Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:42 pm

A Rain-Forrest.

The more trees, the more rain;
The more rain, the more trees;
The more trees, the more rain;
The more rain, the more trees;
...
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:48 am

keithareilly wrote:Hi Mark,

You think the cyclic behavior I described lacks logic and reason therefore the conclusions cannot be true.

Here is an example of God's cyclic behavior.

Matthew 13:12
"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.


Not so.

It's not a matter of behavior, it's an issue of logic and reasoning.

And even this passage above doesn't actually describe a cyclical behavior. Your next example, the rain and the trees, does.

But physical behavior in nature is not the same thing as the rules of logic and reason in thought.

Cyclical processes may be true, such as the rivers run to the sea, then return again to their place, and run to the sea again, yet the sea is never full.

Reasoning is a different animal.

It's a fully different thing to say that you are at the same time both a slave to sin and free from sin. It's like saying your are both good and evil, beautiful and ugly, light and dark, black and white, approved and rejected, each both at the same time.

It just doesn't hold true.

Your are good.
Your flesh is evil.
Your are approved.
Your flesh is rejected.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:33 am

mark s wrote:Hi Keith,

I'm curious, it seems like you're not responding to my objection towards the circular reasoning, and I'm wondering how clear I am being.

Could you restate to me in your own words what my objection is?

Much love!
Mark


I'd like to return to this. I think it may be important. Do you know what I'm asking for here?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:57 pm

Mark,

You quoted this as being circular in reasoning.
. . . so if people do not understand the truth, [then] they are not going to experience the freedom we are promised and as a result they are not able to stop being slaves to sin and therefore cannot stop sinning and because they cannot stop sinning for lack of knowledge, they [then] deny we have been set free from enslavement to sin.


I have re-examined the statement. It is not circular.

Mark wrote ...
I'm talking about the line of reasoning that says we are slaves to sin if we think we are, whether we are or not.


In the upper quote I did not say we are slaves to sin if we think we are. I said we are slaves to sin because we do not yet know the truth. I also said because many do not experience freedom from enslavement to sin due to their lack of knowledge, many conclude being set free from sin is not part of our salvation.

This is consistent with John 8:31-32
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Those who lack the truth, will not be free. Consequently, many, who are not experiencing freedom, wrongly conclude being free is not part of our salvation.

Edited for Clarity
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:03 am

. . . so if people do not understand the truth, they are not going to experience the freedom we are promised and as a result they are not able to stop being slaves to sin and therefore cannot stop sinning and because they cannot stop sinning for lack of knowledge, they deny we have been set free from enslavement to sin.


Perhaps I may yet be misunderstanding you. That's why I like to ask these sorts of questions.

When you say "they" and "we" in the above sentence, I understand you to be talking about believers who understand, and are set free, "we", and believers who do not understand, and are not set free from sin, "they", is that correct?

Thank you!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:32 pm

Mark,

Yes, but it could all be just "we".

Freedom from enslavement to sin is part of the Salvation for all of us believers.
The seed that falls on the rocky soil may not be able to continue in Christ's word long enough to experience freedom from sin. The seed that falls among the thorns may have to struggle longer and harder to survive and outgrow the thorns before experiencing that freedom. The key is: to continue in Christ word.

John 8:31-32
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Salvation is multifaceted and we do not experience all of our salvation immediately.
1) Christ paid for our sins on the cross, But we do not experience the benefits of that until we believe
2) We are created anew with the law written on our hearts and minds. When Paul said it is no longer I who sin, he was describing a change in him that took place at some point in time. In Luke 14:26 Jesus says we must hate our life in order to be His disciple. Some people hate their lives long before they hear the word of God.
3) After we have continued in the Christ's Word, which implies a lapse of time after first believing, we learn the truth and that truth sets us free. Just because a believer has not yet continued in the word long enough to know the truth, does not mean that person is any less saved than the person who has learned the truth. It just means they have not reached the point to experience an aspect of salvation that is not immediately available. In order to continue in Christ word, one must be His disciple; that means there exists believers who are indeed continuing in Christ's word but have not yet learned the truth that sets them free. These believers are no less saved than those who know the truth. They have just not reached a certain level of maturity. They are still saved and need not live in fear for Christ is teaching them and has promised them they will experience that freedom from enslavement to sin.
4) At some point in the future we will be clothed with the incorruptible/immortal. But that is not during this lifetime.

1 Tim 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Last edited by keithareilly on Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:36 pm

Then you are saying what I thought, that we can be both slaves to and freed from sin all at the same time.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:14 pm

Mark,

I think a better way to say it is. As we work out our salvation, we come to understand we have been completely freed from enslavement to sin. It is like looking back on life and saying I wish I knew then what I know now.

When I started this topic I wanted to address the differences between law and faith.

Romans 10:
5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

When we worry if we are going to go to Heaven when we die, we are looking at things from the perspective of LAW.
When we fear we will be condemned because we have sinned we are focusing on the LAW.

When we accept that we have been saved, even though we have not yet experienced all aspect of the salvation made available to us, and recognize that the phrase "working out our salvation" is about struggling to understanding our salvation and discerning truth from lies, instead of trying to make sure we make it to Heaven, then we are focusing on salvation by Faith instead of salvation by works of the law. Ironically, as we struggle to learn and see the truth and overcome doubts and deceptions placed before us, then we are able to reign over our flesh and fulfill the requirements of law written on our hearts and minds by actually using our flesh to accomplish the good written on our hearts and minds. As we rein over our flesh, causing our flesh to accomplish, here and now, the good works we desire in our hearts and minds, our faith is perfected. We express the good that is in our hearts and minds through our actions, and in so doing, we change the reality of this world by accomplishing good instead of evil.

Our salvation transforms us into: The good man, [who], brings out of his good treasure, what is good.

Matt 12:35
"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

I cannot think of a better summary of the results of being saved than transforming from the evil man to the good man.
.. Our sins are forgiven
.. The law of God is written on our hearts and minds
.. We are freed from enslavement to sin so we can accomplish the good that has been written on our hearts and minds
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby shorttribber on Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:10 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mark,

I think a better way to say it is. As we work out our salvation, we come to understand we have been completely freed from enslavement to sin. It is like looking back on life and saying I wish I knew then what I know now.

When I started this topic I wanted to address the differences between law and faith.

Romans 10:
5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

When we worry if we are going to go to Heaven when we die, we are looking at things from the perspective of LAW.
When we fear we will be condemned because we have sinned we are focusing on the LAW.

When we accept that we have been saved, even though we have not yet experienced all aspect of the salvation made available to us, and recognize that the phrase "working out our salvation" is about struggling to understanding our salvation and discerning truth from lies, instead of trying to make sure we make it to Heaven, then we are focusing on salvation by Faith instead of salvation by works of the law. Ironically, as we struggle to learn and see the truth and overcome doubts and deceptions placed before us, then we are able to reign over our flesh and fulfill the requirements of law written on our hearts and minds by actually using our flesh to accomplish the good written on our hearts and minds. As we rein over our flesh, causing our flesh to accomplish, here and now, the good works we desire in our hearts and minds, our faith is perfected. We express the good that is in our hearts and minds through our actions, and in so doing, we change the reality of this world by accomplishing good instead of evil.

Our salvation transforms us into: The good man, [who], brings out of his good treasure, what is good.

Matt 12:35
"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

I cannot think of a better summary of the results of being saved than transforming from the evil man to the good man.
.. Our sins are forgiven
.. The law of God is written on our hearts and minds
.. We are freed from enslavement to sin so we can accomplish the good that has been written on our hearts and minds

:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:56 am

keithareilly wrote:Mark,

I think a better way to say it is. As we work out our salvation, we come to understand we have been completely freed from enslavement to sin. It is like looking back on life and saying I wish I knew then what I know now.


Hi Keith,

This I agree with.

There seems to be a disconnect in our faith. We read that we are free from sin, but we don't believe it. When we believe it, we can enjoy the benefit of it.

