Am I predestined for wrath?

[InFearOfHim]

I have taken the biblical steps to become a Christian (I am FULLY aware I am a sinner, I have prayed a prayer of repentance and confess my sin almost daily).

HOWEVER...

I have no heart for the things of God. My desires still revlove around me. I am self-centered and not Christ centered. Christ love for others just doesn't seem to be in me as I want to put myself first. I don't feel the fruits of my life reflect those of a true Christian, and I feel powerless to correct the problem. I have prayed for so long for Christ to lead me to a place of true living for him, to no avail. I feel as though I am trying to invite myself to a party where I was not invited.

I can (and do sometimes) force myself into the work that James says shows true faith, but it's just me doing it out of fear, not out of true Christian love (which is clearly the wrong order of things). Works should be an outpouring of expression based on love and true faith.

My devotions are lacking which obviously can't be helping but I have thus far been unable to create the proper spritual habits due to not having a heart for it - it is always forced and I don't seem to hunger for it as a true beleiver would.

So if I beleive in Christ, have prayed for forgiveness and salvation, been baptized, and hate my sin but the life of Christ won't take hold in me, what can the problem be?

My only theory is to do with the idea of predestination...many times the Bible references those who were predestined before the beginning of time to become the sons of God. If some are predestined to be sons of God, then clearly others are not. Perhaps I am the way I am because I am not called and it can never be.

Are some people just unsavable??

[Bob the Quiet]

God didn't 'pick' some people to be saved and the rest to burn forever in Hell. God is merciful and loving, not sadistic and cruel.

Mark 16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Have you been baptized?

Other than that, the Christian life is a daily struggle. If you were promised a life of ease and leisure then someone lied to you.

[ChurchGirl]

It's not about how you FEEL. It sounds as if you are seeking a fire to burn within you. The fact you are seeking means something, seeking is the spark to the fire that God will ignite in you.
God calls us to seek Him.
I believe you are facing one of the ememy's most subtle attacks. Have faith you are saved through Jesus. Don't let your feelings cloud the word of God.

I have no heart for the things of God. My desires still revlove around me. I am self-centered and not Christ centered. Christ love for others just doesn't seem to be in me as I want to put myself first. I don't feel the fruits of my life reflect those of a true Christian, and I feel powerless to correct the problem. I have prayed for so long for Christ to lead me to a place of true living for him, to no avail. I feel as though I am trying to invite myself to a party where I was not invited.

You DO have the heart for the things of God, because Jesus is your savior. You are torn between your flesh and your spirit - Paul had the same problem. Christ's love is in you - because you are in Christ. You can move mountains with your faith not your feelings. God said so.

It goes beyond positve thinking or saying affirmations. I am proclaiming that you are saved through your faith in Jesus Christ. I proclaim that this trial for you will soon come to an end and the fruit that will be produced from this seeking of your Lord will be abundant and contagious! Meaning your witness in this area is going to bring someone else closer to God.

So, my advice....pay attention to your Teacher and glean from this experience, this valley - the most you can so that you will be better equipped to fulfill your purpose in the body of Christ.

You are in my prayers,

[InFearOfHim]

Thank you for your response. Yes, I have been baptized - full immersion with public confession of faith - Old School Baptist style :-)

I don't understand your point about "life of ease". I'm not asking "why is it so hard", I'm asking "if I've taken the steps to become a Christian as outlilned by the Bible, then why are is Christ's love and desire for the things of God missing from my life?"

The key evidence that Faith is valid is love, is it not? The abundance of Christ's love in us and the power of the Holy Spirit in us changes our desires and produces works that demonstrate living faith. To me, my self-centeredness and works resulting from guilt rather than love indicates simply an intellectual conversion, not a true rebirth of the Spirit. Why has this not happened?

Or maybe I'm just over complicating it. Sigh.

[InFearOfHim]

Thank you ChurchGirl for the encouragement - I pray that your words are truth :-)

[Bob the Quiet]

Thank you for your response. Yes, I have been baptized - full immersion with public confession of faith - Old School Baptist style :-)

I don't understand your point about "life of ease". I'm not asking "why is it so hard", I'm asking "if I've taken the steps to become a Christian as outlilned by the Bible, then why are is Christ's love and desire for the things of God missing from my life?"

