The tie's that bind the future

[Test4echo]

Rumors of Wars, Rumors of nothing.

We have all been looking for signs and wonders. Our eyes opened to the sea and sky for tragedy that is supposedly coming...

What if it isn't.

What if scripture has laid down the roots of rumor and not reality?

What if John had seen folklore instead of fact?

What if Jesus, Daniel and John had spoke about perception at "that time" instead of fact?

The fact is, we are watching a world government emerge not in the midst of disaster, but perceived and imagined disaster. All around us is "What ifs and imagined consequences" but no real threat.

What if they were trying to tell us that the Anit-Christ would emerge not in the midst of real disaster but a Man-Satan made imaginary hoax that would cause all small and great to usher in the anti-christ based on lies?

December is the Copenhagen treaty. We all know what could happen if that treaty is signed.

However, the entire treaty is based upon lie after lie.

Are we going to hand over the planet, our Countries, our freedoms because we have been lied to?

No giant waves roaring, no earthquakes to to end all earthquakes, no killer asteroids from the skies?

Maybe this is exactly what Jesus and the prophets warned us about.

Not a real catastrophe, but one imaged. One forced down are throats as if it were impending........

Maybe we have missed the point of the prophecies.

Satan is a Liar, Man is easily convinced.

Tell mankind that unless you hand over your freedom, your religion, your lives that earth is doomed and great environmental disaster awaits. Roaring seas, Plagues, famine, fire from above......

Where is it?
We are on the precipice of the formation of a One World Order.
We've seen Roaring Sea's, Killer Asteroids, Glaciers melting, Fire From above......but only in threats, in stories all based upon Anthropomorphic Global Warming, all designed to scare the world into accepting something false and something unholy.....all propagated by non other than the UNITED NATIONS...

Maybe our interpretation of prophecy was wrong. Maybe none of it was literal at all.
Maybe It really was a message of:

"Beware when the rumors sounds like this"

test,

[noble1]

The point is, we could all spend our lives wondering "what if!"... but, we know the Truth and the one who lived out the Truth! I choose to Trust in Jesus and not buy into all of these what if scenarios!

[SwordofGideon]

I think if we want to determine if the prophecies of the future or literal or figurative we should look to the prophecies of the past. To the dozens of prophecies that have already been fulfilled, from Ezekiel predicting Israel would be a nation again to Daniel predicting the kingdoms to come. All those prophesies were literal and they came to pass. So when the scriptures say that a time is coming "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." I take it at face value. What we are seeing right now with the UN is the stage being set for the prophecies of John, Ezekiel, and others to come to pass.

[Swayde]

I think if we want to determine if the prophecies of the future or literal or figurative we should look to the prophecies of the past. To the dozens of prophecies that have already been fulfilled, from Ezekiel predicting Israel would be a nation again to Daniel predicting the kingdoms to come. All those prophesies were literal and they came to pass. So when the scriptures say that a time is coming "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." I take it at face value. What we are seeing right now with the UN is the stage being set for the prophecies of John, Ezekiel, and others to come to pass.

Agreed.

[mark s]

I agree also.

The Biblical pattern of prophetic fulfillment has been very literal, so I am expecting literal fulfillments.

If it were otherwise, without giving us the "key" to interpret the figures and symbols, were such things to be figures and symbols, we'd all just be giving our own opinions.

I believe that when God intended something to be understood as a symbol, or figurative, He told us, and He also told us what the figure or symbol meant.

Love in Christ,

Mark

[Adamantine]

I take prophecy as literal but I appreciate the perspective and think a little of your sense of things adds to our understanding as we will see
all of the events transpire in the midst of lies.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

The way I see it, there have been disasters all around us for... well for ever. I just watched a PBS show on the dust bowl, talk about desolation. The birth pains have been going on since the birth of the church, the effects of the four horsemen have been part of the landscape as well. I am not waiting for any disaster, I am waiting for the rapture- the great unimaginable disaster follows later. However I do think that there will be perceived disaster as you say, and perhaps an exaggeration of disasters that are occurring as they always have, such as we see with the H1N1 pandemic. IMO this will occur to deceive people into believing that the beginning of the 70th week is actually its end. But that is all theory on my part.

