Speaking the Truth in Love

[mark s]

We've heard the passage:

Ephesians 4:11-16 NKJV
(11) And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
(12) for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
(13) till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
(14) that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
(15) but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
(16) from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

From the Amplified:

Ephesians 4:15 AMP
(15) Rather, let our lives lovingly express truth [in all things, speaking truly, dealing truly, living truly]. Enfolded in love, let us grow up in every way and in all things into Him Who is the Head, [even] Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

But what does this mean exactly?

Does it mean speaking in a pleasing way? Or something more?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Tevye]

I would suppose that one would need to determine what love is
and what the specific purpose for speaking to another would be.

Is love soft bunnies and teddy bears?
Sometimes it is.
Is love a tough and rugged road that must be traveled?
It is, if one wants to continue to be commited to another.

Is love abusive and harse against another person for the speaker's benefit?
No.
Love is patient and kind...
It waits for the best moment to express what needs to be said.
Sometimes that moment comes when the receiver doesn't expect it
and the conveyor determines that the best time to speak has arrived.
One would wonder though if there is ever a moment that is just right.

Love endures. it never fails, it survives in the midst of another's trials.
Love keeps trying however much it takes to get through to another.
This is exemplified in God's love for us, He never, ever will forsake us.
This is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us.
He persevered through all the years of human failure and still chose the cross.
This was the highest level of speaking in love, through His death and resurrection.
Sometimes love is painful, but in this there is healing that does come in sharing truth.

No greater love has a person than this, to lay down their life for a friend.
Does this mean be jello and let others walk all over us? No.
We lay down our expectations for ourselves, for the sake of others
yet we still remain the persons who God formed us in the womb to be
and the persons we have become by the experiences we have gone through
as a result of the path God had planned and destined for us to live through.
We take those experiences and share them, we give them to others as a gift.
Love in this, is allowing another to do whatever they will, whatever they choose
with the gift the other has given them without subterfuge, conditions, or expectations.

"Love is blindness, I don't want to see...." - U2
Love is a choice to turn the other cheek, to look the other way sometimes.
To allow another the room to grow on their own, and see themselves as they are, and will be.
Love is to see the potential of what they may become as they follow the truth in this love shared.

Love is tough, is must be to survive relationships.
There are the moments we must be clear, rugged and soft all at the same time.

When I was in basic training I experienced this in the drill sergeants, tough and yet they cared.
I expected them to always be as the ones I had seen on TV or in the movies, but they were more.
It wasn't just a job for them, it was their life and they embraced the whole experience very well.
Even in the hardest, the most difficult moments of training they stayed with us and encouraged us
however they had to for every person (only men at that time) to finish to the very end, to endure.

[4givenmuch]

Mark, I can say in my life, the Lord has shown me that it is speaking the truth FROM A PURE HEART. In other words, the reason I am actually letting the words come out of my mouth are because I care about the other person's relationship with God and the body, more than anything else. There should be no other motive, selfish ambition or manipulative plan, just that I want the other person to be right with Jesus.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

My own personal experience with "speaking the truth in love" has shown me that there are really very few people who own that kind of attitude. Most of us put our own agenda first, myself included (sadly). It takes some real self introspection to examine what we say and do and to judge ourselves rightly. I have been the victim of believers good intentions to correct me, but the reality is they had an agenda behind their attempt that served their own self interests, and I have to confess to my own shame, I have done the same, if not out rightly, I have done so in my heart.

I wonder how many of us truly treat other believers, not just our friends and family, but all believers as members of the same body, equally important to the cause of Christ?

Romans 12:1-21
1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.
10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;
11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer,
13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.
17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
20 “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Philippians 2:1-8
1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Christ our Lord had every reason to exalt Himself above mankind, but He humbled Himself to serve us. When we see our brother or sister in Christ heading down a path that we believe leads to or is in error, it is our love for them that compels us to warn them, that comes alongside them and tries to keep them from that error. Not with an attitude that we know better then they do, but with an attitude that serves their best interest, that we do not want them to be caused undo harm by going down a path that will ultimately hurt them in some way- especially spiritually. Acting like we know better, is really a form of pride, we want to be acknowledged for being right. But if we truly love one another it is not our pride that causes us to act but rather our compassion. A love that is demonstrated by our deeds- our words and actions, that embraces our fellow servants and loves them back onto the right path in order to help them grow and mature in Christ, it is our hope for their sanctification in Christ that motivates us, that is what Ephesians 4:11-16 is all about, our desire to see our fellow bond servants grow and mature in their faith.

That is not to say that there isn't a time and place for more severe action to be taken when a so-called brother or sister has rebelled and shrugged off attempts at correction, there is a place for discipline, but even that must be done with the spirit of love and concern for the well being of the rest of the body.

