How Much is Too Much?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Thu May 10, 2018 5:14 pm

From Shorttribber, Here.

If we stay or do not stay in any ministry because we do or don't agree on every point of doctrine, then none of us would fellowship anywhere.

What I want in this hour...I want most of all to be in the thick of the fight for souls...that's it, that's about all that matters to me right now.

God told me long ago....."You catch'm and I'll clean'm"!

Seems we can't accomplish much anymore when it comes to teaching and discipleship that doesn't divide us....we need a miracle from God!

Soon we're going to have one, until then, i'll stay in the fight for those in the Highways and Byways, and Compel them to Come In.


Hi Shorttribber,

By the sound if it, God has pointed you towards the ministry of evangelism. Jesus said He gave evangelists to the church to build it. I think that God guides us using both the written knowledge of His will, and by the desires He puts into us.

In my view, your desire towards evangelism is a good indicator of what God wants you to be doing.

For me, I believe God has given me a ministry to the redeemed, to encourage and teach. And, just like your words, it's about all I care about anymore. I so want for God to relieve me of my other duties in life, work, managing the home, I don't see these going away, so I rely on:

1 Peter 4:10-11 (ESV)
10 As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace : whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God; whoever serves, as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ. To him belong glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


So when I feel I don't have the time, don't have the energy, I trust the Lord. The words must be His. The strength must be His.

I'm already getting off track!!

:doh:

How much is too much?

How much doctrinal error is acceptable in my home church? How much poison is acceptable in a glass of milk?

And what is the impact of doctrinal error?

My pastor in his message last Sunday taught that we should reflect in our hearts to see if there is sin that needs to be repented of the next time we have a drought.

His intent is the best, I truly believe it.

We live in Southern California. It's a desert.

His words tell people that God blesses or curses His children based on their current behavior.

A simple, minor error?

Or, crippling to those who take in that message?

Meaningless to those who know better. But I know so many who do not. This is my heart. To make sure every word from my mouth brings grace to the hearer.

Every word out of my mouth is to dispense God's gift.

To bring people fully into God's Grace.

To understand the unfathomable depths and heights of His love.

Anything that's not it, isn't it.

There's another message being broadcast out there. Beth Moore personifies this in her message "The Outpouring". She teaches there will be, something like, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, bringing the church into this unified powerized second Pentecost kind of thing.

Not only are the signs and wonders coming, but they're going to be over the top, deceiving the whole world.

This message not only leads people towards the Harlot Church, but there's a more personal issue with the redeemed, in my view.

You don't have what you need to make as a Christian. There's some time coming when you're going to get the rest of what you need, this new spiritual empowerment, but you don't have it now, and ain't that too bad!

Again, crippling, in my opinion.

We have, right now, everything we need to share in God's nature, and to escape the corruption that is in the world because of the desires of the physical body.

Two simple errors, are they simple?

God will bless or curse you, His child, based on your current behavior.

And . . .

You do not have what is needed to live the sort of Christian life that Jesus meant when He said "abundant", and defined for us in His apostle's letters.

Why should you expect to receive more than God's occasional favor? Life becomes based on how good I am.

Law empowers sin.

Crippling!

I have a lot less problem with the rain/sin thing than I do with following someone who leads to the Harlot. But the rain/sin thing probably impacts more people.

I was inclined to write this from the quote above,

Seems we can't accomplish much anymore when it comes to teaching and discipleship that doesn't divide us....we need a miracle from God!


While the first is most certainly true - we cannot do it - and the second is true - we need a miracle from God - what I find missing is the fact that we already have that miracle.

The single shift of the tense of a verb, yet all of life is impacted.

What is your expectation of today?

Is it to spend the day walking in the spirit, living the resurrection life, maybe slipping briefly into the old ways momentarily, but quickly coming back from it, mostly just communing with God and receiving His peace and love as you reflect on certain Scriptures, singing spiritual songs, and finding how He knits everything together, things we would call "good" and "bad", but it's all just good, because we are His.

Or is it to spend the day frustrated, unfulfilled, worried about things, doing good, then sinking back into the morass of stresses and angst?

Somewhere in between?

What do you believe is possible in your life?

How much have we been affected by these little non-Scriptural ideas that seem to just keep perpetuating more and more out there?

And how much is too much?

Is it really true that we can't each be simply doing the ministry God gives to each of us, with unity? Isn't the disunity a work of the flesh, and isn't walking in the spirit possible?

We will always divide. But the Spirit never divides, only unifies.

But then, if we're constantly trying to figure out what God wants from us, and trying to do things hoping they are part of His will, pushing into where God does not lead us, but having to work work work to be better, more acceptable,

I just love what Jay Ross wrote the other day,

That we rest in Him and draw on his healing for us as we go forth as a better person in service for the Lord.


What happens when a group of believers functions in the way God intends for us to function?

For us, it's simply a matter of living in trust in Him at all times for all things. Simple, right?

:grin:

Then we do what He places before us to be done, we follow where our desires lead us, and He fulfills them. And we find that life becomes an amazing thing.

I'm a person whom God had convinced that this kind of amazing life is available to all believers right now, simply for taking God at His Word.


Take this passage, for instance, as exactly and completely, literally, true:

2 Peter 1:3-8 (ESV)
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness. And then God goes on to explain what He means.

Completely true. Yours in return for your trust.

He has given all we need. It comes to us through knowing Him. His commitment to us is effectual that we partake in His nature, since we've escaped from the corruption in the world.

And because these things are true, now this is what we are to do. Add to faith, virtue, and knowledge, and so on.

But we do it from a position of strength, the strength of His Spirit indwelling us with life. And that life grows, and matures. Not as a sinner trying to claw my way into sanctification. Because God has given His commitment, and has told me to trust, rest, be fruitful, and enjoy, be happy, be so very happy all the time, rejoice in the Lord always, and I say again: Rejoice!

Much love
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Thu May 10, 2018 10:32 pm

A lot of words to answer...but I will answer with very few words.

Then why aren't we doing that mark?

Why is it that not one Christian is doing that? I mean Completely doing that?

It's because you are expecting that each of those scriptures pertain to us Individually. And in a sense, they do.

Where they will actually find Complete Fulfillment though is as the Entire Body, as ONE Unified people.
I'm not interested in what Beth Moore has to say much, but I do care what God has said in His Word about Unity...Complete Unity in the Body of Christ.

Not a Form of Unity, or Part of Unity, Whole and Complete Unity, that's what Eph. 4 speaks of. Perfect Unity with the Father, as the Son is in Perfect Unity with the Father. 100%.

That will take a miracle. We must agree to disagree that you believe we have that miracle now, I say we don't yet.

But the time is coming that we will.

I've had a small taste of that kind of miraculous power and grace mark, and think you know what I'm referring to.....but I can tell you this from personal experience....it's does not occur without a miracle.

It is not a Natural daily walking in the Spirit kind of power, where we can take a tiny detour that displeases God and quickly bounce back......

What's coming is not currently available to us all, as much as we want it to be.....God is sovereign and I don't know why.

I guess I can't answer any more about it..............God will explain why later.

Right now we only know in part.....and that's a fact.

:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Thu May 10, 2018 10:59 pm

I'll give you one small example mark.....two scriptures to reconcile as to how they can or can't apply to us today....

john 16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 Cor13
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


I'll give you a hint, as to How Both these texts find fulfillment, that seem to be not in complete agreement with each other currently.

Eph 4
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect
man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


There is that Eph 4 text again mark. Yes, I know, it is understood so many different ways to so many different people about WHEN it should be fulfilled.

To me, it is plain by what is clearly written, that it absolutely Must occur before Christ Comes.

But there, in Eph 4, is the answer that joins and unifies the other two texts.

:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 8:22 am

Hi ST,

Agreed, I wrote far too many words!

Rule #6. No unnecessarily long posts that no one wants to read.


:eek:

Let me ask this one question.

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 (HCSB)

For though we live in the body, we do not wage war in an unspiritual way, since the weapons of our warfare are not worldly, but are powerful through God for the demolition of strongholds. We demolish arguments and every high-minded thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, taking every thought captive to obey Christ.


Does God want for us to take captive every thought to be obedient to Jesus?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The reason I ask is this.

Does God tell us to do things He has no intention of us being able to do?

And what of the believers through the centuries who will never have been able to partake of this "Latter days outpouring"? Were they simply consigned to lifetimes of frustration and failure? Does God tell us these things, things we want, things He commands, only to spin us around in circles chasing after what we can never have? Chasing after handfuls of wind?

“Everything is meaningless,” says the Teacher, “completely meaningless!”

What do people get for all their hard work under the sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth never changes. The sun rises and the sun sets, then hurries around to rise again. The wind blows south, and then turns north. Around and around it goes, blowing in circles. Rivers run into the sea, but the sea is never full. Then the water returns again to the rivers and flows out again to the sea. Everything is wearisome beyond description. No matter how much we see, we are never satisfied. No matter how much we hear, we are not content.

History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new. Sometimes people say, “Here is something new!” But actually it is old; nothing is ever truly new. We don’t remember what happened in the past, and in future generations, no one will remember what we are doing now."

Ecclesiastes 1:2-11 (NLT)

Isn't it that God has subjected creation to futility, meaninglessness (Romans 8), so that everything else, everything outside of God plan for us, that's what is meaningless? That which is done under the sun?

Everything has already been decided. It was known long ago what each person would be. So there’s no use arguing with God about your destiny. The more words you speak, the less they mean. So what good are they? In the few days of our meaningless lives, who knows how our days can best be spent? Our lives are like a shadow. Who can tell what will happen on this earth after we are gone?

Ecclesiastes 6:10-12 (NLT)

1And I know that whatever God does is final. Nothing can be added to it or taken from it. God’s purpose is that people should fear him. What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.

Ecclesiastes 3:14-15 (NLT)


God has made the entire creation and all of our efforts futile and meaningless, so that there is no true fulfillment in anything under the sun, only under heaven, only in what God is doing.

Has God made our lives as Christians equally futile? Or does He mean for us to live like the Bible describes? I am a man whom God has convinced that it is not futile. He wants me to live that life today, and I've asked Him to make it so. I'm looking forward to it.

Yesterday was good. He made it so.

The knowledge that God intends for me to take every thought captive to obedience to Christ, the knowledge that God has empowered me to do just that, this is the faith, the trust in Jesus that brings us into the grace in which we stand (Romans 5). And it is effectual.

I'm sorry! I find it so hard to write briefly!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby GodsStudent on Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 am

WOW !!! WOW !!! WOW !!!

There is so much here I can hardly fathom all the good stuff on this thread. I am at work and can't even finish reading the discussion, but Mark's initial post just blew my mind....the part I read through and to. I have to come back because I want to spend more time on this one. Powerful discussion here.

Immediately when I read the OP my thoughts went to the scripture I think about all the time....My people suffer from lack of knowledge......and suffer we do. Mark's succinct manner of showing HOW we suffer was outstanding. His first comments about a drought being tied to sin....this crippled my walk for many years, because I just didn't have the strength and will to fix all my sin and as a result my self esteem and confidence was shattered and I was a very depressed person. I had no freedom from anything and as a result, I lived in the prison of my mind and saw myself as a failure who would never be good enough for the Lord, even though I desired Him more than anything or anyone else. Desiring Him as I did didn't mean I could fix all my sins and live a perfect life, because in my humanity, I was still self centered and impulsive ....and as such, sinning....so I was defeated.

That message is so dangerous and does so much harm.

Mark, THANK YOU for your post. I am going to pray some people who need to read what you wrote do read it....because that lack of knowledge in our "leaders and pastors" cost me, personally, many years of freedom in Christ.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 8:39 am

shorttribber wrote:Then why aren't we doing that mark?

Why is it that not one Christian is doing that? I mean Completely doing that?


Hi ST,

Having responded in the main, I'd like to answer some individual points.

In the above, I'd like to ask, how is it that you know no Christians are living lives characterized primarily by righteousness and fruitfulness? Really? None?

Is it really the Biblical message, "YOU CAN'T"?

It's because you are expecting that each of those scriptures pertain to us Individually. And in a sense, they do.


Of course they apply to us individually. Are you saying that when God states, take every thought captive, that there's a sense in which this does not apply to me individually?

Where they will actually find Complete Fulfillment though is as the Entire Body, as ONE Unified people.


To this I will disagree to my final breath.

Where ever in the Bible do you find any indication that God has put a cap on our ability to obey? Sorry, guy, I know you want righteousness, I know I've told you that's what I want for you, but no, I've made it so you can't. Is that our God?

It is not a Natural daily walking in the Spirit kind of power, where we can take a tiny detour that displeases God and quickly bounce back......


Why not?? Life in the Spirit, forays into the flesh, but short, and quickly bounced back from as God leads and builds us.

What's coming is not currently available to us all, as much as we want it to be.....God is sovereign and I don't know why.

I guess I can't answer any more about it..............God will explain why later.

Right now we only know in part.....and that's a fact.


What about His promises? What about His Spirit? Sadly lacking in power to bring righteousness into our lives.

:cry:

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 11, 2018 8:45 am

mark s wrote:shorttribber wrote:Then why aren't we doing that mark?Why is it that not one Christian is doing that? I mean Completely doing that?
Hi ST,Having responded in the main, I'd like to answer some individual points.In the above, I'd like to ask, how is it that you know no Christians are living lives characterized primarily by righteousness and fruitfulness? Really? None?


Two words stand out......The use of my word "Completely" and the juxtaposed use of your word "Primarily".

I hope you see my point.

:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 11, 2018 9:05 am

mark s wrote:Of course they apply to us individually. Are you saying that when God states, take every thought captive, that there's a sense in which this does not apply to me individually?