The key evidence that Faith is valid is love, is it not? The abundance of Christ's love in us and the power of the Holy Spirit in us changes our desires and produces works that demonstrate living faith. To me, my self-centeredness and works resulting from guilt rather than love indicates simply an intellectual conversion, not a true rebirth of the Spirit. Why has this not happened?

Or maybe I'm just over complicating it. Sigh.

Apologies, there are just some preachers out there today who proclaim a false gospel of 'life improvement'....like "accept Jesus and this problem in your life will be solved plus you'll be happy, wealthy, and wise!". I was just trying to make sure you hadn't fallen into that trap.

ChurchGirl, while it is good to encourage people and to say kind words to people, it is not our place (with our limited perspective) to 'proclaim' that a person is saved. Only God knows our hearts.

[ChurchGirl]

ChurchGirl, while it is good to encourage people and to say kind words to people, it is not our place (with our limited perspective) to 'proclaim' that a person is saved. Only God knows our hearts.

I agree with you completely, that's why I prefaced my statemet of faith with the specifc proclamation that it is more than just affirmations.

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your house.

If Infearofhim had said anything contrary to proclaiming Jesus as his/her Savior and subsequent repentance of sin - then I would not have proclaimed his/her salvation. Who am I to doubt Infearofhim's words?

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Much Love,

[water]

Predestiny.

I encounter a lot of confusion in Christians on this idea of predestiny.

I hope I can clear this up for you.

God gave us free will and will never take it away, even if we choose eternal damnation...he will let us go the way we choose.

God does not want us to choose death, but he loves us so much that he will not make robots out of us.

When God says that some are predestined for death and not eternal life, it is because he is not bound by time and can see where our choices and free will lead us. We predestine ourselves, not God.

So, this is the truth and I encourage you to start reading the Bible. I can tell you this...I have been saved for 8 years. When I was first saved, I was hard pressed to read the Bible because the King James Version was absolute torture for me...hehehe. Don't get me wrong, I could understand it, but it was a struggle.

I would recommend picking up a NLT Bible, you can read about it here:

LINK

Now to the matter of whether you are truly saved or not, it is true, that is between you and God for only God can judge hearts.

Let's do this...read the booklet in the link below. It is a simple and short guide to understand the vary states of our soul regarding salvation. Read it, think about it, and be honest with where you think you are (there are 5 steps). Then come back and discuss it with us. We want to see you in Heaven, so be sure to ask whatever you need to ask.

The enemy likes to play games with us and we can get to the bottom line of our salvation in short order.

http://www.stepuptolife.com/Media/SUTL_English_Adult_2005.pdf

[kat]

I have this same struggle!!! HA!! I just started reading Romans..and I don't know what led me to read it...but so far it is clicking for me!!

God would have ALL of us be saved!! Reading the bible is work...and being a Christian isn't something that all of a sudden you are this holier than thou person...We all sin...it is a daily struggle...to try to live as Jesus would have us live...
I feel like I am always falling short of God's Will for me...and the truth is...I do fall short..but that is the good part of Grace...that is Why God sent his son Jesus to die For us...not us to do good for Him...we can't...
Just don't give up on your faith...it will grow...the tiny mustard seed..needs to be planted..and taken care of...food, water...the word..and fellowship...and it GROWS!! It isn't something that goes from being a itty bitty seed to the next day the biggest tree...it takes time. Hang in there!! I will be praying for you!!

[water]

I agree with you completely, that's why I prefaced my statemet of faith with the specifc proclamation that it is more than just affirmations.

I was with you, ChurchGirl.

[ChurchGirl]

was?

just kidding!

[davidbutterfield]

repentance is an act, not a prayer you pray. if you believe with all your heart that Jesus Christ is the Lord, and turn from your sins(repent), you will be saved. Sanctification is a process, and we can never be perfect in this life, but if you keep repenting you will start to become more and more like Jesus Christ. if you want you can pm or email me and we can talk about this further if you're looking for guidance.

[Be still]

Sanctification is a process

It certainly is, a lifelong process.

[Bob the Quiet]

Yup. Gotta feel sorry for all these people who think that its a 'do it once and its all over' deal. I imagine that kind of thinking has a lot to do with why so many Christians are depressed all the time.