I have had some hard lessons in this area of brotherly love these past few years, when my church family wrongfully harmed my self and my family. I had to search my own heart to see if my attitude toward them was really one of love and concern, or was I becoming bitter and arrogant in my self righteousness? I wanted so badly to blast them for what they had done and for the extreme harm they caused us in their own failed attempt to demonstrate love toward us! Yet the Lord showed me how truly lacking in love I really was. I was humiliated and am ashamed at how little love I really have toward others. My love is almost always motivated by my own self interest, how often I have passed up opportunities to demonstrate God's love to a fellow brother in Christ, or to a stranger in need. I am ashamed of my selfishness, it is pitiful how far from Christ I really fall, when it come to showing His love.

We are all a work in progress, and I am trying to be more aware of opportunities and am more self-conscious of how I behave- do I demonstrate true Christ like love or am I really motivated by my own interests? It is really hard, but I am making some small progress, thanks to the hard lessons of the Lord's discipline in my life.

I hope that here at FP others have en-devoured to grow in this area as well, I often have to re-read my posts and ask myself how the reader might react to the words I have chosen to express myself, and many more times than I would like to admit, I have edited or even decided to forgo a post because I felt my words would only cause harm and not result in anything productive or edifying.

Sometimes I even wonder if the whole idea of "debate" itself is an act of pride and selfishness? I admit that I want others to acknowledge what I am trying to convey as at least having a possibility of being on the right track. Is that prideful? I wonder if I really desire to help others gain understanding of the word of God or do I just want praise from others? I wonder if what I type here on the page has any influence toward edification and the building up of the body at all? Or am I just seeking my own self interests? These are questions I continue to ask myself, and hopefully my motivation is in the right place. As I proceed I hope to continue with those things in mind- how is what I say here helping others? Could I be the cause of leading someone down a path to spiritual harm? Do my words convey my thoughts without putting others down? What are others saying that I can learn from and grow by?

In short I aim to proceed with caution and care and hopefully a desire to demonstrate love in a way that brings about growth toward Christ in those I am communicating with.

RT

[burien1]

RT, that is one of the most humble posts, I have ever read from a Christian. Thank you.

[daffodyllady]

RT, won't it be wonderful to meet in heaven? I am so looking forward to meeting you up there... along with all the others on this board...

And suddenly, the thought hit me... No one will say, "See! I was right!" about anything.

All the arguments we have had on this earth, and in this forum, will be made worthless in comparison to seeing the face of God, and sharing in the likeness of Christ's resurrection. Egos will be swept away along with all the other wood, hay, and stubble we have concerned ourselves with on this earth.

The wonder is that Christ loves and accepts us, even with our selfish, mistaken egos.

..........................

As to the subject Mark s introduced:
I have seen some who thought that as long as a thing was true, that it was right to speak of it, to whomsoever they wished.

I have seen others who thought that if someone had a fault, it was their responsibility to confront that person, because if they loved that person, they would help him/her to overcome his/her every fault. So they went around speaking the truth to everyone they saw as failing in any way, thinking they were acting out of love, when actually it was out of a critical and self-righteous spirit.

And then I have also experienced being approached by a humble servant of God, who truly did not want to rebuke me for my sin of pride. But God had laid it severely on her spirit, and she could not avoid the responsibility and continue to have peace with God. She took me aside privately and told me what God had spoken to her spirit. And it was the voice of God to me. I am thankful she was obedient.

[Abiding in His Word]

I have been thinking about your question, Mark, so if I may take a stab at my understanding.... I just today had a kind of epiphany while reading some quotes from Ravi Zacharias. A member posted that he was coming to her church and I found this quote from him:

“Yes, if truth is not undergirded by love, it makes the possessor of that truth obnoxious and the truth repulsive.”

So in the context of the verses you posted, I had been trying to focus on the definition and understanding of agape love. After reading Zacharias' quote, I see it differently and maybe it will be helpful in answering your question. I now think the emphasis might equally be on the "possessor" of the truth spoken. The manner in which the truth is spoken (by the "possessor") will most times determine the impact of the words. Agape love cannot be faked or imitated; it emanates from within.

I often wondered how Jesus could simply say "follow me" to each of the disciples and they dropped everything to follow Him. Now I think it was because He emanated agape love. That's the reason He (the possessor of truth) was not found to be obnoxious or repulsive, but rather overwhelmingly irresistible to those He came in contact with. People followed Him everywhere to hear Him speak.

In the context of Ephesians 4, the goal is the maturing and edifying of the body of Christ. Paul is emphasizing how we walk (not as the gentiles), speak (the truth in love), and the words (no unwholesome) used in ministering to one another. He reminds them that "But you did not learn Christ in this way..." What way did they not learn Christ? The way of the gentiles: those who are callous, sensual, and greedy.

My conclusion is that the truth will be more readily received when the "possessor" is full of light and love in the presentation of truth. It applies to all of us actually, because at one time or another in our walk, we are apostles, teachers, evangelists and even shepherds.

