Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
mizbayakh wrote:My friend believes that you CANNOT believe in free will without it pointing to the fact (in her mind) that you are not depending and trusting alone in the work of Jesus at the cross. She believes it is adding to the Gospel and comes from pride in keeping oneself.
So...since she won't budge in understanding it any other way...then it is heresy to her.
I understand her point even if I don't agree with her about it.
mizbayakh wrote:oh man...don't get me going Water!!! lol Just this weekend at a church I visited, the pastor was using the NIV and had my KJV...they said different things - one of them has to be right and one wrong.
mizbayakh wrote:Let's not go there...whole other topic!! They usually get locked anyway.
mizbayakh wrote:I agree with you Water
(you do love me... )
mizbayakh wrote:No, seriously - since you wrote what you wrote above I guess we couldn't classify you as a Calvinist:
5 Points of Calvinism
So back to the topic, I personally don't believe in OSAS. I believe in freewill although not 100 percent as God intervenes in peoples lives when He wants to. I don't believe all will be saved even though God would like that to happen. I'm sure there are names for the positions I hold but I don't know them offhand. That's my two cents plus to the thread lol
I wanted to ask a question jay7 and mizbyakh. Based on the statement above and your agreement mizbyakh, do you think that those of us who do agree with OSAS think EVERYONE will be saved? I'm asking because the above statement seemed to imply that to me, but I wanted clarification. I also ask because if either of you do equate OSAS with a belief that in the end we will all be saved, that is a misconception, and I wanted to clear it up. OSAS simply means you can not lose your salvation once you have it. Not everyone will have salvation. You can't lose what you never had to start with. I just wanted to make sure that was clear.
All of those who do not think OSAS is true need to answer these questions: Can the Lord be trusted? If he can be trusted, can we trust all of his promises? If so, then what part of his promise to finish the work he began in us allows for us to be saved yet be destined for Hell?
Read that again: salvation is not something we can earn.
If we can't earn it the first time, how can we lose it or gain it again?
Do you doubt that any of his promises regarding Israel will be fulfilled? If not, why would you doubt his promise to finish the work he began in you?
Jesus is the once-and-for-all sacrifice. He is an eternal God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we need to scramble back to the Lord to renew our salavation, as if it expires or is made null when we slip and fall.
Consider this: if we lose our salvation with every sin, only to gain it back again when we confess and repent, then if you see our chances of going ot Heaven or Hell at any given moment throughout the day, week, month, or year as a timeline pointing up or down, it would mean that we may be saved right now, but maybe we take an extra 20 minutes on lunch from work today...until we repent, we are going to Hell (according to those who do not believe OSAS).
So many people confuse OSAS with a license to sin. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Jay, I need that avatar of yours for some stray trees behind my property.
It seems to me if that were the case then his death on the Cross wasn't quite sufficient to pay for us.
Are you saved right now, today?
If so, will you be saved tomorrow?
What about a year from now?
jay7 wrote:Are you saved right now, today?
If so, will you be saved tomorrow?
What about a year from now?
No, no one is saved immediately or for prolonged periods of time. To be saved is to be saved from destruction at the end. It has no bearing on our current condition. It is a common usage to define salvation as something you receive right when you accept Christ....the whole "I'm saved right now" thing but its not scriptural. When one accepts Christ they are a new creature spiritually and they are on the path to being saved but they are not saved until they are actually saved from damnation on judgement day. Now, the word saved has many meanings and there is a being saved now but its not the same as being saved as in having salvation. Very few have salvation prior to judgement day. The rest may be heading towards salvationa and are "saved" in that context but it is not official until the judgement is given.
jay7 wrote:All go to heaven when they die. In heaven there is a gulf. People go to one of either side and await judgement day. On that day people are sent to the lake of fire (often called Hell).
I repent often and I see no scripture that says there is no way to repent even after death so where I go when I die is up to the Lord and until then and perhaps after then I shall continue to repent of my sins and try my best to not sin.
So really, what you are saying because you continue to sin on occasion (we all do), is that your fate is entirely in God's hands.
If he calls you on a bad day, you are destined for fire.
If he calls you on a good day, you are desinted for eternal life.
Nobody would argue with that last point; however, if your salvation is completely dependent upon YOUR ability to live a sin free life, regardless of when you came to Christ, then what you are saying is that there is no guarantee of eternal life.
If you lived a perfect and sin-free life for 25 years after coming to Christ, but 3 seconds ago you committed adultry in your heart by looking lustfully at a woman as you crossed a busy street, followed immediately by a city bus crushing you to death, you are going to Hell?
And regarding that comment I made about taking extra time for lunch being a sin, I guarantee you that if my boss is paying me to be here 8 hours a day and I am here 7.8, I just stole .2 hours of pay and am a thief.
Remeber, God's standard is Jesus and that is a perfect, sin-free life, 100%. It does not matter if the sin is big or small, sin is sin and God can not allow sin into Heaven.
We can't earn our salvation. Yes, we must make a decision to let Christ rule our lives, but after that point, our eternal destination does not flip flop a thousand times a month depending upon our ability or inability to resist temptation.
None of us *deserves* salvation. I do not deserve salvation during the next hour even if I commit no sins during that hour.
I am only saved by the grace of God, through the blood Jesus shed on the cross.
16And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ--and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law."[d]
17But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. 19For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. 20I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.
Question: Is your sin more powerful than Christ's death on the Cross? It would have to be wouldn't it, if each time you sin God no longer sees Christ's righteousness covering you, but instead sees your own? Your sin in effect has the power to negate the power of the Cross, then?
Why did Christ die on the Cross at all if we can lose our salvation from one minute to the next?
It would be entirely pointless wouldn't it, since it all depends on whether we obey or not.
I don't mean to pick on you or anything but I think these are important questions. I used to think something similar to what you think jay7. It was certainly a terrible, fearful, existence with no assurance and filled with huge burdens.
Jerry Bridges describes earning your salvation in this way. If you are standing on one side of a cliff and Jesus on the other, what happens if you can step out in obedience a 1/4 of the way? 1/2 the way, 3/4 of the way? What happens is you fall to your death. Jesus has to build the bridge all the way across to you first, he does that with salvation, so that you can then take the first steps in obedience toward him without falling to your death.
If it takes one sin to eternally separate us from God, because he is perfect and holy, but also endless and infinite, then it takes a perfect, holy, infinite, and endless sacrifice to make us right with God.
We need to understand that if the animal sacrifices could absolve us of sin, then Jesus did not need to come die for us.
The version of salvation you speak of is predestination.
The reason I say this is because according to what you are saying, our eternal destination varies from minute to minute depending on OUR WORK of saying a prayer of repentance for every single sin we commit.
Now since 1) the Lord knows the moment we die and 2) scripture says that following death is judgement and 3) the Lord knows the future, thereby knowing whether or not we are "IN OR OUT" at the moment of our death, then there is no room for our choice in the matter.
If God knows when we will die and what state we will be in at that moment AND he disregards all prior choices/decisions/committments, then God is choosing our eternal destination.
This simply can't be how it works because what would be the purpose of faith?
If God chooses our eternal destination, then why send Jesus? Why would God tell us that those who believe would inherit eternal life?
God says that those who believe will not be put to shame, that those who believe will inherit eternal life.
So if I believe today, yet stumble through some sin tomorrow and die before I have a chance to repent, knowing that judgement follows death (read the story abou Lazarus if you are not clear on this point), I MUST inherit eternal life or else God is a liar. Since we know God is not a liar, we know that our salvation does not vary from moment to moment.
How could Jesus have taken all of our sins upon him at the cross if we did not repent of them before we were born?
I understand where you are right now. There is a point in a person's walk with Christ that the Lord imparts his wisdom about grace. Until the Lord imparts that wisdom, understanding his gift of salvation can be difficult if not impossible. I am not saying these things to argue with you, only to say that God loves you more than you understand right now.
He did not place you in a spiritual minefield, he placed you in a green pasture and he is your shepard.
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