Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Discussion not limited to prophecy.

Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Jericho on Sun May 03, 2020 9:52 am

Surrounded by amulets of the coronavirus crisis, I stare out my window at a city that may or may not be on the verge of disaster. To my right is a case of canned pasta. To my left are cartons of corned-beef hash from New Jersey and bottled water from Maine. I’m ready for whatever comes.

Except, I’m not ready. In fact, even at my advanced 80-something age, I find the whole Covid-19 panic to be strange and troubling. I’ve lived through epidemics before, but they didn’t crash the stock market, wreck a booming economy, and shut down international travel. They didn’t stop the St. Patrick’s Day parade or the NCAA basketball tournament, and they didn’t drop the curtain on Broadway shows. Will these extreme measures have any real effect on the spread of Covid-19 in New York, or America? We’re about to find out.

My first encounter with a global pandemic came in October 1957, when I spent a week in my college infirmary with a case of the H2N2 virus, known at the time by the politically incorrect name of “Asian flu.” My fever spiked to 105, and I was sicker than I’d ever been. The infirmary quickly filled with other cases, though some ailing students toughed it out in their dorm rooms with aspirin and orange juice. The college itself did not close, and the surrounding town did not impose restrictions on public gatherings. The day that I was discharged from the infirmary, I played in an intercollegiate soccer game, which drew a big crowd.

It’s not that Asian flu—the second influenza pandemic of the twentieth century—wasn’t a serious disease. Worldwide, this flu strain killed somewhere between 1 and 2 million people. More than 100,000 died in the U.S. alone. And yet, to the best of my knowledge, governors did not call out the National Guard, and political panic-mongers did not blame it all on President Eisenhower. College sports events were not cancelled, planes and trains continued to run, and Americans did not regard one another with fear and suspicion, touching elbows instead of hands. We took the Asian flu in stride. We said our prayers and took our chances.

Today, I look back and wonder if an oblivious America faced the 1957 plague with a kind of clueless folly. Why weren’t we more active in fighting this contagion? Could stricter quarantine procedures have reduced the rate of infection and lowered the death toll? In short, why weren’t we more afraid?

It’s hard to answer that question without explaining what it was like to grow up in an age of infectious illness. My mother once showed me a list of the contagious diseases she survived before the age of 20. On the list were the usual childhood illnesses, along with deadly afflictions like typhoid fever, pneumonia, diphtheria (it killed her older brother), scarlet fever, and the lethal 1918–19 Spanish flu, which took more than 50 million lives around the world.

For those who grew up in the 1930s and 1940s, there was nothing unusual about finding yourself threatened by contagious disease. Mumps, measles, chicken pox, and German measles swept through entire schools and towns; I had all four. Polio took a heavy annual toll, leaving thousands of people (mostly children) paralyzed or dead. There were no vaccines. Growing up meant running an unavoidable gauntlet of infectious disease. For college students in 1957, the Asian flu was a familiar hurdle on the road to adulthood. For everyone older, the flu was a familiar foe. There was no possibility of working at home. You had to go out and face the danger.

Today, thanks to vaccines, fewer and fewer people remember what it was like to survive a succession of childhood diseases. Is the unfamiliar threat of serious sickness making us more afraid of Covid-19 than we need to be? Does a society that relies more on politics than faith now find itself in an uncomfortable bind, unable to lecture, browbeat, intimidate, or evade the incorrect behavior of a dangerous microbe?

When the coronavirus finally runs its course, one of the most important tasks for health-care officials will be to determine whether the preventive measures we’re taking today were effective. Did deploying the National Guard save lives, or did it simply expose the soldiers to an infection that, in the end, could not be stopped? Did we pay too high a price for tanking our economy and disrupting our society?

Or did we get it right, acting quickly and decisively to slow the virus, shutting down possible pathways of infection? By comparing the 2020 data with information from 1957, we’ll also be able to find out if the strange people who lived in that distant year—and I remember them well—could have done more to reduce the death toll of the Asian flu. The more answers we get, and the sooner we get them, the better it will be for everyone. When the curtain goes up on Broadway again, somewhere in a faraway continent to be named later, we can be sure that new viruses will be waiting in the wings.

https://www.city-journal.org/1957-asian-flu-pandemic
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Mark F on Sun May 03, 2020 2:43 pm

When the coronavirus finally runs its course, one of the most important tasks for health-care officials will be to determine whether the preventive measures we’re taking today were effective. Did deploying the National Guard save lives, or did it simply expose the soldiers to an infection that, in the end, could not be stopped? Did we pay too high a price for tanking our economy and disrupting our society?

Personally, I would not believe the reports anyway. Too many "officials" have discredited themselves already. I believe this to have been a politically motivated killing of our economy, for the liberals, no price is too high to defeat Trump.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby 4givenmuch on Sun May 03, 2020 5:48 pm

Personally, I would not believe the reports anyway. Too many "officials" have discredited themselves already. I believe this to have been a politically motivated killing of our economy, for the liberals, no price is too high to defeat Trump.


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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Jericho on Sun May 03, 2020 8:08 pm

Today, thanks to vaccines, fewer and fewer people remember what it was like to survive a succession of childhood diseases. Is the unfamiliar threat of serious sickness making us more afraid of Covid-19 than we need to be? Does a society that relies more on politics than faith now find itself in an uncomfortable bind, unable to lecture, browbeat, intimidate, or evade the incorrect behavior of a dangerous microbe?


I think this really hits the nail on the head. People who lived before vaccines were invented lived with far more viruses that could kill them or leave them paralyzed, yet it didn't stop them from living their life. For them it was a normal part of life whereas we are not unaccustomed to it. We have been somewhat insulated from those things thanks to modern medicine. That explains to me the overreaction to this virus.
Last edited by Jericho on Mon May 04, 2020 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby bchandler on Mon May 04, 2020 1:47 am

I also believe the lack of faith, and general level of narcissism in our society help to explain this over-reaction.
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Loop on Mon May 04, 2020 5:32 am

I think this really hits the nail on the head. People who lived before vaccines were invented lived with far more viruses that could kill them or leave them paralyzed


I think maybe the fear of this one was that "most" believe it to be germ warfare or "genetically manipulated"...
Everyone here I've talked to thinks so...
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1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Happydaddy on Mon May 04, 2020 2:46 pm

Jericho wrote:
Today, thanks to vaccines, fewer and fewer people remember what it was like to survive a succession of childhood diseases. Is the unfamiliar threat of serious sickness making us more afraid of Covid-19 than we need to be? Does a society that relies more on politics than faith now find itself in an uncomfortable bind, unable to lecture, browbeat, intimidate, or evade the incorrect behavior of a dangerous microbe?


I think this really hits the nail on the head. People who lived before vaccines were invented lived with far more viruses that could kill them or leave them paralyzed, yet it didn't stop them from living their life. For them it was a normal part of life whereas we are not unaccustomed to it. We have been somewhat insulated from those things thanks to modern medicine. That explains to me the overreaction to this virus.



So, help me understand something I have struggled to understand about God and faith. So many have said that God is bringing all of creation to a point that we have to rely on Him if we won't voluntarily do it in our modern convenienced world. I get that, but what I struggle to understand is in Gods Providence some situations may not pan out the way we would want if we "let go and let God." I think of the churches that don't take meds and vaccines because they want God to deliver them. Aren't they doing what I said in the beginning of the question by allowing things to play out and allow God to rescue? I'm not saying that taking a med altered Gods providence for someones life. He can take it whenever He pleases. I don't understand how much we are to rely on technology, pastors advice over the straight Word, meds over faith, etc. Does this make any sense to the forum what I'm trying to express? It can open a whole can of worms. For instance there is a preacher on here that I think some of you all like and I really like a lot. On politics he believes we shouldn't engage too much because things are going to play out the way they should. I believe that when it comes to eschatology. Gods will for the end days is going to play out so why should we fight the world system. It's going to come whether we like it or not and we should be overjoyed for it. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Jericho on Tue May 05, 2020 8:00 pm

Hi Happydaddy,

I can give you my perspective for what it's worth. I know some will disagree with me on this, but I don't believe God is in control of all things. If He were then the earth wouldn't be in the mess it is in now. God is in control of heaven, but Satan is the god of this world. One day that will change, but for now we live in a fallen world and there is a battle going on. However, we are not mere pawns in this war but also active participants. God uses men and women who are willing to advance His kingdom on earth, and if they don't do it then it won't get done. Likewise, Satan also uses human proxies to advance his kingdom on earth. As I said, it's a war going on and our choices matter.

There are some things set in stone, such as God's word. When God says He's going to do something then it will happen, no ifs or buts about it. But in between those things a lot of what happens is the result of our actions. As such, I'm not one to let things come what may. That's a good recipe for totalitarianism and persecution. We are supposed to occupy until He comes and be the salt of the earth. Salt acts as a preservative and we are to do the same. We all have a mission and a purpose on this earth, but it's up to us if we fulfill it or not. God only opens the door, but it's up to us to walk through it.

As for things like modern medicine and technology, I am not opposed to those things. God gave us the intellect and resources to come up with them, so why not use them. And I see nothing wrong with mixing faith with medicine. The error is putting all of our faith in medicine, science, technology or whatever, because they all have limitations and none of them can give eternal life.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu May 07, 2020 11:45 am

Mark F wrote: I believe this to have been a politically motivated killing of our economy, for the liberals, no price is too high to defeat Trump.


Very profound comment.

I would hate to think that men would put politics over human lives in order to destroy one man. Very honestly, this sounds pretty absurd.

Believers should somehow understand that eventually there will be a time when we have moved into the Tribulation period. It's not about money, the economy, or political views. We don't belong to this Fallen World. Believers should never put their hope in a man; money; position; title or power they may hold. Seems to me in looking at society as a whole - when things disrupt the balance of "comfort" or the status quo of everyday living; instead of looking vertical we begin to look at our own personal circumstances, forgetting that we have a Savior.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu May 07, 2020 11:50 am

Jericho wrote:I know some will disagree with me on this, but I don't believe God is in control of all things. If He were then the earth wouldn't be in the mess it is in now.


:humm:

Well, not that it may matter to anyone, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. If God isn't in Control - then who is?

Sometimes I think man has a tendency to not understand what Sovereignty is - and how it applies to God.

God is it TOTAL Control - and I if one doesn't understand that, then many aspects of life as a whole is subject to total misunderstanding.

Satan does what he does on this Earth ONLY because God allows it. There are no exceptions to this. Because if God is not in control - then He would not be God.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Jericho on Thu May 07, 2020 6:42 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Well, not that it may matter to anyone, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. If God isn't in Control - then who is?


Mr Baldy, I knew you would disagree because we had this discussion not long ago. God in His sovereignty turned a lot of control over to Adam, and by extension all humanity, to govern this world. Adam in turn gave a lot of control over to Satan when he fell. That's why Satan is called the god of this world. I think you underestimate the degree of free will involved. If God is truly in control of all things and our choices don't matter, then God would be a sadist for allowing evil and suffering to exist.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri May 08, 2020 5:50 am

Jericho wrote:Mr Baldy, I knew you would disagree because we had this discussion not long ago. God in His sovereignty turned a lot of control over to Adam, and by extension all humanity, to govern this world. Adam in turn gave a lot of control over to Satan when he fell. That's why Satan is called the god of this world. I think you underestimate the degree of free will involved. If God is truly in control of all things and our choices don't matter, then God would be a sadist for allowing evil and suffering to exist.


Hi Jericho -

Yes we disagree.

You have mentioned that you "think" I underestimate the degree of "free will" involved. Actually, I don't. I understand free will - and you have proved my point when you wrote: "God in His Sovereignty turned a lot of control over" - well, in order to have the authority to turn something over - you have to be in control of it in the first place.

In God's Sovereignty He is Perfect in Everything - His Will reflects the very essence of who He is. Also in God's Sovereignty, He has what most call "permissive will" - in that He allows certain things to occur; to include sin. That's what we see happening in the current World we live in today. This does not negate the fact that He is in control. It would also be a good idea to understand that just because a man commits sin, doesn't mean he's not responsible for the sin he commits. Paul makes this very clear in the example he gave in Romans 9:14-24:

Romans 9:14-24 - New American Standard Bible

14) What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15) For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19) You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23) And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


The aforementioned verses of Scripture should leave no doubt as to who is in control.