Hope that helps.

[mark s]

I've finally had time now to sit down and read all of your replies!



I've been giving this a lot of thought myself. I think its very well stated that this has a lot to do with agendas. Even when I have a good will towards others, I know how easy it can be to mingle in my own desire for recognition, sense of accomplishment, or other forms of pride. "Knowing" that "I'm right", and "should be listened to". Many forms it can take.

Our love can be a mixed bag. We can be doing the work God gives us, and still throw into it our own pride or peeve.

God gives us the works He wants us to do. Do we want to do more? That will dilute the effectiveness of our true work.

If my work is to show another the way back to obedience, do I insist on making sure they know that I'm being good? What if the best way is to reveal my own fault, and then make myself accountable to them as an example of how we as believers can be honest with each other, so that they will feel safe to be honest with me?

I've found that I can accuse someone else of their wrongdoing, or I can simply share my own wrongdoing, and in so doing, provide someone else with an example, and opportunity to safely reveal them self. No matter if I "lose respect", that was an illusion anyway if people don't know the truth about me. How much truth am I willing to live? How much do I love others? And I'm not talking about simply making a display of myself. The point is, does it help someone else?

When someone demonstrates their dedication to winning the debate, what are they really saying about them self? Can I simply express the truth, then allow others to tear me down without need for defense? Can I allow others their own agendas, without insisting on importing mine? Can I simply share Scripture, and allow the Holy Spirit to either quicken their understanding or not?

I think that how we answer the question, "am I willing, even happy to sacrifice my own agenda for the better of someone else?" is a good thermometer of the condition of our love. Will I "throw myself under the bus" for you?

Can I be absolutely mundane, of no special interest? Can I be quiet, when being baited? Can I simply allow it when someone else is trying to use me to advance their own agenda, if resisting them serves no loving purpose? Can I be so empty of personal ambition that I can truly know when I really am serving a loving purpose?

What is it that I most want? If I can know that, I think I'll know the answer to these other questions. But only if I'm honest with myself.

I think speaking the truth in love begins by being honest with myself. While "the heart is deceiptful", yes, that's the unregenerate heart. We have the mind of Christ. And God wants His children to walk in truth.

Tevye wrote, "without subterfuge, conditions or expectations". Am I willing to simply offer the gift of myself? To give myself to you without taint of ambition? For you to ignore, distort, use me as a stepstone for your own ambition, if that is what you will do? Or to just receive my gift as from the Lord. I want to give without any requirement of receiving anything back, whether it be reward, recognition, whatever.

I think that if we truly love, then speaking the truth in love will come quite naturally to us. It will be the expression of our love.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Gee, Mark....in your opening post the context of speaking the truth in love is within ministry designed for both edification and maturity of the body...did you mean within the context of debate?

When someone demonstrates their dedication to winning the debate, what are they really saying about them self? Can I simply express the truth, then allow others to tear me down without need for defense? Can I allow others their own agendas, without insisting on importing mine? Can I simply share Scripture, and allow the Holy Spirit to either quicken their understanding or not?

Does a pastor/teacher see a sermon as an opportunity to defend a personal agenda? Does an apostle who shares the gospel do so with a personal agenda in mind? The agenda hopefully is to share the truth. That agenda is scriptural. The truth may be presented with a different perspective than others may have, and then it's up to the hearers to examine scripture to "see if it's so." So in the context of the ministries you posted in Ephesians 4, there should be no other "agenda" than to share the truth in a manner that reflects the agape love of Jesus.

Have I misunderstood the OP? Under what circumstances does one have the opportunity or responsibility to "throw oneself under the bus" to prove their love?



I'm confused.....

[mark s]

Hi Abiding,

I'm not talking about "proving love". Love proves itself.

While only some are apostles, or prophets, or so forth, we all nonetheless minister to each other. "Speaking the truth is love" is not restricted to the pulpit. Its what all of us are to do all the time, as I see it.

Take within a debate. We see many of those here, and we see a variety of styles. One can debate with the pure motives of learning truth, and sharing truth, and one can debate with the fleshly motives of proving to everyone that they have the answer, and are the more clever writer. One is what I can give to you, the other is what I can take for myself.

Each of us has to come to an honest understanding about ourselves.

What am I truly trying to accomplish here? I know for myself, like RT posted, there is often a mixture, as both spirit and flesh struggle for supremacy.

What's my goal? Try to elevate myself, and put others down? Then I could go and point out the pride and self-vaunting in others. Try to promote humility within the body for the mutual good? Then I could be humble myself, and simply speak of my own failings.

You wrote that we share the truth in a manner that reflects the love of Jesus. While I agree with that, I think there is more. If we are living the love of Jesus, His love is our love, and we love one another. And this love we have for each other, described so eloquently in Scripture, patient, kind, slow to anger, keeping no record of wrongs, seeking not its own, and so much more, this defines our words and tone, and our behaviors. It defines our agenda, because if we love, we serve. And that serving will reflect not only in what we do, but how we do it, and how little we gather to ourselves as we do it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Tevye]

One can debate with the pure motives of learning truth, and sharing truth, and one can debate with the fleshly motives of proving to everyone that they have the answer, and are the more clever writer. One is what I can give to you, the other is what I can take for myself.

I think I'm understanding what you are saying
It's like
If I write with the tongues of men or of angels but have not love
then I am but a resounding gong, or clanging cymbal....
The messsage one is sharing may get through
but the love which changes us in our hearts is not there for the other
to take hold of, when sharing the truth, and therefore it becomes fruitless.

If we are living the love of Jesus, His love is our love, and we love one another. And this love we have for each other, described so eloquently in Scripture, patient, kind, slow to anger, keeping no record of wrongs, seeking not its own, and so much more, this defines our words and tone, and our behaviors. It defines our agenda, because if we love, we serve. And that serving will reflect not only in what we do, but how we do it, and how little we gather to ourselves as we do it.

What can I say, but amen.

I think that love can be such a strange concept to our minds
that Christ would suffer willingly, and even plan for such suffering
that He would come to live with us knowing He was going to die.
Maybe that is why so many find it difficult to accept His free gift of life.
Because they can't comprehend such a love that asks for nothing in return.
(other than to surrender our hard heart to be softend by His love)

Nichole Nordeman - "In Your Love" - (((videolink)))

"I am humbled in Your presence, more desperate than before
I've brushed against Your mercy, yet still I'm wanting more
I have felt the hand of comfort, in the softness of Your touch
I wait...

I am holding on to promises, I'm counting on the truth
and on these knees I'm faltering
I'm calling out to You

In Your love, I find my resting place
In Your love, I find my shelter
When I lay down all that I've been holding to
The beauty I've found in You, is sweeter than all I've known
In Your love

I surrender all my failings, please break these chains of doubt
I bring these simple offerings of what I can't work out
Won't You let these healing waters anoinnt my troubled soul
I wait...

(Holding on to promises...)
I am holding on to promises, I'm counting on the truth
On these knees I'm faltering, I'm calling out to You

In Your love, I find my resting place
In Your love, I find my shelter

When I lay down all that I've been holding to
The beauty I found in You, is sweeter than all I've known
In Your love..."

[Abiding in His Word]

One can debate with the pure motives of learning truth, and sharing truth, and one can debate with the fleshly motives of proving to everyone that they have the answer, and are the more clever writer. One is what I can give to you, the other is what I can take for myself.

Can we really know who's doing what or why? After all, not every believer is at the same level of maturity in any one of the fruit of the Spirit. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration?

Does this scripture apply?

Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice....Philippians 1:15-18

[Tevye]

I think that if we truly love, then speaking the truth in love will come quite naturally to us. It will be the expression of our love.

I hope my whole life will be found in that kind of love...
someday...Lord willing...this will be what I'm known for,
in everything I say and do. I desire to have His kind of love,
because in every situation of life perfect love cast out fear,
and the Lord knows we need that in every part of our life.

[mark s]

One can debate with the pure motives of learning truth, and sharing truth, and one can debate with the fleshly motives of proving to everyone that they have the answer, and are the more clever writer. One is what I can give to you, the other is what I can take for myself.

Can we really know who's doing what or why? After all, not every believer is at the same level of maturity in any one of the fruit of the Spirit. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration?

Hi Abiding,

Can we know what others are doing, and why? Imperfectly, I would think.

I'm not really sure what you are asking me here.

Yes, different people are at different stages of development. Paul spoke of "Christ being formed in you", and of being transformed by seeing His glory in ourselves, become our glory. Yes, we grow and mature. And I think this will be reflected by what degree our lives are an expression of His love through our lives, and as we are able to "speak the truth in love".

Does this scripture apply?

Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice....Philippians 1:15-18

I think this would be an example of some who speak the truth, but not in love. In their case, they were speaking the Gospel, and though their motives were not right, Paul rejoiced that the Gospel was nonetheless preached.

How would you apply this to the current discussion?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

I think that if we truly love, then speaking the truth in love will come quite naturally to us. It will be the expression of our love.

I hope my whole life will be found in that kind of love...
someday...Lord willing...this will be what I'm known for,
in everything I say and do. I desire to have His kind of love,
because in every situation of life perfect love cast out fear,
and the Lord knows we need that in every part of our life.

It's like what Abiding said about Jesus being able to simply say, Follow Me, and they would just walk away from everything. To have that kind of overwhelming love for others!

It's been often reported that the Apostle John would tell the church, "Love each other. If you can do this, it is enough."

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi Mark,

How would you apply this to the current discussion?

Although I think I'm on a different "thought-wave" than you may have intended in this thread, what I meant by the verse I posted is.... that even though some believers (due to their maturity level) may not speak the truth in love, we should still be able to recognize the truth (or otherwise) from their words.

While speaking the truth in love is surely the ultimate way to do so, we should nevertheless rejoice in the fact that the truth is being spoken and understand that there is still some fruit that needs to grow.

[Tevye]

It's been often reported that the Apostle John would tell the church, "Love each other. If you can do this, it is enough."

A wonderful memory of the Apostle.
Maybe this is why he was known as the disciple whom Jesus loved...

While speaking the truth in love is surely the ultimate way to do so, we should nevertheless rejoice in the fact that the truth is being spoken and understand that there is still some fruit that needs to grow.

Reminds me of a song.

"I have made mistakes, and I have been afraid
I have felt alone, then you called my name

Things were crashing loudly, happening all around me
But you're still small voice, was all that I could hear

I am here, I'm holding you
You'll make it through this
I am here, I am here
-
Well I have been such a fool, when I have known the truth
I've wasted so much time, doing what I want to do

I've been living solely, for myself and myself only
but your still small voice, is whispering

Whenever you run away, whenever you lose you're faith
It's just another stroke, of the pen on the page

A lonely ray of hope, is all that you need
to see, a beautiful history

I toss and turn and scream, I try to do everything
with two feet on the ground, I just keep falling down again

I feel so far from home

Completely on my own, and then I hear you say
I am here, I am here"

Plumb - "Beautiful History" - (((videolink)))

[mark s]

Hi Abiding,

OK, I think I understand what you are saying. Yes, I think we do well to not let someone's poor presentation negate whether their words have merit.

I'm personally thinking of this particular thread as a self-examination of what it means to me for me to "speak the truth in love", what that is, how can I be sure I'm doing it, and how I can increase in that.

Building on this, I think that when we're dealing with someone who is decidedly NOT speaking the truth in love, this can be a real test of whether we can or cannot. I think that to be able to respond to someone in selfless love when they are specifically self-serving, abrasive, and even abusive, requires a true love that comes from the mind of Christ.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I think that to be able to respond to someone in selfless love when they are specifically self-serving, abrasive, and even abusive, requires a true love that comes from the mind of Christ.

[mark s]

It's like
If I write with the tongues of men or of angels but have not love
then I am but a resounding gong, or clanging cymbal....
The messsage one is sharing may get through
but the love which changes us in our hearts is not there for the other
to take hold of, when sharing the truth, and therefore it becomes fruitless.

I like the way you put this.

[Tevye]

Thank you Mark.
I was wondering about this passage
was Paul speaking the truth in love here?

"1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?" - Galatians chapter 3

Is speaking the truth in love not so much about the content
as it is about being personally known by those who are being written to?
For example, does the apostle 'get away with' calling the Galatians foolish
because he has met them in person, and has a position as a 'teacher' in the church?
Verses, a discussion board on the internet where one has never met another face to face
and therefore must show love in sharing the truth, as if one would be meeting someone in person
for the first time every day? Kind of like being in a relationship with someone who has a damaged
temporal lobe, and every day is as the day when their brain injury occured. "Hi I'm Tom..."
Or maybe it's like the song from "The King and I" "Getting to know you."
playing over and over in one's head... (but in a good way...)

Getting to Know You from The King and I - ((videolink))

[Tevye]

I continued reading into Galatians chapter 4
and it is interesting what Paul says here:

"I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14 Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15 What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!"

I sense a closeness in the apostle's heart to knowing these people in the faith
yet, there still is a distance between them and him in the Spirit. Does knowing
and sharing the difficult bits of truth in another's life set the burden
of correcting another's errors upon the shoulders of one who in authority?
(as the apostle established in chapter 2) Does the same apply for those
who are on the same level as laypersons in the faith?
Are we called to carrying one another's burdens
and reveal the foolish along with the good behavior?
But only if we know them as one could when
having been face to face?

[Tevye]

I suppose I'm wondering would the Apostle Paul
say what he wrote if he was with them, face to face?
Would he look out over the congregation as a teacher/pastor
and say "you foolish people" or would he be more compassionate in person?

The same person who told the Ephesians we should speak the truth in love
writes to the Galatians in one tone, and yet desires to be with them in person
and then change his method of communication.

"...have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
They eagerly seek you, not commendably, but they wish
to shut you out so that you will seek them. But it is good always
to be eagerly sought in a commendable manner, and not only when
I am present with you. My children, with whom I am again in labor
until Christ is formed in you— but I could wish to be present with you now
and to change my tone, for I am perplexed about you."

It's interesting to note that Paul confronted Peter face to face.

Peter (Cephas) Opposed by Paul
"But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned."

I guess the question is, are there times when speaking the truth in love is
not necessarily what we imagine it to be? Are there times when love is
difficult, and confronting another's issues is sharing truth inspite of
what the feelings may be? Is saying one is foolish, being rude and insensitive?
Are there certain words and phrases that are acceptable in communicating
the truth in love? Are we able to learn what is acceptable and what is not
and not be in fear of being blotted out of fellowship or held guilty
of crossing the line with what we have said? Is it wise to outline
in a statement of faith, or in a set of guidlines specifically
how and what can or can't be said, so there is no doubt
what the protocols of online discussion are?
Or would this complicate mattters of communication
or restrict what some may see as freedoms, so much so
that gathering together (or post activity) may be
overly affected and the board become a ghost town?

Does occasionally crossing the line in communication
draw in others who may increase posting activity?
Not trying to stir up a hornet's nest, just wondering.
Are some things needed to be taken with a grain of salt
by those whom the message is being communicated to?
Salt being the medicine that heals the wounds.
Is there grace for those who have yet to grow more
in the love of Christ, and communicate boldly?
Is it easier to be offended by what may appear
to be an offense that may be presented vaguely
and not specifically directed to a certain person
when one is responding to another's post?

When it was said that "iron sharpens iron"
does that mean that sometimes the sparks fly
and the sharpening is a necessary action
for the benefit of the sword?
Is it the same for people who need to be sharpened?

It is interesting to note that in the message to the Ephesians
he establishes an order of authority...
" He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"
and then establishes what is not speaking the truth in love...
"that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
...leading to communicating to those being instructed in the faith in all the forms of love...
"...speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies,
according to the effective working by which every part does its share,
causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."

Love causes growth of the body according to effective communication through edification.
Sometimes love is difficult and tough, and sometimes it is joyful, blissful and happy.
I would imagine that this is why the Lord has established
some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists,
and some to be pastors and teachers (and board moderators)
to keep an eye or ear upon the communication in fellowship
that should freely flow, yet be seasoned with love
grace and mercy in Messiah Yeshua.

[Mrs. B]

Speaking the Truth in Love......


Jesus is Truth and He Is Love......and yet he was despised, and hated, and killed

We Speak Truth because He Is Truth....

But Jesus said.....If they hate you, they hate me....If they love you, they love me.
We are to be Love and speak Truth.......Truth hurts.....we all think we are right......or most of us do.
So when truth is offince to us......even if you speak in love.....it is truth that is an offince
that is why.....we should examine ourselves in Light of the Word......to see if the word spoken that offended us is true or that I in myself have what I call wrong believing........

What is in me....is how I see
and what is in you....is how you see...

Through my life....I was shocked at the thing I had hid in my heart.......anger, unforgiveness, selfishness...
so if a sittuation was spoken that may be related to these thing.....I could be offinded.....but the Truth of the Offince is to cause me to examin My Self....and see if what I heard was true....and why didi it offend me...
The Truth will set you free.......Jesus is Truth......and the spoken word is for us to examin ourself and correct what ever needs correcting.......

Ususally if something offend you......you need to find out Why.....ask Jesus and He will show you.One time I said to a lady in our church.....I Hate Money.
Then I thought, I'm a grown lady why did I Say that.......So I Begin to ask the Lord why I had this attitude toward money...
and I was shocked to what He showed me...
He took me back to when I was a Little Girl......laying in my bed one night, and My mother and dady were fighting over money.....and I remembered saying in that bed that night....I hate money, I hate money
so as an adult......Money has never been impoirtatn to me.....I hated Money....As a litle girl I let this into my spirit and as a grown adult I still had that attitute, so i never placed money as important......I had a wrong attitude....so a lot of us have wrong attitutes about a lot of things .....from our pass life......and we let them carry over into our adult life..
We can have wrong attitudes.a...and we need to ask the Lord Why....
We need to know who we are in christ.....and not be threaed by what some one says....we need to know what we belie e and speak truth in love....and if it offends the we need to examin ourselves and see why>>>
Mrs. B

[Abiding in His Word]

Beautiful, beautiful post, Mrs. B! Perfect! I call it healing of areas we don't know need healing....memories, emotions, experiences, perceptions, etc. They are "damaged" areas of one's life that are hindrances or barriers to walking in agape love with one another.

When the Spirit of Truth comes....you will be guided into all truth.

[mark s]

When the Spirit of Truth comes....you will be guided into all truth.

I think this sums it up well. Our new life in the Spirit leads us to walk in our new reality.

Those things that were ruled by past experiences become ruled by Christ instead. If understanding helps that process, that is good. Sometimes we just need to lay it down, and trust God.

I think that the desire to "recoup" things lost to an horrible past, childhood and adult victimizations, can be an hindrance to walking in the spirit, as our flesh wants what it feels it should have.

Going back to the idea of "agendas", I think the flesh wants to nurture itself, to protect, to commiserate, to justify, while the spirit wants to give, to surrender, to sacrifice.

The person who's grown up being wrongly told they are stupid wants, in the natural, to show they are smart, to prove those voices wrong. To the person who is Spirit-controlled, this doesn't matter. All that matters is what is good for others.

Now, whether this person needs to somehow counter the past, through understanding, self-talk, however it can happen, or whether they can simply affirm their service to our Lord, and live love regardless of what their childhood was like, the important thing is to reach that place of sacrifice.

As one who endured much and varied abuse in my childhood and teen years, I've seen both of these occur. Sometimes, its been after I've realized some particular dynamic inside myself that I've been able to consciously choose to function differently. Other times, I've simply chosen to cease the behaviors/attitudes, in obedience to Jesus. And sometimes, when He has called me to obedience, He's given me that additional understanding after I've simply obeyed, but not before.

But when I get right down to it, the simple truth is that the flesh is hopelessly damaged in all of us, no matter what we've gone through, and ultimately, its not about repairing our flesh, it's about counting it dead. When we "reach an understanding" of why the flesh does what it does, what is really happening is that we are becoming "undeceived" about what the source of our behavior is.

Wrong behavior and attitudes come from the fallen flesh, and right behavior and attitudes come from the new spirit. We reckon the flesh dead, and we walk in the Spirit.

When I've decided to obey Christ out of some "new understanding" of my old behavior, or when I've decided to obey simply in response to His call to obedience, the important factor is my decision.

There can be a sense of being "trapped" in wrong behaviors and attitudes, driven by past abuses. I have friends who live that way, who blame their present failures on the destructiveness of their pasts. But the reality is this. With or without understanding, any of us can live a live of love, coming from obedience to the faith.

And I truly believe that the things we've suffered are being used by God to uniquely equip us for our particular mission in life.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[jgilberAZ]

I think we all too often zero in on the phrase "... speaking the truth in love ..." without taking into consideration its context.

For instance, the verse doesn't start with "Speaking ...," it starts with "Rather ..."

So, we must look at what speaking the truth in love is contrasted to ...

... so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (Ephesians 4:14 ESV)

Speaking the truth in love means correcting false doctrines/teachings so as to no allow false teachers to lead believers astray.

And ..

... we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (Ephesians 4:15-16 ESV)

Speaking the truth in love has the purpose of strengthening the body of Christ, to be unified in sound doctrine.

So, since we know what speaking the truth in love is ... correcting false teaching in the body of Christ so as to promote unity in sound doctrine ... we can now say what it isn't ...

Speaking the truth in love does not mean to act as the Holy Spirit and attempt to convict others (believers or unbelievers) of their sin.

We speak the truth in love when correcting false teaching, not when we're being a watchdog over other people's behavior.

I think this tiny section of this entire passage is taken out of context quite often, usually by those who want to tell others they're not living up to some standard they've devised in their own legalistic minds.

[daffodyllady]

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Actually there is more to the context than just correcting false doctrine:

Ephesians 4:1-32
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives,And He gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.
26 Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
27 and do not give the devil an opportunity.
28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.
29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

The reason we need to act in love toward one another is to preserve the unity of the Spirit that bonds us as believers together in the body of Christ. God gives some with particular talents to equip the body for service which in turn builds up the body, that "building" of the body is in reality the process of our sanctification (vs.13). The result of this sanctification is found in verse 14, we will no longer behave as spiritual "children" who are influenced by every wind of doctrine. This is the result of speaking the truth in love- sanctification, spiritual growth toward maturity that leads one into understanding the true doctrines of God's word.

Speaking truth in love can concern false doctrine, it also concerns dealing with sin according to verses 21-27, the context is laying aside the old self and putting on the new self. Laying aside "falsehood" and speaking the truth with our neighbor, not in anger but with words that edify (vs 26-29). Verses 31 and 32 elaborate on how not to behave and how to behave when dealing with one another do not act in bitterness, anger or malice or with shouting or slander, but be kind, compassionate and forgiving.

I think this passage especially speaks to those who are given to equip the saints, those who are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Those who have a place of authority in the body of Christ, who are charged with speaking the truth to those who are less mature in their faith so that they can be built up and edified, and grow in sanctification.

Unfortunately from my experience and others that I know, it is often the case that those who are in those positions within our local churches, often are children in their understanding and in need of being equipped themselves. They are sometimes in no position to be speaking the truth, because they don't really understand it , or they cannot deliver it in a manner as is described above because they are too immature spiritually themselves. Being able to speak the truth in love is a sign of spiritual maturity, those whose job it is to disseminate the truth should be further along on the path to sanctification so that they no longer behave like spiritual "children". I believe that the state of our churches today especially those that have fallen prey to the "seeker sensitive" and church growth models, perpetuate spiritual immaturity among the ranks of believers, so that those who are put into places of authority not by God but by men, are unable to behave with the maturity it takes to truly speak the truth in love. So instead they react in all the ways this passage says not to act in.

This is not to say that those who are not put in these leadership positions don't have a responsibility to act in love as well. Every believer must strive to act in love in their dealings toward others. Ultimately each one is responsible for their own spiritual health, and if we truly desire to follow Christ, He will see to our sanctification. Love is part of that process, as we mature in Christ we grow in His love and in our ability to speak the truth in love to others. If we find that we are having trouble speaking the truth in love, then it is probably better that we don't speak at all and leave the speaking of it to those who can do so with the love of Christ.

RT

[Abiding in His Word]

Actually there is more to the context than just correcting false doctrine:

Yes, Paul does focus on other concerns in this chapter and that is the believer's behavior toward one another. He specifically contrasts the behaviors/attitudes of the gentiles with those of believers.

The reason we need to act in love toward one another is to preserve the unity of the Spirit that bonds us as believers together in the body of Christ. God gives some with particular talents to equip the body for service which in turn builds up the body, that "building" of the body is in reality the process of our sanctification (vs.13). The result of this sanctification is found in verse 14, we will no longer behave as spiritual "children" who are influenced by every wind of doctrine. This is the result of speaking the truth in love- sanctification, spiritual growth toward maturity that leads one into understanding the true doctrines of God's word.

Yes, we love one another because He first loved us. We ought not to remain "students" and be content with the milk of the Word, but eventually should be mature enough to be teachers having been able to digest the meat of the Word.

Speaking truth in love can concern false doctrine, it also concerns dealing with sin according to verses 21-27, the context is laying aside the old self and putting on the new self. Laying aside "falsehood" and speaking the truth with our neighbor, not in anger but with words that edify (vs 26-29). Verses 31 and 32 elaborate on how not to behave and how to behave when dealing with one another do not act in bitterness, anger or malice or with shouting or slander, but be kind, compassionate and forgiving.

Agreed. The passage speaks of believers' behaviors toward one another. It does not mention confronting one another about their sin.

I think this passage especially speaks to those who are given to equip the saints, those who are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Those who have a place of authority in the body of Christ, who are charged with speaking the truth to those who are less mature in their faith so that they can be built up and edified, and grow in sanctification.

I must disagree that the passage "especially" speaks to those given to equip the saints. Of the 32 verses in this chapter, only 1 mentions particular gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd/teacher. I don't see a mention of authority or that only these particular gifts equate with speaking the truth in love. Verse 25 enjoins each believer to speak the truth in love. Those to whom Paul is speaking is reflected in nearly every verse throughout the chapter and is that of each believer. I find the entire passage speaking to each believer individually and collectively.

4:2 one another
4:3 unity (oneness) bond (unity)
4:7 each one
4:8 gave gifts
4:11 some gifts
4:12 gifts for serving
4:13 till we (each, every, all)
4:14 we (each, every, all)
4:15 we (each, every, all)
4:16 entire body; each joint; each part
4:25 each one; one another
4:32 each other; one another

Throughout the passage (in fact throughout all of Paul's letters) his concern is false doctrine. He emphasizes truth and behavior that each believer should reflect. Again, I don't see a focus on authority, sin, nor leadership.

Unfortunately from my experience and others that I know, it is often the case that those who are in those positions within our local churches, often are children in their understanding and in need of being equipped themselves. They are sometimes in no position to be speaking the truth, because they don't really understand it , or they cannot deliver it in a manner as is described above because they are too immature spiritually themselves. Being able to speak the truth in love is a sign of spiritual maturity, those whose job it is to disseminate the truth should be further along on the path to sanctification so that they no longer behave like spiritual "children". I believe that the state of our churches today especially those that have fallen prey to the "seeker sensitive" and church growth models, perpetuate spiritual immaturity among the ranks of believers, so that those who are put into places of authority not by God but by men, are unable to behave with the maturity it takes to truly speak the truth in love. So instead they react in all the ways this passage says not to act in.

This happens, imo, when scripture is used to support an agenda. False teachers will go to great lengths to twist scripture to achieve their goal and I see this method of teaching infiltrating churches at a great speed. And that agenda is power, control, and authority.

This is not to say that those who are not put in these leadership positions don't have a responsibility to act in love as well. Every believer must strive to act in love in their dealings toward others. Ultimately each one is responsible for their own spiritual health, and if we truly desire to follow Christ, He will see to our sanctification. Love is part of that process, as we mature in Christ we grow in His love and in our ability to speak the truth in love to others. If we find that we are having trouble speaking the truth in love, then it is probably better that we don't speak at all and leave the speaking of it to those who can do so with the love of Christ.

I agree with this entirely....providing "speaking the truth in love" is not used in this passage to support pointing out one anothers' sin.

[Mark F]

..............................................
I agree with this entirely....providing "speaking the truth in love" is not used in this passage to support pointing out one anothers' sin.

Reading through this I believe you are correct, and jgilberAZ points this out as well.