Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Discussion not limited to prophecy.

Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:57 am

shorttribber wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:Does anybody want to go to Jerusalem to find that out? :)

Not planning on it :mrgreen: There is only one sign though that Every Eye will See...I'm sure you know the one to wich I refer. :grin:


:lol: Yes!!
In Christ Always,
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:01 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:Brett,
Why can't we see this "SIGN" with our naked eyes?

At Jesus birth, the SIGNS were obvious.... people followed the Star....

I'm pretty sure that it is able to be seen with the naked eye over Jerusalem Woody.

Correct me if I'm wrong brett....I know Woody asked you, hope you don't mind my answering the question though...but what I said is correct I think isn't it?


Does anybody want to go to Jerusalem to find that out? :)



I do, but alas, reality dictates......
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:03 pm

.
I'm currently seeking other peoples opinions on this matter. I myself am starting to DOUBT this sign now after I watched a sermon by a pastor I respect. He seemed to rubbish the sign as being nonsense.....

So I'm not so sure anymore.....I sincerely hope it is a load of rubbish.....that would make me feel a lot better. But I'm hoping some other pastors I respect will touch on this topic soon........

I'm not yet willing to ignore this Sign.........but I may be heading in that general direction........needing to hear from other pastors.
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The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:14 pm

brett wrote:So I'm not so sure anymore.....I sincerely hope it is a load of rubbish


It's the Difference between Biblical Astronomy and Astrology brett.

One MEANING of it is Real, Truthful, and Relevant as a Sign from God....Just as He gave it to John.

One is a Lie, and Rubbish....soon we will all Clearly know the Difference between two Explanations for this Sign, and Why it is occurring on the exact Days that it is.

:clock:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:04 am

brett wrote:.


I'm not yet willing to ignore this Sign.........but I may be heading in that general direction........needing to hear from other pastors.


Brett,
Ask God instead of pastors... most pastors are clueless and we should not depend on their opinions....
In Christ Always,
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:31 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
brett wrote:.


I'm not yet willing to ignore this Sign.........but I may be heading in that general direction........needing to hear from other pastors.


Brett,
Ask God instead of pastors... most pastors are clueless and we should not depend on their opinions....

This is what I almost wrote also Woody :(
It sounds harsh, but wow, it's becoming more and more true as time goes by.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:54 am

Fear is not from God. If it's not from God, then where must it be from?


:armor:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:08 am

mark s wrote:Fear is not from God. If it's not from God, then where must it be from?


:armor:

:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby member x on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:47 pm

brett wrote:.
I'm currently seeking other peoples opinions on this matter. I myself am starting to DOUBT this sign now after I watched a sermon by a pastor I respect. He seemed to rubbish the sign as being nonsense.....

So I'm not so sure anymore.....I sincerely hope it is a load of rubbish.....that would make me feel a lot better. But I'm hoping some other pastors I respect will touch on this topic soon........

I'm not yet willing to ignore this Sign.........but I may be heading in that general direction........needing to hear from other pastors.


Brett - just wanted to say I think it is great you are researching this and willing to put up a post like this. It's hard to admit when we are wrong or potentially wrong, so I applaud you.

I have to say that the events over the past week - specifically around the weather and earthquake sure made me ponder the time we live in.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:23 pm

I'm about 60/40 on this. 60 - still think its real....40 - maybe its rubbish.

.
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The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:16 pm

brett wrote:I'm about 60/40 on this. 60 - still think its real....40 - maybe its rubbish.

.

There is a real and accurate Biblical interpretation of it, 100%, and There is also a 100% False and deceptive interpretation of it....that's what I'm saying.

Both of the two will be in conflict with the other probably when those days arrive.

That is what I am expecting....we wait and see.

I could be wrong or right about that too.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Shelby on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:18 pm

shorttribber wrote:
brett wrote:So I'm not so sure anymore.....I sincerely hope it is a load of rubbish


It's the Difference between Biblical Astronomy and Astrology brett.

One MEANING of it is Real, Truthful, and Relevant as a Sign from God....Just as He gave it to John.

