Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Discussion not limited to prophecy.

Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:45 am

Here is an interesting article from "The National Interest:

By Timothy Joseph

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ire-121346

" Trump's Impeachment Is Just Like The Fall Of the Roman Empire

The U.S Senate has made its judgment in the impeachment trial of President Donald Trump, acquitting the president. Fifty two of 53 senators in the Republican majority voted to acquit the president on the abuse of power charge and all 53 Republican senators voted to acquit on the obstruction of Congress charge.

All 47 Democratic senators voted to convict the president on both charges. Senator Mitt Romney of Utah was the only Republican voting to convict for abuse of power.

The Republican senators' speedy exoneration of Trump marks perhaps the most dramatic step in their capitulation to the president over the past three years.

That process, as I wrote in The Conversation last fall, recalls the ancient Roman senate's compliance with the autocratic rule of the emperors and its transformation into a body largely reliant on the emperors' whims.

Along with the senatorial fealty that was again on display, there was another development that links the era of the Roman Republic's transformation into an autocratic state with the ongoing political developments in the United States. It's a development that may point to were the country is headed.

Leader is the state

Trump's lawyers argued that the president's personal position is inseparable from that of the nation itself. This is similar to the notion that took hold during the ascendancy of the man known as Rome's first emperor, Augustus, who was in power from 31 B.C. to A.D. 14.

Trump defense attorney Alan Dershowitz asserted that "abuse of power" by the president is not an impeachable offense. A central part of Dershowitz's argument was that "ever public official that I know believes that his election is in he public interest" and that "if a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment."

This inability to separate the personal interests of a leader from the interests of the country he or she leads has powerful echoes in ancient Rome.

There, no formal charge from a republican system to an autocratic system ever occurred. Rather, there was an erosion of the republican institutions, a steady creep over decades of authoritarian decision-making, and the consolidation of power within one individual - all with the same "Republic" preserved.

Oversight becomes harassment

Much of ?Rome's decline into one-man rule can be observed in a series of developments during the time of Augustus, who held no formal monarchical title but only the vague designation "princeps," or "first among equals."

But in fact the senate had ceded him both power ("imperium" in Latin) over Rome's military and the traditional tribune's power to veto legislation. Each of these powers also granted him immunity from prosecution. He was above the law.

Augustus' position thus gave him exactly the freedom from oversight - or that Trump calls "presidential harassment" - that the president demands. Such immunity is also the sort that Richard Nixon seemed to long for, most famously in his post-presidency declaration that "when he president does it, that means that it is not illegal."

In Augustus' time the idea also emerged that the "princeps" and the Roman state were to a great extent one and the same. The identity of the one was growing t become inseparable from the identity of the other.

So, for example, under August and the his successor Tiberius, insults against the emperor could be considered acts of treason against the state, or, more officially, against "the majesty of the Roman people."

A critic of the "princeps" - be it in unflattering words or in the improper treatment of his image - was subject to prosecution as an "enemy of the people."

A physical demonstration of the emerging union of the "princeps" and the state came in the construction of a Temple of Roma and Augustus in cities across the Mediterranean region.

Here the personification of the state as a goddess, Roma, and the "princeps" Augustus were closely aligned and, what is more, deified together. The message communicated by such a pairing was clear: If not quite one and the same, the "princeps" and the state were Intimately identified, possessing a special, abiding authority through their union.

Many higher-ups in the Trump administration, from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to former Secretary of Energy Rick Perry to former Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders, have spoken publicly of Trump as a divinely chosen figure. And Trump himself declared earlier hi year, "I do really believe we have God on our side."

To this point, however, a Temple of Lady Liberty and Trump along the lines of the Temple of Roma and Augustus has not yet been constructed.

But the Senate impeachment trial has shown us how far along the identification of leader ad state has move in the Trump era. A central part of the president's impeachment defense is, as we have seen, that the personal will of the president is indistinguishable from the will of the state and the good of the people.

Will the GOP-led Senate's endorsement of this defense clear a path for more of the manifestations - and consequences - of authoritarianism? The case o the Roman Republic's rapid slippage into an autocratic regime masquerading as a republic shows how easily that transformation can occur."

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ire-121346

Are we seeing History repeat itself :humm:
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:24 am

Who is this guy anyway? Was he one of the professors called as witnesses by the Dems?
Anyone is entitled to his opinion I guess.

Blessings,

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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:28 pm

Hi Mr Baldy,

Such things began long before Trump was in office.

We will have to wait to see if we are indeed at a point like the ancient Roman Republic.

It is possible.
We may be at a fork in the road where we determine which way we go, Imperialist or Socialist.
If we are at such a fork, then the road of the republic is behind us and we must face the choices of what is in front of us and choose.

Keith
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:15 pm

keithareilly wrote:Hi Mr Baldy,


We may be at a fork in the road where we determine which way we go, Imperialist or Socialist.

If we are at such a fork, then the road of the republic is behind us and we must face the choices of what is in front of us and choose.

Keith


"If we are at such fork," really Keith?

If we can't recognize that President Trump is trying to "turn this ship" around and get us back on the right path
as a representative republic, then we are really in trouble.

And we'll know for sure that we are in trouble if a Socialist is elected in 2020. God help us!

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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:10 pm

Sonbeam wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Hi Mr Baldy,


We may be at a fork in the road where we determine which way we go, Imperialist or Socialist.

If we are at such a fork, then the road of the republic is behind us and we must face the choices of what is in front of us and choose.

Keith


"If we are at such fork," really Keith?

If we can't recognize that President Trump is trying to "turn this ship" around and get us back on the right path
as a representative republic, then we are really in trouble.

And we'll know for sure that we are in trouble if a Socialist is elected in 2020. God help us!

sonbeam


Hi Sonbeam,

Trump is indeed trying turning the ship around.
But, turning the ship may not result in going back on the original course settings.
Time will tell.

Keith
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Jericho on Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:26 pm

I have made many comparisons between the Roman Empire and America before, but using this impeachment as an example of it is a stretch to me, if not hyperbole imo.

The Republican senators' speedy exoneration of Trump marks perhaps the most dramatic step in their capitulation to the president over the past three years.


Could it be the Republicans heard all the "evidence" (or lack there of) that the Democrats presented and concluded nothing he did was an impeachable offense? An impeachment has serious implications for the country. Only two prior presidents were impeached and neither was removed from office. Any impeachment should have bi-partisan support. But the votes, with the exception of Romney, were straight down party lines. This was pure partisan politics.

What they were accusing the president of doing is exactly what they are guilty of. They said he was trying to influence the election, even though that allegation was completely inferred. But the whole point of impeachment was to influence the 2020 election in their favor.. They knew the Republicans held the Senate and it would never pass. They just wanted to damage him as much as possible between now and then.

