Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Discussion not limited to prophecy.

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:53 pm

mrgravyard49 wrote:We ALL may be wrong

We ARE All wrong. To some degree, we all are.
So we All Watch and wait as best we can, that's all we can do.

But while doing so...Love one another, and Reach More Souls for Christ.

That's the Goal, or it should be, for All of us.

:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jericho on Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:43 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mrgravyard49 wrote:We ALL may be wrong

We ARE All wrong. To some degree, we all are.
So we All Watch and wait as best we can, that's all we can do.

But while doing so...Love one another, and Reach More Souls for Christ.

That's the Goal, or it should be, for All of us.

:hugs:


:a3:
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby mark s on Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:55 pm

Jericho wrote:I don't think anyone can definitively say there is no rapture, or know the timing of the rapture. If it were so clear in scriptures we would not be having endless debates about it. We may have our reasons why we believe in a certain rapture position, which is fine, but they are all theories until proven otherwise. There are mysteries in the scriptures, things which are veiled for reasons only known to God. And probably for good reason, if we knew definitively when He would return it would change everything. Personally, I don't feel the need to defend my rapture position as much as I used to. It just becomes pointless after awhile. I would rather focus on occupying my time until He returns, or I go home.


Hi Jericho,

I believe there are things alluded to in Scripture which are, in the final analysis, unknowable. Whether this is one of those, I'm not so sure.

One thing I think is that the battlefield of the rapture debate is not over Scriptural 'silences', that is, things not told us. I think it is over hermeneutics, the interpretation of what is told us.

I think the more literal the interpretation, the less the tolerance for allegorical interpretation short of evidence, the more likely to be pre-trib. At least, that has been my personal observation.

One reason I enjoy rapture debate so much, if it can be pursued in the right way, is for the opportunity it provides to examine the way we read Scripture, and how we understand it.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13790
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jericho on Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:00 pm

mark s wrote:I think the more literal the interpretation, the less the tolerance for allegorical interpretation short of evidence, the more likely to be pre-trib. At least, that has been my personal observation.


Good point mark s, you could be right about that.
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:07 pm

Jericho wrote:
mark s wrote:I think the more literal the interpretation, the less the tolerance for allegorical interpretation short of evidence, the more likely to be pre-trib. At least, that has been my personal observation.


Good point mark s, you could be right about that.


I think that is true also.

On that note though, I think prophecy is far more rich in nature than too ridged literal interpretation can explain.

The evidence is so vast in how spiritual interpretations explain prophecy more clearly. We have near endless examples by Christ Himself, and so many by Paul as well.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:27 pm

mark s wrote:One thing I think is that the battlefield of the rapture debate is not over Scriptural 'silences', that is, things not told us.

I have to disagree as I am often amazed at the number of "truths" I've heard/read that have no scriptural evidence to support it.

I think it is over hermeneutics, the interpretation of what is told us.

I think the more literal the interpretation, the less the tolerance for allegorical interpretation short of evidence, the more likely to be pre-trib. At least, that has been my personal observation.

Well, I've noticed the "cut and paste" or "selective literalism" method of hermeneutic that allows the end result to be whatever the desired agenda is. My personal observation is that there is much reading into scripture something that simply is not there. I can't give examples at the moment, but even if I could it would probably take this thread into a totally different direction. But suffice it to say right now, that I've even seen half of a verse taken literally and the other half totally ignored.

One reason I enjoy rapture debate so much, if it can be pursued in the right way, is for the opportunity it provides to examine the way we read Scripture, and how we understand it.

Mark, I'm with you as far as the value of debate (on any topic) goes as it does shed light on how we examine scripture and hopefully abandon incorrect methods and adopt those that more accurately convey the intended meaning in context.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29092
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:21 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:I have to disagree as I am often amazed at the number of "truths" I've heard/read that have no scriptural evidence to support it.



Hi Abiding,

This is true in my observations also. So I should revise my statement, it's the hermeneutic, or not even an hermeneutic at all!

:lol:

So then I think we agree on all points!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13790
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:26 am

Oh . . . and I can give an example of a single phrase frequently lifted entirely from it's context, with the intent of showing something not even remotely appearing in the passage.

Jesus' words in the Olivette Discourse: "As it was in the days of Noah". Jesus goes on to describe a sort of social mindset of 'life goes on', mindlessly and unaware until the day of judgment. Of course, we've probably all heard interpretations of this to describe everything from the depravity of humanity to angels procreating with humans. But none of that is the passage. Just that they'd be clueless!

:backtotopic:

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13790
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:21 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mrgravyard49 wrote:We ALL may be wrong

We ARE All wrong. To some degree, we all are.
So we All Watch and wait as best we can, that's all we can do.

But while doing so...Love one another, and Reach More Souls for Christ.

That's the Goal, or it should be, for All of us.

:hugs:


:a3: And we need to pray NOT to be DECEIVED.... :)
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:13 pm

mrgravyard49 wrote:
We ALL may be wrong


Jesus is not wrong and He says, He is coming AFTER the Tribulation... so, am I wrong to believe Jesus is Coning after the Tribulation?
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jericho on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:56 pm

What is your rapture position Woody?
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:56 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
mrgravyard49 wrote:
We ALL may be wrong


Jesus is not wrong and He says, He is coming AFTER the Tribulation... so, am I wrong to believe Jesus is Coning after the Tribulation?