That's why I said, "In a sense", yes.
Because it does apply to us individually....but will find fulfillment and be COMPLETELY Accomplished in.... US.... Corporately.
mark s wrote:ST said: Where they will actually find Complete Fulfillment though is as the Entire Body, as ONE Unified people.
marks said: To this I will disagree to my final breath.


That will be true if your final breath comes before the Unity of Eph 4 comes :wink:

mark s wrote:Where ever in the Bible do you find any indication that God has put a cap on our ability to obey? Sorry, guy, I know you want righteousness, I know I've told you that's what I want for you, but no, I've made it so you can't. Is that our God?


I think it is throughout the Bible, but you can believe it isn't. Righteousness is a different matter entirely, MY Righteousness IS already Mine, My Righteousness IS Christ in me.

That has no bearing on what I can or can't do in the fleshly body as to obey or disobey.

mark s wrote:Why not?? Life in the Spirit, forays into the flesh, but short, and quickly bounced back from as God leads and builds us.

That is the walk we now have, yes, and that is, as God told Paul "sufficient" for us currently.......but that will change soon.

mark s wrote:And what of the believers through the centuries who will never have been able to partake of this "Latter days outpouring"?

We ALL Participate Together in it mark...we are One, never at any time is One the greater or the lesser based on the pilgrimage they had or what time in history they had it.

mark s wrote:What about His promises? What about His Spirit? Sadly lacking in power to bring righteousness into our lives.


That may be the key to this whole matter mark. We HAVE Righteousness NOW! I'm not at all saying that any of us WILL HAVE "Righteousness" at some future point.

I think you are in error to equate Our Personal "Obedience" or "Perfect Unity" in the Body of Christ with "Righteousness".
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 11, 2018 9:15 am

gotta go to the shop....bless ya mark
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 9:23 am

shorttribber wrote:I'll give you one small example mark.....two scriptures to reconcile as to how they can or can't apply to us today....

john 16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 Cor13
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


I'll give you a hint, as to How Both these texts find fulfillment, that seem to be not in complete agreement with each other currently.


Hi ST,

I fail to see how either of these Scriptures tell me I can't live a victorious life in Christ, always being led in triumph.

While I see many Scriptures that tell me that's what this life is all about.

1 John 2:1-2 (HCSB)

My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ the Righteous One. He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.


God's purpose is that we not sin.

"I am writing you these things so that you may not sin."

God recognizes that there is still the possibility of sin, and reassures us that Jesus is our advocate, our propitiation, that is, an acceptable substitute sacrifice making satisfaction for our sins. Otherwise know as . . . the mercy seat.

"I am writing you these things so that you may not sin."

God's purpose for you.

Livable? Or futile?

1 Peter 1:3 (HCSB)

His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness.


True? Or False?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 9:51 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:Of course they apply to us individually. Are you saying that when God states, take every thought captive, that there's a sense in which this does not apply to me individually?

That's why I said, "In a sense", yes.
Because it does apply to us individually....but will find fulfillment and be COMPLETELY Accomplished in.... US.... Corporately.


Hi ST,

So, you are saying that it applies to us, but it's not going to happen for us - - - for any of us - - - ever! Until! That special time comes when God fixes us all.

"If any be in Christ, he is a new creation. Old things are gone away, look! All are new! Now all are from God!" (Punctuation mine)




mark s wrote:ST said: Where they will actually find Complete Fulfillment though is as the Entire Body, as ONE Unified people.
marks said: To this I will disagree to my final breath.


That will be true if your final breath comes before the Unity of Eph 4 comes :wink:


No, actually, to my final breath, whenever that may. Because the Words of Scripture do not change.
mark s wrote:Where ever in the Bible do you find any indication that God has put a cap on our ability to obey? Sorry, guy, I know you want righteousness, I know I've told you that's what I want for you, but no, I've made it so you can't. Is that our God?


I think it is throughout the Bible, but you can believe it isn't.


Where, exactly? You really, truly believe that God has appointed His children to the same futility that is in the world? I can't believe that ever. Jesus came to give us abundant life. Not hardship with futility.

Righteousness is a different matter entirely, MY Righteousness IS already Mine, My Righteousness IS Christ in me.

That has no bearing on what I can or can't do in the fleshly body as to obey or disobey.


What is your righteousness exactly? Is it only an imputation? Or are you an new person, created in God's likeness, in righteousness and true holiness? (Ephesians 4:24)

If you are a new righteous person, then what prevents you from living that way? Only disbelief.

So, the new person you are, the fact that you are united with God in some mystical yet real way, the fact that God has declared that you have everything you need for life and godliness . . . this has no impact on how we act? Or does it? Can it?

Hmm.

I think you are in error to equate Our Personal "Obedience" or "Perfect Unity" in the Body of Christ with "Righteousness".


I'm talking about living a righteous life.

We are made righteous in Christ. But that righteousness isn't solely "positional", as if it were not real in our lives, in us. It's real. We are new. We are righteous. We are holy. We serve the God we love with our whole hearts.

And when that reality is not reflected in the actions of our bodies - thoughts / words / deeds - this is because we do not believe it can be. And so by default, the body just does it's own thing. Until we return to trusting.

Why should we think we cannot live what we are?

Much love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri May 11, 2018 9:58 am

I would agree that there are subtle doctrinal errors out there in the church that can be very deceiving especially for the newly saved. Personally I think any error in doctrine is too much, however I also recognize that there are grey areas, that are not spelled out clearly in scripture, where one may believe something different than what I may believe, like the rapture timing for example. Those kinds of issues should not divide us.

I also do see the problem with leaving our church(es). If the mature believers leave, then who will remain to shine the light on the truth for the immature? Who will be the example to others? It is a question I have wrestled with. In our current situation, my husband and I have hit a road block. Leadership has made it nearly impossible for us to serve the body. That and the people themselves have grown apathetic. So we see no choice but to leave. It really isn't even an issue of doctrine for us, it is an issue of poor leadership.

Sadly the options out there for us are not great. We will return to our previous church, where there is a lack of doctrinal teaching. The preaching is very shallow. But we do see that we may have more opportunity to use our gifts and talents there. So we will give it a shot and see what the Lord does.

I appreciate what Mark has added to this conversation, but am having difficulty grasping what Shortribber has communicated. The whole individual vs. corporate thing. Not sure I agree entirely with that view.

Yes corporately we as believers function better, with all the various gifts represented in individuals. It's hard to have a functioning body when all you have is a foot and a hand. All the gifts working together support the entire body. The problem I see in today's church is that you have this scenario playing out:

1 Corinthians 12:21
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”


which results in this:

1 Corinthians 12:17–19
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 If they were all one member, where would the body be?


In my experience what I have seen all over in the church is a segregation of gifts. The weaker and more immature members have maligned those who disagree with them. The eye says "only I see what is true". Those with a keen sense of smell who know that something rotten is afoot are not respected for their God given gifts and are even maligned by those who want control. What has happened at least in my neck of the woods is that those who are maligned leave. And what is left is not a full functioning body. So in this sense I can see how the corporate body can accomplish things together that the individual may not.

However I do not believe that this extends to our perfection as a body. Our completion in Christ IMO doesn't happen until our physical body is redeemed, AKA the resurrection. I don't think scripture or history for that matter supports corporate perfection of any group of believers who live as mortals on the earth. We as individuals are given the equipment to live in a way that pleases and glorifies God, that accomplishes His will in and through us. As Mark pointed out from 2 Peter (my favorite passage) we are given everything we need. This is not some future fulfillment, we have access to it right now. There is nothing that keeps us from walking in the Spirit except for our flesh . In Christ we have forgiveness and the ability to overcome and continue on as Mark explained. As long as we live in a fallen world in our corrupted flesh we will struggle to walk according to the Spirit, but with practice and perseverance what happens is that we find ourselves less inclined to stumble as we grow in Christ. When we do sin, we find it easier to repent and make it right. As our root of faith grows deeper into Him, He supplies us with growing stability and strength.

2 Peter 1:8–11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


Just adding my thoughts

RT
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 9:59 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:shorttribber wrote:Then why aren't we doing that mark?Why is it that not one Christian is doing that? I mean Completely doing that?
Hi ST,Having responded in the main, I'd like to answer some individual points.In the above, I'd like to ask, how is it that you know no Christians are living lives characterized primarily by righteousness and fruitfulness? Really? None?


Two words stand out......The use of my word "Completely" and the juxtaposed use of your word "Primarily".

I hope you see my point.

:hugs:


ST, I'm not talking about living Perfection. And I certainly do not teach that we will reach Perfection in our behaviour in this life on this planet.

Maybe we're talking at cross purposes here.

But when I say "primarily", that's what I mean, to the point that the flesh nature takeovers become so minimal as to become virtually insignificant towards impacting us aside from giving us reason to be happy when God so quickly rescues us each and every time from the sins of the flesh.

There are more than two options.

There is the life lived in disbelief that we can live right.

There is the life lived perfectly right.

And . . . there is a middle ground.

So many I know live their lives crippled by these false notions that we lack the needed power to live right. I was. Others have said the same.

Is it your view that if we can't do 100%, that we equally can't do 99.999%?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 11:49 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I also do see the problem with leaving our church(es). If the mature believers leave, then who will remain to shine the light on the truth for the immature? Who will be the example to others? It is a question I have wrestled with. In our current situation, my husband and I have hit a road block. Leadership has made it nearly impossible for us to serve the body. That and the people themselves have grown apathetic. So we see no choice but to leave. It really isn't even an issue of doctrine for us, it is an issue of poor leadership.


Hi RT,

This is one of my real concerns. I feel that to leave is to abandon the flock. But I'm coming to grips with the fact that, much like what you've said, the problems are in leadership as much or more as doctrine. But then, I feel the two to be pretty much inseparable, same as in our lives.

True doctrine leads to true leadership.

Just like true doctrine leads to true living.

1 Corinthians 12:21
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”


which results in this:

1 Corinthians 12:17–19
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
19 If they were all one member, where would the body be?


In my experience what I have seen all over in the church is a segregation of gifts. The weaker and more immature members have maligned those who disagree with them. The eye says "only I see what is true". Those with a keen sense of smell who know that something rotten is afoot are not respected for their God given gifts and are even maligned by those who want control. What has happened at least in my neck of the woods is that those who are maligned leave. And what is left is not a full functioning body. So in this sense I can see how the corporate body can accomplish things together that the individual may not.


This is a graphic scenario played out over and again from what I've seen.

A church teaches it's people that they lack what they need, that God blesses and curses them, that they are miserable sinners, just thank God that He's not going to punish them for it! Except, of course, when it doesn't rain!

The people don't know that God has given them a victorious, overcoming life. They work their hardest to become better people. They don't realize that God does that for them. They work and try and struggle to figure out how to make it all happen. One has this idea, and one has that idea, and each pursues their agenda.

Sometimes they conflict, sometimes not, but so many times end in striving and discord. but many times do not, and are great groups of believers in a family, serving according to God. I've seen it.

You mention, "those who want control". I think this is a big part of it. Those who have become self-reliant. That self-reliance extends outward.

This is not some future fulfillment, we have access to it right now. There is nothing that keeps us from walking in the Spirit except for our flesh . In Christ we have forgiveness and the ability to overcome and continue on as Mark explained. As long as we live in a fallen world in our corrupted flesh we will struggle to walk according to the Spirit, but with practice and perseverance what happens is that we find ourselves less inclined to stumble as we grow in Christ. When we do sin, we find it easier to repent and make it right. As our root of faith grows deeper into Him, He supplies us with growing stability and strength.


:a3:

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby Jay Ross on Fri May 11, 2018 2:20 pm

I felt lead to post the following: -

Ezekiel 34:11-31: - God, the True Shepherd

11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."

17 'And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture — and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet."

20 'Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: "Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them — My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.

25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord God.'"

31 "You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God," says the Lord God.


Now I wonder if we rally understand what is being said in verse 13 above.

It is morning here and our daughter is taking us, (my wife and I) out for breakfast as a treat for Mother's day tomorrow, before they head home, about 5 hrs away to their family.

I will comment on verse 13 as I understand it, later.

Shalom
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 11, 2018 2:22 pm

mark s wrote:ST, I'm not talking about living Perfection. And I certainly do not teach that we will reach Perfection in our behaviour in this life on this planet.


I realize that is not what you are talking about.....but that IS What I'm talking about.

That IS the difference....I agree with you in every other respect mark.

What I'm saying is that there IS...THERE IS a REAL Perfection Coming ON THIS PLANET...BEFORE Christ Literally and Physically Comes...and THAT, Dear Brother and RT, WILL be a miracle.

And that will end my comments...as I agree in every other respect with what you're saying mark.....it's just that you do not believe what I believe is coming...and that's ok with me.



You will however believe it when it happens :wink:

:hugs:
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 3:12 pm

I'm not looking at experiential, my brother, I'm looking at the Scriptures, and I simply do not see your interpretation in that passage, Ephesians 4.

But what alarms me is that there is an outpouring coming, which will in fact bring all churches together, but not as a new Pentecost, but as lying signs and wonders, deceiving the whole world, the Harlot and the Beast.

Tell me please, why exactly is it that you believe this portion of Ephesians 4 has a timed fulfillment just before the end of the age? Why then?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 3:19 pm

Jay Ross wrote:I felt lead to post the following: -

Ezekiel 34:11-31:13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.


Now I wonder if we rally understand what is being said in verse 13 above.


Hi Jay,

To me, it means that God will bring the Israelites out from the nations, back to their land. I never really go for allegorical interpretations unless there is some clear textual reason to do so.

I'll look forward to your thoughts.

It is morning here and our daughter is taking us, (my wife and I) out for breakfast as a treat for Mother's day tomorrow, before they head home, about 5 hrs away to their family.


That sounds very nice!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 11, 2018 4:12 pm

mark s wrote:I'm not looking at experiential, my brother, I'm looking at the Scriptures, and I simply do not see your interpretation in that passage, Ephesians 4.

I haven't heard your opinion on it.
What I see in it is what the text plainly says.
mark s wrote:But what alarms me is that there is an outpouring coming, which will in fact bring all churches together, but not as a new Pentecost, but as lying signs and wonders, deceiving the whole world, the Harlot and the Beast.

Really? Show me where you find that distinctly as you are saying it will be....in scripture please.
mark s wrote:Tell me please, why exactly is it that you believe this portion of Ephesians 4 has a timed fulfillment just before the end of the age? Why then?

Because there is no Unity now, is there? Has the body of Christ yet come to the fullness of the stature of Christ ...to PERFECTION, that we are no longer tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine yet mark?

Pray tell, what else could it be saying? When could that occur then?

I'm really quite done with this conversation anyway.......guess I'm tired of division more than I first thought.
I should not have commented to begin with I suppose.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Fri May 11, 2018 5:49 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm not looking at experiential, my brother, I'm looking at the Scriptures, and I simply do not see your interpretation in that passage, Ephesians 4.

I haven't heard your opinion on it.


Hi ST,

Ephesians 4 is how it begins.

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

Ephesians 4:11-16 (ESV)


No cunning, no craftiness, no deceit, simply grounded in true doctrine, so that we are able to grow in Him.

This simply describe how it is that the parts all work correctly together.

This is not a prophecy for the end times, and de facto, the coffin nail in our trying to live the Spirit life now.

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.

1 John 4:16-17 (ESV)


Love is perfected in us by God living in us. This gives us confidence for the day of judgement - that is, ahead of the day of judgment, and why? Because we are like Him, even though we are here.

mark s wrote:But what alarms me is that there is an outpouring coming, which will in fact bring all churches together, but not as a new Pentecost, but as lying signs and wonders, deceiving the whole world, the Harlot and the Beast.

Really? Show me where you find that distinctly as you are saying it will be....in scripture please.

I'll need to come back to this, I'll need more time and I'm about out.
mark s wrote:Tell me please, why exactly is it that you believe this portion of Ephesians 4 has a timed fulfillment just before the end of the age? Why then?

Because there is no Unity now, is there? Has the body of Christ yet come to the fullness of the stature of Christ ...to PERFECTION, that we are no longer tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine yet mark?

Pray tell, what else could it be saying? When could that occur then?


This is an "argument from silence", that is, it doesn't say otherwise so it must be this.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 11, 2018 6:57 pm

Strong's #3360: metopon (pronounced met'-o-pon)
from 3372; as far as, i.e. up to a certain point (as a preposition, of extent (denoting the terminus
, whereas 891 refers especially to the space of time or place intervening) or conjunction):--till, (un-)to, until.

Above is the word that was used in the Greek mark.........and it is in agreement with A TERMINUS END where Actual Unity is FULLY AND COMPLETELY REALIZED.

Your interpretation of this text would have used the word #891 below.....where a Time During or WHILE Unity is BEING Realized.
And that is NOT the meaning of the passage mark.
You said the following...
mark s wrote:No cunning, no craftiness, no deceit, simply grounded in true doctrine, so that we are able to grow in Him.This simply describe how it is that the parts all work correctly together.


Did you forget the words "So That"?

In other words ..........UNTIL 3360 is achieved/Realized... TERMINUS....there is no "SO THAT"

it is not meant to be understood as "While" #891, as in, While this process of perfection or maturation continues.

Strong's #891: achri (pronounced akh'-ree)
or achris akh'-rece; akin to 206 (through the idea of a terminus); (of time) until or (of place) up to:--as far as, for, in(-to), till, (even, un-)to, until, while. Compare 3360.


So, it does have a Point IN TIME when the Actual perfection , Fullness of Christ Stature IN THE BODY is Reached in time (Terminus).

So, we are not in Complete Unity YET....but there WILL BE Complete Unity according to This Prophetic Text.

You can believe it is not prophetic brother....but it is you that is in error regarding Eph 4.
Last edited by shorttribber on Sun May 13, 2018 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 11, 2018 7:02 pm

Now, I have proven that there will be a space in time "A Terminus" where the Perfection Comes, as Paul said...I have given you the meaning of "TILL" or "Until" as Paul used it...........I have given you the REAL Meaning.

you can still believe as you do, but it is Not in agreement with the Plain Meaning of the text mark.



I pray God will open your eyes and heart to see the Real Meaning, and admit it.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat May 12, 2018 6:13 am

Mark said:
True doctrine leads to true leadership.

Just like true doctrine leads to true living.


I couldn't agree more!

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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Sat May 12, 2018 10:24 am

I would also like to point out that if it is possible to point out any of the following translations that do not agree with what I am saying as to a Future Appointed Time that Unity should Eventually Come.......

Please point it out mark.




New International Version
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

New Living Translation
This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

English Standard Version
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

Berean Study Bible
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

Berean Literal Bible
until we all may attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a complete man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

New American Standard Bible
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

King James Bible
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Christian Standard Bible
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ's fullness.

Contemporary English Version
This will continue until we are united by our faith and by our understanding of the Son of God. Then we will be mature, just as Christ is, and we will be completely like him.

Good News Translation
And so we shall all come together to that oneness in our faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God; we shall become mature people, reaching to the very height of Christ's full stature.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's Son, growing into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ's fullness.

International Standard Version
until all of us are united in the faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of development in the Messiah.

NET Bible
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God--a mature person, attaining to the measure of Christ's full stature.

New Heart English Bible
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature person, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Until we all shall be one entity in the faith and in the knowledge of The Son of God and one perfect man with the dimensions of the stature of the maturity of The Messiah,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is to continue until all of us are united in our faith and in our knowledge about God's Son, until we become mature, until we measure up to Christ, who is the standard.

New American Standard 1977
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.

Jubilee Bible 2000
until we all come forth in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the coming of age of the Christ:

King James 2000 Bible
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

American King James Version
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

American Standard Version
till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ;

Darby Bible Translation
until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at [the] full-grown man, at [the] measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ;

English Revised Version
till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Webster's Bible Translation
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

Weymouth New Testament
till we all of us arrive at oneness in faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, and at mature manhood and the stature of full-grown men in Christ.

World English Bible
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Young's Literal Translation
till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Sat May 12, 2018 10:26 am

Have I made my point mark? Do you need more proof as to what this text is Plainly Saying?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Sat May 12, 2018 11:40 am

Want further Proof in scripture, in Bible Prophecy, what Perfection IS?

Observe.....


Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

....................................................17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Heb 2
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

John 5: 36
King James Bible
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Christian Standard Bible
"But I have a greater testimony than John's because of the works that the Father has given me to accomplish. These very works I am doing testify about me that the Father has sent me.


And THAT IS Perfection...Defined by Christ's Testimony/Witness, and is Defined in Like Manner IN THE Saints in Bible Prophecy.

That Perfection IS Coming! But why Fear it? Perfect Love Casts Out FEAR!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat May 12, 2018 2:06 pm

mark s wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:I felt lead to post the following: -

Ezekiel 34:11-31:13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.


Now I wonder if we rally understand what is being said in verse 13 above.


Hi Jay,

To me, it means that God will bring the Israelites out from the nations, back to their land. I never really go for allegorical interpretations unless there is some clear textual reason to do so.

I'll look forward to your thoughts.

<snip>
Much love!
Mark


Mark, your response has dampened my interest in providing further comment on verse 13 above. In posting the other verses I was providing the context of this one verse. But I will plough on in the hope that it will help others to understand.

The word translated as land in this verse actually has the meaning of soil, such that this verse has nothing to do about God's intent to bring the Israelites back to the Promised Land at this present time. But as you have already declared that you do not like allegorical interpretations and as such given the thumbs down on any further input.

My understanding of this verse is that God is going to plant the Israelites, when He redeems them, into God's fertile soil, so that they can take root in His teachings on the "mountain of Israel", which at that time will have come down from Heaven as a stone cut out of the mountain without hands, where they are living so that they can be the seed for God's word with the people living around them where God has found them living.

This passage has a connection with the story of the Sower in the parable that Jesus told, where Israel will be come the seed spread in the good fertile soil and a great harvest of people from all of the nations will result.

In our attempts to force God's hand, we want the Israelites to return to the land in our near future so that the second advent of Christ will occur sooner rather than in our distant future as the scriptures foretell.

What does this mean for us?

It means that we should be looking for fertile soil in which we can be "feed" the good news that has come down as a stone/rock untouched by human hands so that we who are Christs can be a blessing to those who live about us.

As intercessors and people who have made a practice of looking at the prophecies of the End Times, it seems to me that by focusing on the return of the Israelites to the land of Canaan in our near future, we are going against word and his desire for the Israelites, and those who have been grafted into the stump of Jessi's, from being a blessing to all of those around us. We are not prepared to take up our Cross and be a blessing to the peoples of the nations that live around us. We want our reward now before the time of Judgement which is in our distant future, so that we can sit back be satisfied in our efforts which are contrary to God's purposes for the salvation of the people of the nations around us at this present time.

At present, the ground is not real good as it is not the prepared field of good fertile soil in which to spread the seed, for the final harvest of souls. It is hard work and the interests/woes of this time distract us from our allotted tasks in God's Kingdom.

When does the good fertile soil spread out before us? Well in Ezekiel 47:1-12 we are told that it will be around 3,000 years from the time when God at first inhabited the Temp[le that Solomon built and 1,000 years before the time of judgement begins when the river of life has reached its full width and flows over the escarpment to start the healing of the land below.

What are we doing at present? Arguing over trivial miss understandings that we each have about God, his high mountain in Israel, his purposes and the bases of our salvation and what it really depends on.

Do we love change? Not really. But God has told us to focus on the renewing of our minds soh that we can put on His covering of righteous and to become a blessing to all around us.

Shalom

PS: - Errors, spelling mistakes and thought wobbles accepted above.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Mon May 14, 2018 9:21 am

shorttribber wrote:Strong's #3360: metopon (pronounced met'-o-pon)
from 3372; as far as, i.e. up to a certain point (as a preposition, of extent (denoting the terminus
, whereas 891 refers especially to the space of time or place intervening) or conjunction):--till, (un-)to, until.

Above is the word that was used in the Greek mark.........and it is in agreement with A TERMINUS END where Actual Unity is FULLY AND COMPLETELY REALIZED.


It would be really helpful if you would put this into a context.

With some more time I imagine I can find where you are looking at.
Your interpretation of this text would have used the word #891 below.....where a Time During or WHILE Unity is BEING Realized.
And that is NOT the meaning of the passage mark.
You said the following...


but this is really confusing . . . "My interpretation would have used such and such word" . . . what? . . . again, a context would be very helpful.

mark s wrote:No cunning, no craftiness, no deceit, simply grounded in true doctrine, so that we are able to grow in Him.This simply describe how it is that the parts all work correctly together.


Did you forget the words "So That"?

In other words ..........UNTIL 3360 is achieved/Realized... TERMINUS....there is no "SO THAT"

it is not meant to be understood as "While" #891, as in, While this process of perfection or maturation continues.

Strong's #891: achri (pronounced akh'-ree)
or achris akh'-rece; akin to 206 (through the idea of a terminus); (of time) until or (of place) up to:--as far as, for, in(-to), till, (even, un-)to, until, while. Compare 3360.


So, it does have a Point IN TIME when the Actual perfection , Fullness of Christ Stature IN THE BODY is Reached in time (Terminus).

So, we are not in Complete Unity YET....but there WILL BE Complete Unity according to This Prophetic Text.

You can believe it is not prophetic brother....but it is you that is in error regarding Eph 4.


OK, back to the passage:

Ephesians 4:11-18 (YLT)

"and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers, unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ, till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fullness of the Christ, that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray, and, being true in love[/b], we may increase to Him [in] all things, who is the head -- the Christ; from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.

This, then, I say, and I testify in the Lord; ye are no more to walk, as also the other nations walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in the understanding, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart,


There are a number of "until's" here.

Jesus gave us these to build us up, until . . .

"until we may all come to the unity of the faith, and of the recognition of the Son of God

to a perfect man

to a measure of stature of the fullness of Christ"

And then?

It's all so that we will no more be babies, tossed and carried around by every wind of teaching. It's so that we will be true in love, that we may increase in Him, that we will all build each other up in love.

I read this as how it begins, not how it ends.

"This, then, I say . . ."

So with all this in mind, don't walk anymore like the other nations. Don't go that way, go this way.

If we just take the passage in order, Jesus gave us these people to build us up into unity and knowledge of Jesus and maturity, so that we won't just be blown around by every breeze of teaching, and we can all minister to each other, building each other up in love, not just following the darkness like before, like the other people, who have nothing to do with God.

But put all of that off! Be done with it.

Put on the new man . . . the new creation.

Interesting thing about this new creation.

It was created "in God's likeness, in righteousness and true holiness".

And with faith in Jesus, this new man lives.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Mon May 14, 2018 9:45 am

Hi Jay,

Sorry for any "dampening affect", perhaps it may help if I remind . . .

Jay Ross wrote: But as you have already declared that you do not like allegorical interpretations and as such given the thumbs down on any further input.


That's not actually what I said.

I never really go for allegorical interpretations unless there is some clear textual reason to do so.


If there is something in the text to give a clear indication that something is meant allegorically, then the I love allegorical interpretation.

:grin:

Like the parable of the trees in the Kings, I think. Clearly allegorical, and the meaning made known. This is one we can know.

I want you to know I've read your interpretation, and I appreciate the time you took to write it. And, it does help me to fill in some holes in understanding your view of things.

As you know our eschatology is fairly far apart, and I think much of that has to do with the way we read and interpret Scripture. I think all doctrinal difference is attributable to that.

One thing I'll say that I think we are side by side on,

We are not prepared to take up our Cross and be a blessing to the peoples of the nations that live around us.


I often return to 2 Corinthians 3:18, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, we are being transformed into His image, from glory, to glory.

God transforms us as we see His work in and through us. He reveals His glory in us, and seeing that transforms us into His image.

Oh, and your next line is perfect here:

Do we love change? Not really. But God has told us to focus on the renewing of our minds so that we can put on His covering of righteous and to become a blessing to all around us.

Shalom


Yes!!

But I would say, more than just a covering, a new creation.

We renew our minds so that we stop acting like the old mind.

The old mind want's to figure it all out, what everyone should be doing, how to make it all work, but God already has the plan. We just need to settle down into the life He has planned from the beginning, and let Him do all the arranging.

And we see it, and participate in it, and are transformed in it, and, since I'm not trying to control, just letting God control, then . . . unity, maturity, love, and we love and serve each other.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Mon May 14, 2018 10:02 am

shorttribber wrote:Have I made my point mark? Do you need more proof as to what this text is Plainly Saying?


Well, I feel pretty well hammered over it, but no matter.

Just the same, we can even leave this one alone if you prefer, though I have posted my response.

Let's take another.

1 John 2:1

"I've written to you that you may not sin."

What is God's intent for us?

I thank Him for the next part, that if we do sin, Jesus Christ the Righteous is our Advocate.

But just the same. A statement of intent. "That you may not sin."

Possible? If only for an hour? A day? Who cares about sin-counts, the point being, a lifestyle.

All this argument over whether God gives us His power or not, what is it doing? Is it telling people "you can't"? Because God says it's what He's done.

Dead to the flesh.

Dead to the world.

Dead to sin.

Dead to the Law.

Dead, dead, dead.

Now live. In Christ. Is Christ the author if sin? Of course not! Am I preaching perfection? Of course not! But am I preaching a life of righteousness, holiness, worshipfulness, thankfulness, love, interruptions short, weak, put down by the Spirit, a quick return to life? Yes!

Do I believe in this 'Latter Rain' idea, second Pentecost, no, I see it nowhere.

The only place I see signs and wonders in the end times are from three sources, though I'll admit this is simply what comes to mind at the moment.

God, in His judgments from heaven.

His 2 witnesses, who will have power to strike the earth with any plague.

and,
2 Thessalonians 2:8-11 (YLT)

". . . and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, [him,] whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved, and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,


How many will be deceived?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby shorttribber on Mon May 14, 2018 10:21 am

mark s wrote:shorttribber wrote:Strong's #3360: metopon (pronounced met'-o-pon)from 3372; as far as, i.e. up to a certain point (as a preposition, of extent (denoting the terminus, whereas 891 refers especially to the space of time or place intervening) or conjunction):--till, (un-)to, until.
Above is the word that was used in the Greek mark.........and it is in agreement with A TERMINUS END where Actual Unity is FULLY AND COMPLETELY REALIZED.

marks wrote: It would be really helpful if you would put this into a context.
With some more time I imagine I can find where you are looking at.

That may need to happen as far as your looking into it more over time. I think I have been very clear and have answered as to context.

I also do not know what more I could do than offer the full list of Bible translations that are in complete agreement with what I'm at least trying my best to express.

The text is not mean to be understood as God placing apostles teachers etc. in the church to bring the church into perfect unity and Not Ever finding an Actual, in Real Time Terminus/End where Unity is In FACT/Real and Accomplished.

The text is saying that it (Perfect Unity) Will Actually, In FACT be Accomplished mark, and it has not YET been accomplished.

How is it that you can't understand that that is what the text is saying?

Your concept or understanding or interpretation of the text would mean that Paul would have used #891 instead of #3360

#3360 Means that this Goal of Perfect Unity WILL in fact have the Goal Reached, a Real Terminus.

I don't know what else I could say mark....I need to drive on and use my time otherwise right now.

Blessing and love to you
:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Mon May 14, 2018 10:45 am

shorttribber wrote: I think I have been very clear and have answered as to context.


Hi ST,

I was just meaning that you would show the word in the verse you were looking at. But I figured you had to mean the "Until".

I also do not know what more I could do than offer the full list of Bible translations that are in complete agreement with what I'm at least trying my best to express.


I answer posts in order, I hadn't even read this one yet.

But I don't see your interpretation in them either, as I read the entire passage.

The text is not mean to be understood as God placing apostles teachers etc. in the church to bring the church into perfect unity and Not Ever finding an Actual, in Real Time Terminus/End where Unity is In FACT/Real and Accomplished.


Again, I think we read the passage differently. I look at the process described, Jesus gives apostles and all, build the church to where it builds itself, having reached a unity enabling it to do so.

Look at our disunity in the church today. It's because people don't believe it can happen for them.

Oh so many of little faith!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Mon May 14, 2018 10:52 am

Hi ST,

You know, it occurs to me, perfection and maturity translate from the same word, right?

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon May 14, 2018 3:31 pm

Hello

Just as God promised the Israelites in Ezekiel 34:13 that He will plant them in good fertile soil in which they are to take root in His teachings, from the mountain/rock in Israel, which is His truth. This same promise is found in Jeremiah 31: -

Jeremiah 31:33-34: - 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

How does God intend to do this? By planting them into good fertile soil where they can draw nourishment from God. At present the "Promised Land" is their focus and their "idol" / desire and they are not attempting to establish a relationship with God. They are attempting to force God's hand into giving them the fulfilment of His Promises to Abraham of an inheritance of the whole earth.

We "Christians" are also making the same mistake(s). Our focus is on the future promised outcome(s), i.e. the end game outcome, and not on the need for a "now" relationship with God, i.e. the present play.

This passage sums this up: -

Ephesians 4:1-6: - 4:1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.

This is a now passage. We are to chose to plant ourselves into His Good Fertile Soil and to drawn from Him all of our needs for the application of His gift of Grace implanted in/given to us.

The end game outcome, for ourelves, is not really our concern, that is God's/Christ's to provide the means by which we all will achieve unity in/with Him.

However, this chapter goes on to encourage us: -

Ephesians 4:17-24: - 17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed {G:0365} in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new {G:2537} man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Where: -
G:0365 ἀνανεόω ananeoó (an-an-neh-o'-o); from G:0303 and a derivative of G:3501; to renovate, i.e. reform: –– KJV - renew.

G:0303 ἀνά ana (an-ah'); a primary preposition and adverb; properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.): –– KJV - and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.

G:3501 νέος neos (neh'-os); including the comparative neoteros (neh-o'-ter-os); a primary word; "new", i.e. (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively, regenerate: –– KJV - new, young.

And where: -

G:2537 καινός kainos (kahee-nos'); of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while G:3501 is properly so with respect to age: –– KJV - new.

G:3501 νέος neos (neh'-os); including the comparative neoteros (neh-o'-ter-os); a primary word; "new", i.e. (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively, regenerate: –– KJV - new, young.

And also: -

G:2936 κτίζω ktizo (ktid'-zo); probably akin to G:2932 (through the idea of proprietor-ship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, i.e. found (form originally): –– KJV - create, Creator, make.

G:2932 κτάομαι ktaomai (ktah'-om-ahee); a primary verb; to get, i.e. acquire (by any means; own): –– KJV - obtain, possess, provide, purchase.

Considering the above Strong definitions, I prefer to consider that verses 23-24 are suggesting the following (my paraphrase): -

Ephesians 4:23-24: - 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new/refreshed man which was created/reformed according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

The idea that we are to strive to obtain God's gift of "grace" which will be provided at some time in the future, does not sit well with me.

We are to make the choice of whether or not we will be planted in God's good fertile soil to draw all of our nourishment from Him, or we can remain like a Gentile man and die because we do not allow our mind to be renewed so that the reflected nature of who we are to become does not form within us.

It is the play now that we chose that is important for our lives to be involved in. The future can take care of itself as today hass enough worries of its own.

Shalom
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Mon May 14, 2018 4:08 pm

Hi Jay,

It's posts like the above that make me not too concerned over our eschatological differences.

And at the core, I agree with you that it's better to focus on now than the future, if we have to choose. Personally, I believe that the Bible teaches us that focusing on what the future holds makes us better at living for Him today.

And all the more so by focusing on our intimacy with God. If we devote ourselves to simply having a relationship with Him, receiving from Him, trusting Him for everything, all else will be taken care of for us. We simply rest and let Him work His Mighty Hand through us.

And as far as I can tell, we're completely on the same page with this.

And again, I appreciate your explanation of the Ezekiel passage alongside Jeremiah, and again, I feel I understand better where you see what you see.

And I think I'll even say, both will happen. The same miracle that returns Israel to their land will also provide them the spiritual food that will bring them to repentance. Jesus' return, bringing salvation.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Mon May 14, 2018 4:12 pm

And to highlight what is a center point for me . . .

"was created in God's likeness" . . . was created . . . it's already happened.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby mark s on Mon May 21, 2018 11:47 am

I failed myself yesterday.

I didn't fail God, because there is no surprise. He's known all along what my day would be like.

Just before bed, feeling rotten about myself, I asked God to give me His Word, something for me.

I opened to Isaiah 44, reading at the bottom of the page . . .

"He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside. And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, 'Is there not a lie in my right hand?'"

That was just how I felt. I know enough to know that that's what happened. My deceptive heart pulled me away from standing. It's like eating mouthfuls of ashes. And for so many years a lack of self control! So frustrating! So horrid!

It was at the bottom of the page. It would be hard to explain exactly how I felt as I turned that page. God had so well spoken my heart in His Word, as He has so many times before.

“Remember these things, O Jacob,
And Israel, for you are My servant;
I have formed you, you are My servant,
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.
“I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud
And your sins like a heavy mist.
Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”
Shout for joy, O heavens, for the Lord has done it!
Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth;
Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains,
O forest, and every tree in it;
For the Lord has redeemed Jacob
And in Israel He shows forth His glory."

Isaiah 44:20-23 (NASB)

And I know enough to know that these things, spoken to Jacob, to Israel, are also true for me.

I am His servant. No, I cannot deliver myself. But God made me. He does not forget me. This thick cloud of my transgression has been wiped away, the thick fog, and now I stand in a clear sky.

Come back to Me, He tells me, because I've redeemed you!

Shout for Joy!!! Everyone, everything, shout for joy, because He has done what I cannot.

I am His, and He is mine!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed May 23, 2018 6:38 am

:a3: Mark!

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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby keithareilly on Thu May 24, 2018 7:07 pm

In the end times, people will hold a form of godliness but deny its power. (2 Tim Chapter 3)

1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,


Both of these verses show the power we Christians have is: The Ability and Power to stop sinning.
1 John shows this by phrase "you may not sin". It says, we "may", indeed, truly, "not sin". Furthermore, this is reinforced by the word "If" in the phrase "if anyone sins". It does not say "When" anyone sins. It says "If" anyone sins. "If" means: a person might sin; a person might not sin. It is not something that shall happen, it is something that might happen.

Unfortunately, a false teaching exists that teaches: In order for us to stop sinning we must be without sin. That is, if sin lives within our flesh then we must sin, for we do not have the power to prevent sin that lives within our flesh from reigning over our mortal bodies; therefore, because we are not without sin, we must continue to sin. That is a false teaching. The truth is: Even while sin lives within our flesh, we are granted the power to overcome sin and prevent sin from ruling over our actions. We have been freed from enslavement to sin. We are able to do as we please and we are no longer forced to obey the sin that lives within our flesh.

Romans 6 spells this out clearly: we are not to let sin reign (rule) our mortal body. That means here and now, it is not referring to some time in the future when the perishable is clothed with the imperishable. It is talking about the here and now; in our mortal bodies; thus, while we are still clothed with the perishable.

Unfortunately, we are living in the end times. Very few people will agree we are granted the power to live the rest of our lives here without sinning any more. Because we deny this power, we continue to sin.

I too wish my faith were stronger, so that I believed what the scriptures say, and I want to believe in my heart not just understand in it in my head, that Christ indeed put an end to sin.

Keith
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Re: How Much is Too Much?

Postby GodsStudent on Fri May 25, 2018 7:40 am

mark s wrote:I failed myself yesterday.

I didn't fail God, because there is no surprise. He's known all along what my day would be like.

Just before bed, feeling rotten about myself, I asked God to give me His Word, something for me.

I opened to Isaiah 44, reading at the bottom of the page . . .

"He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside. And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, 'Is there not a lie in my right hand?'"

That was just how I felt. I know enough to know that that's what happened. My deceptive heart pulled me away from standing. It's like eating mouthfuls of ashes. And for so many years a lack of self control! So frustrating! So horrid!

It was at the bottom of the page. It would be hard to explain exactly how I felt as I turned that page. God had so well spoken my heart in His Word, as He has so many times before.

“Remember these things, O Jacob,
And Israel, for you are My servant;
I have formed you, you are My servant,
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me.
“I have wiped out your transgressions like a thick cloud
And your sins like a heavy mist.
Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”
Shout for joy, O heavens, for the Lord has done it!
Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth;
Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains,
O forest, and every tree in it;
For the Lord has redeemed Jacob
And in Israel He shows forth His glory."

Isaiah 44:20-23 (NASB)

And I know enough to know that these things, spoken to Jacob, to Israel, are also true for me.

I am His servant. No, I cannot deliver myself. But God made me. He does not forget me. This thick cloud of my transgression has been wiped away, the thick fog, and now I stand in a clear sky.

Come back to Me, He tells me, because I've redeemed you!

Shout for Joy!!! Everyone, everything, shout for joy, because He has done what I cannot.

I am His, and He is mine!

Much love!
Mark



Thank you for the honesty, Mark. This truth we share, about our humanity, because it does come up all the time, is appreciated ....and of course all humans can relate!!!
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