So at the time of this writing it's looking like Bernie Sanders, an avowed socialist, could very well be the Democrat nominee. This is the same man who spent his honeymoon in the Soviet Union and said bread lines aren't so bad. If this happens America will have to decide, will it live under the free markets or will it live under socialism. So I ask, which one of these outcomes is more likely to produce a dictatorship? Four more years with pro-Capitalist Trump, or four to eight years with a socialist as the president? The answer seems pretty obvious to me.

Many higher-ups in the Trump administration, from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo to former Secretary of Energy Rick Perry to former Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders, have spoken publicly of Trump as a divinely chosen figure. And Trump himself declared earlier hi year, "I do really believe we have God on our side."


I know there are some who believe this, but I've always said we shouldn't put our faith in man. But where was this guy when Obama was around? Obama was routinely portrayed as a messiah-like figure with a halo around his head. Louis Fahrakhan said "when Obama speaks you are hearing the voice of the Messiah." So both sides do this.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:39 pm

:a3: to every word Jericho!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:20 am

I do not think the impeachment is a good comparison either.

It is not about the impeachment itself. It is about the shift in power from the left to the right.

The judicial branch is being moved to the right under Trump judge appointments.
The impeachment has aligned more senators with Trump and fewer republican senators supported impeachment than the left thought. So the left sees the judicial system moving to the right, the senate further right than they thought, and Trump not removed from office with his support numbers rising and fear he will be re-elected and elected with the coat tails presenting the possibility of retaking the house.


So, if the right takes over all branches of government, what types of gerrymandering agendas might be executed that keeps them in power.

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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:35 pm

keithareilly wrote:Trump is indeed trying turning the ship around. But, turning the ship may not result in going back on the original course settings.Time will tell.


Hi Keith -

I believe your aforementioned comment is the gist of what the article I posted was about.

I want to emphasize that this is not about any particular political party - and I hope that we can stay focused on that, and pay attention to the FACTS. It's very easy to become very emotional about political things - as it appears if the entire Worlds focus is about Politics. Believers must stay focused on Christ.

Scripture mentions Antichrist coming to power - I hope that we never loose focus on that as well. Something about the Worlds paradigm has to change or shift in order for this lone man to rule the entire World. Strange things are happening Globally.

I'm hoping as a group of Believers we can stay away from the Political Rhetoric; not get caught up in the hype; and take notes on what's going on - lest the emotions of it all overtake us and blind us to the facts.

As Keith has mentioned - "Time Will Tell."
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:23 pm

Mr Baldy,

For such a shift a world government must be in greater power than it is now. Globalists are the ones with that agenda.
While Trump has a nationalist agenda, his strength in office is a great example for a future globalist president.
It will be interesting to see what happens to this country if the republicans take back the house while keeping the senate and the presidency.

During his first two years in office, the republicans were not aligned with him. They did not align with him till they lost the house and started actually making changes they liked. Now, for the most part, they back him.


Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

Observe Christ takes over the kingdom of this world. It does not say he takes over the plural, kingdoms, of this world.
It appears, until their is one kingdom ruling the planet, Christ will not return.

Keith
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:40 am

keithareilly wrote:While Trump has a nationalist agenda, his strength in office is a great example for a future globalist president.


keithareilly wrote:During his first two years in office, the republicans were not aligned with him. They did not align with him till they lost the house and started actually making changes they liked. Now, for the most part, they back him.


Interesting comments.

I believe what also may be important to note are the actions Trump takes. Looking at this from a non-partisan perspective I think that we have to view how the Constitution plays a role in some of the decisions he has made. I believe that he really is trying to keep America First - however, it "appears" as if he thinks he's the only person that can do this. Keep an eye on this development.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:50 am

Yep,

Post World War II, this country was about rebuilding the world and making it safer, especially with the emergence of nuclear weapons. Many of the policies have allowed the world to rebuild and those policies continue to be used even through the countries that needed that help post World War II no longer need them. The post world war II world is now past and our policies need to shift from building a different world to building and defending our country. Globalists want the policies to continue as they want a globalist government.

Many people want democracy world wide. I do not.

If you want to live under sharia law, I support your freedom to live that way; but, I want it to be in a different country.
If you want to be a socialist, then live in a socialist country, not here.
The globalist agenda does not support such diversity; they want everyone under one power, one government.

Trump is an anomaly, when he is gone, the globalist return to power.

Keith
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Jericho on Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:50 am

Globalists see global government as the next logical step in our development. We transcended from tribalism to the nation state. But World War 1 & 2 and advent of nuclear weapons exposed the vulnerability of nation states. The elites believe that a global government will bring about world peace. That utopian fantasy is what drives them. The great flaw, however, in globalism is that there would be no one to oppose a dictator if he came to power. And this is exactly what the Bible prophesies will happen.

Trump is an anomaly, when he is gone, the globalist return to power.


Don't forget Boris in the UK and Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil. They are all very nationalistic governments. I'd say that fight isn't over yet. There are growing sentiments of nationalism even within Europe itself. France came very close to electing a nationalist president. I do believe the Bible foretells of a global government and that globalism will win out in the end. But it will be a bitter sweet victory that will last but a short time, and when it falls it wont be because of man's doing but because of God himself intervening.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:36 pm

StarTrek, the science fiction series of the 1960's claimed numerous planets under a "federation". And the series was full of plots about the world at the time. The Klingon's were those who "Kling" to militarism, imperialism, and communism; it also had a socialist perspective.

Hollywood and Science Fiction since the 50's has been supporting monopolistic powers.
My favorite is Isaac Asimov "Foundation" Series about one monopolistic power decaying and being replaced by another emerging hidden monopolistic power agenda. It also had the deep state represented by near immortal Robots working behind the scenes in secrecy.

Fun read.

Kind of gives you an idea how long we have been being indoctrinated.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:52 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,

For such a shift a world government must be in greater power than it is now. Globalists are the ones with that agenda.
While Trump has a nationalist agenda, his strength in office is a great example for a future globalist president.
It will be interesting to see what happens to this country if the republicans take back the house while keeping the senate and the presidency.

During his first two years in office, the republicans were not aligned with him. They did not align with him till they lost the house and started actually making changes they liked. Now, for the most part, they back him.


Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

Observe Christ takes over the kingdom of this world. It does not say he takes over the plural, kingdoms, of this world.
It appears, until their is one kingdom ruling the planet, Christ will not return.

Keith


KJV has the plural, kingdoms. I believe it should be the plural, just sayn
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:30 am

Sonbeam wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Hi Mr Baldy,


We may be at a fork in the road where we determine which way we go, Imperialist or Socialist.

If we are at such a fork, then the road of the republic is behind us and we must face the choices of what is in front of us and choose.

Keith


"If we are at such fork," really Keith?

If we can't recognize that President Trump is trying to "turn this ship" around and get us back on the right path
as a representative republic, then we are really in trouble.

And we'll know for sure that we are in trouble if a Socialist is elected in 2020. God help us!

sonbeam


:clap2: :thankyou:
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:35 pm

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


Martin Niemöller

Martin Niemöller wrote this poem describing the Fascist behavior in Germany during the rise of the Nazi's.

Much of the fear of Trump is his wording about illegals as all "criminals", which they are for crossing illegally, and how such statements are similar with Nazi statements and behavior and how Trumps aggression about removing them aligns with going after particular ideologies that oppose his ideology. After the impeachment, Trump has become much more aggressive going after his ideological opponents. This again adds to the fear Trump is behaving similar to Fascism in pursuing his ideological enemies.

Notice the poem, Socialist and Trade Unions supporters were opposing Fascist ideologies and also oppose right wing ideologies. This in part prompts leftist who support both those ideologies to fear Trump is indeed a Fascist.

The thing is: Trump was elected by the people to drain the swamp, that is, go after the ideologues who do not support fundamental american principles. What this means is Trump is going after the Ideological opponents of the people who put him in office as Fascists went after the ideologues who opposed them.

The question is: Can Trump drain the swamp without crossing the line regarding the Constitutional separation of powers, or, is he willing to cross those lines, with the support of the republicans, to accomplish draining the swamp resulting in a side affect of setting a precedent which undermines the separation of powers thus increasing the powers of the presidential office?

If he can drain the swamp without crossing the line, then we are back on course,
If he cannot drain the swamp yet refuses to cross the line, we become a socialist nation,
if he cannot drain the swamp and crosses the lines, we move to imperialism as in the fall of the Roman Republic.


Again, time will tell.

Keith
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:05 pm

keithareilly wrote:The thing is: Trump was elected by the people to drain the swamp, that is, go after the ideologues who do not support fundamental american principles.


keithareilly wrote:The question is: Can Trump drain the swamp without crossing the line regarding the Constitutional separation of powers, or, is he willing to cross those lines, with the support of the republicans, to accomplish draining the swamp resulting in a side affect of setting a precedent which undermines the separation of powers and increased powers of the presidential office?


Excellent Question :clap2:

keithareilly wrote:If he can drain the swamp without crossing the line, then we are back on course


Agree

keithareilly wrote:If he cannot drain the swamp yet refuses to cross the line, we become a socialist nation


I believe we are headed towards Socialism whether we like it or not - one way or another - and sooner than most think.

keithareilly wrote:if he cannot drain the swamp and crosses the lines, we move to imperialism as in the fall of the Roman Republic.


If you are referring to "imperialism" as having a sphere of influence - in that the Leader of this Country will have absolute sovereignty and power over the people, I believe that we are heading in that direction.

Below is an Article which is not new - but just food for thought as we see partisan lines battle for control and power:

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4825 ... rity-bills
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Jericho on Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:55 pm

...and how such statements are similar with Nazi statements and behavior and how Trumps aggression about removing them aligns with going after particular ideologies that oppose his ideology.


They keep trying to make a connection between Trump and his supporters to Nazis by portraying the Nazis as far right. In actually, the Nazis were socialists. They nationalized all public companies, nationalized education & healthcare, and controlled the press and freedom of speech, among other things. The Nazis had far more in common with the Left than the Right.

After the impeachment, Trump has become much more aggressive going after his ideological opponents.


I would too if they tried to impeach me from day one, for no other reason than not liking me. And then there was the endless Russian Collusion investigations that turned up nothing. I would certainly understand the frustration.

This again adds to the fear Trump is behaving similar to Fascism in pursuing his ideological enemies.


Fascism has its origins in Italy during Benito Mussolini's dictatorship. The root word for fascism comes from the Latin word "Fasces" which means a bundle of sticks. The idea is that a bundle of sticks is stronger than a single stick, or in other words there is strength in numbers. The symbol of fascism was a bundle of sticks bound together with an axe. The implication is fascism and violence go hand in hand.

Trump hasn't been violent towards his enemies, and this isn't generally a trait of the right. On the other hand, the Left does believe in violence against their enemies. We've seen this on college campuses where Conservatives need police protection just to speak, and people wearing MAGA hats are accosted all the time. Just recently someone drove their van into a group of volunteers in Florida, barley missing them, just because he hated Trump.

If you've read my 2016 posts I was not a fan of Trump. In fact, I was very much against him, though I did "reluctantly" vote for him. In retrospect, I have no regrets. I still don't necessarily agree with everything he say or does, but he's done a lot of things I've liked. It certainly hasn't been disastrous as some were saying. The economy is up and unemployment has been down at record lows. The antics of the Democrats, on the other hand, have driven many, including myself, in his corner.

The thing is: Trump was elected by the people to drain the swamp, that is, go after the ideologues who do not support fundamental american principles. What this means is Trump is going after the Ideological opponents of the people who put him in office as Fascists went after the ideologues who opposed them.


This is really bigger than Trump. One man can only do so much. In a few years he will be out of office, but his presidency exposes the greater ideological divide at work. Half the people want to take the country in one direction, and half want to take it another. It has become an ideological chasm to wide the cross. This is the greatest threat to our country. A nation divided cannot stand. Abraham Lincoln said, "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." This is exactly what is happening. Coincidentally, they say the average of civilizations are about 200 years. If that's the case, we're overdue.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:05 am

Jericho wrote:
...and how such statements are similar with Nazi statements and behavior and how Trumps aggression about removing them aligns with going after particular ideologies that oppose his ideology.


They keep trying to make a connection between Trump and his supporters to Nazis by portraying the Nazis as far right. In actually, the Nazis were socialists. They nationalized all public companies, nationalized education & healthcare, and controlled the press and freedom of speech, among other things. The Nazis had far more in common with the Left than the Right.

After the impeachment, Trump has become much more aggressive going after his ideological opponents.


I would too if they tried to impeach me from day one, for no other reason than not liking me. And then there was the endless Russian Collusion investigations that turned up nothing. I would certainly understand the frustration.

This again adds to the fear Trump is behaving similar to Fascism in pursuing his ideological enemies.


Fascism has its origins in Italy during Benito Mussolini's dictatorship. The root word for fascism comes from the Latin word "Fasces" which means a bundle of sticks. The idea is that a bundle of sticks is stronger than a single stick, or in other words there is strength in numbers. The symbol of fascism was a bundle of sticks bound together with an axe. The implication is fascism and violence go hand in hand.

Trump hasn't been violent towards his enemies, and this isn't generally a trait of the right. On the other hand, the Left does believe in violence against their enemies. We've seen this on college campuses where Conservatives need police protection just to speak, and people wearing MAGA hats are accosted all the time. Just recently someone drove their van into a group of volunteers in Florida, barley missing them, because he hated Trump.

If you've read my 2016 posts I was not a fan of Trump. In fact, I was very much against him, though I did "reluctantly" vote for him. In retrospect, I have no regrets. I still don't necessarily agree with everything he say or does, but he's done a lot of things I've liked. It certainly hasn't been disastrous as some were saying. The economy is up and unemployment has been down at record lows. The antics of the Democrats, on the other hand, have driven many, including myself, in his corner.

The thing is: Trump was elected by the people to drain the swamp, that is, go after the ideologues who do not support fundamental american principles. What this means is Trump is going after the Ideological opponents of the people who put him in office as Fascists went after the ideologues who opposed them.


This is really bigger than Trump. One man can only do so much. In a few years he will be out of office, but his presidency exposes the greater ideological divide at work. Half the people want to take the country in one direction, and half want to take it another. It has become an ideological chasm to wide the cross. This is the greatest threat to our country. A nation divided cannot stand. Abraham Lincoln said, "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." This is exactly what is happening. Coincidentally, they say the average of civilizations are about 200 years. In that case, were about due.


Great post Jericho. We are on the same page.

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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:48 am

keithareilly wrote:First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


Martin Niemöller

Martin Niemöller wrote this poem describing the Fascist behavior in Germany during the rise of the Nazi's.

Much of the fear of Trump is his wording about illegals as all "criminals", which they are for crossing illegally, and how such statements are similar with Nazi statements and behavior and how Trumps aggression about removing them aligns with going after particular ideologies that oppose his ideology. After the impeachment, Trump has become much more aggressive going after his ideological opponents. This again adds to the fear Trump is behaving similar to Fascism in pursuing his ideological enemies.

Keith


I can't believe you posted the above Keith. While you might be on the fence (it seems to me by your posts) regarding this President, this IMO feeds into the hate and viciousness exhibited by the far left towards the President.

As far as the President removing illegal immigrants for their "ideologies" (or perhaps you meant the liberals' ideology), either way, the President is removing them because they are breaking the law when they come here illegally. It's that simple.

By the way, regarding your citing the President a having described illegals as all "criminals" can you cite a specific quote. I couldn't find one.

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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:11 am

Jericho wrote:
...and how such statements are similar with Nazi statements and behavior and how Trumps aggression about removing them aligns with going after particular ideologies that oppose his ideology.


They keep trying to make a connection between Trump and his supporters to Nazis by portraying the Nazis as far right. In actually, the Nazis were socialists. They nationalized all public companies, nationalized education & healthcare, and controlled the press and freedom of speech, among other things. The Nazis had far more in common with the Left than the Right.

After the impeachment, Trump has become much more aggressive going after his ideological opponents.


I would too if they tried to impeach me from day one, for no other reason than not liking me. And then there was the endless Russian Collusion investigations that turned up nothing. I would certainly understand the frustration.

This again adds to the fear Trump is behaving similar to Fascism in pursuing his ideological enemies.


Fascism has its origins in Italy during Benito Mussolini's dictatorship. The root word for fascism comes from the Latin word "Fasces" which means a bundle of sticks. The idea is that a bundle of sticks is stronger than a single stick, or in other words there is strength in numbers. The symbol of fascism was a bundle of sticks bound together with an axe. The implication is fascism and violence go hand in hand.

Trump hasn't been violent towards his enemies, and this isn't generally a trait of the right. On the other hand, the Left does believe in violence against their enemies. We've seen this on college campuses where Conservatives need police protection just to speak, and people wearing MAGA hats are accosted all the time. Just recently someone drove their van into a group of volunteers in Florida, barley missing them, just because he hated Trump.

If you've read my 2016 posts I was not a fan of Trump. In fact, I was very much against him, though I did "reluctantly" vote for him. In retrospect, I have no regrets. I still don't necessarily agree with everything he say or does, but he's done a lot of things I've liked. It certainly hasn't been disastrous as some were saying. The economy is up and unemployment has been down at record lows. The antics of the Democrats, on the other hand, have driven many, including myself, in his corner.

The thing is: Trump was elected by the people to drain the swamp, that is, go after the ideologues who do not support fundamental american principles. What this means is Trump is going after the Ideological opponents of the people who put him in office as Fascists went after the ideologues who opposed them.


This is really bigger than Trump. One man can only do so much. In a few years he will be out of office, but his presidency exposes the greater ideological divide at work. Half the people want to take the country in one direction, and half want to take it another. It has become an ideological chasm to wide the cross. This is the greatest threat to our country. A nation divided cannot stand. Abraham Lincoln said, "If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide." This is exactly what is happening. Coincidentally, they say the average of civilizations are about 200 years. If that's the case, we're overdue.

:a3: :a3: :a3:
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:12 am

Sonbeam wrote:
keithareilly wrote:First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


Martin Niemöller

Martin Niemöller wrote this poem describing the Fascist behavior in Germany during the rise of the Nazi's.

Much of the fear of Trump is his wording about illegals as all "criminals", which they are for crossing illegally, and how such statements are similar with Nazi statements and behavior and how Trumps aggression about removing them aligns with going after particular ideologies that oppose his ideology. After the impeachment, Trump has become much more aggressive going after his ideological opponents. This again adds to the fear Trump is behaving similar to Fascism in pursuing his ideological enemies.

Keith


I can't believe you posted the above Keith. While you might be on the fence (it seems to me by your posts) regarding this President, this IMO feeds into the hate and viciousness exhibited by the far left towards the President.

As far as the President removing illegal immigrants for their "ideologies" (or perhaps you meant the liberals' ideology), either way, the President is removing them because they are breaking the law when they come here illegally. It's that simple.

By the way, regarding your citing the President a having described illegals as all "criminals" can you cite a specific quote. I couldn't find one.

sonbeam

:a3: :a3: :a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:59 pm

Hi Sonbeam,

You Wrote ...
I can't believe you posted the above Keith. While you might be on the fence (it seems to me by your posts) regarding this President, this IMO feeds into the hate and viciousness exhibited by the far left towards the President.


Mr Baldy requested responses to be less about personal political standings and more about objective viewpoints. As the topic is his, I respected his request and posted viewpoints of both the left and the right during this topic. I appreciate you may be upset I posted an accurate quantification of the very things the left sees and which feeds their opposition to the president. And I appreciate that by quantifying such things, leftists viewers may use the quantified views to feed their passionate opposition to the opposing passions of the rightists.

