matt 5:17-18

Makes perfect sense to me....

I know it seems clear to you, and maybe it will to me in time. But for now, this explanation doesn't seem like one that can be proven in a way that other truths can be. I seems more like an example of, "Well, it's GOT to be this way because we know we don't need to observe the dietary laws, Sabbath laws, clothing laws," etc. It's seeming like a passage that we just know isn't saying what our Judaizing friends claim it says because we understand Galations, Hebrews, Colossians," etc, etc.

I want to be able to dissect the passage, itself, better than I've done thus far.

by **Kathe** on Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:27 am

Just a note. The doctrine of the pharasees that Jesus refuted was not the Torah but the hundreds of extra laws (doctrines) that they had added over the years. It had nothing to do with the actual Torah (teaching) or God's laws. The other thing that Jesus brought out was that keeping the Torah without a heart that was right was worthless. Someone with a right heart would keep the law automatically but someone who kept the law without a right heart wasn't right with God.

www.torahclass.com

by **CaryC** on Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:07 pm

Hey smackbucket,

Just putting this up as my opinion, and you can take it for what it's worth, and I hope it helps:

In commentaries the reference to the jot and tittle was in reply to the Pharisees who thought there were big laws and little laws and the little ones were OK to break. But in dealing with your friend and Matt. 5 I would ask for some clarification and/or agreement of three points:

1) The Levitical Law concerning sacrifices and the blood of goats and bulls, is what was a shadow and has passed away. Hebrews deals extensively with this.

2) The 10 Commandments which is what was addressed in Matthew 5 specifically. Anger/hatred=murder, lust=adultery etc.... Which is summarized with those two commandments Love the Lord with all your..... and your neighbor as yourself. This law pre-dates Mt. Sinai--if Satan had of kept the the first one--Love the Lord with all your.... he would not of fallen and will continue on until ....like forever.

3) The 613 Torah Laws of which I might need some clarification myself. But if these laws are the ones the scribes used in a social setting like washing hands before eating (for purity purposes), not walking more than ....a mile (?) on the sabbath (if you did you weren't resting), not doing any servile work on the the sabbath, those type of laws, then they were not addressed in Matt. 5. The scribes were interpreters of the law. In the social network in Israel, there were no prisons or judges per say. Any law breaker was brought before the Levites (he killed my cow) and a judgment was made ( the law says we have to kill your cow). Well, the scribe (basically a lawyer) was there to interpret the law and render meaning like; you can't walk over so much on the Sabbath or else you'll be breaking the Law, sort of thing. In Matt. 5 Jesus uses the phrase "you've heard it said...." they heard it said from the scribes. "But I tell you..." as compared to those scribes- the real lawgiver, that it just wasn't in the external keeping of the law, but was in the heart where it mattered.

But concerning those laws of washing the hands, doing no servile work on the sabbath, or traveling on the sabbath, Jesus Himself broke those laws. Remember the disciples were walking through a wheat field and gleaned some and ate it without washing their hands. What one of you who had a cow/mule/donkey in a well would not rescue him on the sabbath, is it not more lawful to heal on the sabbath. Healing on the sabbath is what got the scribes and Pharisees noses so out of joint that they wanted to kill Him. Now can your friend say that we are to keep them when even He didn't.

To love the Lord with all your heart..... and your neighbor as yourself is the law that Christ came to fulfill. In doing so, (He did and is the only one who has, totally) He was able then to become our sacrifice. As we are born again and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit it becomes our desire to also fulfill these two commandments, and God gives us the ability to do so Phil. 2: 13. When we fall/fail and repent, we have an advocate with the Father, someone who can identify with our infirmities, and we have forgiveness.

I would also suggest taking those portions which your friend has extracted from Matt. 5 to suit his purposes, and reinsert them back into, not just Matt. 5, but into the whole context of the Sermon on the Mount. Which starts with "Blessed are......" and ends with building your house on the Rock.

If that helps, and you want some more information, I'll be glad to give my view on it.

by **smackbucket** on Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:53 pm

Cary, I think you're getting some of the oral laws confused with the 613 Mosaic Torah laws.

