Slaying the Monster

Discussion not limited to prophecy.

Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:03 pm

My brother asked me a good question the other night. We were talking about our childhood, and abuses suffered. And he asked me, have you forgiven our mother?

I have. He asked because he could hear the anger in my voice. I remain angry over what she did, and what she willfully allowed to be done by others.

I told him the story of how that forgiveness came about.

It was shortly after she had died. I was inbetween waking and sleep, dreaming, vision, a bit of undigested pizza . . .

It was a bright cloudy scene, my mother standing there, looking away. I saw her just shoulders and up, but she was young again, and beautiful, and she turned to me, joy in her face, and said, "Mark, it's SO Wonderful!" And that was it. But I was OK now. Because I knew she was OK now.

All her problems were over, and she was "fixed". All made better. We never saw it here quite so much.

After my brother asked me his question, and I answered yes, I have forgiven her, aware of my anger, I told him that the things she did were reprehensible. I told him the more I learn about the traumas created by child abuse, the more I recognize that this is akin to murder, and maybe even worse, it's the murdering of someone's soul, in a certain sense to me.

And it angers me.

But I've forgiven her.

But I'm angry.

And I had to ask myself, how do these two reconcile?

I just had to think a minute to realize the answer. The monster is dead. My mother is alive in Christ, but the monster is gone forever. Judged in the flesh and condemned. Dead. Scattered into the ocean. But thankfully my mother was, in spite of everything, born again, and alive.

Here's a thing.

That monster was not my mother. Now, the psychologists would address such a statement in one way. But in the Bible's way, it's completely true. It wasn't her.

Oh, it was her, before, but then she was born again. And afterward, she was a new creation, reborn not from Adam, but born from God this time. Someone new. A new kind of new.

That's how God forgives us.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:57 pm

The monster is dead. My mother is alive in Christ, but the monster is gone forever.


I believe you and I have had this discussion before...or at least something similar.

This is a beautiful, thought-provoking post, Mark, and I thank you for posting it.

My belief is this....I agree that the monsters in our lives may be gone forever but I'm of the opinion that the memories live on. The pain, sorrow, and even feelings of humiliation may remain even though forgiveness has occurred. Emotions are part of our humanity and sometimes surface when we least expect them...i.e. a song, a place, a person, a smell, etc. brings the pleasant or unpleasant memories to the surface.

I think I've posted this link before, but I think it's helpful to remember how many and varied the emotions Jesus experienced are. Here's just a clip from The Emotional Jesus; His Ups and downs

...the Gospels also relate that Jesus at times gave way to these emotions and expressed his feelings physically – he wept (John 11:35),he even wailed (Luke 19:41), he sighed (Mark 7:34), he groaned (Mark 8:12), he flashed angry glares at people (Mark 3:5), he spoke with annoyance in his voice (Mark 10:14), or with chiding words (Mark 3:12). On occasion Jesus broke out in a rage (John 11:33, 38 as the Greek makes clear), or openly exulted (Luke 10:21), or cried aloud in utter desolation (Matt. 27:46). ‘Nothing is lacking [here in the Gospels] to make the impression strong that we have before us in Jesus a human being like ourselves.


So my conclusion is that while we have extended forgiveness to those who have caused us pain, we do not sin by still experiencing anger about them from time to time (Eph. 4:26). It's normal and natural imho. Often when I turned on the radio or listened to a sermon, it was about "Father." That word brought about the misconception that I had not forgiven my father, but I had. The memories surfaced now and then (as is normal) and I was happy I had forgiven him.

Peter wept over memories....

...And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, "Before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." And he went out and wept bitterly. Matt 26:75

It's what we do with those memories and emotions that matters....
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:38 pm

Hi Abiding,

We have spoken of this, and thank you so much!

And I'm totally into your bottom line . . . it's what we do with those memories. I'm re-framing them in truth.

There was an evil man who tried to destroy me, but what he meant for evil, God meant for good.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:41 pm

Forgiveness is often hard to wrap our minds around unless we think of it in terms of a parent/child relationship. For example, I know that there's nothing my kids could ever do that I wouldn't forgive. Nothing could ever lessen my love for them. I might question their sanity if they were to commit an unthinkable crime but I could never forget who they were as a child sweet and innocent.

It's like the prodigal son, who finally came back to his father. Instead of lecturing him he wrapped his best robe around him and threw him a party. Because he loved his son.

BTW if the devil ever asks you why should God forgive you and bless you abundantly when clearly you don't deserve it? Just tell him, it's because of Amazing Grace :grin:
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:54 pm

Hi Abiding,

So I confess, several of the "reads" on this thread are mine, I've come back to it a few times . . .

You had written,

My belief is this....I agree that the monsters in our lives may be gone forever but I'm of the opinion that the memories live on. The pain, sorrow, and even feelings of humiliation may remain even though forgiveness has occurred. Emotions are part of our humanity and sometimes surface when we least expect them...i.e. a song, a place, a person, a smell, etc. brings the pleasant or unpleasant memories to the surface.


To me, this touches on one of the key elements of what happens when we possess painful memories. It's in their associations.

And even as I wrote, my forgiveness for her is real, but so is my anger. I don't think the anger cancels the forgiveness, but it can affect me now. And the question becomes, affect me how? I'd answer, in various ways, depending. Depending on what sort of anger it is.

There is the verse, be angry and sin not. I think I prefer the translation, In your anger do not sin.

Jesus was angry, therefore anger is not of itself sinful. And when you come down to it, the question isn't "is anger sin", the question, to me is, "Is this anger of faith?"

We can feel anger, depression, all manner of difficult emotions. As you've mentioned, a word, a song, all sorts of things bring our memories to mind. Things we've associated with them.

And then here they come, bidden, yet unbidden (there, Keith will like that one :-), the memories of the pain.

And what do they bring with them? So often fresh pain. That's what we associate.

We hear a song, we remember the wound, and we feel the pain.

One of the treatment options I've considered is EMDR, the moving light thing that is supposed to facilitate re-framing memories, specifically removing from memories the effects of remembering them that interfere with my life.

So my mother was an NPD mom. Among other things she did, she used 'illness' as a means to control. She projected on us the same thing. So when I had my first migrain at age 10, I didn't understand what was happening, but when I told my mother, she said I just didn't want to put away the dishes, my assigned chore, so get back to it. I don't remember anything after seeing the white enameled stove grow blindingly bright.

I used to remember that in the child's way, filled with wonder, what can this be?, and, there is no comforter, and, there's all this pain! Life is terrifying and confusing, there is no one to help me, and it hurts!

Now I remember more removed. It was a difficult time for me to endure, but it's over, and Jesus brought me through it just as He has all else.

Let's go to the heart of the matter. Forget what my mother and father did. I was molested. My mother knew about it. That has brought difficulty untold! I'm not saying this for sadness, but for utility.

The memories, and their messages, have been far less removed.

I'm not worth protecting.
I brought it on myself.
I deserved it.
Now I'm ruined.

Oh my! Did Herb ever have this in mind?

But I feel this is so important!

EMDR would take these memories and detach them from the connotations that degrade our ability to live good lives. The successful outcome is described as being able to remember without the pain, or the grief, or fear. To remember with a mature and healthy viewpoint, and in a way that does not obstruct our life.

Something like, yes, I was left vulnerable, but I didn't deserve it. And though I was damaged, (I've heard abuse trauma compared to an amputation - you can heal, but you'll never be whole), I can still have a life.

Memory consolidation occurs overnight, they say, most likely during REM sleep. The Israeli Defense Force knows to keep awake for 24 hours soldiers who suffer trauma, to prevent PTSD.

These are two evidences that it's not a fixed matter what we feel when we remember. Even simply growing older can help mute some of those old voices. Although I've found, and science says, the aftermath of abuse like what we're talking about tends to aggregate and build over time.

OK getting back to the memories . . .

It's a lot easier to deal with the memory of an headache than with some other memories. And if I apply the same line to my other memories as I did to my migraine memory, then I still come to the same place. I wasn't worth protecting. No one, including God, protected me. And why would that be if God is all powerful, and eminently fair? I must have deserved it. Otherwise He is unjust to me. One may say, we have free will, do we not? But we punish the wrongdoer. And we consider heroic the one who prevents a crime. Where is God in all of this? Where was He when I was being made into damaged goods? Deliberately!

Again I want to say this not for sadness but it's usefulness.

For me, the reality is found in God's Word:

Romans 8:28-29 KJV

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


I heard this quoted on the radio last night, except he said what I've heard so many times, "God works all things together for good to them that love Him." But that's not what was written. All Things work together for good. It's not that God is working the things, He already did His part of that process. He tells us. All things work together for good because He already limited (the meaning of predestined, 'prohoridzo') what would happen.

It's like in Matthew 24, unless those days had been truncated, no flesh would survive. God already limited the duration of days of the Great Tribulation lest all the living on the earth die.

The difference to me is, on the one hand, God picks up the pieces after others get through with me, and puts me back together again. Yes, there was a lot of heartbreak, the near complete ruin of my childhood, the wasting of the strength of my life, the heartbreak and damage I've created for others, however, God will reassemble as best as only He can.

But on the other hand, God already did the work. He already limited my life to what would work for my good. It's not that "God works all things for good", it says that "all things" themselves work together for good.

God goes on to explain that this is so because He knew us already, and He placed limits in advance. For those he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.

God put limits in our lives ahead of time so that all the things in our lives would work together for our good, the ones who love Him, and are the one's He called, according to what He wants.

All things work for my good, because God kept out those things that would not.

And I know this has been a difficult one to understand for so many. This is one of what I call the Hard Thoughts.

How could such a tragedy be for my good? It was certainly "a thing" Part of the "all things". But for my good?

I believe I understand, and am beginning to live the answer to that question. I have a great hope for the time to come, and something that could not be otherwise, something that I very very much want.

But that aside, I have to ask, isn't that the correct meaning of the passage?

That everything, every last least little thing in my life is only there because God chose to keep it in, and that His selection process was based on, "This works together with everthing else for good for Mark, so keep it. That cannot work together with everything else for his good so no, it can't come in." ?

What if the greater glory comes through great affliction? Even terrible brutalities? Would God knowingly subject someone He loves to a life of grieving and sadness and pain, a life that knows such brutality and suffering? Could there ever be a reason?

How would Jesus answer that question?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Jericho on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:29 pm

Forgiveness like true (agape) love is an action, not a feeling. Feelings are fickle, they can change from moment to moment. What really counts in the end is our actions. We can choose to love, and we can choose to forgive. As for feelings of resentment, anger, and hatred, we have to give those to God.

At one point in my life I was very angry. I felt that if I stayed on that path it probably would get me in trouble at some point. I made a conscious decision to give it to God. I don't know when the change occurred, it was so subtle as to not to notice, but I no longer feel that way.
Last edited by Jericho on Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Ready1 on Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:20 pm

Blame brings bitterness,
Bitterness brings bondage,
Forgiveness brings freedom!
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:53 am

mark s wrote:What if the greater glory comes through great affliction? Even terrible brutalities? Would God knowingly subject someone He loves to a life of grieving and sadness and pain, a life that knows such brutality and suffering? Could there ever be a reason?


I think the Reformed and Calvinists do believe that God's intentional actions (brutal/sad/painful, etc.) are inflicted for the express purpose of bringing about a good end result in one's spiritual growth.

Wade Burleson calls himself a semi-Reformed (IIRC) and firmly believes and tries to provide scriptural evidence for, that God "orchestrates" every single thing that happens to us. He bases this belief specifically on passages in Habakkuk. You can read his post entitled Calm Balm for the Soul: Healing for Emotional Pain. I've gone round and round with him refuting this selective literalism but to no avail (I think).

In that post, Burleson says this: "Healing only begins when I stop blaming other people for my internal pain.

I replied that if God orchestrates every single event in my life, including brutalities and suffering, painful incidents, etc., then we should feel complete justified in blaming HIM as the source! If, however, we see life's horror as God's "allowable" will, that places a good amount of control within us and how we handle life's sad experiences, that's a very different perspective. That makes much more sense in keeping with God's love, goodness, grace, as well as the free-will and choices we possess as an integral makeup of our humanity.

How would Jesus answer that question?


Jesus warned of tribulation, dangers, deception, worries, etc. and encouraged us to remember that in the end, He has overcome, is victorious, and we will one day have no more sorrows and tears.

To my knowledge, He never discouraged expression or acknowledgement of our emotions as He Himself was a man of sorrows acquainted with grief.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:05 am

Jericho wrote:Forgiveness like true (agape) love is an action, not a feeling. Feelings are fickle, they can change from moment to moment. What really counts in the end is our actions. We can choose to love, and we can choose to forgive. As for feelings of resentment, anger, and hatred, we have to give those to God.


What exactly does it mean to "give those to God?"

At one point in my life I was very angry. I felt that if I stayed on that path it probably would get me in trouble at some point.


Understandable and a very real possibility. It confirms, however, that the bottom line is how we handle our emotions. What we choose to do with our anger is what the issue is. We are, after all, accountable for our actions, not for our feelings right? Be angry and sin not.... Self control (of our actions) is a fruit of the spirit.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby extravagantchristian on Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:47 am

What does Jesus mean when he says to "forgive from the heart"
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Jericho on Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:49 am

What exactly does it mean to "give those to God?"


To me it means we ask him to take them away. That's it. Some feelings, like Mark has experienced, run deep. That's when we need God to do a work in us. We do what we can do, and let Him handle the rest.

Understandable and a very real possibility. It confirms, however, that the bottom line is how we handle our emotions. What we choose to do with our anger is what the issue is. We are, after all, accountable for our actions, not for our feelings right? Be angry and sin not.... Self control (of our actions) is a fruit of the spirit.


Yes, I agree. We are capable of controlling our emotions, although some people are better at this than others. Self control does not come automatically, it must be learned and practiced. Some people are just not at that place yet where they have control over their emotions, and instead their emotions control them.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby extravagantchristian on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:43 pm

If we wish to have the mind of Christ, then we make it our aim to overcome feelings of anger and bitterness. Since he cares about our heart and not just our actions.

Although Mark, the type of trauma you speak about would be especially difficult to overcome.

I too was sexually abused and the thing that helps me the most is to remember that I would much rather be the abused than the abuser on judgmentday when all those sins are brought to light in front of God. Can you imagine the tremendous shame, guilt, and regret that abuser is going to feel on that day? I would sure rather be in my shoes than standing in theirs because God will fully repay both them and us. He will repay us for our suffering.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And you know what, that's not going to be you, it's going to be them.

Their works will impact them for all of eternity. The result will follow them.
Matthew 1:22
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:37 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:What does Jesus mean when he says to "forgive from the heart"


Hi EC,

The most straightforward sense, to me, is, forgive from the core of your being. To really and truly not hold something against someone.

My wife has likewise had a past resulting in PTSD and such. Without saying more, I've come to understand that when she does things that seem a violation to me, it's mostly her stuff coming up, and conflicting with her values, and distorting her behavior. It's not her. She loves me. She is sweet. She is amazing! But she does have issues, I have issues, we all have issues . . .

She understands that I sometimes act in ways that are not right, not good, and not helpful, but she also realizes that those things spring so much from my past, and that this is not the way I want to live, try to live, nor will live as best I can.

We forgive. I'm not going to hold it against her, or become angry with her, she's my wife, and I love her. On my side, that's something I have to deal with in my heart, the years when I was not this way, and contributed to her pain. I used to be angry, and then not forgive. I didn't really understand.

Now I understand how God forgives.

In the Old Testemant covenant with Israel, God provided a way that He would cover up man's sin, though it was not removed from him. The death of a substitute animal would be enough for God to not look at sins, and to have relationship with people even though they were corrupted by sin.

In the New Testament, we have better promises.

Sin is not covered as if by installment payments that never end. It is paid for with finality. And in the hymnodist's words, Be for sin the double cure. Sin paid for. And new life given.

Being reborn means that I'm no longer the one who committed, or who even now commits, the attrocities. If any be in Christ, he, or she, is a new creature. All the old is gone, and now everything is new, and is from God.

Romans 7, therefore it is no longer I who sin, but the sin that lives in me.

To forgive from the heart, in my understanding, means to live towards a person as if they have never ever done that to you. Living forgiveness, to me, means to live towards a person who may be in the act of harming you as if they were not, and only acting in what is best for their well-being. Jesus did that when He died. Father, Forgive them! They don't know! He could have stopped them from murdering Him, but His love for them was such that He simply let them commit their Most Heinous Crime unimpeded. It was what they needed, for Him to die. It was their only way. Others He stopped, thinking of Abilmelech, for one example. But in Jesus' death, God did not stop what they were doing out of His love for them even though it was great violence against His very Person.

The Father sent His Son into this world for the purpose of saving the world through their very act of murder.

God gives (the farming society) sunshine and rain, whether they are righteous or not. He loves all equally, not just those who love Him.

Paul wrote that we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. Once we knew Him that way, now we do not. (2 Cor 5) I'd say the same holds true for God. Once He knew us, and dealt with us, as the corrupt and dead race of men from Adam. Now He knows me as His child. The man from Adam is still here. That's where sin lives. But I'm His child, the one reborn.

He doesn't count me guilty of what old me did, or even still does, and will do. That's old me, not new me, and God knows the difference. He made me to begin with, and gave birth to me anew. He knows.

So I never have to be concerned whether God will be angry with me, or will reject me, or will punish me. He did all of that to Jesus instead. Towards me, He is purely and genuinely loving. Only.

I'm to do what He does.

I don't know people's hearts, and I'm not God, I'm just a man. They have not sinned against me. I've been harmed by their sin, but I'm not the one who made wrote the rules. The offence is against the Creator, the rule maker.

I may not know whether or not those who have hurt me were, or would be, children of God. I think certain one's became so, and certain one's maybe did not. But just the same.

To me, forgiving from the heart means to recognize that they are no different than me, a hopelessly corrupted man descended from Adam, condemned and dead in sin. But their sin, like mine, is against God. So in the literal judicial sense, just like I can't erase the state's right to convict a murderer by my forgiveness, as they have to answer to someone else's law, in that way, the one who sins, sins against God. It is for God alone to forgive.

If I harbor that sense of injustice at the hand of another, and count that against them in my dealings with them, this is unforgiveness. You hurt me, and even if I act nice to you, I'm still going to find ways to hurt you back because I resent what you've done. Something like that.

But if I rest in God's justice, and trust in His love and provision for my life, I can understand like Joseph and his brothers, who envied him, who hated him, who rejected him, who stole him from his family, whose actions led to him being forgotten in a foreign prison falsely for rape. You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. So no, I don't hold it against you.

That's what I think.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:09 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:If we wish to have the mind of Christ, then we make it our aim to overcome feelings of anger and bitterness. Since he cares about our heart and not just our actions.

Although Mark, the type of trauma you speak about would be especially difficult to overcome.

I too was sexually abused and the thing that helps me the most is to remember that I would much rather be the abused than the abuser on judgmentday when all those sins are brought to light in front of God. Can you imagine the tremendous shame, guilt, and regret that abuser is going to feel on that day? I would sure rather be in my shoes than standing in theirs because God will fully repay both them and us. He will repay us for our suffering.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And you know what, that's not going to be you, it's going to be them.

Their works will impact them for all of eternity. The result will follow them.


I could not agree with you more. And I'm sorry this happened to you too! What I'm finding is that this is more prevalent than I thought.

I expect I won't ever be able to imagine the depth of the horror of being the dead standing before the Great White Throne. But I know what a mess of guilt and shame and regret that I've been. Though I did not follow in their ways.

There is a promise from God I cling to in this world, in this life, that, "our God is a consuming fire." And I ask Him, I want so much for Him to consume all that is within me that is not of His Spirit.

I find that as God leads me into the discipline of a good life, there has been a lot of pain, physical, mental, emotional, and as the Scripture says, it is not joyous, but grievous. And considering that God's instruction to us is to rejoice always, that is, to be very very happy all of the time, then if He causes things that are not joyous, it must be for a very good reason.

I think the pain we experience in this world, those of us who are God's children, or will be His children, is there for the express purpose of leading us to overcome the obstacles in our lives first towards even knowing God, and then towards having an abundant life in Him.

I think they are there to lead us to faith, and then to allow us to master our faith, in mastering our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. I see that in the Bible. It seems to be what is happening in my life.

So much a better place to be!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:24 pm

Jericho wrote:Forgiveness like true (agape) love is an action, not a feeling. Feelings are fickle, they can change from moment to moment. What really counts in the end is our actions. We can choose to love, and we can choose to forgive. As for feelings of resentment, anger, and hatred, we have to give those to God.

At one point in my life I was very angry. I felt that if I stayed on that path it probably would get me in trouble at some point. I made a conscious decision to give it to God. I don't know when the change occurred, it was so subtle as to not to notice, but I no longer feel that way.


Hi Jericho,

I believe the truth of the matter is that we can at all times simply choose to walk in the Spirit. I believe feelings are a body thing, and can be either appropriate or not, depending. Useful, or not. Accurate, or not.

I believe feelings can immediately change, even completely reversing, the moment someone stops walking according to the flesh - living as though they were still the old creation - and begin walking in the spirit - living who we are now, the new creation.

I believe that the simple choice to focus on God, to trust Him with what is happening with me, is sufficient to remove any inappropropriate or destructive emotion instantly, and just as quickly replace it with joy and peace.

I believe that our physical condition can make this a much more difficult process, depending.

I look at it like reconstructive surgury. It depends on how far from health I was to begin with, I suppose.

I always recommend better to learn from the reading of the Word than the experience of life, since life learning tends to be expensive and painful, at least in my experience.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:49 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
mark s wrote:What if the greater glory comes through great affliction? Even terrible brutalities? Would God knowingly subject someone He loves to a life of grieving and sadness and pain, a life that knows such brutality and suffering? Could there ever be a reason?


I think the Reformed and Calvinists do believe that God's intentional actions (brutal/sad/painful, etc.) are inflicted for the express purpose of bringing about a good end result in one's spiritual growth.

Wade Burleson calls himself a semi-Reformed (IIRC) and firmly believes and tries to provide scriptural evidence for, that God "orchestrates" every single thing that happens to us. He bases this belief specifically on passages in Habakkuk. You can read his post entitled Calm Balm for the Soul: Healing for Emotional Pain. I've gone round and round with him refuting this selective literalism but to no avail (I think).

In that post, Burleson says this: "Healing only begins when I stop blaming other people for my internal pain.

I replied that if God orchestrates every single event in my life, including brutalities and suffering, painful incidents, etc., then we should feel complete justified in blaming HIM as the source! If, however, we see life's horror as God's "allowable" will, that places a good amount of control within us and how we handle life's sad experiences, that's a very different perspective. That makes much more sense in keeping with God's love, goodness, grace, as well as the free-will and choices we possess as an integral makeup of our humanity.

. . . . .

How would Jesus answer that question?


Jesus warned of tribulation, dangers, deception, worries, etc. and encouraged us to remember that in the end, He has overcome, is victorious, and we will one day have no more sorrows and tears.

To my knowledge, He never discouraged expression or acknowledgement of our emotions as He Himself was a man of sorrows acquainted with grief.


Hi Abiding,

I'm hardly what you'd call "Reformed". Well, except that God is reforming me. But I'm not Calvinistic in my views.

But I would agree with Wade on this one, I think Habbakuk also teaches this, that, in the words of my friend, there's nothing in my life that hasn't gone across God's desk first. He sits in the accounting office.

But Habbakuk shows that God uses that which causes terrible attrocities to bring about a desired end.

Habbakuk questioned God about the terrible state of his people, and God responded that He was going to solve this issue by bringing in the Chaldeans who would destroy them and their land, and take them all away. Habbakuk replied, paraphrasing, Whaaat???!!

How would Jesus answer that question?


The question I had in mind was,

What if the greater glory comes through great affliction? Even terrible brutalities? Would God knowingly subject someone He loves to a life of grieving and sadness and pain, a life that knows such brutality and suffering? Could there ever be a reason?


For Jesus there was a reason.