Nevertheless, this topic is feedback to Mr Baldy and he requested feedback that is more objective and less about our own personal passions. Consequently, I have done my best to provide objective, accurate views of both the right and the left. As you see me "on the fence", I will accept that perception as an indicator equal expressions of left and right views were provided as requested by Mr Baldy.

Keith
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:10 pm

Even handedness is the key point Keith. The problem is that there remains no even handedness in how this President is portrayed. There are precious few media outlets to allow for the Evenhandedness.

So consequently this President can Never have an Even Assessment by the masses...it's just not possible.

As far as I'm concerned...the Majority of the Media is the Embodiment and Vehicle of HOW a true Hitler " Dictator" is Propelled to Power.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Jericho on Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:13 pm

keithareilly wrote:Nevertheless, this topic is feedback to Mr Baldy and he requested feedback that is more objective and less about our own personal passions.


That's fine, but context is also important. Just because someone sees something a certain way doesn't make it necessarily true. Perspectives are not an indication of truth, only facts and evidence are.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:39 pm

Hi Shorttrib,

Indeed the bias is extreme on both sides.

As Jericho pointed out, during the civil war, Lincoln also found himself governing a country under such extreme divisiveness which resulted in civil war. Lincoln used his executive power to make what would normally be unlawful arrests; he did this by suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus, Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution, which says: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

Such powers can be used be by the President. For example: Antifa members may have the writ of Habeas Corpus suspended by the President against its members. Such extreme use of presidential powers has not yet been reached by Trump, but they may, depending on anarchy. It is the passions, and the pressures associated with such passions, that bring forth such divisiveness as brother against brother and the anarchy created then precipitates suspension of normal individual rights.

Who is president when such anarchy breaks out will determine against whom such Presidential powers are used.


Keith
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:52 pm

Jericho wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Nevertheless, this topic is feedback to Mr Baldy and he requested feedback that is more objective and less about our own personal passions.


That's fine, but context is also important. Just because someone sees something a certain way doesn't make it necessarily true. Perspectives are not an indication of truth, only facts and evidence are.


What a person says it not necessarily what the hearer hears. What a person sees depends on the filters in his brain. A person who is colorblind cannot see what a person who is not colorblind does see.

Ideologies are a type of filter in our brain. I have provided a quantification of how the leftist ideology perceives the words and actions of this president. Muslims see things differently than Christians because of ideology. In such cases where ideologies are different, facts and evidence are interpreted according to ideology and even when viewing the same facts and evidence, different conclusions are reached by different people of different ideologies. In such cases, arguing one ideological interpretation of facts and evidence is true and the other ideological interpretation of facts and evidence is false is a no win argument. Both sides will argue their own ideological interpretation of the facts and evidence is the true and correct interpretation.


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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:45 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy requested responses to be less about personal political standings and more about objective viewpoints.


Thank you Keith!

I was hoping not to begin a partisan debate and just focus on the facts. My prayer is that All believers will put their focus on Christ - and not the World's system. We are commanded to Watch until He Returns. Putting objective viewpoints on this forum, as we occupy this Earth until He Returns, not only edifies the Body of Christ - it shows we are being obedient - and I believe that He finds this edification most pleasing.

keithareilly wrote:In such cases, arguing one ideological interpretation of facts and evidence is true and the other ideological interpretation of facts and evidence is false is a no win argument. Both sides will argue their own ideological interpretation of the facts and evidence is the true and correct interpretation.


I wholeheartedly agree!

Not to mention, we truly have to allow people to have their own insights as provided by the Holy Spirit.

Thank you All for your support :grin:
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:19 pm

Hi Mr Baldy,

I am kind of disappointed Abiding has not contributed. It would be nice to get her opinions.

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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:20 am

keithareilly wrote:I am kind of disappointed Abiding has not contributed. It would be nice to get her opinions.


Yes it would be nice :mrgreen:
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:36 am

shorttribber wrote:Even handedness is the key point Keith. The problem is that there remains no even handedness in how this President is portrayed. There are precious few media outlets to allow for the Evenhandedness.

So consequently this President can Never have an Even Assessment by the masses...it's just not possible.

As far as I'm concerned...the Majority of the Media is the Embodiment and Vehicle of HOW a true Hitler " Dictator" is Propelled to Power.


I agree ST. The majority of the media has been relentless in the persecution of this President. They have been performing as a very willing arm of the left even before he came to office.

It is amazing that this President has chosen to continue in office in spite of the assault, both by the media and the left,
and is fulfilling the promises he made to those that supported him. Promises that in turn are benefiting all Americans as we can see. God be with him.

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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:12 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy requested responses to be less about personal political standings and more about objective viewpoints.


Thank you Keith!

I was hoping not to begin a partisan debate and just focus on the facts. My prayer is that All believers will put their focus on Christ - and not the World's system. We are commanded to Watch until He Returns. Putting objective viewpoints on this forum, as we occupy this Earth until He Returns, not only edifies the Body of Christ - it shows we are being obedient - and I believe that He finds this edification most pleasing.


Mr Baldy,

I am with you on praying that all believers, the children of God, will put their focus on Christ.

I've been participating on this forum for several years and judging from the many posts I've read here including yours, IMO it goes without saying that the participants have their focus on Christ. Christ is their first priority as it is mine.

However, as evidenced by the theme of your thread, we do concern ourselves with the things of this world. And rightly so. For the "things" of this world affect us not only physically, but spiritually as well.

Think loss of freedom and persecution of the saints. It should be a no brainer that as believers we would not want to elect a Socialist, right?

Or as believers, we would not want to align ourselves with a political party that sanctions the killing of babies in the womb or perhaps even just right after they are born. Again for believers, this should be a no brainer.

Mr. Baldy, you have said several times to "just focus on the facts, " could you specify what "facts" you are referring
to?

sonbeam
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:05 am

HI Sonbeam -

Sonbeam wrote:as evidenced by the theme of your thread, we do concern ourselves with the things of this world. And rightly so. For the "things" of this world affect us not only physically, but spiritually as well.


There is a difference between having "concern" with the things of the Word - and putting our faith in Christ. When you state: "things" of this world not only affect us physically & spiritually" - may I ask who are you putting your faith in?

Sonbeam wrote:Think loss of freedom and persecution of the saints. It should be a no brainer that as believers we would not want to elect a Socialist, right?


If Christ is the center of our lives, and we put our faith in Him - what difference does it make who is elected?

Sonbeam wrote:Mr. Baldy, you have said several times to "just focus on the facts, " could you specify what "facts" you are referring to?