It's like standing in an unlocked prison cell, but not walking out because you think the door is still locked. But that doesn't change that you are free.

Only believe.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:58 am

Keith, what exactly IS the Law of God?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:34 am

Luke 10:25-28
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

Who asked this question? A LAWYER!
THE LAW must be on our hearts and minds in order for us to love. We must also be free from enslavement to sin for that love to be expressed through actions of our flesh.


We are saved because
1) our sins have been forgiven.
2) The LAW is written on our hearts and minds
3) we are freed from enslavement to sin so that we may Love God and our neighbors.

Our very salvation through Jesus Christ is what enables us to meet the requirements of the LAW.
Do not misunderstand this: We are saved first. Then, after we are saved, can we fulfill the requirements of the LAW.
Being saved comes first, fulfilling the LAW comes afterwards.
Fulfilling the LAW is evidence we have already been saved. It is not a prerequisite to become saved.

Keith
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:17 am

When you say, "LAW", are you referring to that which is contained in the Books of Moses? The Torah?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby shorttribber on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:16 pm

mark s wrote:When you say, "LAW", are you referring to that which is contained in the Books of Moses? The Torah?

Much love!
Mark

:snack:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby shorttribber on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:19 pm

Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:28 pm

shorttribber wrote:Ps 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.


Hi ST,

Is this to be an answer?

I'm interested in the specific question . . .

When Keith speaks of the Law being written on our hearts, is he referring to the Books of Moses, the Torah? The Torah is written on our hearts, and this is the Law we do?

Is that what is being said here?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby shorttribber on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:53 pm

I would say it is the Law of God, and that Includes the Torah, in part.....the Essential parts...not the Ceremonial parts.

The Essential parts of it that Christ Fulfills IN us.

In the most basic sense...Love.....Love IS the Law of God.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:42 pm

According to James, you can't break the law into pieces. If you break one, you are guilty of all. You become a 'lawbreaker'.
How would you reconcile this to your understanding that part of the law is written on our hearts, and part is not?


What exactly of the Law do you consider to be ceremonial, and therefore abrogated?


What is non-essential?


Where in Scripture will I read that these are abrogated while those are not? Essential and not?


I don't read of portions of the Law being abrogated, I read in Romans 6-8 a detailed explaination of how I am dead to the Law. Not that it has been written on my heart, rather, that I am dead to it. Dead.

While I read in 2 Corinthians 2-5 an equally detailed explaination of how there is a new law written on my heart, not the letters on stone, but on my heart. But that which is written is not the Torah, it is Christ.

And lest you say they were the same, Jesus did in fact abrogate one part of the Torah, in declaring all foods clean.

Yes, this is the answer that fits with the legalists of why it is I can eat shrimp. So there you have it. I can eat shrimp because . . .

A) I am not under law but under grace, and all foods are good if received with thanksgiving and prayer (esp. important for the 'cockroach of the sea')

. . . or . . .

B) While the Torah forbade eating shrimp, Jesus abrogated the dietary restrictions, therefore, one can both eat shrimp, the abrogated portion, while still maintaining a strict adherance to the Torah.

Thinking about it . . .

Paul basically maintained that he kept the law as good as can be. He said so far as having the righteousness that is by the Law, he was a Pharisee. Do you suppose he was right? Not that he was a Pharisee, that he kept the Law so wonderfully? This man, who lived and breathed Judaism, this man, who declared, to demonstrate his zeal under the old covenant, that he even persecuted the church. Was he right? Did he actually keep the law?

We have our answer. Paul acknowledged that even learning what the law was produced so much more sin. His efforts were futile. And he later acknowledged, and invited us to follow in his footsteps, that he kept the law among some, and not among others.

Do we keep the law? Do any of us? I can't imagine that being the case.

But, again, when you consider how much of the law cannot be kept, it simply becomes impossible. Everything to do with the temple, everything to do with the health care and building maintenance, the entire funding system, the rules of war, there are more I could mention, and also the Original Intent of the Law.

A covenant between God, and a chosen nation of people, agreed to between He and them at Mount Horeb. If the children of Israel do these things, God will do those things. At the end of the day, it was a way to keep them safe until their true Savior arrived. It gave them a way to both address their sins by atonement, and to prevent a fatal excess of sin as a nation. This allowed Isael to avoid the complete destruction by God's judgment as experienced by other nations, such as the one's they replaced, whose sins they were committing.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby shorttribber on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:51 pm

I will answer all of your questions with few words mark.
It is the Letter of the Law that we are dead to...yet alive BY the Spirit of the Law.

The Letter of the Law is Dead, the Spirit of that Law Gives Life.

Of course though, you and many believe that the Letter of the Law will be resurrected when a New Temple is built.
But we Are the Last and Only True Temple.

The Letter of the Law is dead.

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ is the Only Law Alive.

Alive Forever.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:00 pm

Hi ST,

You are getting into a different direction here, and I don't want to lose track of the ball.

I'm still interested in the questions of:

Is the law that is written on our hearts the Torah? - (Keith?)

And where can I find in Scripture which laws are ceremonial, and can be ignored, and which are, uh, for lack of a better word, um, which laws are mandatory?

So anyway, it sounds like you are a no on the Torah question, is that right?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:00 pm

Just to remember to say . . . Jesus changed the Law . . . but Jesus does not change.

:grin:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:48 pm

mark s wrote:When you say, "LAW", are you referring to that which is contained in the Books of Moses? The Torah?

Much love!
Mark


Matt 22:35-40
35One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Matt 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

These two commandments are the entire LAW.
Everything else, like: "do not murder", "do not commit adultery" are a subset OR manifestations of these two commandments.

I do not know how to be clearer on this.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:50 pm

mark s wrote:Just to remember to say . . . Jesus changed the Law . . . but Jesus does not change.

:grin:

No Jesus did not change the LAW.

Matthew 5:18
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:18 pm

He made all foods clean. Law was changed.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby shorttribber on Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:11 pm

mark s wrote:He made all foods clean. Law was changed.

He brought the Law to fulfillment, including that portion of it, in His own time according to His Sovereign will.

The Mosaic Law was to serve, Serve as Types and Shadows of Living Spiritual Principals and Realities. The Letter, or Types were for a time and purpose mark...The Letter is Fulfilled, and Fully Explained by the Spirit of the Living Word.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:41 am

What was not clean, became clean.

But you who would keep the law, do you not know what the Law says? The same one who commanded do not murder also commanded the dedication of the firstborn with animal sacrifice. Do you do that?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:42 am

keithareilly wrote:
mark s wrote:When you say, "LAW", are you referring to that which is contained in the Books of Moses? The Torah?

Much love!
Mark


Matt 22:35-40
35One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Matt 22:40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

These two commandments are the entire LAW.
Everything else, like: "do not murder", "do not commit adultery" are a subset OR manifestations of these two commandments.

I do not know how to be clearer on this.

Keith


OK, so that's a "no" on the Torah being that Law?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby shorttribber on Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:21 pm

mark s wrote:What was not clean, became clean.

But you who would keep the law, do you not know what the Law says? The same one who commanded do not murder also commanded the dedication of the firstborn with animal sacrifice. Do you do that?

Much love!
Mark


How is it that you do not understand the Fulfillment of the type and shadow of the clean and unclean mark?

28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Can you not see that the type and shadow (the Letter of the Law) Passed away, and the Spirit gives life to the Word of God and His commandments?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:00 pm

In all honesty, ST, I have a difficult time understanding much of what you write, as it seems non-responsive in a direct manner. I'm certain you are simply trying to be clear.

My only concern in this is to maintain the distinction between following the Law of Christ, that is Jesus living in me, conforming my live to His, however it may be that Jesus wants to do that, and endeavoring to pattern one's life after the Law and the Prophets, or seeking to see that particular set of Law defining yourself. In that is legalism, in Jesus is liberty.

Our legalism limits our cooperation with Jesus in trying to do His thing in us. We think we know based our understanding of the Law, and those we select for ourselves, never the whole set.

Much love!
Mark

Oh, and lest I become of the same, yes, I do understand about types and shadows. There are very certain particular places in Scripture that these are mentioned, although I know people who mention more than I see in the Bible. But it's important to know those that are there, and what they mean. Of course, the Bible defines each for us so there need not be any question.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:02 pm

Also, ST, one more question, if I may, concerning the Law, do you then agree that to break one makes a person guilty of all, and therefore you cannot separate some out from the others?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby shorttribber on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:25 pm

mark s wrote:Oh, and lest I become of the same, yes, I do understand about types and shadows. There are very certain particular places in Scripture that these are mentioned, although I know people who mention more than I see in the Bible. But it's important to know those that are there, and what they mean. Of course, the Bible defines each for us so there need not be any question.

The whole of Hebrews chapters 8-10 are clear enough to me that the entire Mosaic system {Sacrificial system/Law of Moses} was a type and shadow mark.
I haven't much time to continue this discussion, but will say only that types and shadows are very much throughout the Entire Old testament in a general sense. I'm not the least bit convinced that each type and shadow that exists in scripture must be clearly defined by the immediate text in which that type, shadow or pattern is found.

blessings.

I do think the type and pattern you personally mentioned though was clearly answered and defined by Peter.

One sin is the breaking of ALL the Law mark, thus the need for Christ...that is sure though also.

blessings :hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:28 am

One sin is the breaking of ALL the Law mark


Hi ST, Thank you for making your view clear for me. We are in agreement, then, that if you break one, you break all.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:45 am

Hi Keith,

Joining late in this discussion - hope you don't mind? :mrgreen:

You wrote a few things that I have questions about:

keithareilly wrote:When we accept that we have been saved, even though we have not yet experienced all aspect of the salvation made available to us, and recognize that the phrase "working out our salvation" is about struggling to understanding our salvation and discerning truth from lies, instead of trying to make sure we make it to Heaven, then we are focusing on salvation by Faith instead of salvation by works of the law.


Hummm.... so you feel that the phrase "working out our salvation" is about "struggling to understand our salvation" verses or "instead of trying to make sure we make it to Heaven?"

So, what if we understand our salvation - but the struggle is dealing with daily sin that also comes by way of Spiritual Warfare - and since we recognize it, through prayer and with the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to avoid and/or overcome temptation that can lead to sin?

You also wrote:

keithareilly wrote: Ironically, as we struggle to learn and see the truth and overcome doubts and deceptions placed before us, then we are able to reign over our flesh and fulfill the requirements of law written on our hearts and minds by actually using our flesh to accomplish the good written on our hearts and minds. As we rein over our flesh, causing our flesh to accomplish, here and now, the good works we desire in our hearts and minds, our faith is perfected. We express the good that is in our hearts and minds through our actions, and in so doing, we change the reality of this world by accomplishing good instead of evil.


Keith - I have to very respectfully wholeheartedly disagree with the aforementioned statements that you have made regarding salvation.

First - you are given believers too much credit for having the power "to reign over our flesh" regardless of whether or not the "requirements of the law" is written in our hearts and minds. This appears to be contrary to Scripture.

Here is what Scripture has to say about the "FLESH":

Romans 7:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.


The aforementioned is written by the Apostle Paul - who most certainly had the "requirements of the law" written in his heart.

[b]Romans 3:10-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10) as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
11) There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12) All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”


And finally this:

Romans 10:4 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes


In closing - in understanding Salvation, I know that there is absolutely NOTHING good in me. Because I believe in Christ and trust Him as my Lord and Savior, it is my Faith in Him that saves me.[b] And this same Faith is not of my own, but a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8-9) I put no confidence in my flesh (Philippians 3:3).
Even the good works that I "think" that I do comes from the Holy Spirit.

Scripture tells us that our "works are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). When I die, I know that I am going to Heaven. It's not because of the good things that I do, but because I believe and have put my faith and trust in Him - and that Only. His Word says I'm saved and sealed until the Day of Redemption. (Ephesians 4:30-32)

I must say that I am always very frightened of a Salvation by Works theory (not saying that you are mentioning this), and I am also frightened by those who feel that they can live a perfect life; perform good works without the assistance of the Holy Spirit; and believe that they must do good works in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. I have found many people who believe this way. Some are often high minded, meaning that they have a very high spiritual opinion of themselves - and expect others to think, or feel the same; they judge others in a non-scriptural fashion; live double-lives; very hypocritical; and are very easily swayed by sensationalism to include deep persuasion by very charismatic leaders and speakers - to the point of being delusional and fooled about Salvation according to Scripture.

Jesus said "Believe in Him" and "ALL those who call on the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved." (Romans 10:13)

Romans 10:13 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:43 am

Mr. Baldy

Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

This topic is about encouraging my brothers and sisters who, like me, lose hope because we do not always win each battle. Personally, I have been losing some battles pretty regularly and I needed hope that I will not forever lose these battles. I know the truth. But sometimes, I get deceived, sometimes, I am tired of fighting, sometimes, I don't see it coming. And sometimes I give in.

God has given each of us, who has been born again, the ability to prevent sin from reigning in our flesh. I needed to say it. I needed to fight back harder on the lies and deceptions that want me to accept defeat and let sin have its way.
No! I have been granted victory and I shall achieve it.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:32 pm

Hi Keith,

I agree with you completely that we have power over sin. And also that we unfortunately do not always use it.

There's a place in Leviticus 26 as God is outlining blessings and cursings, and at the end of the cursings comes the biggest of all, expulsion from the land. And God tells them that it would be for failing to keep the Sabbaths that they would be exiled to their enemies.

For all the reasons it could be, that would be the one, says God, and so much time later, that was the reason, when they were sent away to Babylon. They were working too much. They would not rest. They would not let the land rest. Sabbath is not for work, it is for rest.

Sabbath is, of course, Jesus' shadow. We don't even know for certain what the real sabbath day is, not anymore. Some say they do. I've heard about 5 schools of thought on it.

But we know for certain that Jesus finished everything.

And when He knew that all had been accomplished . . . He died. It is finished. All of it.

And as He stands in victory, sin's curse has lost it's grip on me, for I am His, and He is mine . . .
In Christ Alone - Keith & Kristyn Getty

What if Jesus has done all the work in us that is needed to do? We simply need to watch for it to work itself into our lives?

What if when the difficult thoughts come, the testings, the temptations, we can simply fix our eyes on Jesus, turn the focus of our minds to Him, and give up? Tell Him, it's happening again, it's at me again, I can't make it go away, please deliver me! I pray something like that sometimes.

And what if when we are brought low by them, when we do not overcome, we simply reassure ourselves, that our Lord Jesus HAS overcome. Already overcome. Promised to make my life pure. And make it pure He shall!

And stand up, I love that verse, He's the lifter of my head. He is the One Who lifts my head. I think it's the NLT that says, He holds my head up high! I love it. It's what my Father wants. He wants me to have my back straight, shoulders square, head high (well, I'm getting old, so within those confines), it's what you feel inside.

Our Maker is pleased to see us at rest, trusting Him. For an example, He let the Chaldeans destroy how many 1000's of lives? I'm guessing He's serious. He seriously wants us to rest. OK, now I'm just preaching to myself so I'll stop.

But He said, Work out what He is working in. And what He is working into you is both the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him.

In the words for Keith Green:

Just keep doing your best, and pray that it's blest, and let Jesus take care of the rest.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:27 pm

Thanks Mark,

I appreciate your encouragement.

I have been thinking about this since my last post.

But Moses' hands were heavy. Then they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other. Thus his hands were steady until the sun set.


Keith
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:54 pm

Mr. Baldy.


After saying ...
Romans 7:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.


Paul went on to say ...

Romans 7:24-25
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Over the years, I have come to understand many people do not recognize that we have been rescued from the situation Paul describes in Romans 7:18. Who rescued us from that situation? God, through Jesus Christ our Lord, has rescued us from that situation.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:54 pm

Mr. Baldy,

I must say that I am always very frightened of a Salvation by Works theory (not saying that you are mentioning this), and I am also frightened by those who feel that they can live a perfect life; perform good works without the assistance of the Holy Spirit; and believe that they must do good works in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. I have found many people who believe this way. Some are often high minded, meaning that they have a very high spiritual opinion of themselves - and expect others to think, or feel the same; they judge others in a non-scriptural fashion; live double-lives; very hypocritical; and are very easily swayed by sensationalism to include deep persuasion by very charismatic leaders and speakers - to the point of being delusional and fooled about Salvation according to Scripture.


I am not certain how to respond to this.

At times, people have mistakenly conclude I have certain views. Yet, you are not saying I have or have expressed the views you say you have fear about. What I have expressed in this thread is we can now do the good works we were once prevented from doing. I have said we can do them because we are saved. Good works are a consequence of being saved, not a prerequisite for being saved. This is the third of three threads. We have discussed forgiveness and its extent. We have discussed being born again; entering the Kingdom of Heaven through water and Spirit. And we have discussed legal perspectives and faith perspectives.

Have you considered that my perspective on salvation as: Being transformed from the evil man who brings forth evil from his evil treasure into the good man who brings forth good from his good treasures describes my own life? Am I adamant about what I believe? Absolutely. My life is evidence this is true. And I want other believers to know they can be the good man who brings forth good from his treasures. You spent your life serving the country in one form or another. Your life is evidence you are a better man than am I. This is likely true of everyone on this board; even those I disagree with most often. I know what I was; and I won't tell you or anyone else because you will hate me as I have hated my own life.

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not [n]hate ... yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

I hated me and my life because I could only do the evil I was enslaved to do. Now, I have been rescued from that body of death. Now I can do good even though that evil still wants me to do evil. Now, I can say "No!" and do good. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:58 pm

keithareilly wrote:Thanks Mark,

I appreciate your encouragement.

I have been thinking about this since my last post.

But Moses' hands were heavy. Then they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other. Thus his hands were steady until the sun set.


Keith


Take a sit for awhile . . .

:oldman:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:00 pm

I asked my wife one time if she ever thought about sharing her testimony at our church. Her reply was immediate, "Why would I want to do that?"

:lol:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby keithareilly on Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:09 pm

mark s wrote:I asked my wife one time if she ever thought about sharing her testimony at our church. Her reply was immediate, "Why would I want to do that?"

:lol:
:a3:
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:45 pm

keithareilly wrote:Your life is evidence you are a better man than am I.


Oh Nonsense!

Life is Individual. We all have our own burdens to bear and crosses to carry. Each one of them is unique to our very own way of dealing with the hardships of this life - through the Power of the Holy Spirit. No one is better than another. When we stand before Christ - we ALL (those who believe) will cast our crowns at His Feet. This proves that rewards, good works, and accomplishment in this life mean absolutely NOTHING.

Keith - when we All stand before God in Judgment, all I know is that He will look down at me - and as I finally view Him in ALL of His Glory; Majesty; and Power - He will have already had tremendous mercy on my worthless soul. As I stand there trying to behold ALL His Glory; Power; and Awesome Presence - He will reach down, wipe the ever flowing tears from my weeping eyes; and say: "Well Done, my good and faithful servant." He will say this to me, and to you - and to all who believe in Him. Not because we deserve it, or are worthy - but because of His Eternal Mercy for those whom He Foreknew by becoming a Living Sacrifice.
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Re: Scriptures: Perspectives, Legal and Faith

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:47 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
As I stand there trying to behold ALL His Glory; Power; and Awesome Presence - He will reach down, wipe the ever flowing tears from my weeping eyes; and say: "Well Done, my good and faithful servant." He will say this to me, and to you - and to all who believe in Him. Not because we deserve it, or are worthy - but because of His Eternal Mercy for those whom He Foreknew by becoming a Living Sacrifice.



Amen!! :itsgood:



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