The 144,000 all men?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

The 144,000 all men?

Postby Mark F on Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:21 am

Rev 14:4  These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.


I cannot recall this question being asked in anything I have read, so I'll ask all you Bible sleuths if you have run accross it.

The statement "These are the ones who we not defiled with women," seems to imply that they are male. In verses 3 and 4 "they" is also used and in all cases it seems to mean the whole group.

Albert Barnes commentary in e-Sword makes note that the word defiled carries the implication of illicit relations as marriage relations do not defile.I will include the portion for your reading. He also states that the word for virgin is in the masculine.
The thought just passed through my mind as reading it this morning.

Which were not defiled with women - Who were chaste. The word “defiled” here determines the meaning of the passage, as denoting that they were not guilty of illicit sexual intercourse with women. It is unnecessary to show that this is a virtue everywhere required in the Bible, and everywhere stated as among the characteristics of the redeemed. On no point are there more frequent exhortations in the Scriptures than on this; on no point is there more solicitude manifested that the professed friends of the Saviour should be without blame. Compare the Act_15:20 note; Rom_1:24-32 notes; 1Co_6:18 note; Heb_13:4 note. See also 1Co_5:1; 1Co_6:13; Gal_5:19; Eph_5:3; Col_3:5; 1Th_4:3. This passage cannot be adduced in favor of celibacy, whether among the clergy or laity, or in favor of monastic principles in any form; for the thing that is specified is, that they were not “defiled with women,” and a lawful connection of the sexes, such as marriage, is not defilement. See the notes on Heb_13:4. The word rendered here “defiled” - ἐμολύνθησαν emolunthēsan, from μολύνω molunō - is a word that cannot be applied to the marriage relation. It means properly to “soil, to stain, to defile.” 1Co_8:7; “their conscience being weak, is defiled.” Rev_3:4; “which have not defiled their garments.” The word does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament, except in the passage before us, and it will be seen at once that it cannot be applied to that which is lawful and proper, and consequently that it cannot be construed as an expression against marriage and in favor of celibacy. It is a word that is properly expressive of illicit sexual intercourse - of impurity and unchastity of life - and the statement is, that they who are saved are not impure and unchaste.
For they are virgins - παρθένοι parthenoi. This is the masculine form, but this form is found in the later Greek and in the Christian fathers. See Suidas and Suicer, Thes. The meaning of the word, when found in the feminine form, is well understood. It denotes a virgin, a maiden, and thence it is used to denote what is chaste and pure: virgin modesty; virgin gold; virgin soil; virgin blush; virgin shame. The word in the masculine form must have a similar meaning as applied to men, and may denote:
(a) Those who are unmarried;
(b) Those who are chaste and pure in general.
The word is applied by Suidas to Abel and Melchizedek. “The sense,” says DeWette, in loco, “cannot be that all these 144,000 had lived an unmarried life; for how could the apostle Peter, and others who were married, have been excluded? But the reference must be to those who held themselves from all impurity - “unkeuschheit und hurerei” - which, in the view of the apostles, was closely connected with idolatry.” Compare Bleek, Beitr. i. 185. Prof. Stuart supposes that the main reference here is to those who had kept themselves from idolatry, and who were thus pure. It seems to me, however, that the most obvious meaning is the correct one, that it refers to the redeemed as chaste, and thus brings into view one of the prominent things in which Christians are distinguished from the devotees of nearly every other form of religion, and, indeed, exclusively from the world at large. This passage, also, cannot be adduced in favor of the monastic system, because:
(a) Whatever may be said anywhere of the purity of virgins, there is no such commendation of it as to imply that the married life is impure;
(b) It cannot be supposed that God meant in any way to reflect on the married life as in itself impure or dishonorable;
(c) The language does not demand such an interpretation; and,
(d) The facts in regard to the monastic life have shown that it has had very little pretensions to a claim of virgin purity.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:40 am

Here's another view on this Mark F:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... evelation/

"The 144,000 are not an ethnic Jewish remnant, and certainly not an Anointed Class of saints who became Jehovah’s Witnesses before 1935. The 144,000 represent the entire community of the redeemed. Let me give you several reasons for making this claim. "

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


"Fourth, the 144,000 mentioned later in chapter 14 are those who have been “redeemed from the earth” and those who were “purchased from among men.” This is generic everybody kind of language. The 144,000 is a symbolic number of redeemed drawn from all peoples, not simply the Jews."


I hold this view also.


:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Mark F on Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:01 pm

So you don't think Rev 6:3-8 have any relation to this group of 144,000? Just two unrelated groups of 144,000?
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:11 pm

Mark F wrote:So you don't think Rev 6:3-8 have any relation to this group of 144,000? Just two unrelated groups of 144,000?


I believe you are thinking of verse 9 in Rev 6:

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.


As I see it, those saints spoken of in the above verse are a portion of the Body of Christ symbolized by the number 144,000.
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby slick on Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:43 am

Sonbeam wrote:Here's another view on this Mark F:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... evelation/

"The 144,000 are not an ethnic Jewish remnant, and certainly not an Anointed Class of saints who became Jehovah’s Witnesses before 1935. The 144,000 represent the entire community of the redeemed. Let me give you several reasons for making this claim. "

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


"Fourth, the 144,000 mentioned later in chapter 14 are those who have been “redeemed from the earth” and those who were “purchased from among men.” This is generic everybody kind of language. The 144,000 is a symbolic number of redeemed drawn from all peoples, not simply the Jews."


I hold this view also.


:blessyou:


REVELATION 7:4-8
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree.
Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
THE ABOVE ARE SPECIFICALLY JEWS..

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples

THE SECOND GROUP NON JEWISH SAVED

GOD-BLESS,
CLARENCE
slick
 
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:51 pm

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:45 pm

Sonbeam wrote:The 144,000 is a symbolic number of redeemed drawn from all peoples, not simply the Jews."


:a3:

FINALLY - Someone who's rightly discerning the World of God!
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2525
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Mark F on Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:55 pm

Rev 14:4  These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.


The main point of my question is, given the text states that these, the 144,000 were not defiled by women, implies by a normal, reasonable reading of the text that the 144,000 are men. We have no reason to believe that this infers a spiritual interpretation that this is speaking of spiritual defilement as a harlot is typically portrayed.

I also believe we have no reason to think this is a separate group of 144,000 than that of Revelation 7.

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: 


The plain, clear, reasonable interpretation is to give weight to every word in the text. I do not believe that when we disregard the text that this is discernment, which is to then be commended.

The typed dialog is lacking in so many ways, engaging in personal dialog over Scriptures, face to face, is by far so much more edifying.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:52 am

Sonbeam wrote:Here's another view on this Mark F:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... evelation/

"The 144,000 are not an ethnic Jewish remnant, and certainly not an Anointed Class of saints who became Jehovah’s Witnesses before 1935. The 144,000 represent the entire community of the redeemed. Let me give you several reasons for making this claim. "

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


"Fourth, the 144,000 mentioned later in chapter 14 are those who have been “redeemed from the earth” and those who were “purchased from among men.” This is generic everybody kind of language. The 144,000 is a symbolic number of redeemed drawn from all peoples, not simply the Jews."


I hold this view also.


:blessyou:


Mark F

The comments are posted above are quotes from the commentary I found here:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... evelation/

I've held the same view for some time, but the author of the commentary explains the reasons why much better
than I ever could.

So may I suggest you take a look at his given reasons and see why you disagree?


:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:53 am

My understanding on this is that following the rapture of the church, 144,000 Jewish men will be sealed by God, and will begin to go from town to town in Isreal announcing the Gospel of the Kingdom. This sealing is at the beginning of the 70th Week.

Halfway through the week, they will be gathered to Jerusalem, where they will be translated to Zion, to stand before the Throne of God on the same crystal sea where the church was seen, an innumerable multitude.

If you have any questions about any of this, feel free to ask!

Much love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 14156
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:58 am

Sonbeam wrote: The 144,000 is a symbolic number of redeemed drawn from all peoples, not simply the Jews."


I hold this view also.


:blessyou:


Hi Sonbeam,

How would I know this is symbolic in not what it says outright, 144,000 Jews? Especially considering that we're given the tribe by tribe breakdown?

For myself, I always want to know the Biblical authority to determine something is a symbol, and where the Bible tells me what that symbol means.

Much love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 14156
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Ready1 on Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:11 am

mark s wrote:
Sonbeam wrote: The 144,000 is a symbolic number of redeemed drawn from all peoples, not simply the Jews."


I hold this view also.


:blessyou:


Hi Sonbeam,

How would I know this is symbolic in not what it says outright, 144,000 Jews? Especially considering that we're given the tribe by tribe breakdown?

For myself, I always want to know the Biblical authority to determine something is a symbol, and where the Bible tells me what that symbol means.

Much love!