Some people just see a twofold Second "Coming" Woody...kinda like a before and after "coming" of His "Coming" :mrgreen:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:34 pm

why can't opposing views be discussed without derision?

Personally, I don't think that does justice to the viewpoint. But was that the main intent?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13790
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:44 pm

mark s wrote:why can't opposing views be discussed without derision?

Personally, I don't think that does justice to the viewpoint. But was that the main intent?

Much love!
Mark


I hope I wasn't being that way, I was just trying to be a little silly. :mrgreen:

If I was, I'm very sorry.

I look at Christ's "Coming" in a similar way, kind of....by seeing a kind of spiritual "Coming" IN the saints In the Spirit during the 3.5 TRIB, and Christ's Literal 'Coming" Physically at the End of it. So I can see Christ's "Coming" as not a "ONE 24 hour Day Even" also.

sorry again mark if I did offend,
:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:33 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
mrgravyard49 wrote:
We ALL may be wrong


Jesus is not wrong and He says, He is coming AFTER the Tribulation... so, am I wrong to believe Jesus is Coning after the Tribulation?


Hi Woody,

No you are not wrong. The scriptures in Matt Chap 24 are very clear that Jesus said He's coming for His elect "immediately after" the distress/tribulation/suffering "of those days."

This is what I believe too.

:blessyou:

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:17 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:
mrgravyard49 wrote:
We ALL may be wrong


Jesus is not wrong and He says, He is coming AFTER the Tribulation... so, am I wrong to believe Jesus is Coning after the Tribulation?


Hi Woody,

No you are not wrong. The scriptures in Matt Chap 24 are very clear that Jesus said He's coming for His elect "immediately after" the distress/tribulation/suffering "of those days."

This is what I believe too.

:blessyou:

sonbeam


God bless you too Sonbeam.... when people ask me what endtime view I have, I say, same as Jesus.... :)
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:24 pm

Jericho wrote:What is your rapture position Woody?


At the time of Jesus Return, after tribulation .... when the Sign from Matt 24 of the Sun, Moon and Stars appear.....
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jericho on Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:46 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
Jericho wrote:What is your rapture position Woody?


At the time of Jesus Return, after tribulation .... when the Sign from Matt 24 of the Sun, Moon and Stars appear.....


Post-tribulation then? I also believe Jesus will return after the tribulation, albeit in stages. The issue I have with the rapture occurring after the tribulation is who will populate the millennium? Jesus said that in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven (Mat 22:30). There is also the issue of us not being appointed to wrath (1Th 5:9).
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:08 am

Jericho wrote:The issue I have with the rapture occurring after the tribulation is who will populate the millennium?

It would only take Two to be preserved alive.
Jericho wrote:There is also the issue of us not being appointed to wrath (1Th 5:9).

Show me a place in Revelation that says God Pours out his wrath On the Elect, His saints.

You won't find it Jericho.

God's wrath is fully in the Bowls/Vials Only.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:41 am

Jericho wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:
Jericho wrote:What is your rapture position Woody?


At the time of Jesus Return, after tribulation .... when the Sign from Matt 24 of the Sun, Moon and Stars appear.....


Post-tribulation then? I also believe Jesus will return after the tribulation, albeit in stages. The issue I have with the rapture occurring after the tribulation is who will populate the millennium? Jesus said that in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven (Mat 22:30). There is also the issue of us not being appointed to wrath (1Th 5:9).


Hi Jericho,
I see the Great Tribulation being 1290 days, 1260 days of the AC reign, after that the Bowl Judgments which is 30 days(God's Wrath)... so, after the 1260 days are over, we don't know the Day and hour, we are not appointed to wrath and Jesus returns after the 1260 days.... there can't be any of God's wrath in the 1260 days because Jesus return after the Great Tribulation so...

I keep thinking that Noah and family were still on earth prior to God's wrath, the ten plagues or Lot was still here during God's wrath, they were not appointed to God's Wrath either....but point being is whether we are here or not, we are not appointed to God's wrath....

Many blessings to you :)
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jericho on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:10 pm

shorttribber wrote:It would only take Two to be preserved alive.


ST, what two people and where do you see that in scripture?

shorttriber wrote:Show me a place in Revelation that says God Pours out his wrath On the Elect, His saints.


Does not the judgements in Revelation effect the whole world? The Fourth Seal, for instance, kills a fourth part of earth (Rev 6:8). The Saints in Rev 6 cry out to God to avenge them from those that live on earth. The angels who open the seals are given power to hurt the earth and sea (Rev 7:2), etc.

shorttriber wrote:God's wrath is fully in the Bowls/Vials Only.


I disagree, but even so the Bowls/Vials still effect the whole earth.

WOODHENOT3 wrote:there can't be any of God's wrath in the 1260 days because Jesus return after the Great Tribulation


Woody, if I understand you correctly you are saying God's wrath occurs after the Great Tribulation? This seems like an oxymoron since tribulation and wrath are synonymous. Why is it called the Great "Tribulation" if there is no wrath?

WOODHENOT3 wrote:I keep thinking that Noah and family were still on earth prior to God's wrath, the ten plagues or Lot was still there during God's wrath, they were not appointed to God's Wrath either


True, but the premise remains the same. They were except from God's wrath and merely spectators to events. That is the most important point.

WOODHENOT3 wrote:but scripture says we are gone when the 7th Trumpet is sounded... just before His wrath.... :)


This assumes that it is the same event, that a trumpet blast mentioned in one scripture corresponds with a trumpet blast mentioned in another scripture, but it's also possible they are distinct. Especially considering there are multiple instances of trumpet blasts in the bible. It doesn't necessarily mean they are prophetically related.
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:18 pm

Jericho wrote:shorttribber wrote:It would only take Two to be preserved alive.ST, what two people and where do you see that in scripture?

Where do you find it said in scripture that Many enter in instead of Two?
Jericho wrote:shorttriber wrote:Show me a place in Revelation that says God Pours out his wrath On the Elect, His saints.Does not the judgements in Revelation effect the whole world? The Fourth Seal, for instance, kills a fourth part of earth (Rev 6:8). The Saints in Rev 6 cry out to God to avenge them from those that live on earth. The angels who open the seals are given power to hurt the earth and sea (Rev 7:2), etc.

His "Judgments" Effect the whole world, yes, that does not ALSO mean that his "Judgments' ARE His "Wrath".
I believe his Judgments will Effect the saints in a Powerful and Positive way, not in a Negative way.
2 Thes
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Jericho wrote:shorttriber wrote:God's wrath is fully in the Bowls/Vials Only.I disagree, but even so the Bowls/Vials still effect the whole earth.

You can disagree, that's ok, but we are not here for the Vials/Bowls.

Can you show me a scripture that mentions Any Rewards Given to the Saints other than where it is said that we shall ALL Receive them Together, AFTER the Seventh Trump Sounds?

That's not a change of subject really, since we are looking at rapture timing in general.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:40 pm

[
WOODHENOT3 wrote:there can't be any of God's wrath in the 1260 days because Jesus return after the Great Tribulation


Woody, if I understand you correctly you are saying God's wrath occurs after the Great Tribulation? This seems like an oxymoron since tribulation and wrath are synonymous. Why is it called the Great "Tribulation" if there is no wrath?
[/quote]

Then we will call the 1260 days Tribulation and the 30 Days(bowls/vial) Great Tribulation.... :lol:
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:12 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:tribulation and wrath are synonymous.


The two words are not synonymous Jericho.........

Strong's #2347: thlipsis (pronounced thlip'-sis)
from 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:



thlipsis

1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaphorically oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:21 pm

Shorttribber,
We know that Jesus says in Matt 24, After the TRIBULATION then His Coming, would it make sense to call the Bowl Judgments the Great Tribulation?
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:27 pm

To be clear also, for Jericho, Woody, and any other readers, I believe the "Great tribulation" will last 1,290 days.

Jesus uses the words, "Those Days", to describe the "Great tribulation".

I believe that only the last 30 OR SO Days of that time, will be the Actual, Factual, "Wrath of God".

So, the Whole Great Tribulation is 3.5 years PLUS 30 more days long. God's Wrath is poured out Sometime During the 30 Days that follow those 3.5 years, but that Whole Time should still be Understood as "The Great Tribulation" ("Those Days" as Christ said).
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:29 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Shorttribber,
We know that Jesus says in Matt 24, After the TRIBULATION then His Coming, would it make sense to call the Bowl Judgments the Great Tribulation?

You make a good point Woody...I was just thinking the same thing! It may not be correct to include the 30 Day Wrath of God in that framework of "Great tribulation".
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:35 pm

In another thought, Jesus does not describe the Bowls in His words in Math 24.
In other words, The Tribulation of "Those Days" He describes as "Shortened" for the Elects sake...Which means that "Those Days, of Great Tribulation" would Continue Into and Actually AS God's Wrath for the Rebellious Unbelieving , God rejecting World.


And.....

In Rev12 we are Clearly and Plainly told that the great tribulation is "satan's" Wrath", NOT "God's Wrath".

God will not be Sharing HIS Wrath with Anyone! The whole world will Clearly Know the Difference between the two!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:43 pm

shorttribber wrote:In another thought, Jesus does not describe the Bowls in His words in Math 24.
In other words, The Tribulation of "Those Days" He describes as "Shortened" for the Elects sake...Which means that "Those Days, of Great Tribulation" would Continue Into and Actually AS God's Wrath for the Rebellious Unbelieving , God rejecting World.


And.....

In Rev12 we are Clearly and Plainly told that the great tribulation is "satan's" Wrath", NOT "God's Wrath".

God will not be Sharing HIS Wrath with Anyone! The whole world will Clearly Know the Difference between the two!


There you go brother!! :)
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:47 pm

Sadly, we have created a time line that does not reflect the reality of what is recorded in the scriptures.

For example the Bowl judgement/prophesied event of Revelation 16: 17-21 has already happened and as far as I can discern, this bowl judgement/prophesied event has been completely played out. It is the seventh recorded bowl judgement/prophesied event. Revelation 16:17-21 describes a series of events that occurred around 100 years ago.

Another example is the Bowl Judgement/prophesied event of Revelation 16:12-16, which is still unfolding at this present time and will end in our near future, probably within the next 20 -30 years at Armageddon when the power base of this present world will become radically different for a period of 1,000 years. This bowl judgement/prophesied event began many years ago when the Baal religion/worship seemed to disappear or dried up from the face of the earth and the fourth beast in league with the Little Horn began to blaspheme God. Also in the bowl judgement/prophesied event the Little Horn, in league with the third beast, began the trampling of God's sanctuary around the year 250 B.C. which will also end within the next 20-30 years at Armageddon when God will judge the wicked fallen heavenly host, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth, and they will be gathered together and imprisoned in the abyss/pit for many days before they are finally punished. (Isaiah 24:21-22)

It is also my understanding that the other five recorded bowl judgements/prophesied events will occur during the little while period after judged wicked fallen heavenly hosts and the judged kings of the earth are released from the abyss/pit after the 1,000 years has run its course and they will attempt to once again to spoil God's work that has been accomplished up to that time by Him.

Who will enter into the last age, the age we have labelled the Millennium Age?

The answer is very simple, all the people of the earth who will not be judged at Armageddon and imprisoned in the abyss/pit to await their time of punishment.

I can already hear the protests of people who are looking forward to the fulfilment of their escape theories, but will they then repent of their disbelief when what has been written above, comes to pass and they are still here on the face of the earth entering into the first 1,000 years of the Millennium Age and the season of God's great harvest of souls.

I am looking forward to that time, if I should still be alive, when Christ, the Son of Man, is given dominion over the peoples of the earth, and when Christ, in heaven, establishes a priesthood of all of those who have lost their heads, because of their belief in Him and God and have not received the mark of the beast(s), and He exercises His influence over all of the people of the earth.

Sadly, Satan will also be attempting to exercise his influence as well during this time with his faithful servants continuing his oppression of the peoples of the earth while he is imprisoned in the abyss/pit during this 1,000 year period.

All of the above is in plain sight to read and understand if people are able to go to the original texts and study it for themselves.

Shalom
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:04 pm

Jay Ross wrote:All of the above is in plain sight to read and understand if people are able to go to the original texts and study it for themselves


"if people are able to go to the original texts " :dunno:
There ARE ZERO "Original " Texts Jay.

So, we have what we have preserved....and that's all.

No "Original" texts are extant.

So, you piece together what You Think is "Original", and that is all you Can Do....it's all anyone can do.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby mrgravyard49 on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:40 pm

WOW I have to laugh, I once said something like,, the Bible has people screwed up, and got told ,,rightfully so, Its man who has it wrong.. People just look on this thread, we have people believing from pre-trib to post-trib to no rapture to we are all ready in the trib to we have gone half-way thru it. LOL LOL
We ALL need to just read his word, do our jobs bringing people to Christ and watch world events and the end-times play out.. So if YOU and ME think we got it right==================WRONG.
mrgravyard49
 
Posts: 2855
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:51 pm
Location: Columbus Ohio

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:10 pm

mrgravyard49 wrote:WOW I have to laugh, I once said something like,, the Bible has people screwed up, and got told ,,rightfully so, Its man who has it wrong.. People just look on this thread, we have people believing from pre-trib to post-trib to no rapture to we are all ready in the trib to we have gone half-way thru it. LOL LOL
We ALL need to just read his word, do our jobs bringing people to Christ and watch world events and the end-times play out.. So if YOU and ME think we got it right==================WRONG.

Finally, someone got it Almost Completely Right!

Mostly right, the "Bible" has no believer confused...we have what WE NEED of God's Wonderful Word Preserved for us actually.

It's believers that confuse believers.....we just can't help it...that's what we do.

Win Souls! Go out and Get'rdone!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:57 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:All of the above is in plain sight to read and understand if people are able to go to the original texts and study it for themselves


"if people are able to go to the original texts " :dunno:
There ARE ZERO "Original " Texts Jay.

So, we have what we have preserved....and that's all.

No "Original" texts are extant.

So, you piece together what You Think is "Original", and that is all you Can Do....it's all anyone can do.


ST you are right in that there are no complete "original" texts in existence today, but my understanding is that the fragments that have been found of the "original"/earliest available scrolls etc., from a number of different sources, tend to confirm the authenticity of the "copies" of the cobbled Greek or Hebrew texts that have been used in the translation process, and are present in the various language translations that exist around the world today.

It seems to me that you have focused your post on the fact that I did not put quotation marks around the word "original" in my post.

With that being understood, your post seems to presents a false argument against what I had written and provides no evidence as to whether or not I have erred, in what I had presented.

The real issue you have raised is the authenticity and correctness of the various translation that we use.

Taking your presented argument further onto the next step, the message, I understand from your above post, is that we cannot in any way believe the truth of what is recorded in the Bible translations that we use today simply because there are no "original" language texts available for us to check with to prove that they are reliable.

If you wish to pursue that topic and subject matter, then perhaps you should start a new thread in which to discuss the authenticity of the "original" language texts available to us and how closely our translations resemble the context and message of the "original" manuscripts.

Shalom

PS: - ST if I have erred, then you input as to why you believe that I have erred, I welcome by presenting your reasoning as to why I have erred.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:21 pm

Jay Ross wrote:ST you are right in that there are no complete "original" texts in existence today, but my understanding is that the fragments that have been found of the "original"/earliest available scrolls etc., from a number of different sources, tend to confirm the authenticity of the "copies" of the cobbled Greek or Hebrew texts that have been used in the translation process, and are present in the various language translations that exist around the world today.

There are No "Original" texts, period. Not One Word. There are ZERO "Original" manuscripts, Not a single One, and Not One single Fragment of one.

Jay Ross wrote:It seems to me that you have focused your post on the fact that I did not put quotation marks around the word "original" in my post.

If you put quotations or I put quotations, that does not matter.
Jay Ross wrote:With that being understood, your post seems to presents a false argument against what I had written and provides no evidence as to whether or not I have erred, in what I had presented.

I did not comment on your argument, only about your following words.....
"if people are able to go to the original texts"

And that simply can't be done, that's the point I was making.......that's the Only point I was making. I had no concern one way or the other about the remainder of your argument.

Jay Ross wrote:The real issue you have raised is the authenticity and correctness of the various translation that we use.

That's fine if you see it that way. I'm not concerned about discussing various translations.

Jay Ross wrote:Taking your presented argument further onto the next step, the message, I understand from your above post, is that we cannot in any way believe the truth of what is recorded in the Bible translations that we use today simply because there are no "original" language texts available for us to check with to prove that they are reliable.

Then you've misunderstood the meaning of what I said. We have what we need, God Has preserved his Word for us for our Salvation.

Jay Ross wrote:If you wish to pursue that topic and subject matter, then perhaps you should start a new thread in which to discuss the authenticity of the "original" language texts available to us and how closely our translations resemble the context and message of the "original" manuscripts.

That has been done before, and that conversation is pointless.

Jay Ross wrote:PS: - ST if I have erred, then you input as to why you believe that I have erred, I welcome by presenting your reasoning as to why I have erred.

We All err......I have pointed out what I needed to point out in what you said regarding the "Original" text...again, when you said the following...
"if people are able to go to the original texts"



"
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:43 pm

ST, one simple question, "Are there original source texts available on which the various translations are based for people to study?"

If your response is yes, then my original statement is correct within that context.

If your response is no, then how has God preserved His word within the context of what I was writing about?
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:12 am

Jay Ross wrote:ST, one simple question, "Are there original source texts available on which the various translations are based for people to study?"

If your response is yes, then my original statement is correct within that context.

If your response is no, then how has God preserved His word within the context of what I was writing about?


The definition of "Original Source Text" is.......

A source text is a text (sometimes oral) from which information or ideas are derived. In translation, a source text is the original text that is to be translated into another language.

Your question...." Are there original source texts available ....."

The answer is no. Not even the smallest fragment of an Original Source text is available or extant.

I am unable to answer how God has Preserved His Word within the context of what you were writing about.

I don't even understand what exactly you are asking me in that question.


The only point I was making is that there are no Original Texts extant. So your statement, "if people are able to go to the original texts", is not possible to do.

We can discuss how, in General, God has preserved His Glorious Word, but I'm not sure it would be in the context of what you said in particular.

But again, that conversation generally ends with people entrenched in certain beliefs about the accuracy of this or that Older or Later manuscripts.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:14 am

I can't speak for Jay, but from what I've read in his comments, it seems to me that when he mentions "original texts," he might be referring to the earliest texts available to us. I could be wrong, of course, but that's my understanding. I think the dead sea scrolls are certainly very early manuscripts, aren't they?
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29092
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby kirthril on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:36 am

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


Revelation 16 The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


For me the issue of the rapture is made clear in just these 3 (out of many) passages.

It is absolutely made clear that:

1. There is only 1 gathering of the elect to Christ
2. It will happen just like in Noah's time, on the same day as wrath befalls the world
3. The gathering takes place AFTER- A. The falling away happens, B. The AC is revealed.
4. Christians (not unbelievers) are the one being told to behold, Christ comes like a thief in the night to take his bride, one taken another left.
5. There is not a single verse mentioning 3 total comings of Christ and no mention of 2 separate sets of elect believers being gathered separately in all scripture. No to separate "thief" events. It is one coming and one coming only.
................

We will be here through the tribulation. Many Christians will abandon the faith during this time following those already adhering to false teaching. The AC will rampage and the world will be at war. But at some point towards the end (but for the sake of the elect I will shorten those days), Christ returns, gets his people out of here, and preceeds to pour out his wrath on the earth during the final (30-45?) days of the AC's reign.

Notice it is after his "behold I come as a thief" in revelation that the armies assemble at Armageddon. So there is definitely a period of time during the time of wrath that God allows the armies to transfer and assemble.

But the point is, the very same "behold I come as a thief" is a quote from Matthew regarding the Groom coming in the night like a thief for his bride. When does the groom come to gather his bride? As it was in the time of Noah... on the same day Noah was shut up in the ark, the rains fell. When does the groom gather his bride? After the falling away, after the revealing of the AC.

people say there are contradictions in some of the rapture views, but I see no contradictions here. These 3 passages alone confirm it.

:2cents:
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
kirthril
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:03 am
Location: Virginia

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:43 pm

kirthril wrote:
Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


Revelation 16 The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


For me the issue of the rapture is made clear in just these 3 (out of many) passages.

It is absolutely made clear that:

1. There is only 1 gathering of the elect to Christ
2. It will happen just like in Noah's time, on the same day as wrath befalls the world
3. The gathering takes place AFTER- A. The falling away happens, B. The AC is revealed.
4. Christians (not unbelievers) are the one being told to behold, Christ comes like a thief in the night to take his bride, one taken another left.
5. There is not a single verse mentioning 3 total comings of Christ and no mention of 2 separate sets of elect believers being gathered separately in all scripture. No to separate "thief" events. It is one coming and one coming only.
................

I see the same thing in the scriptures Kirthril.

One gathering. Bowls of wrath poured out on those left behind right after. Universe destroyed during this time.

I see Armageddon as a spiritual battle though .... between Satan and his demons who surround the camp of God's saints.

The saints win. :banana:


sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:10 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:ST, one simple question, "Are there original source texts available on which the various translations are based for people to study?"

If your response is yes, then my original statement is correct within that context.

If your response is no, then how has God preserved His word within the context of what I was writing about?


The definition of "Original Source Text" is.......

A source text is a text (sometimes oral) from which information or ideas are derived. In translation, a source text is the original text that is to be translated into another language.

Your question...." Are there original source texts available ....."

The answer is no. Not even the smallest fragment of an Original Source text is available or extant.

I am unable to answer how God has Preserved His Word within the context of what you were writing about.

I don't even understand what exactly you are asking me in that question.


The only point I was making is that there are no Original Texts extant. So your statement, "if people are able to go to the original texts", is not possible to do.

We can discuss how, in General, God has preserved His Glorious Word, but I'm not sure it would be in the context of what you said in particular.

But again, that conversation generally ends with people entrenched in certain beliefs about the accuracy of this or that Older or Later manuscripts.


ST, if you are not willing to answer the complete question asked, then your posted response against what I have written is a false argument.

You have qualified your response only on the portion that you wish to respond to, and which you also know, I have agreed with. However, you have deliberately chosen to ignore the whole question being asked where I had asked the following: -

"Are there original source texts available on which the various translations are based for people to study?"

You focused only on this part of the question with your response: -

" Your question...." Are there original source texts available ....."

ST, no matter how many times you repeat yourself, it does not demonstrate that there is an error in the overall context of what I had originally posted above. I also note you have stated that you have not commented on any other part of my post except for the six words which you have restricted your comments to. This only demonstrates that you are attempting to re-inforce a false argument without attempting to provide a constructive apology in response to my post as a whole.

Shalom
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1572
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:05 pm

Jay Ross wrote:ST, if you are not willing to answer the complete question asked, then your posted response against what I have written is a false argument.

You are free to think that. All I did was state a fact regarding the nonexistence of Original Texts.
Jay Ross wrote:You have qualified your response only on the portion that you wish to respond to, and which you also know, I have agreed with.

You did not agree completely. You said....
Jay Ross wrote:ST you are right in that there are no complete "original" texts in existence today, but my understanding is that the fragments that have been found of the "original"/earliest available scrolls etc.,..........

You wrote....."original"/earliest available scrolls "
To use the "/" means these are the same thing........And we do not agree here. There ARE "Earliest Available Scrolls", but None of them , None, Zero of them are the "Original" Scrolls.

I understand what Abiding has mentioned also...there ARE Very Early Scrolls that are a WITNESS TO the Originals...The Dead Sea Scrolls are a good Example. But They are Not the "Original" Texts. As old as they are, they are Still Not the "Original Text"

Jay Ross wrote:You focused only on this part of the question with your response: -" Your question...." Are there original source texts available ....."

Correct...here is the second part
Jay Ross wrote:......on which the various translations are based for people to study?"

And the answer is still no. If there ARE NONE of the "Original Source Texts Available", How can there be Any for Any translator to use for study?

If they do not still exist, you can never study the Actual Original Text.

Jay Ross wrote:ST, no matter how many times you repeat yourself, it does not demonstrate that there is an error in the overall context of what I had originally posted above.

You can think that. I have made it clear that it is impossible to study the Original Text.
And you said the following....
Jay Ross wrote:All of the above is in plain sight to read and understand if people are able to go to the original texts and study it for themselves.

So, none of us can do that Jay. It is not possible, because the original texts do not exist.

Jay Ross wrote: This only demonstrates that you are attempting to re-inforce a false argument without attempting to provide a constructive apology in response to my post as a whole.

I have not made a false argument, I have stated a Fact.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:52 pm

kirthril wrote:
Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


Revelation 16 The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


For me the issue of the rapture is made clear in just these 3 (out of many) passages.

It is absolutely made clear that:

1. There is only 1 gathering of the elect to Christ
2. It will happen just like in Noah's time, on the same day as wrath befalls the world
3. The gathering takes place AFTER- A. The falling away happens, B. The AC is revealed.
4. Christians (not unbelievers) are the one being told to behold, Christ comes like a thief in the night to take his bride, one taken another left.
5. There is not a single verse mentioning 3 total comings of Christ and no mention of 2 separate sets of elect believers being gathered separately in all scripture. No to separate "thief" events. It is one coming and one coming only.
................

We will be here through the tribulation. Many Christians will abandon the faith during this time following those already adhering to false teaching. The AC will rampage and the world will be at war. But at some point towards the end (but for the sake of the elect I will shorten those days), Christ returns, gets his people out of here, and preceeds to pour out his wrath on the earth during the final (30-45?) days of the AC's reign.

Notice it is after his "behold I come as a thief" in revelation that the armies assemble at Armageddon. So there is definitely a period of time during the time of wrath that God allows the armies to transfer and assemble.

But the point is, the very same "behold I come as a thief" is a quote from Matthew regarding the Groom coming in the night like a thief for his bride. When does the groom come to gather his bride? As it was in the time of Noah... on the same day Noah was shut up in the ark, the rains fell. When does the groom gather his bride? After the falling away, after the revealing of the AC.

people say there are contradictions in some of the rapture views, but I see no contradictions here. These 3 passages alone confirm it.

:2cents:

What you've written, I agree with completely, and without contradiction. :a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby Jericho on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:54 pm

There's too much to respond to, so just a few points...

shorttribber wrote:It would only take Two to be preserved alive.ST, what two people and where do you see that in scripture?
shorttribber: Where do you find it said in scripture that Many enter in instead of Two?


I'm not sure where you're going with this. The reason I asked Woody who will populate the millennium is because if the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation the wicked are removed and the righteous are given glorified bodies. Meaning there would be no flesh left to repopulate the world.

shorttribber wrote:His "Judgments" Effect the whole world, yes, that does not ALSO mean that his "Judgments' ARE His "Wrath".
I believe his Judgments will Effect the saints in a Powerful and Positive way, not in a Negative way.


Concerning the scriptures you cited, there is a distinction from tribulation that comes from the world, and tribulation that comes from God. If all tribulation is positive then why does Jesus says "pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man"? (Luk 21:36)

shorttribber wrote:You can disagree, that's ok, but we are not here for the Vials/Bowls.


I don't disagree with that, but where we would disagree is I would include the Seals also. But that is another topic altogether.

shorttribber wrote:The two words are not synonymous Jericho.........


If we are dealing with God's judgement then I believe it is. If God is judging then he's pouring out his wrath, and if he is pouring out is wrath then He is judging.

shorttribber wrote:In Rev12 we are Clearly and Plainly told that the great tribulation is "satan's" Wrath", NOT "God's Wrath".


It is God who kicks Satan out of heaven and confines him to earth in the first place in Rev 12. Satan is on the receving end of God's judgement. And it is God who can also use others as His instruments of judgement. For example, he used the Assyrians to judge Israel and the Babylonians to judge Judah, who were intern judged and destroyed. In Rev 9 the angel is given the key to open the bottomless pit. These demons let loose are the ones tormenting men, but it is God who allows it to happen as a form of judgement.
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:57 pm

Sonbeam wrote:I see the same thing in the scriptures Kirthril.One gathering.
Bowls of wrath poured out on those left behind right after.
Universe destroyed during this time.
I see Armageddon as a spiritual battle though .... between Satan and his demons who surround the camp of God's saints.The saints win.


:a3: I just don't know how exactly Armageddon transpires.....but the best part is....

:banana: The Saints Win! :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:23 pm

Jericho wrote:I'm not sure where you're going with this. The reason I asked Woody who will populate the millennium is because if the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation the wicked are removed and the righteous are given glorified bodies. Meaning there would be no flesh left to repopulate the world.

Was only mentioning that God could use two survivors of His wrath to repopulate...that is all I was saying.
Jericho wrote:Concerning the scriptures you cited, there is a distinction from tribulation that comes from the world, and tribulation that comes from God. If all tribulation is positive then why does Jesus says "pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man"? (Luk 21:36)

I have never said that all tribulation is positive. As far as WHAT Exactly we are told to pray that we escape from is found in the verse above those very words.....
Here they are....
Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Let me put another text out for reinforcement of WHAT THINGS Jesus is referring to that we should Pray to "FLEE FROM", for that is the Meaning of the Geek word "Escape" that Jesus uses in Luke 21:36.

Math 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to ]eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jericho wrote:I don't disagree with that, but where we would disagree is I would include the Seals also. But that is another topic altogether.

Another discussion as you say.
Jericho wrote:If we are dealing with God's judgement then I believe it is. If God is judging then he's pouring out his wrath, and if he is pouring out is wrath then He is judging.

If that is so, then God already has poured out his wrath at 70 ad...why is He pouring it out again? There is Judgement without the Wrath in a total and final sense. There are many judgments that can come from God that are not his wrath.
Jericho wrote:It is God who kicks Satan out of heaven and confines him to earth in the first place in Rev 12. Satan is on the receving end of God's judgement. And it is God who can also use others as His instruments of judgement. For example, he used the Assyrians to judge Israel and the Babylonians to judge Judah, who were intern judged and destroyed. In Rev 9 the angel is given the key to open the bottomless pit. These demons let loose are the ones tormenting men, but it is God who allows it to happen as a form of judgement.

Actually it's Michael that kicks satan out...but beside that, of course God is in control of all things. Can we just look at what the Text Plainly Says instead of looking behind the scene as to Who is responsible for this or that action Allowed by God?

The Text says it is satan's wrath, not God's. Why the selective literalism? Just read the text as it is written Jericho.


Must add this in Jericho, after reading again....
The text does Not Actually say that Michael does personally cast out satan......following what I have already said about reading what the text actually says, it is unknown who (God or Michael) actually does the casting out.
So, you could be right in that regard, and what I said to the contrary may be error.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:40 am

kirthril wrote:
Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


Revelation 16 The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


For me the issue of the rapture is made clear in just these 3 (out of many) passages.

It is absolutely made clear that:

1. There is only 1 gathering of the elect to Christ
2. It will happen just like in Noah's time, on the same day as wrath befalls the world
3. The gathering takes place AFTER- A. The falling away happens, B. The AC is revealed.
4. Christians (not unbelievers) are the one being told to behold, Christ comes like a thief in the night to take his bride, one taken another left.
5. There is not a single verse mentioning 3 total comings of Christ and no mention of 2 separate sets of elect believers being gathered separately in all scripture. No to separate "thief" events. It is one coming and one coming only.
................

We will be here through the tribulation. Many Christians will abandon the faith during this time following those already adhering to false teaching. The AC will rampage and the world will be at war. But at some point towards the end (but for the sake of the elect I will shorten those days), Christ returns, gets his people out of here, and preceeds to pour out his wrath on the earth during the final (30-45?) days of the AC's reign.

Notice it is after his "behold I come as a thief" in revelation that the armies assemble at Armageddon. So there is definitely a period of time during the time of wrath that God allows the armies to transfer and assemble.

But the point is, the very same "behold I come as a thief" is a quote from Matthew regarding the Groom coming in the night like a thief for his bride. When does the groom come to gather his bride? As it was in the time of Noah... on the same day Noah was shut up in the ark, the rains fell. When does the groom gather his bride? After the falling away, after the revealing of the AC.

people say there are contradictions in some of the rapture views, but I see no contradictions here. These 3 passages alone confirm it.

:2cents:


:a3: to that....I agree!!

I have a friendly question, if Jesus comes LIKE a thief, a thief would take something that does not belong to him, so why does it say he comes as a thief then? to toss the wicked first? I know that the interpretation could also mean the thief comes unexpectedly as we must watch if you know the thief is coming that night.... just wondering...

The Tares and the Wheat parable.... the wicked are taken first, then the wheat...

I need a clarification, thanks... and blessings...
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:52 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:I have a friendly question, if Jesus comes LIKE a thief, a thief would take something that does not belong to him, so why does it say he comes as a thief then? to toss the wicked first? I know that the interpretation could also mean the thief comes unexpectedly as we must watch if you know the thief is coming that night.... just wondering...The Tares and the Wheat parable.... the wicked are taken first, then the wheat...I need a clarification, thanks... and blessings...

The Separation (Grouping Together/Bundling Together) of the wicked FROM the Just (Elect) is what occurs first. The destruction of the wicked occurs AFTER the Just are removed. The wicked are Then destroyed by God's Wrath.
remember Woody, the tares are separated into Bundles, Grouped together, TO BE Burned...After the Just are gathered away to Christ.

Still fits the Pattern Perfectly with many Bible Texts...including the Valley of Decision/Sheep Goat separation...Wise Foolish Separation ....Wheat Tare Separation....Watchful Faithful from the Drunken Rebellious Separation.
Oil or No Oil Virgins Separation.

This pattern of Separation is consistent when reading the Great Tribulation event texts.

Hope this helps.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5466
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:08 am

shorttribber wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:I have a friendly question, if Jesus comes LIKE a thief, a thief would take something that does not belong to him, so why does it say he comes as a thief then? to toss the wicked first? I know that the interpretation could also mean the thief comes unexpectedly as we must watch if you know the thief is coming that night.... just wondering...The Tares and the Wheat parable.... the wicked are taken first, then the wheat...I need a clarification, thanks... and blessings...

The Separation (Grouping Together/Bundling Together) of the wicked FROM the Just (Elect) is what occurs first. The destruction of the wicked occurs AFTER the Just are removed. The wicked are Then destroyed by God's Wrath.
remember Woody, the tares are separated into Bundles, Grouped together, TO BE Burned...After the Just are gathered away to Christ.

Still fits the Pattern Perfectly with many Bible Texts...including the Valley of Decision/Sheep Goat separation...Wise Foolish Separation ....Wheat Tare Separation....Watchful Faithful from the Drunken Rebellious Separation.
Oil or No Oil Virgins Separation.

This pattern of Separation is consistent when reading the Great Tribulation event texts.

Hope this helps.


Yes, this helped a lot and Thank You Shorty!!! :banana:
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: Ezekiel 38 to meet for talks in April

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:11 pm

Parables are teachings "thrown alongside" a familiar sort of story.

It's just like the fig tree. You know when you look at the fig tree, and it's getting leaves, you know summer is coming. In the same way, when you see these things coming to pass, you know I'm coming. (loose paraphrase)

The signs are like the leaves, they announce the coming one.

There are people who endeavor to understand a meaning to every detail of parables, like this one. The teaching is simple. Watch the signs, it shows the times.

Oh - the fig tree is Israel, and the budding is the nation, and the generation is 40 years . . . wait, that passed . . . 70 years . . . that's sooner than a month away.

You can make yourself crazy that way.

Or you can simply watch the fulfilling of the prophecies, as they are actually fulfilled, and know His coming is near.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13790
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Whatever (Almost)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest