WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Discussion not limited to prophecy.

WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby El Gallo on Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:28 pm

A nearly impregnable conservative evangelical prophetic school built up in the latter 20th Century. It consisted of some doctrines dating back to the 19th Century, like a pre-tribulation rapture. Other assumptions developed during the middle 20th Century political experience – such as assumptions that the Antichrist would be a European; Russia’s armies would be destroyed in the great battle described in Ezekiel 38; and the Chinese armies would battle European ones at the Battle of Armageddon. This catechism of evangelical eschatology was so normative that to disagree invited shunning. However, events in this century have opened minds.


Once heretical ideas like a Rapture occurring at the seventh trumpet as more scripturally sound than a pre-tribulation rapture are now at least allowed in polite company. Other new interpretations, such as that the Antichrist will be a Muslim; that the army of 200 million will be Muslim; and that the Ezekiel and Armageddon battles are synonymous have grown up – mostly due to applying real world facts to combat mere assumptions.


Still, virtually all prophecy only becomes clear after its fulfillment. Only time can tell. With that preamble, I will venture another “small-a” apostasy: there will not be an abomination that causes desolation (AOD) in a rebuilt Jewish Temple.


The matter of the AOD comes from prophecy in both the Old and New Testaments. Jesus’ prophecy is found in Mathew 24: 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” What did Daniel speak of? In his sweeping prediction of history until the end days, in Chapter 9 of his Book (NIV) Daniel states;

“26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One [Messiah] will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”


This interpretation first assumes Daniel was speaking of a Jewish temple, and second that an abomination there must mean the holiness and Jewish sacrifices in the temple have been affected; i.e., a desolation occurs. But there is reason to argue neither is necessarily true.


The Jewish Temple in Jerusalem was sacred because God would manifest there within the inner part called the “Holy of Holies,” behind a thick floor-to-ceiling curtain. When YHWH led the Israelites from Egypt to Mount Sinai about 1440 B.C., he manifested his presence via a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. (Ex. 13:21) But God decided to have a more intimate presence among the people. In Exodus 25:8 God tells Moses on Mount Sinai "Let them construct a sanctuary for Me, that I may dwell among them." This was the Tabernacle constructed to God’s precise instructions (found in Exodus).


But like Abraham in Genesis 22:2, 14, Moses prophetically saw that God would have his presence in a more permanent covenantal place: "You will bring them and plant them in the mountain (Zion, Jerusalem) of Your inheritance, The place, O Lord, which You have made for Your dwelling, The sanctuary, O Lord, which Your hands have established. " Exodus 15:17 After Joshua led to Israelites to conquer Canaan, the Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant (which was the center of the Holy of Holies) remained at Shiloh for over 300 years.

After the Philistines sacked Shiloh and held the Ark of the Covenant for a short while, the Israelites got it back and then King “David had brought up the ark of God from Kiriath-jearim to the place he had prepared for it, for he had pitched a tent for it in Jerusalem. " (2 Chronicles 1:4) "So David bought the threshing floor [of Ornan the Jebusite for 600 shekels of gold and] built there an altar to the Lord and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings." 2 Sam 24:25. David asked God for permission to construct a permanent house for the Lord at the site, but due to David’s sin God would only allow David’s son Solomon to do so. 2 Sam 7:1-17


The Tabernacle continued to function in Gibeon until about 953 B.C. Solomon ‘s Temple was finished, and the Ark was installed there. God was dwelling there among his chosen people. 2 Chronicles 5:5-6 Through tempestuous times the Temple survived until 586 BC, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed it and carried most of the Jewish people into the Babylonian Captivity. 2 Kings 25:9 It was while he was in this captivity that Daniel received a vision from God, and wrote it down.


As prophesied, the Captivity ended after 70 years and in 515 B.C. Zerubbabel built a second but much less grand Temple on the site of Solomon’s. Haggai 2:1-9 When the Roman mercenary Antiochus Epiphanes sacked Jerusalem and entered the Temple to offer a sow upon the altar, the Jews assumed this was the abomination Daniel spoke of, but it could not have been since Antiochus did not establish a covenant and certainly was not operating in the Biblical “end times.” The 61st “seven” ended when Jesus rode triumphantly into Jerusalem right before his crucifixion, and it is agreed in mainstream sources the 62nd, last “seven,” pertains to the Tribulation times before Messiah’s return. So there has to be another who declares an “end to sacrifice and offering” and sets up the AOD.


In 30 B.C. Herod the Great rebuilt the Temple, known as the Third Temple, which was the magnificent one Jesus knew. Matthew 24 relates that Jesus startled the disciples when he predicted that Temple would be destroyed, with not one stone left standing. But he startled the priests and scribes even more when they demanded a sign of his claims, and he prophesied a different temple “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will rebuild it. John 2:13-21. Only later did the disciples realize Jesus meant himself.


Thus Jesus declared the Temple building would be destroyed, yet he would be the everlasting temple. Why? Jesus told the disciples “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” Matthew 5:16 When he was sacrificed the old Levitical sacrificial system was ended; one sacrifice for all, Jew and Gentile, for all time. God emphasized this new thing at the moment Jesus died on the cross, when he ripped in two the massive Temple curtain separating the Ark and the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Temple. This symbolized the removal of the barrier between us and God. Mt. 27:15.


As Jesus prophesied the Temple building was utterly demolished in 70 A.D., when the Roman mercenaries (predominantly Turks, Syrians, and Assyrians) sacked Jerusalem after putting down a Jewish rebellion. (While Roman art portrayed the Temple’s giant Menorah being paraded in Rome, there is no evidence the Ark was ever taken; its fate remains a mystery.)


Some state Jesus fulfilled Daniel’s prophecy since he proclaimed an end to the Levitical system (an “end to sacrifice and offering”) and sets up the Temple’s destruction (AOD) . But Jesus did not declare a seven year covenant. It has to be someone else than Antiochus or Jesus. A reasonable reading is that it will be the one Daniel called “the ruler who will come.” This is the Antichrist. Even so, does he need a temple to commit the AOD? I do not think so.


Today most evangelicals believe there will be a Fourth Temple built before the Tribulation. That belief became all the stronger when a Jewish group called the “Temple Mount Faithful” re-created at great expense all the building materials and instruments (exactly in accordance with the models God gave Moses) for a new temple. The group has also trained and consecrated an Aaronic priesthood for the first time in nearly 2000 years. All they await is for man or God to give them back the Temple Mount, upon which the abominable Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosque reside.


Yet Jesus only predicted the end of Herod’s temple. He did not predict another would be built. In fact except for a couple of cryptic passages discussed below, the only other temple the Bible discusses is in Ezekiel 41 to 48, describing a temple which will exist in Jerusalem during the Messiah’s Millennial reign on earth. However it will be significantly different than the previous temples, and is not what the Temple Mount Faithful look to build (though perhaps they should).


Even if the Jews rebuilt a temple, it would not be a holy place which could be abominated, as God made it clear when he rent the Temple veil that Jesus had abolished the old system and was now in his person both God and the place of God’s indwelling. Again, Jesus declared he was the completion of the law and prophets, and the new temple Jn 2:13-21; Mt 5:16. The old way is gone. Acts 17 says “24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.” 1 Colossians 3 affirms” 16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 1 Peter 2 says: “4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."


So Paul and Peter confirm the temple and “spiritual house” as metaphors for Jesus and the church. There can be no building temple which is a “holy place” and where valid “sacrifice and offering” is conducted, such that prohibiting them would be an abomination.


This leads to the second critique in that the abomination must cause desolation. Both Antiochus’ desecration and the destruction of the Third Temple resulted because of war, yet those actions did not cause desolation. But certainly since Messiah Jesus is the temple and the holy place, an AOD would have to consist of Antichrist declaring Jesus false and outlawing Christian prayer and sacrifice. This is not unprecedented, since Muslim and communist rulers have already done it in the past. Clearly they cannot control what one does in the mind and spirit, but the point is one to come, a human, will outlaw Biblical belief and declare himself god. That is an abomination and will then lead to persecution and the desolation of the Great Tribulation


A third critique is that neither Daniel nor Jesus mentioned the abomination would have anything to do with the Temple. A site called http://www.tribwatch.com/corner.htm (no name given) illustrates:


“[Daniel (:27] according to the English version in the margin of my Hebrew interlinear, reads like this:

‘And in the middle of the week, he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner, desolating abominations, even until the end’(9:27).


“There you have it. The ‘abominations’ will be caused ‘on a corner’ (Hebrew word, KANAPH). On a corner of what? The text does not enlarge any further. We are left to figure it out. Why has God done this?


“Some English Bibles have translated ‘corner’ as an aspect of the Temple or altar. The NIV translators thought to use, ‘on a wing of the temple.’ That seems acceptable, but the translators of the King James Version were so unsure of the purpose in Daniel's use of ‘kanaph’ that they translated the word, ‘overspreading.’ Apparently, this mistaken translation is derived from "wing," although not the wing of a building, but the (overspreading) wings of birds.


“Other translators having the same bird-idea in mind thought to use, ‘on the wing of abominations shall come/be one who makes desolate’ (e.g. RSV, NASB, NKJV), but this rendition detracts from the true thrust of the text, to show desolating abominations applied to a section of something...not to the whole thing, but only to a portion. But how does one apply wickedness to only a portion of something, for example a Temple, without profaning the entirety?


Now a good argument against this position is that 2 Thessalonians says “3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” Further Revelation 11 says “I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.” Doesn’t his prove there will be a physical Temple? That may be. Yet, translating Hebrew or Greek is tricky.


These sentences could just as well be metaphorical relation to the body of Christ and him as the temple. http://www.tribwatch.com/corner.htm adds:


“When we turn to Revelation, we see that it is not the Temple building, but only the outer court, which is given to the Gentiles for trampling . . .


“I am not imagining things, for this verse tells me that the outer court alone will be given for trampling, while the building will not be given for trampling. How can enemy soldiers trample the outer court...and the entire city...while not trampling the building? Wouldn't the building be the greatest prize of all to the anti-Israeli invaders; wouldn't they abuse it far more than the mere patio? The only way that the invaders can avoid trampling the building is if it isn't going to be there.


“My Greek interlinear words it like this: ‘And the court outside of the temple cast outside,’ where both uses of ‘outside" are the same Greek word, ‘exothen" (# 1855). It sounds as though John is being asked to toss the outer court outside, but because this idea is difficult, Bible translations instead use ‘exclude" and ‘leave out.’ In the roughly 30 KJV uses of ‘leave,’ none but in this case do we find that the Greek word is ‘ekbale’ (Strong's # 1544).


“Ekbale is used in Revelation when the beast is CAST into the Lake of Fire. In other words, the term is not to be translated, ‘exclude,’ or ‘leave out,’ but as ‘throw/eject. Ekbale is also used for casting out demons and for casting money-changers from the Temple , , , ,
“How could John throw an outer court outside, and outside of what did was he to throw it? The Temple that John was seeing in this vision (90-95 AD) was not the one standing in the first-century, since it had been destroyed some 20 years prior; the Temple that he was seeing, therefore, was one of a Heavenly vision...where symbolism can predominate so that the tossing out of the outer court is not literal, but an indication to the reader of the court's release from God's umbrella of protection. The implication (i.e. the very purpose of this sentence) is that the building is not to be so released from God’s protection...and therefore not to be trampled.”

In sum, these two references are fleeting and are weak evidence that an actual temple will be rebuilt. Moreover, if there was to be a temple, but if it was, one would think Revelation would say much more about it.

Finally if one believes the time to be short, practically speaking there seems insufficient time or evidence that events will move in that direction. It also bears repeating that nothing about such a building would make it holy, since the Levitical system is extinct and Jesus has replaced it. There would be nothing to abominate by stopping sacrifice there. In fact it would be more likely that a Muslim ruler could enter a mosque such as Al Aqsa and declare himself god; that too would be an abomination against God, but not against the building. Any building would do. The point is that the Antichrist must call Jesus false, call himself a god, and outlaw Christianity. That is an abomination which leads to desolation.
Last edited by El Gallo on Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:59 pm

what a great post...the differences we share about Daniel 9:27 are beside the point, and we'll just disagree there.
But i'll tell ya, that's good stuff....Especially the last few paragraphs......real good stuff!

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:40 pm

Yes, great post El Gallo. I agree that no new temple will be built for the same reasons you gave. What I've believed for some time is that the "outer court" that will be given to the gentiles to trample is the believers' flesh, I.e., that many believers will be killed during the tribulation.

Rev 13:10
“If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.” This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.

As for the wing of the temple, I see that as being a portion or group of the Body of Christ that will bear the brunt of the persecution, which in my estimation could be the Jewish Christians in Israel along with other middle eastern believers, something which is already happening in some areas over there.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:09 pm

El Gallo wrote: In fact it would be more likely that a Muslim ruler could enter a mosque such as Al Aqsa and declare himself god; that too would be an abomination against God, but not against the building. Any building would do. The point is that the Antichrist must call Jesus false, call himself a god, and outlaw Christianity. That is an abomination which leads to desolation.


That's what I feel most likely will occur......this quote below is something from an earlier thread....where I said this....

"But when will we all SEE the Abomination (Al Aqsa Mosque) STANDING above where the holy of holies once was for WHAT it IS?
When the Loser is cast out of heaven(literally)Rev12 and possesses the antichrist (Loser Jr.) then he (Loser Jr.)may.....Have Cause to......Establish THAT Abomination as his holy of holies(Unholy of Unholies actually/Abomination).
And that may just happen IMO....and.....then.....IT.....WILL...........Be...SEEN...for what IT IS and THEN the readers.....WILL......understand.

For........written on it (Dome of the Rock)are these abominable words........"God has no son, God needs no son"........translations vary a little but carry near exact meaning.

Remember, Jesus said "When ye :shock: .....SEE..... :shock: The Abomination, Standing where it Ought Not"!
Let the READER Understand ....What IS WRITTEN...Here again is WHAT is WRITTEN..... On it....
:shock: "God has no son, God needs no son" :shock:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby slick on Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:34 am

BRAVO you nailed as far as I am concerned!!!

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!!! :armor:
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:41 am

These sentences could just as well be metaphorical relation to the body of Christ and him as the temple.


If this is true then I am just a tad curious how you would explain this passage:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.


How can the man of lawlessness take his seat in the body of Christ to display himself as God? This "man" seems diametrically opposed to Christ and thus could not be "seated" in Christ in any way whatsoever.

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Jericho on Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:43 am

El Gallo wrote:Even if the Jews rebuilt a temple, it would not be a holy place which could be abominated, as God made it clear when he rent the Temple veil that Jesus had abolished the old system and was now in his person both God and the place of God’s indwelling...

Matthew 5:16 When he was sacrificed the old Levitical sacrificial system was ended; one sacrifice for all, Jew and Gentile, for all time....

Even if the Jews rebuilt a temple, it would not be a holy place which could be abominated, as God made it clear when he rent the Temple veil that Jesus had abolished the old system and was now in his person both God and the place of God’s indwelling...

it also bears repeating that nothing about such a building would make it holy, since the Levitical system is extinct and Jesus has replaced it...


We know this, but the Jews don't know this. Hence the Temple Institute and the push by orthodox Jews to build a third temple (Herod mearily renovated the second temple). What you say is true, however I surmise that once the church age ends and the 70th week begins we have a brief period where things revert back to the Old Convent. Certainly since the previous 69 weeks were under the Old Covenant, it only seems fitting that the final week will be also. I believe the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will cease except for select individuals (The 144,000) as it was during the O.T. The ministering of angels will be very prominent once again as in was in the O.T. but very little in the N.T.(Rev 14:6-9) Satan’s power in Greek in the New Covenant is ‘exousia’, but during the tribulation, it changes from ‘exousia’ to ‘dunamis’ power again, as it was in the Old Covenant before the Cross. Seventy weeks are determined for the Jews to, among other things, anoint the most holy. This phrase is used some forty times in Scripture, but almost always of things, as the altar and the innermost sanctuary. How can they anoint the most holy without a sanctuary? So we have a brief interim before the Second Coming where Levitcal laws could be in operation once again. I have no problem believing a temporary temple could be erected in very short order and be in operation during the tribulation.

El Gallo wrote:A nearly impregnable conservative evangelical prophetic school built up in the latter 20th Century. It consisted of some doctrines dating back to the 19th Century, like a pre-tribulation rapture.


"All the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." -Ephraim the Syrian (350 AD)

http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:11 pm

Jericho wrote:"All the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." -Ephraim the Syrian (350 AD)


This short quotation is very much taken out of context ......being "Taken to the Lord" was meant to be understood as BY Death.....Victorious death and defeat of the son of perdition, he could not Steal them from Christ by the Fear and Confusion he was bringing.......here is much of what Ephrium the Syrian wrote regarding that time..


"Groups and nations will join him, And every person will renounce their deity; Everyone will say of him to their fellow That they should acknowledge him, the Son of Destruction! Peoples will fall upon one another, Slaying each other with swords. The elect will flee from his presence To the peaks of mountains and hills, And there will be calamity on earth Unlike any that came before. Fear will fall upon all people And they will be overcome with terror. Children will renounce their father And follow after the Evil One; Priests will abandon their altars To serve as his heralds. People will flee to cemeteries And hide themselves among the dead, Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: ‘Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions! But as for us, woe is us! For when we die, Vultures will serve as escort for us!’ And if the days of that time were not shortened, The elect would never survive The calamities and afflictions. For Our Lord revealed (and) disclosed to us In his Gospel when He said: ‘Those days will be shortened For the sake of the elect and the saints.’ And when he has harassed the whole of creation, (When) the Son of Destruction (has bent it) to his will, Enoch and Elijah will be sent That they might persuade the Evil One. With a gentle question The saints will come before him, In order to expose the Son of Destruction Before the assemblies surrounding him: ‘If you are indeed God, Tell us what we ask of you: Where is the place that you have hidden The elders Elijah and Enoch?’ The Evil One will respond and say To the saints at that time: ‘When I wish (it), they are in the height(s), Or again should I choose, they are within the sea; For I have authority over habitations, Since there is no other god apart from me And I can make anything On earth (and) also in heaven!’ They will answer The Son of Destruction as follows: ‘If you are truly God, Call out to the deceased so that they will rise! For it is written within the books Of the prophets and the apostles That when the Messiah reveals Himself, He will resurrect the dead from the graves. If you cannot show us this (sign), Then the One who was crucified is greater than you! For he roused and resurrected those who were dead, And was exalted in great splendor.’ Then the Evil One will become enraged With the saints at that time; He will draw his terrible sword And sever the necks of the righteous ones.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:30 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:If this is true then I am just a tad curious how you would explain this passage:2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. How can the man of lawlessness take his seat in the body of Christ to display himself as God? This "man" seems diametrically opposed to Christ and thus could not be "seated" in Christ in any way whatsoever.


this is the answer.......



watching wrote:
Hi Mark,

That's why I believe it says, "SO AS" " in the temple of God" "to sit."

Not "will sit."

Also the word "IN" can be translated, "AMONG".

Surly the ungodly and unholy...... Can........ Sit........... "Among" the Saints, " the Living Stones" of the Temple of God.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby El Gallo on Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:58 pm

Thanks all for the feedback. I did forget to mention the Thessalonian reference, as I meant to. Just as the Revelation passage could mean I and those who agree on this point are full of soup, still I rest on the facts of original language, that Messaih is the temple, and that we see no evidence of a Jewish temple arising in the foreseeable future (absent soemthing like Joel Rosenberg's imaginative formulation). (Btw, I do believe the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa, along with all they represent, are part of a continuing abomination.)

I will say much relates back to expectations. As stated, Daniel did not pronounce an abomination in a Jewish temple. The NIV and other translations assume that is what he meant --but not the KJV. Neither did Jesus say a temple, but rather "holy place"; i.e., a place belonging to God. In fact --and please correct me if this is not true --I believe the only places on all of this world that God's scripture still makes clear are His places specifically are the believer and, covenantly, Jerusalem. Upshot is written Hebrew and Greek are both famously cryptic, ergo the many competing interpretations. Even if Paul meant the temple, I believe Paul could have expected a temple would be the place b/c that was in existence at the time he wrote and all his trainng as a Pharisee would lead him to that presumption. But that does not make him fallible on the doctrines of faith at all.

As to pre-trib, I am a firm Seventh Trumpeter, and I will defend that postion until snatched up pre-trib!
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Jericho on Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:06 pm

shorttribber wrote:This short quotation is very much taken out of context ......being "Taken to the Lord" was meant to be understood as BY Death.....Victorious death and defeat of the son of perdition, he could not Steal them from Christ by the Fear and Confusion he was bringing.......here is much of what Ephrium the Syrian wrote regarding that time..


Hello shorttribber. I've had to do some digging and I've discovered some things. The quote you use and the quote I use come from two different translations and are probably not written by Ephrium at all but are written under a pseudonym. Let me explain...

The quote I used is based upon Latin text entitled "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World A Sermon by Pseudo-Ephraem and Isidor of Sevilla." And may date around the 7th century AD, well after Ephraem (306 – 373).

The quote you use is based off Syriac text entitled "SERMON OF PSEUDO-EPHREM ON THE END OF THE WORLD"

Both of these works are written under a pseudonym and are not necessarily written by the same person. Most importantly they are not the same text. This is from Wikipedia, I've underlined the important parts:

A translation of a Latin text (with disputed date) of what is purported to be a sermon of Pseudo-Ephraem, by a professor at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, Tx., Cameron Rhoades, is cited by some, to support an early Church reference to the rapture. However, exactly how early is questionable. The Latin text may not date before the 8th-century and may be a conflated text, and not translated directly from either the Syriac or Greek texts.

For perspective, according to Frazier, "Collections of works ascribed to Ephrem exist in several languages, the largest body of texts being Greek. Nearly all the surviving texts attributed to Ephrem in languages other than Syriac and Armenian are derived from this Greek corpus, including the Latin corpus.

Importantly, according to Reeves, "The Latin pseudo-Ephrem and the Syriac pseudo-Ephrem are not the same text, and the nature of their relationship to one another has yet to be satisfactorily explained. What does seem to be clear is that the Latin text borrows from the Pseudo-Methodius apocalypse (and is thus later than circa 700 CE), whereas the Syriac text seems to be older and does not betray such influence."[4]

Thus, different translations from different underlying texts (Syriac text, Greek, and Latin) may be confusedly cited as the same Pseudo-Ephraem sermon and popular writers may not point out these important differences, e.g., that the Latin text is later and borrows from Pseudo-Methodius.

The opinions of scholars are divided on the origins of this apocalypse, but a date later than Ephraem with pseudonymous authorship are advanced by some. As an example, C. P. Caspari (Latin text editor) and Paul Alexander advance a date after the demise of (St.) Ephraem. Caspari would date it between late 6th and early 7th AD centuries. Alexander claims the work apparently was originally was written at the end of the 4th AD century, but only reached its final form by the late 6th to early 7th centuries. Thus for these scholars, this is not the actual work of Ephraem the Syrian, but the work of some unknown preacher now termed 'Pseudo- Ephraem'. Yet, both Caspari and Alexander consider Pseudo-Ephraem to be greatly influenced by the actual work of Ephraem.

But despite any debate on the date, this document does give evidence of rapture theory at least as early as the eighth century.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Pseudo-Ephraem

Regardless if it was written by the actual Ephraem or not, I believe the Latin translation does demonstrates a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture well before the 19th century.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:25 pm

Jericho wrote:Regardless if it was written by the actual Ephraem or not, I believe the Latin translation does demonstrates a belief in a pre-tribulation rapture well before the 19th century.


That is ok if you choose to believe such, but the overwhelming evidence from writers much earlier are not at all in agreement with pretrib ideas.

They are all in agreement that the last great conflict the church endures is with antichrist.

something coming down to us that is so very unclear as to it's origin to begin with is not sound evidence at all.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:13 pm

El Gallo wrote:Neither did Jesus say a temple, but rather "holy place"


Good Post El Gallo. Thanks for bringing forth a few absolute Truths in what has been written in Scripture.

I too do not believe that a Temple will be necessary to carryout the A0D - or else why would it require "understanding" as to what Jesus meant in Matthew 24:15?

As the prophetic time line continues, we can all be assured that understanding will come forth, and our knowledge concerning the Return of our Lord will increase. You've mentioned the "assumptions" that have been made surrounding not only the A0D, but who the "he" is that actually confirms the Covenant with Many, and the timing of the Rapture. Thank you for collectively gathering these very many "assumptions" together as they all relate.

This is just my opinion, but I believe that as the knowledge continues to increase on End Time events, we just may discover that we will have only one End Time player as well - that being the coming Antichrist; and him alone - working behind the power of Satan.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby readyornot on Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:46 pm

Could this AOD be the great falling away, the church players in the outer court, but not the true believers in the Holy of Holies?
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby slick on Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:04 am

Hello Gang,

In study of the AOD issue & the Great Apostasy or Falling away One thing I have come to realize is they are simultaneous and intimately linked to each other so initiates the other in quick succession.

GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!! :armor:
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:27 pm

It does appear from scripture that there will indeed be a rebuilt temple during the millenium. Isa 2 describes the millenium and Jerusalem- 'the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains...many peoples will come and say 'come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob...they will beat their swords into plowshares...''.

Zech 14 also discusses the millenium and the rebuilt temple (Lord's house) in which sacrifices will be offered- 'On that day Holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar....and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them..' Zech 14 also states that the feast of Tabernacles will be celebrated every year, and as we all know there are sacrifices offered during the feast.

Also, Zech 6 appears to indicate that it will be Jesus who rebuilds the millennial temple- ''Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from this place and build the temple of the Lord. It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.' Jesus is the one who brings together the priesthood and kingship, He is the 'Branch', and the Jews do recognize this passage as applying to the Messiah.

As Jesus rebuilds the temple and apparently rules from it during the millenium, it appears that Jesus has no problem with a rebuilt temple. As sacrifices appear to be offered in that temple during the millenium, it appears that Jesus has no problem with sacrifices. Although Jesus is the atonement for sin and sacrifices for sin are now void, there is more to sacrifices that sin offerings (fellowship offerings, offerings of devotion, etc.), sacrifices can refer to more than atonement for sin.

And it does appear that God wishes the temple to be rebuilt, according to Haggai- 'Go into the mountains and bring down timber and build the house, so that I may take pleasure in it and be honored....I will shake all nations and the desired of all nations will come and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord Almighty.' Although there is past fulfillment of Haggai, there does appear to be future fulfillment as the 'desired of all nations' is Jesus, and He will fill the house( 'temple') with glory, and all nations will shake at armageddon.

So God does not forbid the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, in fact it appears that He desires it. And it appears that He is angry with the gentile nations that prevent it according to Zech 1- 'I am very jealous for Jerusalem and Zion, but I am angry with the nations that feel secure....I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there my house will be rebuilt...the craftsmen have come to terrify them and throw down the horns of the nations who lifted up their horns against the land of Judah to scatter its people.' (Zech describes 4 horses of colors similar to the 4 horsemen of Rev, could the 4 horsemen be the 4 craftsmen? In scripture was it not the craftsmen who helped build the temple? Could the coming of the 4 craftsmen (horsemen) result in the rebuilding of the temple?)

As there is no prohibition against rebuilding the temple, when Paul describes the AC setting Himself up in God's temple, the most likely interpretation is that a literal, physical temple is being described. And when a temple is described in Rev containing worshipers and courts the most likely in interpretation is that a literal, physical temple is being described.

It appears that the temple will be rebuilt, at least partially, sacrifices will be reinstituted, and the AC will stop the sacrifices and set himself up as god in the temple. He will come to his end at the hand of the true God when He returns. who will rebuild the temple, and all nations will stream to it.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:43 pm

1whowaits wrote: Although Jesus is the atonement for sin and sacrifices for sin are now void, there is more to sacrifices that sin offerings (fellowship offerings, offerings of devotion, etc.), sacrifices can refer to more than atonement for sin.


reconciliation=atonement

Ezekiel 45
15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings,............. to make............. reconciliation for them, saith the Lord GOD.
16 All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel.
17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the....................................................SIN............................................... offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings,........... to make ...........reconciliation for the house of Israel.

And weigh it against this text please.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and.............. to make........... reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The Literal rebuilt temple promises were conditional.....and the conditions were not met.

Ezk 43
7 And he said unto me,.................................... Son of man.............................., the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9 Now...................... let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me,................................ and I will .......................................dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel,......................... that.................... they may be ashamed of their iniquities:.................... and let them measure......................... the pattern.
11 And........................................................ IF................................................................. they be ashamed of all that they have done,............... shew them................ the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight,............. that............ they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and........... do........... them.


God is No Longer obligated.........THEY......WOULD NOT!


Math 23
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


Know Ye Not, that YE ARE the Temple, and Jesus Himself IS the Cornerstone?
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:41 pm

Although we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, that does not preclude or eliminate the existence of a physical temple on earth. There were many 'temples' of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost, and the Hebrew Temple remained and early christians worshipped there, and sacrifices continued.

The question is not whether a physical temple can exist, it can and from scripture it appears that it will. The question is what does God want and what will God approve of? Jesus dwelling in a rebuilt temple during the millenium does appear to be what God wants and it does appear to be what scripture describes. And for whatever reason sacrifices will take place, that is His perogative.

A physical temple rebuilt by the Jewish people to honor God and worship Him? There appears to be no prohibition in scripture against this, and it appears that the temple was destroyed twice because of Israel's rebellion and rejection of God, not because God hates the temple. If Israel repents and turns to God a rebuilding of the temple would naturally follow, and many Jews believe that they are commanded to rebuild the temple whenever they are in the land.

Jesus has eliminated the need for repeated sin offerings, His sacrifice is the only one acceptable to God for any sin, including the sins of Israel. If Israel does not accept Christ they remain in their sin, their sin is not atoned for, but does that make the temple unacceptable to God? Paul calls the temple 'God's temple' in 2 Thess 2, so apparently God allows His name to be attached to it.

The temple described in Ezek has premillenial and millenial aspects to it suggesting that this may be the temple plan Israel follows in the future and is later rebuilt by Jesus during the millenium. This would make sense if an event like Gog-magog occurred, after which the Jewish people would realize God acted on their behalf, and respond, and the Ezek 40 passage does follow the Gog passage in Ezek 38-39.

So after Gog-magog occurs, and God rescues and blesses Israel and she then rebuilds the temple, while christians in the gentile nations suffer hardship and persecution, what will the response be? Would there be a great falling away?
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:48 pm

shorttribber wrote:Ezk:4517 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the....................................................SIN............................................... offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings,........... to make ...........reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Please 1WW, Please weigh the Above Text against this following Text.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and.............. to make........... reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The Literal rebuilt temple promises were conditional.....and the conditions were not met.


1whowaits wrote: If Israel does not accept Christ they remain in their sin, their sin is not atoned for, but does that make the temple unacceptable to God?


Yes, unacceptable it is. Their...... SIN........IS......Atoned For, Past Present and Future.......Atonement was.........MADE.....by Christ, because anyone OR National Israel doesn't................Receive.....that Atonement is Beside the point.......Atonement for........... SIN..........IS...........NO MORE.......NO............MORE.

There was NO MORE sprinkling of the Blood and Ashes of the red heifer on the Mercy Seat after Christ, and not for Six hundred years Before Christ!
Again, Israel's Acceptance of Christ's Atoning Blood does Not Subtract from Christ's.............MAKING/Manufacturing....The ATONEMENT.

Again....from the Above text ...

"he shall prepare the....................................................SIN............................................... offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings,........... to make ...........reconciliation for the house of Israel.

And THIS Occurs in the Future? ANOTHER..........Making......of ATONEMENT?

No Way. God WILL NOT Fulfill this......It Was, AS I Have Plainly Said, Conditional.

No Way.

IT IS FINISHED!
Last edited by shorttribber on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:11 am

And THIS Occurs in the Future? ANOTHER..........Making......of ATONEMENT?

No Way. God WILL NOT Fulfill this......It Was, AS I Have Plainly Said, Conditional.

No Way.

IT IS FINISHED!


I have seen this kind of logic argued here before. I think there is more than one way to look at it.

first of all we must look at the context of Daniel 9, Daniel is praying for his people.
Daniel 9:9-19
9 “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him;
10 nor have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets.
11 “Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.
12 “Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth.
14 “Therefore the Lord has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the Lord our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.
15 “And now, O Lord our God, who have brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and have made a name for Yourself, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have been wicked.
16 “O Lord, in accordance with all Your righteous acts, let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; for because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach to all those around us.
17 “So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary.
18 “O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion.
19 “O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”



Daniel is asking God to hear his prayers for Israel, he is requesting God to take action on behalf of Jerusalem in particular, but also for his people.

Gabriel brings the answer to this prayer.

Daniel 9:20-27
20 Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God,
21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering.
22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding.
23 “At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision.
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
25 “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”


Note that the answer covers all seventy weeks, not just the final week. "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and the holy city"....to make atonement for iniquity etc.... "so you are to discern that from the issuing of a decree.... until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty two weeks....... then after the sixty two weeks Messiah will be cut off...." Could this be the fulfillment to "make atonement for iniquity"? Jesus made atonement for iniquity, He fulfilled this part of the prophecy. After this the sanctuary was destroyed again by the Romans it is the final week of the prophecy that still has to be fulfilled before Israel and Jerusalem will be restored. It is not that Israel has to atone for their sin during this final week, Jesus who was a member of the nation of Israel already fulfilled that part of the prophecy. However Israel has not recognized Him for it. They cannot be restored until they are ashamed of their sin and recognize that Christ is their savior who atoned for them.

To say that will not ever happen is to discount the prophets of the old testament. Their prophecies will be fulfilled, yes the vision of Ezekiel was conditional, but Israel will one day repent and then they will rebuild the temple. In fact many Jews have realized Christ as their savior even today.

Ezekiel 6:8-9
8 “However, I will leave a remnant, for you will have those who escaped the sword among the nations when you are scattered among the countries.
9 “Then those of you who escape will remember Me among the nations to which they will be carried captive, how I have been hurt by their adulterous hearts which turned away from Me, and by their eyes which played the harlot after their idols; and they will loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed, for all their abominations.


Ezekiel 16:60-63
60 “Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.
61 “Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant.
62 “Thus I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord,
63 so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done,” the Lord God declares.


Zechariah 12:6-10
6 “In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.
7 “The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah.
8 “In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them.
9 “And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.


Atonement has been made for all but atonement isn't realized by anyone until they repent and are forgiven.

Israel will repent and they will be forgiven and restored and the temple rebuilt.

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:49 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Atonement has been made for all but atonement isn't realized by anyone until they repent and are forgiven.


"Atonement has been made ", That's the problem! If, as you think, the Atonement "MADE" falls OUTSIDE the Seventy weeks....then there HAS BEEN ZERO Atonement "MADE" SO FAR for Israel.......but....

.....**********HEBREWS*********............. 2
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,........... to make............ reconciliation for the sins of the people.

WHEN Reconciliation is Received is NOT..........WHEN.......Reconciliation........WAS....... "MADE".

2Cor 5
19 To wit, that God was in Christ,................... reconciling.............. the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:57 am

Surly the ungodly and unholy...... Can........ Sit........... "Among" the Saints, " the Living Stones" of the Temple of God.


Scripture says:

1 Corinthians 6:19
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?


My body is the temple, for the lawless one to "take" his seat in the temple, and that temple is me, then he has to take his seat in me, not "among" me, but in me. It is impossible. And Taking his seat implies that he does so in order to rule, to have a kingdom conferred upon himself. And even if I was to see it your way I would say that-yes the ungodly can and often do sit among the saints, but they do not do so while declaring themselves to be God and desiring to be worshiped and exalted as God. The righteous Body of Christ could not and would not ever allow it.

However the Jews would, they are still waiting for a messiah, they are also preparing to rebuild a temple, though I do not believe it would be built according to Ezekiel's plan. It is completely within the character of the antichrist, lawless one, to desire a temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem to seat himself in and he has willing participants to build him one just waiting for him to appear with his lying signs and wonders. As we know there will be a remnant from among each of the tribes of Israel that will follow Christ, that will come to trust in Him as their true Savior during the first half of the 70th week. The holy place is Jerusalem and the place of the throne of God is the temple mount, it was and will again be the footstool of His throne.

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:59 am

shorttribber wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Atonement has been made for all but atonement isn't realized by anyone until they repent and are forgiven.


"Atonement has been made ", That's the problem! If, as you think, the Atonement "MADE" falls OUTSIDE the Seventy weeks....then there HAS BEEN ZERO Atonement "MADE" SO FAR for Israel.......but....

.....**********HEBREWS*********............. 2
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,........... to make............ reconciliation for the sins of the people.

WHEN Reconciliation is Received is NOT..........WHEN.......Reconciliation........WAS....... "MADE".

2Cor 5
19 To wit, that God was in Christ,................... reconciling.............. the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Umm I am pretty sure I am saying that atonement was made inside the 70 weeks, I am in agreement with you. But when reconciliation was MADE is Not necessarily WHEN it is received. :mrgreen:

If it was then we would have no need to carry forth the word of reconciliation, because it hasn't been received by all those who will believe yet.

RT
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:00 am

Let me put it another way...sorry if this is repetitious......

the Atoning WORK OF Christ ALONE....the WORK/Sacrificial/Priestly WORK OF CHRIST ALONE.....Demands, DEMANDS, that HIS WORK.....................His WORK, ON the CROSS...That IS FINISHED...................BE INCLUDED....






....................................IN.....................the Seventy Weeks Proper!




Period.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:02 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Umm I am pretty sure I am saying that atonement was made inside the 70 weeks, I am in agreement with you. But when reconciliation was MADE is Not necessarily WHEN it is received.


the above post of mine shows WHY...there remains a discrepancy in your reasoning
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:32 am

shorttribber wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Umm I am pretty sure I am saying that atonement was made inside the 70 weeks, I am in agreement with you. But when reconciliation was MADE is Not necessarily WHEN it is received.


the above post of mine shows WHY...there remains a discrepancy in your reasoning



When Christ said it is finished on the cross, He by giving his life finished the purpose he came for, to make atonement by shedding his blood.

I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make since we agree on Christ having made atonement for all ,and that work was completed at cavalry.

Are you trying to say that everyone is reconciled?????

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:45 am

come to think of it when you look at Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks, messiah is cut off after the 7 and 62 weeks or in other words after the 69th week. Not actually within the 70 weeks. Which I find rather curious. The 69 weeks end before Christ is cut off, the destruction of the sanctuary and the city also falls after the 69th week but not within the 70th, The 70th week begins when the prince (of the people who destroyed the city) comes and confirms a covenant with many for one week. I find this very interesting, though I know people interpret it differently. But the atonement that Christ made is actually outside the 70 weeks. Though I still agree that the atonement made by Christ was also made for Israel who will one day be re-grafted into the olive tree.

Romans 11:24-28
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;


The work of atonement was completed but Israel has not yet been saved, "all Israel WILL be saved" (future)
"He WILL remove ungodliness from Jacob" (future) when does this happen?

Paul says; after "the fulness of the gentiles has come in"

hm........

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:05 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:When Christ said it is finished on the cross, He by giving his life finished the purpose he came for, to make atonement by shedding his blood.


Right "to Make" is the Key words..."to make atonement ". HIS WORK of Atonement.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make since we agree on Christ having made atonement for all ,and that work was completed at cavalry. Are you trying to say that everyone is reconciled?????


Yes. we..... All..... have been Reconciled, and ALL Sin Atoned for.....While Christ Took Upon Himself the SINS of the Entire World...............the Veil is rent in twain, Access to the Father Completed.
Receiving that Atonement is Another Matter.....that, WE DO By Faith....individually.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The work of atonement was completed but Israel has not yet been saved, "all Israel WILL be saved" (future)"He WILL remove ungodliness from Jacob" (future) when does this happen?Paul says; after "the fulness of the gentiles has come in"


All Israel? How about the Jews that are 80% Jewish.....will they be saved?.....how about a person with 20% Jewish blood?
Will only 100% Jewish blooded people be saved?
Can you see the difficulty in the way you're thinking?
Last edited by shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:08 am

Great discussion!

"all Israel WILL be saved"


I believe this may be hyperbole. The term "all Israel" is found 147 times in scripture without the understanding of every single resident. For example:

Deu_13:11 "Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such a wicked thing among you.

Jos_8:15 Joshua and all Israel pretended to be beaten before them, and fled by the way of the wilderness.

1Sa_17:11 When Saul and all Israel heard these words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid.

1Ki_14:18 All Israel buried him and mourned for him, according to the word of the LORD which He spoke through His servant Ahijah the prophet.

Dan_9:11 "Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice


Plus over 100 more scriptures using this term. fwiw...
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:22 am

"all Israel WILL be saved" (future)"He WILL remove ungodliness from Jacob"

Please understand................"Jacob" IS Fleshly, Earthly, Carnal Non-Eternal "SEED".
But Israel IS "Spiritual, Heavenly, Glorious, Eternal "SEED" And....ONE With/IN Christ, the SEED of Abraham, Yes, ALL who Are FINALLY IN Christ, JEWS and Gentiles....ALL Israel....will be SAVED.

Israel has Not been Replaced.........Israel has Always been a Spiritual SEED.......Gentiles are Just Included IN Israel.
Israel has Not Been Replaced, and Never Will be Replaced.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:32 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:come to think of it when you look at Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks, messiah is cut off after the 7 and 62 weeks or in other words after the 69th week. Not actually within the 70 weeks. Which I find rather curious. The 69 weeks end before Christ is cut off


Now we do at least agree in part....but I find it not curious at all. There is no mystery or curiosity that remains to be settled.

Christ was Crucified, 3.5 years later....IN the Seventieth week Proper.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:47 am

Christ was Crucified, 3.5 years later....IN the Seventieth week Proper.


You lost me there, but I understand the interpretation you are referring to regarding this idea and I do not agree with it, and remain unconvinced that Christ was crucified in the seventy weeks, that is not how the prophecy reads. Now that I think more on it I must take back what I said earlier- atonement was not achieved within the 70 weeks proper, though it was certainly acheived.
Yes. we..... All..... have been Reconciled, and ALL Sin Atoned for.....While Christ Took Upon Himself the SINS of the Entire World...............the Veil is rent in twain, Access to the Father Completed.
Receiving that Atonement is Another Matter.....that, WE DO By Faith....individually.


Yes by faith we receive the gift of salvation, atonement, redemption as individuals. I agree, and there are individuals that won't come to faith until the last of the 70 weeks. Which by the way still falls within the 70 weeks right? I am not at all suggesting that the sins of Israel have not already been atoned for if that is what you think. I believe they have. But they have not come to faith yet, but God knows that they will, the seventy weeks are God's plan to cause that to happen. Israel will nationally be restored to the prominence they once had, the OT prophets repeatedly speak of the restoration of Israel, and Ezekiel spells it all out pretty succinctly. That is what Daniel was praying for after all when he recieved the answer from Gabriel, that is what the seventy weeks pertains to. The glory of the Lord will return to the temple, the conditions of Israel's repentance will have been met. They will serve the Lord as He intended them to, when they are re-grafted into the tree of salvation whose root is Christ. They are individuals that belong to a nation, and the whole nation at that time will serve him. Read Jeremiah, read Ezekiel, read Isaiah, Zechariah, etc... Israel will have their relationship with God restored. That is what I believe it means when it says all Israel will be saved, each tribe or family of Israel will have a surviving remnant.

Jeremiah 30:5-11
5 “For thus says the Lord,
‘I have heard a sound of terror,
Of dread, and there is no peace.
6 ‘Ask now, and see
If a male can give birth.
Why do I see every man
With his hands on his loins, as a woman in childbirth?
And why have all faces turned pale?
7 ‘Alas! for that day is great,
There is none like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s distress,
But he will be saved from it.
8 ‘It shall come about on that day,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves.
9 ‘But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Fear not, O Jacob My servant,’ declares the Lord,
‘And do not be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar
And your offspring from the land of their captivity.
And Jacob will return and will be quiet and at ease,
And no one will make him afraid.
11 ‘For I am with you,’ declares the Lord, ‘to save you;
For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you,
Only I will not destroy you completely.
But I will chasten you justly
And will by no means leave you unpunished.’


Jeremiah 31:1-2
1 “At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the Lord,
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when it went to find its rest.”


Jeremiah 31:27-40
27 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and with the seed of beast.
28 “As I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to overthrow, to destroy and to bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord.
29 “In those days they will not say again,
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
30 “But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge.
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the Lord,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.
38 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 “The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 “And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.


Jeremiah 33:4-26
4 “For thus says the Lord God of Israel concerning the houses of this city, and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah which are broken down to make a defense against the siege ramps and against the sword,
5 ‘While they are coming to fight with the Chaldeans and to fill them with the corpses of men whom I have slain in My anger and in My wrath, and I have hidden My face from this city because of all their wickedness:
6 ‘Behold, I will bring to it health and healing, and I will heal them; and I will reveal to them an abundance of peace and truth.
7 ‘I will restore the fortunes of Judah and the fortunes of Israel and will rebuild them as they were at first.
8 ‘I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.
9 ‘It will be to Me a name of joy, praise and glory before all the nations of the earth which will hear of all the good that I do for them, and they will fear and tremble because of all the good and all the peace that I make for it.’
10 “Thus says the Lord, ‘Yet again there will be heard in this place, of which you say, “It is a waste, without man and without beast,” that is, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem that are desolate, without man and without inhabitant and without beast,
11 the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voice of those who say,
“Give thanks to the Lord of hosts,
For the Lord is good,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting”;
and of those who bring a thank offering into the house of the Lord. For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were at first,’ says the Lord.
12 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘There will again be in this place which is waste, without man or beast, and in all its cities, a habitation of shepherds who rest their flocks.
13 ‘In the cities of the hill country, in the cities of the lowland, in the cities of the Negev, in the land of Benjamin, in the environs of Jerusalem and in the cities of Judah, the flocks will again pass under the hands of the one who numbers them,’ says the Lord.
14 ‘Behold, days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
15 ‘In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.
16 ‘In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the Lord is our righteousness.’
17 “For thus says the Lord, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
18 and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.’ ”
19 The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying,
20 “Thus says the Lord, ‘If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time,
21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers.
22 ‘As the host of heaven cannot be counted and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ”
23 And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying,
24 “Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the Lord chose, He has rejected them’? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight.
25 “Thus says the Lord, ‘If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established,
26 then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.’ ”



Jeremiah 32:36-44
36 “Now therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel concerning this city of which you say, ‘It is given into the hand of the king of Babylon by sword, by famine and by pestilence.’
37 “Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety.
38 “They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
41 “I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.
42 “For thus says the Lord, ‘Just as I brought all this great disaster on this people, so I am going to bring on them all the good that I am promising them.
43 ‘Fields will be bought in this land of which you say, “It is a desolation, without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.”
44 ‘Men will buy fields for money, sign and seal deeds, and call in witnesses in the land of Benjamin, in the environs of Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the hill country, in the cities of the lowland and in the cities of the Negev; for I will restore their fortunes,’ declares the Lord.”


Ezekiel 39:25-29
25 Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name.
26 “They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid.
27 “When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.
28 “Then they will know that I am the Lord their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.
29 “I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord God.


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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:58 am

shorttribber wrote:"all Israel WILL be saved" (future)"He WILL remove ungodliness from Jacob"

Please understand................"Jacob" IS Fleshly, Earthly, Carnal Non-Eternal "SEED".
But Israel IS "Spiritual, Heavenly, Glorious, Eternal "SEED" And....ONE With/IN Christ, the SEED of Abraham, Yes, ALL who Are FINALLY IN Christ, JEWS and Gentiles....ALL Israel....will be SAVED.

Israel has Not been Replaced.........Israel has Always been a Spiritual SEED.......Gentiles are Just Included IN Israel.
Israel has Not Been Replaced, and Never Will be Replaced.


Well again yes I agree with what you are saying but when the OT prophets talk about Israel being saved and restored, and when Paul was talking about Israel being re-grafted he wasn't talking about the spiritual heavenly reality, he was talking about the physical people called Israel- the descendants of Jacob, the living breathing mortals who will reside on earth.

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:52 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:when Paul was talking about Israel being re-grafted he wasn't talking about the spiritual heavenly reality, he was talking about the physical people called Israel- the descendants of Jacob, the living breathing mortals who will reside on earth.


Agreed, God is not Finished with National Israel just yet. He will yet have More of True Israel Born by Him from among Carnal Jacob.

That said....

Resurrection Torchlight wrote: Now that I think more on it I must take back what I said earlier- atonement was not achieved within the 70 weeks proper, though it was certainly achieved.


This Should still be much More than Just a Curiosity to Any future Seven Year tribber though.

Hopefully you Will come to Recognize that.

Luv and Blessings RT :hugs:
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:12 pm

ST, a rebuilt temple does nothing to change the atonement of Christ, whether a temple is rebuilt or not it has no effect on what Jesus has already done.

A temple is a physical structure, holy is something that is separated or set apart, a holy temple would then be a physical structure that has been set apart. Set apart for what? A physical structure set apart for the worship of God.

What is 'a' church? A church is a physical structure set apart for the worship of God. But we are the temples of the the Holy Spirit, we are the church of Jesus Christ, how can we and physical church buildings both be sanctioned, how can we coexist? Does not the physical building take away our significance as temples of the Holy Spirit, our significance as 'the' church? Obviously not.

In like manner a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem does not take away the significance of christians as the temple of the Holy Spirit, they can coexist. The temple would function much in the way as a church building, a physical structure set aside to focus the worship of human beings on God. The temple could be seen as the national church of the nation of Israel.

While a physical building set aside for the worship of God may be acceptable to God, it does not mean that the type of worship that occurs in that physical structure is also acceptable to God.

The problem is not the rebuilt temple, it is the type of worship or who is worshipped inside that temple that may or may not be acceptable to God.

What worship does God find acceptable? Any offering for sin other that that of Jesus Christ is not acceptable, the atonement by Jesus has already been made and there is no substitute. The blood of bulls and goats no longer can be offered for sin, the atonement of Christ has been offered once for all and will not occur again, anything other than the blood of Christ for sin is unacceptable.

But Israel offered more that sin offerings and sacrifices in the temple, there were offerings and sacrifices which do not involve atonement for sin, offerings of worship and fellowship and devotion. Would those sacrifices and offerings be acceptable worship to God, in a temple set apart for the worship of God, following instructions that God Himself gave to the nation of Israel?

That would be up to God, and considering what is described in Zech 14, there may be that possibility.

And if Israel repented and turned to God and rebuilt the temple would God become outraged and destroy the temple? Would He send destruction and judgement on them? Or like a patient Father would He protect them and guide those who are faithful to a knowledge of Jesus Christ, whom they would eventually accept as their atonement, finally fulfilling Dan 9?
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:48 pm

This Should still be much More than Just a Curiosity to Any future Seven Year tribber though.

Hopefully you Will come to Recognize that.

Luv and Blessings RT :hugs:


It is definitely much more than a curiosity but it is curious all the same, we are members of the same body, and we don't have to see eye to eye on everything. Prophecy is a difficult thing to understand and perhaps we may just have to agree that we won't agree, I still and will continue to regard you with respect and with the love of Christ.

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:09 pm

1whowaits wrote:What worship does God find acceptable? Any offering for sin other that that of Jesus Christ is not acceptable, the atonement by Jesus has already been made and there is no substitute. The blood of bulls and goats no longer can be offered for sin, the atonement of Christ has been offered once for all and will not occur again, anything other than the blood of Christ for sin is unacceptable.


Correct, that's why this text from Ezk .will not be fulfilled....It's all or nothing...you can't just pick and choose.

shorttribber wrote:Ezk 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the....................................................SIN............................................... offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings,........... to make ...........reconciliation for the house of Israel.


"Any offering for sin other that that of Jesus Christ is not acceptable, the atonement by Jesus has already been made and there is no substitute"

Agreed.
Last edited by shorttribber on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:11 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
This Should still be much More than Just a Curiosity to Any future Seven Year tribber though.

Hopefully you Will come to Recognize that.

Luv and Blessings RT :hugs:


It is definitely much more than a curiosity but it is curious all the same, we are members of the same body, and we don't have to see eye to eye on everything. Prophecy is a difficult thing to understand and perhaps we may just have to agree that we won't agree, I still and will continue to regard you with respect and with the love of Christ.

RT


:a3: :hugs: and great respect to you too :grin:
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Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:14 pm

1whowaits wrote: The temple would function much in the way as a church building


Not so...here is the text again....

shorttribber wrote:Ezk 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the....................................................SIN............................................... offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings,........... to make ...........reconciliation for the house of Israel.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:51 pm

ST, i would disagree with your interpretation of Ezek 40-48 as it relates to the temple, is the plan for the temple a prophecy to be fulfilled or a conditional plan to be implemented if the conditions were meant? -'describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider the plan, and if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple.....' Ezek 43:10

The implementation of the temple plan described in Ezek was conditional on Israel's repentance, the implication being that if Israel did not repent, this plan was not to be implemented.

When was this plan given? It was given just after the destruction of Jerusalem and the first temple by the Babylonians.

As this plan was given after the destruction of the first temple, it is most likely that the plan in Ezek was meant for the 2nd temple if Israel repented. Did Israel repent as a nation and desire to rebuild the temple after the exile ended? No, there was no real national repentance after the Babylonian exile, and God had to push Israel into rebuilding the second temple.

If Israel had repented and desired to rebuild the 2nd temple as described in Ezek, all the rules that apply to sacrifices and offerings would have applied. But they missed that opportunity, so what appears to have been God's plan for a rebuilt temple after Israel's exile was not fulfilled. And after Jesus came and offered atonement the rules of the temple in Ezek regarding sin offerings could no longer apply.

But that does not mean that at some future point, after say Gog-Magog, Israel will read the temple plan in Ezek and build that temple. They may have missed the time originally planned by God, but they may still use the plan on their own.


The temple described in Ezek has both pre-millenial aspects, such as the prince offering sacrifices for sin, and millenial aspects, found in the later chapters that describe the land and the river coming out from the temple. So although what appears to be the plan for a temple before Jesus, may actually be built by Israel before Jesus' return outside of God's intention, and then rebuilt by Jesus during the millenium, when Israel truly repents and accepts the atonement of Jesus.

So Ezek 40-48 may be partially a conditional plan for the temple in which the conditions were not met, and also partially a plan to be followed for the temple built by Jesus during the millenium. So, yes, we can pick and choose because part of the temple plan of Ezek will be fulfilled, that which applies to the millenium, and part will not be fulfilled, that which applies to what could have been the 2nd temple.

And although the Jewish people may build a temple based on Ezek, prior to Christ's return, it appears that they still will not meet its conditions- 'This is the law of the temple: All the surrounding area on top of the mountain will be most holy..' Ezek 43....'measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court...because it has been given to the gentiles..' Rev 11.
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Re: WILL AOD OCCUR IN A REBUILT JEWISH TEMPLE?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:40 pm

shorttribber wrote: that's why this text from Ezk .will not be fulfilled....It's all or nothing...you can't just pick and choose.shorttribber wrote:Ezk 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the....................................................SIN............................................... offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings,........... to make ...........reconciliation for the house of Israel.


1whowaits wrote:So Ezek 40-48 may be partially a conditional plan for the temple in which the conditions were not met, and also partially a plan to be followed for the temple built by Jesus during the millenium. So, yes, we can pick and choose because part of the temple plan of Ezek will be fulfilled, that which applies to the millenium, and part will not be fulfilled, that which applies to what could have been the 2nd temple.


Guess we'll all find out very soon :grin:
:hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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