WHO are the Jews waiting for?

[ampersand]

I have a question for you all: WHO are the (modern) Jews waiting for?

"Well, duh, ampersand, they're waiting for the Messiah."

Yes, I know they're waiting for a messiah, but it is CLEAR that their messiah is not The Messiah. If it was the same messiah, they would have believed on Jesus Christ. It appears to me that they are not waiting for someone to save them from their sins. They are looking for someone who is clearly different than He Who was foretold by God Himself through the prophets.

I don't have many Jewish connections, and I've had a difficult time understanding who exactly they're waiting for. What is their messiah like? What do they see him doing? What are his attributes?

Please, don't post mere opinions. I have plenty of those. If anyone has any primary sources (from conversations with Jews, perhaps writings by Jewish leaders, etc) about who exactly the Jews are waiting for, I would be thrilled to hear about them. If you can show with Scripture who the Jews were waiting for "back in the day" that would be useful too, but I am really interested in what Jews are saying today as well.

Thank you.

[LONGINGFORHOME]

ampersand,
I have quite a few jewish friends living in the land today, they always send me ecards from this site:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... shiach.htm
I have provided the link to their section on the messiah/ moshiac, this is also what I found on their site.
http://www.chabad.org/search/results.as ... +ben+Yosef

I have sent an email to one of my friends there also, he probably won't respond till tomorrow, as they are 9 hours ahead of me, and he has to work tomorrow early.

[Abiding in His Word]

The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:

* Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
* Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
* Ezekiel 38:16
* Hosea 3:4-3:5
* Micah 4
* Zephaniah 3:9
* Zechariah 14:9
* Daniel 10:14

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

[plalgum]

The Mashiach
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.


Hello Abiding,
I snipped this out of the link that you posted,and could not help notice the comparrisons to someone that we are expecting.

[ampersand]

Thank you, Abiding, LongingForHome, and plalgum.

Here is what I have worked through over the last week. If you see any inconsistency or flaw, please alert me! I think it is crucial to know WHO Judaism is waiting for and WHO believers have always waited for! I believe they are different, and I believe that our acknowledgement of this truth will help us understand prophecy (and salvation!) more deeply. It helps me, anyway, and I only look to increase your faith and knowledge of the Truth! Therefore, let me reiterate, please alert me to anything that is just wrong! Thank you, believers.


I. The messiah that Judaism is waiting for.

1. The messiah that Judaism is waiting for is:
   
   1. A direct descendant of David.
      
   2. A true Jewish king.
      
   3. A dynamic world leader.
      
   4. Proficient in both the written and oral Torah traditions.
      
   5. Entirely human - there is NOTHING divine about him. He is NOT God (not even the "G-d" that Judaism worships).
   
   
2. Judaism expects its messiah to:
   
   1. Rebuild the temple and restore temple worship.
      
   2. Restore Jerusalem.
      
   3. Gather in the exiles.
      
   4. Establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government.
      
   5. Cause all mankind to know the truth, worship one god, and live a more spiritual and moral way of life.
3. Judaism claims that the appearance of its messiah can be precipitated by:
   
   1. Human acts of goodness and kindness.
      
   2. Learning about the messiah and yearning for his coming.
   
   These are the things that Judaism is waiting for. This is the messiah Jews say they will follow. We should pay attention to this when trying to understand exactly who they will follow in the last days. (Who will be the Antichrist?)

II. Judaism is a false religion.

1. The implication from reading who the Jews are waiting for is that: Judaism is a false religion - as false as Islam, Mormonism, etc. Jews who follow Judaism are NOT worshiping the God of the Scriptures "in spirit and in truth," and He accepts no other worship. Regardless of the reasons for this sad state of affairs (national sin even before the captivity, God's delusion on them, etc), Judaism has rejected God. What trips many people up (including me) is that Judaism includes a bit of truth about God in their declarations, so on the surface it appears they worship the same God as believers. But isn't that what most false religions/cults do? - they mix a bit of truth into their porridge of lies? Therefore, I conclude that their "G-d" is NOT the God of the Scriptures.
   
   
2. The apostle Paul writes:
   
   1. That he was "exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers." [Gal. 1]
      
   2. That he was "before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief." [ 1 Tim. 1]
      
   3. That he was "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." [Phil. 3]
      
   4. That "until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." [Rom. 5]
   
   Does it seem that (a), (b) and (c) contradict each other? They don't. Paul was "blameless according to the Law," but what he failed to see is that the Law does not give righteousness before God. On the contrary, it was given to prove our unrighteousness (yes "ours" too) and apply guilt to us because of that unrighteousness [Galatians and Romans].
   
   Paul clearly states that in his keeping the Law, he was in a state of unbelief. So it was possible to keep the Law, and still be an unbeliever. And I reason that the unbelieving Jew of the Old and New Testament is the same: he does not believe in the Messiah of the Scriptures! He is not waiting for redemption, because he does not believe God's revelation given to him through the prophets. That is how Paul could be at the same time righteous (by the law) and a blasphemer (blaspheming against God, I presume).
   
   
3. Salvation in the OT AND the NT is entirely by faith. Those that had faith were saved and not practicing Judaism, and those that had not faith were practicing Judaism. Do you want to see OT faith?
   
   
   1. Look at Simeon [Luke 2]. He says:
      
      ...mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
      
      Do you see the difference between Simeon and Paul (before conversion)? One was waiting for (believing in) a Redeemer, the other wasn't!
      
      
   2. Look at Job [Job 19]. He was waiting for a Redeemer before there was even a Law given! He says:
      
      For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
      
      What a beautiful saying!
      
      
   3. Look at all those mentioned in Hebrews 11:
      
      These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them , and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
      
      What another beautiful text!
   
   Old Testament believers believed, and this is what set them apart from unbelievers. Simple isn't it?

III. Why the looong post, &mpersand?

1. Just because God showed me recently in Scripture that He has always imputed righteousness to one's account by faith alone. And this faith is only saving faith when it is faith in the God of the Scriptures and His complete revelation.
   
   
2. I also wanted to make it clear that Jews practicing Juidaism (a tradition taught them by their fathers) are not saved, because they have not saving faith! They are not waiting for (believing in) the Messiah, but a messiah. They are not waiting for (believing in) a Redeemer. They are waiting for (believing in) earthly restoration. They are waiting for (believing in) righteousness before God through keeping the Law.
   
   
3. I believe that our acknowledgement of this idea will help us understand prophecy (and salvation!) more deeply. We should understand who Judaism is waiting for when speaking about prophecy and important players like the Antichrist.
   
   
4. The difficulty in all of this for me is: it's tough to come right out and say that Judaism has rejected God. It's difficult to say that "God's people have rejected God." But God said this repeatedly in the Old Testament through the prophets. It's just that in worshiping Baal, Ashtharoth, etc, apostate Jews called their god by another name. Now, however, Judaism calls its god by the name "G-d" and claims that he is the same as the God of the Old Testament. But the fact remains: they have rejected the One who loved them and chose them. (now the restoration of God's people is a different topic, but equally challenging and beautiful!)

IV. Farewell.

Thanks for reading, and more importantly, thanks for pointing out error and correcting it! I have tried to make it easy on your reading and correcting by using this outline form.

May HE keep you in the faith! (And He promises He will!),

&


PS. I understand that using Judaism as the subject of many of my sentences is grammatically incorrect, but I couldn't think of anything better. I wanted to distinguish believing and unbelieving Jews, but I also wanted to keep intact the understanding that unbelieving Jews are those that practice Judaism. Though in fact, it just occurred to me that there is a third category: those that are both unbelievers and non-practitioners of Judaism. Well in this case, they are like a Gentile (!), no?

V. References.

1. God's Word (as found in the KJV)
2. jewsforjudaism.org
3. jewfaq.org
4. chabad.org

[Pretzelogical]

Thank you, & for stating your findings and your heart clearly! These are things I think about a great deal so it was refreshing to read your post.

I have a Jewish friend I grew up with who loves the God of the Old Testament, believes Jesus was a prophet to the Jews and gentiles, and that we are all to prepare the way for the coming Messiah by repenting. She can see how Jesus coming again would prove He was the Messiah. She has no problem with the "wait and see" approach as the Messiah does not save from sins, God does, in her mind. Because the Jews refused to repent is why Jesus has to come again, is her thinking on it. What she won't believe is that Jesus is God. That is the whole point, of course. She also has zero tolerance for unrepentant Jews who think God is pleased with rituals that prove they are the chosen people. She is not ready for the understanding that Jesus, the Messiah, is God. To think that a man can be God is sinful thinking, in her opinion.

I have to go back to the arugment that Jesus could not just be a moral teacher, since it would be immoral for Jesus to say He was God. SInce Jesus said He is God, He is either God or a deceiver, but He can't just be a moral teacher since He said He was God. For the AC to demand to be worshiped as God - that would be a huge stumbling block to her - so I pray she would not be deceived, but would be one of the 144,000 lead to safety.

Now on the other hand, I know Jews who are very pro-Israel, militant, etc. as you describe above. They are not waiting on salvation, forgiveness, or God to accept them since they believe they are chosen people of God already, and they deserve the allegience of all the world - all they need is just the right leader! I am thinking that they are what Rev 2 & 3 call "Jews who are not Jews at all, but of the synagogue of Satan".

Three types of Jews:
1. Jews who believe they are accepted by God because they are chosen by Him for the purpose of leadership in the world - synagogue of Satan
2. Jews who believe repentance, keeping of the law of loving others, and trusting in a coming Messiah is all that God requires to be accepted by Him.
3. Jews who believe Jesus is God, the Promised Messiah, the King of kings.

Scripture is clear that a remnant of Jews (category 2) will be saved. The two witnesses (category 3 Jews) will be effective in bringing category 2 Jews to Christ. We see Israel and Judah restored into the one Branch, the woman Israel giving birth to offspring - born again Jews (Rev. 11) the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel. Since people all over the world will be able to see the two faithful witnesses, it fits that they would be Jews teaching the Jews all over the world. We have the two Jewish churches of Symrna and Philadelphia in Revelation as the two faithful lampstands in whom Jesus has no complaint. They are the two olive trees and lampstands of Zechariah, and then later in Zechariah we see Judah and Israel joined again.

My recent research says the nation of Israel was formed by categoy 1 Jews. The nation is run by category 1 Jews. The AC would work well with category 1 Jews, as you said. Interestingly, Henry Ford (Yes, Model T Ford & the assembly line) writing after WWI believed the whole world was being run by category 1 Jews, and wrote of his findings in order to wake-up the loving category 2 Jews of the dangers. Before WWII, Ford could see how the category 1 Jews would cause anti-semitism to get out of hand to the point of persecution of the category 2 Jews. Ford was right, as WWII history proves. So sad.

Henry Ford wrote 80 daily newspaper articles before he was closed down and a statement was issued saying he lied in the articles. On his deathbed, Henry Ford said he did not write the denial, but that every word he wrote was true. I have read through 61 (three volumes) of Henry Ford's writings. Very disturbing to read:
http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Henr ... /index.htm

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi Pretzelogical,

Have you considered pointing your Jewish friend to the 300-some prophecies that Jesus fulfilled when He arrived? They definitely reflect the fact that He was the Messiah. Check them out here

[ampersand]

...
Three types of Jews:
1. Jews who believe they are accepted by God because they are chosen by Him for the purpose of leadership in the world - synagogue of Satan
2. Jews who believe repentance, keeping of the law of loving others, and trusting in a coming Messiah is all that God requires to be accepted by Him.
3. Jews who believe Jesus is God, the Promised Messiah, the King of kings.

...

Categorizing Jews

1. I also think there are three types of Jews.
   
   
   1. Everyone not in groups 2 and 3.
   2. Those that practice Judaism.
   3. Believers.
   
   
   In regards to salvation, though, there are only two groups: Group 3 is saved. Groups 1 and 2 are not, and are therefore both of the synagogue of Satan. Both are apostate. Would you agree? Also, would you agree that our three groups are the same?
   
   
2. Scripture makes it clear that a remnant will be saved, but why do you only think that it will be a remnant from Group 2? There are some saved already (Group 3) - I believe they can rightfully be called a "remnant." In the end, God can certainly work faith in a Jew who belongs to any of these groups. Therefore, it would probably be wise not to rest in the assumption that anyone in group 2 will probably be saved in the end, because right now, they are no better than group 1 and are certainly worse off than group 3. Would you agree?
   
   
3. Finally, I know that in some other threads, you have posted about how some Jews say that Zionism is different from Judaism. I don't know if the majority of Jews make a distinction, but it can only mean that Zionists fall into Group 1. Right?

Does it really matter?

1. The whole point of my study was not to categorize Jews, but to really understand WHO IS SAVED, right now and in Old Testament times, according to Scripture. I believe that many people witnessing to Jews practicing Judaism tell them that they're alright, they're obeying the Old Testament, but they lack one thing: believe on Jesus. And I just wanted to show that the problem is deeper: they are NOT worshipping the God of the Old Testament. They have made themselves a G-d that is different. This may influence our witnessing in a manner that will be more God-honoring and less man-pleasing.
   
   
2. It is entirely heartbreaking to me as I write these things, but I believe that thinking the same thing God says is better than sugar-coating the situation. God's glory is at stake. I hope you understand what I am writing. I'm not accusing anyone, because quite frankly, I don't know you. I'm just writing what's on my heart. It's difficult to express sometimes.

Peace,
&

[Pretzelogical]

Abiding, was there a link? My peace-loving Jewish friend sees these prophecies as saying Jesus was a great prophet, not God. Funny thing when we were kids, she was the one who taught me there is an anti-Christ. haha She continues to teach Old Testament Hebrew at Christian women's groups, enjoys worshiping in Christian worship services, but to her understanding, a man who is God Almighty would not allow the suffering to continue after His arrival. She knows I believe that is true of when Jesus comes again. She also cannot imagine her loving God turning anyone away if they repent and obey Him. I am looking for an Old Testament passage that commands us to believe in His Son; would love your help!

& - we agree. Zionist are in the first category. These Jews are sometimes easier to bring to the light than the relgious ones because they have learned how unpeaceful it is to pursue peace by power and might, instead of by His Spirit. Most category 2 Jews of great faith are the most difficult to come to an understanding that Jesus is the God who saves.

I believe Zechariah, Isaiah, Revelation and elsewhere in scripture describe how group three (the churches of Symrna and Philadelphia) will bring the repentant Jews to saving faith in Christ Jesus during the tribulation while the Gentile churches are trampled for not being salt and light (apostasy).

I agree with what Pastor Stephen Amy teaches about the two witnesses, and that mankind is halfway through the seventy weeks. Stephen is Lambslave at this site. He was saved while a memeber at John MacArthur's church. Here is Shephen's website teaching about the two witnesses, the two olive trees, the two lampstands that stand, the two faithful churches of Symrna and Philadelphia, the 144,000 all being the same thing.
http://expressright.com/wits.aspx

I have studied it thoroughly and find it is key in understanding the chronology of the book of Revelation. (Abiding does not agree with Stephen and I, so she can give you another view.) How I found Stephen is his website came up when I was researching something else, and I clicked on it. I was amazed that he wrote of how I thought the scriptures read, but I had been taught differently. And he taught so much more based on these few things the LORD had shown me already. What a blessing to find him! I could never vallidate the standard teachings throughout the scriptures. Stephen's teachings on the two witnesses are clearly validated through the scriptures. God's word is so amazing! Stephen answered all my questions I sent through email. Then he was sweet enough to come to this website when he could. As his health is failing, it became easier to talk on the phone. Then it became easier for my husband and I to just get on an airplane and go see him. haha Worshiping with his lovely wife, their wonderful friends and meeting the familiy was a special time of growing for us, indeed! Stephen longs to worship in truth, and His book is about the theme of worshiping through Revelation. We were able to spend hour after hour pouring through the word together in the sweeting fellowship. Please pray for Stephen and Sonja to be relieved of their terrible health problems. Amen!

Obviously, I thank God for Stephen's insight and dedication to translate the new Testament in order to get a fuller understanding of the texts. For instance, the two witnesses are called "a body" but our modern translations say "the bodies" because the teaching that the two witnesses are two men requires there to be two bodies. Actually, it is "a body" of believers witnessing all over the world. That is why everyone sees them. (No special technology needed.) Stephen and his assoicates seek a true translation, not a translation that works with a theory that needs to have scriptures support it.

Group one Jews who come to repentance (become group 2 Jews) who believe on the LORD Christ Jesus (group three Jews) will be saved. Hallelujah - what a Savior! IF the LORD should come in our lifetime, of course, I want my friend to be saved and witnessing, and then taken into the wilderness to be cared for by Christ! Perhaps that is why this teaching has come to me, in God's grace. When I pray for Jerusalem, I am praying for the Jews to have Jesus, the true peace that passes understanding. Otherwise, it is praying for the "god of fortresses", the zionism that wants to control the world.
"Peace I leave with you.
My peace I give to you.
I do not give to you
as the world gives.
Do not let your hearts
be troubled,
and do not be afraid."
(I sing the above verses to "Mama's Little Baby Loves Shortnin' Bread" as I am terrible at memorizing scripture, but want it hidden in my heart. The grandkids enjoy it. haha)

Man! ANOTHER long post! UGH!

Enjoying you all!
Be encouraged in His peace!

[Abiding in His Word]

Abiding, was there a link?

It's in the word "here" in my post. Clicking on it will take you to the site.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hey welcome to the board Ampersand

I hiked Ampersand mountain in the Adirondacks a few years ago- it was beautiful.

Anyway as to your post, I would agree that understanding modern Jewish thought helps us understand who would fit the bill for the Antichrist. Throughout the OT scripture foretells how Israel will continue to play the harlot with other nations and their "gods" and how from among them a remnant will emerge that will come to true faith in Christ who will mourn over their sin, who will be protected by God and delivered by Him when He is moved in His compassion to save them from annihilation.

There is a lot to be said for understanding the Jewish culture both current and ancient, doing so lends a whole other level of understanding to the prophetic word.

You may already know of this but the temple institute's site offers many insightful articles about current Jewish thought and also insight into historical biblical practices. Click on link "articles" at the site.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

Thank you for your post.

RT

[ampersand]

Thanks for the warm welcome, RT!

[ampersand]

...Group one Jews who come to repentance (become group 2 Jews) who believe on the LORD Christ Jesus (group three Jews) will be saved...

Hi Pretzelogical, Thanks for your post!

I agree that "Group 1" Jews who come to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved, but I disagree that it means they become "Group 2" Jews. "Group 2" Jews are just as lost as "Group 1" Jews. The evidence of this is the fact that they DO NOT BELIEVE in the Messiah who HAS COME. Would you agree? Their seeming "repentance" is not true repentance which leads to salvation. I submit to you that they are like the Pharisees who came to John's baptism, and he said:

7 ¶But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father

No matter how good they were and how strictly they followed the Law, their religion was a sham, not having faith. Pretz, I am not trying to be "judgemental" about your friend, but it does not matter what she says about the "god" she believes in. If she believed in the revelation of God given in the Old Testament, she would have believed in The Messiah, and would already be saved. Her observing the ordinances of the law, repenting (to whom I know not), supposedly loving the God of the Old Testament is a lie. She is deceived. One claiming to love the God of the Old Testament, but not believing in Him when He actually reveals Himself as the Christ, shows in fact that one does not believe in the God of the Old Testament. For the God of the OT is the God of the NT. He has not changed, and His "method" of justification has not changed.

...Most category 2 Jews of great faith are the most difficult to come to an understanding that Jesus is the God who saves...

It's unfortunately because they do NOT have faith (in the Truth) that it is so difficult to reach them. Would you agree?


I hope I have made myself clear. If not, please ask, and I'll try to clarify. My goals are (1) to spur us to really understand what it means to be saved by faith, and (2) to understand how lost our Jewish friends really are, so that we may be that much more diligent in reaching them with the Truth.

in Christ,
&

[seraph]

Quick question, Ampersand. Is God's Word only found in the KJV?

[ampersand]

Quick answer: no. I was being as precise as possible by giving the reference to the version I use.

[seraph]

Quick answer: no. I was being as precise as possible by giving the reference to the version I use.

Okay then. Many times you can find out a lot about someone's theology if they happen to believe a flawed English translation is the only authoritative copy of God's Word. Glad to hear that's not what you think.

[ampersand]

back to the topic:

I have been studying the matter of faith in the OT and NT some more, and I feel like my original post had too much of my own language in it. It is possible to misunderstand what I was trying to say. Therefore, for clarity, I would like to post the following from the letter to the Hebrews, where God makes a distinction between the believing and unbelieving Jew.

Hebrews 3:
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

in Christ,
&