One is a Lie, and Rubbish....soon we will all Clearly know the Difference between two Explanations for this Sign, and Why it is occurring on the exact Days that it is.

:clock:


:a3:
The Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Rev. 22:17
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Shelby on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:20 pm

shorttribber wrote:
brett wrote:I'm about 60/40 on this. 60 - still think its real....40 - maybe its rubbish.

.

There is a real and accurate Biblical interpretation of it, 100%, and There is also a 100% False and deceptive interpretation of it....that's what I'm saying.


:a3:
The Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
Rev. 22:17
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:45 pm

Hi Shelby....good to hear from you again :grin:

Blessings to ya
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:59 pm

.
The one thing that makes me still believe in this 23rd Sep Sign is the account in Matthew of the Magi (wisemen) who journeyed to Jerusalem following a star - because they discerned this star as heralding the birth of Jesus. This star was a real star in the heavens at Christ's birth, whatever was going on in the heavens (zodiac/constellations) at that time it was able to communicate this information to the wisemen. That a special King had been born in Jerusalem. How does such an account get put in the book of Matthew if all this "star stuff" is just rubbish? Obviously God did use the stars to communicate this information to the wisemen.

If God did it back then for the birth of Jesus then why wouldn't He do something now, for Christs return? This 23rd Sept sign mirrors what is described in Rev 12 - (apart from the dragon part - that is harder to find)..... what are the chances of the stars doing such a thing just by chance? So even though a Pastor I respect said its rubbish.....I am still leaning towards thinking it means something. Although to be honest I hope it is just rubbish - I would much prefer it to be rubbish because then I wouldn't need to be as concerned about the matter.....

I wish other Pastors I respect would at least discuss the matter, they are just not wanting to talk about it, not interested. Too busy it seems.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:00 am

brett wrote:.
The one thing that makes me still believe in this 23rd Sep Sign is the account in Matthew of the Magi (wisemen) who journeyed to Jerusalem following a star - because they discerned this star as heralding the birth of Jesus. This star was a real star in the heavens at Christ's birth, whatever was going on in the heavens (zodiac/constellations) at that time it was able to communicate this information to the wisemen. That a special King had been born in Jerusalem. How does such an account get put in the book of Matthew if all this "star stuff" is just rubbish? Obviously God did use the stars to communicate this information to the wisemen.

If God did it back then for the birth of Jesus then why wouldn't He do something now, for Christs return? This 23rd Sept sign mirrors what is described in Rev 12 - (apart from the dragon part - that is harder to find)..... what are the chances of the stars doing such a thing just by chance? So even though a Pastor I respect said its rubbish.....I am still leaning towards thinking it means something. Although to be honest I hope it is just rubbish - I would much prefer it to be rubbish because then I wouldn't need to be as concerned about the matter.....

I wish other Pastors I respect would at least discuss the matter, they are just not wanting to talk about it, not interested. Too busy it seems.

.


Brett,
It does't matter what the pastors think, If the AC does reveal, you would know it and I don't think many pastors would believe if the AC is here, so are you going to trust them when they say "that's not the AC??

Many pastors has already deceived many flocks that the rapture would happen before the AC....
Remember, the author of confusion is not of God....

Many blessings.... we shall know.... :)
Trust the Lord like the wisemen did....
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:31 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Brett,It does't matter what the pastors think, If the AC does reveal, you would know it and I don't think many pastors would believe if the AC is here, so are you going to trust them when they say "that's not the AC??
Many pastors has already deceived many flocks that the rapture would happen before the AC....
Remember, the author of confusion is not of God.... Many blessings.... we shall know.... :)
Trust the Lord like the wisemen did


Really good advice Woody.... :a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:10 am

Regarding the Bethlehem Star, my question to anyone is this . . . How can a star in the sky stand over a single house?

Since stars are so far away, their parallax requires a long distance to discern a difference in viewing angle. That's just to see the star as being in a slightly different direction. Can a star in the sky stand over a single house? I don't think so.

Now, if I ask a different question . . . Can a supernatural star sign in the sky stand over a single house? I think so.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Loop on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:51 pm

mark s wrote:Regarding the Bethlehem Star, my question to anyone is this . . . How can a star in the sky stand over a single house?

Since stars are so far away, their parallax requires a long distance to discern a difference in viewing angle. That's just to see the star as being in a slightly different direction. Can a star in the sky stand over a single house? I don't think so.

Now, if I ask a different question . . . Can a supernatural star sign in the sky stand over a single house? I think so.

Much love,
Mark


Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

Judges 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

Numbers 24:17 I see him, but not now;
    I behold him, but not near:
a star shall come out of Jacob,
    and a scepter shall rise out of Israel;
it shall crush the forehead of Moab
    and break down all the sons of Sheth
Psalms 91
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:26 pm

i would agree with Mark, that most likely the 'star' at Bethlehem was a supernatural use of a physical celestial body, as was the sun and moon stopping for a time while Israel battled(Joshua 10) and the sun apparently moving backward as a sign in the OT, and darkness coming over the land for 3 hours at the crucifixion (total eclipses do not last for 3 hours). So also the sun and moon being darkened at Christ's return at armaggedon will likely be a supernatural event.

Some have made the case that the Bethlehem star that was visible in the eastern sky was Venus, or a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus. Jupiter and Venus could come in close proximity and be seen in the east, then separate for a time and rejoin, going into retrograde, appearing again in the east at a later time. Venus could rise in the eastern sky and be seen just above the horizon over a certain location, if one knew where the initial point of viewing would be (at the gate of Bethlehem, the center of the city, the outskirts of the city?) and the exact date of the viewing, one might be able to pinpoint a location. Seems a bit complicated...
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:47 pm

On the other hand, the sign in Rev 12 appears to be a literal, physical appearance and movement of celestial bodies, it is natural event that God uses to mark a certain time.

But to understand the sign, one might need a little context. Ps 147 and Isa 40 state that God has counted the stars and named each of them. As God has named the stars it is believed that He has also named the grouping of stars known as constellations, which would make sense, some of which are mentioned in scripture (Job). Ps 19 states that the' Heavens declare the glory of God...Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.' It appears that there is a message in the stars. Ps 19 also describes the circuit of the sun, rising at one end of the heavens and going to the other, a pathway that traverses 12 constellations, known as the Mazzaroth or Zodiac.

It is believed that the constellations and the names and symbols originally associated with them tell the story of God's redemption of mankind. Over the years men have corrupted the meanings and distorted the message making some unrecognizable. But some are still recognizable, the Lion, the man wrestling with the serpent, the woman, etc.

Different cultures have had different names and symbols for the constellations, but it appears that the culture most likely to use the original meanings of the constellations would be that of the Hebrews, the 12 constellations of the circuit of the sun being known as the Mazzaroth. This is further explored in Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars', an interesting piece on Biblical Astronomy.

Also it appears that each of the 12 tribes of Israel are associated with the 12 constellations of the Mazzaroth. Joseph had a dream of the sun and moon, his father and mother, and 12 stars, he and his brothers. Also when Jacob made statements regarding his son's at his death, the statements he made could have some association with the 12 constellations (the Lion, water, the bow, etc).

So when one looks at a sign involving stars and constellations in the scripture, one might approach it from a Hebrew perspective, looking at Hebrew history and God's dealings with Israel.

From the Hebrew perspective of the stars, the 'woman' would be identified as what is now called Virgo, also symbolizing Israel. The crown of 12 stars, 12 being associated with the 12 tribes, the 12 tribes being associated with 12 constellations, in a circle or circuit, the crown would then be the Mazzaroth, the circle of 12 constellations of which Virgo is a part that could be pictured as being above her head.

This already changes the interpretation of Rev 12 from what has been portrayed previously. So it does matter from which perspective or context one uses to interpret a celestial sign in scripture.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:46 pm

Great comments 1WW....very helpful. :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:03 am

shorttribber wrote:Great comments 1WW....very helpful. :grin:


Yes, WOW....very astute to say the least. Thank you 1WW.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:13 am

This is a great demonstration of my difficulty in mapping stars for signs declaring future events and timetables.

These phrases such as "appears to be", "it is believed", these are all indicative of the arcane nature of interpreting signs in the stars. What is the correct key? There are so many! But nothing authoritative. There are multiple meanings assigned to the same signs, I just very seriously question whether God meant for us to be trying to determine the timing of future events by mapping stars.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:00 am

mark s wrote:...........I just very seriously question whether God meant for us to be trying to determine the timing of future events by mapping stars.


Some could do that mark, and it would be wrong. That is not what is being done by any of us here on this forum though.

The Word of God is shown to be in agreement with the idea that the heavenly bodies are clearly for signs and seasons.
Balance is the key, we are not to be Directed "By the Stars", but by God...and since He has incorporated them To Some Degree, as "Signs", we should at the Very Least Believe that.....and look to see How He Means That.

Now, I have said that the coming sign caries an entirely different meaning than what many Christians are talking so much about.....guess we will find out soon.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:45 am

Hi ST,

What I see is people putting dates next to events because those are the days that the stars are in certain positions, and those positions signify certain events.

Yes, the Bible is clear about signs in the heavens, and that the celestial lights are to mark days and seasons.

But . . . isn't God able to speak to us so that we can be sure to understand? It seems to me that this is exactly what He does. The things He tells us, it's because He wants for us to know those things. If that's true, then shouldn't we be looking for signs that are clearly seen, and clearly understood? Being His children? And if it's not true, then what are we doing anyway?

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:53 am

I have really tried to follow this and beat myself up with the scripture "My people suffer for lack of knowledge...." and then I get resentful, because
1) My brain is just not that well educated.
2) While I know the scriptures, I can't roll them all off my head so as to associate particular verses with stars, planets and other astrological things lining up (or not).
3) I have a full time job....does God really expect me to be able to focus on this stuff (as it would take hours upon hours) to figure out what He wants me to see in the sky? If I dont get it figured out, does that make me a lazy Christian? I sure hope not, because the demands of my life are such that I don't have these hours and hours ....or the energy......to figure all this stuff out....and even if I did, am I smart enough to have it all in my head like would be required? If I were a Wise woman, and that were my job, then sure, I could work something out.....but man, my head is over full and this just makes me a little more than crazy......
Why? I dont want to scoff, and if our Father is showing us something, I dont want to miss it....but I dont want to put false stuff out there, either.

I am grateful to the post of 1WW, because it's intelligent, well presented, and more than anything, clearly shows the complexity in even beginning to try and follow this.

May God forgive me if I am not putting forth enough effort.....but now I need to get back to work and after that I need to cook dinner for His son, my husband.....and.....I think we all get my point. :alrighty:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:58 am

Hi GS,

Remember . . . It is for freedom that Christ set us free. His yoke is easy, His burden is light. His desire is for us to be His children, we can be as children with Him.

Faith, trust, this is the true key to all things with God. Believe that He will tell you what you need to know. He will. He absolutely will. And you can rest . . . relax . . . stretch out and recline . . . in that fact. He leads you, a Good Shepherd. Its what He wants to do.

Much love,

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:01 am

GodsStudent wrote:I have really tried to follow this and beat myself up with the scripture "My people suffer for lack of knowledge...."


One other thought . . . I don't think this is the lack of knowledge people suffer because of. I think the true knowledge that people forget, and suffer for, is God's love, grace, and forgiveness. What it means to be loved by God, and to be His child.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:50 am

mark s wrote:Yes, the Bible is clear about signs in the heavens, and that the celestial lights are to mark days and seasons. But . . . isn't God able to speak to us so that we can be sure to understand?

Not always mark...the scriptures are full of difficult areas for us to understand.
mark s wrote: It seems to me that this is exactly what He does.

He doesn't tell us many things...exactly.
mark s wrote: The things He tells us, it's because He wants for us to know those things.

True, but he doesn't tell everyone all the time...I guess he seems to tell us all at a different pace sometimes...a need to know basis maybe.

mark s wrote:If that's true, then shouldn't we be looking for signs that are clearly seen, and clearly understood?

Probably. On that note...keeping the sign of the woman in mind...what would you think the Word "NOW" means in the following text.
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

What is clear to me, may not be as clear to you and many others.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:56 am

I guess a lot of blind people would be eliminated because they cannot see the "Signs".... :lol:

I'm just being sarcastic.... making a point on people being hard on themselves... :)
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:14 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:I guess a lot of blind people would be eliminated because they cannot see the "Signs".... :lol:

Right Woody, the signs can only be a contribution to the Primary Thing God wants us to know....that being The Gospel.

The Gospel, that's what we all NEED to Know....and Do.


The contribution to and fulfillment of the Gospel that I'm referring to, with reference to Rev 12 is primarily these two things...
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


and here...
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:17 am

what would you think the Word "NOW" means in the following text.
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


September 23rd, 2017..... :armor: :lol:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:22 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:Yes, the Bible is clear about signs in the heavens, and that the celestial lights are to mark days and seasons. But . . . isn't God able to speak to us so that we can be sure to understand?

Not always mark...the scriptures are full of difficult areas for us to understand.
mark s wrote: It seems to me that this is exactly what He does.

He doesn't tell us many things...exactly.


Hi ST,

God is not able to speak to us in ways we can understand?

Let's look at the Bible as a spiritual book. The natural man does not understand it. It is only by the Spirit that the spiritual man does. So understanding comes as the Spirit provides it. Therefore, where there is a lack of understanding, it is because the Spirit, for whatever reason, has not provided it.

Now, let's look at God as our Father Who loves us totally, which being God, is an aweful lot of love!

He's promised us everything, and wants us to have abundance in this life. (I don't mean everyone gets rich . . . for many, that would take away from their abundance.) Jesus said He came that we would have life, and not just life, but abundant life.

So then the only thing standing in His way is what I believe He can do. If I don't believe He can do it, then I'm not even trying to live that way. But when I really believe that He gives me life, and is here with me, then every door is open. Because I advance through them in faith.

If I've shut doors through my unbelief, then that is the roadblock.

But all that being said, it still comes down to a subjective experience in my spirit with His Spirit, no matter how grand or immense. But I can know the reality of "my subjective experience" when my life is conformed to the Scriptures. When the words I read become my life. The words I read. They are knowable. They stay the same.

And according to Hebrews, the more I do the parts I know, the more I will know what is right and wrong, and my understanding will mature.

But it still comes down to what the Bible says.

mark s wrote: The things He tells us, it's because He wants for us to know those things.

True, but he doesn't tell everyone all the time...I guess he seems to tell us all at a different pace sometimes...a need to know basis maybe.


Maybe . . . ready to know.

mark s wrote:If that's true, then shouldn't we be looking for signs that are clearly seen, and clearly understood?

Probably.


Then why not leave it at that?

;-)

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:23 am

shorttribber wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:I guess a lot of blind people would be eliminated because they cannot see the "Signs".... :lol:

Right Woody, the signs can only be a contribution to the Primary Thing God wants us to know....that being The Gospel.

The Gospel, that's what we all NEED to Know....and Do.


The contribution to and fulfillment of the Gospel that I'm referring to, with reference to Rev 12 is primarily these two things...
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


and here...
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


:a3: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
In Christ Always,
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:45 am

One thing you didn't answer mark....what about the word "Now" in Rev 12....how do you understand it?

God is Able to tell us WHEN His Kingdom Comes, and He has Plainly done so in Revelation 12.

Are you ABLE and Ready to understand that He has?

:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:27 pm

Hi ST,

As I'm certain you understand, there is a lot that goes into that question. And there are many suppositions which people attach, or attach their understandings from this passage to others.

We could call it a "systematic eschatology" for simplicity's sake.

For instance, you've referred to this "now" as "the fulfillment of the Gospel". I'm not sure what you mean by that. It would help if you could explain that.

I can only guess how this may affect your understanding of my answer to you. This is why I did not answer your question, as there seemed to be a fair amount of unpacking to do. Simply put, it seemed to me a discussion ultimately winding up where it started, the meaning of words, when the reality is that we already understand at least the broad strokes of each other's eschatology, and we know our disagreement is much broader than anything specific to this particular passage.

And I really think it doesn't hang on the meaning of Now. I think the passage is pretty clearly stated, that when Satan is cast to the earth, this is the beginning of rulership which God had not been exerting, but now will.

Now, does that mean that this is when the rapture happens, or something like that, well, that would be a much more involved discussion.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:32 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
what would you think the Word "NOW" means in the following text.
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


September 23rd, 2017..... :armor: :lol:

Possibly Woody......not certainly, but certainly possible.

:read:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:52 pm

mark s wrote:you've referred to this "now" as "the fulfillment of the Gospel". I'm not sure what you mean by that. It would help if you could explain that.

The Gospel was given as a Promise in the beginning....that the serpent/dragon would be defeated by the Seed of the Woman.........in a Nut shell, THAT IS The Gospel.

mark s wrote:And I really think it doesn't hang on the meaning of Now.

As far as the Timing of the Casting Out/Down of the dragon, I think it Does have a great deal to do with the word "Now". It clearly places a Time for That Event Absolutely. Although we do not yet know Absolutely "That Time", we are told Absolutely that it Coincides Exactly with That Casting Out of the Dragon, Correct?

mark s wrote: I think the passage is pretty clearly stated, that when Satan is cast to the earth, this is the beginning of rulership which God had not been exerting, but now will.

Precisely! The Text Plainly says that the Kingdom of God Comes right then and there!

That time is what I believe this sign of Rev12 foretells, Not the Rapture.


The entire chapter twelve is in a Chiastic Structure....Repetition...Repetition....Repetition....Just like the sign occurs in Forms....and Repetition......only this time it is Very different.


The Focus...Center of the Chapter is the Casting Out/Down of the dragon! The answer to the meaning of the Sign is to Understand the Meaning of the Vision of the Woman itself....That is to understand the Gospel Promise in it.



That's what we are about to witness...and be Witnesses Of I believe.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:58 pm

Hi ST,

I'm interested in where the Bible would support that the wounding of the serpent is the fulfillment of the Gospel. I've come to think of the Gospel as being that Jesus died for the removal of my sins so that I can be reborn as God's child, and then know Him now and forevermore. Of course, I'd need to provide Scriptural backing for my view also.

Agreed, Now places a timing marker for the kingdom coming. It will coincide with the casting down of the dragon. Personally, I think the casting down of the dragon constitutes God's first act in the coming of the kingdom.

But then we have to answer when the casting down of the dragon occurs, and what else is occurring at the same time, and before and after, and what it means to the earth that God's kingdom has come? And before we we answer those there will be other details to nail down. But then, we come at things very differently.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:27 pm

mark s wrote:I'm interested in where the Bible would support that the wounding of the serpent is the fulfillment of the Gospel. I've come to think of the Gospel as being that Jesus died for the removal of my sins so that I can be reborn as God's child, and then know Him now and forevermore

The Promised Seed having been Foretold that Abraham also believed would come through him is the Gospel.
That we shall All receive the promise of eternal life. The Gospel was First Preached to Abraham.

Gal 3
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

mark s wrote:Agreed, Now places a timing marker for the kingdom coming. It will coincide with the casting down of the dragon. Personally, I think the casting down of the dragon constitutes God's first act in the coming of the kingdom.

Ok, good, now do you see that according to the text the great tribulation immediately FOLLOWS That Casting out?

mark s wrote:But then we have to answer when the casting down of the dragon occurs, and what else is occurring at the same time, and before and after, and what it means to the earth that God's kingdom has come?

Agreed, and I think the answer is plain on that...as I said above regarding the timing of the great trib and the casting out.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:30 pm

That time is what I believe this sign of Rev12 foretells, Not the Rapture.


Exactly! If the Man of Sin does reveal, the pre-tribulation rapture theory would be invalid.....
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:46 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm interested in where the Bible would support that the wounding of the serpent is the fulfillment of the Gospel. I've come to think of the Gospel as being that Jesus died for the removal of my sins so that I can be reborn as God's child, and then know Him now and forevermore

The Promised Seed having been Foretold that Abraham also believed would come through him is the Gospel.
That we shall All receive the promise of eternal life. The Gospel was First Preached to Abraham.

Gal 3
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

OK, then that would mean the promise of the messiah is the Gospel, so then it was fulfilled in Jesus' death, isn't that what it would mean?

But again, this is a discussion we've had previously. The issue isn't with the peripherals, as it were, rather, with the broad strokes. You read with a Chiastic view of the writing, I don't find it to be so. Just that right there is going to separate our views onto two completely different roads. But there are more things than that, again, this has all been discussed before.

With that being said, I'd say I've said what I can say about this topic. You know what I'm saying?

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:47 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
That time is what I believe this sign of Rev12 foretells, Not the Rapture.


Exactly! If the Man of Sin does reveal, the pre-tribulation rapture theory would be invalid.....


That would be one possibility . . .

:wink:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:03 pm

mark s wrote:Gal 38 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

mark wrote: OK, then that would mean the promise of the messiah is the Gospel, so then it was fulfilled in Jesus' death, isn't that what it would mean?

Why do you say that? The Promise is to you and to as many as are afar off right? The Gospel does not only include Christ's death mark, why would you say that? Christ was Raised for our Justification "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,"

mark s wrote:But again, this is a discussion we've had previously.
I don't recall ever having this discussion. Not regarding the aspects we are now discussing...at least I can't remember having such a conversation.
mark s wrote: The issue isn't with the peripherals, as it were, rather, with the broad strokes. You read with a Chiastic view of the writing, I don't find it to be so.
Chiastic structure is there mark, it's very clear....we have had those discussions, yes, regarding chiastic form.
That does not change the Order of Events though mark.... the events are very Direct in the chapter.

mark s wrote:Just that right there is going to separate our views onto two completely different roads.

Why? I'm not basing the order of events on Chiastic structure.

I can prove that the Focus is on the Casting Down of the Loser though (By the Chiastic Structure).

mark s wrote:With that being said, I'd say I've said what I can say about this topic. You know what I'm saying?

I do understand....I know also that many things are very taxing on you physically lately, and I will not ask any more of you in that regard.

I have appreciated your comments.

:hugs:

Hope some others will take the baton from your hand and continue though.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:20 pm

mark s wrote:OK, then that would mean the promise of the messiah is the Gospel, so then it was fulfilled in Jesus' death, isn't that what it would mean?

1John 3
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose
the Son of God was manifested, that
he might destroy the works of the devil.



That is the Gospel...IN the Promised Seed.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:42 pm

HI ST,

OK, I follow your thought. Continue it if you would.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:56 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:Gal 38 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

mark wrote: OK, then that would mean the promise of the messiah is the Gospel, so then it was fulfilled in Jesus' death, isn't that what it would mean?

Why do you say that? The Promise is to you and to as many as are afar off right? The Gospel does not only include Christ's death mark, why would you say that? Christ was Raised for our Justification "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham,"


Hi ST,

Here is why I would say that. Jesus' death on the cross, and His resurrection from the grave, is the centerpoint from which all else hangs. Paul's argument in 1 Cor 15 is that everything we believe hangs on that one pivotal truth.

The means by which Jesus destroyed death was by His death. Fear of death is a chief weapon of the enemy. Jesus overcame death by death and resurrection, and having overcame death, freed us from the fear of death, and by that, from the power of the enemy. At least how I read it.

Remember . . . "You shall bruise His heel . . ."

I don't think crushing the serpent's head waits until the casting down of the dragon. I think the serpent's head was crushed as Jesus walked out of the grave.

mark s wrote:But again, this is a discussion we've had previously.
I don't recall ever having this discussion. Not regarding the aspects we are now discussing...at least I can't remember having such a conversation.
mark s wrote: The issue isn't with the peripherals, as it were, rather, with the broad strokes. You read with a Chiastic view of the writing, I don't find it to be so.
Chiastic structure is there mark, it's very clear....we have had those discussions, yes, regarding chiastic form.
That does not change the Order of Events though mark.... the events are very Direct in the chapter.


For one thing, you are in fact using a chiastic organization of the passage as an hermenuetic tool.

mark s wrote:Just that right there is going to separate our views onto two completely different roads.

Why? I'm not basing the order of events on Chiastic structure.

I can prove that the Focus is on the Casting Down of the Loser though (By the Chiastic Structure).


And this proves my point. I don't believe the passage is chiastic, and, I don't have it in front of me, but every time I've looked at suggestions that the Revelation was given in a chiastic pattern, I've found that for that to be so in my view, I'd have to make things equal that I don't think are equal.

mark s wrote:With that being said, I'd say I've said what I can say about this topic. You know what I'm saying?

I do understand....I know also that many things are very taxing on you physically lately, and I will not ask any more of you in that regard.


That's not it. I love these discussions! I've really been bouncing back pretty good these days, and I appreciate your concern, and your prayers! Thank you!

Its a matter of discussing details when we disagree on the broad strokes.

Much Love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:19 pm

As to Christ on the Cross as central to the Gospel...Absolutely! That's why I say that Daniel 9: 27 is the Absolute Center of Bible Prophecy...let's not go to that Scripture though....we know where that always leads......let's stay here on track in this thread.....


mark s wrote:Remember . . . "You shall bruise His heel . . ." I don't think crushing the serpent's head waits until the casting down of the dragon. I think the serpent's head was crushed as Jesus walked out of the grave.

It's a process mark, it Began at His Ministry, not at his death....Christ, manifest in the flesh....all things are not yet put under Christ's feat.

The Spiritual Casting Down is already made, that bruising, yes, but not That Bruising that results in His defeat as to his POWER OVER the SAINTS to Accuse the brethren...That is well in place still.

THAT :banana: is about to End :banana:

mark s wrote:For one thing, you are in fact using a chiastic organization of the passage as an hermenuetic tool.

Not so mark, I've had this understanding of Rev 12 for about 25 years....Long before I ever heard one word about Chiastic Structure.
mark s wrote:And this proves my point. I don't believe the passage is chiastic

And again, that doesn't matter. The Order of events remain the same, Chiastic or not.

mark s wrote: I don't believe the passage is chiastic, and, I don't have it in front of me, but every time I've looked at suggestions that the Revelation was given in a chiastic pattern, I've found that for that to be so in my view, I'd have to make things equal that I don't think are equal.

If you discard that idea, that's ok with me, as I said, I learned the order of events before any Chiastic influence at all.

mark s wrote:That's not it. I love these discussions! I've really been bouncing back pretty good these days, and I appreciate your concern, and your prayers! Thank you!

Glad to hear that....praise God for His Love and Grace.

:hugs: I love you deeply mark...thanx for continuing brother :hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:48 pm

Hello,

What I see is an understanding where the great timespans between events is being ignored.

What happens when Satan is cast down to the earth? Why, he is immediately thrown into the Bottomless pit for a period of 1,000 years and the pit is closed up and locked for that 1,000 year period such that Satan cannot exercise any influence over the people of the earth.

In Daniel 2 we are told that God will establish His everlasting kingdom during the time of those kings. In Isaiah 24:21-22 we know that Satan and his mates in heaven, the other wicked fallen heavenly hosts are judged in heaven at the same time that the kings of the earth are judged, and that they are all gathered together and imprisoned in the Pit, i.e. the bottomless pit to await the time of their judgement.

It is when Satan is released from the Bottomless pit that he realises that his time to exercise any influence over the peoples of the earth is short and he goes out from the pit with a vengeance over the whole face of the earth attacking the Saints, both of Israel and the Christians. This is often referred to as the “Great tribulation”.

In ST's posts, there is an omission that this time gap of 1,000 years exists in the narrative and he has condensed the book of Revelation into a few short years. Sadly, that is not the case.

Shalom

PS: The "Now" in Rev 12:10 does not convey, in my opinion, the intended meaning of the Greek word “Ἄρτι”. My understanding that “Ἄρτι” is better understood to have the meaning of, “At this time, . . . ”. What time? When Satan is thrown out of heaven.
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