Heresy Touters Saved?

[AndCanItBe]

[water]

My friend believes that you CANNOT believe in free will without it pointing to the fact (in her mind) that you are not depending and trusting alone in the work of Jesus at the cross. She believes it is adding to the Gospel and comes from pride in keeping oneself.
So...since she won't budge in understanding it any other way...then it is heresy to her.
I understand her point even if I don't agree with her about it.

Ah, I get it. I have a friend who belongs to a Lutheran denomination, I forget which one, but they take it to the next level. They believe that you can't earn salvation to such a degree that even making a decision to follow Christ is works-based and heresy. To him, salvation is a free gift to all who do not reject it (which of course is works-based too, but you can't argue that point with him either, LOL).

I am still not sure I understand your friend's position. She believes OSAS is true, but she believes that if we had free will it would in some way usurp Christ's authority?

When I use the term free will, I am talking about our God-given right to choose right or wrong, to choose Jesus or reject him.

In my mind, if you remove free will, then you are talking about predestiny, which is where God alone chooses who will respond to him and who will reject him.

If it is God who chooses who rejects him, then it is God who is sending people to Hell and it is like God himself sinning, which we know is impossible.

If God made you in such a way that you had no choice but to reject him, then why would he come in human form to save anyone from Hell?

In doing this, God would have made two types of jelly beans, those he loves to eat and those he tosses in the dumpter. Why would God make jelly beans just to throw them away?

If God predestines some for Heaven and some for Hell, then why do we even try to do anything, since we really have no say in the matter or even a mind to decide?

If God says you are going to Hell regardless of anything you do, then did you ever really have a chance to accept Jesus?

On the flipside, if God says you are going to Heaven, then could you kill and rape as you pleased?

How could Jesus be the stone the builders rejected if there is no free will? Jesus would be the stone that God rejected because God made robots programmed to reject Jesus.

God does not punish people by sending them to Hell, people punish themselves by not choosing Jesus.

Just like a 4-year old given the choice between ice cream for not sassing and a time-out for sassing, we too choose our fate.

Free will as I understand it says that there is a God who loves us and gave us a Way back to him, but we have to choose him. There are only two choices...to be with God forever to to be without God forever. If one chooses to reject God forever, the only place God doesn't inhabit is Hell, and that is where one is off to.

oh man...don't get me going Water!!! lol Just this weekend at a church I visited, the pastor was using the NIV and had my KJV...they said different things - one of them has to be right and one wrong.

LOL, I hope you know I am just hazing you. I know that you know that we do not agree, but since God won't be asking us which translation we read when we are before his throne, we can just let you live out your minor heresy in the comfort that it is a moot point. (I know, I am so mean...hehe). You know I love you, Miz.

[water]

Let's not go there...whole other topic!! They usually get locked anyway.

So true. It always starts with an honest question, but then Miz starts making physical threats and we have to call the FBI.

[mizbayakh]

I agree with you Water




.






(you do love me... )


No, seriously - since you wrote what you wrote above I guess we couldn't classify you as a Calvinist:

5 Points of Calvinism

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our s fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

[water]

I agree with you Water




.






(you do love me... )

LOL, nice one!

No, seriously - since you wrote what you wrote above I guess we couldn't classify you as a Calvinist:

5 Points of Calvinism

Allow me to translate: 5 Points of Predestiny.

[jay7]

andcanitbe,

Quote:
So back to the topic, I personally don't believe in OSAS. I believe in freewill although not 100 percent as God intervenes in peoples lives when He wants to. I don't believe all will be saved even though God would like that to happen. I'm sure there are names for the positions I hold but I don't know them offhand. That's my two cents plus to the thread lol



I wanted to ask a question jay7 and mizbyakh. Based on the statement above and your agreement mizbyakh, do you think that those of us who do agree with OSAS think EVERYONE will be saved? I'm asking because the above statement seemed to imply that to me, but I wanted clarification. I also ask because if either of you do equate OSAS with a belief that in the end we will all be saved, that is a misconception, and I wanted to clear it up. OSAS simply means you can not lose your salvation once you have it. Not everyone will have salvation. You can't lose what you never had to start with. I just wanted to make sure that was clear.

I was just trying to comment on everything I thought was related to this topic, not that I thought you or the OSAS also teaches universal salvation. I just don't agree with either doctrines.

[AndCanItBe]

Thanks for clearing that up jay7!

[water]

Jay, I need that avatar of yours for some stray trees behind my property.

[jay7]

Water,

All of those who do not think OSAS is true need to answer these questions: Can the Lord be trusted? If he can be trusted, can we trust all of his promises? If so, then what part of his promise to finish the work he began in us allows for us to be saved yet be destined for Hell?

Read that again: salvation is not something we can earn.

I disagree. We earn it through our faith and obedience:


2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.



Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Those that do not obey Christ will not be saved.


Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

To "work out" your own salvation means to work for, earn or achieve it in the Greek.

If we can't earn it the first time, how can we lose it or gain it again?

We can earn it as well as lose it:


Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Do you doubt that any of his promises regarding Israel will be fulfilled? If not, why would you doubt his promise to finish the work he began in you?

He will finish his work but that does not equal him doing all the work for salvation while the subject mindlessly and irresponsibly does nothing themselves. If the one will not "obey Him" then that work is finished and salvation will not be for them.

Jesus is the once-and-for-all sacrifice. He is an eternal God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we need to scramble back to the Lord to renew our salavation, as if it expires or is made null when we slip and fall.

Actually it does. It speaks of "repenting unto salvation" which means there is no salvation while we have unrepented sins. It also says we need to "work out our own salvation" which is related. What it does not say is that once someone is "saved" IE: accepts Jesus, that there is nothing else needed for the rest of ones life to maintain that salvation.

Consider this: if we lose our salvation with every sin, only to gain it back again when we confess and repent, then if you see our chances of going ot Heaven or Hell at any given moment throughout the day, week, month, or year as a timeline pointing up or down, it would mean that we may be saved right now, but maybe we take an extra 20 minutes on lunch from work today...until we repent, we are going to Hell (according to those who do not believe OSAS).

I don't believe extra time on lunch is a sin but I also don't believe sin can exist in eternity and neither can those who have unrepented sins else what importance is repentance at all?


Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

So many people confuse OSAS with a license to sin. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

But does it not teach that once saved, they are guaranteed salvation no matter if they sin or not?

[jay7]

Jay, I need that avatar of yours for some stray trees behind my property.

lol

[water]

Jay, let me ask you this.

Are you saved right now, today?

If so, will you be saved tomorrow?

What about a year from now?

[jay7]

It seems to me if that were the case then his death on the Cross wasn't quite sufficient to pay for us.

The cross was about a sin offering. It is sufficient for all kinds of sins but the unforgivable one. What the cross isn't about is a payment for sins not repented of. The cross allows us to repent and be forgiven of our sins, but if we do not repent then the power of the cross and the sacrifice is not put to use.


1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[jay7]

Are you saved right now, today?

If so, will you be saved tomorrow?

What about a year from now?

No, no one is saved immediately or for prolonged periods of time. To be saved is to be saved from destruction at the end. It has no bearing on our current condition. It is a common usage to define salvation as something you receive right when you accept Christ....the whole "I'm saved right now" thing but its not scriptural. When one accepts Christ they are a new creature spiritually and they are on the path to being saved but they are not saved until they are actually saved from damnation on judgement day. Now, the word saved has many meanings and there is a being saved now but its not the same as being saved as in having salvation. Very few have salvation prior to judgement day. The rest may be heading towards salvationa and are "saved" in that context but it is not official until the judgement is given.

[water]

Are you saved right now, today?

If so, will you be saved tomorrow?

What about a year from now?

No, no one is saved immediately or for prolonged periods of time. To be saved is to be saved from destruction at the end. It has no bearing on our current condition. It is a common usage to define salvation as something you receive right when you accept Christ....the whole "I'm saved right now" thing but its not scriptural. When one accepts Christ they are a new creature spiritually and they are on the path to being saved but they are not saved until they are actually saved from damnation on judgement day. Now, the word saved has many meanings and there is a being saved now but its not the same as being saved as in having salvation. Very few have salvation prior to judgement day. The rest may be heading towards salvationa and are "saved" in that context but it is not official until the judgement is given.