In my opinion, the dragon of Revelation 12 is a great example of this. It is a symbol because scripture indicates it is a symbol and the word then goes on to explain who the dragon is.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2826
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Ready1 on Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:42 am

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


I guess I would see these passages a little differently from some of you. Only two passages deal with the one hundred and forty-four thousand.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2826
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Ready1 on Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:44 am

My observations on the 144,000

1. At the request of one angel, four angels stop the destruction which they are meting out upon the earth to allow at least that one angel (and possibly others) to “seal” this group of people. Rev 7:1-3
2. The people in this group are called “servants of God” Rev 7:3
3. These servants of God have been bought back or “redeemed from among men” Rev 14:4
4. They are considered to be a “firstfruits unto God and the Lamb”, Jesus. Rev 14:4
5. The seal that they are sealed with is called “the seal of the living God”

6. The people in this group are “sealed” in a specific location, i.e. their forehead. Rev 7:3
7. The “seal” in their foreheads is the “Father’s name.” Rev 14:1
8. John heard the number of people who were “sealed” and that number was, 144,000. Rev 7:4
9. Of the 144,000, 100% of them were only from the tribes of the children of Israel. Rev 7:4
10. Each of the tribes of Israel had an equal number of those who were sealed. Rev 7:5-8

11. The tribes with those who were sealed were: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manassas, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph, Benjamin. Rev 7:5-8
12. The number of each tribe who were sealed was 12,000. Rev 7:5-8
13. In spite of the fact that Israel, as a whole, has lost track of the lineage of each tribe, God has always known exactly who belongs to each tribe and where they are. Rev 7:5-8
14. This is a group of 144,000 pure Jewish men. They have not been “defiled by women.” Rev 14:4
15. All 144,000 of these “servants of God” are “virgins”. Rev 14:4

16. All 144,000 are truthful and not deceitful. John records that there is no “guile” in them. Rev 14:5
17. These “servants of God” are characterized as having been approved by God and that “they are without fault before the throne of God.” Rev 14:5
18. These men follow Jesus the Lamb wherever he goes. Rev 14:4
19. After they were sealed, at some point in the future they stand with Jesus on Mt. Sion. Rev 14:1
20. A voice from heaven, characterized as sounding like a “voice of many waters” or the “voice of a great thunder” approves of the presence of the 144,000 with Jesus. Rev 14:2

21. Accompaniment is then provided by harpers, or possibly a voice which sounded like harpers, on their harps to this choir of 144,000. Rev 14:2
22. All of the 144,000 sing a “new song” unknown to others Rev 14:3
23. No one other than this group of men can learn this “new song”. Rev 14:3
24. They sang this new song before a special group: before the throne, the four beasts, and the elders who still appear to be in heaven. Rev 14:3, 5
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2826
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Jericho on Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:31 am

The 144,000 is a symbolic number of redeemed drawn from all peoples, not simply the Jews."


Translation: The Bible doesn't say what it says it says.
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 5076
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:59 am

Ready1 wrote:In my opinion, the dragon of Revelation 12 is a great example of this. It is a symbol because scripture indicates it is a symbol and the word then goes on to explain who the dragon is.


Yes, I agree with you. This is the sort of thing I look for to know I have Biblical authority to interpret something as a symbol.

Much love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 14156
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby bchandler on Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:42 am

I believe what we are seeing with the 144,000 are Gods preparation of his witnesses to the Jews. Remember, it is written that all of Israel will be saved. It is written that Jesus will not return until Israel declares that blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Are these e only people sealed? I don't think so... But these are those sealed of the house of Israel, and sent out to do exploits and convert the unbelieving Jews to their messiah.

All who have received the Holy Spirit are sealed. I have experienced something that I could only describe as a seal being drawn on my forehead during a prayer and praise session.

I think people get to wound up about the 144,000, and jealous in some way. But, what these men are experiencing is conversion, in dwelling, and baptism with the Holy Spirit. In order for them to go out and convert Israel.

They are receiving what all believers have already received.

In addition, we are told that the saints will do exploits also. As evil abounds, God will counter this with an outpouring of spiritual power to his saints. This is what I see in scripture.
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
User avatar
bchandler
 
Posts: 4138
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:22 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:18 pm

bchandler wrote:what these men are experiencing is conversion, in dwelling, and baptism with the Holy Spirit. In order for them to go out and convert Israel.

They are receiving what all believers have already received.


Yes, I think so also!

