WHAT HERB THINKS (08/07/06)

[BeTheMoon]

That Time Has Come

If you visit FP's discussion board you are familiar with avatars and signatures. Avatars are small images posters insert below their username to represent them. Signatures are created to appear below each of their posts and usually contain a passage of Scripture important to the poster.

My avatar is the freedom loving tank man -- the brave young man who stood before a column of tanks after Chinese troops violently cleared thousands of his fellow demonstrators from Tiananmen Square. My signature asks for support for FP and includes a passage of Scripture important to me -- where the Apostle Paul gives final instructions to young Timothy. Paul says:

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths (2 Timothy 4:1-4).

Why did I pick the tank man for my avatar and Paul's instructions to Timothy for my signature? My original reason for the tank man image is because it accurately expresses the way I feel about my ministry. From the start, FP has been standing almost completely alone trying to get this information into the hands of God's people. The passage of Scripture from 2 Timothy came later as I pondered the reasons why the information I had was so slow to be received.

Yet, as I look at my avatar and signature, I realize there may be more being said. You see, the love of freedom and the love of truth are intimately related. When a people lose their love of freedom, they soon will lose their freedom. Likewise, when a people lose their love for truth, truth will be lost also. And, of the two of these treasures, the latter is the worst to lose. That's because, according to Jesus, it's the truth that makes us free (John 8:31-32).

You see, our real enemy is spiritual (Ephesians 6:12). Should we ever forget that we will be fighting the wrong war and destined to fail. People who say they love freedom and yet demonstrate a disregard for accuracy and truth are deceiving themselves. As God's people on earth, our first concern should be truth. Unfortunately, this appears no longer to be the case.

I would rather see a person who I may disagree with but demonstrates a love for the truth, than a person who I may agree with but is careless with truth. Friends, we're not careless with the things we love. That's why Paul places so much importance on our speaking truth to each another. Without a sincere love for each other and truth, we will never grow up to the stature of Christ as Paul instructs (Ephesians 4:15).

Until I began posting on Internet discussion boards, I never realized the degree of the problem among so many of today's Christians. And if I should attempt to point out this situation because of some careless or inaccurate post, the response is usually angry and totally missing my point.

The Bible tells us Christ's love has been shed abroad into the hearts of men. This being the case, where has it gone? I'll tell you where it has gone. Jesus told us, in the end-time, the love of many would grow cold (Matthew 24:12). And, Paul told Timothy that the time would come when God's people would not endure sound doctrine. Instead of truth, they would pursue something they love more -- their own desires.

I fear that time has come.

[4givenmuch]

Herb,

Thank you for your admonition! I was feeling uneasy as I read a few of the threads this morning. It was grievous actually.

The thing that should make us stand out from the world is our love and even that is by His grace.We must go out of our way to exercise grace with all, because He has with us.

We live in a unique time in history to be sure, but nothing should come between us and our relationship with our God. I just want to encourage everyone, do your daily devo before logging on. Let's walk in the Spirit as a family, we are going to need each other!

PS I have a big sign on my refrigerator to remind us "Love one another, Please!"

[b]4givenmuch[/b]

[i]"I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which your were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."[/i] Eph 4:1-3

[ruotsher]

Interestingly, I have been seeing this dissention increasingly more and more often – more particularly on other message boards. It can be heart breaking and stressful to say the least. Myself, I have spent nights in tears because of expressed anger and hostility, when I was only trying to show what the Holy Spirit had shown me.

I have wondered many many times……….how can all these people, who claim to love the Lord, be SO hateful to each other, because they interpret scripture differently? Is EVERBODY wrong? Is everybody partly right and partly wrong?

I came across an interesting blurb today in my reading, and I’ll post it here:

“The prophets tell us that in the future the … Messiah will come and teach us by the wisdom of YHWH’s spirit (Isa 11:2-3) and the High Priest will stand with the Urim and Tumim and answer all our difficult questions (Ezra 2:63; 2 Chr. 15:3). When that happens everyone will know the true mean of YHWH’s word. Until then we can only do our best with the tools we have to strive for His truth. It is inevitable that today different people will arrive at different understandings. Only one opinion can be right, but until the anointed King and anointed High priest come in the end times we will knot know for sure. Until that time we must not let our differences divide us! I believe that those who desire to follow YHWH’s Word should not be divided by their differences in understanding His word. Unity can and must be achieved even when there is not uniformity. This requires a certain degree of spiritual maturity and humility. It is only human that we get frustrated when others do not see things our way. But we must be humble before YHWH and ask Him to lead us on our walk with Him. If our fellow believers approach YHWH with the same humility then it is not for us to judge them. What unites us is our love of YHWH and our desire to live by His Word. This does not mean that we do no have heated and fierce debates and discussions. This is an important part of trying to peel away layers if tradition and deception to arrive at the plain meaning of YHWH’s Word.