Sonbeam -

When I began this Thread, my goal was to have as many that would like to contribute put comments here based on what we see going on in today's society here in America and abroad as it relates to the Subject. I know that some opinions involving political parties will surface - but I was hoping that it would be at a minimum as people tend to get very heated over such things. But we must remember, we are Believers.

Our time on this Earth is "temporary." We have been told to Watch - until He Returns. So we Watch. But we also keep in mind that the things of this World are now being manipulated by the prince of this World - Satan. Therefore, I would ask that the facts - and not so much our opinions be placed here as it relates to what is going on in America. I am sure that you understand, and see that America is NOT the same.

I believe that we as Christians should have a neutral stand when it comes to politics (but this is only my opinion.)
Man has a tendency to forget that no matter what Satan attempts to do in this Fallen World - God is still very much in control. Man often tries to interfere in the Work of God in an effort to control his own destiny.
It's no wonder Jesus asked the question: "Shall the Son of Man find faith on the Earth when He Returns?"(Luke 18:8)

In closing - I've often heard terms like: "leftist;" "rightwing;" "liberal;" "far-left;" "far-right;" "socialist;" "communist;" all these man-made terms can be considered divisive and/or derogatory. I don't think this sort of labeling has any place in the Body of Christ. We are commanded to love one another. If you were to think about it - when Jesus was here on Earth, He provided a form of "socialism" as He provided food; healed; and provided guidance to those in need - and absolutely Free of Charge. :mrgreen: …. The Kingdom of Heaven will be like a form of socialism as well - As the Government will be upon His Shoulders. (Isaiah 9:6) I mentioned this only in hope that the Body of Christ will get away from the name calling and labeling. Let the World do as the World does - it is FALLEN. We are called to a much higher standard - and that is placing our faith in Christ.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:37 am

Hi Mr Baldy,

God brought things to Adam and Adam named them.
Naming is not the issues, the issue is redefining terms (names) through connotation.

Connotation is a result of ideology.

For example, "racism" is discriminating, that is, making decisions, based upon race. It is considered bad because of connotations even though making decisions based upon race can be a good a thing. A person or organization that does in fact discriminate, that is, make decisions, based upon race is not necessarily bad person or organization. Unfortunately, the connotations of racism label even factually based good racist decisions as a bad thing. Race based people and organizations that make good decisions based upon race are in fact good people and organizations. For example, while The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) is a racist organization (It's in its name), it is good to help people advance, even if you choose to focus on a particular group by race. Helping advance people by group is advancing people; it is a subset of advancing all people. The NAACP is an example of a good racist organization.

Helping the poor is also discrimination. Helping people based upon economic situation is helping by discrimination based upon wealth and need. Not helping the rich and focusing on helping the poor is not necessarily bad; though it could be bad, if such discrimination leads to injustice. For example, the term "Social Justice" is an example of redefining justice based upon economic situation; it is not justice. A more accurate name would be "Social Mercy". But "Social Justice" includes the term "Justice" do deceive people into believing unjust behavior against the wealthy is, in fact, just behavior, which it is not.

Levitcus 19:15
15‘You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

"Social Justice" is an example of Isaiah 5:20
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

"Social Justice" is about switching people from believing A to believing B:
A) you can give to the poor when you want to do so,
B) you must give to the poor even when you do not want to do so;
this deceives people into believing they are giving to the poor when they are taxed, which they are not, because taxes are taken from you, not given by you. Taxes do not come from the generosity of one's heart.

Mark 14:7
"For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me.

Ideologies and the resulting connotations are mostly the issue; because, they are used to redefine terms for the purpose of deceiving people into accomplishing an agenda.

So, What is going on in this country and across the planet?
Ideologies are being shifted away from Christian based ideologies by redefining "terms" to deceive people into believing evil actions are actually good actions and good actions are actually evil.

Keith
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:20 pm

keithareilly wrote:Ideologies and the resulting connotations are mostly the issue; because, they are used to redefine terms for the purpose of deceiving people into accomplishing an agenda.

Correct, and Redefinitions are essentially the "Spin" that Mass Media places on any given matter.
WHAT SPIN is accepted among the Masses is HOW many Ideologies are Cultivated...from the Cradle to the Grave.

THAT is Why Christ MUST be the Absolute Master of any Ideological Premise.

keithareilly wrote:So, What is going on in this country and across the planet? Ideologies are being shifted away from Christian based ideologies by redefining "terms" to deceive people into believing evil actions are actually good actions and good actions are actually evil.


Sounds like End Time Events to me.....that is a Fact.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby bchandler on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:38 pm

I think that there is a scripture that talks about the degradation of a society until they call good evil and evil good.

This is where we are.

This is when God typically judged Israel for their evil.

This is when God typically calls his people out or prepares them for tribulation.

I fear greatly for this nation if it actually chooses the godless men of socialism/communism, whose religion is atheism, to run this country.

You need to look no further than the left and the media in this country to find those who call evil good and good evil.
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:01 pm

bchandler wrote:I think that there is a scripture that talks about the degradation of a society until they call good evil and evil good.

This is where we are.

This is when God typically judged Israel for their evil.

This is when God typically calls his people out or prepares them for tribulation.

I fear greatly for this nation if it actually chooses the godless men of socialism/communism, whose religion is atheism, to run this country.

You need to look no further than the left and the media in this country to find those who call evil good and good evil.

:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:15 pm

shorttribber wrote:THAT is Why Christ MUST be the Absolute Master of any Ideological Premise.


Christ MUST be the Absolute Master in ALL that is about everything involving the life of a believer.

Philippians 2:5 - King James Version (KJV)

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus


1 Corinthians 10:31 King James Version (KJV)

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or Whatsoever ye do, do ALL to the glory of God.


The aforementioned passages of Scripture are evidence that we should have Christ centered lives. Jesus also said this:

Matthew 22:20-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20) And He *said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21) They *said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He *said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.”


When I think of the World's System - I am reminded of the aforementioned passage of Scripture. Paraphrasing….

The things of the World belong to the World. We are of God and we should render ourselves totally & completely to Him.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Jericho on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:28 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:If Christ is the center of our lives, and we put our faith in Him - what difference does it make who is elected?


Mr Blady,
I know this question was not directed toward me, but I wanted to comment on it anyways. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as I said earlier not caring who is elected is a good recipe for a dictatorship, and ultimately Christian discrimination and persecution. You are correct in saying that America is not what is used to be. The GOP is certainty no saints, but the Democrat party has moved so far left that an avowed socialist is currently their leading candidate. Even a couple of decades ago that would have been unfathomable. The question is do we really want to live under a socialist, or have the first openly gay president running the country? Because that's what apathy will get us.