:grin:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 14156
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Ready1 on Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:47 pm

I rather suspect that there will also be a physical visual component to the "sealing" as well, or there would be no reason to mention a specific location (forehead) or what the "seal" is (the name of the Lamb's Father). I'll be willing to be corrected by the Lord when the time comes, though... :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2826
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Mark F on Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:26 pm

Sonbeam,
I'm with Mark S, bchandler, ready1, and Jericho on this. I read his reasons that you referenced and find I disagree with his line of thinking. I believe there is a clear distinction in the character and destiny of Israel and the Church.

Also to take the text seriously you read it as any other, the Scripture is clear when symbolism as such is intended.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:59 pm

Mark F wrote:Sonbeam,
I'm with Mark S, bchandler, ready1, and Jericho on this. I read his reasons that you referenced and find I disagree with his line of thinking. I believe there is a clear distinction in the character and destiny of Israel and the Church.

Also to take the text seriously you read it as any other, the Scripture is clear when symbolism as such is intended.


Sorry I haven't been able to get back to you on this Mark F. Been really busy the last few days.
Will try to tomorrow.
Last edited by Sonbeam on Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:40 pm

Mark F wrote:Sonbeam,

I'm with Mark S, bchandler, ready1, and Jericho on this. .


Yes Mark F, I am aware that all of you hold to the dispensational view regarding Israel, and I respect that. But obviously, I do not hold the same view.

Since the book of Revelation is full of symbolic/figurative language, I hold, for the most part, to the allegorical interpretation on most passages. Always based on the understanding that Jesus Christ is the ultimate interpreter of all scripture—in His own Words while He walked this earth and in His Word as given to His apostles through the Holy Spirit, particularly in regards to salvation.

Why in regards to salvation?

Because the whole thrust of the history of man from its inception, the purpose for which God created man, has been to bring to Himself a people with whom to share His Love and Grace for all eternity.`

So here’s how I see the following passage in that context:

Rev 7
4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


If we take this verse literally, all these people that are sealed are/have to be Israelites/Jewish at some time or another.

But here are some scriptures that reveal ethnicity has nothing to do with redemption/salvation.

In speaking to some Jews, Jesus said:

John 8

39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.


Speaking to Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council, Jesus said to him:

John 3
 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 


And in John 6:63 Jesus reaffirms vs 6 above.

63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.


So being of Jewish flesh could not gain Nicodemus entrance to the kingdom.

Then the Holy Spirit through Paul, really “fleshed” this out in Galatians 3: :wink:

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.



There is more to be said on the physical “purity” of these 144,000 as written in Rev 14. But this is already a long post and I apologize. If your eyes glaze over I’ll understand. :grin:

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:56 pm

Here is the other passage in Rev 14 that references the 144,000:

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virginsThey follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


If we take verse 4 literally, it doesn’t align with what God’s Word says about the process of salvation, specifically with the gospel of Christ.

Under the New Covenant, believers are not under Law. A believer in the Son of God, becomes blameless the minute God births him/her of His Spirit.

Therefore, to exalt men for remaining “virgins” (in the flesh no less) has got nothing to do with “being blameless” in the eyes of God.

This is the reason the words in this passage have to be symbolic language representative of all the saints redeemed by faith in the Son of God through the new birth in the Spirit.


:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:58 pm

Sonbeam wrote:If we take verse 4 literally, it doesn’t align with what God’s Word says about the process of salvation, specifically with the gospel of Christ.


Sonbeam wrote:Under the New Covenant, believers are not under Law. A believer in the Son of God, becomes blameless the minute God births him/her of His Spirit.


Sonbeam wrote:This is the reason the words in this passage have to be symbolic language representative of all the saints redeemed by faith in the Son of God through the new birth in the Spirit.


Spot on Sonbeam!

:a3:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2525
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Mark F on Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:32 am

Sonbeam wrote:Here is the other passage in Rev 14 that references the 144,000:

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virginsThey follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


If we take verse 4 literally, it doesn’t align with what God’s Word says about the process of salvation, specifically with the gospel of Christ.

Under the New Covenant, believers are not under Law. A believer in the Son of God, becomes blameless the minute God births him/her of His Spirit.

Therefore, to exalt men for remaining “virgins” (in the flesh no less) has got nothing to do with “being blameless” in the eyes of God.

This is the reason the words in this passage have to be symbolic language representative of all the saints redeemed by faith in the Son of God through the new birth in the Spirit.


:blessyou:


This clearly not a doctrinal statement concerning salvation, this is clearly speaking of 144,000 Jewish men. How ever do you get the idea this is speaking of the requirement of every believer for salvation?

The word defiled here means they were not guilty of illicit sexual relations which cannot include the marriage bed, Paul stated in Hebrews 13:4  "Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge."
The word for virgin is in the masculine form as well. Implying they were pure and to include married men who have not had illicit relations is not outside this verses meaning.

How can Paul say this about the Corinthians? 2Co 11:2  "For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

There are many things in Scripture that need a broader understanding and not applying them as "rules of salvation". This verse is a general statement of their standing, not an all encompassing requirement for their salvation.
Edit to add: It is more of a sovereign election statement than salvation.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:10 pm

Mark F

Please take another look at Rev 14 and the words I've highlighted that without a doubt relate to the process of salvation:

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered asfirstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


sonbeam

------------------
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby bchandler on Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:00 pm

Son beam,

The words you highlighted actually make the case that these men are SAVED by belief in Jesus. Literally!

That they are literal first fruits of the salvation of the Jews by belief in Jesus. Literally!

That their work is Literally the presentation of the gospel to Israel in the last days... So that all of Israel might be saved.
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
User avatar
bchandler
 
Posts: 4138
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:22 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:13 am

bchandler wrote:Son beam,

The words you highlighted actually make the case that these men are SAVED by belief in Jesus. Literally!


Oh I don't doubt that BC, though the phrase "belief in Jesus" is not there. But there is no other way to be saved except by faith.

This is why we cannot take the 144,000 number literally, but as a figurative/symbolic number that represents all the saints, the body of Christ.

Why can't we take the number literally?

Because of Rev 4:14a that literally says in describing these "men" that they kept the Law.

4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. 


Salvation is not by ethnicity or moral purity, which no one, male or female, can achieve. Salvation is not by keeping the Law. I've already cited scriptures on this. But here's one that says it very plainly:

Gal 3:11

Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”



bchandler wrote:

That they are literal first fruits of the salvation of the Jews by belief in Jesus. Literally!

That their work is Literally the presentation of the gospel to Israel in the last days... So that all of Israel might be saved.


Are there scriptures that literally can attest to your two statements above BC?


sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Mark F on Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:38 am

Salvation is not by ethnicity or moral purity, which no one, male or female, can achieve. Salvation is not by keeping the Law. I've already cited scriptures on this.


Sonbeam,
Of coarse it is not a requirement, but that does not mean God cannot select some with those characteristics.
Why can't this be literal? Is it immoral for God to save 144,000 Jews out of the tribes of Israel, which is out of all the people of the world?

So this is a statement that God will do this, it does not imply no one else is saved, it just is describing a select group that God sovereignly chooses to save out of mankind at a particular point in time. Your argument is that we are saying this then applies to every act of God in saving men and that is not what we are saying.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 811
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby bchandler on Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:18 pm

Sonbeam,

Being first and foremost Jews, of course they kept the law. But, in order to be redeemed, they would have to have come to faith in Jesus. We are all purchased with the price of the blood of Jesus.

The scriptures you posted plainly describe Jews who kept the law, who had come to be saved by faith in Jesus, not the law.

If as you say, they kept the law, then this would not be symbolic of the church in general. The church in general doesn't keep the law, as they are free from it... Just as these men would be after coming to faith in Jesus... Regardless of their previous law keeping.
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
User avatar
bchandler
 
Posts: 4138
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:22 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: The 144,000 all men?

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:08 pm

Mark F and BChandler,

I find no supporting scriptures that corroborate the dispensational doctrine that you and others on this thread have expressed on the 144,000 men.

The following scriptures speak of a Jewish remnant destined to be saved.

Paul quotes the prophet Isaiah in Rom 9:27

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.


And he says the following in Rom 11-5

5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.


However, no number is mentioned as to how many Israelis make up that remnant. But again, this is really immaterial since ethnicity has no bearing on salvation.

We all agree that salvation is through faith in Christ.

But do we realize that at the point when the Holy Spirit seals (has sealed) the faith of those Israelis, they cease to be Israelis/men in their spirit?

Why? Because they are born again of the Spirit of God!

Remember this verse?

John 1:12-13
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


And God who is Spirit has no ethnic background so neither do His Saints. :wink:

This is why Paul, by the Holy Spirit, could say:

Gal 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


However, unless we look at/examine the underlying basis or root this doctrine and other doctrines regarding Israel spring from, the passages on the 144,000 will continue to be taken literally by many.

But that is for another thread, some other time.

:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas


Return to General Bible Study & Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest