Speaking in church

Discussion not limited to prophecy.

Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Exit40 on Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:59 pm

Further study and reflection, and I really love a good discussion such as this one that causes me to get deeper in the Word, has led me to this, first regarding the gift of Prophecy... From the Blue Letter Bible, KJV....

1Cr 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

1Cr 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.


Lexicon Results Strong's G4395 - prophēteuō προφητεύω
Transliteration
prophēteuō
Pronunciation

pro-fā-tyü'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
from G4396
TDNT Reference
6:781,952
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict

a) to prophesy
b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation
d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels
1) under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others
e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office


While the context of this Chapter is written to the leaders of this assembly, men, and about order in the assembly as it appears they were having some difficulty, and this applies equally today. Prophecying in this case does not limit this gift to men only. By the same token, our Lord will not violate the order He has given us. So if a woman in assembly is called by the Lord to Prophecy as in respects to vs 25 He will also provide enough suitable witness with her discourse, it will be easily discernable to the Spirit led, thus we recognize our Lord at work here, and especially to this one who has his heart revealed so as to come to belief in God. In a case such as this a woman will not be violating the Lord's given order, but revealing the Lord's Spirit to all and in obedience to Him who has called her to Prophecy.

With respects to women speaking in assembly in relation to this discussion..........

1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Cr 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


To speak....

Lexicon Results Strong's G2980 - laleō λαλέω
Transliteration
laleō
Pronunciation
lä-le'-ō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
a prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb
TDNT Reference
4:69,505
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a) to speak


It seems evident here these women spoken of are unlearned, and so in the process of their learning they are told to be quiet and under obedience, and to ask their questions of their husbands at home, so as not to disrupt the assembly as it proceeds. It is shameful for women to speak out of order, which is to say, speak from their own minds. Women, in obedience, ask your men at home and don't disrupt. Men, as an ordained rulers of your women, be responsible to the Lord in how you rule, and especially, be responsive to Him in relation to helping your beloved to come to knowledge in the Lord as Christian believers.

It seems the Corinthians were having problems with order, thus Paul writing to teach them about gifts, order, and procedure. We have to look at this, there was no New Testament written at that time, in fact it was being written to them, and to us, the future assembly. It's the Eternal nature of the Word. They were closer time wise to the Apostles, and their revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ , His meaning to them in their time, and through His Gifts, and as now, but these folks evidently were having problems with some taking Spiritual gifts themselves and acting on them, instead of being given them and acting accordingly within the Spirit. The men of this church are being admonished more than the women for their leadership and conduct, and in relation to the Gifts of the Spirit and how to recognize them.

1Cr 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1Cr 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Cr 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.


Nothing here about anyone being prevented from an orderly expression of a Gift from the Spirit. And nothing here about usurping mens roles.

1Cr 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

It's all about the recognizing the Gift is from the Lord, and the expression in an orderly manner. That's my understanding, so far. I'm sure there's more.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:35 pm

MChat wrote:So long as that doesn't include women teaching/preaching over men, IAW 1 Cor 14:34 and 1 Tim 2:11-12.


weelllll......if you've defined prophecy as "expounding on God's Word," then it will include that. And of course, that would entail speaking. :wink: And the other gifts of the Holy Spirit entail speaking as well. So I think it's safe and scriptural to say that Paul was not forbidding women to speak in an assembly, but was rather quoting something from a letter the Corinthians had written or he was quoting from the Talmud.

I know you will disagree, and that will have to be the case I guess because I have never in my life attended any Christian gathering where women were forbidden to speak nor was it implied that it was a shame for them to speak. Has anyone else?

In those assemblies I've attended, women exercise all the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not only are pastors, deacons, and elders, but participate in teaching Bible Studies to pastors from all over the world.

:grin:
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:08 pm

Where would we find this quote to substantiate this? The earlier example from Menander is a great example, we can really pin that down.

But what is the reasoning that this is a quote, aside from the belief that it simply can't be what Paul is saying?

Love in Christ,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby bchandler on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:45 pm

How about a pastor, or an elder, or a teacher... after the service is over

With regard to some context for what Paul is saying in Corinthians... let us consider.

In a typical synagogue the men who had been through barmitzvah(sp?) gathered in the main synagogue. women and male children not yet of age gathered in a separate room that was screened off from the main room.

Kind of the way you see in some funeral homes where they have a room for immediate family and a room for everyone else at the memorial service.

When people gathered, any of the men in the main synagogue had the right to stand and speak what the spirit was putting on his heart, and to share from the scriptures in an orderly fashion. The Anabaptists called this the "sitter's right". The men would engage in an interactive discussion of what was being shared and taught. Even a debate was not uncommon. Though the Rabbi of the synagogue would act as the mediator, and moderator of the discussion and generally control the direction of the conversation. They would also select or choose people to read, and/or teach, from the scriptures.

It was unheard of for the women to interject themselves into this male dominated domain. And from what I was told by someone I trust who has studied church history is that in this church it had become a real problem in that the women were disrupting the service and discussions an derailing the teaching of the synagogue leaders.

This was the reason Paul told them to keep silence during the assembly. Apparently some of the women had taken it upon themselves to attempt to teach the men during the service, and to attempt to usurp the authority of the church leadership.

IMO, Paul was referring to a very specific portion of the service, and to the issue of rebellion toward authority. I do not think it even occurred to Paul that people might try to apply his instructions in such a way as to prevent women from contributing in the assembly, or to prevent their free worship, and speaking in tongues, or prophesying. Paul's point was that during the general teaching/learning/discussion portion of the service the women needed to reserve their questions and comments for their fathers, husbands, or some other leader in authority after that portion of the service had ended. Ideally... to learn from their husbands, at home... provided they were living in subjection to the Spirit and the Word.

This is what I have surmised, from my discussions regarding this from people more learned in church history than I.
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby MChat on Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:25 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:In those assemblies I've attended, women exercise all the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not only are pastors, deacons, and elders, but participate in teaching Bible Studies to pastors from all over the world.


1 Timothy 2 wrote:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


"usurp authority over"
Strongs #G831 authenteo - To have authority over.

Other versions:
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man - NIV
I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man - NASB
I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men - AMP
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them - NLT
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man - ESV
They should be silent and not be allowed to teach or to tell men what to do - CEV
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man - NKJV
I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man - ASV
I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man - DARBY
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man - HCSB
I do not let women teach. I do not let them have authority over men - NIRV
I do not allow any woman to teach or to rule over a man - WE
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man - NIVUK
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man - TNIV

Pastors, decons and elders are roles of authority and teaching within the Church.