This life may be temporary, but we are called to be salt and life in the world, and occupy until He returns. We also have to think about what kind of country we want to leave our children and grandchildren. God, for the time being, has given us the authority to govern ourselves, and we should do that to the best of our abilities. If socialism or a dictatorship ever comes to America it is because we allowed it to happen, not God. So much of the negatives changes that have already happened in America are due in part because the Church has been asleep and let it happen.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby bchandler on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Mr. baldy,

Because American citizens are the kings and queens of this country, who choose who represents them in government, they have a civil and religious duty to choose the best people to send into that government.

This country is not like many others where the people have no voice.

Do you not believe that God will not hold us accountable on judgement day for who we chose?

Do you not believe that choosing the wrong people or failing to make any choice at all is a sin? A dereliction of duty? even providing aid and comfort to the enemies of God himself?
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:40 pm

Jericho wrote:Mr Blady,I know this question was not directed toward me, but I wanted to comment on it anyways. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as I said earlier not caring who is elected is a good recipe for a dictatorship, and ultimately Christian discrimination and persecution.


Hi Jericho -

Comments are always welcome - regardless. There is a huge difference in "not caring who is elected" and having faith in what thus sayeth the Lord - so please don't misunderstand what I have said. Have you read and truly understood Romans 13?
Jericho wrote:The GOP is certainty no saints, but the Democrat party has moved so far left that an avowed socialist is currently their leading candidate. Even a couple of decades ago that would have been unfathomable.


Not getting your point here. You see, what continues to be a problem, at least in my opinion, is when politics overflows into Christianity - we have a tendency to start viewing things from this Fallen World's point of view. When we do this we being with the labels and placing blame on one particular party verses the other. None of them are right.
Man will never have a utopian Government. I ask again - have you read, and truly understood Romans 13?

Jericho wrote:The question is do we really want to live under a socialist, or have the first openly gay president running the country? Because that's what apathy will get us.


What difference does it make :humm: How will this effect your walk with Christ - or your family's walk with Christ? By the way...…. have you truly read and understood Romans 13?

Jericho wrote: We also have to think about what kind of country we want to leave our children and grandchildren.


I am teaching my son how to Worship God - and put Him First. I am further teaching him not to be led by the strongholds of this Fallen World - but to put his complete faith in Christ; put Christ First in his life; work & study hard, and leave the affairs of this Fallen World to those who belong to it. When my son votes for someone in office, he must use his best judgment according to what he has learned about God - and leave the rest to God. If he has any questions..... I'll refer him to Romans 13.

Jericho wrote: God, for the time being, has given us the authority to govern ourselves, and we should do that to the best of our abilities.


I agree - but if we put our Trust in Christ, we will govern our lives according to Scripture.

Jericho wrote:If socialism or a dictatorship ever comes to America it is because we allowed it to happen, not God.


I disagree - read Romans 13 in it's entirety. You see the problem with this statement is that man always thinks he's in control or has to make things right in his own understanding. We really need to dethrone ourselves - and let God be God.

Jericho wrote:So much of the negatives changes that have already happened in America are due in part because the Church has been asleep and let it happen.


The Church hasn't let anything happen. Last I checked we live in a very secular World - and Satan is the prince.
By the way...… you may want to read Romans 13.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:49 pm

Hi bchadler -

bchandler wrote:Because American citizens are the kings and queens of this country, who choose who represents them in government, they have a civil and religious duty to choose the best people to send into that government.


"civil & religious duty? - is this according to Scripture :humm:

bchandler wrote:Do you not believe that God will not hold us accountable on judgement day for who we chose?


Absolutely NOT - have you read and understood Romans 13?

bchandler wrote:Do you not believe that choosing the wrong people or failing to make any choice at all is a sin?


Absolutely NOT - how is this a sin :humm:
Some Christians refuse to vote at all - does this mean they will go to hell because they don't vote :humm:

Last I checked Scripture commands us not to b conformed to this World - but be "Transformed by the renewing of our minds." (Romans 12-2) - and by the way, incase I haven't mentioned it...… you may want to read and understand Romans 13.
bchandler wrote:A dereliction of duty? even providing aid and comfort to the enemies of God himself?


No - but it really is a very interesting concept. And respectfully, one in which I find no Scriptural foundation whatsoever.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:55 pm




Romans 13: 1-7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Be Subject to Government

13) Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2) Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3) For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4) for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5) Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6) For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7) Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:11 pm

Romans 13:12
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the Armour of light.

This means being the light of the world, exposing how evil deceives people by appealing to the good in them to accomplish evil agendas. This means obeying God despite who is in government as the apostles did when the Pharasees beat them and threatened to kill them.

Every person who is posting about evils of politics, regardless of which side, is casting light on what darkness is being accomplished. And the word Armour means it is a fight to shed such light on evil as evil will oppose us. The prophets called out the evils of the people and the governing powers; the evil in power then killed the prophets.

Politics do matter, for we are each a politician representing the Kingdom of God.
2 Corr5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

We are Christ's Ambassador's therefore we are involved in politics. We, as ambassadors, are representatives of the Kingdom of God, being good Ambassadors means complying with the laws of two kingdoms, the one we represent, and, as per Romans 13, the one to which we are ambassadors. As ambassadors it is our job to represent the Kingdom of God to another kingdom and to support policies in that other kingdom that support the Kingdom of God and to oppose policies in that other kingdom that are against the Kingdom of God.

If we fail to support our God's Kingdom while residing here in the worldly Kingdom to which we are ambassadors, then we are failing in our responsibility to be an Ambassador. As Ambassadors, it is our job to influence the worldly Kingdoms on behalf of the Kingdom of God and that means we are in fact politicians. If you doubt this then ask yourself why many apostles have been killed and executed by those in power in these worldly kingdoms? It is because they do not want the influence of the Kingdom of God interfering with what they perceive as a kingdom they, not God rules.

Every Christian is involved in politics; for we are Ambassadors of The Kingdom of God.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Ready1 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:13 pm

Isa_5:20  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:42 pm

keithareilly wrote:Romans 13:12
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the Armour of light.

This means being the light of the world, exposing how evil deceives people by appealing to the good in them to accomplish evil agendas. This means obeying God despite who is in government as the apostles did when the Pharasees beat them and threatened to kill them.

Every person who is posting about evils of politics, regardless of which side, is casting light on what darkness is being accomplished. And the word Armour means it is a fight to shed such light on evil as evil will oppose us. The prophets called out the evils of the people and the governing powers; the evil in power then killed the prophets.

Politics do matter, for we are each a politician representing the Kingdom of God.
2 Corr5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

We are Christ's Ambassador's therefore we are involved in politics. We, as ambassadors, are representatives of the Kingdom of God, being good Ambassadors means complying with the laws of two kingdoms, the one we represent, and, as per Romans 13, the one to which we are ambassadors. As ambassadors it is our job to represent the Kingdom of God to another kingdom and to support policies in that other kingdom that support the Kingdom of God and to oppose policies in that other kingdom that are against the Kingdom of God.

If we fail to support our God's Kingdom while residing here in the worldly Kingdom to which we are ambassadors, then we are failing in our responsibility to be an Ambassador. As Ambassadors, it is our job to influence the worldly Kingdoms on behalf of the Kingdom of God and that means we are in fact politicians. If you doubt this then ask yourself why many apostles have been killed and executed by those in power in these worldly kingdoms? It is because they do not want the influence of the Kingdom of God interfering with what they perceive as a kingdom they, not God rules.

Every Christian is involved in politics; for we are Ambassadors of The Kingdom of God.

Keith

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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Jericho on Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:14 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:What difference does it make :humm: How will this effect your walk with Christ - or your family's walk with Christ?


A lot if the wrong person is elected. What do you think would happen if someone is elected who is antithetical to fundamental Christianity? Do you want a government that can tell you what you can preach about, or what your children should believe? Because if some people got their way, that's what would happen. It wouldn't happen overnight, but little by little. There's plenty of examples that is already happening. The point is we shouldn't put God in a box with regards to politics. Our walk with Christ should encompass every facet of our lives.

Mr Baldy wrote:I disagree - read Romans 13 in it's entirety. You see the problem with this statement is that man always thinks he's in control or has to make things right in his own understanding. We really need to dethrone ourselves - and let God be God.


I have read Romans 13, and I disagree with your assertion that God establishes all government. If that were true then Mosses was wrong to resist the Pharaoh of Egypt, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were wrong to resist Nebuchadnezzar, and Mordecai was wrong when he refused to bow down to the Persian magistrate Haman, among many other examples. In fact, early Christians were routinely jailed, beaten, and killed for not submitting to governing authorities with regards to their faith.

Romans 13 defines God given governing authorities as "Rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil"... For he is "God's minister" to you "for good". Not all governing authorities fit that definition. Nazi Germany is an extreme example of one that didn't. Do you think God establishes evil rulers or rulers who support abortion or gay "rights"? Because if you believe Romans 13 applies to every government you would have to.

You yourself said Satan is the god of this world, and I agree. Satan has his own kingdom and also establishes governing authorities. The future Antichrist, for example, will in fact be a political leader. God is working to advance His kingdom, and Satan is working to advance his. The thing is both God and Satan work through human proxies, who are receptive to them, to accomplish their will on Earth. We're not puppets however, our choices effect the outcome. The point I'm trying to make is that God has given us a large degree of latitude in deciding what happens on Earth, including in the political arena.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:20 pm

keithareilly wrote:Politics do matter, for we are each a politician representing the Kingdom of God.2 Corr5:20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God


I disagree - I am not a politician. Nor does being an Ambassador for Christ have to do with any Worldly form of Government; but being an example by the life we live in Him. Scripture identifies the Kingdom of God as being within us.

Luke 17:20-21 - King James Version (KJV)

20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


keithareilly wrote:We are Christ's Ambassador's therefore we are involved in politics.


Again - I wholeheartedly disagree. Being an Ambassador has absolutely NOTHING to with being involved in politics. But living a life in such a manner as to be an example to this Fallen World.

keithareilly wrote: As Ambassadors, it is our job to influence the worldly Kingdoms on behalf of the Kingdom of God and that means we are in fact politicians. If you doubt this then ask yourself why many apostles have been killed and executed by those in power in these worldly kingdoms?


While I greatly respect your opinion - I deeply disagree with your interpretation. You will find absolutely NOTHNG in Scripture that identifies a believer as a politician. Previously I provided Scripture that clearly separated Church and State. (Matthew 22:21) We must understand while we live in this Fallen World - we must render to the World what is the World's and what is God's is God's. The only time that Church & State will be united is when He Returns - then the Government will be upon His Shoulders. (Isaiah 9:6)

keithareilly wrote:Every Christian is involved in politics; for we are Ambassadors of The Kingdom of God.


Again - this is not true - and absolutely cannot be supported with Scripture. Perhaps a true understanding what an Ambassador for Christ means - and how it applies to the Christian life is in order.
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Re: Is America headed towards Dictatorship?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:55 pm

Jericho wrote:A lot if the wrong person is elected. What do you think would happen if someone is elected who is antithetical to fundamental Christianity? Do you want a government that can tell you what you can preach about, or what your children should believe? Because if some people got their way, that's what would happen. It wouldn't happen overnight, but little by little. There's plenty of examples that is already happening. The point is we shouldn't put God in a box with regards to politics. Our walk with Christ should encompass every facet of our lives.


Jericho - respectfully, have you truly read Romans 13?

In reading your aforementioned comments what you are mentioning leaves man purely in control in what God has established. That makes no sense to me. You appear to be looking at this from a non-spiritual aspect.
You mentioned "putting God in a box" - I ask you, who is actually putting God in a box?

Jericho wrote:I have read Romans 13, and I disagree with your assertion that God establishes all government.


Here is what Scripture says:

13) Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


It doesn't get any clearer than that.

The aforementioned is Scripture - and not man's opinion, or how he "feels" about the way things should be. I think that man thinks too highly of himself and what he can contribute to the plan of God - and it should be the other way around, lest we limit the Power of God - subsequently putting Him in a box.

Jericho wrote:In fact, early Christians were routinely jailed, beaten, and killed for not submitting to governing authorities with regards to their faith.


This comment needs to be put into context. They received these various punishments not because they were not submitting to governing authorities - but because they were obeying the Will of God.

Jericho wrote:Do you think God establishes evil rulers or rulers who support abortion or gay "rights"? Because if you believe Romans 13 applies to every government you would have to.


This is yet another comment that needs to be put into context. Romans 13 identifies God as establishing governing authorities - not the evil ruler(s) who happen to be elected by the people of this Fallen World. However, this needs to be qualified as well...… God is Sovereign - He can do as He pleases. He if were to "allow" - with the word "allow" being the operative word - an evil ruler to reign, then it is to carry out His Will.

Jericho wrote:The point I'm trying to make is that God has given us a large degree of latitude in deciding what happens on Earth, including in the political arena.


I wholeheartedly disagree - and I don't think that man has a dog in this fight. You are giving man way too much credit; too much responsibility; and too much control. God allows; God decides; God controls- man has very limited choices.
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