[tsth]

Dear InFear,

You must continue to stay in His Word every day! It is important to partake of God's Word, and believe It to the point that it takes root.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

19 My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.


In His Love,
Suzanne

[keithareilly]

In fear of Him,

I have been a Christian for 20 years. At first I was very zealous but had
little love. I was not happy with myself either. Eventually, I stopped
doing the things people told were the right things to do (I had to leave a
congregation to do this) and began concentrating on loving God. I did
this because Jesus said If you love me you will keep my comandments.
And his commandments are to love one another. So I learned mostly
that Christianity is about learning to love as God loves.

It Is Very Hard. It is Very Hard On You.

There are not always rewards here on the earth for them.

One of the things I had to learn was how great my sin was. It is those
who are fogiven much who love much and I was arrogant and did not
think I was forgiven very much because I was better than most people or
so I thought. God showed me otherwise and continues to show me
otherwise. As he continually puts my sin before my face I have learned
to appreciate his forgiveness and have been learning I have been
forgiven a great deal. Even sins I committed as a Christian and they
seem to be worse than those of my pre Christian days.

The other things I have elarned is that salvation is about gaining control
over your own body so that we can accomplish the task set before us.
When Jesus said some seed is choked by the cares of the world he was
not kidding. It is very hard to loose the material desires we are
constantly bombarded with in American society.

In general, being concerned with yourself is not always a bad thing. I am
a Christian for my own benefit and you are concerned about your
salvation for your own benefit.

My experience is that one of the great lies is that Christianity and
Christians are NOT supposed to be concerned about themselves. This is
one of the greatest lies I have seen in Christianity and it is used to gain
control over beleivers for a variety of purposes.

When paul was on the road to damascus, Jesus told him "It is not good
for you to kick against the Godes".

The point here is that seeking our own self interest is not inconsistant with
serving God. Having and raising Children is best done by those who
WANT children. It is a selfish thing. And what you are saying is that you
want a selfishely to be approved of by God but your conciense convicts
you.

It sounds to me like you are not very far along the path and that the spirit
is moving you to look in the mirror and judge yourself.

Remember, we are not saved by works but by faith. So applying yourself
to the things you think you should be doing because you think you will be
saved if you do them is the wrong approach. Many have said fake it till
you make it. this is wrong. Jesus said clean the inside of the cup and
then the outside will be clean also. So work on the inside of the cup and
don't worry about the outside. Look in the mirror to see how you are
doing on your cleaning remebering that what you clean on the inside will
show on the outside but don't try to whitewash it does not work and
Christianity was not indented to work that way.

Hope this helps,

Keith

[mizbayakh]

I believe the Holy Spirit testifies to your soul when you are saved (not that you never have a doubt again..but I hope you know what I mean).

These sermons might give you some food for thought (and mods...I'm sorry, I do not understand how to shorten the links so that they still work)

The 2nd one deals specifically with salvation and how you will know it.
Also, why we shouldn't reassure someone who isn't sure!
Both are a must listen!

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.a ... 2906154239

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.a ... 3006232159

[ChurchGirl]

Woke up with you on my heart Infearofhim. Still praying.

keithareilly - very well said.

[InFearOfHim]

You guys have overwhelmed me with your loving responses - and homework ;-)

I will study the links and info you have provided and re-examine. I really appreciate your time on my be half :-)

[mommyjen]

Start reading your Bible. It sounds like you have already, but that is the way God usually sharpens me!

[InFearOfHim]

After reading the step up to life link I have concluded:

1. I have made the spritual u-turn from my sin as required by the repentance step (I am aware of and hate my sin and confess daily).

2. I have NOT made the spiritual u-turn regarding CONTROL OF MY LIFE as required by the repentance step. I retain control of my life because:

a. I am lazy
b. I am tired (work during the day, take care of family at night as my wife works nights)
c. I am fearful of what God would ask of me.

This is either crippling my relationship with God or completetly preventing salvation (not sure which).

3. I am expecting too much of my feelings.

ACTION PLAN:

As mentioned above, I do not do devotions consistantly due do lack of feeling hunger for it. I've heard it takes 18 days to form a habit so I will commit to my self to Scripture reading and prayer once a day for 30 days and re-evaluate my situation.

What do you guys think?

[InFearOfHim]

BTW thank you all again for your time and prayers :-)

[Abiding in His Word]

InFearOfHim

You've been given some very helpful information here. I do hope you will stay in touch with your brothers and sisters in the Lord here on the forum. They will be an inspiration and support to you during difficult times.

Blessings to you.....

[ChurchGirl]

Infearofhim - I receive daily devotional emails from www.crosswalk.com since I always check my email. They have some great resources there and then yesterday I received this devotion and you instantly came to mind.
****************************

In Touch Daily Devotional
by Dr. Charles Stanley
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saturday July 15, 2006
The Call to Servanthood
Galatians 5:13

Three New Testament writers opened their epistles in a similar way: “Paul, a bondservant of Christ Jesus…” (Romans 1:1), “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ…” (2 Peter 1:1), and “James, a bond-servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ…” (James 1:1). These men whom we call great for their unfailing commitment to the Gospel viewed themselves as humble workers.

God calls each believer to a life of service, just as He called these men. This should be an exciting prospect, but too many people get hung up on the belief that they cannot be “as good” as the apostles of old or the preachers and missionaries of today. A popular idea in the church is that the Lord’s servants are those doing full-time ministry but that everyone else is simply trying to live well. Nothing could be further from the truth. From God’s perspective, you and I are the same as Paul, Peter, and James: servants with important kingdom work to do.

Some kingdom jobs look more important than others, but that’s only because we evaluate with human eyes. Every work that advances the Gospel or serves a need is valuable, from cleaning the church or preaching to evangelizing or recording a praise album.

Not every person can be on a foreign mission field, but we all can share the Gospel with a neighbor. Some people can sing in the choir; others can put a dollar in the hand of homeless man. God invites us to do His work in the world, whether the task is great or small — and we do it by serving our fellow man. What is He calling you to do?

*************
Still praying....

[tsth]

Dear Infear,

I think that you have taken the right steps to be pleasing to the Lord, by self-examination......that is always the BIGGEST step. I think you have a good plan.....just begin each day with God's Word, it is your shield and framework of our faith. We cannot know Who God Is, without spending the time in His Word. It would be much like marrying and then asking our spouse NEVER to speak to us. We MUST spend time listening to those we love, not to mention those who love us and KNOW what is best for us, and then if we believe we will follow with the actions of belief.

In His Love,
Suzanne

[lookingup]

www.blueletterbible.org go to search mode on look up the various words..ie. faith love,salvation, etc..you will be blessed by what you will find in the Word that assures..let me say that again, assures us of our sealed redemption in Christ Jesus..also, google John MacArthur..has website...www.gracetoyou.org I think it is..wonderful, inciteful man of God...has helped me with many a doubt I have been burdened with..the struggle of the flesh against the Spirit..is an affirmation of your place in Jesus...Paul over and over again spoke of the battle we are engaged in until we "finish the race"..God bless you! Romans 4...then read Romans 8...gotta love it..

[Nocturne]

God didn't 'pick' some people to be saved and the rest to burn forever in Hell. God is merciful and loving, not sadistic and cruel.

Mark 16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Have you been baptized?

Other than that, the Christian life is a daily struggle. If you were promised a life of ease and leisure then someone lied to you.

Do you believe baptism is necessary for salvation Bob?

This just kind of sounds that you believe someone isn't saved unless they have been baptized.

[cccc]

I have taken the biblical steps to become a Christian (I am FULLY aware I am a sinner, I have prayed a prayer of repentance and confess my sin almost daily).

HOWEVER...

I have no heart for the things of God. My desires still revlove around me. I am self-centered and not Christ centered. Christ love for others just doesn't seem to be in me as I want to put myself first. I don't feel the fruits of my life reflect those of a true Christian, and I feel powerless to correct the problem. I have prayed for so long for Christ to lead me to a place of true living for him, to no avail. I feel as though I am trying to invite myself to a party where I was not invited.

I can (and do sometimes) force myself into the work that James says shows true faith, but it's just me doing it out of fear, not out of true Christian love (which is clearly the wrong order of things). Works should be an outpouring of expression based on love and true faith.

My devotions are lacking which obviously can't be helping but I have thus far been unable to create the proper spritual habits due to not having a heart for it - it is always forced and I don't seem to hunger for it as a true beleiver would.