Maybe there was a reason for me.

I keep coming back to this:

2 Corinthians 4:8-11 KJV

8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.


And . . .

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


What is seen is the suffering and pain. What is unseen is the result that it brings. The outer man perishes. But this is to renew the inner man.

The afflictions I've endured, according to this, are working for me a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory.

What If . . . the way to the greatest glory was through great afflictions?

Phillipians 2:8-11 KJV

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


It seems to have been the way for Jesus.

Here is the problem I have with "God's allowable will", meaning that people may or may not hurt me, as it pleases them. God doesn't interfere.

So then . . . You can go ahead and have at this little boy all you want. I won't stop you. Could mess him up pretty bad, but, oh well, things happen. I'll be around later to help put back the pieces, but I'm not going to just step in with a flick of my little finger to spare all that pain. I see you, I can stop you, and I, more than anyone, realize the damage and hurt you are inflicting. But . . . I'll just watch. After all, I said you can do what you want. I don't care either way.

What does that say about God?

He has it within His hand to give what is needed, as it is needed. He tells us that when that's me, to don't withhold that good thing. So why would He?

What would I say of myself were I to turn the corner and see a man molesting a boy, and I did nothing? I simply can't understand that sort of thinking.

Unless there were a reason. And if the reason is my salvation, and then my sanctification, and then my eternal reward, with the promise that this will all be more than compensated for, and actually all forgotten, that's a good reason.

Lot's of pain, but a rather corrupted humanity to be saved out of.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:57 am

What If . . . the way to the greatest glory was through great afflictions?


It almost saddens me to start my post on this thread here, because so much weighted stuff is in this discussion, and I have gone through so much, just reading it....but.....the above question.
Just last week I came across Theodore Roosevelts piece called The Man in the Arena. I have read it so many times, as I put it on my screen on my computer and keep using it to work through emotions I am having atm.

It talks about the critic's opinion not being so relevant as the one who rolled his/her sleeves up, got in the ring, for better or worse, with errors and mistakes.....and fought the fight at hand (whatever type of fight there might be). He then summarizes in describing the critic, the one who sits back and doesn't get in the ring, but instead offers judgment on those who do....and he describes them as cold and timid souls that never knew victory or defeat.

Man, do I know some critics in my lifetime.....and do I have resentments that I've had to work through, and in some ways, am still working through.....

but at the end of the day, I am so much more ......well rounded......I say to myself......for I have been in that ring, scrapping and fighting and clawing and hurting and suffering and......I am keenly aware of one thing.......I KNOW the critics in my life, who have inflicted great harm to me....and yet, they know not, often times, what they speak of. They have no experience to draw from in drawing their conclusions....they just think they are so smart and know so much.

I dont want to sound the wrong way. What I am trying to say is that through all of these adverse experiences, I have had to educate myself, endure, live with, go through.....whatever adjective describes the struggles at the various times...and my needs, during them were so great that I was compelled to help myself get through them, and once I did...I had grown and stretched and become more somehow, even if I felt diminished (thats a feeling and not actually an absolute fact....how could I be diminished if more was added to me????).

So, for the past week or so, I have been contemplating this line of thinking....actually as a means of helping me work through my own resentments with some overbearing people in my life, who have abused me tremendously.....and yet, they don't know they are the critic who never got in the ring....I know this about them.....they don't see themselves in this at all...don't get it.....and when they saw me in the ring, they so often criticized and blamed me for my condition.....or offered some other judgment or accusation......and I resented it....them....still do.....
but....I can see how I have been expanded as an individual and stretched in ways that would seemingly break those critics in my life.
Just somewhat thinking out loud here.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:28 am

I must decrease, Jesus must increase in my life. This does that.

Much love!

:hugs:

Mark
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. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:59 am

Here is the problem I have with "God's allowable will", meaning that people may or may not hurt me, as it pleases them. God doesn't interfere.

So then . . . You can go ahead and have at this little boy all you want. I won't stop you. Could mess him up pretty bad, but, oh well, things happen. I'll be around later to help put back the pieces, but I'm not going to just step in with a flick of my little finger to spare all that pain. I see you, I can stop you, and I, more than anyone, realize the damage and hurt you are inflicting. But . . . I'll just watch. After all, I said you can do what you want. I don't care either way.

What does that say about God?


Mark, I don't think God's attitude towards our pain is anything like, "oh well....things happen." That's totally contrary to scripture that likens Him to a Rock, a nursing Mother, a source of shelter, a tower of strength, a refuge in a time of trouble, a hen who wants to gather her chicks, etc

What would I say of myself were I to turn the corner and see a man molesting a boy, and I did nothing? I simply can't understand that sort of thinking.


Jesus didn't understand that sort of avoiding harmful treatment of another person either. The strong principle behind the story of the Good Samaritan and the Golden Rule is that of assisting those who need our help just as we hope they will assist us when we are in need. It's also the reason for the whole Mosaic Law...the principle of fair, just, and reasonable treatment of one another. It was God who established cities of refuge for those accused of crime until the crime could be investigated properly. This was done for the safety and benefit of the accused. And the purpose of our government is the protection and punishment of those who have been abused. It was God who allowed Moses to institute the writ of divorce for the sake of those wives who were being sent out without any recourse.

God is a merciful, loving, caring, compassionate God who offers abundant life, freedom, who provides comfort and rest for the weary. That's very different than One who inflicts harm for the purpose of saving them eternally. Surely He is more creative in His method than having to resort to violence to bring us to him :dunno:

Unless there were a reason. And if the reason is my salvation, and then my sanctification, and then my eternal reward, with the promise that this will all be more than compensated for, and actually all forgotten, that's a good reason.


So are we to understand the principle of "the end justifies the means" is scriptural? Are we to understand, for example, that God struck the leper with leprosy so He could be ultimately saved? Or the lame, crippled, blind so they would be saved? Pretty sure scripture limits these narratives to " physical healing" not salvation.

Life is difficult. Jesus told us we would experience tribulation here but we are to take courage knowing He has overcome the world. And Paul reminds us to run this race with endurance... "in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, 
in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger, in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love..." 2 Cor. 6:4-6

It is the sorrow as the result of abuse, harm, disease, tribulation that brings us to repentance and thus to salvation... 2 Cor. 6:10
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:13 am

John 9:1-6 KJV

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.


God wanted to reveal Himself through this man, so the man endured a lifetime of blindness until the day Jesus came along and gave Him sight.

Was it intended only for his physical healing? Or that many might be saved, including the man? I would have to answer that many might be saved.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:17 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Jesus didn't understand that sort of avoiding harmful treatment of another person either. The strong principle behind the story of the Good Samaritan and the Golden Rule is that of assisting those who need our help just as we hope they will assist us when we are in need. It's also the reason for the whole Mosaic Law...the principle of fair, just, and reasonable treatment of one another. It was God who established cities of refuge for those accused of crime until the crime could be investigated properly. This was done for the safety and benefit of the accused. And the purpose of our government is the protection and punishment of those who have been abused. It was God who allowed Moses to institute the writ of divorce for the sake of those wives who were being sent out without any recourse.

God is a merciful, loving, caring, compassionate God who offers abundant life, freedom, who provides comfort and rest for the weary. That's very different than One who inflicts harm for the purpose of saving them eternally. Surely He is more creative in His method than having to resort to violence to bring us to him :dunno:


Hi Abiding,

Since we know that God want's us to protect those who cannot protect themselves, to protect those who should be protected, the fatherless, the widow, can you tell me, why did He not protect me?

If it's such a high value, why did He not do it? In His mercy . . . He allowed my abuse? In God's loving caring compassion, He let all these people nearly destroy me with their violence? Why would God do that? Why did He not assist me, even as He expected the least member of society to do?

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:59 pm

mark s wrote: Since we know that God want's us to protect those who cannot protect themselves, to protect those who should be protected, the fatherless, the widow, can you tell me, why did He not protect me?

If it's such a high value, why did He not do it? In His mercy . . . He allowed my abuse? In God's loving caring compassion, He let all these people nearly destroy me with their violence? Why would God do that? Why did He not assist me, even as He expected the least member of society to do?


Mark, God has given us all the resources we need to be safe. Parents are the natural protectors of their children. The stronger are natural protectors of the weaker and more vulnerable. Laws protect civil violations; i.e. misdemeanors. Federal laws protect against felonies; i.e. rape, murder, incest, domestic violence, kidnapping, etc. When any of these crimes are committed, it is incumbent on us to report them. Sometimes we are embarrassed or frightened and neglect to do so and the crime continues.

His Word has provided these 59 One-Anothers in the Bible as guidelines of our behaviors and treatments of each person in our interactions and concerns for each other.

In imho we are responsible for our actions and those who break the laws will (at some point) be punished for their crimes.

ETA: Our responsibility is to manage the painful memories and emotions that are the result of crimes against us (as discussed above.)
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:25 pm

But why didn't God intervene to prevent me from being hurt?

I was a child, I had no power. Those who had the power to protect me from those things did not, right up to and including God Himself.

Why?

:hugs:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Jericho on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:05 pm

mark s wrote:But why didn't God intervene to prevent me from being hurt?

I was a child, I had no power. Those who had the power to protect me from those things did not, right up to and including God Himself.

Why?

:hugs:


Hi Mark, I remember talking about this before. I think that sort of question makes God culpable, instead of the person who actually did it. We could ask why did God allow Satan to fall and Adam to fall knowing the consequences. We have been given the gift of free will, but with free will comes consequences, and the ability to choose to do evil. I think there are reasons why God is allowing evil to exist for a finite period of time that will ultimately culminate with evil being put under his feet once in for all. From our perspective it's taking a long time. But from God perspective he see's eternity past where things were perfect, and eternity future where things are perfect. Our little stitch of time doesn't even scratch the surface when compared to eternity.
Last edited by Jericho on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:52 pm

mark s wrote:But why didn't God intervene to prevent me from being hurt?

I was a child, I had no power. Those who had the power to protect me from those things did not, right up to and including God Himself.

Why?


To add to Jericho's wise comments....

Having given mankind all the necessary tools to guide, regulate, and manage our affairs in a fair, just, honest, and thoughtful manner, He trusts us to use them. He does, however, warn of the consequences of our refusal to abide by them as he did when the Israelites insisted on having a king like the surrounding nations.

If you do a search on the number of crimes committed annually by both believers and non-believers, you would have a very, very busy God were He to intervene on their behalf. In addition, it would certainly free sinners to continue in their sin knowing God would intervene/rescue the victims.

It's rare that we find God intervening in the affairs of man, so as to honor His design of free will, free choice, and the freedom to use both. All with the understanding that law breaking results in consequences either here and/or in eternity. In His wisdom He even differentiated between intentional and unintentional sin and the differences in the consequences. I think that's where Roman Catholics get venial and mortal sin.

Of course, in the end, it's impossible to understand everything about God....
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:02 pm

Jericho wrote:
mark s wrote:But why didn't God intervene to prevent me from being hurt?

I was a child, I had no power. Those who had the power to protect me from those things did not, right up to and including God Himself.

Why?

:hugs:


Hi Mark, I remember talking about this before. I think that sort of question makes God culpable, instead of the person who actually did it. We could ask why did God allow Satan to fall and Adam to fall knowing the consequences. We have been given the gift of free will, but with free will comes consequences, and the ability to choose to do evil. I think there are reasons why God is allowing evil to exist for a finite period of time that will ultimately culminate with evil being put under his feet once in for all. From our perspective it's taking a long time. But from God perspective he see's eternity past were things were perfect, and eternity future where things are perfect. Our little stitch of time doesn't even scratch the surface when compared to eternity.


Hi Jericho,

You've hit the nail on the head, I think. This sort of thinking "makes God culpable." And no one wants that. But I ask, culpable of what?

In Ecclesiastes God teaches us that we should enjoy the days of prosperity, but when the days of adversity come, to remember, both are from God, and He has set one against the other that we should find nothing after us. Something like that.

God subjected creation to vanity - emptiness - in hope that it would be released one day into our liberty. Solomon put that to the test, and recorded his findings. His conclusion was that we should enjoy our food, and drink, and work, and only really concern ourselves over what God thinks of us and what we do. OK, a loose take on it.

If they days of adversity come from God, and they do, well, what is God culpable of?

Why do they come? To remove what the days of prosperity bring, so that I find nothing of any real meaning in this world.

Why does God want me to not find anything of true meaning in this world? He has a plan. I am a slave to sin, while He still wants children of liberty. Where the Spirit is, that's where freedom is. And the Spirit is in me.

And the days of adversity are there to make it so. To take away the good. So I'll look for Him. And find Him the cross, where my sin is removed, where my life is restored, and He lives in me.

God is culpable of making it so.

God is culpable of rescuing me.

And, again, our Forerunner in all was Jesus, learning obedience through suffering, sometimes it happens that way, good when it doesn't. It did with Jesus, and it did with me.

All I can say is, thank you, Jesus!!!

Much love!
Mark

PS . . . and He said we wouldn't understand His ways . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:14 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:To add to Jericho's wise comments....

Having given mankind all the necessary tools to guide, regulate, and manage our affairs in a fair, just, honest, and thoughtful manner, He trusts us to use them. He does, however, warn of the consequences of our refusal to abide by them as he did when the Israelites insisted on having a king like the surrounding nations.

If you do a search on the number of crimes committed annually by both believers and non-believers, you would have a very, very busy God were He to intervene on their behalf. In addition, it would certainly free sinners to continue in their sin knowing God would intervene/rescue the victims.

It's rare that we find God intervening in the affairs of man, so as to honor His design of free will, free choice, and the freedom to use both. All with the understanding that law breaking results in consequences either here and/or in eternity. In His wisdom He even differentiated between intentional and unintentional sin and the differences in the consequences. I think that's where Roman Catholics get venial and mortal sin.

Of course, in the end, it's impossible to understand everything about God....


Hi Abiding,

Indeed God would be doing much! All the time. But He's used to that sort of thing, isn't He? If He's actually keeping a current tally on the hairs on my head? I think it's changing every day. Of course, Jesus holds all of creation together as a continuing action. God sees what is done in secret - everythere, He hears what is said in secret - everything, not too much needed to save one little boy, is there? A single word, spoken into the air behind him as he closes in, a feeling in his heart, spooking him, leave him alone . . . go away . . . Especially when He speaks so strongly protective of the fatherless.

Oh. That was the other guy's job. Not the omnipotent, all-wise, loving and righteous maker and judge of all creation. He left it to the fallen sons of Adam. Work it out amongst yourselves. Too bad for Mark.

What would it mean that God trusts man with anything? God knows exactly what a man will do. I don't see where this can be a matter of God telling man, OK, I'm trusting you to take care of this, but if you do, you do, and you don't you don't, and we'll see how it all turns out.

He knows what the end of a thing will be before it is even begun. So He knows how that will work out. Great choice, God! Left me hanging in the wind! Oh well!

Or did He? I don't think so.

Would He? I don't think so.

Much love!
mark
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:42 pm

mark s wrote: Oh. That was the other guy's job. Not the omnipotent, all-wise, loving and righteous maker and judge of all creation. He left it to the fallen sons of Adam. Work it out amongst yourselves. Too bad for Mark.

What would it mean that God trusts man with anything? God knows exactly what a man will do. I don't see where this can be a matter of God telling man, OK, I'm trusting you to take care of this, but if you do, you do, and you don't you don't, and we'll see how it all turns out.

He knows what the end of a thing will be before it is even begun. So He knows how that will work out. Great choice, God! Left me hanging in the wind! Oh well!

Or did He? I don't think so.

Would He? I don't think so.


I hear you blaming God for what your parents did to you. I'm wondering....did you ever share your experiences of abuse with someone who could help you since you lacked proper protection by your parents?

You are correct in that God knows exactly what a man will do, which is precisely why He put boundaries, regulations, and governing authorities in place for the sake of the vulnerable. We can avail ourselves of these for our own protection and that of others as well.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:17 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:I hear you blaming God for what your parents did to you. I'm wondering....did you ever share your experiences of abuse with someone who could help you since you lacked proper protection by your parents?

You are correct in that God knows exactly what a man will do, which is precisely why He put boundaries, regulations, and governing authorities in place for the sake of the vulnerable. We can avail ourselves of these for our own protection and that of others as well.


Hi Abiding,

I'm sorry, I didn't do a very effective job in communicating in that case.

This isn't a matter of "blame". This is what I'm trying to say. The Bible declares things were for our good. So many believe them to be for our bad. But I testify that they are for our good.

Gotta run!

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Jericho on Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:34 pm

Hi Jericho,

You've hit the nail on the head, I think. This sort of thinking "makes God culpable." And no one wants that. But I ask, culpable of what?

In Ecclesiastes God teaches us that we should enjoy the days of prosperity, but when the days of adversity come, to remember, both are from God, and He has set one against the other that we should find nothing after us. Something like that.

God subjected creation to vanity - emptiness - in hope that it would be released one day into our liberty. Solomon put that to the test, and recorded his findings. His conclusion was that we should enjoy our food, and drink, and work, and only really concern ourselves over what God thinks of us and what we do. OK, a loose take on it.

If they days of adversity come from God, and they do, well, what is God culpable of?

Why do they come? To remove what the days of prosperity bring, so that I find nothing of any real meaning in this world.

Why does God want me to not find anything of true meaning in this world? He has a plan. I am a slave to sin, while He still wants children of liberty. Where the Spirit is, that's where freedom is. And the Spirit is in me.

And the days of adversity are there to make it so. To take away the good. So I'll look for Him. And find Him the cross, where my sin is removed, where my life is restored, and He lives in me.

God is culpable of making it so.

God is culpable of rescuing me.

And, again, our Forerunner in all was Jesus, learning obedience through suffering, sometimes it happens that way, good when it doesn't. It did with Jesus, and it did with me.

All I can say is, thank you, Jesus!!!

Much love!
Mark

PS . . . and He said we wouldn't understand His ways . . .


Recall that Solomon married many foreign women who turned him toward their gods, and away from the one true God. It is apparent from reading Ecclesiastes that made him despondent. He had every earthly thing he could want, but without God he was still empty. Is it no wonder that Ecclesiastes is so depressing and lacking of hope? This is not something that should be for the believer. I think we should also note that Ecclesiates is under the Old Covenant, but we have a new and better covenant with God.

You make it sound like everything is preordained by God, both good and bad. But I don't believe this is so. How then do we reconcile the above with scriptures like:

"For I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

"I am come that they might have more life, and have it more abundantly."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

I could go on and on, but I'm sure you catch my meaning. It's apparent for me when I read the New Testament that it is not God's will for his children to suffer or bad things to happen to them (this applies only to those that belong to Christ). Of course in this fallen world bad things do happen. But we have to remember that all of human history has been to the backdrop of a cosmic conflict between Satan and his minions against God, opposing his plans. And that war has spilled over in our realm when Adam fell. We are literally living on a battlefield. Could God stop it? Yes, and he will at the appropriate time. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1CO 15:25). We may not understand everything why God allows certain things, we see through a glass darkly as Paul said. But we can rest assured that he allows certain things for a greater good.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:55 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
mark s wrote: Oh. That was the other guy's job. Not the omnipotent, all-wise, loving and righteous maker and judge of all creation. He left it to the fallen sons of Adam. Work it out amongst yourselves. Too bad for Mark.

What would it mean that God trusts man with anything? God knows exactly what a man will do. I don't see where this can be a matter of God telling man, OK, I'm trusting you to take care of this, but if you do, you do, and you don't you don't, and we'll see how it all turns out.

He knows what the end of a thing will be before it is even begun. So He knows how that will work out. Great choice, God! Left me hanging in the wind! Oh well!

Or did He? I don't think so.

Would He? I don't think so.


I hear you blaming God for what your parents did to you. I'm wondering....did you ever share your experiences of abuse with someone who could help you since you lacked proper protection by your parents?

You are correct in that God knows exactly what a man will do, which is precisely why He put boundaries, regulations, and governing authorities in place for the sake of the vulnerable. We can avail ourselves of these for our own protection and that of others as well.


Hi Abiding,

Now that I have more than 5 stolen minutes . . .

I have to apologize, I was trying to express myself with sarcasm, but not to any avail!

I love God for all He's done for me. I understand my past, at least, I think I've got a pretty good handle on it. And all has been for good. I'm certain of that. The Bible teaches it, I'm seeing it. Not that the second part matters. I can be completely blind to God, that His Words are still true.

Do I blame God for what my parents did? No. I don't. But I believe He is a faithful and righteous creator and judge. They are responsible. Each on is responsible for their own sin.

But in all seriousness, how does a baby call for help when left unfed, laying in their own waste for hours. My father quickly realized that he would have to move the family next to his work so he could come home on his breaks to care for their first child, my sister. My neglect began in the womb. And was fairly continuous throughout. To whom does a baby call if not for it's mother?

When I was molested, by the time I understood that I did have power to stop it, the damage was done. Later I understood that my mother knew about it.

And I was angry for a long time. But I mentioned above, once I understood the monster was dead, that was a big part. Now that I believe the word that is written, that all things themselves word together for our good.

And just because I may or may not understand doesn't change the word of truth.

But what could I have done to prevent what was done to me? Since those responsible in this world abdicated their responsibility, and worse, then, what about God?

But again, I truly believe our afflictions, even the difficult ones, though all be difficult, are there to bring us glory.

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:15 am

Hi Mark,
When I read that vision you had, right away, I thought, this vision wasn't about your mother, I believe this vision is saying to you, "forgive and forget"... Mark, Dwell on good things and when you do, the bad past fades.... forget about analyzing your past....don't be hard on yourself.... :)

May God get rid of your horrible past and anger that you may sing in joy...
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:06 pm

My parents were a mess too Mark , I don't how how I turned out as good as I did lol. I'm just glad that the 2nd half of my life has been better than the first. Sometimes the best thing we can do with the past is just forget it.

The bible says that God visits our sins on our children and grand children. It's the way of the world. Christians aren't exempt from this law.

God abused his own child... For us.

We can't be successful parents without God's help.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:57 pm

Jericho wrote:Recall that Solomon married many foreign women who turned him toward their gods, and away from the one true God. It is apparent from reading Ecclesiastes that made him despondent. He had every earthly thing he could want, but without God he was still empty. Is it no wonder that Ecclesiastes is so depressing and lacking of hope? This is not something that should be for the believer. I think we should also note that Ecclesiates is under the Old Covenant, but we have a new and better covenant with God.


HI Jericho,

Solomon became despondent, by his own words, however, that was just a part of the process.

I understand Ecclesiates to be written by Solomon at the end of his quest for understanding. He saw all the evil done under the sun, and he saw that he had received amazing wisdom, so he set to understand by his wisdom what the good thing was that men should do, under heaven.

He saw the futility of all he did, and it made him despair of life. But then he came to understand that God was doing. And that God had arranged things to lead man to one and only one destination, Himself.

In Job, God put Satan to the test.

Satan claimed superior knowledge of human nature than God had. OH, if you do that he'll curse you to your face! So God put that to the test. OK, try it! God was right.

In Ecclesiastes, man put God to the test. God subjection creation to vanity. Vanity, vanity, all if vanity saith the preacher. He had tested, and found, everything in fact was meaningless, empty, vain. God again was right.

God knows us. So He made a way to save us.

Solomon wrote, NLT translation, God makes the same things happen over and over again so that men would fear Him. And very similar statements about what God bent can't be straightened, again, so men would fear Him.

God knows what we are like. We look to what is around us. So God made it so that the things around us won't work for us.

You make it sound like everything is preordained by God, both good and bad. But I don't believe this is so.


There's that "both good and bad". God says that He has pre-limited things so that everything is always for our good. Where is the bad allowed in that passage?

Remember Joseph, envied, hated, stolen from his family, sold into slavery, falsely imprisoned for rape, forgotten in a foreign prison, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." Do you think Joseph suffered?

How then do we reconcile the above with scriptures like:

"For I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."


What if these are the good plans? They seem to be for me, at least, I've become completely convinces. I am absolutely convince that God loves me, and cares for me, and all has been for my salvation and glory. Those are good plans.

Does great good result from great affliction? Ask Jesus. I think He's answer yes.

"I am come that they might have more life, and have it more abundantly."


What if great glory comes through great affliction? What if receiving the abundant life means having to lose one's own life? Does death always come easily? But didn't He promise he would sanctify us, and preserve us?

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."


Love, power, and a sound mind! Amen!!!! Thank you!!!!!!

I could go on and on, but I'm sure you catch my meaning.


Just as I so very much hope you catch my meaning. Others meant these for bad, but God meant them for good. Though it looks like terrible affliction, and so many suffer such more terribly, could this temporal affliction actually be working for us a far far far greater and eternal weight of glory?

I believe it is. I really do. I thank God for my life, it is just more proof, to me, of His wisdom, power, and love.

It's apparent for me when I read the New Testament that it is not God's will for his children to suffer or bad things to happen to them (this applies only to those that belong to Christ).


Did you know Peter mentions suffering 15 times in his little 5 chapter first letter? I didn't until just now. OK, I was cheating, I used a search.

At the end of chapter 4 he wrote,

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


Suffer according the the will of a faithful Creator? What sense does that make?

1 Peter 4:1

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


Jesus suffered in his flesh. We are to be armed with this same frame of mind. Suffering causes to cease from sin. That which is not of faith is sin. Suffering leads us to repudiate that which is not of faith, while clinging more tightly to faith. Suffering according to the will of God, our Faithful Creator, in whose hands we can commit the keeping of our souls. Even in the day of adversity.

Of course in this fallen world bad things do happen. But we have to remember that all of human history has been to the backdrop of a cosmic conflict between Satan and his minions against God, opposing his plans. And that war has spilled over in our realm when Adam fell. We are literally living on a battlefield. Could God stop it? Yes, and he will at the appropriate time. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1CO 15:25). We may not understand everything why God allows certain things, we see through a glass darkly as Paul said. But we can rest assured that he allows certain things for a greater good.


The devil, the world, the flesh, all trying to annihilate us. The devil for spite, I imagine, the world because we're not part of it, and the flesh because we want to use it for us, not for itself.

I believe we've pretty firmly established that we don't understand many things, and we can see sometimes hardly at all. That's why faith is so so important, since are walk is by faith, not by sight.

Ever since Adam's eyes were openned, we can't see.

But I absolutely agree with you, He allows certain things for a greater good. And when you start talking about what that good is, exactly, it's all something I want more than I want anything else in this life. Of course, I didn't always feel that way.

But now I know, I know completely, that kind of glorious and amazing love and life and splendor was His plan from the very beginning of all.

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:30 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:My parents were a mess too Mark , I don't how how I turned out as good as I did lol. I'm just glad that the 2nd half of my life has been better than the first. Sometimes the best thing we can do with the past is just forget it. You can't move forward if your looking back.

The bible says that God visits our sins on our children and grand children. It's the way of the world. Christians aren't exempt from this law.

God abused his own child... For us.

We can't be successful parents without God's help.


My brother turned out remarkably well also. You never know how the same things will affect different people, and, of course, we all have our own unique experience of life.

That's my mind-set also, I'm glad it's better now. Or, getting better still, more like it. I see how far He's brought me, but I know there is further yet to go. But having caught a glimpse, as it were, I've become so excited with the journey now.

Living in the past is a waste, imo.

I had tried forgetting about it, but it wasn't working for me. But I think now I understand it. And that it didn't actually all mean what I thought it meant.

In reading about treatments for abuse survivors, one of the bottom lines I've seen several places, "Exposure Therapy" and "Dialect Behavioral Therapy" together gives the best outcome. Aside from simply medicating someone into anasthesia, that is.

This is simply a fancy way to say, relook at those things that you feel have negatively impacted you, and learn to think about them differently.

When I go to the Bible, God tells me something very different from what I used to think, something so radical, so different, and at the same to so liberating into God's love, that I want to spend the rest of my life bringing this understanding to others.

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Oh, and one other thing.

I would not say that God abused His Son. But I would say that God allowed Jesus to be terribly abused at the hands of others in order to work a far greater good.

And like Jesus said, He could have stopped it any time. But it was better that way. Suffering was the way to death, and death was the way to life.

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:49 pm

Yes but God was the author of that abuse
He conceived it in his mind before it happened.
It was his plan all along.

"It pleased the Lord to bruise him"
Matthew 1:22
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:00 pm

I agree that therapy can be very helpful in letting go of the past.

Sometimes it's necessary to understand things like intrusive thoughts in order to overcome them.

A few years ago I was depressed and had a terrible case of "religious OCD"
I might have went insane if God didn't lead me to a book that explained what I was experiencing. I read it over and over and today I don't have that issue anymore. He always leads us to the victory.

https://www.intrusivethoughts.org/ocd-s ... gious-ocd/
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:28 pm

So, is this off topic or.....I have a probing question.....
Yes, I have been raped and abused and have all sorts of drama in my past, which is the type of stuff we are talking about here....
BUT.....
Scripture says "...anything you ask in my name, it shall be given" and ALL I want is to be out of pain and I've asked for it every way I know how and....if anything, it's worse.
So.....I am struggling with whether, or how much, God really has to do with the here and now of everything.
I see horrific stuff happening to people all the time....every day....and I have really started to ask about where God is....it is significantly disturbing me.
That said, I am not willing to let go of my faith....
just trying to work out in my mind how "present" He is with us, as well as other related questions.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Jericho on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:54 pm

GodsStudent wrote:So, is this off topic or.....I have a probing question.....
Yes, I have been raped and abused and have all sorts of drama in my past, which is the type of stuff we are talking about here....
BUT.....
Scripture says "...anything you ask in my name, it shall be given" and ALL I want is to be out of pain and I've asked for it every way I know how and....if anything, it's worse.
So.....I am struggling with whether, or how much, God really has to do with the here and now of everything.
I see horrific stuff happening to people all the time....every day....and I have really started to ask about where God is....it is significantly disturbing me.
That said, I am not willing to let go of my faith....
just trying to work out in my mind how "present" He is with us, as well as other related questions.


GS, I'm a believer in super natural healing, and I can send you some resources if you would like. I also definitely believe God intervenes in our lives. Here is a story about a woman who almost lost her son in a boating accident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYZZpuZ1cU8 (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7yCsK3AlYY (Part 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqPNsoK9pL0 (Part 3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XifDFcMXpkU (Part 4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGJbhav1vbU (Part 5)

Her name is Ella Brunt and she goes to my church. I've heard her and her son's testimony in person, I've seen the hospital photos, and I know it's 100% true. I've also heard her son give an account of going to heaven. There is no doubt that her son's complete recovery was a miracle from God.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:47 pm

Yes. It was God's plan all along, and the rulers of the earth had no idea what they were doing. They were doing everything in their power to destroy Jesus, to prevent Jesus from saving us, but in the very act that was meant for destruction they brought about God's perfect plan, our salvation entirely by grace.

Joseph's brothers had no idea what they were doing. They were doing everything they could, or would, to get rid of Joseph, because they just couldn't stand that this little punk kid, probably how they thought about him, was saying he was going to rule over them.

The very act that was meant to remove him from their lives, and as collateral damage, destroy his life, was the thing that saved both Joseph, and his family, from starvation in the years to come. Joseph recognize that in the oft quoted, You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. Which was likewise Joseph's reason to forgive.

Solomon learned that God does the same things with people over and over throughout history in order to bring them to the correct relationship with Himself. His learning was that we don't realize this because people don't remember from one generation to the next, each lives life as though this were all a new thing.

I think the main difference between what happens to each of us in our lives it the degree to which it happens. I was struck while another was hated and another was murdered.

I cannot speak of the unsaved, I don't know, but the redeemed, those He did foreknow, to us, it is all and only for good.

Brutality, attrocity, inflicted unjustly against us, how can it be for good? But for Joseph, it was a part of saving his, and his family's lives.

Worse brutality, crucifixion, the unjust murder of the Just One, a crime they would be help accountable for. Allowed for glory, allowed to save.

Brutality, attrocity, inflicted unjustly against me, how can that be for good? But I am a child of God. And I trust Him in everything, I thank Him for everything, He loves me.

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:53 pm

I believe I experienced both a supernatural healing, and the Hard Way (still on it).

After an intense bout of suffering that permeated through so much of my being, Oh, let me count the ways . . .

I began to realize that all the issues from my abuse were gone.

A week went by. Two weeks. Three weeks. Had I really been healed? I felt I was living in the Spirit each moment, I'm not saying all was perfect (maybe it was very close) but all was absolutely amazing! After about 4 weeks, no, I hadn't, the obsessions, compulsions were creeping back in.

But I had seen that it was there.

Eventually, I was given the information that led me to understand about child abuse brain trauma, and what was actually happening with me. And I completely rejected it. And then began a very different kind of month as my brain chemistry went completely south, no longer bolstered by the former conversation, if you will.

Depression, pain, physical, mental, emotional, after the first month the worst began to lift. Over time I'm still not what I would call completely healed, and it may or may not happen this side of the veil. Some days can be pretty rough, for a lot of different reasons.

Again, I say this only for it's usefulness.

But it doesn't matter because I know this life is there, just up ahead. Where I am now is so much more than I was, with only the most amazing journey as my life.

Why didn't God do this for me years ago? I don't know. Why didn't He protect me as a child? I don't know. But I know this. God can take any kind of damaged goods and make us His beautiful people just because He wants to. And He wants to. He is. I can't explain His ways. But nothing can ever shake this faith. I know that I know that I know that my life is in God, in Jesus, and since He never dies, I never die, and as He lives, I live. And I love Him so much for what He's given to me in this world.

I have to assume I would have been so self-absorbed I would have never come to Jesus. What I truly know is I am chosen, not forsaken, never was forsaken, only redeemed.

My greatest hope is to share this hope with everyone I can, starting at home, here. That all of life, not just parts, can be joyful, if lived in faith. Our bodies, the corruption of the flesh resulting in both sin, and death because of sin, are difficult monsters to slay, sometimes. But God has promised. And we can rest in the promise of His love.

It's all for love, all in love for you, because you are so special, and in the ages to come, we will see the results of our afflictions, shining out as glory, weightier because of the weight of our afflictions. I don't know how, I don't know why, though I suspect it's about attention spans. But God has promised, it all works together for our good, afflictions are turned to far greater eternal glory.

We sing the song, as some do, Shine Jesus Shine, and in truth, Jesus wants you to shine, eternally, glorified through affliction just as He was.

He obeyed completely, completely surrendered, even to the point of crucifixion, therefore His Name is above all others. And now He calls us to follow.

OK, running out of time again!

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:03 pm

GS, I'm realizing I didn't address your central question, how close is God to us, through it all?

A real turning point for me in my life was realizing that when I was at my lowest level, thinking my worst thoughts, doing my worst acts, Jesus was right there with me to protect me from harm - the true harm, that which would not work for my good, and to help me through, and to lead me to health.

He was with me to love me. Just like at every other moment.

God tells us that He chose the poor in this world to be rich in faith. There are a lot of ways a person can be poor. Poor in money, but rich in faith. Poor in ability, but rich in faith. Weak in all things, but His strength is complete. Poor in health, but the righteous shall live by faith.

And this is what overcomes the world, even our faith.

It overcomes everything. Trials turned to gold, in Keith Green's words.

Beauty from ashes. The oil of joy instead of mourning. A garment of praise instead of that ol' spirit of heaviness.

If it's to be His strength in me, I've gotta figure, He has to be there with me.

In the Septuagint, the passage in Habbakuk reads, "The rightous ones, by My faith, they live".

Therefore it is no longer I that live, but Christ lives in me, and the live I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God. Faith that is either possessed by, or comes from, Jesus. The Source. The author and finisher of our faith. Jesus in me, and in you being our strength, as we look only to Him.

What an opportunity to experience Him! How strong He has to be, for how weak I am! How strong, how close, how much He has to personally care for me. The one who is forgiven much loves much. The one who stands at the edge of the sea, pressed on all sides, sees the deliverance of the Lord.

It can be hard to wait, for me, that's where the hard work happens.

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:32 pm

GS

We have to believe that God is always present with us, searching our hearts, living with in us, our body is His home. He's not distant, and his hands aren't tied. The bible says that He hears every word and knows every thought. Keeps every tear in a bottle. His thoughts of you are more in number the sand. Psalm 139.

Since you belong to him, you are his workmanship. He is the author and finisher of your faith. And all of the good works prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

He is taking you from faith to faith, glory to greater glory.

All of the days of your life we fashioned for you before you were born.

His eye is fixed on you watching you testing your heart. The bible says "he tests us every moment"

Did job want to suffer?
Did Jesus wasn't to suffer?

No but God allowed it for a specific reason.
God has a specific reason for your suffering.
It's part of your faith. Part of your story.

Job said, "though he slay me, yet I will trust in him"

So I pray that you take it easy and take care of yourself. It's hard to focus on God when you're in pain but even harder when you're super busy and distracted with cares of this life. Read the bible, and the psalms because they will give you strength.

Jesus didn't stop healing people when he left the earth. He still heals. he still does miracles. Don't stop asking. He does whatever he pleases.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:05 pm

GS, God sometimes leaves me alone to see how I will respond to Him within my circumstances, but He is never more than a step away from me so that He can catch me when I falter to lift me up again. It is my memories of God being there for me when I falter that helps me during my times of need to turn to God and simple say, "Lord, I need your help to walk through this period of trials that are surrounding me at this present time. Please continue drawing me into your loving embrace so that I can rest wholly within your grace to grow stronger and secure in who you are and to be secure in your presences with me at all times even when I FEEL ALL ALONE. Lord I am thankful that you never leave me, even when I descend into the valley of the second death through my deliberate choices and rejection of your Lordship over my life. Thankyou that you love me still and that you have promised to be my God even when I fall short. Simply put, Thanks Lord. Amen. PS Lord, Please help me to remember all of the times that you have really been there for me, so that I do not forget. Amen"

I really do get surprised by God all of the time as I reflect on my journey with Him.

Shalom
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:48 pm

Hi GS, I can relate to your feelings about how much He is or is not involved in our lives. We can all relate to pain in our lives, but some of us have to deal with way more of it. I like the statement, ‘Faith must be tested, and great faith must be tested greatly’.

But Lord, I didn’t volunteer for this kind of testing! No matter, it is He Who decides, and it is we who praise Him and love Him through it all.

I have been feeling very lonely in prayer for some time now and I have talked to Him about it. Years ago, I would have felt sorry for myself during real tough times and feeling alone during those times, so I am glad to at least be removed from that type of response. And I think it is faith that removes those negative and wrong responses.

I have been asking Him for quite some time now about whether or not I should get back into exercising. He has remained silent, along with being silent about much of everything. I began to exercise yesterday and I felt so much better. Even seemed to be able to control my overeating better, and so I think I have the answer I was looking for.

I know that He is proud of you GS, as He is with all of His children who, with faith and patience, endure to the end.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:55 am

Christians worship God when things are good, but when things are bad, they blame God.....
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:23 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:.... but when things are bad, they blame God.....


But doesn't that make perfect sense if you believe God controls every single thing that happens to you? In other words, He is orchestrating the bad events as well as the good?

My question is....where does that leave our free will, accountability for our bad choices, and/or our consciences?

To me, it resembles a "que-sera, sera" attitude with a few tears here and there.... :cheeky:
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:50 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:.... but when things are bad, they blame God.....


But doesn't that make perfect sense if you believe God controls every single thing that happens to you? In other words, He is orchestrating the bad events as well as the good?

My question is....where does that leave our free will, accountability for our bad choices, and/or our consciences?

To me, it resembles a "que-sera, sera" attitude with a few tears here and there.... :cheeky:



What's the point of rebuking the devil then?
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Slaying the Monster

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:24 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote: What's the point of rebuking the devil then?


I know Jesus rebuked the devil but to the best of my knowledge, we are told to resist; do not be deceived; stand firm; and use the weapons we have been provided against him. (Ephesians 6:10-17)
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