So if you die right now, are you going to Heaven or Hell?

[jay7]

All go to heaven when they die. In heaven there is a gulf. People go to one of either side and await judgement day. On that day people are sent to the lake of fire (often called Hell).

I repent often and I see no scripture that says there is no way to repent even after death so where I go when I die is up to the Lord and until then and perhaps after then I shall continue to repent of my sins and try my best to not sin.

[water]

All go to heaven when they die. In heaven there is a gulf. People go to one of either side and await judgement day. On that day people are sent to the lake of fire (often called Hell).

I repent often and I see no scripture that says there is no way to repent even after death so where I go when I die is up to the Lord and until then and perhaps after then I shall continue to repent of my sins and try my best to not sin.

So really, what you are saying because you continue to sin on occasion (we all do), is that your fate is entirely in God's hands.

If he calls you on a bad day, you are destined for fire.

If he calls you on a good day, you are desinted for eternal life.

Now the Bible tells us the Lord knows how many days he has given us and he can also see in the future as if flipping through a book.

So if the Lord knows the future and he also knows how many days you have, then the Lord knows your eternal destiny.

Nobody would argue with that last point; however, if your salvation is completely dependent upon YOUR ability to live a sin free life, regardless of when you came to Christ, then what you are saying is that there is no guarantee of eternal life.

If what you say is true, that your eternal destination is based on whether or not there is any unrepentant sin in your life upon your last moment on this planet, then what you are really saying is that salvation is completely in God's hands and has nothing to do with whether you accepted Christ and lived for him for years and years.

If you lived a perfect and sin-free life for 25 years after coming to Christ, but 3 seconds ago you committed adultry in your heart by looking lustfully at a woman as you crossed a busy street, followed immediately by a city bus crushing you to death, you are going to Hell?

Now we know that nobody lives 25 years without a sin, save for Jesus. I think it would be a miracle to find any person in all of history that lived one full year without sin, save for Jesus. It might be just as difficult to find a person that went a month without some sort of sin.

And regarding that comment I made about taking extra time for lunch being a sin, I guarantee you that if my boss is paying me to be here 8 hours a day and I am here 7.8, I just stole .2 hours of pay and am a thief.

Remeber, God's standard is Jesus and that is a perfect, sin-free life, 100%. It does not matter if the sin is big or small, sin is sin and God can not allow sin into Heaven.

We can't earn our salvation. Yes, we must make a decision to let Christ rule our lives, but after that point, our eternal destination does not flip flop a thousand times a month depending upon our ability or inability to resist temptation.

None of us *deserves* salvation. I do not deserve salvation during the next hour even if I commit no sins during that hour.

I am only saved by the grace of God, through the blood Jesus shed on the cross.

[jay7]

So really, what you are saying because you continue to sin on occasion (we all do), is that your fate is entirely in God's hands.

One can be active in their fate as far as choosing to sin or choosing to try not to, and when there is sin to repent to repent or to choose not to repent. The rest is in God's hands I believe.

If he calls you on a bad day, you are destined for fire.

If he calls you on a good day, you are desinted for eternal life.

Not exactly.

Nobody would argue with that last point; however, if your salvation is completely dependent upon YOUR ability to live a sin free life, regardless of when you came to Christ, then what you are saying is that there is no guarantee of eternal life.

Sin affects eternal life but there is a guarantee that there is such a thing and we have to do as we are instructed to have access to that. We are to believe in Christ, and repent of our sins that he died for. I believe if we died instantly after sinning that God would provide an opportunity to repent since death is nothing but a transition of living from one dimension to another.

If you lived a perfect and sin-free life for 25 years after coming to Christ, but 3 seconds ago you committed adultry in your heart by looking lustfully at a woman as you crossed a busy street, followed immediately by a city bus crushing you to death, you are going to Hell?

Like Is aid, no one "goes to Hell" as in final damnation when they die. God is not unfair and certainly wouldn't **** someone as you describe above because they died before they had the chance to repent as they demonstarted they would have in their human life.

And regarding that comment I made about taking extra time for lunch being a sin, I guarantee you that if my boss is paying me to be here 8 hours a day and I am here 7.8, I just stole .2 hours of pay and am a thief.

By the harshest and strictest definition perhaps but I do not believe that is a sin in God's eyes, nor thievry anymore than your boss is a thief should you happen to work .2 over the 8 hours.

Remeber, God's standard is Jesus and that is a perfect, sin-free life, 100%. It does not matter if the sin is big or small, sin is sin and God can not allow sin into Heaven.

Not all sins are equal actually. There are sins not equal to death as well as sins that require a greater damnation.


1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.



Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.




Also, sin is allowed in Heaven as Satan himself, the greatest sinner of all time lived in heaven a long time before he was to be cast out in Rev 12:9. Sin however shall not exist in the eternity if that's what you meant. But not all sins are the same.

We can't earn our salvation. Yes, we must make a decision to let Christ rule our lives, but after that point, our eternal destination does not flip flop a thousand times a month depending upon our ability or inability to resist temptation.

Actually it can "flip flop" although I don't care for that language:


Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.



One can be broken off for unbelief, and graffed back in if they believe. There is no limit set for how many times this can happen in fact:


Matthew 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

If we are to forgive each other so many times a day, how the much more would our Father God forgive us a day? We can be blotted out of the book, and we can be added in. Luckily God writes in pencil and has an eraser. (not because of his errors but ours)

None of us *deserves* salvation. I do not deserve salvation during the next hour even if I commit no sins during that hour.

I am only saved by the grace of God, through the blood Jesus shed on the cross.

Agreed.

[AndCanItBe]

Question: Is your sin more powerful than Christ's death on the Cross? It would have to be wouldn't it, if each time you sin God no longer sees Christ's righteousness covering you, but instead sees your own? Your sin in effect has the power to negate the power of the Cross, then?

Why did Christ die on the Cross at all if we can lose our salvation from one minute to the next? It would be entirely pointless wouldn't it, since it all depends on whether we obey or not. If we earn our way there by our own obedience, then why did we need a sacrifice that had been perfectly spotless and committed no sin. Why couldn't any man die for us?

I don't mean to pick on you or anything but I think these are important questions. I used to think something similar to what you think jay7. It was certainly a terrible, fearful, existence with no assurance and filled with huge burdens.

Jerry Bridges describes earning your salvation in this way. If you are standing on one side of a cliff and Jesus on the other, what happens if you can step out in obedience a 1/4 of the way? 1/2 the way, 3/4 of the way? What happens is you fall to your death. Jesus has to build the bridge all the way across to you first, he does that with salvation, so that you can then take the first steps in obedience toward him without falling to your death.

[water]

It is so hard to let go of the law, isn't it? We grow up (most of us anyway that did not grow up in Bible believing homes) thinking that every reward is earned. We are conditioned by imperfect parents who love us one day and are angry with us the next, all dependent upon how we behave.

But our ways are not God's ways. He loves us unconditionally. Yes, he hates sin and will not allow sin into his presence, but he loves us and wants us to be free from sin.

He sent his only Son Jesus so we can be clean in his presense.

To illustrate how conditioned we are in our ways, read Galations 2. Here Paul has to correct Peter of all people...an apostle that actually lived and walked with Jesus in the flesh.

Galations 2

16And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ--and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law."[d]

17But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. 19For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. 20I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

We can see here that when we sin for the first time, we have earned eternal separation from God. It only takes one sin and we are so tainted compared to our perfect and holy God that we are not capable of being in his presense.

If it takes one sin to eternally separate us from God, because he is perfect and holy, but also endless and infinite, then it takes a perfect, holy, infinite, and endless sacrifice to make us right with God.

Jesus is this infinite and perfect sacrifice.

We need to understand that if the animal sacrifices could absolve us of sin, then Jesus did not need to come die for us.

Since it requires the perfect and infinite blood to make us right with a perfect and infinite God, nothing we can ever do will cleanse us of sin.

It is only by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior that we are made right with God, only through faith in Jesus.

Our works do not save us. Our good deeds do not save us. If all it took was a prayer of repentance after each sin, then Jesus could have stayed in Heaven.

Once you give your life to the Lord you are made right with God. You are not immediately perfect, but the Lord promised he would finish what he started.

