What you must believe if, .....

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:43 am

shorttribber wrote:Tweren't me :mrgreen:...........

I've just been read'n and :snack: snack'n


But maybe it could have been an out-a-body experience and I didn't know I did or didn't :mrgreen:


:lol:

My bad....it was Mr. Baldy's comment above. I probably thought it was yours on first glance since he enlarged part of the scripture as you often do. See his on March 8; 8:12 p.m.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29018
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:16 am

You know . . . sometimes that large type makes my eyes go buggy!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:32 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
Hi Mark,

I can believe that there would be sequence and duration of events happening in the new earth. But I cannot see the application of this earth's markers for time as God designed them for this finite world in Gen 1:

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,


But in Rev 21:4, 5 God says:

4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”


The two statements that I highlighted are very straightforward, and state definitively that there will be a new order of things for the new world.

sonbeam


Mark wrote:
And yet . . . He still speaks of months. Kinda makes one wonder, no? Just what will the new be? I can't wait to find out! And, it will be together with you!


Likewise Mark. We'll be together with all our F.P. family! What a celebration! :hugs: :banana: :banana:

:blessyou:

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:37 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:John was given a vision. Does the scriptures say he was taken off this earth? I don't know. Just asking.


Well here is what Revelation 4:1-2 has to say:

Revelation 4:1-2 I New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Scene in Heaven

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2) Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.


Appears he was "taken off this earth" to me :mrgreen:


"taken out of this earth"? :lol:

Anyway Mr. Baldy, Abiding already gave us the scriptural answer. We ain't sure because even Paul wasn't sure. :grin:

But it's the message that's important for us to grasp/understand.


sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:55 pm

1 John 3:2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.


Mr Baldy said:

What does the aforementioned passage of Scripture mean?

Keep in mind, Jesus APPEARED after the Resurrection.


Mr. Baldy,

We will be like Him in that we will be spirit beings, BUT I believe we will see Jesus as He appeared to His apostles at the
transfiguration.

Matt 17
1. After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.


I don't think we will look quite like that. He is God and we are not, and never will be. :grin:

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:32 pm

Jesus will shine the brightest!

But let's all work on sharing His glory by doing His work. We'll shine too.

Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars of heaven forever.

But we, with unveiled faces, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image, out of glory into glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.

These light afflictions, which are but for a moment, are working for us a far greater eternal weight of glory.

Love others with His love, and you'll shine too!

:spin:

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:49 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Mr. Baldy,We will be like Him in that we will be spirit beings, BUT I believe we will see Jesus as He appeared to His apostles at thetransfiguration.


Hi Sonbeam,

Believe as you may......and I most certainly respect the fact that you have a belief - but I think that you are missing the point.

Jesus was seen AFTER the Resurrection - and in the Transfiguration, yet you can make a statement such as "we will see Jesus as He appeared to His apostles at the transfiguration."

Well...............

John very clearly speaks against what you have mentioned.

Again John writes:

Mr Baldy wrote: 1 John 3:2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.



Again, Jesus HAD indeed APPEARED to John, and many others AFTER His Resurrection - and to James, and Peter during the Transfiguration. John has clearly stated that "it has not appeared as yet what we will be" which he wrote AFTER He had seen Jesus in the Transfiguration - and AFTER He appeared post Resurrection.

So what makes you think that YOU know what we will be like, or even look like when He appears?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:15 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Again, Jesus HAD indeed APPEARED to John, and many others AFTER His Resurrection - and to James, and Peter during the Transfiguration. John has clearly stated that "it has not appeared as yet what we will be" which he wrote AFTER He had seen Jesus in the Transfiguration - and AFTER He appeared post Resurrection.

So what makes you think that YOU know what we will be like, or even look like when He appears?


Hi Mr Baldy,

I'm thinking we need to close in on this just a little further. Whether or not any can know or not, I think that's aside the point, at least what I'm looking at.

Rather, you make the argument that while John had seen Jesus transfigured, he later wrote it has not appeared what we will be, which would be to say that Jesus' transfiguration appearance wasn't it. Am I understanding you correctly?