In closing - Adam did not have the "authority" to give Satan anything. If Adam had the authority to give Satan control - then he would most certainly have had the authority to take it back. Adam is not God. Satan is the God of this Fallen World ONLY because God allowed it. It was Jesus - God in the flesh who came into this Fallen World to redeem mankind through His Death - and had the Sovereign Authority as God to Raise Himself up from Death. This was the Sovereign plan of God before the foundation of the Universe.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Jericho on Fri May 08, 2020 8:07 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:In closing - Adam did not have the "authority" to give Satan anything. If Adam had the authority to give Satan control - then he would most certainly have had the authority to take it back. Adam is not God. Satan is the God of this Fallen World ONLY because God allowed it. It was Jesus - God in the flesh who came into this Fallen World to redeem mankind through His Death - and had the Sovereign Authority as God to Raise Himself up from Death. This was the Sovereign plan of God before the foundation of the Universe.


When Satan tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world, that claim of ownership was never contested by Jesus, and Satan could not tempt Jesus with something he did not have. Jesus acknowledged in Matthew 12:26 that Lucifer does indeed have a kingdom. For this reason, Lucifer is now called the god of this world (2Cr 4:4). Likewise, the apostle John says the whole world is under the control of the evil one (1Jo 5:19). In Ephesians 2:2, Lucifer is called the prince of the power of the air.

Here's how I see it, and I'll use an analogy for the sake of simplicity. God is like a landlord. He owns planet earth but he has given us dominion over it for a specified period of time, much like tenants. Tenants occupy a building but they don't own it. However, when Adam fell he allowed Satan to become a squatter on planet earth. God will reclaim the earth after a specific period of time, but not before then. God can do anything, yes, but He is also bound by His word. God gave Adam dominion over the whole world and He's not going to take that back just because Adam fell and allowed Satan to set up shop, so to speak.

Mr Baldy wrote:Satan is the God of this Fallen World ONLY because God allowed it. It was Jesus


So why did God allow it? And why hasn't He took it back?
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Ready1 on Fri May 08, 2020 9:17 pm

Jericho wrote: And why hasn't He took it back?


Patience; that's what we are waiting for. :grin: :grin:

Luk_21:19  In your patience possess ye your souls.
Just observing.

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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby GodsStudent on Wed May 13, 2020 4:24 pm

I dont like getting into the discussions that end with me feeling like my illness is God's Will, because He controls all that goes on with earth. I'm sure those with cancer and other illnesses and losses would agree with me on that one....I know God could heal me and boatfulls of other people, but if God was "into" all of that, I think we'de know it by now.
God allowed satan to test Job, but wouldn't allow him to kill Job. God allows quite a bit in this day and time, too....
We dont always get what we deserve, and sometimes we don't get what we deserve....
but I believe firmly that for whatever reason, God does not intimately involve himself with much that goes on with earth's inhabitants. I have prayed quite some time to have my broken nervous system healed, and it has not happened....but I hear from the Lord on other matters, sometimes with frequency....so I trust and believe I am His and that He cares for me.

As far as taking my chances with the virus....not happening.....others are free to choose as they may. I go out very little, and when I do, I don gloves and a mask....for my safety as well as for other's safety. I believe we take advantage of the knowledge we have, and I know several people now who either have this virus or have died as a result of getting it. That's enough to convince me that I need to do what I can to be safe while out with others.

Sure....say prayers....I do that, too. As a matter of fact, i pray over my entire house with respect to this virus....so, I say, cover your bases, including saying your prayers and acting accordingly while in the face of a germ that likes to invade the fleshly body my soul needs to reside in while on this side of heaven.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed May 13, 2020 5:22 pm

GodsStudent wrote:I believe firmly that for whatever reason, God does not intimately involve himself with much that goes on with earth's inhabitants.


Really sorry you feel this way Lisa -

What would you say about this passage of Scripture:

Hebrews 13:2 - New American Standard Bible

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.


As we know - Angels are messengers of God. They don't present here on Earth or intervene in the affairs of men unless He sends them.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby GodsStudent on Wed May 20, 2020 9:12 pm

I would say that scripture has absolutely nothing to do with what IWas talking about. ...and I would reassert that I am born again, and living proof that people don’t always get what they deserve, and that coin falls both ways.....babies with cancer....even little ones dying of the same.....is proof that what I said is true indeed....God doesn’t fix all things for all believers.....and we don’t know why, but we certainly don’t need to be told that someone feels sorry for us......for knowing what we say is true.
I am thru a lot of my struggling to accept the extreme physical pain I live with, and becoming tolerant of the idea that I have to accept the scientists treatmentss for what ails me....ie the medical opinions you spoke of so highly in another thread....because without them, I would not be able to have ANY quality of life....and with that comes the hope God will choose to heal me, but I refuse to accept that He isn’t aware this is going on with me. Indeed this means He allowed it, and doesn't fix everything for us, or involve Himself in everything concerning us. I know this for a fact, because I have prayed, followed scriptural instructions (oils, etc).....read countless articles and listened to countless sermons, and after all of this, YES, I am speaking with some genuine experience and knowledge when I say what I said, which is, God does not involve Himself with every little thing on earth every single time. Why and how all this works is not mine to know at this time, but if you truly feel sorry for me, don't smack me over the head with a scripture, offer your sincere condolences and comment on what you know and want to say on the subject, not on how YOU JUDGE what I have to say on it.
Sending angels is a fact of scripture.....I have met, and known it to be true, His angels on a few occasions....but none of those encounters had a thing to do with what I was speaking about, or am speaking about now....so frankly, where do your platitudes leave me? Do you think I have so little discernment that I do not know to be paying attention to my surroundings, because if that be the case, how would I know I have been in the company of His angels??? I am always paying AS GOOD ATTENTION AS YOU ARE (see your comments in the "Whatever" thread which said, and I am quoting your comments there

"....Exactly - I believe in Jesus Christ.

Our Lord has given man the wisdom to learn science and gather facts and evidence based on proven truths. He has also given us a sound mind to discern matters in this Fallen World over "feelings; emotions; thoughts; hidden agendas and to identify personal self-serving motives."

Give me a good reason why you feel sorry for me (demonstrate it to me, for once, in a way that doesn't make me feel like I just got slapped in the face)...and this time, do better, show me where you are right that all I need to do is have more faith or pray harder And believe in the visit from angels.....and also address and account to those with all the wanted and loved babies, and children and even God loving and fearing Christians who need encouragement, want cures, and knows like me that God didn’t and doesn’t always insert Himself into all that ails and even kills us....and.... If you can’t do that, then frankly, apologize for your rude comments.....for once.

I don't require you critique my posts, but for pete's sake, if you feel the need, then just use some common courtesy, be respectful, mindful, and make some good sense.....man.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu May 21, 2020 4:00 am

GodsStudent wrote:Give me a good reason why you feel sorry for me


Hi Lisa -

As I read your deeply emotional remarks - I see that you have taken my statement out of context. Here is what I said:

Mr Baldy wrote:Really sorry you feel this way Lisa


As you can see, I stated I feel sorry that you feel this way - as in to say that I'm sorry you feel the way you do about what you have experienced. I never said I "feel sorry for you" - which in some circumstances can come across as being rude or condescending. If you feel that I have made a personal attack against you - well again, I'm sorry you feel that way. I did not make a personal attack towards you.

The words I say to people or in any given written correspondence is never intended to be a personal attack. I hate to reveal a certain part of my character - but people are not so important to me as to attack them personally, nor do they have a certain level of power in my life that I care what they think or say about me.

As far as the comments I made in the other post - well, there were no personal attacks there either. Sometimes we internalize things that are not personal. If an understanding about the comments others have made are unclear, then I believe clarification is in order - and perhaps one may need to ask that person for clarity, before getting so emotionally unwind that it results in unwarranted backlash towards the other person.

Your response appears to be an attack towards me - well, all I can say is God Bless you Lisa. May He open up your understanding; give you health, peace and safety in your life.
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Re: Say Your Prayers and Take Your Chances

Postby GodsStudent on Thu May 21, 2020 7:23 am

Im sorry you feel that way, Mr. Baldy.
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