Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Discussion not limited to prophecy.

Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Jay Ross wrote:In ST's posts, there is an omission that this time gap of 1,000 years exists in the narrative and he has condensed the book of Revelation into a few short years. Sadly, that is not the case.

We have discussed before the time gap that you're referring to....here is the place where you see that gap....
Rev 12
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
................................................................................................................................................



I do not think we have any reason in the text to find a thousand year gap here in this space Jay....where no scripture text exists.




................................................................................................................................................

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:02 pm

To the question on whether we should be trying to interpret what is clearly a sign in the heavens in Rev 12, it is true that our primary focus is the gospel and righteous living and bringing the lost to Christ. Understanding the gospel is relatively straightforward, it is easy, while prophetic scripture is somewhat difficult to understand, it is hard. Should we always concentrate on what is straightforward and easy, or is there a place for attempting to understand what is less straightforward and hard?

Does God intend for us to understand prophetic scripture before it is fulfilled, or are we to only wait for fulfillment and look back and say 'Well look at that, I guess He told us so'? When Jesus stated that the Jewish people did not know the time of their visitation, did He have some expectation that the should have known? Was His expectation that they should have known and understood the time of His coming based on the prophetic scripture that was available to them?

Does He have an expectation that we should know and understand His prophetic scripture?
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:15 pm

shorttribber wrote:<snip>
mark s wrote:Agreed, Now places a timing marker for the kingdom coming. It will coincide with the casting down of the dragon. Personally, I think the casting down of the dragon constitutes God's first act in the coming of the kingdom.

Ok, good, now do you see that according to the text the great tribulation immediately FOLLOWS That Casting out?

mark s wrote:But then we have to answer when the casting down of the dragon occurs, and what else is occurring at the same time, and before and after, and what it means to the earth that God's kingdom has come?

Agreed, and I think the answer is plain on that...as I said above regarding the timing of the great trib and the casting out.


St my above post was in response to what you wrote in this Post quoted above.

My statement that you have condensed Revelation 12 into a few short years stands and there is exactly 1,000 years between when Satan is cast out of heaven and when the "Great Tribulation", as it is labelled, will commence.

I did not, as you have so wrongly suggested, infer that there was a time gap of 1,000 years between when Satan will be cast out of heaven and when God will establish His everlasting Kingdom. That is your error.

What I suggested was that the Now/immediately as stated in your above post ignores the 1,000 year gap in time that is spoken about and confirmed elsewhere in scripture.

Revelation 12:10-17

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! > . . . insert the 1,000 year gap here . . .Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

13 Now/And when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:30 pm

Jay Ross wrote:I did not, as you have so wrongly suggested, infer that there was a time gap of 1,000 years between when Satan will be cast out of heaven and when God will establish His everlasting Kingdom. That is your error.

Where I placed the gap you see was an error on my part apparently.

Where you do see a gap is even more problematic though....as you've mentioned here....
Jay Ross wrote:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! > . . . insert the 1,000 year gap here .
.Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."



You can believe that your insertion ( of a 1,000 year gap) there in the text is not problematic, that's your choice.

Let the readers decide.

Let me show you jay one reason your idea is problematic....

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for (or Because{I added "because" in the parenthesis}) the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


Did you catch that jay? Do you think that it takes a THOUSAND YEARS for the dragon to SEE/SAW that he was cast to the earth?

Your idea on this is problematic jay.

Again, let the readers decide.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:46 pm

ST

In Isaiah 24:21-23 we are told the following: -

Isaiah 24:21-23

21 On that day the Lord will punish
the host of heaven, in heaven, {including and not just limited to Satan and the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12}
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
22 They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be confounded,
and the sun ashamed;
for the Lord of hosts will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
and before his elders he will manifest his glory.


In the above scriptures, it is apparent that Satan when he is judged in heaven, goes immediately into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years, before he is released for the little while period where he goes out to make war against God, the nation of Israel and the Christians, God's Saints. Not very problematically when we understand the above passage.

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:I did not, as you have so wrongly suggested, infer that there was a time gap of 1,000 years between when Satan will be cast out of heaven and when God will establish His everlasting Kingdom. That is your error.


Where I placed the gap you see was an error on my part apparently.
Yes it was an error on your part because you did not seek clarification from myself as to when I saw the 1,000 year gap between when Satan is imprisoned/flung down to the earth and when the "Great tribulation" occurring. I believe that the readers understand your presented false evidence in this case.

shorttribber wrote:Where you do see a gap is even more problematic though....as you've mentioned here....
Jay Ross wrote:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! > . . . insert the 1,000 year gap here .
.Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."



You can believe that your insertion ( of a 1,000 year gap) there in the text is not problematic, that's your choice.

Let the readers decide.

I am okay with that, the truth will shine through.

shorttribber wrote:Let me show you jay one reason your idea is problematic....

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for (or Because{I added "because" in the parenthesis}) the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


Did you catch that jay? Do you think that it takes a THOUSAND YEARS for the dragon to SEE/SAW that he was cast to the earth?

Your idea on this is problematic jay.


ST, you accuse me of having a problematic understanding of the scriptures, but you in your own defence of your ideas and understanding of Scripture demonstrate your own problematic understanding of scripture. You are attempting to use your own "logical" justification to argue against scripture and as such attempt to win your case against what I have posted.

You can try ST.

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:15 pm

Jay, when I wrote this......


9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for (or Because{I added "because" in the parenthesis}) the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


Did you catch that jay? Do you think that it takes a THOUSAND YEARS for the dragon to SEE/SAW that he was cast to the earth?

Your idea on this is problematic jay.

Again, let the readers decide.


You answered with this...
Jay Ross wrote:ST, you accuse me of having a problematic understanding of the scriptures, but you in your own defence of your ideas and understanding of Scripture demonstrate your own problematic understanding of scripture. You are attempting to use your own "logical" justification to argue against scripture and as such attempt to win your case against what I have posted.You can try ST.


:ummm: :what15: :goodnight: :clock:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:15 am

1whowaits wrote:To the question on whether we should be trying to interpret what is clearly a sign in the heavens in Rev 12, it is true that our primary focus is the gospel and righteous living and bringing the lost to Christ. Understanding the gospel is relatively straightforward, it is easy, while prophetic scripture is somewhat difficult to understand, it is hard. Should we always concentrate on what is straightforward and easy, or is there a place for attempting to understand what is less straightforward and hard?

Does God intend for us to understand prophetic scripture before it is fulfilled, or are we to only wait for fulfillment and look back and say 'Well look at that, I guess He told us so'? When Jesus stated that the Jewish people did not know the time of their visitation, did He have some expectation that the should have known? Was His expectation that they should have known and understood the time of His coming based on the prophetic scripture that was available to them?

Does He have an expectation that we should know and understand His prophetic scripture?


Not prophetic Scriptures, 1whowaits, we should study the prophecies, and take them as what they are, complete prophecies within themselves, which do not 'Require' external information for correct interpretation.

This goes towards the completeness of Scripture. Is the Bible God's full revelation? No, creation also reveals Him. What what does it reveal?

Romans 1:20 NKJV

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,


This is what creation reveals clearly.

Prophetic Scripture is different, it gives more and more specific information. But if we say was can only interpret it correctly if we include some outside information (star charts, and how to apply them), then we are saying the Bible is not enough on it's own.

But I'll still go back to my main objection, who decides which of the many astronomical interpretation should I use? Yours? Or anothers? They are different.

And just for reference . . . understanding the Gospel is not always the easiest thing!

;-)

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:27 pm

Mark, does God reveal everything about Himself in Scripture or the creation? Does God reveal everything about the future in scripture? Does God reveal everything about His creation in scripture? Is all that is knowable contained in scripture?

God chooses to reveal in scripture that which He wishes us to know, but He does not reveal everything. The creation reveals His existence and aspects of His personality, but it does not reveal all of God (we see through a glass darkly). And what the creation reveals is not always easily understood, sometimes we have to study and work for understanding.

In scripture God reveals to us what we need to know, about His plan for salvation, about righteous living, about what He is planning for the future. Scripture is complete as far as what God wishes us to know, what we need to know about Him, about pleasing Him, about salvation.

But individual prophecies are not necessarily complete by themselves. It often requires the compiling of many prophecies together to understand what is being indicated, single prophetic passages regarding the first coming of Christ would be difficult to interpret on their own, but taken together one could discern and first and second appearance of the Suffering Servant and Conquering King.

And at times some external information can aid in the understanding of particular scriptures. Some passages may seem a bit difficult to understand until the extra Biblical information of Jewish customs and rituals and timings are understood. What is the timetable God uses in the timing of future events? Could it be the cycle of the Hebrew appointed feasts and the planting and harvesting cycles? Are all of the nuances and customs contained in scripture? Are the nuances of the Hebrew language all explained in scripture, or is some extra Biblical study required?

And i would admit that Rev 12 is somewhat unusual as prophetic passages go. The understanding of who the woman is, who the child that rules is can be obtained from other scripture, scripture interprets scripture. But the interpretation of the sign in the heavens cannot be gleaned from any other passage in scripture. There is no interpretation of signs in the heavens primer in scripture, nothing about the movement of heavenly bodies or what represents the woman, the dragon, the child or God.

And yet God lays out a sign in the heavens and clearly describes it as a sign of significance, and yet does not give us the 'key' to interpret the sign within the context of scripture. Where do we go gain understanding about signs in the heavens if scripture tells us nothing about the movement of heavenly bodies and their associations? Should we just ignore this prophetic passage as unknowable?

If the information for understanding a sign in scripture is not contained in scripture, can information outside of scripture be referred to? Admittedly i would be hesitant to use outside sources, but those who worship God and seek to follow at least some of His commands could lend some insight.

As Jewish customs and feasts and language can lend some clearer understanding to certain passages, could the Hebrew understanding of the movement of heavenly bodies also lend some aspect of understanding?
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:56 pm

1whowaits wrote:Mark, does God reveal everything about Himself in Scripture or the creation? Does God reveal everything about the future in scripture? Does God reveal everything about His creation in scripture? Is all that is knowable contained in scripture?

God chooses to reveal in scripture that which He wishes us to know, but He does not reveal everything. The creation reveals His existence and aspects of His personality, but it does not reveal all of God (we see through a glass darkly). And what the creation reveals is not always easily understood, sometimes we have to study and work for understanding.

In scripture God reveals to us what we need to know, about His plan for salvation, about righteous living, about what He is planning for the future. Scripture is complete as far as what God wishes us to know, what we need to know about Him, about pleasing Him, about salvation.

But individual prophecies are not necessarily complete by themselves. It often requires the compiling of many prophecies together to understand what is being indicated, single prophetic passages regarding the first coming of Christ would be difficult to interpret on their own, but taken together one could discern and first and second appearance of the Suffering Servant and Conquering King.

And at times some external information can aid in the understanding of particular scriptures. Some passages may seem a bit difficult to understand until the extra Biblical information of Jewish customs and rituals and timings are understood. What is the timetable God uses in the timing of future events? Could it be the cycle of the Hebrew appointed feasts and the planting and harvesting cycles? Are all of the nuances and customs contained in scripture?

And i would admit that Rev 12 is somewhat unusual as prophetic passages go. The understanding of who the woman is, who the child that rules is can be obtained from other scripture, scripture interprets scripture. But the interpretation of the sign in the heavens cannot be gleaned from any other passage in scripture. There is no interpretation of signs in the heavens primer in scripture, nothing about the movement of heavenly bodies or what represents the woman, the dragon, the child or God.

And yet God lays out a sign in the heavens and clearly describes it as a sign of significance, and yet does not give us the 'key' to interpret the sign within the context of scripture. Where do we go gain understanding about signs in the heavens if scripture tells us nothing about the movement of heavenly bodies and their associations? Should we just ignore this prophetic passage as unknowable?

If the information for understanding a sign in scripture is not contained in scripture, can information outside of scripture be referred to? Admittedly i would be hesitant to use outside sources, but those who worship God and seek to follow at least some of His commands could lend some insight.

As Jewish customs and feasts and language can lend some clearer understanding to certain passages, could the Hebrew understanding of the movement of heavenly bodies also lend some aspect of understanding?

Wow, that was really good 1WW...praise God for the blessings of wisdom and understanding He has provided you with on this subject.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:01 pm

ST, hey, thanks.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:13 pm

1whowaits wrote:Mark, does God reveal everything about Himself in Scripture or the creation? Does God reveal everything about the future in scripture? Does God reveal everything about His creation in scripture? Is all that is knowable contained in scripture?


Hi 1whowaits,

I do not believe that everything that God could reveal is revealed in Scripture. I think we will spend forever learning more and more of Who God Is.

But when were talking about understanding Scriptures, I still must ask, what is the key to the stars??

Could it be the cycle of the Hebrew appointed feasts and the planting and harvesting cycles? Are all of the nuances and customs contained in scripture? Are the nuances of the Hebrew language all explained in scripture, or is some extra Biblical study required?


Could it? I don't know. Are they? Do we really have to have something more than the Holy Spirit and the Bible to understand the Bible?

But that notwithstanding . . .

And i would admit that Rev 12 is somewhat unusual as prophetic passages go. The understanding of who the woman is, who the child that rules is can be obtained from other scripture, scripture interprets scripture. But the interpretation of the sign in the heavens cannot be gleaned from any other passage in scripture. There is no interpretation of signs in the heavens primer in scripture, nothing about the movement of heavenly bodies or what represents the woman, the dragon, the child or God.


And there you have it. So how can you possibly state any position authoritatively?

And yet God lays out a sign in the heavens and clearly describes it as a sign of significance, and yet does not give us the 'key' to interpret the sign within the context of scripture. Where do we go gain understanding about signs in the heavens if scripture tells us nothing about the movement of heavenly bodies and their associations? Should we just ignore this prophetic passage as unknowable?


My question is this. Should we assume that when John said he saw a great sign in heaven, a red dragon, that he meant stars in their movements, rather than seeing in a vision a red dragon in the heavenly realm?

If we assume the stars, then we will keep running into this issue, no matter what, because the answer is not found in the Bible, therefore it cannot be authoritative.

If the information for understanding a sign in scripture is not contained in scripture, can information outside of scripture be referred to? Admittedly i would be hesitant to use outside sources, but those who worship God and seek to follow at least some of His commands could lend some insight.


Are you talking about going to those who are not born again, and who have some extremely erroneous ideas about God?

As Jewish customs and feasts and language can lend some clearer understanding to certain passages, could the Hebrew understanding of the movement of heavenly bodies also lend some aspect of understanding?


Should we look at the Kabbalah for information? Trust me, I don't think that's what you are suggesting, I'm just saying for the sake of argument.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:12 pm

mark s wrote:My question is this. Should we assume that when John said he saw a great sign in heaven, a red dragon, that he meant stars in their movements, rather than seeing in a vision a red dragon in the heavenly realm?


Good point....before I had heard about the stars sign long ago (Bollinger's work), I thought John was just seeing a vision of a dragon and a woman and so on. Definitely something to consider mark.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:43 pm

Mark, the evidence from Rev 12 would point to this being something that occurs in the sky above the earth. The positions of the sun, moon and stars are described in relation to the figures that are pictured, this does occur in the sky from time to time,there is no evidence that it occurs at the place of God's throne.

Also what is pictured is not historically correct, nor is it logical as a future event involving the personalities described. The male child who rules with a rod of iron is Jesus, and there is no evidence that Satan(the Dragon) stood before Mary or Israel(who birthed Jesus) waiting to devour Jesus(the Child). And Jesus was not caught up to God and to heaven right after He was born. And there is no evidence of Satan throwing stars to the ground in the past before attempting to devour Jesus.

This is not an event that occurred in the past, and is not an event that will occur at the place of God's throne in the future, it does not make sense in either context.

But it does make sense as a sign that occurs in the sky.

It is clear from scripture that God named the stars, and as He named the stars He would also have named the constellations (star groupings, some of which are mentioned in scripture.). The source likely to be closest to the original names or pictures would come from Israel, ancient Israel, the old Hebrew Mazzaroth, not the current version, not Kabballah types.

And this is not authoritative, this is theoretical, we have no absolutely authoritative source for interpreting signs in the sky. In fact most of our discussions on this site regarding prophecy are theoretical, only when God fulfills prophecy or makes the meaning completely clear will any interpretation be authoritative. In the mean time we discuss and seek the Lord and attempt to understand.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:02 pm

1whowaits wrote:Also what is pictured is not historically correct, nor is it logical as a future event involving the personalities described. The male child who rules with a rod of iron is Jesus, and there is no evidence that Satan(the Dragon) stood before Mary or Israel(who birthed Jesus) waiting to devour Jesus(the Child). And Jesus was not caught up to God and to heaven right after He was born. And there is no evidence of Satan throwing stars to the ground in the past before attempting to devour Jesus.This is not an event that occurred in the past, and is not an event that will occur at the place of God's throne in the future, it does not make sense in either context.


Regarding the above words, can't agree on that 1WW.

Here's why....you may not agree of course, but I do think there are historic parts to this sign......

vs 1 Eve is represented by the woman

vs 2 Eve's offspring Israel travails in labor with their PROMISED seed.

vs 3 Satan (the Loser).......notice he has not received any damage to one of his heads YET.

vs 4 The fallen angels who left their habitation in an attempt by Satan (the Loser) to pollute the PROMISED seed of Eve.
And pictured here is the Loser's attempt to destroy Christ through king Herod.

vs 5 The PROMISED seed comes, CONFIRMS.....THE.....PROMISE, bruises the Loser's head and returns to His Father and His throne.


We have discussed the word caught up (suddenly ascend or caught up) before...there is room for either idea on that really.

So, to say these First parts of the chapter are not historic events being portrayed in the vision is an error I believe that you are making.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:28 pm

ST, when was Eve clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and having a crown of stars while she was pregnant? For that matter, when was Israel that way, when was Mary that way? Was Satan, pictured with 7 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns (a portrayal of Satan in the future, not the past) standing before Eve/Mary/Israel waiting to devour Jesus? Was Jesus taken up to heaven as a child? When was Eve/Mary/Israel taken into the wilderness for 1,260 days?

To me, this passage is read as a single event, not multiple events over time. If read as a single event or 2 consecutive signs in heaven, it does not follow historically. If one pulls the sign apart and spreads it out over time then one could make some historic parallels, but it does not appear to read that way.

Of course, just my limited opinion, just trying to make sense of a difficult passage.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:33 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, when was Eve clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and having a crown of stars while she was pregnant? For that matter, when was Israel that way, when was Mary that way? Was Satan, pictured with 7 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns (a portrayal of Satan in the future, not the past) standing before Eve/Mary/Israel waiting to devour Jesus? Was Jesus taken up to heaven as a child? When was Eve/Mary/Israel taken into the wilderness for 1,260 days?<br abp="709"><br abp="710">To me, this passage is read as a single event, not multiple events over time. If read as a single event or 2 consecutive signs in heaven, it does not follow historically. If one pulls the sign apart and spreads it out over time then one could make some historic parallels, but it does not appear to read that way. <br abp="711"><br abp="712">Of course, just my limited opinion, just trying to make sense of a difficult passage.

will comment on these later ...got to go to sleep :clock:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Exit40 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:51 am

shorttribber wrote:Wow, that was really good 1WW...praise God for the blessings of wisdom and understanding He has provided you with on this subject.


Agreed. Well spoken words of wisdom.

God Bless

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And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:50 am

1whowaits wrote:ST, when was Eve clothed with the sun

When she was first created and the righteousness of God (clothed with splendor and majesty. He wraps himself in light as with a garment) as her clothing.
1whowaits wrote:when was Eve clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet

When the moon was not a Terror or Stabilizing Power OVER Her, it's under her feet...the Moon, under God's ultimate power of course, controls the seas, the winds the weather etc. The Moon is also a Lesser Light...She/ EVE/ is seen as having the Lesser Light Under Her Feet ( she is Shown Clothed with that Greatest and Glorious Light of God). She had not yet been Deceived...and the Moon had not Any Effect on Her OR Her Living SEED.
Therefore, the moon Is at That Place in the Vision.
1whowaits wrote:when was Eve clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and having a crown of stars while she was pregnant?

She has the Living Seed IN her(pregnant) by the Promise to Abraham the Seed would eventually come as the LIVING SEED Of the tribe of Judah, the Living SEED then born among the Dead 12 Tribes. She is Crowned with the Living 12 Tribes, Because She is the Mother of ALL Living SEED. All by Faith are Made Alive in Christ, HER, EVE'S, LIVING SEED
1whowaits wrote:For that matter, when was Israel that way, when was Mary that way?

When She, BY FATH Believed God......Like Mary Did....and Like Abraham Did, and Like Any Other Faithful Soul in Israel did.
1whowaits wrote: Was Satan, pictured with 7 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns (a portrayal of Satan in the future, not the past) standing before Eve/Mary/Israel waiting to devour Jesus?

Sure, in other manners such as the beasts described in Daniel that have tried to destroy the SEED of the Woman from the beginning.
and in this part of my above explanation...
vs 4 The fallen angels who left their habitation in an attempt by Satan (the Loser) to pollute the PROMISED seed of Eve.
And pictured here is the Loser's attempt to destroy Christ through king Herod.
1whowaits wrote: Was Jesus taken up to heaven as a child?

No, not as a child of course....these representations and verses are covering plenty of time at this portion of the chapter....I have said the following...
vs 5 The PROMISED seed comes, CONFIRMS.....THE PROMISE (Abrahamic SEED Promise), bruises the Loser's head and returns to His Father and His throne.
1whowaits wrote:When was Eve/Mary/Israel taken into the wilderness for 1,260 days?

vs 6 Eve's offspring Israel (Faithful LIVING SEED) flees to safety during the three and a half year siege by Titus in 70 ad.


1whowaits wrote:To me, this passage is read as a single event, not multiple events over time.

I agree that you do read it that way, It's just that I disagree that it should be read and understood that way.
1whowaits wrote: If read as a single event or 2 consecutive signs in heaven, it does not follow historically.

Well then, saying with all respect to you, I recommend that you do not read it as you do.
1whowaits wrote: If one pulls the sign apart and spreads it out over time then one could make some historic parallels, but it does not appear to read that way.

I do not think I'm pulling it apart, I think it has a very orderly and reasonable read as I've explained it.

I will add more later....

blessings 1WW
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:53 pm

Hi ST,
Your posts and responses are very impressive!
I am learning a lot about this SIGN as Ive been reading through.... you've come up with so many translation of scriptures that is making a lot of sense to me..... I'm starting to feel more convinced of this SIGN, but of course I'm cautious....we shall see.... if it true, the end of the Great Tribulation would be on March 6, 2021...lol.. lets hope we survive it, then the Obvious, most amazing, awesome SIGN of all time..... :banana:
In Christ Always,
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:26 pm

ST, i would disagree with your above statements.

This passage gives us enough information to identify personalities, but the actions of these personalities appear to be off kilter as it were. The woman, initially is difficult to identify until she is taken into the wilderness and protected for 1,260 days. This did not occur with Eve but does appear to occur with Israel in the future, a future event is being described consistent with the 1,260 days of the GT. Did Israel cry out in pain when she was pregnant with Jesus? So Israel delivers Jesus and then 2,000 later flees into the wilderness to escape Satan while he was standing in front of her the whole time? Is Satan just really slow?

The male Child is identified as Jesus, who rules with an iron scepter, but the child is 'snatched' up to God after He is born, so as to avoid being devoured by Satan, is that really characteristic of Jesus? Did Jesus go to heaven as a child to escape the clutches of Satan? Could Satan devour Jesus?

The dragon can be identified as Satan, but he is pictured with 10 horns, the 10 horns being the 10 kings receiving authority for 1 hour which they give to the AC during the GT. So where were the 10 kings associated with the AC who are on Satan's head when he is attempting to devour Jesus?

In this passage the information that identifies the personalities is consistent with other scripture, what they are described as doing, their actions, are not consistent with other scripture.

These inconsistencies beg the question, why are they there? If personalities appear to be identified and they do things not completely consistent with what they have done in the past, are the personalities themselves being described or is it something else that is representative of the personalities?
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:56 pm

As far as signs go, a sign is not a 'sign' until God says it is a 'Sign'. The stars and planets may be in certain alignments that appear unusual, but until God indicates that the alignment is significant, it is not. The alignment of Rev 12 while unusual does occur repeatedly, so it might take the occurrence of something unique to confirm that the sign has indeed been fulfilled.

From my limited observation of star charts, sign 1 and 2 of Rev 12 appear to occur in the latter part of 2018 through Jan of 2019, except for one significant part, the stars being cast down to the earth. The alignment of stars and planets repeats, it is cyclic, (the woman with the child repeats every 3 to 4 years), but asteroids/comets hitting the earth are not cyclic, they are unique. A unique event could be what God uses to declare an alignment a 'sign'. And a unique event is described in Rev that does appear to occur prior to the GT. The first 3 trumpets appear to describe 3 impacts of objects on the earth causing major devastation, and the sign of Rev 12 also makes an association with the number 3 and impacts on the earth. The Rev 12 sign could have some association with the first 3 trumpets of Rev.

Imo, if there are no impacts on the earth it is unlikely that the Rev 12 sign has occurred, even if everything else lines up. But if there are impacts on the earth at or prior to the time of such an alignment, then we will know God has fulfilled the sign of Rev 12, and we will know what time approaches.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:37 pm

1whowaits wrote:The male Child is identified as Jesus, who rules with an iron scepter, but the child is 'snatched' up to God after He is born, so as to avoid being devoured by Satan, is that really characteristic of Jesus? Did Jesus go to heaven as a child to escape the clutches of Satan?

Again... I have answered this 1WW....in this way...
shorttribber wrote:No, not as a child of course....these representations and verses are covering plenty of time at this portion of the chapter....I have said the following...vs 5 The PROMISED seed comes, CONFIRMS.....THE PROMISE (Abrahamic SEED Promise), bruises the Loser's head and returns to His Father and His throne.


Let me ask you a question.....Was Jesus to Rule with a Rode of Iron as a Child? That's similar to what you are asking me 1WW.

Because the text says....
and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

But the text also says....
she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
Was Jesus to rule the nations as a Child 1WW?

I'm still my Mothers Child 1WW, even though i'm nearing 60 years old.
Jesus was still Mary's child...even though he was a grown man during, and after his ministry.

Hope you can see my point on this part that you keep mentioning. It is not a point of difficulty in how I'm interpreting these verses.


Will answer more on other points tomorrow.

Blessings to ya
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:46 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Hi ST,
Your posts and responses are very impressive!
I am learning a lot about this SIGN as Ive been reading through.... you've come up with so many translation of scriptures that is making a lot of sense to me..... I'm starting to feel more convinced of this SIGN, but of course I'm cautious....we shall see.... if it true, the end of the Great Tribulation would be on March 6, 2021...lol.. lets hope we survive it, then the Obvious, most amazing, awesome SIGN of all time..... :banana:


Thank you Woody, will be adding more.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:48 pm

1whowaits wrote:The male Child is identified as Jesus, who rules with an iron scepter, but the child is 'snatched' up to God after He is born, so as to avoid being devoured by Satan, is that really characteristic of Jesus?

Just want to point out one thing too 1WW. Where in the text does it say anything akin to what you have written above that I have highlighted?

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There is no such thing in the text that you have suggested 1WW.

As I said, just wanted to point that out, that could be how you are reading it, but not what it actually says.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:16 pm

ST, the 2nd sign is pictured as one period of time not multiple events over time, and there is more to the sign than what you outlined- 'The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to His throne.'

The passage states that the child 'will rule', referring to a future period not addressed here, the passage is not stating that the child is ruling at the time He is 'snatched up.'

The straightforward reading of the passage is that Satan stands before the woman as she is in labor, waiting to devour her child (who is Jesus who will rule with an iron scepter), she delivers the child who is then 'snatched up' to God. Using 'snatched up' would imply that the child was immediately taken up to avoid the peril of being devoured.

Was Jesus ever snatched up? Did Jesus need to flee from Satan? Would God have allowed Satan to be anywhere near the infant Jesus? Could Satan ever devour Jesus as a child or man (I lay down my life, no one takes it from me....into your hands i commend my Spirit)? This sign does not make sense as what occurred with Jesus in the past or the future.

Also the woman, Israel, cries out as she is about to give birth to Jesus. Did Israel know Jesus even existed prior to or at the time of His birth and childhood?

Again this does not make sense historically, this did not happen the way it is pictured (sometimes called a clue). Something else is being described. This is a future sign in heaven, describing certain individuals moving in ways not completely consistent with past events. IMO, something else that represents the individuals is 'moving'.

And you are pushing 60 years old? Oh, my, word! Wait, i am not that far from that age either.... now i am depressed.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:44 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, the 2nd sign is pictured as one period of time not multiple events over time

I realize that is what you think....I still believe it reads very naturally as something occurring over a great span of time.
1whowaits wrote:'The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth that he might devour her child the moment it was born.

Yes, but the stars were thrown to the earth by the dragon before that (See Gen 6)....as an attempt of the dragon to destroy the Seed of the woman before she could give birth to the Promised Seed.
1whowaits wrote: She gave birth to a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to His throne.'

The Speedy Return to the Throne of God is also a reference , I Believe, to the Short timespan of Christ's Earthly Life.
You disagree of course...but it is a reasonable opinion regarding the "Swift" Return to His Father and Throne.
1whowaits wrote:The passage states that the child 'will rule', referring to a future period not addressed here, the passage is not stating that the child is ruling at the time He is 'snatched up.'

I didn't say He was ruling when He "Suddenly" returned to The Father......He Shall Rule all nations...but ALL things are Not put under His Feet YET.
We do not disagree on that it seems.
I said what I said because the text simply said that the CHILD was to Rule. Her Child, Mary's Child was to rule. And Being STILL Her Child, full age or Not, was Speedily Taken to His Throne...that's all.
1whowaits wrote:The straightforward reading of the passage is that Satan stands before the woman as she is in labor, waiting to devour her child (who is Jesus who will rule with an iron scepter), she delivers the child who is then 'snatched up' to God. Using 'snatched up' would imply that the child was immediately taken up to avoid the peril of being devoured.

I have already addressed this above....you may think the reading implies something that it simply does not imply...that's just how you read it.
I believe the straight forward reading implies something else...and that's really all there is to that.
1whowaits wrote:Was Jesus ever snatched up?
Not in the sense that you think, as I said, He Returned SUDDENLY, and Swiftly back to His Throne after a very short "Visitation".
Remember, you could put this in perspective you know, 33 years to an Eternal God is a Very Short Visitation!
1whowaits wrote:Did Jesus need to flee from Satan?

No, does the text say anything of the sort?
1whowaits wrote:Would God have allowed Satan to be anywhere near the infant Jesus?

I don't know, we are not told one way or the other if God would or wouldn't. But we know Herod, as a vessel of satan's work, did try.
1whowaits wrote:Could Satan ever devour Jesus as a child or man (I lay down my life, no one takes it from me....into your hands i commend my Spirit)?

Of course not, does that mean also that he could not have tried? I think scripture proves that he did try unsuccessfully.

1whowaits wrote:Also the woman, Israel, cries out as she is about to give birth to Jesus. Did Israel know Jesus even existed prior to or at the time of His birth and childhood?

Need to address this later.
1whowaits wrote:Again this does not make sense historically, this did not happen the way it is pictured (sometimes called a clue).

To you, it makes no sense historically, there are many historically that would disagree with that opinion.
1whowaits wrote: Something else is being described. This is a future sign in heaven, describing certain individuals moving in ways not completely consistent with past events.

Probably won't be long before we know either way....I really think we will know very soon!
1whowaits wrote:And you are pushing 60 years old? Oh, my, word! Wait, i am not that far from that age either.... now i am depressed.

:banana: We're only about 60 going on Eternity then ("Suddenly", I feel very young)! :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:30 am

1whowaits wrote:Mark, the evidence from Rev 12 would point to this being something that occurs in the sky above the earth. The positions of the sun, moon and stars are described in relation to the figures that are pictured, this does occur in the sky from time to time,there is no evidence that it occurs at the place of God's throne.


Hi 1whowaits,

What is the evidence from that chapter that this is celestial objects - sun moon stars - rather than visions of people and beings?

Also what is pictured is not historically correct, nor is it logical as a future event involving the personalities described. The male child who rules with a rod of iron is Jesus, and there is no evidence that Satan(the Dragon) stood before Mary or Israel(who birthed Jesus) waiting to devour Jesus(the Child). And Jesus was not caught up to God and to heaven right after He was born. And there is no evidence of Satan throwing stars to the ground in the past before attempting to devour Jesus.


Herod tried to kill Jesus right away. Maybe there was a little more to it than that. But Jesus was taken up to heaven in a blink of an eye in eternity's time.

There is the evidence of the vision. It depends on how you look at it. You are saying that you don't know when it happened so it didn't. Yet. I'm saying that if the vision declares it as something done, then maybe it's been done, even if I didn't see it.

This is not an event that occurred in the past, and is not an event that will occur at the place of God's throne in the future, it does not make sense in either context.

But it does make sense as a sign that occurs in the sky.


So we each make our own sense out of it. It makes sense to me as a vision, just like the candlesticks. Except that with the candlesticks, we're told what the symbols refer to.

Are there places that tell us who these beings are, the dragon, for instance? If this is describing a star pattern, than which star?

If it's describing a being, then which being?

That one I can answer from Scripture. The dragon is the beast. There's a whole study deep into that one.

It is clear from scripture that God named the stars, and as He named the stars He would also have named the constellations (star groupings, some of which are mentioned in scripture.). The source likely to be closest to the original names or pictures would come from Israel, ancient Israel, the old Hebrew Mazzaroth, not the current version, not Kabballah types.


OK . . . my only reply would be contained in your next comment.

And this is not authoritative, this is theoretical, we have no absolutely authoritative source for interpreting signs in the sky. In fact most of our discussions on this site regarding prophecy are theoretical, only when God fulfills prophecy or makes the meaning completely clear will any interpretation be authoritative. In the mean time we discuss and seek the Lord and attempt to understand.


We have something completely authoritative, I like that.

Of course, Herb's original intent for the site was to share and discuss the possibility that prophecy of the 70th week was being fulfilled in Javier Solana, a potential for the AC. The discussion was centered around historical acts as they were occurring, and whether they fit the prophetic Scriptures. Of course, we know that this theory did not work out, though it was an extremely interesting time!

Reaching ahead to pin down what might happen, and when, can be a very tricky business, with a longstanding track record of failure for so many. Herb's take was to simply look at the facts as they happened, to see if they fulfilled the Word. That's what drew me initially to the site.

We certainly want to study the Scriptures, to try to understand as best as we can what they are speaking to us. I personally believe in using Scripture to interpret Scripture. That way I can stay with what is authoritative.

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:25 pm

Of course, Herb's original intent for the site was to share and discuss the possibility that prophecy of the 70th week was being fulfilled in Javier Solana, a potential for the AC. The discussion was centered around historical acts as they were occurring, and whether they fit the prophetic Scriptures. Of course, we know that this theory did not work out, though it was an extremely interesting time!

Reaching ahead to pin down what might happen, and when, can be a very tricky business, with a longstanding track record of failure for so many. Herb's take was to simply look at the facts as they happened, to see if they fulfilled the Word. That's what drew me initially to the site.


It was awfully interesting theory of Solana, I have learned so much from this site ever since. Herb was such a wonderful guy also! I miss talking to him!!

I think this SIGN could be the coming Great Tribulation which is more convincing than the Solana theory IMO.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby mark s on Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:08 pm

Hi Woody,

It's a very interesting thing, I think I've neglected to say that. And we don't have long to wait!

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. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:23 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Woody,

It's a very interesting thing, I think I've neglected to say that. And we don't have long to wait!

:grin:

:a3:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:42 pm

I'm kind of curious, Where is Brett?
:dunno:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:53 pm

Mark, i would agree we need to use scripture to interpret scripture, scripture is our anchor, our bedrock. Many of the prophecies in scripture can be interpreted by other scriptures, but for some God has chosen to conceal the meanings-' It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, to search out a matter the glory of kings' Pr 25. God chooses to make some of His prophecies difficult to understand at one point, presumably to reveal the meaning at a later point, after it has been searched out.

This is implied in Dan 12 -'Go your way Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end...none of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.'

So in our search to understand scriptures, can we use history books? Can we use science Books? Can we use Astronomy Books? The Bible is not a history book but where it refer to history, it is accurate. The Bible is not a science book, but where it touches science it is accurate. he Bible is not an astronomy book, but when it refers to the sun, moon and stars and their movements, it is accurate.

Imo, Rev 12 is referring to the movement of the sun, moon and planets among the backdrop of the stars and constellations, when it clearly describes a sign in heaven involving the sun, moon and stars. If the information regarding the movement of the sun, moon and stars is not contained in scripture, should we just ignore it or try to shoe-horn another meaning into it?
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:07 pm

Yes, where is Brett? i originally got into this discussion because there seemed to be some consternation and confusion about this sign occurring on Sept 23.

Brett, if you are out there, this is not the sign of Rev 12, the originator admitted that he did not really understand the 2 signs fully anyway, if one is to interpret the sign, one should be able to account for the entire sign, both parts.

The sign that does occur depicts God with Israel, as the host of heaven looks on.

Myself, i wouldn't be too concerned with a sign when much more is occurring on the earth. It has been about 70 years since Israel became a nation in 1948, and Zech 1 refers to God's anger with Israel ending and turning to the gentile nations in the form of 4 'craftsmen' (horsemen?).

It has also been 50 years since Israel retook all of Jerusalem and the temple mount in 1967, since then Israel can be seen as being fully in the land. And according to the OT, when Israel was fully in the land the counting down for the Year of Jubilee could commence (in the OT there appears to have been a 7 year delay in counting in order for the land to be settled and planted). And Isa 61 and 63 do appear to associate the Year of Jubilee, the year of God's favor, with the day of vengeance, armageddon.

As we now approach the High Holy Days for Israel, the time may be right for God to begin to bring Israel back to Himself. It may be better to look at the times and not the 'signs'.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:47 pm

I'm here Guys. I am very busy atm and are too tired to really add much.

I've had little new insight.......I'm just faced with the conclusion that EITHER WAY - there's no point wasting time atm. So as the day is approaching soon, I am keeping busy completing my work and making sure I am ready. Just watching the news lately is showing me that War is coming. I heard Nikki Haley the other day saying the UN has exhausted all options in regards to North Korea. Nikki Haley is a globalist and so is McMaster's. Both have been prominent on the news lately. The globalists have taken over the Trump administration, esp with Steve Bannon gone, amongst others. We basically have a "Neo-con globalist" type Administration, ready for a war. So its another SIGN telling me that WW3 is coming soon. I think they want to attack North Korea.....but they're not ready yet. The 1st Horseman of the Apocalypse - the 1st Seal - is the AC being crowned and riding out to conquer. I don't think the AC will come from America, I think its another area of the world......but the fact America is probably going to do something militarily soon in North Korea that should stir up the world, which itself should be enough imho to trigger the Anti-Christ into rising soon...... I honestly feel like we are coming to Daniels 70th Week soon.....next year? The year after?

So in short this Sign in the heavens has been something to alert me to the limited amount of time we have left....So I've gleaned enough from this sign at this point. I'm not ready for WW3 - I need to get myself ready for WW3 - so I need to spend my time getting ready. Once I feel I have got my house in order.....then I will devote more time to researching these matters more. I'm expecting I won't complete my software project until the end of the year. So I won't be digging deeper until at least the end of the year......unless something really obvious reveals itself earlier.

My number 1 priority is to get ready. I really really really don't want to be caught off guard or wrong footed and find myself in trouble. What good is all this fore-knowledge if we don't heed it and make ourselves ready?

God Bless.

.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby DaveG on Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:56 am

With the fall feasts approaching, I believe this sign is about the coming tribulation and for us to look up as our redemption is near. We know that the second coming will fulfill the fall feasts. When the spring feasts were fulfilled, Yeshua planted the seed of the church, the holy spirit, and our salvation through him. The second coming will be the time for his harvest and there are no coincidences that this sign is appearing during the time of the fall feasts.

I believe WWIII is on our doorstep and God is calling for us to repent. The eclipse, the hurricanes, the rumors of war and now this sign in the heavens. The time is near. IMO, out of this next great war will arise the beast system, the one world government, and the anti-christ. Any world war with the technology and brutality of the weapons of today's age will bring the world to it's knees, and while the world should be repenting, and crying out to God for salvation, it will turn to the one world system and the beast for peace and safety. We know the rest from there......


:armor:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:52 am

1whowaits wrote:<snip>

And Isa 61 and 63 do appear to associate the Year of Jubilee, the year of God's favor, with the day of vengeance, armageddon.

<snip>


After re-reading the above two chapters, IMHO they both have similarities with Revelation12 and in many senses , covering the same prophetic event(s).

Shalom.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:05 am

.
Just watched the Trump UN speech. War with North Korea is coming and Trump also put China and Russia on notice by implying the "South China sea" and "Ukraine" are also on the radar (being watched). I can see what's coming......USA in a World War with Russia & China.....that's what's coming imho. Trump won't back down, and Putin and China aren't ones who like to back down either. The whole reason North Korea exists at all is because of China and Russia........that's why its still in existence today.....these 2 nations still support North Korea, despite saying they don't.

Trump said he's gonna give the UN a chance to see what it can do with North Korea.......after that if its not solved then its War. I think next year could be a real nasty year people. There's been much talk of war, rumors etc......hot spots around the world for a long time now......the time is coming when the talking will stop and conflict will start.

Note in such a war China will use its power to stop global trade through its own waters. That's why China has been building islands, it wants to have control over all trade through the South China Sea, giving it greater leverage. This is where prices of everything will be affected......shortages. I also expect China will try to invade my own country, Australia....

.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby ToledoDebbie on Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:41 am

Brett, I hope that you are wrong about a major war coming. I really don't know how much of what Trump says is a calculated attempt to make the nations that are causing trouble in the world "think" that he will act and act aggressively so they will reconsider some of their threatening behavior? But, I was watching Hannity on Fox last night and they were discussing some secret weapon that we have developed that General Mattis is preparing for use, if things continue to escalate in NK. Trump does not want war any more than you and I do, but, unlike us he has the responsibility and obligation to act if our security is truly threatened. With everything that is happening, all of the hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, it does feel that prophesy is occurring before our eyes. :eek:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:39 am

World War III during the Great Tribulation?
That would make it hard to witness with bombs blasting everywhere... :armor:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:29 pm

Updated 22/09/2017

Some more things I have gleaned.

(1) Trump is a realist and willing to work with the globalists. After watching other trump speeches at the UN, its clear he is going to team up with the United Nations and strengthen the institution.
(2) So Trump is now a GLOBALIST - Pro United Nations. Trump is now helping the United Nations rise to power. When he leaves office the UN will be a much stronger and efficient BEAST.
(3) Trump is not bound by moral convictions, for example Trump does not know global government is in the bible and severely EVIL, that the Beast Empire will be EVIL, that an Anti-Christ is going to rule the planet from such institutions. Trump has purely been against the United Nations because its ineffective and has been hurting America. If that changes he will love the United Nations.....which is now what seems to be happening.

Basically Trump just wants to get things done, achieve outcomes, get results, to prove himself to the world. He doesn't even know about bible prophecy. He doesn't know that he should not be helping the United Nations because of what the bible says.....Trump is perfectly willing to work with the United Nations,with globalists and even becoming a globalist himself if it means getting the job done and proving himself.

Trump’s UN speech resonating with Iran, North Korea: John Bolton
https://youtu.be/qzG8HF6HidQ

President Trump Speaks at United Nations Reform Meeting 9/18/17
https://youtu.be/lnA86k_R2b4?t=3m44s

President Trump Speaks at UN Luncheon with World Leaders 9/19/17
https://youtu.be/Jr8IfYB3e3Y?t=5m18s

.
Last edited by brett on Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:25 pm, edited 8 times in total.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:37 pm

.
And another thing. There may be a little more time than I first thought.

There needs to be 10 Kings in place prior to the rise of the Anti-Christ. Because the Anti-Christ will subdue 3 of the 10 Kings.

Daniel 7:24

And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


I keep thinking of Trump when I read this, but I honestly do not think Trump is or can be the AC. There also is no clear 10 King Leadership at present. So perhaps more time will be needed yet to establish these 10 Kings and then after that the Anti-Christ will rise.........With this in mind its perfectly possible that a war with North Korea may not be WW3....it may be like a "Gulf War".....or perhaps China will stop North Korea and prevent a war?????......so as you can see its still unclear ..... but one thing is certain - 10 Kings are needed to be established PRIOR to the rise of the Anti-Christ. I don't see 10 Kings set apart at this time who are obvious.... so that may be a telling sign that its still a little further ahead.......let's hope so. However the current secretary general of the UN, under Trumps pressuring is speedily reforming the United Nations. One possible reform could be to create a Security Council with 10 permanent members rather than the current 5 permanent members and 10 temporary. Another more certain reform agenda is to make the secretary general terms 7 years long - YES 7 years. So perhaps Trump will play the role of seeing the United Nations reformed and improved to the place it can then become the BEAST, with 10 kings and with 7 year terms. Then we'd certainly see the stage set for the AC to rise...


There also needs to be a 3rd Temple in place.....imho. So here are a few more things that need to be in place that I had forgotten.....although these may not take long to be put in place.

.
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"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:39 am

There also needs to be a 3rd Temple in place.....imho. So here are a few more things that need to be in place that I had forgotten.....although these may not take long to be put in place.


Where in the Bible does it say a third temple is needed?
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:01 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Where in the Bible does it say a third temple is needed?


This is a matter up for debate. You are free to believe there is no need for a 3rd temple, however I believe there is need for a 3rd temple to be rebuilt, for the Anti-Christ. I'm not going to quote scripture because that would lead to a debate and into me spending more time on posting than I want.......the need for a 3rd temple is my opinion.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:37 pm

Paul describes the AC setting Himself up in God's Temple proclaiming himself to be god. Rev 11 describes the Temple of God that can be measured, has an altar and a court and worshipers. Dan 8 refers to the sanctuary being brought low and the daily sacrifice being taken away. Dan 9 refers to sacrifice and offering being stopped in association with a defilement. Dan 11 also describes the abolition of the daily sacrifice and desecration of the temple in association with the time of the end.

Jesus also refers to the abomination in the Holy Place as is described in Daniel. In Zech 1 God states that He will return to Jerusalem with mercy and there His house will be rebuilt, in the context of Israel being divided by 4 nations/nation groups and the unleashing of what appears to be the 4 horsemen.

The evidence from scripture would suggest that the Temple of God will be rebuilt, and as 2 have preceded it....
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:43 pm

.
The main thing I've learnt the last 24-48 hours is that Trump is effectively a GLOBALIST, he's going to work with the United Nations, even promote & strengthen it. And it appears to me that the United Nations leadership has decided to work with Trump, because he's going to help them anyway.

So Trumps going to end up building a stronger United Nations.......

This kinda makes me see Trumps presidency now as more of a time for the BEAST (United Nations) to build itself up and get itself ready for the Anti-Christ. I'm starting to think the Anti-Christ will come a little later down the track now.......because we've got Trump befriending the UN and pushing the UN reforms agenda and we have the Daniel 7:24 scripture making it clear 10 Kings are needed prior to the Anti-Christs rise. So I'm now seeing that more still needs to be done to get the stage ready for the AC. But perhaps these things will only take a short amount of time? So WW3 MAY still be on the immediate agenda, such a war could last years, time during which the stage could be set. But hopefully WW3 is not yet......after seeing china's recent cooperation (Chinese central bank shutting down its business with North Korea) I'm now seeing the North Korean crisis could be more like a "Gulf War", or even avoided all together.

In many ways Trump to me looks like the Anti-Christ.....but I still don't think its possible for him to be the Anti-Christ, he is the king of Babylon (harlot) and is simply being used and abused by the Beast. The 10 Kings along with the Anti-Christ destroy Babylon. I can't see Trump ever destroying his own country America (Babylon).

But people its time to face the facts, Trump is helping build the BEASTS GLOBAL EMPIRE.....

We've all been thinking that North Korea is bad lately - from watching the news - I know I have been......mainly because of the western propaganda against North Korea the last few decades and because of what Trump has been saying lately. From the perspective of comparing freedoms in societies, yes North Korean society is less free, they enslave their people, but from the perspective of bible prophecy we know that ultimately the Beast Empire will be the worst empire the world has ever seen. At least North Korea's dictatorship is limited to a single country, whereas the Beast empire will be global, no where to flee. So there is a worse agenda at play here and without realising it we are being fed propaganda too. I'm seeing the same kind of propaganda now that we saw under Bush. Trump is actually pumping out propaganda that supports Global Government, the need for the global community to remove a dangerous rogue regime. Bush used this same argument to invade Iraq because of the danger of WMD's. How quickly we forget.....the truth is that this North Korean issue is not really about nuclear weapons, or the lack of freedom in North Korea's society, its about the United Nations obtaining total dominance worldwide. The end goal is to have all nations in full submission to the United Nations. So its actually the Beast Empire that's the real EVIL, not North Korea. Trump is actually pushing the same global government agenda still......Trump is moving in the same direction as all previous presidents. It doesn't matter who is in power - America is always used to champion the global government agenda one way or the other.

So brothers and sisters, do not be fooled by Trump .... he's going to end up serving the same agenda as all presidents have before him .... although the difference here imho is that Trump is far more capable and skilled than previous presidents.

Looks like I have nearly forgotten the Rev 12 sign ...... I have only done so because I have not been able to understand its meaning ..... and now there is more going on in terms of Trumps embrace of the United Nations.

.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:08 pm

In my part of the world, the 23rd has already been over for around 10 hours, so I had better wait until those who live in the USA have had a chance to caught up with this fact and realise that another sure thing for the Second advent has failed to materialise. Oh what a let down. Even for those who where having a bet each way on the outcome.

:oops: :mrgreen: :lol: :boink: :closed: :doh:
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Shelby on Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:44 pm

I just read that Jupiter doesn't exit Virgo's womb until October.
The Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby brett on Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:51 pm

.
Guys let's not mock too quickly !
.
While I myself was paying less attention to the 23rd Sept sign this last 2 weeks - that is mainly because I couldn't figure out a clear meaning behind it anyway, so I pretty much hit a road block and decided to stop investigating it .... I also had a pastor I respect tell me its nonsense. So I put it on the shelf and started looking at other things - like Trump at the UN.......... BUT when (if) I hear something from someone in the future - that makes a lot more sense - then I would be willing to take it off the shelf again and look at it in hindsight ...... as it may confirm something. So I haven't completely abandoned it, I've just stopped thinking about it.

It seemed to have such a strong correlation to Rev 12 - maybe it still does - but I never found a clear answer as to what it meant - exactly what it signified. If I found a clear and logical meaning for what it signified then I would have kept researching it - but that never happened - so it did seem bit of a dead end to me. I would have expected that if God was intending it to be a sign then He would have at least told someone the correct understanding. So yeah I stopped wasting my time on it ....but regardless it could still mean something.....so for me its still on the shelf.....who knows ..... we may find out later it meant something. So let's not mock it too quickly....

For me - as stated in another post above - remembering the Daniel 7:24 scripture - has changed my thinking a little on how long we have left. Basically I was thinking this Rev 12 sign could have been signalling the imminent rise of the Anti-Christ, but the Daniel 7:24 scripture settled that matter for me......it makes it clear that first there will be 10 Kings in place and then the Anti-Christ will come after them and subdue 3 of them. So until I see 10 established (crowned) global leaders (probably in the United Nations) I'm not going to be fretting too much about the imminent rise of the Anti-Christ. Also I think I can better see Trump's role now, it appears he is going to be used to strengthen the United Nations and deal with the last remaining significant rogue nations opposing the United Nations (North Korea and maybe Iran). So I'm assuming that he will have a full presidential term to complete these tasks, then the stage would be set for the AC imho. So basically I'm thinking we still have time to prepare ...... which is good news to me. This North Korea matter may be a nasty war, but I am hoping now that its actually not WW3. I believe WW3 will start when the AC is crowned and comes on the scene - it will be his actions to conquer that will start WW3. Trump is not the AC imho, so I believe the AC must at least come after Trump - in terms of appearing on the world stage. But of course this is all my human reasoning.......who knows how quickly 10 kings could be crowned.......and who knows how quickly things could be set up......I'm assuming it would take "years" at least ...... but who knows really.....maybe it could all be completed by sometime next year still? But I tend to think now that we have a few years still until the Anti-Christ appears..... at least I hope so.

.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:30 am

Brett, Daniel 7 is in two parts. As yet we have not got to 7:12, let alone 13-14. In any case there is a 1,000 year gap that has to be inserted into the chapter between verse 18 and 19. So no, we do not have a lot to be worry about at present concerning the anti-Christ in our near future.

Remember, I did say that this "sign" in the sky, very early on in this thread, was a load of horse droppings and I have not changed my mind.
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Re: Call to GET READY - New sign in Heavens !

Postby shorttribber on Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:02 am

Jay Ross wrote:Remember, I did say that this "sign" in the sky, very early on in this thread, was a load of horse droppings and I have not changed my mind.


Just in case it is Still something that God has actually given as a "sign" that may as yet be not Fully Understood, you may be careful about how you describe it in such terms.
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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