Destroy

[Herb]

This board is not the place to attack the foundational tenants of the historic Chrisitan faith. So, even though this thread was wisely closed, I'll throw in a bit of information.

In the Bible the meaning of destroy wasn't used as JWs and some others suggest to disprove the existance of eternal torment. In Matt. 10:28 Thayer (Thayer's Greek English Lexcion) says the Greek word used for destroy also means to render usless -- to give over to eternal misery. In the O.T. the same is true of the word. For example, in Job 19:10 we find Job saying God destroyed him, yet he remained alive. And in Hos. 13:9-10 it says God destroyed Israel, yet Israel ontinued to exist.

Herb

[jay7]

Some Christians believe in eternal life outside of Jesus Christ, a life of eternal torture. Others believe that the soul will be literally destroyed, Matthew 10:28 (not rendered "useless" but destroyed) and consumed into smoke, Psalms 37:20:

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


This proves a true destruction rather than a non-destruction. This is why Rev. says:


Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


The wicked shall be "consumed away" and such former things will be "passed away" in the eternity.

Amen to our just God.

[Bob the Quiet]

Eternal torment isn't life.

[ConsidermySavior]

Jay7 are you a Jehovah Witness? I only ask because I’m curious. The scriptures you have posted in your signature are incomplete and appear to be an attempt to discredit the divinity of Jesus being God. They do tend to come across as being very misleading when taken out of context.

Example:

You quote:

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true

However your quote of the scripture leaves out the word ‘alone’ as evident in the same portion of scripture and although not explicitly stated in all manuscripts it is implied by the surrounding verses - - taken from the New American Standard –

John 5: 30 I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just; because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.

John 5:31 If I alone bear witness of myself, My testimony is not true.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the testimony which He bears of Me is true.


This was just simple straight forward question … looking for an honest answer.

[jay7]

Eternal torment isn't life.

Are the ones cast into the lake of fire dead or alive and do they exist eternally?

[jay7]

Jay7 are you a Jehovah Witness? I only ask because I’m curious.

Nothing wrong with that. No I'm not. Are you?

The scriptures you have posted in your signature are incomplete and appear to be an attempt to discredit the divinity of Jesus being God. They do tend to come across as being very misleading when taken out of context.

Pardon? Those scriptures are quite complete and do not take away from Christ being divine. I first used them in my signature at another forum to show my support in the Trinity which at that time others did not believe in so this was a small way to witness to others.

However your quote of the scripture leaves out the word ‘alone’ as evident in the same portion of scripture and although not explicitly stated in all manuscripts it is implied by the surrounding verses - - taken from the New American Standard –

John 5: 30 I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just; because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.

John 5:31 If I alone bear witness of myself, My testimony is not true.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the testimony which He bears of Me is true.

I am quoting the KJV and the word "alone" doesn't appear in that translation. The inclusion of "alone" does not add to or alter the meaning of the verse and as you yourself admit, that word isn't even in the manuscripts. I don't have any real disagreements with the bible translation you quote the verses from because they convey the same message as the kjv does.

[ConsidermySavior]

Jay, Thank you for clarifying.

I had to ask because the scriptures in your signature could appear to some to be an attempt to discredit the divinity of Jesus being God … when taken alone.

Nothing personal - it was just a question.

[jay7]

Not a problem.

BTW, I'll include something I put together to prove his divinity to someone who doubted that and that He was eternal (enjoy!):

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

evermore
165

165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age


1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


eternal
166

166 aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}

from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj

AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

For Synonyms see entry 5801



1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.



2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

ever
165

165 aion {ahee-ohn'}

from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m

AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age



Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Paul teaches that the Father referred to the Son as "God".


1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

So is the Son eternal? Of course Is the Son also God? Of course.



**********************

For the doubters of who Jesus Christ is and that He is God:



Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Paul teaches that the Father referred to the Son as God. Paul was divinely taught by God so there is no way Paul is wrong or adding to the old testament:


Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Psalms 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Someone who is identified as God is speaking to someone else and calling them God. We know this is concerning Jesus Christ so God, Jesus's God, is calling Jesus "O God" because Jesus is also God. How could Jesus as God also serve a God? Because Jesus's God is God the Father. Jesus refers to his God, which is also our God, many times in scripture. This does not mean Jesus is not God, nor does it mean Jesus is a second God. God is not one single person, but two persons who are one God. This is no different than two people who are married being considered as one.


1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yes, God was manifest or revealed in the flesh. Not only in the image of God, but literally God in the flesh!

manifest
"to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown"

God was made visible to us in human form! Sadly this biblical fact is still hidden and unknown to some people!

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Christ was truly God with human kind while he was in the flesh. He is with us now in spirit and is returning!

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Christ is our "mighty God"!

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Even Thomas the "doubter" knows who is our Lord and God! Blessed are those who believe that without having seen Christ! Those who deny Christ is our Lord and God are NOT blessed people.


Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Here we have the words "the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

Since we already know that only the Son returns at the 7th trump while the Father remains in heaven we can determine that it is solely Jesus here that is being called by two titles. He is both called our "great God" and "our Saviour". "great God" is identical to the Hebrew phrase addressing Jesus as "mighty God" in the old testament.


Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

One of God's names is "I am". No one but God may refer to themselves as "I am".


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus is God because he was I AM before Abraham ever existed.