CUFI Speaker: “666″ is “In the Name of Allah”

[WalkingWithJesus]

View the article here

Excerpt:
Posted on June 30, 2008 by Richard Bartholomew

*Text has been amended (June 2009) following input from a reader. The “Very Old Text (Rev. 13:18) in glass display” fragment is from the supplement to the Codex Vaticanus; I had originally doubted this.

When Joe Lieberman gives credibility to the upcoming Christians United for Israel with his attendance, he won’t just be lending his reputation to conspiracy-monger John Hagee. Also on the CUFI line-up is Walid Shoebat, the self-proclaimed former Palestinian Muslim terrorist-turned Christian evangelist. Various sources have challenged Shoebat’s account of his former terrorism, with the Jerusalem Post in particular raising questions about his story that so far have not been answered.

Shoebat also fancies himself as a bit of a Biblical scholar and palaeographer, and in a video clip that I have just been made aware of he expounds his theory that the “number of the Beast” mentioned in the Book of Revelation is in fact a reference to…Allah.

The argument is that the author of Revelation was shown the Mark of the Beast in “video” form from God – obviously following Hal Lindsey’s idea that the visions in Revelation, rather than being symbolic, in fact are John’s interpretations of images from the future he couldn’t understand (“locusts” being helicopters, and so on). With the Mark of the Beast, John saw some strange squiggles, which he incorporated into the text. For centuries, readers thought these squiggles were the Greek letters for either “666″ or “616″, but finally Shoebat has cracked the mystery: the squiggles are in fact Arabic, and they spell out “In the Name of Allah”!

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtquNNEO7Fw

[Jay]

Thanks WWJ! I have to admit the insight is as good as any I have seen.

To me the evidence always pointed to catholicism and islam.

When evil is committed for evil's sake...that's when the false god's name is shouted out.

Tragic things would have to happen to the West in order for Islam to gain that much power.

[daffodyllady]

It is very possible. I have seen and compared both texts, and they are extremely alike!

[BdTBIC]

clip_image002.jpg (19.45 KiB) Viewed 4470 times

[javierruizleon]

http://www.muhammadtube.com/videos/186/ ... ah-and-666

If the video freezes, hit refresh

[BdTBIC]

Thats a reasoned approach, but without knowing anything about any of this, I would not wear the Bismallah, even
on threat of death.


Good video, thanks. What happened when I played it the audio was fine, the video part froze, so if the picture doesn't change, :-( Refresh

[watching]

sarcasm on:

......Whatever in the world would Greek letters/symbols be doing in a text that is written all in Greek?


.....I guess when the writer of Revelation decided to insert the word Allah in Arabic script into the Greek text, he must have accidentally made the squiggly mark upright so it looks exactly like the letter Xi (ξ) instead of lying on it's side the way it a similar looking symbol/word would be if it was written in Arabic.

edit: Hey, I just thought of something, maybe it was really supposed to be a "w" and maybe the apostle John was really talking about someone with the middle initial "w."

Maybe I should start a conspiracy theory about that.

......And I guess the fact that it looks exactly like the letter ξ and not so much like the squiggly symbol that should be sideways, was an accident as well.

......I guess it's just as natural for someone to slip in Arabic words or symbols into a text that is written all in Greek, as it is for someone to slip in words that are pronounced with an American accent while they are supposedly speaking with an Arabic accent.

......I guess the fact that the scripture in Revelation says:

e
Revelation 13:18 (King James Version)

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

it really meant "symbol for Islam in Arabic, and two words written in Arabic" and not really "number."

sarcasm off

Btw, I wouldn't call the fact that in ancient Greece they used the letters of the alphabet and a few other symbols in order to calculate with, "Gematria," since you can't very well calculate with entire words written out, and since the Arabic numeral system which is used today for that purpose was not even invented until about 500 A.D>

http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/history/gr_count/gr_count.html
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Counting.htm
http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/greek-alphabet.htm
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/greeks/science/math/numbers.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals

I always wondered what my 666th post would be about.

Edit: Everything written between sarcasm on: and sarcasm off was meant to be sarcastic.

[learningeachday]

I always wondered what my 666th post would be about.

So please forgive me a moment here, watching, but I may be having a . Am I understanding your post correctly; that you do NOT believe the text was giving us the name of Allah? I'm just a tad confused....

[watching]

Hi learningeachday,

Am I understanding your post correctly; that you do NOT believe the text was giving us the name of Allah?

No I do not!

In fact I tried to make the sarcasm signs as large as possible, so it would be clear that I was being sarcastic!

I believe the symbols represent a number, just as the text says.

Now, who the number may, or may not, be associated with, I have no idea.

I am only trying to stand up for what the text actually says, and against reading things into it that are not there.

[watching]

Hi learningeachday,

I just got finished watching the last video, and I can understand, now, why you may have been confused with my post.

Just to clarify, my post was in response to the first video of Walid Shoebat. I had not seen the last video before making my post. (I thought it was just going to be another video of Walid Shoebat.)

Sorry for the confusion.

[rizen]

The Greek word for beast is "therion". If you spell out the Greek word therion using the Hebrew gematria, you will discover it equates to 666.

Tav (400) Resh (200) Yod (10) Vav (6) Nun (50)

http://www.numberman.net/Hebrew_Gem_Calculator.html

Furthermore, if you take each individual letter of the Greek word therion and spell it out in Hebrew, you will find the word has a meaning behind it:

Tav - Mark
Resh - Head
Yod - Hand (fist)
Vav - Hook
Nun - Fish

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Hebr ... aning.html

Mark + Head + Hand = Rev. 13:16

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

Hook + Fish = Matthew 17:27

Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

In Rev. 13:18 John is clearly asking us to identify the type of beast (like a leopard + bear + lion) that he saw rise up out of the sea. It WAS a DRAGON or DRAGONS (7 heads).

The plural form of "dragons" spelled out in Hebrew is:

D - Draw or Door
R - Head
K - Axe
O - Hook
N - Fish
I - Hand (begging)
M - Water (metaphorically = nations)

Draw/Door + Head + Axe = 2 Kings 6:4-6

So he went with them. And when they came to Jordan, they cut down wood. But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed. And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.

Hook + Fish + Hand + Water = Eze. 29:3-4 and Job 41:1-2

Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself. But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales. (Eze. 29:3-4)

Scales of Dragon, Leviathan, Therion (Greek "beast"), Behemah (Hebrew "beast") or Chevya (Aramaic "beast") = Pride (Job 41:15)

Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn? (Job 41:1-2)

As you can see, the Greek word "therion" is clearly being used to identify distinctly Hebrew concepts. These concepts are taken directly from the Old Testament and have nothing whatsoever to do with the Islam or the Koran.

[jgilberAZ]

.
Do you not find it strange that when John writes of other numbers, he spells out the entire number? For instance, the 144,000:

And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: (Rev 7:4)

The Greek John wrote was:

hekaton tessarakonta tessares tessara chilias

Or, "a hundred," "forty," "four", "thousand."

He does this throughout the Revelation ... writing out longhand the words for the numbers.

Yet, when he gets to the mark of the beast, he uses Greek symbols?

Why use "χξς" instead of writing out "six" "hundred" "sixty" "six" as he did everywhere else?

I don't think we can say "I'm standing up for what the text says" in reference to 666, since the text does not actually say "666." It has three symbols "χξς", not the words "chi" "xi" "digamma."

You can say they're Greek ... most likely are. But, the claim that they may represent Arabic words should not be totally dismissed, IMHO. Otherwise, why would John (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) use symbols instead of words?

John also tells us how to identify the Antichrist:

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. (1Jn 2:22)

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. (1Jn 4:2-3)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2Jn 1:7)

Is this not Islam?

This is what's inscribed inside the Dome of the Rock:

God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son.

As far as counting the number of the beast ...

The word for count is only used one other time in the New Testament. When you're told to count the cost of following the Lord, are you expected to sit down and mathematically calculate it? No. It means to come to an understanding of it. It does not mean to use math to figure it out. Likewise, we are to understand the mark of the beast. In fact, that's what the text says ... he who has understanding, count (or understand) the mark of the beast.

Concerning the "number" ... arithmos ...

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/arithmos.html

1. a fixed and definite number
2. an indefinite number, a multitude

Either a fixed number, or an indefinite number ... a multitude.

We are to understand that the multitude of the beast, the multitude of men, are represented by this symbol "χξς"

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number χξς

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding reckon the multitude of the beast: for it is the multitude of man; and their multitude χξς

That is a valid rendition of the underlying Greek text and symbol.

I'm not saying with absolute certainty that I agree with 666 -> bismallah. But, I would strongly caution against being so set against the view that you refuse to examine it for its merits. There may, in fact, be some truth to it.
.

[watching]

Hi jgilberAZ,

Yet, when he gets to the mark of the beast, he uses Greek symbols?

Why use "χξς" instead of writing out "six" "hundred" "sixty" "six" as he did everywhere else

Maybe because the mark will, most likely, not be:

ἑξακόσιοι ἑξήκοντα ἕξ,

or

six hundred and sixty six,

but rather:

χξς It was actually, interestingly, shocking to me, while researching this, how many are already warming up to this "expression" (for lack of a better term).

because that is what the text says:

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 13:18 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

18ωδε η σοφια εστιν ο εχων τον νουν ψηφισατω τον αριθμον του θηριου αριθμος γαρ ανθρωπου εστιν και ο αριθμος αυτου χξς

Revelation 13:18 (King James Version)

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

and in modern terms this number would be represented as 666 because:

"chi" χ had a value of, or represented 600

"xi" ξ had a value of, or represented 60, and

"stigma" ς had a value of 6, or represented 6

I don't think we can say "I'm standing up for what the text says" in reference to 666, since the text does not actually say "666." It has three symbols "χξς", not the words "chi" "xi" "digamma."

I just reviewed my post to be sure, and I never said that the text says 666.

All I did was to post links that show that in ancient Greece, for the purpose of calculating mathematical equations, letters and symbols where used to represent the numbers, since the Arabic numeral system had not been invented yet, and because, obviously, it would be rather difficult to solve a mathematical equation by spelling out the words for every number. And those particular symbols would have represented the number which is now expressed as 666 in modern terms, since we now use the Arabic number system that was invented in 500 A.D.

(Btw, I would think that Walid Shoebat knows that, because I would think that Arabic speaking people would be proud of their invention, and would probably know when it was invented.)

You can say they're Greek ... most likely are. But, the claim that they may represent Arabic words should not be totally dismissed, IMHO.

It doesn't make any sense to me for someone to, willy nilly, insert Arabic symbols/words rotated on their side, no less, in the middle of a text that is written all in Greek, to a Greek speaking audience, at the time, without any explanation that this particular "bit" was meant to be Arabic (on it's side), but yet looks exactly like the Greek symbols that everyone was already familiar with.

(But that's not confusing according to Walid Shoebat.

According to Walid Shoebat, Greek symbols written within a Greek text is what's confusing. Go figure.)

jgilberAZ wrote:

Otherwise, why would John (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) use symbols instead of words?

Why do we use symbols instead of the word for every number today? Why doesn't your social security card read (whatever the number is) spelled out?

jgilberAZ wrote:

John also tells us how to identify the Antichrist:

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. (1Jn 2:22)

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. (1Jn 4:2-3)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2Jn 1:7)

Is this not Islam?

I'm not saying that Islam is not one of the many:

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2Jn 1:7)

[xdrifter]

The idea that the Bible meant to say Allah instead of 666, is ridiculous.. In fact if we read the KJV the number 666 is not even used, but we are told,

Revelation 13:18 (King James Version)

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Now as far as Hal Lindsays explanation of Johns writings being written from a man who simply did not have the words to describe what he was seeing; since those things had not even come into existence yet, as an explanation of Revelations symbolism.. Once again it is evident that the whos, who of todays celebrity Christians is reading FulfilledProphecys forums.

I consider it a compliment when I hear well respected Christians who people see as "authoritive" on the subject of our Faith, repeating ideas that are derived from discussions that happened here first.

On the other hand, as someone who had hoped to simply move on to lurking here, I am sad to see that once again something discussed here, has been repeated by a Christian figurehead, and as a result the herd has picked up the idea that John wrote Revelation in a time period when there were no words to describe much of what he saw, and turned it into private interpretations.

We go from Locusts, as Helicopters, to 666 actually being arabic for Allah if you turn it sideways and ignore the fact the rest of the text is not Arabic, and does not include symbols within the text.

[jgilberAZ]

The idea that the Bible meant to say Allah instead of 666, is ridiculous.. In fact if we read the KJV the number 666 is not even used, but we are told,

Revelation 13:18 (King James Version)

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Um ... that's not what the Greek says, however.

[Tevye]

As I have read the text quite a few times and scratched my head in wonder
what are you trying to tell us here God?
I prayed about it and asked God to help here with it's understanding
the scripture says first that:

This calls for wisdom

Wisdom...
Okay God, why wisdom?
Why not just understanding?
I believe there is a purpose in the opening statement there.
Wisdom to conceal the revelation of the truth there when discovered
or wisdom to trust God when it becomes a real issue for everyone?
Wisdom...humm?

Okay, so we press on.
Next God tells us here in the verse:

If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast

Insight, when all other answers can not make clear sense we require insight.
I believe it is God who chooses to reveal a matter as He is the high King.
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and it is the honor of kings to seek it out.
Insight, as in prophecy, a revelation given by the Holy Spirit for a purpose
the purpose being? For thoses who WILL be here and need to know what it will actually be when it comes.
If God has chosen to reveal this matter and provides us with such insight into it
then we will have the wisdom to see it exactally for what it is.

When I first was given insight into the truth concerning the events preceding Christ's coming
I sensed a prompting by God's Spirit to seek it out no matter the cost.

I believe that the truth here can be very simple as it is complex to those who will stumble from it.

let him calculate the number of the beast

Could this statement above be, not a command, but a clue?
Not that one should attempt to make a calculation or math solution
but that those who are given God's wisdom and God's insight
would be able to see that the message is a clue, a key to it's understanding
insight into what the mark of the beast will be,
a computation or computer action, plainly in itself.
An established computer action.
Wisdom, insight, an action "let him calculate" or let his mark compute,
a computer image of a man's number, or the numbers of men. (or women and so on)
I believe that it is not a calculation of the Beast's number or name
but that it is of those who are of the beast whose number is of their name
or will be for their name as assigned to them as citizens inside of the beast empire.
I believe that when it does come, those who are wise in Christ will as Daniel states:

Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,
and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

----

None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Daniel 12

The wise will have insight,
and lead many to the knowledge of the truth
to righteousness in Christ Jesus.
Therefore those whom He has chosen will shine like the stars
they will be delivered from the tribulation,
and will be transformed into His Kingdom of Light

[WalkingWithJesus]

The way I understand it is as follows:

1. God is saying that the number of the beast is a number, that number is 666.
2. If what the other articles say is true, then Allah may be the beast, since his number (a man) is 666.
3. So then, like God asked to measure the kingdom of heaven, he asks us to calculate (or count) the number of the beast, which is basically the followers of Allah.

Just thinking out loud there. I do not have the answer, but it makes you wonder. Since many Muslims who follow Allah, wear a head band, which has the Allah symbol (666) on it (The mark of the beast).

Plus the fact that God mentions beheading and dying by the sword, which is so prevalent in Islam.

Anyway, that is my 2 cents. I still believe Allah is Satan and Muhammad is the false prophet. But that is just me.

[mark s]

It doesn't make any sense to me for someone to, willy nilly, insert Arabic symbols/words rotated on their side, no less, in the middle of a text that is written all in Greek, to a Greek speaking audience, at the time, without any explanation that this particular "bit" was meant to be Arabic (on it's side), but yet looks exactly like the Greek symbols that everyone was already familiar with.

This has a lot to do with why I don't think this is supposed to be Arabic (on it's side). It looks like Greek, and is in a Greek text. So . . . why isn't it Greek? I think it is.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[jgilberAZ]

It doesn't make any sense to me for someone to, willy nilly, insert Arabic symbols/words rotated on their side, no less, in the middle of a text that is written all in Greek, to a Greek speaking audience, at the time, without any explanation that this particular "bit" was meant to be Arabic (on it's side), but yet looks exactly like the Greek symbols that everyone was already familiar with.

This has a lot to do with why I don't think this is supposed to be Arabic (on it's side). It looks like Greek, and is in a Greek text. So . . . why isn't it Greek? I think it is.

Love in Christ,
Mark

And, that's a very reasonable position to take. I don't think anyone would argue that to be unreasonable.

That said, however ...

What if John faithfully reproduced what he saw? What if they WERE the Arabic script we see so prevalent on headbands, armbands, flags, etc. ? Would it be beyond the bounds of credulity to think that a future scribe would have turned the symbols "right-side-up" as he perceived they should be? I understand what I'm saying. I understand I'm saying that the original text may have been altered by a later scribe. We know that it has happened elsewhere, do we not? We know that certain texts have changed. We know that some text has been added by later scribes, do we not? I don't believe it is unreasonable to state that this is at least a possibility in reference to these symbols. And yes, they ARE symbols. They are not words. They are either Greek symbols, or Arabic symbols. They are not words. What if God's preservation of His Word means that in a time in which we need to be able to identify the symbols, He has presented us with the actual (original) meaning of the symbols? A meaning, by the way, that would have been of little value to those in the hundreds of generations prior to those who face the beast.

I don't know which is correct.

I'm just saying I find both positions "reasonable." Especially in light of all the other beast-like qualities of Islam.

- Jeff

[watching]

In the video, Walid Shoebat said that the text does not actually say "hand" and that it only says "right."

That is not true:

Revelation 13:16 (King James Version)

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Lexicon / Concordance for Revelation 13:16

13:16 καὶ ποιεῖ πάντας τοὺς μικροὺς καὶ τοὺς μεγάλους καὶ τοὺς πλουσίους καὶ τοὺς πτωχούς καὶ τοὺς ἐλευθέρους καὶ τοὺς δούλους ἵνα δώσῃ αὐτοῖς χάραγμα ἐπὶ τῆς χειρὸς αὐτῶν τῆς δεξιᾶς ἢ ἐπὶ τῶν μέτωπων αὐτῶν

See definition and examples here:

http://concordance.biblos.com/cheiros.htm

Also, the word translated as "mark" is the word χάραγμα:

Revelation 13:16 (King James Version)

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Lexicon / Concordance for Revelation 13:16

13:16 καὶ ποιεῖ πάντας τοὺς μικροὺς καὶ τοὺς μεγάλους καὶ τοὺς πλουσίους καὶ τοὺς πτωχούς καὶ τοὺς ἐλευθέρους καὶ τοὺς δούλους ἵνα δώσῃ αὐτοῖς χάραγμα ἐπὶ τῆς χειρὸς αὐτῶν τῆς δεξιᾶς ἢ ἐπὶ τῶν μέτωπων αὐτῶν

Here is the definition:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5480&t=KJV

As you can see from the root word/etymology section, it comes from the word:

χάραξ (G5482)

which means 1) a pale or stake, palisade

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5482&t=KJV

And both of these words come from the word:

χαρασσω which means to engrave (see Thayer's lexicon help):

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5480&t=KJV

Also see root word/etymology for χάραξ

From charasso (to sharpen to a point, akin to γράφω (G1125) through the idea of scratching)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5482&t=KJV

It doesn't seem to me that a "badge" in the form of an arm band, would require a sharp point, as this word appears to indicate.

[Tevye]

Excellent post.

Made with a sharp point... sounds like a tatoo engraved into, or onto the skin.

As you can see from the root word/etymology section, it comes from the word:

χάραξ (G5482)

which means 1) a pale or stake, palisade

pal·i·sade   
–noun
1.a fence of pales or stakes set firmly in the ground, as for enclosure or defense.

Something like...

...a UPC barcode?

Mary Stewart Relfe, The New Money System 666, 1982

"The Prophet John identified this Cashless System of Commerce 1900 years ago as one in which business would be transacted with a 'Mark' and a Number; the Mark will obviously be a Bar Code; the Number will be '666;' the combination of the two, about which you will read in this book, will be an integral part of the '666 System'. . .
RECEIVING OF ONE'S OWN VOLITION THE MARK (BRAND) IN THE RIGHT HAND OR FOREHEAD; which I believe will be a Bar Code facsimile incorporating a concealed use of '666,' unintelligible to the eye,. . ." Mary Stewart Relfe, The New Money System 666, 1982, pp. xii, 206)

A bizarre coincident? concerning the barcode is the Greek word charagma translated 'mark' in Revelation.

Here's how Robert Van Kampen, in The Sign describes this coincident:

"It is interesting to note that the Greek word translated 'mark' is charagma which comes from the Greek word charax, which means 'a palisade, like a picket fence.' When one realizes that this specific word was used back in the first century, and we see today the use of the computer-related bar code,
we find the possibilities becoming more than a reality in our day and age."
(Robert Van Kampen, The Sign, 1992, p. 231)

Here's the explanation: The Greek "root" word for charagma (translated "mark") is charax. One of the meanings of charax is "a palisade" which is like a "picket fence, or vertical lines". The "idea" is, the reason John used the Greek word charagma, rather than stigma, etc., is because he was describing a 'mark' with vertical lines — a "bar code".

Link

Intriguing.
Mary Stewart Relfe wrote that 28 years ago,
and Mr. Van Kampen just 18 years past
so here were are today, and it seems like we're
just a few moments from it's impending institution.

[GodsStudent]

[jgilberAZ]

.
I know I keep defending this, so it must appear as if I strongly support the argument. Trust me, I don't STRONGLY support it. But, I do see some merit in it. My belief that Islam is the beast does NOT come from 666=bismallah. There is plenty of other evidence to me besides this.

That said, I do see merit in the argument.

Charagma ...

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5480.htm

stamp, mark.

From the same as charax; a scratch or etching, i.e. Stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue) -- graven, mark.

see GREEK charax

emphasis mine

Right hand ...

dexios = right

cheir = arm and hand

Just look at this google search result:

[url]http://www.google.com/search?q="χείρ"+"arm+and+hand"[/url]

In popular depictions of the crucifixion of Jesus (possibly because in translations of the wounds are described as being "in his hands"), Jesus is shown with nails in his hands. But in Greek the word "χείρ", usually translated as "hand", referred to arm and hand together, and to denote the hand as distinct from the arm some other word was added, as "ἄκρην οὔτασε χεῖρα" (he wounded the end of the χείρ, i.e., he wounded her hand).

[watching]

Charagma ...

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5480.htm

stamp, mark.

From the same as charax; a scratch or etching, i.e. Stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue) -- graven, mark.

see GREEK charax

emphasis mine

Charagma ...

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5480.htm

stamp, mark.

From the same as charax; a scratch or etching, i.e. Stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue) -- graven, mark.

see GREEK charax

emphasis mine

[watching]

Lexicon Results
Strong's G1023 - brachiōn
βραχίων

Transliteration

brachiōn


Pronunciation

brä-khē'-ōn (Key)

Part of Speech

masculine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

Properly, comparative of βραχύς (G1024), but apparently in the sense of brasso (to wield)

TDNT Reference

1:639,110


Vines

View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) the arm

a) the arm of God is a Hebrew idiom for the might and the power of God

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1023&t=KJV

[good4u]

"In the Name of Allah" is not the full phrasing for 666. Without going into elaborate detail it could read, "In the Name of Allah Jihad" which of course, is the battle cry of every Islamic terrorist on earth.

[watching]

Hi jgilberAZ,

I'm not sure if you understood the point of my last two posts, but according to the definition you provided:

Charagma ...

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5480.htm

stamp, mark.

From the same as charax; a scratch or etching, i.e. Stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue) -- graven, mark.

see GREEK charax

emphasis mine

Charagma can be used as a badge of servitude (among other things stated in the definition); it is not a badge.


..........................................................................................................................................


Also, although the word χειρὸς can include the forearm, it does not mean "arm."

There is another word for "arm" which includes the upper arm and that word is "βραχίων," which is why I posted the definition for it above.

It is the same word from which we get the word "brachium."

See definition:

bra·chi·um
   /ˈbreɪkiəm, ˈbræki-/ Show Spelled[brey-kee-uhm, brak-ee-] Show IPA
–noun, plural bra·chi·a  /ˈbreɪkiə, ˈbrækiə/ Show Spelled[brey-kee-uh, brak-ee-uh] Show IPA.
1.
Anatomy . the part of the arm from the shoulder to the elbow.
2.
the corresponding part of any limb, as in the wing of a bird.
3.
an armlike part or process.

brachium bra·chi·um (brā'kē-əm, brāk'ē-)
n. pl. bra·chi·a (brā'kē-ə, brāk'ē-ə)

1.

The arm, especially between the shoulder and the elbow.
2.

An armlike structure.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brachia

[Mttw633]

Rev 13:18 HereG5602 isG2076 wisdom.G4678 Let him that hathG2192 understandingG3563 countG5585 theG3588 numberG706 of theG3588 beast:G2342 forG1063 it isG2076 the numberG706 of a man;G444 andG2532 hisG848 numberG706 is Six hundred threescore and six.G551

wisdom
G4678
σοφία
sophia
sof-ee'-ah
From G4680; wisdom (higher or lower, worldly or spiritual): - wisdom.

understanding
G3563
νοῦς
nous
nooce
Probably from the base of G1097; the intellect, that is, mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication meaning: - mind, understanding. Compare G5590.

beast
G2342
θηρίον
thērion
thay-ree'-on
Diminutive from the same as G2339; a dangerous animal: - (venomous, wild) beast.

man
G444
ἄνθρωπος
anthrōpos
anth'-ro-pos
From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.


From what I understand is that we can derive this wisdom from one of two places: it's either:

wordly or spiritual as taught either by divine source or human understanding. I have learned that there's a certain pagan practice is the use of magic squares to find the sum: 666 being the sum of the magic square for the sun god Apollo; aka the beast from the bottomless pit. It says in this verse that it is in fact THE BEAST (the number of) which is the number [of a countanance] of a man.

11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.


This confirms that the beast from the abyss is the beast whose number is 666: Apollo, aka Nimrod/Osiris. Remember the 8th king is from one of the seven previous kings, this fellow comes back.

[I've Seen Angels]

sarcasm on:

......Whatever in the world would Greek letters/symbols be doing in a text that is written all in Greek?


.....I guess when the writer of Revelation decided to insert the word Allah in Arabic script into the Greek text, he must have accidentally made the squiggly mark upright so it looks exactly like the letter Xi (ξ) instead of lying on it's side the way it a similar looking symbol/word would be if it was written in Arabic.

edit: Hey, I just thought of something, maybe it was really supposed to be a "w" and maybe the apostle John was really talking about someone with the middle initial "w."

Maybe I should start a conspiracy theory about that.

......And I guess the fact that it looks exactly like the letter ξ and not so much like the squiggly symbol that should be sideways, was an accident as well.

......I guess it's just as natural for someone to slip in Arabic words or symbols into a text that is written all in Greek, as it is for someone to slip in words that are pronounced with an American accent while they are supposedly speaking with an Arabic accent.

......I guess the fact that the scripture in Revelation says:

e
Revelation 13:18 (King James Version)

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

it really meant "symbol for Islam in Arabic, and two words written in Arabic" and not really "number."

sarcasm off

Btw, I wouldn't call the fact that in ancient Greece they used the letters of the alphabet and a few other symbols in order to calculate with, "Gematria," since you can't very well calculate with entire words written out, and since the Arabic numeral system which is used today for that purpose was not even invented until about 500 A.D>

http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/history/gr_count/gr_count.html
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Counting.htm
http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/greek-alphabet.htm
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/greeks/science/math/numbers.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals

I always wondered what my 666th post would be about.

Edit: Everything written between sarcasm on: and sarcasm off was meant to be sarcastic.

Well, I for one am glad you have an on and off switch...not everybody does!

[good4u]

Let me add something here from Joel Richardson's book (God's War on Terror) that I think has merit here in this discussion and for you to consider. I don't have the book in front of me as I don't wanna go down stairs right now. But in the book about the "Mark" he says that John the Revelator states the mark is on the right hand and forehead of those that belong to the beast, right? Well, Islamic Terror Groups (Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.) wear bands with the bismallah on their forehead and on their right arms (hands?) and that is something distinctive that John clearly noticed enough to include it in Revelation and again gives an identifying mark as to who belongs to the Beast kingdom. This has great significance during the last days before Jesus returns....somthing you should consider.

No other significant body of ppl or groups have such an identifying symbol right now as belong to the beast kingdom. It should make you stop and give pause as to how close we really are to the end.

[daffodyllady]

good4u, that is a valuable observation, imho.

And I've Seen Angels, LOL!

[Mttw633]

And the word John used for man is not the usual word for man, it's manfaced or the countenance of man. This is also proof that the beast will use a body of a man, and the false prophet will breath the spirit of Apollo into this man. (man who dies who had 42 months to speak proud words and blasphemies.)

[watching]

good4u,

Did you not see my post above that explains how the word for mark χάραγμα (pronounced charagma) comes from the word χαρασσω? (see Thayer's Lexicon help)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5480&t=KJV

Here is the definition for χαρασσω:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XQMtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1369&lpg=PA1369&dq=%CF%87%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89&source=bl&ots=0mnQbNRHqm&sig=W1seVtarv7Ll2oMK2VNnaAA6zXA&hl=en&ei=ne6QTKCaIYH6sAPotriyDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%CF%87%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%83%CF%89&f=false

It doesn't seem to me that this is referring to a band tied around someone's arm.

Does it to you?


........................................................................................................................................


Also, speaking of arm, did you not see my post, regarding the meaning of

χειρὸς (hand/hand and forearm)

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5495.htm

versus

βραχίων (arm/especially upper arm)

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1023.htm

????????

[good4u]

You have to read the book, Watching. It explains it very carefully and lays it out clearly. I may not do it justice and you may not agree with it. Walid Shoebat (a former PLO terrorist now evangelical Christian believer) wrote this chapter as he grew up in Palestine as a terrorist in the West Bank fighting Israel. He should know what he is talking about, I think. However, Joel Richardson (co-author) does not agree with Walid (his friend) on this point in the book as I have heard him say this at last year's conference. But....it doesn't mean that Walid is necessarily wrong. We will have to see as time progresses.

As far as whether it is the "hand" or "arm" is debatable as well. I think it depends on how the original manuscripts state it, not any other lexicon. Walid has used the oldest and most reliable manuscirpts available to formulate his position according to him. Judge for yourself.

I love going to Joel's conferences...I have learned the most about understanding prophecy from this young man whom I feel God has chosen to use to help those who watch for His return.

[watching]

Hi good4u,

To be honest, I don't listen to any of them, or read any of their books.

There are just to many people out there trying to put their own spin own things, and then trying to sell it to the public.

Psalm 118:8 (King James Version)

8It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

[good4u]

Well, for me it has been a progressive revelation and I am selective at what I think is relevant and consistent w/Scripture. I find that if that is so, I will listen further. I am afraid then you do yourself a disservice as far as eschatology is concerned and will miss relevant info. It is your choice, but that is not for me. Eschatology is challenging enough.

You are like some poster I ran across on another board who dogmatically and proudly insisted that he doesn't believe in "newspaper theology" in other words, he doesn't follow current events. I think he will miss the train as it has already pulled out of the station. Just sayin'...

[watching]

Hi good4u,

Well, for me it has been a progressive revelation and I am selective at what I think is relevant and consistent w/Scripture.

I've already shown you why this claim is inconsistent with scripture, but yet you still want to believe it.

I am afraid then you do yourself a disservice as far as eschatology is concerned and will miss relevant info

Why would I be doing myself a disservice by not reading a book that is written by someone making false claims?

I think he will miss the train as it has already pulled out of the station. Just sayin'...

I don't know which train you're talking about.

But in any case, let me just say this...........

Everyone seems to think they are on the right train, yet everyone seems to be on a different train.

Who's to say who's on the right train?

[good4u]

Exchange of ideas is fine. I think there is room for all of it in the pale of Christian Orthodoxy. God deliberately did not give us everything ahead of time so that we will trust him as his progressive revelation unfolds as it seems to be doing. As prophecy students refine their views as events unfold and as the time drawer ever nearer the Scripture will become clearer until it is obvious what is happening. Then those who watch should be able to come together to explain and teach it to those who are not informed so that they will be prepared as well.

If we disagree about Islam and you disagree about the premise of the book, I am okay with it. For it has not come to pass yet. So of course you do not believe it but it doesn't mean it is false. But if you had an interest, it was there for you to review. That's all. It is your choice.

The train analogy was merely an expression.

Peace.

[watching]

Hi good4u,

Peace to you as well.

p.s. I'm sure, that, most likely, Islam/Middle East Countries will play some kind of role in the end times. I'm just not sure what, when, where, or how.

[daffodyllady]

Hey, even if it might not be spot-on, I am glad for the info. After all, what all can we know for sure at this point? We need to keep our eyes and ears open, and be informed of all the possibilities, imho.

It is good to know these things, because it just might be what lies around the curve.
Many people could be deceived by the modern argument that "allah" is another valid name for God, and would think, "What could be wrong with wearing 'in the name of God' on my forehead or wrist?" Especially if that meant safety and food. According to modern christianity, God wants you to be healthy, clothed and fed! Surely God would want this program to go into effect; to require all to wear the name of God, and all would be fed and healthy. Peace on earth to men of good will, as they say it.

As I said, we need to keep our eyes open and simply watch. It's part of being prepared against the Enemy.

[good4u]

But the object of what were watching is what is relevent in prophecy, is it not? Yes, by all means we are to trust the LORD and not men. BUT...we all must remember that God also may choose to work thru men to accomplish his purposes and that is the point of watching current events as they relate to Scripture which is what I should have said to watching. If the current events do not line up with prophecy, then it is not prophecy-related. However, if indeed those events DO line up closely with Scripture then God Himself is giving his watchmen his "sign" that events are lining up as he said they would and we must take notice, prepare others as well as ourselves for the end of this age.

I see biblical prophecy as progressive revelation and God Himself has given us all we need to know in his Word to understand the times in which we are living. Personally, I feel we are close to the end. How close is the question. Are we in the final stage, ummm...no, not as I see it. But surely as I see the genesis of the beast kingdom gestating around tiny Israel, the marginalization of biblical Christianity and the smearing of bible-believing Christians the end could surely be in my lifetime, if God grants me such a privilege. These are signs that confirm to me that we truly are close to the end and the millenial kingdom is not far from us!

[watching]

Hi jgilberAZ,

I was just looking over this thread and I'm surprised that I did not respond to the following comment:

Right hand ...dexios = right cheir = arm and hand

Just look at this google search result:[url]http://www.google.com/search?q="χείρ"+"arm+and+hand"[/url]In popular

depictions of the crucifixion of Jesus (possibly because in translations of the wounds are described as being "in his hands"), Jesus is shown with nails in his hands. But in Greek the word "χείρ", usually translated as "hand", referred to arm and hand together, and to denote the hand as distinct from the arm some other word was added, as "ἄκρην οὔτασε χεῖρα" (he wounded the end of the χείρ, i.e., he wounded her hand).

But, first I just want to clarify a few things concerning "arm" versus "hand" in the Greek.

In all honesty, it is true that a lot of Greek people say "hand" when they really mean "arm."

In fact, "arm" is even defined as "hand" (cheiros) in some dictionaries. (edit: as one of the definitions....the main definition would be "brachionas")

But, this is just out of pure laziness, in my opinion. That's because using the word "arm" (brachionas), apparently just sounds too sophisticated. So, most people opt for the more common word, which is hand (heiros).

BUT, that is not because there is no word for "arm" because there is definitely a distinct word for arm. And it is used throughout scripture, as you can see from the link that I had posted above.

And I highly doubt, that the apostle John would have taken the lazy way out, and used the vernacular "hand" instead of "arm," when there is a specific word for "arm" that exists. And as I said, it is used frequently throughout scripture. And as you know, scripture is very precise in the words that were chosen.

This is not the case, however, with the word "leg."

In Greek, the word "leg" (podi) also means "foot." There is no distinction.

I know this may all sound a little crazy. But just take a look at the Greek-English dictionary, and enter in the words: leg, arm, hand, or foot, and check for yourself.

leg = πόδι
podi

arm = βραχίονας
brachionas

hand = χέρι,

foot = πόδι

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon



Now, getting to your comments above.

As I said, I'm surprised I didn't comment on this before. Because this is something that I had looked into, some time ago. Because I was trouble by the fact that the scripture clearly states that when Jesus was crucifed, the nails were driven into the Lord's hands. But yet when you look at the image on the Shroud of Turin, the wound appears to be on His wrists.

See an example of scripture below:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=20&t=KJV#conc/27

Well, after doing a considerable amount of research on this, I discovered that a certain doctor had done experiments on this. And, as it turned out, there is a clear passage from the palm of the hand through to the wrist area on the back of the hand. And this is most likely how the nails were driven into the Lord's hand, because it also happens to be the most secure way to do a crucifixion.

I will try to look for the link.

But, in any case, the nails were pierced into the palms of Jesus "hands" just as is stated in the scripture, not in His wrists, although the nails did exit through the wrist.

Also, technically, the arm goes all the way down to the wrist. That is why a bracelet is called a "bracelet" and
not a "handlet."

This is true also in the Greek.

See Greek English dictionary and enter the word bracelet. And you will see that it has the same root as the Greek word for "arm."

bracelet = βραχιόλι
brachioli

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

[laney]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2KHIrQFpS


getting closer all the time!

[Tevye]

...why not have an active tattoo that can continuously track...?
-
He also hopes to lengthen the time the tattoo’s antenna
which can wash off with water, will stay on the body.