Here's a list of the 613.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Gosh, I'm glad I don't have to think about them! :grin:

by **brandon** on Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:29 pm

Jesus didn't abolish the law. If He did, how could He be able to judge the world righteously and with equity? The law still stands to condemn any and all who break it, down the to last jot and tittle.

What is the point of the law?

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Paul also calls the law the "ministry of death" in 2 Corinthians. With that in mind, read Romans 3-6. Then go read what Jesus said in this passage you're referring to. He came to fulfill the law. Romans says that we who believe are dead to the law because we are believing in Christ's death and resurrection because He did exactly that. He fulfilled it.

Are we dead to the law, or are we not dead to the law?

Jesus' teaching is the nail in the coffin of the legalist. See, you can't bend God's law. It is irrefutable, unyielding, and will last until the present earth is burned up with fire. The law is perfect. But the law cannot save. It can only condemn. So how can we teach the world that the law no longer applies to it? How can we dare "bend the rules" or lighten the eternal weight of the law on the sinner's shoulders? Yet this is EXACTLY what the hypocritical teachers were doing in Christ's day!!!! They had a system that had devolved from looking to God alone for salvation to looking for the system for salvation. Abraham, the patriarchs, the judges, the kings, the prophets, THEY WERE ALL JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, according the Hebrews 11. They believed and were righteous!

Jesus stands up in this crowd and strips and tears away the man made paint and decorations used to disguise the law in Jewish culture. He stripped it down to the bare bones of pure, uncompromising holiness and said "I came to fulfill this." He brought it back to the days of Sinai, the mountain of fire towering over sinners, even the elders who thought they were better. And then He paid the price, so that all who believe are baptized into His death and resurrection. We are DEAD to the law. Don't let anyone tell you different.

Again, to reiterate here, the law gives God the ability to judge the other in perfect righteousness. It is His tool to hold the world accountable for sin. It is unchangeable, but through Christ we have a better way, not a mountain of fire, but a river of perfect grace. The two simply do not mix.

In fact, the letter to the Hebrews was written to the Hebrews being tempted to return to living by the whole law, including the priesthood, sacrificial and temple system, etc. It is a powerful treatise again legalism and the return to religion.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:53 pm

It is a powerful treatise again legalism and the return to religion.

Beautifully said, brandon! "Religiosity" I call it!

by **smackbucket** on Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:14 pm

brandon wrote:Jesus didn't abolish the law. If He did, how could He be able to judge the world righteously and with equity? The law still stands to condemn any and all who break it, down the to last jot and tittle.

What is the point of the law?

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Paul also calls the law the "ministry of death" in 2 Corinthians. With that in mind, read Romans 3-6. Then go read what Jesus said in this passage you're referring to. He came to fulfill the law. Romans says that we who believe are dead to the law because we are believing in Christ's death and resurrection because He did exactly that. He fulfilled it.

Are we dead to the law, or are we not dead to the law?

Jesus' teaching is the nail in the coffin of the legalist. See, you can't bend God's law. It is irrefutable, unyielding, and will last until the present earth is burned up with fire. The law is perfect. But the law cannot save. It can only condemn. So how can we teach the world that the law no longer applies to it? How can we dare "bend the rules" or lighten the eternal weight of the law on the sinner's shoulders? Yet this is EXACTLY what the hypocritical teachers were doing in Christ's day!!!! They had a system that had devolved from looking to God alone for salvation to looking for the system for salvation. Abraham, the patriarchs, the judges, the kings, the prophets, THEY WERE ALL JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, according the Hebrews 11. They believed and were righteous!

Jesus stands up in this crowd and strips and tears away the man made paint and decorations used to disguise the law in Jewish culture. He stripped it down to the bare bones of pure, uncompromising holiness and said "I came to fulfill this." He brought it back to the days of Sinai, the mountain of fire towering over sinners, even the elders who thought they were better. And then He paid the price, so that all who believe are baptized into His death and resurrection. We are DEAD to the law. Don't let anyone tell you different.

Again, to reiterate here, the law gives God the ability to judge the other in perfect righteousness. It is His tool to hold the world accountable for sin. It is unchangeable, but through Christ we have a better way, not a mountain of fire, but a river of perfect grace. The two simply do not mix.

In fact, the letter to the Hebrews was written to the Hebrews being tempted to return to living by the whole law, including the priesthood, sacrificial and temple system, etc. It is a powerful treatise again legalism and the return to religion.

But, but, but:

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven..."

You're annulling even MORE than the "least" of them. You're telling me they're ALL annulled. You will be least in the kingdom of heaven, if you even make it (not MY words...his).

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:38 pm

smackbucket wrote:But, but, but:

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven..."

You're annulling even MORE than the "least" of them. You're telling me they're ALL annulled. You will be least in the kingdom of heaven, if you even make it (not MY words...his).

There were no "least commandments." The Pharisees devised a "system" of important, more important, and less important commands from the law. Jesus was refuting their "religious" but erroneous interpretation of the commands within the law.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. James 2:10

by **brandon** on Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:42 pm

Absolutely not! The law is not annulled! It stands forever to condemn the sinner before God. Until you see God's purpose for the law, you will always be caught up in this stuff. Christians don't have anything to do with the law. We are dead to it.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

According to your misinterpretation, Paul is also least in the kingdom of heaven as well (although interestingly enough, he says he is least in the kingdom, when he is held in high regard by God and His people).

Let's be very clear here: the law isn't dead, I am. If you can wrap your head around that concept for a bit, eventually you'll see that Christ never annulled the law or took it away: He fulfilled its requirements perfectly, and then died, and then rose again. By believing in this, we who are dead in our sins and headed for eternal condemnation are saved and justified before God.

The law will always stand against the sinner. We who believe have died to the law and now are released from the law.

The sin of the pharisees was that they bent the law, and even broke it. They dressed it up in a way that allowed them to use it to harm the people. Christ's message is ultimately designed to completely obliterate their wicked logic.

Look at this verse:

20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

These guys were the creme de la creme of Jewish culture and society! They were experts, priests, religious zealots, and legalists to the nth degree. And Christ says "you have to be better then these "models of perfection." They were teaching and bending the rules while denying their own sin. They even called Christ a sinner, implying that they were in a position to judge Him to be so!

When Christ says, "Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven," He is talking to people living under the law of God. He's talking to sinners, and He's making sure that the people know that these so-called religious purists are in the same boat.

His message to His disciples over and over again was to warn them against the religious leadership of the day. The man who annuls the law, who attempts to relax the eternal burden and weight of it on the sinner's back, fights against the purpose of the law and degrades his position in the kingdom of God, if he even has one.

Hope that helps. In all seriousness, make sure you know your Romans really good when you go up against a legalist; Paul's Holy Spirit inspired writings level any twisting of scripture.

by **CaryC** on Sat May 02, 2009 9:47 am

Hey smackbucket,

O....(well duh had a senior moment, granted a looooong moment, but you can't judge these things) those 613 Torah Laws, well why didn't you say so.

Now to continue with my fourth point, the 613 Torah Laws:

Side Bar: Your friend believes that we must adhere to these laws? Really? Does he adhere to them? Then he, being a non-jew, wears a Teffillin? Like how weird is that? I wish I believed in them when me and Sherree got married (#
# That a bridegroom shall be exempt for a whole year from taking part in any public labor) and then I would marry her every year after that. Man, like how cool is that (says Dr. House)!

Another side bar: Just from your post here, your friend sounds like he would be a conservative, maybe even pushing right of center right. As compared to someone who would be loose or liberal view of scripture. If that truely is the case then you are the one that would come across as a liberal/loose in his eyes, and you won't make any head way in trying to persuade him to your point of view. There would be a ...strictness in his philosophy. I'm not saying you are liberal or loose with scripture. I'm saying he would perceive you as such. To counter that then you might try letting him come to your conclusion on his own. Meaning: probe him.

Not to let my first three points go to waste: Ask him if he sees any difference in; the Levitical /Rabbinic Law (meaning the sacrifices and blood of bulls and goats, which was done away/fulfilled with/at the Cross ), and the 10 Commandments encapsulated in Love the Lord with all ....., and your neighbor as yourself (which are eternal on each side of the time line we live on), and the oral law (which Christ Himself broke)?

If he says, "Yes", then ask, "Howso" since each are a "Law" and would not these "Laws" fall under the same mandate expressed in Matt. 5, "not one jot or tittle shall pass away". The idea is to get him to understand that just because it says "Law" or "Laws" it doesn't mean every law. And for our purposes the text, the context, of those verses are dealing with the 10 Commandments as they are encapsulated in Love the Lord and your neighbor as yourself. And that this/these laws are not only for external purposes (you must be more righteous than the Pharisees) but also include the intents of the heart.

Then where and how did these 613 Torah Laws come into existence? The verses "they" use to backup or confirm these laws is found in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deut., but the most telling may come from Deut. 5: 1-3 Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Mt Horeb is Mt. Sinai so the reference here is to Exodus 19. Most notably v. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people; for all the earth is mine;

The the Lord goes on to list all these laws, and in Deut. 28, 29 He lists the Blessings and Curses associated with keeping and breaking these laws (613 Torah Laws) note Deut 28: 9 The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God , and walk in his ways.

The feeble attempt I am trying to make is that the 613 Torah laws were and came into existence because of a covenant between the Lord, and a people, or rather a Nation, the Nation of Israel. Those outside the Nation of Israel, Gentiles, do not come under those same laws because they are not a part of this same covenant. Even the Jews recognize this.

If your friend tries to put the Gentile Christians under these same laws because we are grafted in, based on Romans 9-11, then I would point out to him we are grafted into the covenant made with Abraham in Gen. 17, not the covenant with the Nation of Israel. Today you can get on a plane and land in a place called Israel, which is a nation. You cannot do that with the church. There is no Nation of Christianity with a representative at the UN. Because of this or lack there of, those 613 Torah Laws do not apply to, at least gentile Christians. Messianic Jews on the other hand may need to deal with this more closely, but I've already got enough to deal with.

Also as a backup, no where, that I know of, do the early church fathers, and we can go back all the way to John, who were prolific writers ever, note, ever proclaimed that we must come under those 613 Laws. All of that is the background, basis, for what the Council of Jerusalem proclaimed as putting on the gentile believers in Acts 15. And what Paul had to deal with in those who where saying that the gentiles had to be circumcised. Even though circumcision was a sign of the covenant with Abraham, it was also termed to mean becoming a member of the Nation of Israel (note Timothy) and coming under those 613 laws of the Nation of Israel, which that covenant with Abraham did not do.

Well, I hope that helps.

by **smackbucket** on Sat May 02, 2009 1:16 pm

Some good thoughts, Cary. I'll read your post again when I get a chance. It's funny debating this guy. I can prove him wrong 20 times with other passages of scripture (and have), but he always comes back to Matt 5: 17-20, as if all scripture to be funneled through one passage, and is unable to hear anything else other than what him mind is stuck on. I've put enough time into debating him, but will continue to converse with him when i see him at church, for a while at least. We'll see how pushy and circumcision groupish he gets to determine how much I put up with. And yes, he does wear a beenie. :)

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat May 02, 2009 1:32 pm

smackbucket wrote: And yes, he does wear a beenie. :)

Why don't you ask him how he interprets this?

1Cor. 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God...

:wink:

by **smackbucket** on Sat May 02, 2009 1:41 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
smackbucket wrote: And yes, he does wear a beenie. :)

Why don't you ask him how he interprets this?

1Cor. 11:7 For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God...

I know, there's probably 100+ verses I could show him, but he now says stuff like, "So are you saying I should have Paul as my God, rather than Jesus? Jesus said to follow the 613. Who should I listen to, Paul or Jesus?"

He's gone, man. Gone. :dunno:

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat May 02, 2009 2:29 pm

smackbucket wrote:I know, there's probably 100+ verses I could show him, but he now says stuff like, "So are you saying I should have Paul as my God, rather than Jesus? Jesus said to follow the 613. Who should I listen to, Paul or Jesus?"

Does he think they contradict one another? Interesting.... might be time to shake the dust from your feet....

by **smackbucket** on Sat May 02, 2009 2:52 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Does he think they contradict one another? Interesting.... might be time to shake the dust from your feet....

I CLEARLY proved him wrong, and he knew it. That's when he said I was suggesting he Iisten to Paul instead of Jesus as if Paul MUST be wrong because Jesus was so "clear" in Matt 5. The more we talk the more he's shown to be out to lunch in a major way. And yep, you're right. Shake, shake, shake.

by **CaryC** on Sat May 02, 2009 7:11 pm

Hey smackbucket,

Sure, whatever is fine with me, no problem. Just let me know if I can clarify something--I'll just claim a senior moment if I'm wrong----uh, I mean miss something.

I just have problems with him seeing Matt. 5 as inclusive of the 613 Torah Laws, but not include the Rabbinic law, or oral law. The text/context of Matt. 5: 17-19 doesn't specify the 613 Torah Laws, so how can he exclude the others arbitrarily, out of his own reason?

by **CaryC** on Thu May 07, 2009 7:56 am

Hey,

Just following up on my previous post, and is probably more for me than for you. And if we take your friends view that the Law referenced in Matt. 5 is pertaining to the 613 Torah laws, then we must discover when and where and who they pertain to.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

As a little background: Deuteronomy is a second telling of events that happened some, nearly 40 years earlier. (The word Deuteronomy is taken from the same place we get Duet, or Duo.) So the folks who are listening to Moses speak here were only 19 years old or younger when the actual events happened. So in verse 3 when Moses says "our fathers" he's speaking about all those who refused to go into the promised land, and have died in the wilderness, those age 20 and above.

The covenant mentioned above is the one made at Mt. Sinai, and please note that it did not pertain to those who were present at the making of the covenant. Why is that? Because as events bore out, they would not enter the Promised Land, but die in the wilderness. But to those "who are all of us here alive this day".

Then Moses recants the 10 Commandments to those present, and summarizes them in verse 6: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And then he says in verse 6 "these words.......shall be in thine heart;"

Then note the following references:

Deu 6:17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.
Deu 6:18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers,

Deu 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

Deu 8:6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
Deu 8:7 For the LORD thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills;

Then a description of what the Lord has given them follows.

As you go through all these verses note that it is in conjunction with possessing the land that the Lord has given them, that these commandments, judgments, and statues are to be kept. So that they can be victorious in conquering the other inhabitants, live in houses they did not build, eat from gardens they did not plant, drink from vineyards they did not harvest, and drink from wells they did not dig. As far as I know, no where in scripture are Christians, gentile Christians given that promise. That we will have land, houses, gardens, vineyards, and wells, if we come to the Lord and keep those 613 Torah Laws.

There is much to be said about the 10 Commandments, Covenants, and using the Old Testament as a schoolmaster to us, but that is not the topic of your friend, only the 613 Torah Laws, and if they apply to us, gentile Christians.

I hope that helps and isn't over kill.

by **Mrs. B** on Thu May 07, 2009 9:48 am

Jesus said you must observe the 613 Torah Laws!

Abraham.....

Romans 4:1.......What shall we say then that Abraham our Father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2....For if Abraham were Justified by works, he hath whereof to Glory:
but not before God.

3....For what saith the Scriptures?

Abraham believed God,

and it was counted unto him for Righteousness....

13....For the Promise.....that he should be the Heir of the World, was not to Abraham, or to his seed,........
Through the Law.....But through the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH...

14....FOR IF THEY WHICH ARE OF THE LAW BE HEIRS, FAITH IS MADE VOID.....
and the Promise made of none effect:

15....Because the Law worketh wrath:
for where no law is.....there is no transgression...

16...THEREFORE IT IS OF FAITH....THAT IT MIGHT BE.....BY GRACE;
TO the end The Promise Might be sure TO ALL THE SEED;
not to that only which is of the law, but that also which is of the Faith of Abraham;
Who is the Father of us All.....

17....(As it is written, I Have Made Thee a Father of Many Nations...
before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and call those things which be not as though they were,

18....who against hope...belie ed in hope...that he might become the father of Many Nations,
according to that which was spoken...So shall thy Seed Be....

19....And being not weak in Faith.... he considered Not His Own Body now dead....when He was about an hundred years old...neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20....He staggered Not at the Promise of God through Unbelief;
But was strong in Fait giving Glory to God;

21....And being fully Persuaded that, what he had promised he was able also to perform....

22....And it was IMPUTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS....

ROMANS 5:1....THEREFORE....Being Justified by Faith...we have peace with God Through Our Lord Jesus Christ:

2....By Whom also...We have Access...by Faith into this GRACE....Wherein we stand, and rejoice in Hope of the Glory of God....

13....For Until the Law Sin was in the World:
But sin is not imputed when there is no Law...

17....For if By One Man's offence death reigned..Adam

Much More they which Receive Abundance of GRACE and of the Gift of Righteousness shall reign in life by one....JESUS CHRIST....

18...THEREFORE....as by the offence of one Judgment Came upon all men to Condemnation:
Even so..By the Righteousness of One..The Free Gift Came upon all men unto Justification of Life...

19...For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners......so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous...

20....Moreover the Law entered that the offence might abound...
But where sin abounded....GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND:

21....That as Sin hath reigned unto death.....
Even so Might Grace Reign through Righteousness unto Eternal Life by Jesus Christ our Lord.....

Rom. 6:1...WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN?
SHALL WE CONTINUE IN SIN,......THAT GRACE MAY ABOUND?

2....God Forbid....
How shall we, that are dead to sin...live any longer therein?

11....Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED UNTO SIN...
BUT ALIVE UNTO GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD......

14....For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not UNDER THE LAW.....BUT UNDER GRACE...

We are now the Children of Abraham by Our Faith....
Born Again of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God....

bb

by **Kathe** on Thu May 07, 2009 10:28 am

If you anul the 613 torah laws then there is no point to what Jesus did. I'm doing an exhaustive study on them and believe me once you understand them you are head over heels grateful for what Jesus did on the cross. Saying that the laws have no point is a lie of this dispensation and takes away the hugeness of what He came to do. I also truly believe that once understood instead of overlooked, a Christ follower will do his/her best to keep those laws. There is not one place in the bible that says they are no longer important. In fact, as has been posted already, in Jesus own words in the Sermon on the Mount He states they are all still valid. As Christians we want to live a clean and holy life. Following the Torah laws is our guideline to doing just that. It's so sad that the church has so watered down the gospel that most of the bible isn't even taught anymore.

I am just about through Leviticus and although I've read it many times before I now look at it through different eyes. It is a fascinating book.

www.torahclass.com if anyone is interested. Free downloads.

by **Mrs. B** on Thu May 07, 2009 1:09 pm

We are now under a NEW COVENANT....

Gal. 5:4.....Christ is become of No Effect unto you....Whosoever of you are Justified by the Law;
YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE...

5...For we through the Spirit wait for the Hope of Righteousness by Faith....

Gal. 5:14.....For ALL THE LAW IS FULFILLED IN ONE WORD.....EVEN IN THIS;

Thou shall Love thy Neighbour as thyself...

15....But if ye bite and devour one another...take heed that ye be not consumed one of another...

16....This I say then.....Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall NOT Fulfil the Lust of the Flesh...

17.....For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the Flesh:
and these are contrary the one to the Other:
So that ye cannot do the things that ye would...

18....BUT if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are NOT Under the Law....

22....But the Fruit of the Spirit
Is Love
Joy,
Peace,
Longsuffering,
Gentleness,
Goodness,
Faith, Meekness, Temperance:
Against such there is No Law...

24.....And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust...

25...If We Live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit...

bb

by **AndCanItBe** on Thu May 07, 2009 1:24 pm

Amen, Mrs. B!

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu May 07, 2009 4:26 pm

Kathe wrote:If you anul the 613 torah laws then there is no point to what Jesus did. I'm doing an exhaustive study on them and believe me once you understand them you are head over heels grateful for what Jesus did on the cross.

Kathe, I don't think anyone here hasn't read the Mosaic Law and isn't grateful for Jesus' death on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the forgivenss of sin.

Saying that the laws have no point is a lie of this dispensation and takes away the hugeness of what He came to do.

If someone said that there is no point to the law, they are indeed mistaken. However, I hope you will agree that the law was given to Jews and not to gentiles. And Jews who accept Jesus as their High Priest who has once for all time offered Himself as the atonement for their sins, will recognize that the Law led to a knowledge of sin, but could not make one holy.

For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.Hebrews 7:26-28

I also truly believe that once understood instead of overlooked, a Christ follower will do his/her best to keep those laws.

Actually, just the opposite is true, Kathe. A Christ-follower minimizes the sacrifice of the cross by his/her efforts to achieve holiness through the law. Paul says it this way:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6

Paul is telling the Jews that they have been released from the law once they have believed in Jesus and His "once for all" sacrifice.

There is not one place in the bible that says they are no longer important. In fact, as has been posted already, in Jesus own words in the Sermon on the Mount He states they are all still valid.

Jesus' public ministry served as a transition from the old covenant which made no one holy, to the new covenant of grace by faith which makes all who believe holy by virtue of His sacrifice as opposed to the covenant of works.

As Christians we want to live a clean and holy life. Following the Torah laws is our guideline to doing just that. It's so sad that the church has so watered down the gospel that most of the bible isn't even taught anymore.

No, the Torah laws were given to the Jews not to the gentiles. The Law of Moses created a wall of division or separation between Jews and Gentiles. But in Christ, that wall of separation has been removed and we are one in Him.

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Eph 2:11-13

Paul is not asking Gentiles to become Jews and neither do we ask Christians to come under the Law given to Jews which was a shadow of the New Covenant. Jesus satisfied the requirements of the Law with His death on the cross.

I am just about through Leviticus and although I've read it many times before I now look at it through different eyes. It is a fascinating book.

It is indeed fascinating as are all scripture. They show us how futile are our efforts to become holy by the flesh and laws. Our righteousness is in Him. Jesus made it clear that the great commandments of the New Covenant were to love the Lord, our God with our whole heart, mind and soul and to love one's neighbor as oneself.

Paul says it this way:

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:10

http://www.torahclass.com if anyone is interested. Free downloads.

Thank you for the link in hopes that Christians will benefit by understanding the purpose of the law as established by God for the Jews. But if you are recommending Christians come under the Old Covenant law, this is an erroneous recommendation.

Blessings to you in understanding the difference and purpose of both the Mosaic Law for the Jews and the New Covenant for both Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, male and female, slave and free.

Our God is an awesome God!

by **BeTheMoon** on Thu May 07, 2009 4:48 pm

Kathe wrote:I'm doing an exhaustive study on them and believe me once you understand them you are head over heels grateful for what Jesus did on the cross.

Realizing that it should be me and you on the cross, I'm already grateful (head over heels and moreso).

by **smackbucket** on Thu May 07, 2009 5:07 pm

CaryC wrote:Hey,

Just following up on my previous post, and is probably more for me than for you. And if we take your friends view that the Law referenced in Matt. 5 is pertaining to the 613 Torah laws, then we must discover when and where and who they pertain to.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

As a little background: Deuteronomy is a second telling of events that happened some, nearly 40 years earlier. (The word Deuteronomy is taken from the same place we get Duet, or Duo.) So the folks who are listening to Moses speak here were only 19 years old or younger when the actual events happened. So in verse 3 when Moses says "our fathers" he's speaking about all those who refused to go into the promised land, and have died in the wilderness, those age 20 and above.

The covenant mentioned above is the one made at Mt. Sinai, and please note that it did not pertain to those who were present at the making of the covenant. Why is that? Because as events bore out, they would not enter the Promised Land, but die in the wilderness. But to those "who are all of us here alive this day".

Then Moses recants the 10 Commandments to those present, and summarizes them in verse 6: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

And then he says in verse 6 "these words.......shall be in thine heart;"

Then note the following references:

Deu 6:17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.
Deu 6:18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers,

Deu 8:1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.

Deu 8:6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
Deu 8:7 For the LORD thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills;

Then a description of what the Lord has given them follows.

As you go through all these verses note that it is in conjunction with possessing the land that the Lord has given them, that these commandments, judgments, and statues are to be kept. So that they can be victorious in conquering the other inhabitants, live in houses they did not build, eat from gardens they did not plant, drink from vineyards they did not harvest, and drink from wells they did not dig. As far as I know, no where in scripture are Christians, gentile Christians given that promise. That we will have land, houses, gardens, vineyards, and wells, if we come to the Lord and keep those 613 Torah Laws.

There is much to be said about the 10 Commandments, Covenants, and using the Old Testament as a schoolmaster to us, but that is not the topic of your friend, only the 613 Torah Laws, and if they apply to us, gentile Christians.

I hope that helps and isn't over kill.

Not overkill at all. I appreciate everyone's thoughts!