[missann]

I do not think anyone is or was being hateful. Just trying to make a point that no one wanted to recognize.

And, Paul told Timothy that the time would come when God's people would not endure sound doctrine. Instead of truth, they would pursue something they love more -- their own desires.

I fear that time has come.

No it hasn't, not in this case. Truth is, no one knows the truth of who the beast or AC will be. So how can we be "not enduring sound doctrine", when we...just...do...not...know. It is all theories.

I don't believe you were right to post this commentary in regards to the threads.

If you were posting it for general purposes, then fine. But I can't believe this was a coincedence that you posted it after being challenged. There are many people who do not buy into the RRE theory, does not mean they are tickling their ears, or ignoring any truths.

[AndCanItBe]

On this board there are people with a lot of differing opinions and theories. As another poster said, a lot of Christians arrive at different understandings of the same passages, while earnestly seeking the truth of scripture. It is good and profitable that we discuss and debate these things. "Iron sharpens iron" after all. It becomes a problem when things are not discussed in love, when attitudes show only a desire to be right and not a desire to help another man in his walk with God, when the words chosen show only anger and resentment and pride, and personally attack. No one has to agree on everything or "buy" every theory, but we do need disagree with an attitude of love instead of pride.

[mabell28]

Herb,

Be encouraged, and welcome to war. Good words.

Michael

[WhiteH2OWoman]

Actually, I appreciated Herb's post, having recently been verbally "spanked" on another prophecy board by a mod who will go unnamed. I am taking the high road of not saying anything further about it, but I have seen people kick and scream.

10 years ago, I was on a runner's board called the "Dead Runner's Society." Their solution to bickering was called the "30% nicer rule." They called on their members to be 30% nicer online than they would be in person, since we can't see facial expressions or body language in posts.

I'm going to make the effort to be 30% nicer...at least.

[GotJesus]

God Is Love....

If we are made in his image, and we are going to walk this path that we all know is going to get much much worse.

Put on your helmet of salvation and walk in Gods Love



Got Jesus

[James]

Your bang on Herb!

Knowing what times we're living in we should all examing ourselves, and each other, to be sure we are walking in truth and firm in our practice of sound doctrine. It is our responsibility as the Church to uphold the truth concerning our faith. Satan failed when he attempted to destroy the Church, so his plan is to create confusion within it, divide and conquer.

[Abiding in His Word]

What I "hear" Herb saying is that the truth spoken in love is what's most important. He has many times in his commentaries admitted to not knowing everything about everything.....but he does report as he sees it. He accepts other's viewpoints and examines them in light of the word of God. But the tone behind the opposing view makes all the difference in the world as to how it will be received.

these verses come to mind:

Pro 15:1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Pro 15:2 The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable, But the mouth of fools spouts folly.

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.

Pro 15:4 A soothing tongue is a tree of life, But perversion in it crushes the spirit.

I for one have been guilty of harsh words and they may have stirred up anger. We should be able to speak the truth and express our differences in love.

[GotJesus]

Great reply Abiding! :)

The tongue is the worst weapon of all, it is sharper than a two edged sword and those who are praticing what is in the word, should all, including myself look and examine ourselves and watch what comes out.

There is NO time to be bickering, certianlly among ourselves. Now is the time to put the differences aside and find common ground to stand on and stand strong together.

We are going to need each others love to carry us through these times.

[WhiteH2OWoman]

What I "hear" Herb saying is that the truth spoken in love is what's most important. He has many times in his commentaries admitted to not knowing everything about everything.....but he does report as he sees it. He accepts other's viewpoints and examines them in light of the word of God. But the tone behind the opposing view makes all the difference in the world as to how it will be received.

Amen to that! Earlier today, I was remembering a very heated debate I had 30 years ago in college. The only 2 things I remember about it were the topic--on which I was wrong--and the extreme venom of the guy. Even though I was wrong, to this day I recoil from his hateful anger.

I don't remember any of his words...just his hatefulness.

[James]

There is NO time to be bickering, certianlly among ourselves. Now is the time to put the differences aside and find common ground to stand on and stand strong together.

Hey, I disagree.

I don't think we can find a common ground. The truth the Bible offers is concrete, and I don't feel there is two ways about it. Gods way or the highway. I don't think standing togeather with those who deviate from that is high on my priority list. And speaking softly to them about it is'nt high on that list either.


Jesus never tip toed around the daisys. I have a hard time figuring out why people assume Christians are supposed to be push-overs who go out of their way not to hurt somones feelings, with regardes to their doctrinal stance. I will always be willing to put the truth God has revealed to me, up against the contrary 'truth' anyone else has to offer; anyday, all in the name of truly knowing truth. At best, I'am that confident in Gods Words, and the fasion in which He has revealed their meanings to me by prayer. At worst, I will be corrected and convinced on real truth, which is a blessing in itself! The only people who are afraid of getting to the bottom of things are those who don't want to get to the bottom of them at all. Many who are'nt in truth would rather not come to terms with the fact the truth they have been living in is not truth at all, because to acknowledge that is to accept that their parents, grandparents, friends and loved ones have lied to them their entire lives (Luke 14:26)

I always have, and always will welcome anyone with a differing doctrinal stance to my table, so that we can discuss it further, and if they can take the Word of God and prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that all the scriptures support their view, I will thank them, and thank God for helping me grow and not allowing me to decieve myself.


Jesus was'nt shy, nor were the first Disciples we read about. The Bible says the spoke boldly! Even unto death! They were dragged into synagogues and temples in front of Religious authoritys, questioned, threatend, argued against and beaten yet they did'nt stop because they could'nt, they knew the truth and would'nt allow the Pharisees to ignore it. They would'nt allow the Pharisees to be comfortible in their traditional religious system that had one traditional, narrow minded view on the scriptures, they understood the times, the word, as a result of knowing God personally and His indwelling in them caused them to speak.

Acts 6:8-10 (King James Version)
9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

Stephen argued the truth to His own death, even after being slapped, and cursed at by an angry mob. He spoke with a sound doctrine from the word of God.


Imagine, had it not been for the perfect example of the King Himself, had they all for conformitys sake not stood for truth, and did what they could, not to upset the religious authority and majority of their day. What would of happend? Absolutely nothing.


So, I disagree with the last few posts. If somone speaks to me with honest words, I consider that true brotherly, or sisterly love and will never refuse sound correction. When they put on overly-kind words for the sake of my feelings, I consider that to be the love of the world and to me nothing more then a show.




James

[Abiding in His Word]

James

I don't think we can find a common ground. The truth the Bible offers is concrete, and I don't feel there is two ways about it. Gods way or the highway.

Of course, the truth of the Bible is concrete. I doubt you'll find anyone who will disagree with you on that statement. However, the truth being discussed at any given time may "appear" to be different depending on one's maturity in the Lord, background, ethnic origin, and perception (which may need correcting).

That's why patience and love are required even in debate issues else we sound like clanging cymbals.

[James]

Here is an example of how the Holy Spirit lead Stephen to handle the Religious authoritys who argued the things of God with him.


Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

He said it like it was.

Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

One could say Stephen judged them, I believe he just stated the obvious.

When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

There are many more examples in Acts, and the Gospels.

Take Jesus for example,

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Of course, the truth of the Bible is concrete. I doubt you'll find anyone who will disagree with you on that statement. However, the truth being discussed at any given time may "appear" to be different depending on one's maturity in the Lord, background, ethnic origin, and perception (which may need correcting).

Things may appear different, as they did to these money changers. It did'nt change the way things are to God. How is it those with an obscured perception towards God will ever reconize Him if they base their knowledge of Him on what the world teaches them, while those who know Him stand by saying nothing for the sake of not arguing?

That's why patience and love are required even in debate issues else we sound like clanging cymbals.

In Correction, you find love, in Honesty, and in Truth also. When somone truly loves you, you find yourself not liking what it is they have to say; that is until you have grown and understand where they were comming from. When all they ever have is the news you want to hear, I assure you that is not true love. When Jesus flipped the tables in the temple, he did this out of love. When Stephen told those Pharisees exactly what they were, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears", He did so out of love.

There is a modern view that we inherited from our institutionalized Church which teaches Christians should be push-overs who bend over backwards, and keep speaking softly. That's not what the Bible says.

I will be more specific as to where I believe there is no common ground, it's between Gods words, and the institutionalised church's deviations from them.

Those who knew Christ never did stop standing for truth, regardless of who's feelings they hurt. Don't take my word for it, read the Bible.[/quote]

[AndCanItBe]

With all due respect James, I do take God's Word for it, and all of the examples you sited were how to deal with UNBELIEVERS saying false doctrine, not your brother in Christ. The Bible tells us to deal with our brothers/sisters differently. They are to be treated kindly, with love, and thinking of the other person's walk with God. When we argue about doctrine in an unkind way with a fellow believer, we look no different than the rest of the world. It's just exactly what they would do. If unbelievers are lurking on this site and they see us disagree and discuss issues while remaining kind and loving they will see our Lord shining through us. The Bibles says they will know we are Christians by our LOVE. We aren't talking about the world's fake love, but the genuine love Christ offers, that is radical, that shows how different people from all walks of life can come together as one and make it work because the Spirit shows us how to behave differently. When they see that, they wonder why we're different. Correct doctrine is important, but so is the love of the Living God shining through us in all we do. Let's be radically different from this world and show them our Lord, through the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

[harpazo hope]

I didn't read the last post, but these verses came to mind while reading about not being push overs.

Phi 2:1 If there is therefore any exhortation in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any tender mercies and compassions,
Phi 2:2 make full my joy, that ye be of the same mind, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind;
Phi 2:3 doing nothing through faction or through vainglory, but in lowliness of mind each counting other better than himself;
Phi 2:4 not looking each of you to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others.
Phi 2:5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

I need to quit reading the bickering threads. It's like gossip to me, and it's wrong.

Today I was very hurt by a sister in Christ whom I love deeply. It turned to anger and bitterness. I sit here crying knowing that the only way I can be healed is to think of her as better than myself. I pray for this lowliness of mind, I want to be a servant.

Jasmin

[C-YA]

Walk in love... Yes.

But to state that "That Time Has Come" because of a few harsh posts or emails one might receive... i think that is stretching it a bit.

Most of us here know what Paul went through and endured in his ministry and yet her stated that his affliction was light.

For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory (2cor. 4:17)

All discussion boards can get that way. Heated discussions. Especially when people are passionate about what they believe.

Honestly. There are a lot of issues that are brought up here that are ONLY speculation and should not be held to so tightly.

Its one thing to defend the truth when it is attacked, but another to get our feelings hurt over our own personal beliefs, interpretations, and insights.

Yes we should walk in love toward another, but also walk unoffended as well.

I gather from the majority of posts here... that most doing the posting are either new believers are those who do not have very deep roots. those who are mature should remember that in their response to their disagreements.

[JR]

Wow, I think we are focusing on the wrong goal. It seems that truth is the ends that some are arguing for, but Christ came to earth to save man.

Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

It seems to me the goal is to win our brothers. That being said, we do not use truth as a weapon against one another, if our goal is to win our brother.

You can be right and still be wrong. If all you are interested in is being right, you might do more harm then good. If your faith produces good works (saving your brother) than you have done well. But if you lose your brother, what good is that?

Remember, Christ died for man's sin. He did not die for truth, but for each of us. The goal is to win your brother, so the means to the end does matter.

By the way, I am not pointing any fingers. I have learned that when you point your finger, you have four other fingers pointing back at you. I have been guilty of arguing to be proven right, not to win a brother. If you listen carefully, you will hear my own conviction loud and clear. I remind myself of these lessons, because I do not want to have to learn them again.

One final word, we also do not want to discourage those that are doing God's work. We want to edify them, satan will attack them in ways we do not even know. That being said, they must also be held accountable, but in love, less we do more harm then good.

Just my observation.

[Abiding in His Word]

James

Most of the scriptures you mentioned by Paul were instances where he was rebuking the Pharisees. Can't compare his tirade on them to behavior between brothers and sisters in the Lord.

[Favoritetopic]

Huh...that's funny how we all interpreted what Herb wrote so differently. I was just on a Yahoo site that talked about how God loves people despite what they do, true but God doesn't accept the behavior. when Herb was talking of 'Christian' sites, etc. that is what came to my mind. I was reading about Christians who are gay and lesbian, and how their Bible says this is not a sin.

When Herb said people would follow their own desires, I thought of the world today, especially here in America where I hear very little on the world events, but more on what the newest - latest- greatest fad or superstar is. I hear of people getting divorced for really no good reason at all, they want (or desire) their freedom and the covenant between couple and God means nothing.

What came to my mind as I read Herb's post is 'another sign fulfilled'. Along with all these other world events, people are lovers of themselves.

I think debates and disagreements are fine - it seems there are many passionate people for Christ and we get overly passionate in our personal beliefs. Even the disciples did this right? And how did Christ respond...to continue loving each other.

We can only change when the Spirit changes us from within - people who are not Spirit filled Christians can not extend the kind of love we can, nor forgiveness, etc. I think Herb was talking more about the world who says they are Christian and fallen away from 'sound doctrine' of the Bible rather than true believers...

Herb, funny how God puts us 'alone' when he sets us out for huge, life-changing projects. I believe it's Joyce Meyer who says Eagles soar alone. Are you an Eagle??? I say yes. Keep up the good work.

[C-YA]

Most of the scriptures you mentioned by Paul were instances where he was rebuking the Pharisees. Can't compare his tirade on them to behavior between brothers and sisters in the Lord.

that is the trouble with the "discussion board church". you do not really know who the "brothers and sisters in the Lord" are.

someone bringing an argument/discussion could very well be a modern day pharisee, or could be a sincere follower of Chirst seeking truth.

it is impossible to "know" someone by a few posts on a discussion board. most here would probably speak and react to things totally different in person.

there may be people here who post things that when read seem pretty insightful, but if truth were known their own lifestyle may disqualify them from being able to share the info with people that "know" them.

to say that certain scriptures can only be used toward "pharisees" one must be able to know who the pharisees are and who the true bros. and sis. are.

[jesusforever3]

I do not think anyone is or was being hateful. Just trying to make a point that no one wanted to recognize.

And, Paul told Timothy that the time would come when God's people would not endure sound doctrine. Instead of truth, they would pursue something they love more -- their own desires.

I fear that time has come.

No it hasn't, not in this case. Truth is, no one knows the truth of who the beast or AC will be. So how can we be "not enduring sound doctrine", when we...just...do...not...know. It is all theories.

I don't believe you were right to post this commentary in regards to the threads.

If you were posting it for general purposes, then fine. But I can't believe this was a coincedence that you posted it after being challenged. There are many people who do not buy into the RRE theory, does not mean they are tickling their ears, or ignoring any truths.

Thank you Missann for standing up for me when other's won't. As you all could tell from the end of the other thread, I was quickly banned for standing up for truth and telling it like I see it. I had the nerve to challenge Herb. I stood up for my Lord when I saw an error and for that I am not ashamed. Am I ashamed for some of my harsh words? Yes. Did I apologize? Yes. Was it accepted? Apparently not. So I will kick the dust off my feet as another member suggested and never post again. Herb's silence in the matter of my banning is deafening, and speaks volumes to me. I will continue to do my part in the body of Christ, it just won't be here. Maybe someday I'll see you in heaven.

[Be still]

Dissent is not discord....dissent is a difference of opinion. Without any dissent is there any discourse. Dissent does not necessarily cause schism.

[James]

If unbelievers are lurking on this site and they see us disagree and discuss issues while remaining kind and loving they will see our Lord shining through us.

Believers, or unbelievers if you read scriptures you see God being straight forward towards both. Jesus turned tables without consideration to what onlookers in the temple were thinking. Because he knew he was justified. Same with Stephen, he had no thought of how people percieved Him, when he said what He said, but He knew He spoke for God because He was speaking within the restraints of Scripture, not His words, but Gods. He never beats around the bush, or goes out of His way to come across as loving. When you speak the truth, it can be simply put one way. The only people who might be offended by truth are people who don't believe it to be true, in that case somone is wrong, and if we as the body of Christ take it amongst ourselves to decide we are'nt going to get to the bottom of these doctrinal differences using Gods word, and prayer, we are basicly accepting the fact that some of us are in the dark, and we're ok with that. That does'nt sound too brotherly, or sisterly to me, not so loving either.

[James]

Hey BeStill,

Dissent does not necessarily cause schism.

Had to get a dictionary to understand the post, but if dissent does'nt cause schism, what do you think does? Perhaps the love of money? The Word does say it is the root of all evil.

[Be still]

Had to get a dictionary to understand the post

if dissent does'nt cause schism, what do you think does?

Intractability.

[AndCanItBe]

Okay James, let me give you an example of what I'm talking about here. Two believers study the same passage. They both seek the truth in prayer, they both study their Bible, compare scripture with scripture, they both think they are letting the Holy Spirit lead them, and they arrive at the "truth". When they talk to each other, they discover they disagree. They agree about the most important things, Christ is the way, truth, and life and both have asked for forgiveness and have received the Holy Spirit. So who is right? How can one brother say to the other brother, that they are right and the other is wrong? Clearly one of them is wrong, or maybe they're both wrong, but which brother is right when he says he is the one who holds the truth of the matter? You can't know because they are fallible men, and the Holy Spirit is working through imperfect vessels until we get to heaven. So what is the Godly thing to do in that situation, insist on being the one who is right, or love your brother even though you think you're right?





Now, I could tell you what I believe to be the truth using an illustration as Jesus did (a parable) or I could just blurt out "Who are you to say you hold the corner on truth, you're just a man no better than the rest of us."

Which one are you likely to listen to? Which one says to an unbeliever that you're different from everyone else? Did I use fancy flowery false flattery to get my point across in a loving way, or did I tell you the truth and take the time to do it in a manner that would build you up and not tear you down?

We're supposed to be building each other up and not tearing each other down. Correction is involved in that but if you expect to obey God about building each other up, you need to say it in a way that doesn't tear the other person down.

[StrongInTheLord]

I do not think anyone is or was being hateful. Just trying to make a point that no one wanted to recognize.

And, Paul told Timothy that the time would come when God's people would not endure sound doctrine. Instead of truth, they would pursue something they love more -- their own desires.

I fear that time has come.

No it hasn't, not in this case. Truth is, no one knows the truth of who the beast or AC will be. So how can we be "not enduring sound doctrine", when we...just...do...not...know. It is all theories.

I don't believe you were right to post this commentary in regards to the threads.

If you were posting it for general purposes, then fine. But I can't believe this was a coincedence that you posted it after being challenged. There are many people who do not buy into the RRE theory, does not mean they are tickling their ears, or ignoring any truths.

Thank you Missann for standing up for me when other's won't. As you all could tell from the end of the other thread, I was quickly banned for standing up for truth and telling it like I see it. I had the nerve to challenge Herb. I stood up for my Lord when I saw an error and for that I am not ashamed. Am I ashamed for some of my harsh words? Yes. Did I apologize? Yes. Was it accepted? Apparently not. So I will kick the dust off my feet as another member suggested and never post again. Herb's silence in the matter of my banning is deafening, and speaks volumes to me. I will continue to do my part in the body of Christ, it just won't be here. Maybe someday I'll see you in heaven.

Look dude,

I never browbeat you, called you names, or anything like that. I answered all of your questions (I think) with the utmost respect (I was funnin' with you a bit, but not meanspirited.). And I forgive my brother or sister EVERYTIME. It does no good to not forgive, because if you don't forgive, God will not forgive you.

Herb would not and should not proclaim what this site has done for the Lord in response to attacks. That would be prideful.

But its not my site.

If from all the hits this site has received has planted a million seeds, and they sprout and bear fruit, PRAISE THE LORD.

This site has first and foremost declared that the only way to salvation is through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. PRAISE THE LORD.

People of ALL rapture stances are welcome here, unlike more than a few I could mention. PRAISE THE LORD.

There is therefore now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. THANK YOU JESUS.

This is one thread off of the whole board. Are you overreacting a little?
There is no condemnation from me, your brother in Christ.

StrongInTheLord

[StrongInTheLord]

Statement of Faith

I believe in:

1. The Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.

2. The Sinless Life of Jesus Christ.

3. The Substitionary atonement of Jesus Christ.

4. The Bodily Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus Christ.

5. The Bodily Return of Jesus Christ.

6. The Resurrection of the Dead.

7. The teaching of Salvation by Grace through Faith.

8. The Deity of Jesus Christ.

9. The Trinity - The tri-equality, tri-essental (of the same essence), and
the tri-eternality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

10. The full authority of the Holy Scripture in all matters of Faith and
practice. Generally, Verbal plenary confluent inspiration of the original
autographs (Original copies of Scripture).

Herb
_________________

This is from the sites statement of faith thread. And I hope that all 165 views were from unbelievers who found this site searching for truth about Christ and Christian doctrine.

[Be still]

Strong in the Lord.

[heavenlycreation]

[AndCanItBe]

[CoffeeCat]

Herb, You ROCK!

[nonymouse]

There is also a section at the top, right of Herb's main webpage entitled "Are You Ready?" that presents the gospel message.

Blessings,

[perigrini]

As an outsider (which I now consider myself here) it is interesting to read the responses and their type.

I come here every few days to read up on Herb's thoughts and when I read this OP I knew I had to see what was being said...few surprises here...sadly.

So those who believe others are not LOVING enough see Herb's commentary as supporting their view...

And those who see others as not valuing TRUTH enough see Herb's commentary as supporting their view.

And then there are a few that believe it is targeted at them personally...not being up to speed on all the threads anylonger I suppose those people might be both unloving AND not caring about truth given their taking offense. (just guessing, so don't get all fried).

Well Herb, I agree, and I can say that without even throwing myself into one of the two primary camps involved...although, truth be told, I left this board because I was in the "truth is important" camp and got tired of being accused of being unloving enough.

Reality is probably, as typical, somewhere between the two extremes....

That is to say, there is a group who in seeking to promote truth ends up doing so in a gruff and a less than perfectly loving fashion.

AND there is a group who views anything said to them that approaches convicting as unloving.

I suspect the true (God's view) position is that there are many who end up trying to be faithful to truth and do so in a less than loving fashion...

AND there are those who simply aren't mature enough in God's word to take correction as anything other than a personal attack.

So we end up with 2 camps...one accusing the other of being unloving while being themselves accused of shutting their eyes to the truth.

Both positions or neither might be accurate. My experience in life is that it tends to be someplace in the middle.

So I can advise...please try to be more gentle in your presentation of truth to one side...and please shed the pride that holds back your growth to the other side.

(I say this knowing that it's likely both sides will now target me as both unloving AND untruthful...such is life).

Personally I suggest we remove the focus from ourselves and place it upon Jesus.

In Christ,

perigrini

[AndCanItBe]

Well said perigrini! THAT was speaking the truth in love! I hope you won't continue to feel like an outcast and I'm sorry that you do. You are so very correct. Let's stop focusing on ourselves and focus on Jesus instead. I really appreciated your post.

[Abiding in His Word]

Peri

Always good to see you back - even for a quick post! You said:

I suspect the true (God's view) position is that there are many who end up trying to be faithful to truth and do so in a less than loving fashion...

AND there are those who simply aren't mature enough in God's word to take correction as anything other than a personal attack.

There is, as usual in your posts, much truth to ponder and digest. I have one point to make regarding your two types of posters above.

If a Christian poster is mature enough to have the truth, be faithful to it, and try to convince others of it, wouldn't you think they would also be mature enough to express that truth with words that are not abrasive, insulting, and condescending? That without those virtues, the post of the "mature" might provoke defensiveness from the less mature?

just a thought.......

[C-YA]

If a Christian poster is mature enough to have the truth, be faithful to it, and try to convince others of it, wouldn't you think they would also be mature enough to express that truth with words that are not abrasive, insulting, and condescending? That without those virtues, the post of the "mature" might provoke defensiveness from the less mature?

that may be fine in the real world, but this is the world of the "discussion board". the place where words that are not meant as insulting or condescending get taken that way.

[Exit40]

Hi Peri. You said...........

So we end up with 2 camps...one accusing the other of being unloving while being themselves accused of shutting their eyes to the truth.

Boy, if only life were so simple we could know who we appear to be just by picking one of two camps. That is if we bother to try figure it out. It is amazing to me how many can see others so clearly and not be able to understand themselves and their affect on others.

So those who believe others are not LOVING enough see Herb's commentary as supporting their view...

And those who see others as not valuing TRUTH enough see Herb's commentary as supporting their view.

This sort of thing happens when belief and fact become confused. So Truth and Love get cast to the ground. But not by all. Some see this as a ' methinks thou doth protest too much' situation. Jesus brings the sword. We are told to put ours up. And be wise as serpents, but gentle as doves.

Herb, I hope you know how much I support the way you run your board. This is a marvelous place to discuss both Truth and Love, and to be able to do so without fear of attack by mods/admins is such a blessing. While I don't adhere to the RRE theory completely, I have to admit your work and research is stunning, and you could be right. And there is nothing wrong with increasing a ministry that searches for Truth. God Bless you.

God Bless

David

[Mario]

Well said perigrini! THAT was speaking the truth in love! I hope you won't continue to feel like an outcast and I'm sorry that you do. You are so very correct. Let's stop focusing on ourselves and focus on Jesus instead. I really appreciated your post.

Speaking of Jesus, I've thought about three instances in which Jesus demonstrated anger and/or used abrasive language:
Mt 23:13-15
Mk 3:5
Mk 11:15-17

In each of those instances, Christ was frustrated at the hardness of heart and pride of the Jewish leaders because their decisions and actions raised barriers that "shut the kingdom of heaven against men" and made converts "twice as much a child of Gehenna" as themsleves.

Mk 11:17 ...Is it not written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations"? but you have made it a den of robbers.

Earlier, Herb's character was challenged over an issue concerning eschatology, not salvation. Christ would not have done that. Nor, God willing, will I.

The fact that I'm Catholic can arch many an eyebrow, but on the two occasions I have directly interacted with Herb, he has both stood firm and been gracious. Thank you Herb.

As Paul warned:

1Cor 8:1-2 ...Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.

[Favoritetopic]

Hey...any of you interested in the funniest bumper sticker I've ever seen????

It said:

JESUS! Save me from Your people...

OMGosh...didn't Jesus choose to hang out with the people who were 'sinners'? I'd guess because they were a lot of fun. I know, just a joke, he was working at saving souls.

Where's the fun on this board? I'm pretty new here and you all are so dang serious? Is life REALLY this serious?

I love the Lord, I do my best to stay repentent of my past life of partying like a rock star. I try to lead people to the path that leads to life.

Here we have lists to follow, critisisms and not enough love and too much finger pointing...GEEZ - I thought this was a prophecy web site? Maybe I missed somthing here but can we all take a chill pill and relax? Why so easily offended? My bad, I don't know the history but PA-LEEZ - let's have some fun here? And people reading this who may not be Christians yet...now maybe never, hope your head doesn't hurt as bad as mine does. I know I'm a fun person, love life and try not to take things too seriously. After all, this is just temporary, the real gift comes in eternity when all of this pety stuff won't matter.

PARTY ON!!! Opps, just kidding.

[Sherree]

Well Herb, I agree, and I can say that without even throwing myself into one of the two primary camps involved...although, truth be told, I left this board because I was in the "truth is important" camp and got tired of being accused of being unloving enough.

Same here, peri. We are actually agreeing on something

While being a moderator on the board, I was constantly being accused of not being loving while standing for the truth. Now it has gotten so bad that I do not feel welcome here any longer.

It seems to me that the board has to make a decision, either take a strong stand for the TRUTH, or all hold hands and sing ,"Kume BY YA. Sadly, that is the same approach that set off the whole Rick Warren and their another gospel and another Jesus mess.

Some of you may know that I have had differences with peri in the past, but I agree with him wholeheartedly on what he had to say.

Thanks for your time.

[Bob the Quiet]

Its always 'two choices' with people. There is a third choice this board can, and often does, make. Stand by the truth, and do so in a loving fashion. If you are holding to the truth and speaking that truth in love, it simply isn't your fault if someone takes your words personally and gets mad.

[ChurchGirl]

I do believe we are being attacked by the enemy here. I believe we are so close to the truth that is in this prophecy being revealed that we've gotten satan's attention.

It reaks of the enemy. Discontention, strife...
The difference in the debate? There is no joy.
JOY is what FavoriteTopic related to me in his post.

Time to pray over FP. EVERYONE.

???

Who's gonna lead us in prayer right now?

[Shelby]

I'm moving my question to a more appropriate spot.

[Andevian]

Greetings everyone.
First of all, I'd like to say thanks to Mr. Peters for running this site and continuing to show us his interpretation of things.

I've been lurking this site and message board for a while now. I even share the URL with some others. However, I do typically warn them, especially if they aren't so mature in their faith, to stay off the message boards. If I were to sum up the prevailing attitude of many of the posters and even some of the moderators on this site, it would be: "Thank you God that I am not a sinner like that pre-tribber / post-tribber / Democrat / person-who-thinks-TranslationX-is-really-the-Bible-when-clearly-only-TranslationY-is / anyone-else-who-isn't-like me ... (ref Luke 18:10-14) well I could go on for a while. This is actually one of the better boards, but if it hadn't been for a topic like this, I would literally have been afraid to post here. My faith and belief gets more general respect from the atheists and agnostics I encounter than many of the users of this site afford each other.

It's quite common for me to see someone say that book/chapter/verse XX YY:ZZ "clearly" means a certain thing when such an interpretation isn't clear at all, then continue building an entire theory on that foundation of shifting sand. I still have yet to see a convincing argument for pre-trib/post-trib/pre-wrath etc. etc. and I doubt there are any explanations I've missed. And yet, so many are so convinced that their interpretation is the one and only one, and whatever inspiration they feel they've received from God on the matter is so much stronger than the inspiration that anyone else has received contrary, that it's OK to run people with opposing viewpoints into the ground. Just because you don't mention someone by name doesn't mean they won't be hurt by the general insult you fling out.

I think that many people who've been arguing the same "facts" for so long that they've forgotten where they started would do very well to go back and recheck their basic assumptions. They get so on fire to defend their point of view that they never even think that someone else may know something they don't or have an equally valid yet differing viewpoint on a matter of opinion. Just remember, the Gnostics also believed they held secret knowledge that others weren't capable of understanding and thus had the only true key to Heaven's gates, and we're still feeling the effects of that centuries later. The real truth is that if we follow the basic precepts that pretty much all Christians agree on, we'll be directly in the presence of Jesus someday. Whatever time remains between now and then compared to the eternity we'll spend in his perfect presence is such a miniscule thing that it really seems like a completely trivial matter to worry over its timing at all. Watching people argue about it makes me feel like I'm watching two year olds squabble over one blue Lego out of the entire bucket.

As I read the forums here, the thought that generally goes through my head is: "Aren't we all on the same side?" Christians are one of the only groups of people left in this country that it is still considered socially acceptable to persecute, so to see Christians knowingly and willingly persecuting each other in the name of one-upmanship just saddens me. As people run around screaming about "homosexual this!" and "Muslim that!" and whatever else, I'd like to remind them that we all fall short of God's standard. To make it even more black and white, Hitler fell short of the grace of God; so did Mother Theresa. There are enough people out there trying to take us all down. We don't need to be helping them.

Well, that's the end of my ramble. Thanks again Mr. Peters for posting what has been eating away at me for a while. I hope at least a few people will begin to consider their words a little more carefully before firing away with them.

[Abiding in His Word]

Andevian

to the FP board! I haven't read your post yet, but wanted to tell you how happy I am to have you with us first.

[OneOfTheseDays]

Andevian

And by the way, I completely agree. We're all on the same side and I feel arguing over pointless details does more harm than good. The great thing is, is that no matter what you believe about the rapture, as long as you've accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you're saved.

[Be still]

Andevian Welcome to the board!