So if I beleive in Christ, have prayed for forgiveness and salvation, been baptized, and hate my sin but the life of Christ won't take hold in me, what can the problem be?

My only theory is to do with the idea of predestination...many times the Bible references those who were predestined before the beginning of time to become the sons of God. If some are predestined to be sons of God, then clearly others are not. Perhaps I am the way I am because I am not called and it can never be.

Are some people just unsavable??

I had the same problem you did it took me 15 years to understand how to finally begin to have power over sin. The first thing you need to do is completely surrender your heart truely not just saying I believe but praying and telling god I surrender and mentally doing it by surrendering you need to put god in your life first Ask God to work in you, ask him what is his will for you and keep praying it.

when you come to christ you need to come like Mephibosheth did to David you need to come a broken person feeling and understanding that you are without hope and that Christ is you only hope that their is nothing you can do that can save you I will leave that stoy below read it and have that attitude once you are broken ask go to work in you and build you back up. We come to Christ like Mephibosheth did with David



The next thing is you need to truely repent if your doing somthing that causes you to sin avoid it you have to change your lifestyle. for instance the music your listening too are the friends you hang out with the most are they saved? Another thing you need to do is READ YOUR BIBLE EVERYDAY its like mothers milk by reading it daily you grow and understand what God has intended you and how he wants you to live. Next get involve with a fellowship being fellowship with other Christians is the best thing for you. The Mind state you have to have is GOD comes first what I want doesnt matter. Surrender means just that Surrender mean putting God first giving your life completely to him allowing him to pilot to run your life not going with your own desires but of what god desires. Are you predestine for Hell no you have a genuine feeling your convicted so God is trying to work in you you have to surrender and allow him to work in you. Im in a church that is Calvinistic I actually do buy into it to a point. People that are predestine for hell would never have gone far as you did most would reject the Gospel at right and think your an idiot bible thumper. You have a desire to be saved so god is drawing you.
Its could also be that maybe you really are an advance Christian the more we grow spiritually the more we look at ourselves as unclean and unworthy of Gods grace we are harder on ourselves. Thats a good thing it means we have grown to a point where we understand what God likes and doesnt like. I dont know you so I dont know the situation

I just want to make another point that I see on this board that disturbs me Baptism does not Save you its a gift from God. If Baptism saved that would be a work it would take away Gods Glory and give you the Glory for being baptised. You cannot woork your way to heaven thats where you struggle to it is a free gift from god which is given to you when you put your faith and trust in Christ.


The Blood of Christ
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!


8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.



2 Samuel 9
David and Mephibosheth
1 David asked, "Is there anyone still left of the house of Saul to whom I can show kindness for Jonathan's sake?"
2 Now there was a servant of Saul's household named Ziba. They called him to appear before David, and the king said to him, "Are you Ziba?"
"Your servant," he replied.

3 The king asked, "Is there no one still left of the house of Saul to whom I can show God's kindness?"
Ziba answered the king, "There is still a son of Jonathan; he is crippled in both feet."

4 "Where is he?" the king asked.
Ziba answered, "He is at the house of Makir son of Ammiel in Lo Debar."

5 So King David had him brought from Lo Debar, from the house of Makir son of Ammiel.

6 When Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, came to David, he bowed down to pay him honor.
David said, "Mephibosheth!"
"Your servant," he replied.

7 "Don't be afraid," David said to him, "for I will surely show you kindness for the sake of your father Jonathan. I will restore to you all the land that belonged to your grandfather Saul, and you will always eat at my table."

8 Mephibosheth bowed down and said, "What is your servant, that you should notice a dead dog like me?"

9 Then the king summoned Ziba, Saul's servant, and said to him, "I have given your master's grandson everything that belonged to Saul and his family. 10 You and your sons and your servants are to farm the land for him and bring in the crops, so that your master's grandson may be provided for. And Mephibosheth, grandson of your master, will always eat at my table." (Now Ziba had fifteen sons and twenty servants.)

11 Then Ziba said to the king, "Your servant will do whatever my lord the king commands his servant to do." So Mephibosheth ate at David's [a] table like one of the king's sons.

12 Mephibosheth had a young son named Mica, and all the members of Ziba's household were servants of Mephibosheth. 13 And Mephibosheth lived in Jerusalem, because he always ate at the king's table, and he was crippled in both feet.

[Abiding in His Word]

cccc

A very good word and very well said! Thank you.

[ChurchGirl]

People that are predestine for hell would never have gone far as you did most would reject the Gospel at right and think your an idiot bible thumper.

I feel silly for asking this after so many posts - but I thought the original question was rhetorical.

How can someone be "pre-destined" for hell if God would have everyone be saved? Or am I misunderstanding the use of pre-destined.

It's not predestined as God made this person for hell, is it?

Or is it that God made this person even though He already knew that they would never accept Him?

[water]

People that are predestine for hell would never have gone far as you did most would reject the Gospel at right and think your an idiot bible thumper.

I feel silly for asking this after so many posts - but I thought the original question was rhetorical.

How can someone be "pre-destined" for hell if God would have everyone be saved? Or am I misunderstanding the use of pre-destined.

It's not predestined as God made this person for hell, is it?

Or is it that God made this person even though He already knew that they would never accept Him?

ChurchGirl, predestiny can mean a lot of things I suppose, but in the context of the Bible when it refers to those "predestined for Hell", it is only telling us that God knows ahead of time who will accept him and who will reject him. So it is our own actions and decisions that pre-determine our eternal destination...not God's.

God wants all to be saved, but he is a just and loving God. God very well could have created robots that would without exception accept his grace and answer his call, but God does not want robots.

God created mankind for his pleasure so he could fellowship with us. This is an important thing to understand! God created us so we could be friends with him, spend time with him, so we could enjoy God and he could enjoy us.

Now as I mentioned before, God did not want robots, or people that would be designed or forced into a friendship with him. If he did that, we would be like toys, not people to have relationship with. So once one understands *why* God created mankind, then we can understand the *need* for us to be created with our own free will, to choose for ourselves what we want.

Another thing we need to understand, which may not be that easy for some, is that God created time. Time is an integral part of God's physical creation, it is a dimension of our universe just like height, width, and depth. There is no place in our universe where one can escape time. Now some physicists theorize that under some extreme circumstances that we may be able to slow time or even travel back in time; however, under no circumstances can anyone or anything that is born of this physical universe ever fully escape time.

God's spiritual nature and spiritual kingdom are not of this physical universe. As far as we know and understand it, time only exists in this physical universe. God exists in a spiritual realm, or dimension if you want to call it that. God did take on a physical form in Jesus after he created this physical universe, but God is not subject to the laws of this universe, including time. He created all of what we see, he can destroy all of what we see, and he has absolute control over all that we see. He can manipulate and control all matter and every law of this universe, as we witnessed him doing through Jesus (raising the dead, feeding thousands from a few fish, calming the seas, walking on water, etc.)

Here is where many people stumble in their understanding of God. They think that since God created all things AND that he knows from the beginning who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell, that he created some people specifically to go to Hell...which is what predestiny is commonly thought to be.

But the truth is, God knew us before creation. God had it in his mind to create us with free will so that we might *choose* him, not follow some programmed behavior as an automaton.

So God created us and all of the physical universe and set it into motion. Since God is above the dimension of our physical universe, including time, he can hop to the end of time and back as we traverse a sidewalk. He can look from his throne to the very end and see what decisions we will make from where he sits...he could see these things before creation was set into motion.

So this is how the Bible can say that some are predestined for Hell. God created us with free will, but he can see our choices all the way to the end. He loves us too much to override our free will. He wants *relationship*, not toys.

Think of the huge risk God took creating us the way he did. He knew that some would not choose him. Imagine how his heart weeps for those that do not choose him.

He loves us so much that he chose an act of love that defies our understanding in this world. Before we chose him, and while we were still sinners, he came in the flesh, lived a perfect life, and let himself be sacrificed in a horrible manner to both provide a Way to him and to demonstrate his amazing love.

So, in summary, we choose our own eternal destination, not God. God wants all to choose well, but he loves us too much to make toys out of us. God can see where our choices will lead us before we are even born. God gave everyone an equal chance of coming to him through Jesus. We choose, not God.

[lookingup]

God being outside of our domain of time... availed to the entirety of His creation..sees where where we began, where we are, and where we are going..when God created man..He knew we would fail, and that free choice- would cause us to fall, that He would send Himself to ransom those who would seek Him..God says in Romans that every man who has ever been born has it inscribed upon his heart that there is indeed a God..even before the Law was established...righteousness prevailed for those who placed their trust in God..predestination alludes to the fact that God is Sovereign..knowing full well who will choose Him..therefore, they in His divine plan- are predestined. *There are 3 things God cannot do...1) God cannot lie..He is all Truth. 2) God cannot learn...He is all knowing..3) God cannot make you love Him..it is your free choice whether you do or do not.

[ChurchGirl]

Water Wrote
God wants all to be saved, but he is a just and loving God. God very well could have created robots that would without exception accept his grace and answer his call, but God does not want robots.

Whew! (hee hee) This is what I wanted to hear.

God created mankind for his pleasure so he could fellowship with us. This is an important thing to understand! God created us so we could be friends with him, spend time with him, so we could enjoy God and he could enjoy us.

What a beautiful picture!

Another thing we need to understand, which may not be that easy for some, is that God created time. Time is an integral part of God's physical creation, it is a dimension of our universe just like height, width, and depth. There is no place in our universe where one can escape time.

He an manipulate and control all matter and every law of this universe, as we witnessed him doing through Jesus (raising the dead, feeding thousands from a few fish, calming the seas, walking on water, etc.)

So God created us and all of the physical universe and set it into motion. Since God is above the dimension of our physical universe, including time, he can hop to the end of time and back as we traverse a sidewalk. He can look from his throne to the very end and see what decisions we will make from where he sits...he could see these things before creation was set into motion.

Thank you so much for taking the time out to address my question. You put into words what I haven't been able to. I am printing this out for my journal.

[cccc]

People that are predestine for hell would never have gone far as you did most would reject the Gospel at right and think your an idiot bible thumper.

I feel silly for asking this after so many posts - but I thought the original question was rhetorical.

How can someone be "pre-destined" for hell if God would have everyone be saved? Or am I misunderstanding the use of pre-destined.

It's not predestined as God made this person for hell, is it?

Or is it that God made this person even though He already knew that they would never accept Him?

you have to study the 5 points of calvinism to understand what he is talking about. Its very long a complicated and people can get very angry over it I will give a short summary. Man is totally depraved unable to come to Christ on his own. Man desires hell and rebellion against God God only picks a few to be saved the only way a person accepts Christ is if the father draws him. The other who are not picked are predestine for Hell and want no fellowship with Christ. These people are predistine for Hell. I really dont want to get into an Arminism Calvinism debate. I in the begininning didnt understand Calvinism once I did a bible study on it it isnt as hostile as it sounds Really in the end we still have a choice but its to hard to explain it here. This poster from what I see is from a baptist Church which most are calvinistic I came out of a presbyterian Church (NO not the USA a PCA church) so I understand what he is talking about predestined.

[cccc]

After reading the step up to life link I have concluded:

1. I have made the spritual u-turn from my sin as required by the repentance step (I am aware of and hate my sin and confess daily).

2. I have NOT made the spiritual u-turn regarding CONTROL OF MY LIFE as required by the repentance step. I retain control of my life because:

a. I am lazy
b. I am tired (work during the day, take care of family at night as my wife works nights)
c. I am fearful of what God would ask of me.

This is either crippling my relationship with God or completetly preventing salvation (not sure which).

3. I am expecting too much of my feelings.

ACTION PLAN:

As mentioned above, I do not do devotions consistantly due do lack of feeling hunger for it. I've heard it takes 18 days to form a habit so I will commit to my self to Scripture reading and prayer once a day for 30 days and re-evaluate my situation.

What do you guys think?

Thats your problem devotionals are a big part of why you are not feeling desire. Ask your pastor to get you a devotional schedule a follow it to a tee. AND PRAY EVERY NIGHT you need to be in deep prayer if your not a praying christian then you are not going to develop as a christian either

I have a wife and child too she works so I understand its hard but you have to commit you have to surrender and trust in the Lord. I was lazy too not wanting to get involved I finally surrendered I ask the Lord in prayer to come in me and work in me I ask him what is his Will for me.
The next thing you need to do is fellowship in you church you need to be with other Christians who you can talk too. You have to commit, god is convicting you to do this.
Thats why you are here asking for help dont resist pray ask him into your heart to change you into the follower he wants you to be and ask him what is his will for you. I will pray for you tonight.

[James]

It's funny Kat said she was going through the same thing as you, and was lead to read Romans. Go read Romans, because Paul experienced the same feelings you are experiencing, as have many Christians. And in Romans Paul works a lot of it out, if anything you will understand what you are going through is completely normal for Christians at one point in their walk.


Every Christian walks through different valleys at different times. Just trust that once your through the valley, you'll be standing up on that hill laughing at how somthing so simple got you so flustered. It always looks better from a birds-eye view. Keep trusting on Him, and reading His word.


James

[Peacebloom]

David, a humble and loving servant of Christ, to Infearofhim: Peace and mercy on your soul from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Please don't be so hard on yourself. I think the problem is that you are expecting some sort of fantastic transformation, but you are overlooking the love that God has shown for you.

You say that you continue to fail and that you continue to serve yourself. We all struggle with serving God each day. One of the easiest things you can do to help your relationship with God is by simply saying thank you.

Think about how God has shown you his word. You have been accepted by Jesus already! Think about how God died for you. Not just His death, but everything He has done for you.

It's apparent that you are afraid that God does not love you like He does other Christians, but He DOES LOVE YOU. Not because you did what you were told. Not because you comber your hair or brushed your teeth or got along nicely with the other kids. God loves you because He made you. You are His own child. He saved you from the snares of Satan so that you might learn to love him.

You should pray to him at least 3 times a day. Ask him for help. Ask him for mercy. Ask him for guidance and strength and the will to love him and everyone else. Ask him to show you his wonderful self. Thank him for all that he has shown you. Thank him for lving you and creating you and blessing you with all that you have. Worship and glorify him. Often times in prayer I find myself saying "God, you are so awesome!" And really, he is.

I'm afraid for you because you are judging yourself against some idea that once you accept Jesus you become perfect. It isn't just a leap of faith, it is a long journey of discovery. It isn't a self-centered discovery, but it is a discovery of the Person who loves you more than anyone else ever could.

The fact that you are so concerned with your own salvation is proof in itself that you are not presdestined to wrath, but to eternal life!

I'm sorry. I can't just give you an easy button to click to give you the kind of feeling of love that you yearn for, but I will pray for you. The thing is, love is an action that we must take on our own part. God never said that he would brainwash us into loving him. If he did, there would be no sense of repentance from sin. The only way we can stop sinning is by completely submitting ourselves to God and his purpose.

It's hard, I know, but you have to let Jesus forgive you when you fail. You just have to come crawling back to God for forgiveness. Slowly, you will see that God will never give up on you. Let me repeat that.

God will never give up on you. He will not leave you ever. Believe me when I say this. Our God, Jesus Christ, is never going to quit on you, so don't you ever quit on him. Don't fall apart in fear and sorrow. Remember what God said. He is faithful and true. His word stands forever. He will not be swayed. So take heart! Remember, you are on his side now, and nothing can separate you. Did you catch that?

Nothing can separate you from God. Not even your own actions. I know that you desire to love God. It is as easy as that. Just think about God. See him with your spirit. Imagine his glory, and say "I love you." If you do this, there is no doubt that you are safe in the arms of our beloved Creator.

And there is no place I would rather be.

Much love to you and everyone else who feels unwanted by God.

You are all in my prayers. My peace and the peace of God who is forever our Comforter be with you all. Amen.

[daffodyllady]

InFearOfHim, (what a lovely name!) I understand where you are coming from. It is hard to work up a hunger for the things of God sometimes.
However. Faith is not feelings. Faith is shown through obedience. If you have indeed turned to God, and asked him as best as you can, for forgiveness of sin, then He will not turn you away.

The fact that you feel the need of God, and that you have asked Him for forgiveness, proves His grace working in your heart!

I wonder if the problem here is that perhaps you are focusing on yourself. Self-focus can be a tool of the devil, either to lift us up in our own sight, or to cast us down. How much do you focus on the Lord? Thanksgiving is a commandment. Obey it daily. Prayer is a commandment. Obey it daily. Praise is a commandment....

Another thing I have found to be a great help when I find I am not where I want to be spiritually, is to pray asking God to turn my heart back to Him. To anoint me with fresh oil. To open my eyes to see Him again.

Every one of these requests is God's will! And I can testify that He will answer those requests!