Eternal Life

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:04 am

Mr. Baldy,

As I said earlier, If predestination and freedom of choice both exist, then they cannot be mutually exclusive.

When we examine a penny we should observe it has a heads side and a tails side.
The sides are opposite.
If one is looking at the tails side, then one is not observing the heads side.
Observing one attribute of the penny does not mean the opposite attribute does not exist.

When we examine an action we should observe it has a predestination side and a freedom-of-choice side.
The sides are opposite.
If one is looking at the predestination side, then one is not observing the freedom-of-choice side.
Observing one attribute of the action does not mean the opposite attribute does not exist.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:28 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

As I said earlier, If predestination and freedom of choice both exist, then they cannot be mutually exclusive.

When we examine a penny we should observe it has a heads side and a tails side.
The sides are opposite.
If one is looking at the tails side, then one is not observing the heads side.
Observing one attribute of the penny does not mean the opposite attribute does not exist.

When we examine an action we should observe it has a predestination side and a freedom-of-choice side.
The sides are opposite.
If one is looking at the predestination side, then one is not observing the freedom-of-choice side.
Observing one attribute of the action does not mean the opposite attribute does not exist.

Keith

I'm not sure that is the rule when looking at truth itself Keith. As a matter of Philosophy, that could be a good rule, but not when applied to an Action of God.
For example, we known that God is very capable of hate, but He Himself IS Not "Hate". Speaking of the opposite (side of the coin) though, God IS "Love".
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:57 am

Another predestination thread, how many have we had over the years...many.


I likw what Mark said here:
Is it the Book of Life?

But the Bible talks about people's names remaining in the book, while others are blotted out.

God told Moses His deal. The soul that sins I will blot from My book, He said.

So it must be that the names of the living were written in God's book. But when they sin, they are removed. But for those who are justified, their names remain. God doesn't blot at our first sin. Romans 5 gives an excellent study on that part.

Jesus brought grace, and to every man. Jesus brought light, enlightening every man. And now God calls every man to repentance.

Those who receive His grace, their sins are not imputed, their names remain. Those who do not receive His grace, well, it's either God's Grace or their sin, so they get stuck with their sin, and their name is blotted out.

So it's God's foreknowledge of whose names will remain. And for those, whom He foreknew, He also did place boundaries ahead of time (predestinate - prohoridzo - pro - in advance, horidzo, horizon or boundary.

This is God's way of getting an early start. So everything works for our good! :grin:


I liken it to a wedding. The guest list represents the book of life, all are invited to the wedding feast(See Matthew 22:1-14). The groom's father sends out servants to deliver the invitations. But sadly not all respond accepting the invitation.

You who have actually gotten married understand this. People have various reasons for refusing the invitation. Those who respond favorably are the ones who are chosen to attend the wedding feast, hence "the many are called and few are chosen". Those who are chosen are also predestined because they were on the initial "call" list, but it was up to them to accept the call to invitation. Those unwilling to accept the invitation are considered unworthy and are crossed off the list. This is how predestination and free will are connected. The unworthy were also predestined for the wedding feast, but they in their free will rejected the invitation and will not attend, even though it was the will of the Groom's Father that they attend.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


And of course God has foreknowledge, He knows who will accept the invitation, and He also knows who will not, but He does not undermine man's free will to accept or refuse the invitation.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:01 am

shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

As I said earlier, If predestination and freedom of choice both exist, then they cannot be mutually exclusive.

When we examine a penny we should observe it has a heads side and a tails side.
The sides are opposite.
If one is looking at the tails side, then one is not observing the heads side.
Observing one attribute of the penny does not mean the opposite attribute does not exist.

When we examine an action we should observe it has a predestination side and a freedom-of-choice side.
The sides are opposite.
If one is looking at the predestination side, then one is not observing the freedom-of-choice side.
Observing one attribute of the action does not mean the opposite attribute does not exist.

Keith

I'm not sure that is the rule when looking at truth itself Keith. As a matter of Philosophy, that could be a good rule, but not when applied to an Action of God.
For example, we known that God is very capable of hate, but He Himself IS Not "Hate". Speaking of the opposite (side of the coin) though, God IS "Love".


God is Light, and in Him is no darkness at all. No second side. So not a valid rule. And that's a good thing!

:grin:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:40 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The unworthy were also predestined for the wedding feast, but they in their free will rejected the invitation and will not attend, even though it was the will of the Groom's Father that they attend.


:humm:

Can you prove that the "unworthy" were "predestined for the wedding feast" with Scripture?

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:He does not undermine man's free will to accept or refuse the invitation.


I believe in this in part - and only as it relates to CHOICE. But this in my very humble opinion does NOT apply to predestination.

Let me ask you this......

Do you think that Paul had a Choice after the OVERWHELMING Power of God was present before him on his journey to Damascus?

Or do you think that Judas actually had a Choice on whether or not he would betray Christ?
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:58 am

Hope you don't mind my being able to answer this question also mr. B.

I believe that both Paul and Judas had a free will choice, yes.
God simply knew from the beginning ,what their choices would be.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:37 pm

Mr. Baldy and Shorttrib,

I was not referring to Gods actions. God is not of this world nor is he subject to creation.

I am talking about man's actions being both predestined and a free choice at the same time.
Hence a man's action is like a penny, a free will attribute and a predestination attribute.

It is a matter of which perspective we are observing.
Are we observing or discussing the predestination attribute?
Are we observing or discussing the free-will attribute?

When we read scriptures about predestination, we are reading about a predestination perspective.
When we read scriptures about free-to-choose, we are reading about a free-to-choose perspective.
It is about which perspective/attribute of an action we wish to discuss.

When we read about Pharaoh, we are given both perspectives;
One where God hardens Pharaoh's heart and one where Pharaoh hardens his own heart.
We have scriptures discussing Pharaoh's actions from both perspectives.

What is interesting about salvation is what salvation means.
In part, salvation means freedom from enslavement to sin.
But that freedom comes from belief, not actions (actions are a consequence of belief).
Consequently, one's actions can be severely limited by enslavement to sin; but
One's belief is not limited by enslavement to sin.

God has limited our free will, enslaving us to sin, so He may show mercy.
Romans 11:32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


While a man is enslaved to sin, he cannot choose to do the good he wants to do.
Romans 7:19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.


Our freedom to choose is lost to enslavement.
Our freedom to believe is not affected by that enslavement.

Romans 7:19 is talking about those predestined to be saved.
Why? Because those who prefer evil do not suffer the difficulty of not being able to do the good they want to do.
They are enslaved to sin, but they do not feel enslaved because they are doing what they choose to do.
Because they are doing what they choose to do, they do not find themselve in a situation where thay are not able to do the things they want to do. They are actually able to do the evil they want to do.
Thus is Romans 7:19 addressing those who are predestined for salvation.

But those predestined children of God cannot be revealed while they are enslaved, for their actions make them appear as if they are children of evil. Thus must we wait, because an enemy sewed bad seed in the field with the good, for maturity, the bearing of fruit expressed through the actions of those who are now free to do good, before we can tell the harvest from the weed.

Thus we see that even those who will choose salvation are predestined.


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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:01 pm

shorttribber wrote:Hope you don't mind my being able to answer this question also mr. B.


No Shorty - not at all :grin:

shorttribber wrote:I believe that both Paul and Judas had a free will choice, yes. God simply knew from the beginning ,what their choices would be.


Shorty - I believe what you are describing in your aforementioned comment, derives from an Arminian view point of Salvation. If this is true, then I would first ask:

How can you reconcile the concept of our God, who is in Total Control & Absolute Control of the Universe m- with your idea that mere humans can actually choose whether or not to accept, or reject His offer of Salvation?

I would say that an such an idea most certainly questions God's Sovereignty.

And Secondly - as it relates to the Apostle Paul...........

With the absolute AWESOME POWER of the Holy Spirit of God that Paul encountered on his way to Damascus......

Could Paul, at the point that the Holy Spirit most certainly entered, and Overpowered his life at that moment, invoke his "so-called" Free Will, in order to reject God - even though God desired his Salvation?

Please think about this very, very deeply before you respond.

Now Lastly, as far as Judas...........

Scripture declares Judas as the "son of perdition" - which means: "one who is assigned: “eternal damnation” or “utter destruction.”

This was in God's predetermined Plan - so again, did Judas have a Choice?

Please keep what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 9:22
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:09 pm

Just to pop in here for a moment . . .

It is God's Absolute Sovereign Decree, which none can overturn, that man be given a choice.

IMO.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:48 pm

mark s wrote:Just to pop in here for a moment . . .

It is God's Absolute Sovereign Decree, which none can overturn, that man be given a choice.

IMO.

:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:04 pm

Just to be clear.

Choices are the options available.
Decisions are expressed though which choice(s) we choose.
Once the decision(s) are made, that is, when those decisions become past tense, we assign ownership of the option(s) decided upon to the person making the decision.
For example:
Choose from the choices available: A, B, or C.
If one decides upon choice, 'C', Then we say: "you have chosen 'C'", or "'C' is your choice".
Through these statements we label one's decision using the same label that describes the option(s) chosen.
When we do this, we now have two things labelled 'C', the original option 'C' and the decision to choose 'C'.

So, when we discuss choices, we need to be clear about what we are talking about.
Are we talking about the options available or are we talking about past tense decisions described using the option label?

So Why did I post this?
Because, if man is given 'a choice', he only has one available option. Who can blame him for his decision?

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:43 am

keithareilly wrote:Because, if man is given 'a choice', he only has one available option. Who can blame him for his decision?


A Sovereign God.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:07 am

Mr. Baldy,

Yeh. Yeh. Yeh. I know. I posted that earlier.

I am more interested in your response to ...
Thus we see that even those who will choose salvation are predestined.


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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:15 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

Yeh. Yeh. Yeh. I know. I posted that earlier.

I am more interested in your response to ...
Thus we see that even those who will choose salvation are predestined.


Keith


Keith, I don't agree with that statement.

Scripture is very, very clear that there are those who are Predestined - and those who have been given an open invitation to inherit Eternal Life.

In my very humble opinion - I don't believe that because one has "chosen" to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior that they were "Predestined". Yes, God in His Foreknowledge knew that they would accept the invitation, however predestination is an altogether different category. This is why I gave the examples of a few men in Scripture that were clearly predestined. I don't believe that they had a "Choice". Not that they would have wanted a choice anyway.

Let's take Paul for an example... In Acts 9:15 - Jesus clearly instructs Ananias to "GO" and meet Saul, because he was His Chosen Instrument. Saul, of course later became Paul - and he had absolutely no idea about what was about to happen to him prior to Jesus intervening in his life. Moses is yet another example.

So yes, there are those who have been Sovereignly Chosen by God Himself. They should be very, very grateful. I view those as the ones who were "predestined". There are MANY who are called by God - but not necessarily Chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

Again, in my very humble opinion I think that many make the mistake not realizing that when it comes to Salvation, they want to put God in a Box and try to figure Him out in their own understanding and/or terms. Why can't it be that there are those who are Predestined and those who have Choice? Why does it have to be one or the other?
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:54 pm

Mr. Baldy wrote,
Why can't it be that there are those who are Predestined and those who have Choice? Why does it have to be one or the other?


This is exactly my point.
It is not EITHER predestined OR choice. It is predestined AND choice.

From you arguments, I suspect you would prefer...
Predestined OR choice. Without the word EITHER.

Predestined OR choice without the word EITHER, includes the following possibilities:
1) Only Predestined, but not choice
2) Both Predestined and choice simultaniously
3) Not Predestined, only choice

Personally, I think the answer is number 2 which is Predestined AND choice.
I do recognize that sometimes, choosing against predestination can be so costly, we don't think there is any choice.

Note to Readers:
A statement with the words "Either" and "Or" is called an "EXCLUSIVE OR".
A statement with the word "Or" without the word "Either" is called an "INCLUSIVE OR".


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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:23 am

Mr. Baldy,

From the statement: Many are called, few are chosen.

Do you view this as: some are called, others are chosen?

Do you view this as: of those many who are called only few of them called are chosen?

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:02 am

keithareilly wrote:It is not EITHER predestined OR choice. It is predestined AND choice.


Hi Keith,

Perhaps I did not articulate my understanding correctly. I believe that there are two groups of people that will inherit Eternal Life - and they are those who have been Sovereignly Chosen by God before the foundation of the universe. These are the "Predestined". The other group are those who will accept the invitation of God when He calls them through His Spirit.

The Holy Spirit "calls" many - but not "all" in this calling will inherit eternal life. Some will not be chosen from those who have been called. The one's who will be chosen from the call, are those whom the Father have given to the Son. This I believe differs from those who have been Predestined - in that although a part of the calling by the Holy Spirit they were Sovereignly Chosen. You can read more about this in: Matthew 22:14 and John 6 & John 10.

I believe that you think that Predestination and Choice are one and the same - well I do not.

Some, meaning the Calvinist believe that Salvation is ALL through Predestination. And the Armenians think that ALL have a choice. Well I think that they are BOTH wrong.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:31 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

From the statement: Many are called, few are chosen.

Do you view this as: some are called, others are chosen?

Do you view this as: of those many who are called only few of them called are chosen?

Keith


Keith have you ever have read the Parable of the Sower - (Matthew 13: 1-23)?
I'm sure you have, but again I highly recommend it.

What I mean is that there are many, many, who are called and receive the Word of God with gladness - but various things in this life cause many of them to fall by the wayside. They were apparently called, but not given to the Son by the Father. God knew their hearts.

These are not identified in Scripture as the "chosen" ones or those who were "Predestined" - but the ones that the Father has Sovereignly given to the Son. I further believe that these are the one's who have "Free Will" or the freedom to reject or accept Christ. Because they accepted the invitation of Salvation.

The Parable of the Sower is a very good analogy of what I am attempting to explain.

Please keep in mind that I am not dogmatic about this view whatsoever. I have a Calvinist friend who wholeheartedly disagrees with me. :mrgreen:
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:39 am

Mr. Baldy wrote
I believe that you think that Predestination and Choice are one and the same - well I do not.

Some, meaning the Calvinist believe that Salvation is ALL through Predestination. And the Armenians think that ALL have a choice. Well I think that they are BOTH wrong.


No, I don't think Predestination and Choice are in one in the same.
The are fundamentally opposite; I cannot turn left and turn right at the same time.

I do think those who are predestined also choose.
I think predestination and freedom of choice work together, in concert, to ensure Mercy while preserving Justice.

Regarding Calvanist vs Armenians, I would say they or both correct at the same time about all people.

And Yes, I have read the parable of the sewer. I referred to that in my January 11 post (4:37pm).


I have to say I am enjoying a viewpoint that is different from the Calvinist and the Armenian while still being different than my own. It is rare to get a new perspective. Thank you.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:58 am

Mr. Baldy, from your posts, I still don't think you understand what I am saying. I'll try again.

I can place a small hollow ball in my hand and close my hand around the ball enclosing that ball completely within my hand. Enclosed within my hand are both its inside and its outside. The inside of the ball is the opposite of the outside of the ball and the two attributes are opposite and do not occupy the same spacetime. Nevertheless, the ball within my hand possesses, at the same time, two opposing attributes, inside and outside.

If I could hold the concept of salvation in my mind, I should contain within my mind, two attributes of salvation that oppose each other, Choice and Predestination, just like the concepts of inside and outside oppose each other.

Saying a individual person is EITHER saved through choice OR saved through predestination is like saying I cannot have the same ball in my hand and expect that individual ball to have both an inside and an outside. This kind of thinking says: If the ball has an inside it cannot have an outside. If the ball has an outside, it cannot have an inside. This is not logical. If an concept has a front, it has a back. If a concept has a top, it has a bottom.

If a concept possesses an attribute that has an opposing attribute, then that concept must possess both, the attribute and the opposing attribute.

If predestination is an attribute of salvation, the freedom of choice must also be an attribute of salvation.


After I wrote this, it occurred to me that perhaps what you are say is: While what I said is true, an individual who experiences salvation can experience salvation through either of its two opposing attributes; not necessarily through both attributes simultaneously. This is food for thought.



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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:10 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
The unworthy were also predestined for the wedding feast, but they in their free will rejected the invitation and will not attend, even though it was the will of the Groom's Father that they attend.


:humm:

Can you prove that the "unworthy" were "predestined for the wedding feast" with Scripture?

Matthew 22:2–8
2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.
3 “And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.
4 “Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.” ’
5 “But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,
6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.
7 “But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
8 “Then he *said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.


Those who were found unworthy were invited, by virtue of the invitation, they are predestined to enter the wedding feast AKA the Kingdom of God. Their refusal to come, is what deemed them unworthy to attend the feast. Their choice to refuse the invitation, the predestination if you will, is in fact what caused them to be unworthy to attend. That and their mistreatment of those who were sent to deliver the invitation.

God predestined them to come into the kingdom, it was His desire that they enter into it. It was His will that they respond favorably otherwise they would not have been invited to begin with. You would never invite people to the wedding of your Son who you did not want or expect to attend.

Of course this passage is dealing with the nation of Israel, and their refusal to see Christ for who He was, and how God extended the invitation to others instead. But I believe it also applies to salvation in general.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:22 am

Mr Baldy,

This is why I think both predestination and freedom of choice are real and work together to accomplish God's agenda.

In the following verse we see God telling us the outcome and that God is going to harden Pharaoh's heart to ensure the outcome. An example of predestination, told before it happens, told that God will harden Pharaoh's heart to cause it to happen.
Exodus:4:21-23
21The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23“So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.”’”


In the following verse in 1st Samuel that says Pharaoh and the Egyptians hardened their own hearts.
1 Samuel 6:6
6“Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He had severely dealt with them, did they not allow the people to go, and they departed?

We have two scriptures describing the events of the exodus. One says God hardened Pharoaoh's heart, the other says Pharaoh and the Egyptians hardened their own hearts.

Both scriptures are true. Therefore, we do not need to choose between freedom-of-choice and predestination. These scriptures demonstrate the ocurr simultaneously.



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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:25 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,

This is why I think both predestination and freedom of choice are real and work together to accomplish God's agenda.

In the following verse we see God telling us the outcome and that God is going to harden Pharaoh's heart to ensure the outcome. An example of predestination, told before it happens, told that God will harden Pharaoh's heart to cause a specified result.
Exodus:4:21-23
21The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23“So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.”’”


In the following verse in 1st Samuel we see Pharaoh and the Egyptians hardened their own hearts.
1 Samuel 6:6
6“Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He had severely dealt with them, did they not allow the people to go, and they departed?

We have two scriptures describing the events of the exodus. One says God hardened Pharoaoh's heart, the other says Pharaoh and the Egyptians hardened their own hearts.

Both scriptures are true. Therefore, we do not need to choose between freedom-of-choice and predestination. These scriptures show us they ocurr simultaneously.



Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:31 am

Hi Keith,

Very interesting input. And I can say that I thank you for your explanation! :grin:

Here is what I question:
keithareilly wrote:I do think those who are predestined also choose.


Now, I don't think that those who are Predestined have a Choice - although if given a Choice, they would most certainly choose. Now, let me explain...........

This all goes back to the Foreknowledge of God. I gave the example of Moses and Paul - however, I went further into explaining Paul. Again, when Paul was on his way to Damascus he had absolutely no idea that Christ would come into his life. When the absolute Power of the Holy Spirit spoke to him - there is no way he could deny. He was Overpowered by the Spirit of the Living God. As I mentioned before Jesus told Ananias - Go! to Paul because he was "Chosen".
(Acts 9:15) Paul did NOT chose Jesus - but Jesus CHOSE him.

Another example I gave were the 12 Apostles. Please look at what Jesus said to them:

John 15:16 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16) You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.


Now, I want to give you, and those who are reading an astounding piece of Scripture that has always troubled me:

Luke 8:26-39 - New King James Version (NKJV)

A Demon-Possessed Man Healed

26) Then they sailed to the country of the Gadarenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27) And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28) When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!” 29) For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness. 30) Jesus asked him, saying, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,”because many demons had entered him. 31) And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss. 32) Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them. 33) Then the demons went out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake and drowned. 34) When those who fed them saw what had happened, they fled and told it in the city and in the country. 35) Then they went out to see what had happened, and came to Jesus, and found the man from whom the demons had departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed and in his right mind. And they were afraid. 36) They also who had seen it told them by what means he who had been demon-possessed was healed. 37) Then the whole multitude of the surrounding region of the Gadarenes asked Him to depart from them, for they were seized with great fear. And He got into the boat and returned.

38) Now the man from whom the demons had departed begged Him that he might be with Him. But Jesus sent him away, saying, 39) “Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you.” And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.


Ok, in the aforementioned passage of Scripture I mentioned the man who identified himself as Legion.
If one notices, Legion was cleaned by Christ - and made Whole. Yet he begged Christ to "be with Him" But Christ "sent him away".

So I have always questioned this. WHY did Jesus send this man away after making him Whole? Why did he send Legion away after he begged Christ to be with Him?

Was there something about this man, and who he is, even though Christ had made him Whole represent what is known about being Predestined and Choice? We certainly understand that it is about the Foreknowledge of God.

Just food for thought........... :mrgreen:
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:36 am

keithareilly wrote:I have to say I am enjoying a viewpoint that is different from the Calvinist and the Armenian while still being different than my own. It is rare to get a new perspective. Thank you.


Thank you as well :mrgreen:

Really enjoying the dialogue.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:45 am

Hi RT,

As always, I most certainly enjoy your insight. But the below comment you made - I wholeheartedly disagree with:

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:God predestined them to come into the kingdom, it was His desire that they enter into it.


Let me say that Predestination has to do solely with Salvation. The aforementioned example you gave above does not equate to "predestination". This has more to do with an open invitation to Salvation - which is CHOICE.

Respectfully, the Two ( Predestination; Choice) should not be confused. God may have ordained those found Unworthy to come to the wedding feast - but they were most certainly NOT Predestined as it relates to Salvation.

I believe - and respectfully in my opinion - in you mentioning that: "God predestined them to come into the kingdom" is in error, and not a good interpretation.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:51 am

keithareilly wrote:Both scriptures are true. Therefore, we do not need to choose between freedom-of-choice and predestination. These scriptures show us they ocurr simultaneously.


Keith......

Predestination relates to SALVATION in mans souls and Eternal Life. NOT what God has ordained or decreed will happen to bring about the Salvation in the Believers Life.

We must not confuse this issue.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:08 am

Mr. Baldy,


The legion guy could have chosen to ignore Christ and just tagged along with all the others following him.
He did not. I suspect, instead he listened and obeyed Christ.
Jesus CHOSE this man to be cleansed of Satan's influence.

Second:
Jesus had a use for this man. Jesus told him what He wanted from him.
This man is more like us, not one of the twelve, but told to go and tell about Jesus and what He has done for him.
Chosen for a lesser thing does not mean not chosen.




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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:58 am

Mr. Baldy,

Matthew 7:13-14
13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Both Destruction and Life are destinations to which the aforementioned gates and roads lead.
Salvation has to do with: Destination (Life or Destruction)
Predestination is about which road God chooses for us to travel.
Choice is about which road we choose to travel.

With Regard to John 15:16. Very Good Point. I am going to have to contemplate that one.
It does appear to say predestinatoin and choice do not have to happen simultaniously.
It does not say they can not happen simultaneously; but, it does say they are not required to happen simultaneously.

Hmph, looks like I am going to have to change my long standing opinion on this one.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:42 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,


The legion guy could have chosen to ignore Christ and just tagged along with all the others following him.
He did not. I suspect, instead he listened and obeyed Christ.
Jesus CHOSE this man to be cleansed of Satan's influence.

Second:
Jesus had a use for this man. Jesus told him what He wanted from him.
This man is more like us, not one of the twelve, but told to go and tell about Jesus and what He has done for him.
Chosen for a lesser thing does not mean not chosen.




Keith



Keith, you are absolutely missing the point I was trying to make with this whole illustration here.

It appears as if you did not read the story. When Jesus first made contact with this man - he was not himself. The demons spoke through him. They even spoke to Jesus Himself.

Jesus removed the demons from this man during the course of the mission that He was on. His contact with the man, and removing those demons had nothing to do about Predestination or Choice as far as the man's decision.

What I wanted you and others who may be reading this to get, is the fact that AFTER the man was clothed, and in his right mind - he wanted to "be with" Christ. He actually BEGGED HIM - and he was rejected. Jesus didn't even allow the man to follow Him. So why is that? This is where I believe that Predestination and Choice may apply.

Again, please take a look at this passage of Scripture:

Romans 9:15-24- New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19) You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23) And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


The aforementioned passage of Scripture very Clearly speaks of those whom He Foreknew (the Predestined) and those who were "prepared for destruction". So, I wondered if the man who was identified as Legion at that time was not allowed to follow Christ - even though he begged Him because it had something to do with who he was? I mention this because just because Christ removed many demons from him, does not mean that he was Chosen, or Predestined as it relates to Salvation and Eternal Life.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:28 pm

Mr. Baldy,

I read the story. I just don't see what you see.

I don't think or believe that: if I ask God for something and He tells me "No", that it means He is rejecting me.
He is rejecting my request, not me.

We don't know why Jesus told the man "No". So, any assumption we make is just that, an assumption.
Any conclusions we arrive at based upon that assumptions are non-verifiable conclusions.

So, I just don't try to make an assumption then arrive at a conclusion.
Instead, I just say, "I don't know."

With regard to predestination. I have no argument against predestination; Predestination is real and true.

This I will say again to you.
Your posting of John 15:16 does in fact negate my long standing position that predestination and freedom-of-choice must occur at the same time. This does not mean they cannot occur at the same time; but, John 15:16 says most distinctly they are not required to occur simultaneously. Indeed it indicates that predestination can and does result in salvation without any choice ever being made by the individual.


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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:06 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
What I wanted you and others who may be reading this to get, is the fact that AFTER the man was clothed, and in his right mind - he wanted to "be with" Christ. He actually BEGGED HIM - and he was rejected. Jesus didn't even allow the man to follow Him. So why is that?


Mark 5:18-20 ESV

As he was getting into the boat, the man who had been possessed with demons begged him that he might be with him. And he did not permit him but said to him, “Go home to your friends and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him, and everyone marveled.


Jesus wanted a missionary to the region.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:14 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy, from your posts, I still don't think you understand what I am saying. I'll try again.

I can place a small hollow ball in my hand and close my hand around the ball enclosing that ball completely within my hand. Enclosed within my hand are both its inside and its outside. The inside of the ball is the opposite of the outside of the ball and the two attributes are opposite and do not occupy the same spacetime. Nevertheless, the ball within my hand possesses, at the same time, two opposing attributes, inside and outside.

If I could hold the concept of salvation in my mind, I should contain within my mind, two attributes of salvation that oppose each other, Choice and Predestination, just like the concepts of inside and outside oppose each other.

Saying a individual person is EITHER saved through choice OR saved through predestination is like saying I cannot have the same ball in my hand and expect that individual ball to have both an inside and an outside. This kind of thinking says: If the ball has an inside it cannot have an outside. If the ball has an outside, it cannot have an inside. This is not logical. If an concept has a front, it has a back. If a concept has a top, it has a bottom.

If a concept possesses an attribute that has an opposing attribute, then that concept must possess both, the attribute and the opposing attribute.

If predestination is an attribute of salvation, the freedom of choice must also be an attribute of salvation.


After I wrote this, it occurred to me that perhaps what you are say is: While what I said is true, an individual who experiences salvation can experience salvation through either of its two opposing attributes; not necessarily through both attributes simultaneously. This is food for thought.



Keith


Hi Keith,

But you cannot make black white. You cannot be outside, and inside. You can be outside of this, while inside of that, but you cannot be both inside and outside the ball. You can enclose them both in something larger, but this physical demonstration of spatial relationship does not make the inside the same as the outside.

Either I choose first, or God chooses first.

To me, trying to reconcile two mutually exclusive viewpoints requires a suspension of belief in logic and orderly reasoning. And I don't think that's what God intends.

Personally, the answers to these questions all make sense. I haven't found a single Scripture which actually supports, when you dig down into to, the notion that God does not in fact allow man to choose. What I read teaches me that God loves, and wants all people. That's why He made us to begin with. Not to just throw away, but to love and be loved. All of us.

That's what I think, anyway!

:grin:

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:57 pm

Hi Mark,

If predestination and freedom of choice were mutually exclusive, then you would be correct. I would be suspending reason and logic. My point is this: they are not mutually exclusive.

If I travel down a road to where it ends, teeing into another road, at the end of the road I can turn right or left. Both a right turn and a left turn exist in front of me. The fact that I cannot turn both right and left does not change the fact that there exists in front of me both a right turn and left turn.

Predestination is a decision God made before the foundation of the world, before we existed.
Choice is what we make during our life times.
Predestination of you and I happened so long ago that we did not even exist when it happened, we experience the affects of that predestination for sure. But the predestination of an individual occured before the world was founded.

When we make a choice, we make that choice during our life time, not before we exist. Making a choice does not mean that the results of predestination are nullified. Predestination is about one day arriving at a destination determined before we were created. Making choices during our lifetime may cause us to reach a destination. It might very well be that sometimes, our choices merely accomplish the predestination set in place before we were born.

If you still have trouble, consider Newtons Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and oposite reaction.
One might ask the question, If the Third Law is True, If for every action there is an equal action opposing that action, how can anything be set in motion?

Just because forces oppose each other equally and oppositely, does not mean they cannot work together to bring forth a result, such as motion.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:23 pm

keithareilly wrote:Hi Mark,

If predestination and freedom of choice were mutually exclusive, then you would be correct. I would be suspending reason and logic. My point is this: they are not mutually exclusive.


Hi Keith,

Let's use your road example.

Either you can make a choice of turn directions, or you cannot. If you can, then either option is available to you. If only one option is available to you, through whatever method or mechanism, then you do not have a choice.

If the choice was predestined, that is to say, if you were limited ahead of time to only be able to turn a certain way, even though there may be the appearance of a choice, such a choice would not actually exist.

So if you are predestined to choose to believe, your choosing is simply acting out the choice of the one who predestined that choice. So it was not your choice after all, it was the choice of the one who predestined.

Newtons Third Law.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

That is to say that in the physical realm, physical forces exerted are always met with equal yet opposing force.

One of Newton's examples was "if you press your finger against a rock, your finger is pressed by the rock.

But physical laws of motion and force don't really describe the spiritual realm, do they? Or can they be used to define God's activities?

One might ask the question, If the Third Law is True, If for every action there is an equal action opposing that action, how can anything be set in motion?


It's the only way something can be set in motion. It's like the robot in Interstellar says, "the only way you humans have figured out to get somewhere is to leave something behind".

But I don't think this is true of God.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:54 pm

Mark,

I don't really know what else to say.

In the following verse we see God telling us the outcome and that God is going to harden Pharaoh's heart to ensure the outcome. An example of predestination, told before it happens, told that God will harden Pharaoh's heart to cause it to happen.
Exodus:4:21-23
21The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23“So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.”’”


In the following verse in 1st Samuel we see Pharaoh and the Egyptians hardened their own hearts.
1 Samuel 6:6
6“Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He had severely dealt with them, did they not allow the people to go, and they departed?


Scripture talks about Pharaoh's heart being predestined to be hardened by God.
Scripture talks about Pharaoh hardening his own heart.
These are two opposing perspectives found in scripture describing who caused the hardening of Pharaoh's heart.
They are both true at the same time, else scripture is wrong.

Scripture provides an explicit example where an event(s) is BOTH predestined by God AND chosen by a person.
Therefore, Predestination and Freedom-Of-Choice CAN NOT be mutually exclusive concepts.



That is really all there is to it.

Edited
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:22 am

keithareilly wrote:Predestination is a decision God made before the foundation of the world, before we existed.Choice is what we make during our life times.


keithareilly wrote:But the predestination of an individual occured before the world was founded.


keithareilly wrote:When we make a choice, we make that choice during our life time, not before we exist.


keithareilly wrote:Making a choice does not mean that the results of predestination are nullified.


keithareilly wrote:they are not mutually exclusive.


:a3: AND :a3:

Very, beautifully put Keith!

I agree with what you written 100% :mrgreen:
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:32 am

keithareilly wrote:
Scripture talks about Pharaoh's heart being predestined to be hardened by God.
Scripture talks about Pharaoh hardening his own heart.
These are two opposing perspectives found in scripture describing who caused the hardening of Pharaoh's heart.
They are both true at the same time, else scripture is wrong.

Scripture provides an explicit example where an event(s) is BOTH predestined by God AND chosen by a person.
Therefore, Predestination and Freedom-Of-Choice CAN NOT be mutually exclusive concepts.



That is really all there is to it.

Edited
Keith


Hi Keith,

I think you have to look at God's criteria for hardening Pharaoh's heart. Was it because God had completely independent reasons, and simply chose to do it, having nothing at all to do with Pharaoh? Or was it the Divine Response to the choices Pharaoh had made?

Pharaoh hardened his hard - made it wooden - and so then God hardened it - made it stone - to insure Pharaoh went all the way down the road to the final plague, and subsequent destruction of Egypt's army.

We'll see this again, foretold in 2 Thessalonians, God gives a delusion, so they will believe the lie. But it will be because they didn't want the truth.

I find that Scripture describes men's choices, and God's response.

Much like in the current age. In Jesus' death, God reconciled the world to Himself. It's like God saying, "This is My choice, to have reconciliation with humanity." Now we have to choose. Do I want to reconcile to God?

For those that choose not to, there's no guarantee of another chance later in life. Or so it seems to me.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:56 pm

Hi Mark,

You know, I would like to believe that is all true.
If God did not tell Moses before he went back to Egypt that God was going to harden Pharaoh's heart and that he would do so to keep Pharaoh from letting the people go, I would agree with you.

Exodus:4:21-23
21The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23“So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.”’”


It's all pretty frightening. God tells Moses to tell Pharaoh to let the people go. Then, God, instead of making Pharaoh listen to him, hardens Pharaoh's heart to prevent Pharaoh from doing the very thing God told Moses to tell Pharaoh to do. Then because Pharaoh did not do what God instructed Moses to tell him to do, God kills off the firstborn. Not only this, But God tells us this is what He is going to do before Moses ever goes back to Egypt.

Pretty frightening really.
No wonder He is called the "Lord of Armies".

Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby mark s on Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:48 pm

Hi Keith,

You may be interested in looking at the 2 different words used that are translated "harden" in the account of the Israel's deliverance from Egypt. The difference in nuance is very interesting to me. Also where each one appears in the account.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:52 pm

Mark,

I would be interested.

I am not a linguist of any kind. Would you post them here?
If it shows my view is wrong, it is best for everyone to see.

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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:05 pm

mark s wrote:I find that Scripture describes men's choices, and God's response.


Scripture also very clearly describes Predestination - lest we forget.

Again, let us be reminded of what Paul wrote here:

Mr Baldy wrote: Romans 9:15-24 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”

18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.19) You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23) And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


There are MANY believers that do not like the aforementioned passage of Scripture - as it very clearly identified that the ELECT have no CHOICE. It is GOD whom has Chose......
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:35 pm

keithareilly wrote:If God did not tell Moses before he went back to Egypt that God was going to harden Pharaoh's heart and that he would do so to keep Pharaoh from letting the people go, I would agree with you.


Hi Keith,

I get what you are saying....... but don't be so easily swayed. You have given SOUND doctrine that can truly be supported with Scripture as it relates Predestination & Choice.

Romans 8:29-30 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.


Please FIND CHOICE in the aforementioned passage of Scripture :humm:
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:58 pm

Mr. Baldy.

We humans want to think we are equal with God.
And why should we not? after all, are we not God's children? (rhetorical)
Consequently, we think God should fit our definition of just, not His definition of just.

It is the same thing going on in politics, it all depend on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

The whole discussion about predestination and freedom-of-choice is not really about
predestination and freedom-of-choice, it is about the definition of just.

If God is just, how can predestination be true?
The entire question arises because our definition of 'just' is our definition of 'just'.
There is no sovereignty involved in our definition of just.
Why Not? Because, we consider ourselves His equals; therefore No Sovereignty involved in our definition of just.
Our definition of just is about equality, even equality with God.

Most people will disagree with this.
But, the question "If God is just, how can predestination be true?" reveals the conflict itself.
The conclusion that "If predestination is true, then God is not just" is a consequence of the wrong definition of either 'predestination' or 'just'.
We have given some pretty good examples of predestination.
The inability to accept those examples is a consequence of an incorrect definition of 'just'.

The presumed equality with God is revealed by the question "How can God predestine someone?"
This question fails to recognize the Sovereignty of God over those whom are predestined.
Built into the question is the assumption that God will treat us, as His equals, instead of, as His creation.

Here is some food for thought. Our pets are not our creation; we do not treat our pets as our equals.
Man created washing machines.
How do we treat our washing machine compared to how we treat our pets?
We treat our pets better than we treat our creations (washing machine);
But, we certainly don't treat our pets as equals.

Why should God treat us any different than we treat a washing machine?


Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:15 pm

keithareilly wrote:The whole discussion about predestination and freedom-of-choice is not really about predestination and freedom-of-choice, it is about the definition of just.


keithareilly wrote:There is no sovereignty involved in our definition of just.



Keith, I couldn't agree more. As a matter of fact I would even venture to say that most try to place God into a BOX to fit their own understanding. I have been, and probably still am at times GUILTY of this.

Dealing with Predestination is a very hard pill to swallow - yet very True. Especially when one feels that it is unfair.

I have to admit, reading Romans 9 almost makes me think that those who have a Calvinistic view are correct - that is until I read other passages of Scripture that very clearly include Choice as well.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:01 am

keithareilly wrote:Mark,

I would be interested.

I am not a linguist of any kind. Would you post them here?
If it shows my view is wrong, it is best for everyone to see.

Keith


I am still interested.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:28 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Let's ask some questions:
If death did not exist in the world until after Adam disobeyed, what was Adam's expected life span? Infinity!


Only if Adam chose to eat of the Tree of Life and we are not told he did so.

Given an infinite amount of time, what was the probability that Adam would choose to eat of the Fruit? 100 percent!
So if there is a 100 percent chance that Adam would choose to eat of the fruit, then it was predestined that Adam would eat of the fruit.


The very essence of a choice is that one has the freedom to make decisions to determine the best outcome among a number of possibilities.

... "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely... 

Thus Adam had the freedom to choose which tree he would partake of on any given day at any given time. Instead, he used his freedom to choose to ignore the only boundary God gave him.

If Adam's sin was predestined by God....then God is to blame for Adam's sin.

We have scripture that is evidence (Gen. 3:15, Isaiah 7:14; 9:6 ) that a Savior would come for "whosoever shall...."


The idea, Adam must eat of the tree of life to remain living prior to sinning, fails the test of reason.
Because Death did not enter this world until after Adam sinned,
It is not reasonable to think Adam would could experience death prior to sinning.
Death is a consequence of sin. Sin brings forth Death. No Sin, No Death. We all know that. Hence Christ.
The logical and reasonable conclusion is: if sin was not present in this world, Adam would not have died.

Adam was given Freedom of Choice.
He chose not to eat of the tree for however long he lived before he ate of the tree.
His not eating of the tree was his choice. His eating of the tree was his choice.
This is the evidence Adam was Free-to-choose.


Adam was going to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Genesis 2:15-17
15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Notice those do not say "If" you eat you will die. It says "in the day you eat from it".
This is saying Adam is going to eat of the Tree.
There is no "if/then" about Adam eating of the tree; There is only "When" Adam eats of the tree.


So, How can it be, that Adam, who was free to choose, was definitely going to eat of the tree?
Because this world is governed by mathmatical principles set in place by God.
Those principles dictate a 100 percent probability Adam was going to eat of the tree through his own free will.
100 Percent probability means there is no chance it cannot happen regardless of Adams freedom to choose.
Adam was going to eat of the tree just as described by Gen 2:17 and just as described by mathmatics.
It was going to happen. Not "If" but "When"

Freedom of choice is not mutually exclusive of predestination.
This is the truth we see in the scriptures.
Stop thinking we must choose between them.
They both exist in scripture. Multiple examples have been provided.
Renew your mind.

Keith
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:05 pm

keithareilly wrote:The idea, Adam must eat of the tree of life to remain living prior to sinning, fails the test of reason.
Because Death did not enter this world until after Adam sinned,
It is not reasonable to think Adam would could experience death prior to sinning.
Death is a consequence of sin. Sin brings forth Death. No Sin, No Death. We all know that. Hence Christ.
The logical and reasonable conclusion is: if sin was not present in this world, Adam would not have died.



Keith

The bible is silent on whether or not physical death was a possibility for mankind before it is recorded in scripture.

Genesis 2:17 introduces to us that if we sin we will die the second death at some future time.

Ezekiel 17, from memory, also tells us that those destined to die the second death can also be redeemed if they repent of their sin and will live and have eternal life. This chapter also tells us that if a righteous man sins and does not repent of his sin that his righteousness will be wiped away and remembered no more and if he will not or does not repent of his sin(s) that he will, some time in the future, die the second death.

The second death only becomes a reality at the time of the final judgement.

Physical death, i.e. when we lose the ability to sustain life and our organs fail us and stop doing what they are supposed to do to sustain life, has been everybody's outcome since Adam. God programmed manking to die a physical death since the beginning of creation.

Shalom
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:43 pm

keithareilly wrote:There is no "if/then" about Adam eating of the tree; There is only "When" Adam eats of the tree.


God's forewarning gave Adam the choice....and it was a based on God's knowledge of the consequences of ignoring His warning. Adam heard God's warning and chose to ignore/disobey it.

So, How can it be, that Adam, who was free to choose, was definitely going to eat of the tree?
Because this world is governed by mathmatical principles set in place by God


I might concede to a mathmatical principle set in place by God if you can show me scripture that states that.
.
Those principles dictate a 100 percent probability Adam was going to eat of the tree through his own free will.


I don't see that percentage principle in scripture, but here's what I do see. Right after God warned Adam of the consequences of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, He said it was not good for him to be alone.

Throughout the entire narrative of creation, scripture states that "it was good."

Gen_1:4  God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

Gen_1:10  God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:12  The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:18  and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:21  God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:25  God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:31  God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
Gen_2:9  Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen_2:17  but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
Gen_2:18  Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."


100 Percent probability means there is no chance it cannot happen regardless of Adams freedom to choose.
Adam was going to eat of the tree just as described by Gen 2:17 and just as described by mathmatics.
It was going to happen. Not "If" but "When"


One shouldn't have to be a mathematician to understand scripture, but one should study as a Berean to arrive at the understanding of some difficult passages. It's obvious in reading the above creation narrative, that God observed something had changed from "good" to "not good" and Adam needed help (ezer).

êzer H5828
From H5826; aid: - help.

azer H5826; A primitive root; to surround, that is, protect or aid: - help, succour.

Just as God warned His people what would happen if they elected a king like the surrounding pagan nations, God warned Adam of the consequences of choosing to disobey His words.

Adam was also negligent in keeping and guarding the garden as he allowed Satan to enter and the result was the deception of the very aid formed for Adam's descent from "good" to "not good."

God's grace manifested itself in that He did not want Adam to live forever in his "not good" spiritual state by partaking of the Tree of Life and prophesied that there would be a Messiah born from the seed of the woman.
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Re: Eternal Life

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:30 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
keithareilly wrote:There is no "if/then" about Adam eating of the tree; There is only "When" Adam eats of the tree.


God's forewarning gave Adam the choice....and it was a based on God's knowledge of the consequences of ignoring His warning. Adam heard God's warning and chose to ignore/disobey it.

So, How can it be, that Adam, who was free to choose, was definitely going to eat of the tree?
Because this world is governed by mathmatical principles set in place by God


I might concede to a mathmatical principle set in place by God if you can show me scripture that states that.
.
Those principles dictate a 100 percent probability Adam was going to eat of the tree through his own free will.


I don't see that percentage principle in scripture, but here's what I do see. Right after God warned Adam of the consequences of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, He said it was not good for him to be alone.

Throughout the entire narrative of creation, scripture states that "it was good."

Gen_1:4  God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

Gen_1:10  God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:12  The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:18  and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:21  God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:25  God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:31  God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
Gen_2:9  Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen_2:17  but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
Gen_2:18  Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."


100 Percent probability means there is no chance it cannot happen regardless of Adams freedom to choose.
Adam was going to eat of the tree just as described by Gen 2:17 and just as described by mathmatics.
It was going to happen. Not "If" but "When"


One shouldn't have to be a mathematician to understand scripture, but one should study as a Berean to arrive at the understanding of some difficult passages. It's obvious in reading the above creation narrative, that God observed something had changed from "good" to "not good" and Adam needed help (ezer).

êzer H5828
From H5826; aid: - help.

azer H5826; A primitive root; to surround, that is, protect or aid: - help, succour.

Just as God warned His people what would happen if they elected a king like the surrounding pagan nations, God warned Adam of the consequences of choosing to disobey His words.

Adam was also negligent in keeping and guarding the garden as he allowed Satan to enter and the result was the deception of the very aid formed for Adam's descent from "good" to "not good."

God's grace manifested itself in that He did not want Adam to live forever in his "not good" spiritual state by partaking of the Tree of Life and prophesied that there would be a Messiah born from the seed of the woman.


Some things.

First, I have already presented evidence Adam was free to choose. Arguing he chose to eat of the fruit is not an argument against his predestination. Arguing freedom of choice is not an argument against predestination.
We are in agreement, Adam chose to eat of the fruit he was told not to eat.

Mathematics. Mathematics is a common manmade language describing God's creation. Like English, French, etc., mathematics is a manmade language. When I say the world is governed by mathematic principles, I am saying the common language we invented to describe creation, describes creation such that Adam was predestined to choose to sin. I quoted a passage in the Bible from Genesis that says "when" not "if" Adam eats of the fruit. Of course, this is an English translation, so, I quoted a man's language when I quoted the passage; just as I showed another one of man's language, Mathematics, also says that Adam was going to choose to eat of the fruit. All I am doing is saying the language we invented to describe creation, Mathematics, is in agreement with verse that says "When" not "If" Adam eats the fruit.

It is an assumption Adam was negligent in his tending of the garden. If you have a verse that states Satan was not to be in the Garden of Eden and that it was Adam's responsibility to keep him out, please post that verse. If you cannot provide such a verse, then your assumption is not verifiable as either TRUE or FALSE; Therefore, any conclusion based upon that assumption also cannot be verified as true or false. I prefer not to build upon unverifiable assumptions. Adam is himself, alone, responsible for SIN entering this world. He is not responsible for Eve being deceived by Satan. I understand you, as a feminist, would like it to be his fault she was deceived; but, there is no evidence of such a thing. Adam sinned, not Eve. Adam has all the blame for which he is responsible. It is not Eve's fault in anyway. Adam disobeyed by choice, not Eve.

Your assumption Adam would have remained in a 'not good' spiritual state should he have eaten of the tree of life after eating the forbidden fruit is simply another assumption. If you have a verse that says this assumption is true, please provide that verse. Furthermore, the 'not good' spiritual state you quoted was resolved by God by creating people such as yourself. I am the first to admit, a woman can make my life a lot happier; women are a wonderful. So wonderful, Adam chose to obey a woman over God.

Keith
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