It's a good point.

I've for some time thought about the verses right before the account of Jesus' transfiguration, where Jesus told His disciples,

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 16:28 NIV NIV! How did that happen???!!!

And I can only think that this prefaces the transfiguration. That is, since they all died before Jesus has come back. And if that's so, then that would be how Jesus would look in the kingdom. And so we'd be patterned after that, right?

So there ya' go. I haven't got it all sorted out. But I'm sticking with the shine thing!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:00 am

mark s wrote:I'm thinking we need to close in on this just a little further. Whether or not any can know or not, I think that's aside the point, at least what I'm looking at. Rather, you make the argument that while John had seen Jesus transfigured, he later wrote it has not appeared what we will be, which would be to say that Jesus' transfiguration appearance wasn't it. Am I understanding you correctly?


Hi Mark,

I'm certainly not saying that Jesus' Transfiguration was not it. I mentioned the passages of Scripture that John wrote to invoke a thought process. The Transfiguration was a vision given to the inner circle. So since this was a vision - it has NOT appeared what we will be like - therefore Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

Scripture provides no evidence that AFTER the Resurrection of Jesus that He was in His Glory - but; however, He was in a Glorified Body. So there is sufficient proof, because He had appeared to many, and actually remained on Earth for an additional 40 days before His ascension that there "may have been" some sort of "veil" that shielded Him - by His own direction so that men could look upon Him. After all no man can behold God in ALL of His Glory and live. At least not now in this present body that we are in.

I have posed the question on this forum before - asking whether or not Jesus will have the scar on His side, or the nail prints in His hands throughout Eternity? I never received a solid answer. Not to go down a rabbit hole here - but in the Transfiguration, Jesus did not have the nail prints, or the scar on His side because He had not yet been crucified. Yet, after His resurrection, Thomas touched Him in His Glorified Body - and felt His Scar.

So in closing, when one "appears" to dogmatic about a certain view point I think that they should be able to support what they say with Scripture.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:25 pm

,
Mr. Baldy said:
Hi Sonbeam,

Believe as you may......and I most certainly respect the fact that you have a belief - but I think that you are missing the point.



No Mr. Baldy, I did not miss the point. :grin: Your posting of 1 John 3:2 kind of gave me an idea of why you cited that verse. And yes, I was aware when I wrote my post then that Jesus has "appeared" or shown Himself to His apostles and others.

Just to be sure though, after reading your answer to Mark S, are you saying that Jesus Christ in eternity will have a body of flesh and blood?

And if so, I too would most certainly respect for you to have that belief.

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:55 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Just to be sure though, after reading your answer to Mark S, are you saying that Jesus Christ in eternity will have a body of flesh and blood?


Hi Sonbeam,

Absolutely NOT!

When Jesus was resurrected from the dead He had a Body of Flesh & Bones - NOT Flesh & Blood.

Here is what He said:

Luke 24:36-39 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Other Appearances

36) While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37) But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38) And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39) See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”


I personally don't think that Jesus will have a Body of Flesh & Bones throughout Eternity - but I am not dogmatic about this view. I believe that once He hands the Kingdom to God the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24) there will be no remembrance of the FORMER THINGS (Isaiah 65:17). There will be no need for a Savior, and no need for Him to display the scar in His side, or the nail prints.

God will be ALL in ALL - (1 Corinthians 15:28)

God is SPIRIT.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:38 am

Just want to add that "flesh and bones" appears a number of time in scripture and seems to relate to a human and/or a relationship of one to others which of necessity includes blood. See these:

Gen 2:23  And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 

Gen 29:14  And Laban said to him, Surely thou art my bone and my flesh.

Jdg 9:2  Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether is better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, which are threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over you? remember also that I am your bone and your flesh

2Sam. 19:12  Ye are my brethren, ye are my bones and my flesh: wherefore then are ye the last to bring back the king? 

Eph 5:30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones


fwiw....
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29018
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:07 pm

Thank you for the references Abiding. There are also many verses that use the phrase "flesh and blood" to mean
a human being.