RT

[Test4echo]

It just seems to me that with the stage already being set for a One World Government, we, have not much time to witness these environmental disasters as "real".
However, if you think back to the late 60's and 70's the ground work for environmental disaster's started happening in the media and film. It's Everywhere now!

When we "see" these things come to pass.........

Think about that. When we "see". Seeing these things come to pass whether on film and imaginary is the SAME as seeing it happen for real. Seeing is seeing. Why are we making the distinction between "seeing" on Films and books and "seeing" first hand?
There is NO DIFFERENCE.
We only know the real disasters are real because we "see" them, guess where? ON TV.
How many in this forum saw the Tidal Wave occur a few years ago?
Not many. But we have all "seen" it come to pass because of Television and newspaper.

Where in scripture did Jesus, John or Daniel make a distinction between what we would "see" in person and what we would "see" and believe on television?

I don't think they did.
They only said you would "see" these things come to pass on the earth. "SEE"

I don't know about you, but that IS prophecy fulfilled right down to the letter.
We ALL HAVE seen these things happen to the earth.
Some real, some lies, but we have seen them....

test,

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi Test4echo,

Tell me if I'm hearing you correctly....you're not denying the literal words of the Bible, but rather are saying that we don't have to "experience" some things enviornmentally in order to "see" them happen. And by "seeing" them as opposed to actually "experiencing" them, scripture is fulfilled. Is that what you're saying?

[Test4echo]

Hi Test4echo,

Tell me if I'm hearing you correctly....you're not denying the literal words of the Bible, but rather are saying that we don't have to "experience" some things enviornmentally in order to "see" them happen. And by "seeing" them as opposed to actually "experiencing" them, scripture is fulfilled. Is that what you're saying?

Hi Abiding in His Word,

Actually, not only am I NOT denying the literal words of scripture, I base this on being absolutely literal in the sense that "seeing" is something we do with our eyes. Regardless of what our expectations are, (many expect to see these things come to pass for real... all of them) we cannot deny that "seeing" these disasters regardless of location, time, real or not real, we have SEEN them.

Never before in History has mankind been able to "see" the things we have seen. Television has provided us that opportunity to witness as an entire planet, whatever God or Satan wishes us to "see". All at the same time, regardless of location, time, true or untrue.

In the most literal sense of the word, what we see, is what we see.

If that is the case, then we may be waiting or looking for prophecy that has Already (or happening now) been fulfilled in its most literal sense.
If people believe that literal fulfillment means just that, then maybe we have overlooked what has been happening under our noses.

test,

[Abiding in His Word]

Thanks for clarifying, Test4echo! I agree that technology enables us to see, hear, and learn about things that 50 yrs. ago would not have been possible. Amazing day we live in!

[Test4echo]

Thanks for clarifying, Test4echo! I agree that technology enables us to see, hear, and learn about things that 50 yrs. ago would not have been possible. Amazing day we live in!

Although what you say is true, it is still not what I am suggesting.

When the scriptures said you would see these things come to pass, maybe scripture WAS speaking literally, but at the same time, scripture was talking about things we would "see" on Television and in print media.

This makes a huge difference because what we see on Television and print media, may OR MAY NOT have actually happened in the sense that it was something that physically occurred on the planet.

When we see these things happen, whether on TV as fiction or whether real reporting of an event that physically happened may not have been the point.

For example, If i were a prophet and said you would "see" the "Sun" explode in the next week, you may be expecting the Sun to physically explode.
However, what if, You were channel surfing one day and came across a program that was about The Sun and it had a segment about the sun exploding, and you "witnessed" and saw the Sun explode?

Would my prophecy be considered fulfilled? If not, WHY NOT? I didn't say the Sun would physically explode. I only said you would "see" the Sun explode, and so you have.

Thats what I mean,

It is still a completely literal viewpoint, but also not what you expected.

test,

[mark s]

Actually, you would not have seen the sun explode. You would have seen an artistic rendition of an exploding sun.

I think that the Bible prophesies things that will actually happen. Prophetic fulfillments as recorded in the Bible were things that actually happened.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Would my prophecy be considered fulfilled? If not, WHY NOT? I didn't say the Sun would physically explode. I only said you would "see" the Sun explode, and so you have.

The very essence of prophecy is the actual fulfillment; not the imagined, perceived, or science fiction version. The actual fulfillment is the manner by which we judge the true prophet from the false.

[Test4echo]

Actually, you would not have seen the sun explode. You would have seen an artistic rendition of an exploding sun.

I think that the Bible prophesies things that will actually happen. Prophetic fulfillments as recorded in the Bible were things that actually happened.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Ok Mark, I will give you that only because I choose poorly my example.

Let me use another example.

The constant bombardment of natural disasters repeated in Media that actually "have" occurred and are used to portray "future events" that haven't occurred yet. It would appear to us, to be "seeing" disasters everywhere.

So, in this case it would not be an artist rendering but live, real life footage of events.

test,

[Test4echo]

Would my prophecy be considered fulfilled? If not, WHY NOT? I didn't say the Sun would physically explode. I only said you would "see" the Sun explode, and so you have.

The very essence of prophecy is the actual fulfillment; not the imagined, perceived, or science fiction version. The actual fulfillment is the manner by which we judge the true prophet from the false.

You are assuming (in my example for instance) that I told you that the Actual Sun would physically explode and you would witness that event. If I had said that, you would be correct. I tried to "trick" you by using digital media.
However, I did not say that.
If you literally interpret what I said, "I" would be correct and my prophecy fulfilled.

Let me point out that the prophesies DO also speak about fiction and deception as being a part of the fulfillment.

Wars and Rumors of War is an example.

We ARE to expect real wars, but also fictitious ones. Ones that terrify, but haven't actually happened and never will.
The scriptures do not tell us which ones are going to be real and which ones aren't.

I believe the environmental disasters stated in scripture may also have many instances of "true" real life disasters but also ones that are depicted in Media as immanent, but will never occur.

The fact that we SEE these things in news clippings, either real footage or an artists rendering is moot.
We still See them.

I believe that it still satisfies a literal interpretation of scripture.

The consequences are immense. While we are here waiting for some of these events to transpire on earth, it may be that it is already transpiring digitally.
If this is even possible, then we are closer than we think.

test,

[mark s]

Actually, you would not have seen the sun explode. You would have seen an artistic rendition of an exploding sun.

I think that the Bible prophesies things that will actually happen. Prophetic fulfillments as recorded in the Bible were things that actually happened.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Ok Mark, I will give you that only because I choose poorly my example.

Let me use another example.

The constant bombardment of natural disasters repeated in Media that actually "have" occurred and are used to portray "future events" that haven't occurred yet. It would appear to us, to be "seeing" disasters everywhere.

So, in this case it would not be an artist rendering but live, real life footage of events.

test,

I'm sorry, but I'm having a difficult time understanding what you are saying here.

Do you think that the things such as the plagues in Revelation, the mark of the beast, the Great Tribulation, are actual future events which will happen?

Do you think that there will be an actual false prophet who will actually call down fire from heaven?

That there will be one or more world-wide earthquakes?

Or are you saying that people will be tricked into thinking these things are happening by slick media production, but that they won't actually have happened?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[lamb7]

Test,

This sounds like it could be a logical alternative to the Truth, but it sounds oh, so, "human"; based on human words, human technology and human logic. Maybe what you are saying is the lie, because it does slant towards the mass human mind so much more logically.

I respectively disagree with the idea.



In Christ,
lamb

[Rte66]

huh?

[Exit40]

Hi Test. I think I understand what you are trying to say. As the Lord reads our thoughts and holds the reins to our hearts, written in Scripture so long ago is this reading. The fear we are able to currently experience may not be about real worldly experience, but just fear. There may be only one event in real life to fulfill, but our fears make it seem there are many such events. I suppose what I am trying to say is, Scripture states beforehand what we will make up, or imagine, in our minds as relative to the real world. And, as we read of these events in Scripture we not only make them up in our minds, but in our fear we cause them to come about in real life. A self fulfilling Prophecy sort of, a single point of infinitesimal many, on a circle within a whirlpool, within a sphere, that in it's motion contains everything that is, and starts and ends in the exact same place. Maybe that is a partial explanation ?

I have played around with that one and although I thought I might be on the verge of some revelation I eventually came to the conclusion I am not able to think like God does. I also realize how puny am I.

And how Great is God.

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

Another thought.... It's like hearing the echo of something you never heard spoken, yet when you hear it you recognize the voice, and the truth of it.

Is there an icon for having gone off the deep end ?

God Bless You

David

[burien1]

huh?

I hear ya !

[Test4echo]

,

I'm sorry everyone.
Its so clear in my own mind what i have been trying to say, yet so difficult to get across.
Maybe that's a hint I may be wrong. Maybe not.

Here's the last stab at it.

I believe many Christians (not all but many) expected AGW ( Anthropogenic Global Warming) to be "the" vehicle the prophecies used to usher in so many of the natural disasters, plagues....etc..written about.

Especially now that were on the precipice of Global Government.
Everything we see in Politics, the Middle East, Terrorism, Israel, it would seem that AGW would be the "Natural Disaster engine" to coincide with these other events that are being fulfilled.

Real waves roaring because of AGW. Real Plaugues...etc...

However, I believe that AGW is completely false and always have. The science does not support AGW in any way.
Mankind is NOT causing any problems in regards to global warming. It is in my opinion a natural cycle that actually benefits the planet, not causes problems.

So, we now have many events in prophecy coming to pass regarding politics, terrorism, etc.. but the natural disaster aspect of it has in my opinion been eliminated. Global warming is NOT going to cause environmental disaster.

Maybe, just may maybe, because all of the other scriptures seem to to be coming to pass NOW, the natural disasters spoken about in scripture reflect mankind's fear of Global warming. We have been watching Roaring sea's, Hurricanes, you name it, all scaring the globe into into thinking disasters of biblical proportions are going to occur "soon" if we don't change and become more "global minded" but all on Television. Media.

Rumors..if you will.

We all have SEEN what could occur due to AGW. (On TV) and it has scared the planet to such a degree they have decided that global government is the answer.

Maybe what John, Daniel and Jesus spoke of, wasn't real disaster. Maybe it was a reflection of the FEAR at the time. A fear that would take hold of the planet and enable Lucifer to advance his cause.

After all, literally, we have all SEEN these natural disasters happen. ON TV.

Make any sense?

Let give you an example.

Lets say you are a prophecy expert. Someone comes to you for help. They want to know if ALL the prophecies are being fulfilled right now. Is this the time?

You tell them, "While many of the prophecies may be occurring, we still have not seen the Sun turn to black, we haven't seen earthquakes rise or sea's roaring. The fire form above has not yet occurred. You tell them everything is ok for now, because those natural disasters haven't happened yet.

Lets say you die right then and there and Jesus asks you, why did you tell that person mankind hasn't SEEN those Natural disasters come to pass?

You answer and say because the earth itself hasn't experienced them.

Jesus answers and says, "Is that what the prophecy says?"
You answer yes.

Jesus responds;
You have SEEN ALL these things come to pass. Haven't you been watching television?

test,

[Exit40]

Hi Test. I think it more likely that because of a perpetuated fear within we turn to ourselves, man, to fix something that isn't broken in reality, thus bringing about the disasters we think we will be avoiding. I kinda get what you are trying to say. We make it more than real by our fear of it, subjugating ourselves to it in the process ?

Here is a bit of Scripture I think you might like.

. Job 5:1 ¶ Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?
Job 5:2 For wrath killeth the foolish man, and envy slayeth the silly one.
Job 5:3 I have seen the foolish taking root: but suddenly I cursed his habitation.
Job 5:4 His children are far from safety, and they are crushed in the gate, neither [is there] any to deliver [them].
Job 5:5 Whose harvest the hungry eateth up, and taketh it even out of the thorns, and the robber swalloweth up their substance.
Job 5:6 Although affliction cometh not forth of the dust, neither doth trouble spring out of the ground;
Job 5:7 Yet man is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upward.
Job 5:8 I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:
Job 5:9 Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:
Job 5:10 Who giveth rain upon the earth, and sendeth waters upon the fields:
Job 5:11 To set up on high those that be low; that those which mourn may be exalted to safety.
Job 5:12 He disappointeth the devices of the crafty, so that their hands cannot perform [their] enterprise.
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
Job 5:14 They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night.
Job 5:15 But he saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth, and from the hand of the mighty.
Job 5:16 So the poor hath hope, and iniquity stoppeth her mouth.
Job 5:17 ¶ Behold, happy [is] the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Job 5:18 For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole.
Job 5:19 He shall deliver thee in six troubles: yea, in seven there shall no evil touch thee.
Job 5:20 In famine he shall redeem thee from death: and in war from the power of the sword.
Job 5:21 Thou shalt be hid from the scourge of the tongue: neither shalt thou be afraid of destruction when it cometh.
Job 5:22 At destruction and famine thou shalt laugh: neither shalt thou be afraid of the beasts of the earth.
Job 5:23 For thou shalt be in league with the stones of the field: and the beasts of the field shall be at peace with thee.
Job 5:24 And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle [shall be] in peace; and thou shalt visit thy habitation, and shalt not sin.
Job 5:25 Thou shalt know also that thy seed [shall be] great, and thine offspring as the grass of the earth.
Job 5:26 Thou shalt come to [thy] grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season.
Job 5:27 Lo this, we have searched it, so it [is]; hear it, and know thou [it] for thy good.

Affliction and disaster are real enough, so is the fear of them. Both are reported accurately within Scripture, can't get around that. Both will happen, the experience to some, the fear to others, doesn't seem likley we can get around that either. There is no one single answer, but as many as there are people, whom the Lord will be with as they are able to accept Him and His Grace.

God Bless You

David

[Test4echo]

The Natural disasters the bible spoke of, literally came true and are coming true because we See them, on television.
The roaring sea's, earthquakes, fire from above, blackened sun, nuclear holocaust, plagues, asteroids, great signs in the sky...we have already seen it and continue to. No, other generation has had our perspective.
Real or fiction is not the point.
Seeing is the point.

test

[lamb7]

The Natural disasters the bible spoke of, literally came true and are coming true because we See them, on television.
The roaring sea's, earthquakes, fire from above, blackened sun, nuclear holocaust, plagues, asteroids, great signs in the sky...we have already seen it and continue to. No, other generation has had our perspective.
Real or fiction is not the point.
Seeing is the point.

test

I get what you're saying too, Test. I believe they will be real, but in the mean time, satan uses the very words from the Bible and tries to create things that are prophesied to come, before their time, for the exact reasons mentioned in this thread...Fear.

If the unbelieving population can become so fearful...they will latch onto any "saviour" who comes along. In the end it is what you state, seeing it on tv is enough to make them believe the end is coming, and although it maybe soon...satan knows they are not prepared spiritually and so he deceives the many with his lies and starts brewing up whatever false messiahs he can.

Just a thought. Carry on.

In Christ,
lamb

[Rte66]

What triggered your train of thought Test? Was it a particular Scripture? the "rumors of wars" phrase? Have you been pondering this for awhile?

The Natural disasters the bible spoke of, literally came true and are coming true because we See them, on television.

I disagree with that statement. The natural disasters the bible spoke of literally came true and are coming true independent of what we see on tv. Jesus still fulfilled prophecy though the Jews chose not to believe their own eyes. I don't think God confuses or exaggerates prophecy with a proliferation of images seen on tv. That, in my opinion, doesn't agree with what I understand of His nature, His honesty, His authenticity. God deals in facts not rumors and fables..that's Satan's area of expertise. Yes, it is a reality that people are taken in by the images on tv, by rumors and false reports, but still, the ultimate truth is that prophecy's fulfillment will occur, regardless of who is watching and it will occur literally in real life just like Jesus rose literally to real life. What John saw will happen in real life, not just on tv or as a result of tv. I can't see God letting false images play a part in His plan. He's all about truth and reality. Prophecy was given to establish His Supremacy, to glorify Himself, to give comfort to us. Why share with us prophecy if it is so fickle a thing to be manipulated by our perceptions of falsehood or reality?

Does the tree still fall in the forest, even though no one Sees it?

JMHO..Hope it's understandable to you and that I caught your point accurately.

Blessings,
Rte66

[Test4echo]

I have an Idea.

The word, "see" is english. That may be the problem.

Does anyone know the exact Greek or Hebrew words used in those prophecies that translated to "See" Saw" "Witnesses" "Come to pass"?

That would probably clear all this up.

test,