Notice that...HE would finish what HE started. Our act of faith in coming to Jesus is like what Abraham did with his son Isaac. God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, he just allowed Abraham to show he had faith and would do what God said. It is the same for us as we come to God through Jesus. It is our faith in what Jesus did for us that makes us right with God, not our degree of success or failure with respect to not yielding to temptation.

[jay7]

and,

Question: Is your sin more powerful than Christ's death on the Cross? It would have to be wouldn't it, if each time you sin God no longer sees Christ's righteousness covering you, but instead sees your own? Your sin in effect has the power to negate the power of the Cross, then?

The cross can have no affect on any sin that is not repented of. That's what the cross is for. A perfect sacrifice that never needs renewed...all we need to do is repent. The cross cannot and does not cleanse our sins if we do not come to it and repent.

Why did Christ die on the Cross at all if we can lose our salvation from one minute to the next?

Lets define what the death of the cross achieved because I think there is an incorrect definition going around.

It would be entirely pointless wouldn't it, since it all depends on whether we obey or not.

There still had to be a perfect sacrifice according to the law. After that, we must believe and obey, meaning believe in Christ and repent of our sins to be forgiven.

I don't mean to pick on you or anything but I think these are important questions. I used to think something similar to what you think jay7. It was certainly a terrible, fearful, existence with no assurance and filled with huge burdens.

Not a problem...I know I have a lot of positions that some don't agree with but I have no problem with talking about them or agreeing to disagree.

I am not fearful or under any terrible thing. We do have a responsibility to repent for forgiveness of our sins and this is important for us to do or else the cross and Christ's sinless life was for no reason. We MUST seek forgiveness and be cleansed for the sake our our souls and eternal life.


Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Jerry Bridges describes earning your salvation in this way. If you are standing on one side of a cliff and Jesus on the other, what happens if you can step out in obedience a 1/4 of the way? 1/2 the way, 3/4 of the way? What happens is you fall to your death. Jesus has to build the bridge all the way across to you first, he does that with salvation, so that you can then take the first steps in obedience toward him without falling to your death.

Its really more that Christ has built a bridge TO salvation and has crossed to that other side and is waiting for us to follow him and we have to cross that bridge, always repenting along the way lest we take a bad step and fall off and not obtain it. We are not saved in the first steps, but in the last. We are headed in the RIGHT direction in the first steps, but not at the destination yet.

[AndCanItBe]

I think my post may have been ill-timed. I hope it did not distract you from water's post. He has laid out what I believe to be the truth very well. I hope you will consider doing some serious thinking on the things in his post. I'm glad to know I didn't offend you with my questions. I hope you will read his post prayerfully before agreeing to disagree. Thanks jay7!

[jay7]

If it takes one sin to eternally separate us from God, because he is perfect and holy, but also endless and infinite, then it takes a perfect, holy, infinite, and endless sacrifice to make us right with God.

Its true that one sin can separate us from God but the one sacrifice does not cleanse our sins nor does it make any of us "right with God" It opened the way to being cleansed by symbolically washing ourselves in His blood through repentance. Without repentance there is no salvation, no forgiveness of sin.

We need to understand that if the animal sacrifices could absolve us of sin, then Jesus did not need to come die for us.

Animal sacrifices did remove sins. That was the entire point of it. Its just that it wasn't neary as good as a single overall sacrifice. It also was done once a year while repenting now can be done daily.


Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

[water]

If animal sacrifices were sufficient, then why did Jesus come?

[jay7]

Leviticus 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Once a year wasn't sufficient. That's how often the sin offering was made for the population. Therefore the old covenant wasn't good enough and a new, better one came through Christ, the lamb slain. (still an "animal sacrifice" but this time it was God's Son who was literally perfect)


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

There was also some form of a daily sin atonement but that still falls far short of being able to repent 7x70 or more times as we can under the new cov. There naturally were other reasons why the first cov. was flawed but sins were definitely atoned for under the old cov. Man just needed something better because he is quite a sinner.

[water]

The version of salvation you speak of is predestination.

The reason I say this is because according to what you are saying, our eternal destination varies from minute to minute depending on OUR WORK of saying a prayer of repentance for every single sin we commit.

Now since 1) the Lord knows the moment we die and 2) scripture says that following death is judgement and 3) the Lord knows the future, thereby knowing whether or not we are "IN OR OUT" at the moment of our death, then there is no room for our choice in the matter.

If God knows when we will die and what state we will be in at that moment AND he disregards all prior choices/decisions/committments, then God is choosing our eternal destination.

This simply can't be how it works because what would be the purpose of faith?

If God chooses our eternal destination, then why send Jesus? Why would God tell us that those who believe would inherit eternal life?

God says that those who believe will not be put to shame, that those who believe will inherit eternal life.

So if I believe today, yet stumble through some sin tomorrow and die before I have a chance to repent, knowing that judgement follows death (read the story abou Lazarus if you are not clear on this point), I MUST inherit eternal life or else God is a liar. Since we know God is not a liar, we know that our salvation does not vary from moment to moment.

We know that God is not a liar, so we know that he will finish the work he began in us.

Yes, we need to pray, confess, repent, but our holiness is not a product of anything we say or do, it is imparted solely by the blood of the Lamb and we receive it when we repent and believe. Once the blood has made us clean, we are clean.

How could Jesus have taken all of our sins upon him at the cross if we did not repent of them before we were born?

Jesus did take our sins to the grave with him on the cross and we receive his covering when we believe.

I understand where you are right now. There is a point in a person's walk with Christ that the Lord imparts his wisdom about grace. Until the Lord imparts that wisdom, understanding his gift of salvation can be difficult if not impossible. I am not saying these things to argue with you, only to say that God loves you more than you understand right now.

He did not place you in a spiritual minefield, he placed you in a green pasture and he is your shepard. Would he lead you to Hell? Of course not. Trust him.

[jay7]

The version of salvation you speak of is predestination.

The reason I say this is because according to what you are saying, our eternal destination varies from minute to minute depending on OUR WORK of saying a prayer of repentance for every single sin we commit.

Call it work if you want. It's a requirement just as believing upon Christ. That is not predestination however.

Now since 1) the Lord knows the moment we die and 2) scripture says that following death is judgement and 3) the Lord knows the future, thereby knowing whether or not we are "IN OR OUT" at the moment of our death, then there is no room for our choice in the matter.

You forgot the choice part...choosing to believe in Christ, choosing to repent...BTW judgement is not immediately when we die...judgement happens at one time for all souls after the Millennium.

If God knows when we will die and what state we will be in at that moment AND he disregards all prior choices/decisions/committments, then God is choosing our eternal destination.

This simply can't be how it works because what would be the purpose of faith?

If God chooses our eternal destination, then why send Jesus? Why would God tell us that those who believe would inherit eternal life?

We do have choice and our destinations are not choosen by God.

God says that those who believe will not be put to shame, that those who believe will inherit eternal life.

It also says that sin cannot exist in the eternity and that to be cleansed one must repent.

So if I believe today, yet stumble through some sin tomorrow and die before I have a chance to repent, knowing that judgement follows death (read the story abou Lazarus if you are not clear on this point), I MUST inherit eternal life or else God is a liar. Since we know God is not a liar, we know that our salvation does not vary from moment to moment.

That story does not show final judgement. It only shows that the bad go to a different part of heaven before judgement day takes place, and yes, its not pleasant.

How could Jesus have taken all of our sins upon him at the cross if we did not repent of them before we were born?

He didn't. He is able to cover our sins if we repent. If you actually believe Christ instantly took all future and past sins of everyone then you are a believer in universal salvation. This also negates the need for repentance but we are instructed to repent to have sins forgiven so repenting is required and important.

I understand where you are right now. There is a point in a person's walk with Christ that the Lord imparts his wisdom about grace. Until the Lord imparts that wisdom, understanding his gift of salvation can be difficult if not impossible. I am not saying these things to argue with you, only to say that God loves you more than you understand right now.

And I say the same in return to you. I know exactly why and how you believe as you do but hang in there and seek/pray for wisdom and ye shall find :)

He did not place you in a spiritual minefield, he placed you in a green pasture and he is your shepard.

I disagree. Man was cast out of the "green pasture"
and very much is in a spiritual minefield, a wicked world of sin and temptation and this weak flesh body is sinful. He is in that green pasture and we need to head towards Him, washing our feet constantly.