And then there are the qualifications of Pastors and Decons:
1 Timothy 3 wrote:1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.


How can a woman ever be the "Husband of one Wife"?

Husband. Strongs #G435, Aner, Noun Masculine, a male, a husband.
Wife. Strongs #G1135, Gune, Noun Feminine, a woman, a wife.

Other Versions:
husband of but one wife - NIV
husband of one wife - NASB
husband of one wife - AMP
He must be faithful to his wife - NLT w/ footnote: Or must have only one wife, or must be married only once; Greek reads must be the husband of one wife
husband of one wife - ESV
faithful in marriage - CEV w/ footnote: Or "be the husband of only one wife"
husband of one wife - NKJV
he must have only one wife - NCV
husband of one wife - ASV
husband of one wife - DARBY
husband of one wife - HCSB
faithful to his wife - NIRV
He must have only one wife - WE
husband of but one wife - NIVUK
faithful to his wife - TNIV
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby MChat on Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:31 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:I know you will disagree, and that will have to be the case I guess because I have never in my life attended any Christian gathering where women were forbidden to speak nor was it implied that it was a shame for them to speak. Has anyone else?

In every Baptist Church I've attended or been a member of, no woman is allowed to teach a class attended by men. And in context, as I have stated before, I believe that 1 Cor 14:34 is addressing the issue of women teaching or taking/assuming authority in the Church and is a parrallel passage to 1 Tim 2:12.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:17 am

Well, if you search further, you will find references to deaconesses, prophetesses, and presbyters (overseerers, bishops) in the early church. And in order to function in their capacity, they surely had the freedom to speak without shame.

Paul referred to women several times as his "coworkers." This is the same term he applied to Timothy, Titus, Philemon and others. We have no reason to believe Paul had a problem with women functioning within the early church. There has not been found the law that Paul mentions to support forbidding women to speak nor is there scripture that states only men are to teach or speak in an assembly. And last but not least, the gifts have not been divided by gender, status, or ethnicity.

We are not correctly understanding Paul's directive to the Corinthians and are applying a faulty application as binding on all women for all time. There have been false brethren who have sneaked in to spy out the liberty we have in Christ Jesus in order to bring us into bondage.

....that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :grin:
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby MChat on Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:47 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Well, if you search further, you will find references to deaconesses, prophetesses, and presbyters (overseerers, bishops) in the early church. And in order to function in their capacity, they surely had the freedom to speak without shame.

I cannot think of any place in the New Testament which mentions women "bishops" (pastors) or deacons.

Abiding in His Word wrote:Paul referred to women several times as his "coworkers." This is the same term he applied to Timothy, Titus, Philemon and others. We have no reason to believe Paul had a problem with women functioning within the early church. There has not been found the law that Paul mentions to support forbidding women to speak nor is there scripture that states only men are to teach or speak in an assembly. And last but not least, the gifts have not been divided by gender, status, or ethnicity.

We are not correctly understanding Paul's directive to the Corinthians and are applying a faulty application as binding on all women for all time. There have been false brethren who have sneaked in to spy out the liberty we have in Christ Jesus in order to bring us into bondage.

....that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :grin:


Once again, obscure passages must be interpreted in the light of clear scripture. You cannot get more clear than 1 Tim 2:12.

nor is there scripture that states only men are to teach or speak in an assembly

If the assembly includes men, then 1 Tim 2:12 applies. There are only two sexes; and IAW God's Word women are not allowed to teach men, then that leaves only men to teach men (or over assemblies which include men).
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Tevye on Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:43 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote: Once you understand what an incredibly difficult ministry Paul had, you will come to admire him. He has been misunderstood and misinterpreted so much so that I can see why he appears abrasive to many.

I agree with you ABIW,
just imagine the suffering he went through for Christ
I can't wait to meet the Apostle Paul.
I only could hope for such a faith as Paul and the apostles had.

I recommend the visual bible movie series "Acts"
now that's a believer I would have compassion on
such a commitment to Adonai.


Acts (video link)


I also like the series because Dean Jones is in it as Luke.

Dean Jones also portrays a very good Apostle John in:


St. John In Exile (video link)
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Exit40 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:12 pm

I just have a minute here, this has come up...

1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Cr 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Cr 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Cr 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Cr 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Cr 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels.
1Cr 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Cr 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1Cr 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.
1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.


Paul states women do Prophecy, but are to have their head covered. Vs 10 says women are to have power on their head. Power....

Strong's G1849 - exousia ἐξουσία
Transliteration
exousia
Pronunciation

eks-ü-sē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

from G1832 (in the sense of ability)

TDNT Reference
2:562,238
Vines
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Outline of Biblical Usage
1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
a) leave or permission
2) physical and mental power
a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
a) universally
1) authority over mankind
b) specifically
1) the power of judicial decisions
2) of authority to manage domestic affairs
c) metonymically
1) a thing subject to authority or rule
a) jurisdiction
2) one who possesses authority
a) a ruler, a human magistrate
b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
e) the sign of regal authority, a crown


Back as soon as possible.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Exit40 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:25 pm

Appointment late, got another minute. Disregard the portion of my last regarding vs 10, power, until I can research further and understand the entire meaning of the passage. I'm fairly new at attempting to understand the meanings of the old languages. Sorry. ( but help would be appreciated , thanks )

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:46 pm

Hi David,

One thing I do that I think helps a lot is to look at each place a particular word is used. Sometimes it can take quite a bit of time, but I think it's worthwhile.

I use www.e-sword.net, one of the downloads is the KJV Concordance. It shows every reference for a given word, and you can click to go to that passage.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Swayde on Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:04 pm

mark s wrote:Hi David,

One thing I do that I think helps a lot is to look at each place a particular word is used. Sometimes it can take quite a bit of time, but I think it's worthwhile.

I use http://www.e-sword.net, one of the downloads is the KJV Concordance. It shows every reference for a given word, and you can click to go to that passage.

Love in Christ,
Mark



eSword rocks!
~Barbara
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:39 pm

Paul states women do Prophecy, but are to have their head covered. Vs 10 says women are to have power on their head. Power....


Before this thread veers off onto another topic since the OP was asking about silence, I hope we can agree that in order to prophecy, a woman must speak and speaking prophetic words do not equate with shame in speaking them. Further, the only logical venue for a prophectic word is in an assembly of believers.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:55 pm

Personally, I think prophecy does not need to be limited to the general assembly. Weren't there instances of very personal prophecies in the Bible?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:53 pm

mark s wrote:Personally, I think prophecy does not need to be limited to the general assembly. Weren't there instances of very personal prophecies in the Bible?


I agree this gift does not need to be limited to an assembly as is true of any gift. But scripture speaks specifically of it's use in the assembly as well; i.e. Ephesians 4, 1 Cor. 12 and 1 Cor. 14.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Exit40 on Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:44 am

mark s wrote:Hi David,

One thing I do that I think helps a lot is to look at each place a particular word is used. Sometimes it can take quite a bit of time, but I think it's worthwhile.

I use http://www.e-sword.net, one of the downloads is the KJV Concordance. It shows every reference for a given word, and you can click to go to that passage.

Love in Christ,
Mark


Hi Mark. Thanks for the link. I've heard of esword but did'nt see the deeper need for it til now. This issue has weighed on my heart, I'd really like to find an answer to it. Honestly, I'm not trying to fit Scripture to my belief, but find Scripture that answers what is in my heart. I know the Lord will answer, in His time.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:34 pm

mark s wrote:Where would we find this quote to substantiate this? The earlier example from Menander is a great example, we can really pin that down.

But what is the reasoning that this is a quote, aside from the belief that it simply can't be what Paul is saying?


Hello Mark,

Weekends are always busy with family and friends, etc., but I have found a little time this afternoon to do a little research which will lend credible, reasonable support to my thoughts that Paul is refuting the teachings of the Judaisers' Oral law as Jesus did as well.

While the Oral law (Talmud) was handed down orally for over 2,000 years, notes and thoughts were allowed to be recorded by students. If you've ever played the game where one sentence is passed on from person to person, you will not find it difficult to understand that embellishments and perspectives inevitably creep into the original. So it was with the Oral law.

I was not able to find the exact date of the first written compilation of the Rabbai's notes and records, but I have found some which are, I believe applicable to this thread. At the very least, they will confirm the negative, degrading perspective the Oral law conveyed about women. Keep in mind that both Jesus and Paul would have been instructed in the Oral law.

Here are several quotes I found with others along with several links for further information.

I. Rav says: Eve was formed out of a second face, which originally belonged to Adam. Shemuel says : She was formed out of a tail, which originally belonged to him. But what does Shemuel make of the words : " And he closed up the flesh instead thereof" ? That means only, where the tail was cut off. Berachoth, fol. 61, col. 1.

10 curses on Eve according to the talmud (Paul Isaac Ershon)

Ten curses were uttered against Eve. "Greatly multiply" refers to catamenia, etc.; " thy sorrow," in rearing children; " thy conception ;" " in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children;" " thy desire shall be to thy husband," which is felt most strongly on the eve of his setting out on a journey; "he shall rule over thee," in that he expresses his want and she feels it, which is commendable in women; she is wrapped up like a mourner, i.e., dares not appear in public with her head uncovered; is restricted to one husband, whilst he may have many wives, and is confined to the house as to a prison. Eiruvin, fol. 100, col. 2.

13. A woman who transgresses the Mosaic and the Judaic religions, shall be divorced with the loss of her marriage portion. She transgresses the former by giving her husband untithed food ; by waiting upon him in the period of separation ; by neglecting to offer the first of the dough ; and by not keeping her vows. She transgresses the latter by appearing in public with, her head uncovered ; by spinning in public ; by talking with all the men she meets ; by cursing her children in the presence of her husband ; and, adds Rabbi Tarphon (Tryphon), by talking so loud that she may be heard by her neighbours. Rabbi Meir deprecated the adoption of such a harsh measure ; but the Rabbis replied : A man cannot live with a serpent in the same basket. Kethuboth, fol. 72, col. 1.

47. The school of Shamai say : A man may not divorce his wife, except he found in her a matter of nakedness (fornication); for it is said (De. xxiv. 1): "Because he has found in her matter of nakedness." The school of Hillel (whom a certain school delight in representing as having exerted his authority for the modification of the severity of the Mosaic law) say : He may divorce her, even if she has burned his food; for it is said: " Because he has found in her matter of nakedness." Rabbi Akiva says : He may divorce her, even if he has found a prettier woman; for it is said (De. xxiv. 1) : "And it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes." Guittin, fol. 00, coL 1.

T. N. The three benedictions repeated daily are as follows: Blessed art Thou, Lord our God, who hast made me an Israelite ; Blessed art Thou, Lord our God, who hast not made me a woman; Blessed art Thou, Lord onr God, who hast not made me a slave. The woman says, instead : Blessed art Thou, Lord our God, who hast made me according to Thy will.

9. Rav Cahana arranged the chapters of Scripture before Rav, who, when Ecc. xii. 5 was read to him, heaved a deep sigh. Evidently, remarked Rav Cahana to himself, his manly virtue is gone. The same Rav Cahana said that Ps. xxxiii. 9 refers to the existence of women, and the institution of marriage as necessary evils. Woman, he adds, is a sink of impurity, her mouth is full of blood and yet all run after her. Shabbath, fol. 152, col. 1.


Taken from this compilation

Other references found, but not researched:

Berakhoth 43b "One is not so much as to greet a woman."

(Aboth 1.5) "He who talks with a woman in public brings evil upon himself."

Kethuboth 2 "godless man who sees his wife go out with her head uncovered. He is duty bound to divorce her


Other references and information about the Talmud here and here

When Jesus refers to the tradition of the elders or ancients, and again and again sadly mourns over the effect of its teaching upon the lives of the people, He is alluding to the teaching of the Talmud—at least of the Mishna, which in His day, although still unwritten, had assumed almost the identical form in which we find it.

Thus we see Jesus refuting the doctrines of the Rabbis/Pharisees over and over again who laid heavy burdens on the people and degraded life of the female which for ages has been lived by women in the East as in the West. Jesus, on the other hand, and well as Paul introduced radical teachings and practices, and by so doing worked a complete revolution in the life of the women of the future. To be sure the changes are a slow progression, but imho, believers ought to recognize the inconsistencies in those isolated verses with the whole counsel of God and refuse to resort to or live under the type of law Jesus and Paul consistently refuted.

Paul steadfastly taught freedom and liberty under the law of grace as opposed to the law of Moses or any other law which serves to bring believers into bondage. Certainly he didn't divide the gifts into male and female gifts nor would he forbid the use of them in any assembly. He knew there were females in the history of the Jews who were leaders and prophets, and knew that at Pentecost, they received the Holy Spirit as well. He knew it was the fulfillment of Joel that both sons and daughters would receive the gifts. He worked side by side with them in furthering the gospel and asked many to be of assistence to them as they worked in the church. To think that he would resort to silencing them as taught by the Pharisees in the Oral law or limit their ministry in any way is simply inconceivable to me. Much more in keeping with the gospel as well as his epistles is recognizing those verses which seem to apply more to the Oral law and contradict others as quotes and/or refutes.

as I see it.....
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby bchandler on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:51 pm

Wow Abiding,

I can not even fathom why you would waste your time reading garbage like that. This is precisely what Jesus was dealing with when he said their "traditions" made the word of God of none effect.

However, to make the leap, from these heinous Talmudic writings to Paul chastising this church is simply not a coherent, contextual, or logical assertion. I simply can find nothing in the context that would lend any credibility to such an interpretation.

If you can provide some grammatical foundation to support your assertion it would be interesting to see. I just do not know how that can possibly be from the Greek text as I read it.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:29 pm

bchandler wrote:Wow Abiding,

I can not even fathom why you would waste your time reading garbage like that. This is precisely what Jesus was dealing with when he said their "traditions" made the word of God of none effect.


That "garbage" was exactly was Paul and Jesus refuted when He said "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees....." And that garbage did have an influence on those over which the Pharisees and Sanhedrin exerted their power with these Oral laws. Paul would have been very knowledgeable about the Oral law since it had nearly surpassed the importance of the Mosaic Law. Paul was a disciple of Gamaliel who was an authority on the Jewish Oral Law.

However, to make the leap, from these heinous Talmudic writings to Paul chastising this church is simply not a coherent, contextual, or logical assertion. I simply can find nothing in the context that would lend any credibility to such an interpretation.


In reality imho, it's more of a leap, bchandler, to believe that Paul's "chastising" the assembly of Corinth was meant to silence all women for all time in any assembly. We can find no law to which Paul refers nor one that implies it is shameful for a women to speak. I suggest that he is possibly responding to a question in a letter previously sent by the Pharisees and that this is a quote from their objection to women's participation in an assembly.

I agree that they are heinous, but nevertheless, they are referenced in many commentaries as the source of and explanation forcertain difficult passages in scripture. See Adam Clarke's commentary for 1 Cor. 14:34:

1Co 14:34 -
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that “a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.” And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, “Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women.” This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co_11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.

If you can provide some grammatical foundation to support your assertion it would be interesting to see. I just do not know how that can possibly be from the Greek text as I read it.


I have provided support for my belief. If no one can provide the law that Paul seems to refer to silencing women and perceiving it as a "shame" than I will gladly reconsider my position. However, in examining difficult passages, it is necessary to examine the background, source, circumstances, and it's harmony with the rest of scripture in order to more accurately understand it. The Talmud provides us with a very good understanding of the reason for the constant confrontations of the Pharisees with Jesus, the disciples, and Paul.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby smackbucket on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:37 pm

Mine can!
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby imirish01 on Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:28 pm

I don't know if this passage is meant to be enforced today, or if it was for the specific church 2,000 years ago? God appears to me to be moving contrary, in some ways, to this passage. He has raised up women pastors. They have taught men. I am hesitant to say these women pastors are all outside the Word.

I note in one of books of Moses, he speaks of how the Lord gave a law regarding beating servants. This would appear that God agreed with beating people who were your servant. Yet, in centuries past, God has appeared to have raised Godly men to stop slavery. So what was a law, appears to have changed.

I don't know if the women are not permitted to speak in church "law"( or if the meaning of what was written) has changed. But if we hold to once true, always true, then why has God appeared to have changed His mind on slavery and treatment of slaves? Society has changed and apparently, so has the law. So then, has the law regarding women teaching changed as well?

I do know that the majority of popular women teachers in America, cater mostly to women. Thus, God is holding true to this passage.

If we concede this belief about women teaching has changed, then what of homosexuality? If we believe God's law regarding slavery has changed, then what of other things?
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:24 pm

irish, that is the slippery slope, is it not, if we believe God's word changes over time in one area, why could it not change in other areas? There is no provision for women pastors in the church in the NT, but now some churches allow women pastors, did the Word change? If that aspect of who can be a pastor has changed why not allow homosexuals or adulterers? Do we get to pick and choose which aspects of the Word changes?

As far as the reference to women being silent in 1 Cor 14, Paul refers to the silence of women again in 1 Tim 2, 'I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent'. That this applies not only to Paul's time but to all time is demonstrated by Paul's further statement- 'For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner..'

Adam being formed first is a truth for all time, man was made before woman, this does not apply only to the time of Paul. Woman was the one deceived, not the man, this is true for all time not just the time of Paul. Paul is stating the reasons why woman does not have authority over man in terms that apply to all times by referring to the very beginning of woman and man.

Therefore the statements of Paul in 1 Tim 2, and 1 Cor 14 which is a restatement, apply not only to Paul's time but also to the present time, God's word does not change.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby MChat on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:11 am

1whowaits wrote:Therefore the statements of Paul in 1 Tim 2, and 1 Cor 14 which is a restatement, apply not only to Paul's time but also to the present time, God's word does not change.

:a3:
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:40 am

1whowaits wrote:irish, that is the slippery slope, is it not, if we believe God's word changes over time in one area, why could it not change in other areas? There is no provision for women pastors in the church in the NT, but now some churches allow women pastors, did the Word change?
'

I think imirish was making a very valid point, iwhowaits. The point should be well taken and examined. God's Word does not change, but our understanding of it certainly does. If we look at it through a filter or lens with a pre-conceived idea, we do not see it in the correct perspective. Furthermore, when it is "drilled" into us repeatedly as a truth, we tend to accept it without further or superficial examination.

The issue of slavery is important as it runs parallel in application and understanding of women's in the church today. No believer (hopefully) would perceive Paul as justifying or condoning the very prevalent practice of slavery when he said the following:

Col 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth.....

It's just the way it was in that time and had been for 4,000 yrs but you can never prove from scripture that slavery was ordained by God. Paul, however, does gradually wrench believers away from this practice and entreats Philemon (who himself owned a slave) to change his attitude toward Onesimus from that of a master to that of a brother. Paul continues his efforts in the church of Corinth by encouraging believing slaves that if they could be free to do so. And to the church is Galatia by erasing the distinctions between relationships as carnal divisions and reminding them that they are all one in Christ. But we know that fundamentalists continued to use the "slavery" scriptures as support for owning and maintaining that control.

Christians today have become more aware of the social and historical contexts in which Scripture was written, as well as the progressive nature of revelation. So, you can see that, while God's Word doesn't change, our understanding of it does.

If that aspect of who can be a pastor has changed why not allow homosexuals or adulterers? Do we get to pick and choose which aspects of the Word changes?


I've heard this argument so many times and really it's silly. Homosexuality and adultery are sins; being a women is not. Furthermore, we surely do have sinners of one kind or another as leaders, do we not? Paul was a murderer or gigantic proportions. I have no doubt that many who preach and teach have sin in their lives that might surprise us, but again, to compare women to these sins is faulty reasoning.

As far as the reference to women being silent in 1 Cor 14, Paul refers to the silence of women again in 1 Tim 2, 'I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent'. That this applies not only to Paul's time but to all time is demonstrated by Paul's further statement- 'For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner..'

Adam being formed first is a truth for all time, man was made before woman, this does not apply only to the time of Paul. Woman was the one deceived, not the man, this is true for all time not just the time of Paul. Paul is stating the reasons why woman does not have authority over man in terms that apply to all times by referring to the very beginning of woman and man.

Therefore the statements of Paul in 1 Tim 2, and 1 Cor 14 which is a restatement, apply not only to Paul's time but also to the present time, God's word does not change.


1whowaits, Scripture is replete with accounts in which God intentionally overturned the cultural custom of primogeniture.

For example, God chose:

Isaac over Ishmael,

Jacob over Esau,

Ephraim over Manasseh,

the tribe of Judah over that of Reuben the eldest,

Joseph over all his older brothers,

and David over all his older brothers

So to invoke "order of creation" to prove anything creates another circular argument. 1Timothy 2:13 does not serve as compelling proof that Paul is mandating female exclusion in ministry of any type.

What Paul is saying from this Genesis account has nothing to do with assigning all women of all times a subordinate status in church life. It was cited to make the point that untaught and unqualified individuals should not aspire to teaching functions or to positions of leadership. They should first become quiet learners. Adam (man) has been formed; now it's time for Eve (women) to be formed.

Scripture clearly states that it was the deliberate, willful sin of disobedience on the part of Adam that brought condemnation and subsequent death to all mankind. And yet we allow "Adams" to serve in positions of leadership. So the deception of Eve does not preclude women today from serving in positions of leadership either. However, Paul's admonition for learning in a quiet manner first still holds true until they are "formed" and capable.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:06 am

Hi Abiding,

Thank you for the research! So then, it doesn't look like we have anyplace that we can actually point to and say, "Paul was quoting from here."

btw . . .

1Co 14:34 Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says.

You seem to be interpreting this verse as having Paul saying, "the law does not allow women to speak", however, the closest clause associated with the clause, "as also the law says" is "but to be in subjection", therefore, the more natural reading of the passage has Paul saying "the law has women in subjection", which goes back to one of God's earliest pronouncements.

Love in Christ,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:27 am

mark s wrote:Hi Abiding,

Thank you for the research! So then, it doesn't look like we have anyplace that we can actually point to and say, "Paul was quoting from here."


You're welcome, Mark. We don't have an exact reference since I haven't researched through the entire hundreds of pages, but did find many Oral laws that do indeed support the overall attitude of the Pharisees which Paul would have been very familiar with. The more reasonable interpretation (since there is no other that requires silence, shame, or subjection of women only) is the cultural influence of the Talmud as many commentaries recognize: (as I posted above from Adam Clarke)

1Co 14:34 -
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that “a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff.” And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, “Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women.” This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co_11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.


btw . . .

1Co 14:34 Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says.

You seem to be interpreting this verse as having Paul saying, "the law does not allow women to speak", however, the closest clause associated with the clause, "as also the law says" is "but to be in subjection", therefore, the more natural reading of the passage has Paul saying "the law has women in subjection", which goes back to one of God's earliest pronouncements.


We've been there before....do we really want to dissect Genesis again? :roll: In view of Paul consistent refutes of returning to the law, are you thinking this was his one exception? Do we think women are to live by a different type of subjection than are all believers to one another and husbands and wives to one another? And finally, are we interpreting subjection (of all believers to one another) as authority over one another? Of course not.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:44 am

extravagantchristian wrote:Hmm, but Priscilla and Aquila were husband and wife and they both taught that one guy, so maybe women can be involved in teaching, when done as a team in marriage? Um, but maybe not in church? :dunno:


Hello EC,

Do you find scripture that commands wives to only teach with their husbands?

Is there a scripture that commands only men to teach women?

Paul could have issued such a command very clearly, but did not although he was a very learned, astute, and articulate individual.

He could have said:

Women are never to teach.
Only men can teach
Women can only teach other women
Women can teach children
Women can teach boys up to age 12-13 or 14
Only men have the gift of teaching per the Holy Spirit
Women can only prophecy in an assembly
Women can teach Sunday School before the assembly
Women can teach in a fellowship of believers
etc. etc. etc.

He did not. The reason he did not, was because he was directing this to a specific church for a specific reason for a specific time. Nor did Jesus imply any such thing. In fact, he sat as a teacher/Rabbi with Mary at his feet just as the Jewish scholars sat at the feet of their teachers. Nor were the Holy Spirit's gifts divided into female and male categories.

There is absolutely no scriptural foundation for Paul to exclude women for speaking or teaching. We must see the context of the passage as none other than correcting the disorderly conduct in the church of Corinth.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:35 am

.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:39 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
btw . . .

1Co 14:34 Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says.

You seem to be interpreting this verse as having Paul saying, "the law does not allow women to speak", however, the closest clause associated with the clause, "as also the law says" is "but to be in subjection", therefore, the more natural reading of the passage has Paul saying "the law has women in subjection", which goes back to one of God's earliest pronouncements.


We've been there before....do we really want to dissect Genesis again? :roll: In view of Paul consistent refutes of returning to the law, are you thinking this was his one exception? Do we think women are to live by a different type of subjection than are all believers to one another and husbands and wives to one another? And finally, are we interpreting subjection (of all believers to one another) as authority over one another? Of course not.


Hi Abiding,

Mostly, I'm interested in our hermeneutic and exegesis. The point in question here is:

In the passage . . .

1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says."

. . . does the clause, "as also the Law says" refer to women speaking, or to women being in subjection?

The most natural reading of a clause is in reference to it's adjacent clauses. To skip over an adjacent clause isn't out of the question if there is some particular grammatical reason in the syntax, but I'm not aware of any such issue here.

So then my understanding of this passage is that Paul is saying that there is something in the Law the speaks of women being in subjection, not that there is something in the Law that speaks of women not being allowed to speak.

As far as getting into a discussion on the exact meaning of Genesis 3:16, if you are seriously asking me these questions, please affirm that, and I will give you my answers.

I will make one other comment, though, when the Jews spoke of "the Law", there were two different things they referred to, and we need to be clear which one was in view in the various passages.

There was the "Law of Moses", what we typically think of as "the Law", and, "the Law and the Prophets", a more catch-all phrase for the Old Testament. In saying "as also the Law says", Paul could have been referring specifically to the Law of Moses, or could have been referring to the Old Testament in general.

So then, while Paul taught that we do not follow the Law of Moses, this does not abrogate, for instance, that men and women join together to become one flesh, something that God put in place outside of the Law of Moses.

Again, this is a matter of correct hermeneutics, and of "rightly dividing" the Word.

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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:53 am

extravagantchristian wrote:All these excuses you have come up with to deny that these scriptures apply to us today are a bunch of baloney (for lack of a better word). :a2:


Wow, extravagantchristian. If you see a study of God's word as excuses and/or baloney, I am sorry indeed. Feel free to exclude yourself if you are clear on your position however, you didn't seem clear when you asked if women could speak in your OP. Nor did you appear clear when you asked just a few minutes ago if it was possible that women could teach only with their husbands as a team.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:48 am

.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:32 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:Abiding, I think there are some grey areas, like, what if a woman wanted to witness to a man in a nursing home, when would that turn into "teaching"? And what if a single woman wanted to have a bible study in her home because she loves her lost neighbors and doesn't want them to go to hell? Would that be wrong? If woman are allowed to witness to men, then when does that turn into teaching? When does the group get big enough to where it becomes in- appropriate for the woman to teach? When a Christian man shows up?

Does the rule just apply to when Christians are gathered together in church? But not outside of the church? Possibly.


Well, at least you are questioning rather than assuming absolutes. That's a good thing.

But when you say that men and women are on 100% equal ground, that men are not to lead women, and that women can pastor and teach men in church, that bothers me because you are ignoring what the Word says.

1 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Timothy 2:12
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.


I'm not ignoring what the Bible says, extravagantchristian. I'm interpreting it differently than some are because I believe the "traditional" teaching is erroneous. I have endeavored to supply scripture that supports my view and will continue if you request this of me, otherwise you will most likely see it as a bunch of baloney as you put it. Again, I will not be offended if you ignore my posts if you find them offensive to your view, but since scripture entitles all believers to use scripture to correct and refute, that's what I am doing to the best of my ability.

That's the purpose of this discussion board after all..... :grin: that we can learn from one another.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:40 pm

Hi Mark,
Mostly, I'm interested in our hermeneutic and exegesis. The point in question here is:

In the passage . . .

1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says."

. . . does the clause, "as the also the Law says" refer to women speaking, or to women being in subjection?

The most natural reading of a clause is in reference to it's adjacent clauses. To skip over an adjacent clause isn't out of the question if there is some particular grammatical reason in the syntax, but I'm not aware of any such issue here.


Are you suggesting that in the context of Paul's efforts to bring orderly worship to the assembly at Corinth, he stops to establish a system of subjection in an assembly that is peculiar to married women? If that's how you interpret this passage, Paul is clearly only objecting to married women speaking since he advises asking their husbands. But I do not see that as his intention nor the context. Paul knew that at Pentecost, women were recipients as well as the men and that those gifts were for the edification of the body of Christ. He also knew that there was no previous law that prohibited their expression by females.

So then my understanding of this passage is that Paul is saying that there is something in the Law the speaks of women being in subjection, not that there is something in the Law that speaks of women not being allowed to speak.


But we know there is nothing in the law that forbids a women to speak or that states it is a shame for them to speak in any venue. Why would you ignore those two aspects of the passage? We know that all believers are to be subject to one another and husbands and wives as well. We do not have a law, command, or even a suggestion from scripture that all women are subject to all men. If you know of one, please share it.

As far as getting into a discussion on the exact meaning of Genesis 3:16, if you are seriously asking me these questions, please affirm that, and I will give you my answers.


What I meant by that is that we have thoroughly discussed Genesis several times before and failed to arrive at an agreement. However, no matter how one translates the passage in Genesis, it would not be incumbent upon all women, but only those who are married. You may want to refer to my post above from Nov. 18 regarding that passage.

I will make one other comment, though, when the Jews spoke of "the Law", there were two different things they referred to, and we need to be clear which one was in view in the various passages. There was the "Law of Moses", what we typically think of as "the Law", and, "the Law and the Prophets", a more catch-all phrase for the Old Testament. In saying "as also the Law says", Paul could have been referring specifically to the Law of Moses, or could have been referring to the Old Testament in general.


Agree 100%. If we cannot find it in the written law, we must assume it's from the Oral.

So then, while Paul taught that we do not follow the Law of Moses, this does not abrogate, for instance, that men and women join together to become one flesh, something that God put in place outside of the Law of Moses.


A gentle correction....only in marriage do men and women become one flesh. Again, there is no law in scripture that ordains or sanctions all women to be in subjection to all men nor does that subjection of all believers to one another suggest authority. Otherwise, we see many contradictions to that supposition in scripture.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:37 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Hi Mark,
Mostly, I'm interested in our hermeneutic and exegesis. The point in question here is:

In the passage . . .

1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says."

. . . does the clause, "as the also the Law says" refer to women speaking, or to women being in subjection?

The most natural reading of a clause is in reference to it's adjacent clauses. To skip over an adjacent clause isn't out of the question if there is some particular grammatical reason in the syntax, but I'm not aware of any such issue here.


Are you suggesting that in the context of Paul's efforts to bring orderly worship to the assembly at Corinth, he stops to establish a system of subjection in an assembly that is peculiar to married women? If that's how you interpret this passage, Paul is clearly only objecting to married women speaking since he advises asking their husbands. But I do not see that as his intention nor the context. Paul knew that at Pentecost, women were recipients as well as the men and that those gifts were for the edification of the body of Christ. He also knew that there was no previous law that prohibited their expression by females.


Hi Abiding,

I'm suggesting that we interpret Scripture according to the basic concepts of how the language it was written in functions.

Without some certain specific reason for skipping over the adjacent clause, "but to be in subjection", we should not association the clause, "as also the Law says" with the preceding clause, "for it is not allowed to them to speak."

This passage should be understood as Paul saying that that being in subjection is what the Law also says. Take that as you will.
So then my understanding of this passage is that Paul is saying that there is something in the Law the speaks of women being in subjection, not that there is something in the Law that speaks of women not being allowed to speak.


But we know there is nothing in the law that forbids a women to speak or that states it is a shame for them to speak in any venue. Why would you ignore those two aspects of the passage? We know that all believers are to be subject to one another and husbands and wives as well. We do not have a law, command, or even a suggestion from scripture that all women are subject to all men. If you know of one, please share it.


Personally, I think this is going in the wrong direction. As I believe Paul was saying that being in subjection was what the law also said, it would therefore be moot to ask where the Law says for women to not speak.

But perhaps then your argument is with Paul, since it was he who wrote those words, of what "also the Law says".

As far as getting into a discussion on the exact meaning of Genesis 3:16, if you are seriously asking me these questions, please affirm that, and I will give you my answers.


What I meant by that is that we have thoroughly discussed Genesis several times before and failed to arrive at an agreement. However, no matter how one translates the passage in Genesis, it would not be incumbent upon all women, but only those who are married. You may want to refer to my post above from Nov. 18 regarding that passage.


OK, I thought that you were not actually wanting me to address these points. Thank you for clarifying! :grin:
I will make one other comment, though, when the Jews spoke of "the Law", there were two different things they referred to, and we need to be clear which one was in view in the various passages. There was the "Law of Moses", what we typically think of as "the Law", and, "the Law and the Prophets", a more catch-all phrase for the Old Testament. In saying "as also the Law says", Paul could have been referring specifically to the Law of Moses, or could have been referring to the Old Testament in general.


Agree 100%. If we cannot find it in the written law, we must assume it's from the Oral.


That's not actually what I'm saying. I made no reference to an "oral law".

So then, while Paul taught that we do not follow the Law of Moses, this does not abrogate, for instance, that men and women join together to become one flesh, something that God put in place outside of the Law of Moses.


A gentle correction....only in marriage do men and women become one flesh. Again, there is no law in scripture that ordains or sanctions all women to be in subjection to all men nor does that subjection of all believers to one another suggest authority. Otherwise, we see many contradictions to that supposition in scripture.


Just to be clear, I'm referring to Genesis 2:24, "Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife and they shall become one flesh."

I'm not suggesting that this occurs outside of marriage.

But the point I'm making is that though we don't follow the Law of Moses, yet even so, a man joins to his wife and the two become one flesh. This remains true, and part of the believer's life, as God established it outside of the Law of Moses.

Other things God established outside of the Law of Moses are not abrogated by our release from the Law of Moses.

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:25 pm

But the point I'm making is that though we don't follow the Law of Moses, yet even so, a man joins to his wife and the two become one flesh. This remains true, and part of the believer's life, as God established it outside of the Law of Moses.


Mark, the original design for the man and woman was that they have dominion together. Upon leaving the garden, God gives a series of prophetic words that emphasize the struggles and sorrow they will have as a result of leaving the perfect place, perfect companionship, and perfect fellowship with Him that He ordained for them. Those prophetic words were struggles that we have overcome and no longer adhere to as we recognize them as sorrowful struggles rather than commands. My post of Nov. 18 makes that clear. Nowhere did God command Adam to rule over Eve and nowhere did He command Eve to be subject to Adam. He simply, specifically forewarned that this would happen as man's desire to have power and dominion over others continues throughout the Word. It is always a struggle against the fleshly, carnal desire to rule over others and the consequences throughout history are obvious.

God's provision for the husband to cleave to his wife is a protection against abuse as are all His laws designed to protect the weaker from the stronger, recognizing that it was not His perfect design.
The history of the Word shows God's progressive revelation to mankind and none of it was perfect until the advent of the Savior who would fulfill the whole law and write in on the heart.

We know that the law regulated abuse and made provisions for atonement for sin. It was not God's perfect plan for all time. We know that because of His promise to Eve that from her seed would come the Messiah. With the coming of the Messiah, He fulfilled His prophetic words and the law is now written on our hearts as is God's perfect plan. Since Jesus redeemed us from the law, we must see it as foundational and secondary to the one that fulfills the whole law:

...... and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:9-10

God was speaking to two individuals when he said they were to be fruitful and multiply. The end result of that would be the fulfillment of his mercy to mankind, Jesus Christ, the Redeemer. Following that, we find no command that all people must marry nor that all must multiply. In fact, Paul says that he wished all were single as he was. He was not contradicting any law that commanded all people to become one flesh via marriage.

Paul was not in the habit of contradicting God's laws, but made no provision for the traditions of man.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby MChat on Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:16 pm

Give it up guys. AIHW has chosen to reject certain scriptures because they don't fit his agenda of welcoming women pastors, deacons, teachers, etc. And if he continues to teach this to other Christians, then it'll be he who has to answer to God for it. We've done our part to enlighten him to clear scriptures which contradict his thinking, it's up to the Holy Spirit to convict him now.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:46 pm

A reminder to all

Ephesians 4

1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,

3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


Philippians 4

5Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.


It's because of verses like this that our number one rule here is

1. Our number one rule is from our Lord Himself. We are to love each other, no matter how deeply we may disagree. If we can't even handle each other, how are we going to handle persecution? So, if it can't be said in love, don't say it.


Please keep the Lord's desire for us to be gentle in mind when posting. Thanks.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:40 pm

MChat wrote:Give it up guys. AIHW has chosen to reject certain scriptures because they don't fit his agenda of welcoming women pastors, deacons, teachers, etc. And if he continues to teach this to other Christians, then it'll be he who has to answer to God for it. We've done our part to enlighten him to clear scriptures which contradict his thinking, it's up to the Holy Spirit to convict him now.


That's right. Thanks to those of you who answerwed my question, I do feel like I have a much better understanding of the verse I origonaly posted.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby imirish01 on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:45 pm

Sometimes, conversations like this can give us the opportunity to practice Love- 1Cor13:5-8 Does not behave itself unseemly, seeks not its own, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil: Rejoices not over iniquity, but rejoices in truth, Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails! We don't need to resort to insults since we are all filled with the Spirit of God? Practice the fruits. Submit to one another in love.

Mark,

You capitalize the word Law when you write 1Cor14:34. My bible does not have the word Law capitalized (bible from the Ancient Eastern Text). I have a NKJV, but not with me. When Law is capitalized, it means the Law of the bible. But how do we know that Paul was not referring the the Corinthian law?

How do you guys deal with verse 36? Paul seems to make the statement in vs 34-35, then asks "What?Did the word of God come from you? Or did it come for you only?" In verse 37, he calls on the prophets to confirm, by the Spirit, what Paul was writing. Verse 36 sticks out there like a sore thumb. In verse 34-35, Paul's statement is without refute, but then he himself seems to refute it in vs. 36? Any assistance would be appreciated.

I do believe it is good for a woman to sit under a man's pastoral-ship, but I prefer women teachers. Being a women, I want to learn from a women. And when I look around to see what the Lord is doing with His people, I notice that women are called to roles as leaders. As such, they teach men. Those who are of the Spirit, are led by the Spirit. Sometimes, God does not tell the soldiers in the battle, what the Captain of Hosts is doing.

As a woman, I need to be obedient to the Lord, and where He leads me, I shall go. Paul clearly said, in scripture, which is inspired by God and is profitable, that women are not to teach men. For Paul does not permit it. But Paul is not God. If God appears to be doing something else in this day and age, whether it be because men are not taking their place, or that He has chosen to put women in leadership and teaching positions, what is this soldier to say to her God?
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:15 pm

Irish, actually 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim are considered to be the inspired word of God, what is stated is not just Paul's words, they are God's words, and God does not change. And God's word does not change, even if others suggest that our subjective interpretation outweighs the clear meaning of scripture, and 1 Tim is very clear.

God is indicating through Paul that His intention is that women not be in authority over men in the church. This is consistent with the rest of scripture, men are to be in the leadership role in the home and in the church, that is the order of responsibility which He has set up.

That does not deny the very necessary role of women in the church, and certainly women can be in leadership positions over other women, and can engage in acts of ministry to men.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby imirish01 on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:01 pm

Thanks 1whowaits.

I agree that 1Cor14 and 1Tim are stating that women are not to teach men (though Abiding makes one heck of a point!!!). However, how do you deal with what God is doing now? I do believe, as I stated above, the bible is inspired by God. But, how do we compute, when God does things differently than we have interpreted from His inspired word?

BTW, God did change His mind in dealing with Tyre. Can't recall the book, but God emphatically stated Tyre was going down! Later in the prophetic writings, God says He changed His mind. Wish I could recall the book. I am sure someone will help me.

So if Cor and Tim state women are not to teach me, how do we deal with this today? Are women, who say they are called by God to be pastors, wrong? Are we judging an other's servant? Will not that woman answer to God, as Paul says in Rom 14:12-13?

Paul also states that women are to pray with a covering over their head, but this is not done today.

These questions have been asked and answered by others much more wise than any of us, but it is fun to flesh them out here, so that we have an answer for those that question.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:18 pm

1whowaits wrote:That does not deny the very necessary role of women in the church, and certainly women can be in leadership positions over other women, and can engage in acts of ministry to men.


Hello 1whowaits,

I have three questions if you wouldn't mind answering them.

1) May I ask where you find the list of roles assigned for women and those assigned for men in the church?

2) Is there a scripture that says men are to teach women?

3) Where do you find women are only to teach other women?

Just curious.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby wimsmom on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:17 pm

I would like to suggest that this topic be locked. I think that this contentiousness is unbecoming. I suggest further questions be taken to the bible and if that fails to enlighten, I suggest prayer and fasting.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:37 pm

wimsmom wrote:I would like to suggest that this topic be locked. I think that this contentiousness is unbecoming. I suggest further questions be taken to the bible and if that fails to enlighten, I suggest prayer and fasting.


Hello wimsmom,

I think it's been a very nice and informative thread with a variety of thoughts and perspectives. It really should have been posted in the debate forum though. It's an important topic since it involves at least one half of the Body of Christ.

A thread would be closed when it gets heated, and personal attacks continue after being reminded that we can disagree without being unkind. AndCanItBe posted a reminder so I trust it will be just fine.

Thank you for your suggestion and but I think you will find that most are posting in a civil, though strong, manner.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:38 pm

.
Last edited by extravagantchristian on Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:47 pm

:lol: Have to admit it did surprise me a bit....

:hugs:
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:49 pm

:lol: sorry :hugs:
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:51 pm

Thank you, extravagantchristian. :blessyou:
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Re: Can women speak in church?

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:48 pm

Abiding, the responsibilities of men are detailed in 1 Tim 3, the overseers, the elders, were husbands of 1 wife, obviously men, and deacons, also husbands of 1 wife, were again obviously men. There is no mention of the elders or deacons being the wife of 1 husband, or widows or single women, Paul outlines the responsibilites of the office as if there is no question who would be the husband of 1 wife.

The elders had the responsibility of teaching - 'The elders who direct the afffairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.' 1 Tim 5:17 As teaching would involve the entire church, both men and women, and the elders were responsible for teaching, the elders were responsible for teaching women as well as men.

As Paul states that women are not to teach or have authority over men, a woman could not be an elder as the responsibilites of that office included teaching men. Although women are precluded from teaching men, there is no mention of women not being able to teach other women, so i have made the assumption that women can teach other women.

This would be the most straightforward interpretation of these passages, and they are not complicated in their meaning. There are certain passages of scripture that are open to interpretation, such a prophetic passages, that are more complex and difficult to understand. But there are other passages of scripture that are straightforward in their meaning, such as those regarding homosexuality, the prohibition is clear, there is no other interpretation.

But there are those who choose to interpret the prohibitions on homosexuality to suit their own views, so there are churches who allow homosexual ministers as they choose to follow their own interpretation of scripture.

My point being that 1 Tim 2: 11-13 is not a difficult to interpret passage, it is straight forward in its meaning, women are not to be in authority over men. But if we are unwilling to look at the passages that are straightforward in their meaning in a straigthforward manner because of our own biases, how can we ever hope to understand the much more complex prophetic passages that are not so straightforward?
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