I guess in posing my question to Mr Baldy, I could have been more specific and said "human body" which is what I
meant when I used the phrase "flesh and blood."



sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:16 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:Just to be sure though, after reading your answer to Mark S, are you saying that Jesus Christ in eternity will have a body of flesh and blood?


Hi Sonbeam,

Absolutely NOT!

When Jesus was resurrected from the dead He had a Body of Flesh & Bones - NOT Flesh & Blood.

Here is what He said:

Luke 24:36-39 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Other Appearances

36) While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37) But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38) And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39) See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”


I personally don't think that Jesus will have a Body of Flesh & Bones throughout Eternity - but I am not dogmatic about this view. I believe that once He hands the Kingdom to God the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24) there will be no remembrance of the FORMER THINGS (Isaiah 65:17). There will be no need for a Savior, and no need for Him to display the scar in His side, or the nail prints.

God will be ALL in ALL - (1 Corinthians 15:28)

God is SPIRIT.


Thank you for your response Mr. Baldy explaining your beliefs on this subject.

I agree with you. God is Spirit. And this is the reason I cannot believe that the Son of God would continue to be clad
in sinful flesh when He ascended after having completed His work here on earth.

Rom 8
3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh


:blessyou:


sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:06 am

Not "sinful flesh", rather, "in the likeness of sinful flesh". Not sinful flesh, just like sinful flesh.

The Last Adam, or Last Man.

Check 1 Corinthians 15 for a discussion of this topic.

Adam, the first man, sinned. Jesus, the last Man, or Last Adam, did not sin, though His was the same sort of bodily creation as Adam's. But of a new humanity.

God told Moses, I'll destroy them, and make from you a new nation. Moses pleaded for the people, and God spared them.

But in Jesus God made a new humanity, now without sin. And as we enter into that new humanity, we enter sinless and righteous.

It's kind of a new wonderment to me to realize that in my new creation spirit I can say to my Father, in all sincerity and truth,

"I have always loved you, from the day You first came to me until now! I have always served You with my whole heart. And I will love You, and serve You forever!"

In the words of the hymnist,

Thou my true Father
I Thy true son
Thou in my dwelling
And I in Thee one.

We have been born from our New Father! And we are like Him.

And the master said to his servant, well done, thou good and faithful servant! Because you have been faithful with a few things, I will set you over many things!

Be faithful, to live the new you. A life of joy!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:24 pm

mark s wrote:Not "sinful flesh", rather, "in the likeness of sinful flesh". Not sinful flesh, just like sinful flesh.


I am not sure of what you are saying here Mark. Are you saying Christ's flesh was not like Adam's?

The scriptures say that Christ "hungered, " became "tired" and that He "was tempted" in every way as every human being.


The Last Adam, or Last Man.

Check 1 Corinthians 15 for a discussion of this topic.

Adam, the first man, sinned. Jesus, the last Man, or Last Adam, did not sin, though His was the same sort of bodily creation as Adam's. But of a new humanity.

But in Jesus God made a new humanity, now without sin. And as we enter into that new humanity, we enter sinless and righteous.



I don’t see the descendants of Christ, His children, as being a “new humanity.”

Christ is called the last Adam in the sense that as Adam was the progenitor, the ancestor of the
human race.

Christ is the progenitor, the ancestor of a new generation, a new race of spiritual beings.

These are altogether two different generations.

And 1 Cor 15 bears this out. Adam is of the dust of the earth, Jesus Christ is the Son of God from heaven.

And God’s children are not “better and improved” humans but “new creations” in Christ as
2 Cor 5:17 says:


Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!


Mark, this is a new topic, it kind of started with the question of whether Christ will have a body of flesh in heaven.
I’m wondering if perhaps it should be made into a new thread?

:blessyou:

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:31 pm

mark s wrote:We have been born from our New Father! And we are like Him.

And the master said to his servant, well done, thou good and faithful servant! Because you have been faithful with a few things, I will set you over many things!

