homophobia, The right Response

[slick]

Hello Gang,



I have been struggling with with the "Gay Agenda" Issue lately in fact for a long time.....but due to the Presidents recent announcement have really contemplated the issue and how it will impact our culture and society.



Though both sides of the fence would like to make this issue "CUT & DRY" in reasons for accepting or banning same sex marriage ,the situation is far more complex.



Let Me state for the record, that I have FRIENDS, FAMILY, and have worked in close relationship with homosexuals, and though perhaps they may disagree with the following post, it is my desire to maintain the relationship that I have established with each and everyone.



The Legalization of Homosexual Marriage is really an attempt to legislate and legitimize homosexuality in general.The term Homophobia is a created word that is designed to cast a negative light on ANYONE who questions the MORALITY issue of homosexuality.But Isn't this America? the right to choose ones own pursuit of happiness? the right to practice religion? the right to public demonstration? For certain there are those in today's culture as in any & all culture's before that " react before reason" when ever confronted with a paradigm shift. giving credence to a certain level of fear and criticism toward those of the opposition. Should this however, be transposed to ALL who oppose a given issue?



Taking the side of the Homosexual, I stand with them on any ABUSE or actions that Harm them their property their success, their individual right to the American Dream,their limitation or discrimination of employment, schooling or any other freedoms that granted under the Constitution of the US. As A Biblical CHRISTIAN I must however continue to voice the BIBLICAL truth which calls Homosexuality a SIN.



The mistake that is too often made by Christians in their regard and dealing with sin is twofold, first, they often times are guilty classifying sin into varying degrees or levels of severity. Though in MANS view there is some logic to that.....MURDER for instance is far more severe than Telling a White Lie.However, in GODS eyes all sins are EQUAL and are punishable by the same sentence eternity in HELL. So rather you are homosexual or a LIAR or a Murderer or Thief.... with out some intervention WE ALL stand guilty and under condemnation of a HOLY AND JUST GOD, and the punishment unlike our judicial system carry's the same punishment.The second Problem Christians at times make is Believing they have the right to carry out their own judgement on Gods behalf. This is NEVER the case unless you are an elected official given the task of upholding the law. For Example, IT IS NEVER acceptable to blow up abortion clinics or murder or harm an abortion doctor because you believe that abortion is murder or sin! In the Same way IT IS NEVER acceptable to discriminate, harm or hate homosexuals.



Jesus calls us to LOVE sinners and spread the good news of HIS death and resurrection to share the GOSPEL with the lowly and hurting and trapped.He gives us the example of how to do this in HIS word by HIS very demonstration of how HE interacts with those around HIM. Yet we see by the various stories, parables and encounters that He never accepts SIN as legitimate or tolerates a persons refusal to turn from their sin. He continues to live His life among those who were socially unacceptable and considered outcasts in His time. JESUS calls us to do the same!!!!!



In Today's POST MODERN world, the idea of SIN in any category has been reduced to a communal agreement of terms or toleration and with the consensus that there is NO ABSOLUTE truth any opposition to the community standard looks like unfounded fear. BUT there is ABSOLUTE TRUTH ! GOD! and HIS WORD!



Psa 119:160 (NASB) — The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.



Jhn 17:17 (NASB) — "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth."



The question then is " according to the Bible, Is Homosexuality SIN?



The short answer is YES......this can be demonstrated in several ways even eliminating the language or translation discrepancies. for instance.... it can be clearly shown that SEXUAL intimacy is reserved for MARRIAGE and only ONE partner for life. It can also be clearly demonstrated that We are to OBEY the laws of the land....hence at this point homosexual marriage is illegal in most states and regardless of public opinion or personal "feelings" violates the obeying of the law in which case violates the Sexual Intimacy guidelines set before man in Scripture. therefore, Homosexuality is SINFUL without mincing words.....just as sex before marriage to the opposite sex, or extra marital affairs and any other sexual relationship outside the guidelines set before us in Scripture.



This of course opens the next question, "What about when the law is changed or Where it is Legal? "Is it still SIN? YES! because it is an alteration of the STANDARD for companionship that GOD set up. Any Attempt to alter GODS standard is a declaration that WE/ I /YOU know better than GOD what is RIGHT & GOOD and is in fact a declaration THAT WE ARE GOD..... and that is IDOLATRY! this is not limited to the SIN of homosexuality, but any and all personal or legislated laws beliefs or practices that are in direct opposition to GODS standard.



So, Does God LOVE the homosexual? Can a practicing homosexual be a true Christian? The Debate of the age!!!!! If as I have shown that homosexuality is in FACT SIN by Biblical standards, then the answer is a RESOUNDING NO to all of the above.....



Psa 66:18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;



Hab 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they?



1Cr 6:9 (NASB) — Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor *effeminate, nor homosexuals,



Gal 5:21 (NASB) — envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



Act 17:30 (NASB) — "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,



Rom 6:1 (NASB) — What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Rom 6:2 (NASB) — May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?



Rom 6:23 (NASB) — For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.





So Gods word cautions us to turn from sin warns us of the consequences and asks us to remember the past......



1Cr 6:11 (NASB) — Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.



I am no better or no worse than any of my Gay friends, family or associates, I am a sinner guilty as charged deserving of death and eternity in Hell separated from God, BUT JESUS came and lived a SINLESS life, died on the Cross shed blood and conquered death through HIS resurrection.....making it possible if I accept His Atonement Turn from my sinful mindset (REPENT) to be reunited with GOD as ADAM was in the Garden.......and A future filled with promise!



I Love ALL my FRIENDS and FAMILY I do NOT FEAR any of them, (and would NEVER seek their HARM) but rather FOR some of them.....I DO NOT desire to alienate anyone in receiving the GIFT of GOD that I have received......However on the stance that I have taken I must stand firm....for it is better to PLEASE GOD than to PLEASE MEN!



Clarence

5-23-2012

[Resurrection Torchlight]

1Cr 6:11 (NASB) — Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I love this passage- because it shows that in Christ we can overcome- and have victory over sin, even the sin of homosexuality, which many claim cannot be overcome, but here we have evidence to the contrary.

RT

[Exit40]

Hi Clarence. Thanks for the thoughtful and Scripturally sound post. I agree entirely and have come to the same conclusions, actually just within the last year or so, not only about homosexuality but any sin, especially the ones I commit. Some passages that have helped me understand my own condition are these...

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Knowing I still sin, though I hate this in me, I came to the conclusion that if I cast a stone of judgement I was actually condemning myself.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The meaning of these Scriptures fearfully revealed to me has released me from the burden of being judge, jury, and executioner/condemner, a job that is much, much higher than my pay grade, and a responsibility I not only cannot meet but one I don't really even want as it taints me with conflict. I certainly don't want to condemn anyone to hell, lest I go there with them. In this world, in this flesh, it is sometimes difficult to keep this foremost in my thoughts. Yet I come around with the understanding by myself I am unable to conclude absolutes. As you stated, the only absolutes are God and His Word. I have found a certain kind of peace in these thoughts, a lighter yoke for my heart as I try to understand and apply the meaning of the patience and Faith of the Saints. A lofty goal for sure, but an attainable one through Christ who helps us to understand, as much as we are able, the incomprehensible depth of the Grace of our Father.

God Bless You

David

[Sword of Geddon]

Mystery Babylon will come into existence partly because of the church's refusal or inability not only point out wrongdoing but also in acting against it, as has happened each time the culture has "pushed" the envelop on immorality.

1940s: Sex out of wedlock was considered shameful and anyone who engaged in such practices were pariahs.

1950s: Sex out of wedlock was still considered shameful and anyone who engaged in such practices were pariahs. Hollywood and the music industry began to appear in force this decade. Playboy magazine was started in order to attack and change the Christian culture into a humanistic hedonist one.

1960s: Sex out of wedlock was still considered shameful and anyone who engaged in such practices were pariahs. God was thrown out of public schools early one. Later the youth, lead by the music industry and hollywood openly rebelled against God by engaging in hedonistic sex. This became known as the Homosexual revolution.

1970s: Sex out of wedlock began to rise. Abortion was legalized, starting a holocaust that would dwarf all previous mass-killings in human history. God and Christianity began to be openly mocked.

1980s: By this decade you clearly had two very different cultures in America, The Christian, and the Non-Believer. The decline in morality continued with the homosexual revolution succeeding the previous Sexual revolution.

1990s: It was declared "Character doesn't matter". Greed was celebrated in the popular culture. The Bible and Christians were openly mocked. Morality, Christian behavior were mocked and considered "old fashioned".

This culture is and has been exported via Hollywood. The overall attitude is "If it doesn't effect me, I won't oppose it.". This is the libertarianism America was founded on by people like Thomas Jefferson. This is not the Christian attitude of opposing evil and being salt to the world, light in the darkness.

You would be surprised as a Christian about how many of your views are from the culture...and not from the Bible or God himself.

The mindset and spirit of America today is that all religions are equally valid, that no bad behavior should be restricted or punished unless it harms another. This is not what God talks about in scripture. We are taught that all sins are equal, that all humans are just as bad. But simple logic, as well as scripture tells a different tale.

Certain humans are more righteous than others, just as some are more wicked than others. The same is true for spirits.

This path of libertarianism and relativism can only lead to one place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcH6T8zMrs8

Some will argue that evil is everywhere. They are correct. However, the United States is one of three places in history which claims to be founded on God. God always holds the house of God to the highest judgement. Mystery Babylon is said to have been one of those places..founded on God. In scripture a spiritual whore is something that claims to serve God, but worships other gods and things.

People on this board continue to not like me saying this...but this is the truth. This country either will repent..or it will become a whore.

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi Sword,

I'm not discounting your timeline of immorality, but please consider this. One only has to read scripture to see that these sins you mentioned have been around since the beginning of time. What has made it possible to "track" the supposed increase is the increase in the mode of communication and technology. That's why it seems more "in your face." As far as abortion is concerned, I'd be surprised if China didn't surpass the number in the U.S. but have now somewhat eliminated that procedure to a degree with forced sterilization.

The absolutely disgusting disregard for human life is not new. I can't fathom seeing human beings nailed to a cross or torn apart by animals for entertainment. We know there have been temples for male and female prostitutes from early days from scripture and we know that homosexuality was prevalent.

I'm not minimizing the depravity of mankind, but I know from scripture that this has been true from the beginning....not something that's increasing since the 1940's.

just my opinion.....

[Sword of Geddon]

Yes, but judgement begins with the House of God. The United States knew better, the country had a Judeo-Christian culture which pervaded everything.

That culture and faith came under attack by God's enemies, and when people were given a choose, they choice the wrong path. It was the youth that was targeted for this, and it is the youth today which again being targeted.

There was a time in this country when you could leave your doors unlocked and know you wouldn't be robbed. As God has been left out increasing, increasingly sin has increased, including sexual and violent crimes and just crime in general.

The more God has been kicked out..the more laws come on the books to try to compensate. There has been a genuine path of darkness the US has been descending into.

This path has been traveled before by other civilizations nearing their end, but the US claims, and has claimed a Godly heritage and culture. Judgement begins first at the house of God. The US has been the most blessed country in history for a reason, and will fall just as hard.

You mentioned Rome, Rome is a good example. Rome actually started with a strong family culture, but as time went on, they became more and more depraved until by the early empire leaders like Nero had hundreds of young male concubines(Disgusting), and the population's unhappiness was controlled by the circus maximus and colliseum games, where all manner of gruesome events occurred.

What changed Roman culture? Constantine. Constantine did much to change Rome from the pagan, wicked culture it was to the Christian culture it became. Rome still fell, but Christian Byzantium survived for almost another millennium.

All civilizations which grow increasingly immoral eventually fall. If that civilization was founded on Christianity/God, the fall is much harder.

[Sword of Geddon]

I should point out that behind all the "cultural revolutions" of the last sixty plus years in America have been a group who at their core are marxist and worse. The goal they have is to destroy the culture and the family in order to create a chaos which they will then take control of.

This vision is not limited to the United States. This group has counterparts in Europe as well. The ultimate goal is One world government. Their greatest ally are the mega-corporations, because the mega-corporations wish to be unrestrained by national laws.

This is why most of the mega-corporations(Which in years past would have been broken up due to anti-trust laws) support Obama. Soros is a big part of this as well.

[Abiding in His Word]

I posted this in another thread awhile back, but here is how one pastor responded to radical, militant homosexuals. It's the right response imo. A bit long, but worth the read.

[burien1]

I posted this in another thread awhile back, but here is how one pastor responded to radical, militant homosexuals. It's the right response imo. A bit long, but worth the read.

That is a great article, Abiding ! And I agree, the correct response.

[laney]

Hello Gang,



I have been struggling with with the "Gay Agenda" Issue lately in fact for a long time.....but due to the Presidents recent announcement have really contemplated the issue and how it will impact our culture and society.



Though both sides of the fence would like to make this issue "CUT & DRY" in reasons for accepting or banning same sex marriage ,the situation is far more complex.



Let Me state for the record, that I have FRIENDS, FAMILY, and have worked in close relationship with homosexuals, and though perhaps they may disagree with the following post, it is my desire to maintain the relationship that I have established with each and everyone.



The Legalization of Homosexual Marriage is really an attempt to legislate and legitimize homosexuality in general.The term Homophobia is a created word that is designed to cast a negative light on ANYONE who questions the MORALITY issue of homosexuality.But Isn't this America? the right to choose ones own pursuit of happiness? the right to practice religion? the right to public demonstration? For certain there are those in today's culture as in any & all culture's before that " react before reason" when ever confronted with a paradigm shift. giving credence to a certain level of fear and criticism toward those of the opposition. Should this however, be transposed to ALL who oppose a given issue?



Taking the side of the Homosexual, I stand with them on any ABUSE or actions that Harm them their property their success, their individual right to the American Dream,their limitation or discrimination of employment, schooling or any other freedoms that granted under the Constitution of the US. As A Biblical CHRISTIAN I must however continue to voice the BIBLICAL truth which calls Homosexuality a SIN.



The mistake that is too often made by Christians in their regard and dealing with sin is twofold, first, they often times are guilty classifying sin into varying degrees or levels of severity. Though in MANS view there is some logic to that.....MURDER for instance is far more severe than Telling a White Lie.However, in GODS eyes all sins are EQUAL and are punishable by the same sentence eternity in HELL. So rather you are homosexual or a LIAR or a Murderer or Thief.... with out some intervention WE ALL stand guilty and under condemnation of a HOLY AND JUST GOD, and the punishment unlike our judicial system carry's the same punishment.The second Problem Christians at times make is Believing they have the right to carry out their own judgement on Gods behalf. This is NEVER the case unless you are an elected official given the task of upholding the law. For Example, IT IS NEVER acceptable to blow up abortion clinics or murder or harm an abortion doctor because you believe that abortion is murder or sin! In the Same way IT IS NEVER acceptable to discriminate, harm or hate homosexuals.



Jesus calls us to LOVE sinners and spread the good news of HIS death and resurrection to share the GOSPEL with the lowly and hurting and trapped.He gives us the example of how to do this in HIS word by HIS very demonstration of how HE interacts with those around HIM. Yet we see by the various stories, parables and encounters that He never accepts SIN as legitimate or tolerates a persons refusal to turn from their sin. He continues to live His life among those who were socially unacceptable and considered outcasts in His time. JESUS calls us to do the same!!!!!



In Today's POST MODERN world, the idea of SIN in any category has been reduced to a communal agreement of terms or toleration and with the consensus that there is NO ABSOLUTE truth any opposition to the community standard looks like unfounded fear. BUT there is ABSOLUTE TRUTH ! GOD! and HIS WORD!



Psa 119:160 (NASB) — The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.



Jhn 17:17 (NASB) — "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth."



The question then is " according to the Bible, Is Homosexuality SIN?



The short answer is YES......this can be demonstrated in several ways even eliminating the language or translation discrepancies. for instance.... it can be clearly shown that SEXUAL intimacy is reserved for MARRIAGE and only ONE partner for life. It can also be clearly demonstrated that We are to OBEY the laws of the land....hence at this point homosexual marriage is illegal in most states and regardless of public opinion or personal "feelings" violates the obeying of the law in which case violates the Sexual Intimacy guidelines set before man in Scripture. therefore, Homosexuality is SINFUL without mincing words.....just as sex before marriage to the opposite sex, or extra marital affairs and any other sexual relationship outside the guidelines set before us in Scripture.



This of course opens the next question, "What about when the law is changed or Where it is Legal? "Is it still SIN? YES! because it is an alteration of the STANDARD for companionship that GOD set up. Any Attempt to alter GODS standard is a declaration that WE/ I /YOU know better than GOD what is RIGHT & GOOD and is in fact a declaration THAT WE ARE GOD..... and that is IDOLATRY! this is not limited to the SIN of homosexuality, but any and all personal or legislated laws beliefs or practices that are in direct opposition to GODS standard.



So, Does God LOVE the homosexual? Can a practicing homosexual be a true Christian? The Debate of the age!!!!! If as I have shown that homosexuality is in FACT SIN by Biblical standards, then the answer is a RESOUNDING NO to all of the above.....



Psa 66:18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;



Hab 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor On those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up Those more righteous than they?



1Cr 6:9 (NASB) — Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor *effeminate, nor homosexuals,



Gal 5:21 (NASB) — envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



Act 17:30 (NASB) — "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,



Rom 6:1 (NASB) — What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Rom 6:2 (NASB) — May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?



Rom 6:23 (NASB) — For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.





So Gods word cautions us to turn from sin warns us of the consequences and asks us to remember the past......



1Cr 6:11 (NASB) — Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.



I am no better or no worse than any of my Gay friends, family or associates, I am a sinner guilty as charged deserving of death and eternity in Hell separated from God, BUT JESUS came and lived a SINLESS life, died on the Cross shed blood and conquered death through HIS resurrection.....making it possible if I accept His Atonement Turn from my sinful mindset (REPENT) to be reunited with GOD as ADAM was in the Garden.......and A future filled with promise!



I Love ALL my FRIENDS and FAMILY I do NOT FEAR any of them, (and would NEVER seek their HARM) but rather FOR some of them.....I DO NOT desire to alienate anyone in receiving the GIFT of GOD that I have received......However on the stance that I have taken I must stand firm....for it is better to PLEASE GOD than to PLEASE MEN!



Clarence

5-23-2012

[laney]

I posted this in another thread awhile back, but here is how one pastor responded to radical, militant homosexuals. It's the right response imo. A bit long, but worth the read.

That is a great article, Abiding ! And I agree, the correct response.

again,

[clang]

I posted this in another thread awhile back, but here is how one pastor responded to radical, militant homosexuals. It's the right response imo. A bit long, but worth the read.

That is a great article, Abiding ! And I agree, the correct response.

I couldn't agree more Burien. Thanks Abiding. That is a great article. I know that on numerous occasions when I hear the militant homosexuals and their agenda, my first response is anger. I have even seen some debates at conservative web sites and even though they say some really disgusting things, we are still supposed to love them. If not for my King, my destiny would be the same one they are facing.

[Sword of Geddon]

The natural and correct response to evil is anger. There is no need to be ashamed of feeling what you should feel. I felt the same anger when I visited an emergent-type church that taught there were no such things as sinners and everyone was a creature in a continious state of transformation(Basicly a New Age church).

The point is how do you use that anger..and who it ultimately should be directed at if you catch my drift. Hint: The target shouldn't be a human.

[clang]

The natural and correct response to evil is anger. There is no need to be ashamed of feeling what you should feel. I felt the same anger when I visited an emergent-type church that taught there were no such things as sinners and everyone was a creature in a continious state of transformation(Basicly a New Age church).

The point is how do you use that anger..and who it ultimately should be directed at if you catch my drift. Hint: The target shouldn't be a human.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong but I have a question. Would that statement mean that Christians should be in a perpetual state of anger? I say this because I see sin of all kinds all day long, some of which are my own.

[Sword of Geddon]

No, just that Christians feeling anger at injustice and evil is natural. I'm not saying we should be the Incredible Hulk and walk around angry all the time yelling "CHRISTIAN SMASH!" hehe only kidding, but not about the angry all the time thing.

[mark s]

You ask, can a practicing homosexual be a Christian?

I would answer you with another question . . .

Can a practicing "worrier" be a Christian? Can a practicing covetous person be a Christian? Can a "luster" be a Christian?

What makes you a Christian?

I think we miss the point what we start to focus on what particular sins we see in certain people. The real issue is this. If you have not received God's reconciliation, then you are lost in the death of sin. If you have, God has given you rebirth as His child. And this means you are no longer that person.

Even though that person who you once were, the "old man", the flesh, may express itself through your body, this is no longer you.

Can a practicing homosexual be a Christian? The answer reads the other way. A Christian is not a practicing homosexual. Neither is a Christian a liar. Neither is a Christian a worrier. Although in any of us who are true Christians, the flesh nature sometimes exerts itself, so we don't do the things we want.

The right response in my book . . . keep the main thing the main thing . . . everybody needs Jesus. Even when someone is focused on their homosexuality, I don't need to fall into that trap. I just need to tell them about Jesus. They want to make it a matter of their sexual expression, but that's not the point. Everybody needs Jesus, just the same.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I posted a link earlier to an example of how one pastor responded to militant homosexuals which I believe is the right way. Here's an example of the wrong way another pastor responds to the homosexual issue:

Pastor Charles Worley is the preacher at Providence Baptist Church in Maiden. In Worley’s May 13 sermon, originally posted on the church’s website (it has been removed), a video shows him speaking out against gay marriage and President Barack Obama’s support of it.

“I figured a way out - a way to get rid of all the lesbians and ****** - but I couldn't get it past the Congress," Worley said during the sermon.

“Build a great big, large fence--50 or 100 miles long--put all the lesbians in there. Fly over and drop some food. Do the same thing with the ****** and the homosexuals and have that fence electrified so they can't get out. Feed them. And you know in a few years, they'll die out. You know why? They can't reproduce," said Worley

They've taken down their web site but you can read the about the response to his sermon here.

How is this hatred different from that of Hitler's regime in an effort to eliminate entire groups of the population for one reason or another?

[clang]

Abiding, It sounds like that pastor got his teaching from the Westboro Baptist Church. That is a pretty disgraceful statement to make and his pride will cause his ministry to suffer. Sad to say the least.
Sword, I know where you are coming from. The sin of homosexuality doesn't make me angry in itself, just sad. However, trying to jam it down our kid's throats in school or on the television really ticks me off and sometimes that anger causes me to come close to sinning myself and I'll even admit crossing that line on occasion.

[Exit40]

I'm trying to think of when the phrase ' having it jammed down my throat ' came about. Maybe about in '08 ?

God Bless

David

[Sword of Geddon]

I for one am sick of hearing about it, I'm tired of homosexuality being forced on everyone and I'm tired of being told its good or normal. I'm also tired of being insulted if I disagree with this agenda, tired of being called names if I tell or say to anyone that it is wrong.

My brother recently married a woman who has very liberal views with regards to homosexuality. Formerly to meeting this woman he was just as opposed to the gay thing as I was back then. Now there are certain taboo topics in my house we can't talk about, homosexuality is one of them. My brother now is brainwashed, either that or he says the things he does because he doesn't want to offend his wife.

So I don't want to love gays..and I'm not going to make myself do so. To me its like loving a cannibal or a serial killer...I view homosexuality the same way...like a plague on society, spread by those with the desire to destroy anything good or decent in this world.

Let God do the saving, I'll let others do the witnessing. Because that person won't be me. This behavior was a crime in many states until very recently for a reason. It still is a crime in many countries in the world. With good reason. God will save a soul, but that does not mean society should allow nor condone debauchery, just as it does not(and should not) ignore violent crime or murder.

Even now I feel the corrupt influence trying to make me feel guilty, the peer pressure the gay agenda has infected this country with. The pressure to get people to shut up and/or adopt a libertarian(apathetic) view of this issue. Slowly I see even the Church in this country succumb to the cancer. People who stand against it, even Christians among Christians are called all manner of names.

I'm tired of it. Homosexuality is more than a sin. It is a cancer. You don't fight evil by being silent, you speak against it. If some call that bigotry..than bigotry has now become a virtue because I won't let the gay community and their pathetic insults shut me up.

[Sword of Geddon]

Maybe I'm just really upset at what happened to my brother..but I think I have the right to be.

[Mark F]

You ask, can a practicing homosexual be a Christian?

I would answer you with another question . . .

Can a practicing "worrier" be a Christian? Can a practicing covetous person be a Christian? Can a "luster" be a Christian?

What makes you a Christian?

I think we miss the point what we start to focus on what particular sins we see in certain people. The real issue is this. If you have not received God's reconciliation, then you are lost in the death of sin. If you have, God has given you rebirth as His child. And this means you are no longer that person.

Even though that person who you once were, the "old man", the flesh, may express itself through your body, this is no longer you.

Can a practicing homosexual be a Christian? The answer reads the other way. A Christian is not a practicing homosexual. Neither is a Christian a liar. Neither is a Christian a worrier. Although in any of us who are true Christians, the flesh nature sometimes exerts itself, so we don't do the things we want.

The right response in my book . . . keep the main thing the main thing . . . everybody needs Jesus. Even when someone is focused on their homosexuality, I don't need to fall into that trap. I just need to tell them about Jesus. They want to make it a matter of their sexual expression, but that's not the point. Everybody needs Jesus, just the same.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I have to think of the woman caught in adultry, even though the man was not brought and it appears to be a set up, Jesus told her that He did not condem her, but He said go and sin no more. The fact that a homosexual turns from the sin and lifestyle that they once embraced must be evident as proof of genuine saving faith no?

[Keeping Alert]

You ask, can a practicing homosexual be a Christian?

I would answer you with another question . . .

Can a practicing "worrier" be a Christian? Can a practicing covetous person be a Christian? Can a "luster" be a Christian?

What makes you a Christian?

I think we miss the point what we start to focus on what particular sins we see in certain people. The real issue is this. If you have not received God's reconciliation, then you are lost in the death of sin. If you have, God has given you rebirth as His child. And this means you are no longer that person.

Even though that person who you once were, the "old man", the flesh, may express itself through your body, this is no longer you.

Can a practicing homosexual be a Christian? The answer reads the other way. A Christian is not a practicing homosexual. Neither is a Christian a liar. Neither is a Christian a worrier. Although in any of us who are true Christians, the flesh nature sometimes exerts itself, so we don't do the things we want.

The right response in my book . . . keep the main thing the main thing . . . everybody needs Jesus. Even when someone is focused on their homosexuality, I don't need to fall into that trap. I just need to tell them about Jesus. They want to make it a matter of their sexual expression, but that's not the point. Everybody needs Jesus, just the same.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Amen!

p.s. How can I get your book, Mark?

[clang]

Maybe I'm just really upset at what happened to my brother..but I think I have the right to be.

I understand your feelings and anger Sword. I really do. Just one word of caution. You and I did nothing to deserve our salvation any more than the homosexual. It is truly a sin that is speeding up the downfall of our country but greed is just as responsible. And lying. And stealing..........

[Tevye]

Pastor who gave anti-gay sermon draws
hundreds of protesters in North Carolina
news.yahoo.com

[Tevye]

Teen wins right to wear 'Jesus Is Not a Homophobe' T-shirt to school
-
“We’re very happy for ...all LGBT students in Ohio,”
“If school officials had any doubt before, it’s clear now: usnews.msnbc.msn.com
"We need to accept others how they come no matter their religion, sexual orientation,...
Everyone is who they are. We all need to come together as a whole and accept everyone.”

[Jericho]

I don't even like the word "homophobe". It's an activist created catch-phrase meant to demonize and marginalize anyone who disagrees with that lifestyle.

[T-Minus?]

I agree with Sword on this one. I had a brother kidnapped and murdered by a homosexual. This particular piece of human debris had been pronounced as "cured" by the psychiatric community at the time. That was years ago before they decided it should be reclassified as "normal" behavior. I am sick to death of being called homophobe and bigot by these aberrants and their supporters. I am also sick of being lectured to about unforgiveness by Christian brethren. I believe God spoke definitively at Sodom and Gommorah as well as in Leviticus 20:13. I would that they would repent and be saved also. However, that is Gods' concern and not mine. Maranatha!!

[Keeping Alert]

I had a brother kidnapped and murdered by a homosexual.

I am currently in a bible study group with this guy who had a humbling testimony.

He had a sister who suffered an attempted rape that ended in her murder when she resisted her male classmate. To cut the story short, the family decided to forgive this guy and even witnessed to him in jail. He eventually became a Christian and now the families are best of friends and have lunch at each other's homes every weekend.

Like Mark said... the liars, the thief, the cheat, the hypocrite, the rapist, the murderer, the gay... whoever.... they all need Jesus.

[slick]

Hello Gang,

As I have been reading and following the posts & responses It is clear that this is an issue that not only troubles me but many of you in fact probably all of us! One of the Key Biblical texts dealing with this issue when closely examined provides an interesting possibility.

Romans 1:17 - 1:32

As I have studied this passage quite thoroughly, I have come to see its message perhaps a little different than many...in broad context I see this as an overview of the worlds course and mans continued deprivation and deterioration and Gods response to it culminating with the final judgement.

but look closely at : Rom 1:23 (NASB) — and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and *crawling creatures.

this represents a transition from a Generally GOD based society to a MAN based society..... no look at GODS response.

Rom 1:24 (NASB) — Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

and as the depravity continues to furtheu spiral downward.....

Rom 1:25 (NASB) — For they exchanged the truth of God for *a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed *forever. Amen. now its not just "eviloution" ideology it is actually worship and serving MAN and Creation.... GODS continued response...

Rom 1:26 (NASB) — For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is *unnatural,

Rom 1:27 (NASB) — and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing *indecent acts and receiving in *their own persons the due penalty of their error.

The Phrase GOD GAVE THEM OVER are perhaps the scariest words written in scripture because it depicts GODS total abandonment of the subjects whom are being spoken of and with no escape from the impending judgment. in fact the HOMOSEXUAL and degrading passions are a JUDGEMENT unto themselves. the passage continues with a list of characteristics that will be evident before the final abandonment of GOD and a picture of the general worldview.....but look at the final verse in the text;

Rom 1:32 (NASB) — and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Wouldn't you all agree we live in "THAT" society today! EVIL has become the norm, sin no longer exists and laws and governments are condoning and in fact pushing evil down our throats and passing laws that will soon corral us into a complete minority that will cause us to face consequences for our stand on Biblical principles.

Having said that, what is OUR response, How do we face and treat a sinful society that is quickly becoming abandoned by GOD and left to face judgement with NO HOPE of redemption? we continue to preach repentance, salvation, grace, and let GOD continue to choose if HE will! JUST LIKE NOAH!!!!!! continued to preach and warn a society that had completely abandoned GOD and relied on self....... HATE, HARM, ABUSE,are never a proper response to the Ill's that trouble us but we are instead called to love our enemies. GOD always HAS,DOES and WILL CONTINUE to choose who belong in HIS kingdom, we are just the mouthpiece to spread the gospel message.

GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL LION SOON ROARS!,
Clarence

[Tevye]

sheriff denies report that pastor got death threats over anti-gay video

...a local pastor has received death threats over a viral video of his congregation
cheering a young boy as he sang: "Ain't no **** gonna make it to heaven."

“To my knowledge, there are no death threats at this time,” Decatur County Sheriff
Gregory Allen told FoxNews.com. He was responding to a report on TMZ.com that
Jeff Sangl, pastor of Apostolic Truth Tabernacle Church in Greensburg, Ind.,
had received death threats after the video hit the Internet Wednesday.

The video shows a boy who appears to be just four or five years old singing the
offending lyric as congregants applaud. Church members told the website the
church has since received harassing phone calls
and Sangl has gotten death threats at home.
-
The video, which had at least 8,000 views apiece in two separate
versions early Friday, prompted charged responses from viewers on YouTube.

“The mindless cheering is the most disgusting part,” one commenter wrote.
“If these morons are going to heaven, I'd rather burn in hell.”

Another comment read: “The kids are cute but it's sick
how the adults manipulated them into singing that.”
foxnews.com/us

[Abiding in His Word]

Anyone remember this tune from South Pacific musical?

You've got to be taught to hate and fear
You've got to be taught from year to year
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught

You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be carefully taught

[Sword of Geddon]

I agree with Sword on this one. I had a brother kidnapped and murdered by a homosexual. This particular piece of human debris had been pronounced as "cured" by the psychiatric community at the time. That was years ago before they decided it should be reclassified as "normal" behavior. I am sick to death of being called homophobe and bigot by these aberrants and their supporters. I am also sick of being lectured to about unforgiveness by Christian brethren. I believe God spoke definitively at Sodom and Gommorah as well as in Leviticus 20:13. I would that they would repent and be saved also. However, that is Gods' concern and not mine. Maranatha!!

I'm so sorry about your brother.

So many Christians these days are focused only on forgiveness and such, and not enough on the fire and the brimstone that calls people to repentance. They cherry-pick verses about forgiveness, and ignore Leviticus, Timothy and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah(Where the term Sodomy comes from).

Too much political correctness among believers these days. We need more pastors at the pulpits screaming fire and brimstone..that a person's sin, no matter what it is, will lead them to hell.

We need more of that..and less "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

[Tevye]

Anyone remember this tune from South Pacific musical?

You've got to be taught

This one?

[Abiding in His Word]

Sword, a gospel of hate just makes no sense! I, too, am sorry about T-Minus' brother. There are many such sorrowful incidents in life committed against those who are not deserving of such treatment.

I'm not going to research the statistics, but I'm willing to bet more homosexuals are killed by those who hate them than the other way around. So aside from hating that sin, do we know how many children are sexually assaulted by predators? They deserve our hate? How about pastors who commit adultery? Take a look the video voyerism this alleged man of God did in his own church!! And we know that porn is rampant in our country and our churches as well. Are they deserving of hate? Do you know how many women are being beaten and abused by their husbands in the world and no doubt within our churches as well? Is it possible you may be sitting in church next to a woman who has had an abortion or two in her lifetime? Murderers, extortionists, gamblers, and addictions of all types are also grave sins.

Fire and brimstone is ok providing it does not continually single out one particular sin and ignore all the others we are guilty of. Fire and brimstone is ok providing it is balanced with the gospel/good news that these are the very ones Jesus suffered and died for! It is not the righteous who need Him.....

Is it any wonder Christianity has become synonymous with hate and bigotry. Remember that Paul (the murderer of thousands) said, "such were some of you....."

[Abiding in His Word]

Anyone remember this tune from South Pacific musical?

You've got to be taught

This one?

Yes! I'll always remember those words as some of that teaching was "inadvertently?" passed on to many of us I'm afraid. That was a great musical! Thanks for the link!

[T-Minus?]

More homosexuals are killed by killed by other homosexuals by the spreading of deadly disease. I recall a stat a few years ago that the average hs lives to their mid 40's so it is obviously an unhealthy life choice. I'm not sure what it is for lesbians. Most predator/pedophiles are older men after young boys-clearly a homosexual act. My world doesn't revolve around fretting about homosexuals or fantisizing "hate" about them. In fact I believe the term "hate" has been inordinately misappropriated and applied much the same way as the term "gay". I would like to see them all renounce their choice and embrace Jesus but such seems unlikely. In the meantime, I will fight tooth and nail to keep their lifestyle out of the public schools (which is the primary focus of propagandizing and recruitment). If you want to see some real hate, check out how they treat Christians in speech and action. Sometimes you just run out of cheeks to turn. And, as Forest Gump would say " That's all I have to say about that". Maranatha!!

[Tevye]

Anyone remember this tune from South Pacific musical?

You've got to be taught

This one?

Yes! I'll always remember those words as some of that teaching was "inadvertently?" passed on to many of us I'm afraid. That was a great musical! Thanks for the link!

You're welcome.
A good reverse psychology message in the music...

[Sword of Geddon]

It is homosexuality which is now being promoted. It is the children in public schools in many states who are made the victim of propaganda. The students in colleges, forced to watch as homosexual men describe in detail homosexual acts.

If hating that is a sin then I am guilty. If hating this deviant cancer is a crime than call the police and arrest me.

I don't care. Want to know why? Because the God I serve and believe in feels the same way I do. He is a God of justice..not just of love, like so many who believe themselves saved claim. Grace is not an excuse to keep sinning.

Too many, Too many people make excuses and almost act like it is Christian's fault these gay men and woman are the way they are. That is a lie and statement straight from the devil himself.

It is not my fault my cousins are cruel and evil to their own mother just because she does not approve of their lifestyle. It is not my mother's friend's fault that her daughter treats her own mother horribly for the same reasons.

If Sodomy was enough for God to destroy two cities in ancient times..we should not be taking the sin lightly.

[Keeping Alert]

Grace is not an excuse to keep sinning.

RIght on!

I also agree that there is evil in their agenda. I personally was targeted to be one of them when I was still single. And I saw the stealth and cunning in their actions. And too many (so many) have fallen to their tricks and traps.

And it makes my blood boil and my spirit depressed to see another fall victim. How long O Lord!

What can we do?

Well, we can pray for that sinner.

I think we do well to identify homosexuality as a terrible sin. But it is another thing that it repels us so much that we cannot even bring ourselves to pray for the sinner. Pray that he has the strength to acknowledge it as a sin and stop living it.

I believe that many homosexuals are actually struggling. They put on a brave front but inwardly they despise themselves.

And not that I am biased or otherwise, I personally would pray more for the homosexual who calls himself Christian. It sure is an oxy-moron (as much as an unforgiving, bitter, unloving Christian is an oxy-moron) but only God knows all things but let's not underestimate the power of Grace. God might have saved this practicing homosexual and is in the process of changing him. Let's give God so time and grace too...

In the meantime, we can pray...

[laney]

Jesus hated sin but not the sinner. He died for that cause, that He loved us that much, not while we were as innocent children but in our most vilest form. I think Jesus wants us to have the same spirit as He does toward sin. Its ok to hate the sin and fight against it, but it is not ok to hate the person themselves. They need prayer.

[Sword of Geddon]

I don't hate individual homosexuals. I hate homosexuality itself, just thought I'd clarify.

[brett]

Personally I think we need to care more about God than the sinner. Has anyone considered how deeply God is offended by the total trashing of His most basic of laws? Has anyone considered Gods position in all of this? Look at Christ's reaction to those who were selling in God's temple, consider Jesus's reaction today if he walked past a modern day Mardi Gra parade, which are even planned for Jerusalem now. I think we all under-estimate how seriously these sins are offending God, in fact I think that's why things are so bad these days, we have lost touch with the concept that God can be deeply offended. Have you considered how God is feeling and what we should be doing to support God? It may sound strange saying that but I think we've lost this idea that we have power to pull down strongholds and forcefully advance what is right and true and God's ultimate will. We are meant to be fighting the enemy because we love God foremost and want His Kingdom to come, we are not meant to be putting the sinner first and focusing our actions on what pleases him/her. Compassion that paves a road to more sin is not Godly compassion.

[Sword of Geddon]

Personally I think we need to care more about God than the sinner. Has anyone considered how deeply God is offended by the total trashing of His most basic of laws? Has anyone considered Gods position in all of this? Look at Christ's reaction to those who were selling in God's temple, consider Jesus's reaction today if he walked past a modern day Mardi Gra parade, which are even planned for Jerusalem now. I think we all under-estimate how seriously these sins are offending God, in fact I think that's why things are so bad these days, we have lost touch with the concept that God can be deeply offended. Have you considered how God is feeling and what we should be doing to support God? It may sound strange saying that but I think we've lost this idea that we have power to pull down strongholds and forcefully advance what is right and true and God's ultimate will. We are meant to be fighting the enemy because we love God foremost and want His Kingdom to come, we are not meant to be putting the sinner first and focusing our actions on what pleases him/her. Compassion that paves a road to more sin is not Godly compassion.

Amen...well said..and very true.

Jerusalem is God's holy city, having filth like a Mardi Gra or other disgusting parade is eventually desecration of what is sacred, even if only in a symbolic manner.

[Keeping Alert]

Personally I think we need to care more about God than the sinner. Has anyone considered how deeply God is offended by the total trashing of His most basic of laws? Has anyone considered Gods position in all of this? Look at Christ's reaction to those who were selling in God's temple, consider Jesus's reaction today if he walked past a modern day Mardi Gra parade, which are even planned for Jerusalem now. I think we all under-estimate how seriously these sins are offending God, in fact I think that's why things are so bad these days, we have lost touch with the concept that God can be deeply offended. Have you considered how God is feeling and what we should be doing to support God? It may sound strange saying that but I think we've lost this idea that we have power to pull down strongholds and forcefully advance what is right and true and God's ultimate will. We are meant to be fighting the enemy because we love God foremost and want His Kingdom to come, we are not meant to be putting the sinner first and focusing our actions on what pleases him/her. Compassion that paves a road to more sin is not Godly compassion.

2nd Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Of course, God is deeply offended. But is God deeply offended by our lies and hypocrisy? When we sing I Surrender All and not do it? The unsaved homosexual knows no better but we who are illumined and indwelled with the Holy Spirit continue to sin with lust and greed and selfishness and pride? Is God deeply offended with such?

But by the Grace of God we are saved!

The passage says that God is long-suffering towards our sins... and is not willing that any should perish... and that ALL should come to repentance. I think ALL means ALL.

If we care about how God feels... I think this passage should not be overlooked

[Sword of Geddon]

God wants salvation for everyone...but he knows that most will prefer evil to good and continue on their way, rejecting salvation for a life of hedonism, and an afterlife of eternal damnation.

Repeat it to yourself. God is a God of love and grace..but also one of justice.

[Abiding in His Word]

God wants salvation for everyone...but he knows that most will prefer evil to good

That's the whole point, Sword. We don't know who is who and which is which when we encounter sinners.

[Keeping Alert]

God wants salvation for everyone...but he knows that most will prefer evil to good and continue on their way, rejecting salvation for a life of hedonism, and an afterlife of eternal damnation.

Repeat it to yourself. God is a God of love and grace..but also one of justice.

2nd Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

God is all of the above.

The story of salvation is that we who deserve justice and an ending with hell, meets a God of love and grace and we accept that salvation met out through Jesus Christ and we are changed spiritually and positionally in-Christ.

Justice will eventually be met out... but read the passage above again and the order is clear... (really read it again)

It seems to me that the passages says that God is one of justice... but God is a God of love and grace. Read it again... really... and repeat it to yourself and see if makes a difference.

[mark s]

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 LITV
(16) So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so.
(17) So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!
(18) And all things are from God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation,
(19) as, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging their deviations to them, and having put the Word of reconciliation in us.
(20) Then on behalf of Christ, we are ambassadors, as God is exhorting through us, we beseech on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God.
(21) For He made the One who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I believe we are currently in a dispensation of Grace. God is withholding the judgment that He will not withhold forever, giving us time to complete our mission.

Jesus was in the world not counting people's sins against them. Do we dare do differently?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Sword of Geddon]

2 Corinthians 5:16-21 LITV
(16) So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so.
(17) So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!
(18) And all things are from God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation,
(19) as, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging their deviations to them, and having put the Word of reconciliation in us.
(20) Then on behalf of Christ, we are ambassadors, as God is exhorting through us, we beseech on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God.
(21) For He made the One who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I believe we are currently in a dispensation of Grace. God is withholding the judgment that He will not withhold forever, giving us time to complete our mission.

Jesus was in the world not counting people's sins against them. Do we dare do differently?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Christ was not pleased when he saw the temple turned into a marketplace. Christ was not afraid of calling the pharisees and others what they truely were. Christ did count their sins against them.

We are Christians. Christians have been commanded to be light and salt to the world. Sometimes salt is bitter, meaning we point out things others may not like to hear. Christians are not supposed to act and say things that people want to hear, but what they need to hear.

This culture does not like being told when it is wrong. This culture wants to say everyone is going to heaven, and that being judgemental is wrong.

How much of your views are shaped by the culture...and how much of them are shaped by what God says in his word..and not just the verses that conform to your image of how God should be.