Be faithful, to live the new you. A life of joy!

Much love!
Mark


One of the topics in our class yesterday was about experiencing joy Mark. Very hard to do at times, but glorious when it is given to us by our Lord.
.

Bless you!

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:41 pm

Hi Sonbeam,

We can start a new thread if you like, or, if this suffices . . .

Yes, a new generation, but generated as what? Hebrews teaches us that Jesus had to be human. He calls the Israelites His brothers.

A new, human generation.

Or, in my parlance, a new humanity. Not repaired. Replaced.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:13 am

Hi Mark,

Yes, a new generation, but generated as what? Hebrews teaches us that Jesus had to be human. He calls the Israelites His brothers.

A new, human generation.

Or, in my parlance, a new humanity. Not repaired. Replaced.



We could really have an interesting thread on the humanity of Jesus, but no need for another thread right now.
:grin:

In thinking about the responses on this thread (including mine), I wonder if they reveal a desire to retain, project, carry over some of what is known to us (this earth, our life here, etc.) onto eternity (the big unknown) because of the fear of the unknown.

Here are a couple of things we think will be retained: there will be “time” in eternity, Jesus will have a body of flesh, if He does, than we will too, ......

... and sometime, somehow we can postpone facing eternity by having Jesus Christ come and reign on this earth for a thousand years. This should give us a chance to be around Him and get used to Him before we finally leave this world behind.

As for me, I see us as purely spiritual beings with a spiritual body, having the appearance we did here on earth though, BUT looking young, flawless, fit, .... Oh, but then maybe we wouldn’t recognize each other, would we? :lol:


The author, of the commentary that I started this thread on, has a slightly different (actually really different) variation on this theme. He links the full redemption of God’s saints with “the redemption” of this present creation.

He says here:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... ennialist/

“To the extent that the created order is not wholly and perfectly redeemed, we are not wholly and perfectly redeemed. The redemption and glory of creation are co-extensive and contemporaneous with ours.”


:humm:


sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:28 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
In thinking about the responses on this thread (including mine), I wonder if they reveal a desire to retain, project, carry over some of what is known to us (this earth, our life here, etc.) onto eternity (the big unknown) because of the fear of the unknown.


Hi Sonbeam,

Definitely a fascinating thread right here!

I don't think fear of the unknown plays a part in my thinking of the eternal. I think that, as God's children, what we most long for now will be completely fulfilled in His presence. Yearnings, longings, angst that we do not understand here will be understood and met in Him. Corruption brought through the body desires will be gone. There's nothing I want more than to leave this age, and be present in the age to come. Except, perhaps, to continue a bit longer here, knowing this will be good for me, and be good for others, meanwhile assured that the coming age awaits.

I recognize that we will be so completely different, and I am unable to understand the full scope, but I also recognize that we will be the same, only more so. So much more so! What I mean is this.

We've been reborn now born of God. So we're new creatures. And new creatures, God's children, is what we will be. That part doesn't change. As God's child, I am holy, righteous, and eternally in love with God, and He with me. Man! I can't even write that without being blessed!

But what does change is that this body of death, this rancid chunk of meat and bones, that fights me at every turn will in fact be replaced, transformed, into a body of life, a resurrected body, which will support my new creation at every turn.

And there is no fear in that. There is no fear in facing God, because I know He loves me! He sings with joy over me! I can only answer back with joy! Oh, I can hardly wait until I can see Him! Singing, and rejoicing, together with God!

How much He's done . . . how long He's worked . . . how patient He's been . . . and now, coming home!!!

It doesn't matter to me what the details will be, because He loves me!

Here are a couple of things we think will be retained: there will be “time” in eternity, Jesus will have a body of flesh, if He does, than we will too, ......

... and sometime, somehow we can postpone facing eternity by having Jesus Christ come and reign on this earth for a thousand years. This should give us a chance to be around Him and get used to Him before we finally leave this world behind.


Why ever would we want to "postpone facing eternity"?

I often hear expressed the opinion that the 1000 year kingdom age to be the opportunity to demonstrate that even in a world ruled by Jesus Himself, mankind living in the Presence of God Himself, that mankind will still rebel against it's Maker. I can't necessarily say why God has determined things to be this way. Only that this is what the Bible describes.

But of us, I see it more like coming home to be with my family, and especially my Father, and my Brother, after decades of emails and telephone calls. But now we get to be together in person. Forever!

For myself, I simply look to the Bible to see what it says about us, and Him, and forever.

You've mentioned time in the age to come.

The Bible speaks of years, months, seasons, and an earth in the eternal realm. The Bible speaks of a new heaven and a new earth.

So, me being a simple guy, I have this expectation that there will be an earth, and a heaven, both new, but both still earth and heaven. I think of them in the sense of resurrection. What they were, but now new and better.

God's intent is that the earth is our home.

Psalm 115:16 NASB

The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, but the earth He has given to the sons of men.


Revelation describes us on the earth. So I'm expecting to be on the earth. Job said that he would stand with his Redeemer on the earth, and see Him with his own eyes.

Job 19 NASB

23“Oh that my words were written!
Oh that they were inscribed in a book!

24“That with an iron stylus and lead
They were engraved in the rock forever!

25“As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.

26“Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;

27Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.
My heart faints within me!


I just love that his words are written, inscribed in a book, and not just any book!

Our Redeemer will stand on the earth.
We will see Him with our eyes.

Phenomenal language? It will just seem like that? Or purely descriptive? It will be that? Again, I'm a simple kind of guy.

As for me, I see us as purely spiritual beings with a spiritual body, having the appearance we did here on earth though, BUT looking young, flawless, fit, .... Oh, but then maybe we wouldn’t recognize each other, would we? :lol:


Just speaking for myself, mind you, but I'd been willing to make that trade!

:lol:

In 1 Corinthians 15:49 NASB

Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.


I think this encapsulates the thought pretty good. We have borne the image of the earthy, we will bear the image of the heavenly. But the question is, does that mean we will cease to bear the image of the earthy?

Verse 44, before it, would seem to answer the question:
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.


The one becomes the other, the natural becomes the spiritual, and is no longer natural.

But then, in verse 53:
For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.


So I'm thinking that the process in which the terrestrial becomes celestial is the joining . . .

2 Corinthians 5:1 NASB

For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


. . . of our eternal heavenly body to our terrestrial body. The imperishable clothes upon the perishable, transforming it into the imperishable. The corruptible flesh receives upon it the celestial being we are, transforming the flesh to become incorruptible.

I think of it this way.

When we believed, Christ came into us, that is to say, He, in the Holy Spirit, bringing in our Heavenly Father, united Himself with me. We are joined together is such a way that in the way He is alive I am now alive, being connected to Him. His life has become my life. I live because He lives in me.

I live forever because He is eternal. I am safe because He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He is my Father, and He loves me!

This part of my life is complete and eternal. What remains in the present age is to express this life, His life, through every facet of my life.

He will redeem my body.

Romans 8:23 NASB

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.


Romans 8 contains more of a discussion on the restoration of the creation.

Romans 8:20-21

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.


God's design is what it always has been. Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Sound good? I think God's just getting us back on track. Or, more to the point, via our winding path of horror, to bring us to where humanity would have been without sin. But that's my opinion.

But what I know is that creation will be set free from corruption, and my body will be redeemed.

It seems there's a place for the material world after all.

I think we will live in both terrestrial and celestial realms as though they are one. I think they are one. I think there is a veil, and the veil will be removed.

The author, of the commentary that I started this thread on, has a slightly different (actually really different) variation on this theme. He links the full redemption of God’s saints with “the redemption” of this present creation.

He says here:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... ennialist/

“To the extent that the created order is not wholly and perfectly redeemed, we are not wholly and perfectly redeemed. The redemption and glory of creation are co-extensive and contemporaneous with ours.”


I'd have to read more of his stuff, but I question what "Wholly and perfectly redeemed" means in his vocabulary. This sounds like a loaded term, carrying all sorts of luggage, while the verse says, the redemption of my body, and the freedom of creation. Again, seems simple to me.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:56 pm

Sorry for the length of my post above! There's more I want to say . . .

:bag:

But I want to touch a little more on this idea,

The Fear of the Unknown.

I would like to suggest that we have something, Someone, Who is known, and thereby casts away fear. If we are afraid of death, dying, what comes after, the eternal state, judgment, rewards (some are afraid of that scene), if we are afraid of anything, it is because we have not become aware of, or accepted the reality of God's love for us.

Romans 5:8-11 NASB

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


God's love for us is so all-encompassing, while we were hostile, He was reconciling. I've recently found a picture online, a man in a robe with holes in his hands, holding up another man, sagging in his arms, in this man's dangling arms, a hammer, a nail.

Here it is on Amazon. I'm not recommending buying this. I'm not against it. Just want you to be able to see it. Forgiven

That's the man of my flesh. Raging against God, murderous against Him. Always hostile, according to Romans 8. And dead. And Jesus, dying, as it were at my hand, rescuing me, saving me, loving me. How He loves us!!!

The Words of Scripture, the assurances of His Spirit inside me, the promise of new life unfolding, all of these things fill me with confidence and wonder at what lies ahead.

We can remind ourselves of His love, His precious promises, and know, with all assurance in our hearts and minds, that what awaits us is exactly what we want, what we were created for, the true reality of righteousness and love.

And with much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:09 am

mark s wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
In thinking about the responses on this thread (including mine), I wonder if they reveal a desire to retain, project, carry over some of what is known to us (this earth, our life here, etc.) onto eternity (the big unknown) because of the fear of the unknown.


Hi Sonbeam,

Definitely a fascinating thread right here!

I don't think fear of the unknown plays a part in my thinking of the eternal. I think that, as God's children, what we most long for now will be completely fulfilled in His presence. Yearnings, longings, angst that we do not understand here will be understood and met in Him. Corruption brought through the body desires will be gone. There's nothing I want more than to leave this age, and be present in the age to come. Except, perhaps, to continue a bit longer here, knowing this will be good for me, and be good for others, meanwhile assured that the coming age awaits.

I recognize that we will be so completely different, and I am unable to understand the full scope, but I also recognize that we will be the same, only more so. So much more so! What I mean is this.

We've been reborn now born of God. So we're new creatures. And new creatures, God's children, is what we will be. That part doesn't change. As God's child, I am holy, righteous, and eternally in love with God, and He with me. Man! I can't even write that without being blessed!

But what does change is that this body of death, this rancid chunk of meat and bones, that fights me at every turn will in fact be replaced, transformed, into a body of life, a resurrected body, which will support my new creation at every turn.

And there is no fear in that. There is no fear in facing God, because I know He loves me! He sings with joy over me! I can only answer back with joy! Oh, I can hardly wait until I can see Him! Singing, and rejoicing, together with God!



I've enjoyed reading both of your posts Mark. Your understanding of the extent of the Love and Grace of God for all His children blesses me. I don't encounter many believers secure in this truth and that saddens me.

I agree with you that we will be quite different in eternity. But I'm wondering to what extent. Isa 65:17 says this:

“See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."


Are the "former things" in this verse only the bad things, i.e., sickness, rejection, chronic pain (physical and mental), etc.? or are the "former things" our whole life?

Either way, I believe it won't make a difference for me or any of His children. We will be in His presence, enjoying His infinite Love for us.

Blessings,

sonbeam
Last edited by Sonbeam on Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:37 am

mark s wrote:The Fear of the Unknown.

I would like to suggest that we have something, Someone, Who is known, and thereby casts away fear. If we are afraid of death, dying, what comes after, the eternal state, judgment, rewards (some are afraid of that scene), if we are afraid of anything, it is because we have not become aware of, or accepted the reality of God's love for us.

Romans 5:8-11 NASB

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.



Mark
You said in your previous post, " I don't think fear of the unknown plays a part in my thinking of the eternal." But perhaps fear of the unknown does play a part for other believers.

We are so tethered to this world, believers and nonbelievers, being creatures of habit by design that as believers, it is possible that we want to project or retain some of the familiar things unto eternity.

And this IMO can blind us to accept scriptures like John 18:36:

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”


For me this is one of the scriptures that keeps me from accepting the belief that Christ is going to reign on this world,
but I definitely respect your belief and those of other believers that think otherwise.

With much love too,

:blessyou:

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:47 am

Sonbeam wrote:
mark s wrote:The Fear of the Unknown.

I would like to suggest that we have something, Someone, Who is known, and thereby casts away fear. If we are afraid of death, dying, what comes after, the eternal state, judgment, rewards (some are afraid of that scene), if we are afraid of anything, it is because we have not become aware of, or accepted the reality of God's love for us.

Romans 5:8-11 NASB

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.



Mark
You said in your previous post, " I don't think fear of the unknown plays a part in my thinking of the eternal." But perhaps fear of the unknown does play a part for other believers.


Hi Sonbeam,

I agree with you, that this is true. Fear plays a huge part in many lives. In my own life fear was a major driving force, until I began to learn just what it really means that God loves me.

We are so tethered to this world, believers and nonbelievers, being creatures of habit by design that as believers, it is possible that we want to project or retain some of the familiar things unto eternity.

And this IMO can blind us to accept scriptures like John 18:36:

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”


Yes that is possible, and likely, imo, that we will project what we know into the unknown.

However . . . and this is a big however for me . . .

In the course of discussion and debate, it's not about what we imagine, only about what Scripture says. Well, I imagine like most, but the point is, I'll always say that's just my imagination. We have the Scriptures, and they happen to say a lot.

I don't wan to assume an intellectual dishonesty on the part of the reader, that they must not be seeing it the way I do because they don't want to / have already formed other conclusions . . . things like that.

For me this is one of the scriptures that keeps me from accepting the belief that Christ is going to reign on this world,
but I definitely respect your belief and those of other believers that think otherwise.

With much love too,

:blessyou:

sonbeam


But will His kingdom always be absent from here? Or does the Bible say that God is bringing His home here, to live with us, on the new earth?

As they used to say . . .

Coming soon to a city near you!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:08 pm

But will His kingdom always be absent from here? Or does the Bible say that God is bringing His home here, to live with us, on the new earth?


I'm not sure what you mean by "here" Mark. Are you thinking that "the new heavens and the new earth" will be patterned after this present earth?

According to Rev 21, the new earth will not have the same properties/exist on the same principles as this earth:

God will provide the light on the new earth, not a sun or a moon which provide the light for this earth.

The new earth will have no sea.

It will be inhabited by the children of God who will be spiritual beings with a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:44

Therefore, the saints, who will be immortal, will not need oxygen, water, and food, as human beings do to survive on this earth.

But whatever shape or form our heavenly home takes, we'll be spending eternity with our Lord, the Lover of our souls.

Isn't that good news?

:itsgood:



Blessings

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:03 pm

All I can say is . . . a new heaven and a new earth.

I'm not expecting to be non-corporeal. 2 Corinthians 5 seems to make that fairly clear. Not to mention an host of other passages.

Jesus seemed to make a big deal out of the fact that He was bodily resurrected - "Here, give me something to eat. Touch me, hold me, I'm not a ghost."

The tomb was empty. His body was gone. He left with it.

I don't think we end up with less, we end up with more. That is, in the words of both 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 5, clothed upon. The temporal is clothed upon with eternal, transforming it also into eternal.

As I think we've started repeating ourselves, I'll leave it be with this.

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:13 pm

Enjoyed the discussion and fellowship brother Mark.

:blessyou:

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: What you must believe if, .....

Postby mark s on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:44 am

And I have too, Sonbeam!

Even though there may be places we disagree, to go along with those deeper places in which we overwhelmingly agree, I've never felt doubt over our unity, and that is the way it should be!

:blessyou:

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13572
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Previous

Return to General Bible Study & Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron