A serious discussion: Ancestor spirits.

[mouserpg]

I need to bring this up. People here heavily believe that when they die, their dead relatives come to get them and take them "home." This is a native-american place, and they feel that our "ancestors" watch over us. I do not feel this is biblical, and the area I'm in is pre-dominantly catholic; they tolerate these things. Then again, catholicism isn't exactly a beacon of sound doctrines - far from it, in fact.

This is probably why it's hard to witness to these people; they have personally seen and talked with "spirit guides", and if you were to tell them it's fake, they would laugh at you. When my mother's friend's father died, his last words were "<Grandmother> and <Brother> have come for me." (my grandmother and uncle)

I have edited out my grandmother and uncle's names, for obvious reasons. But these were his last words before he died. I do not believe them for a second. I think this is part of a powerful superstitious delusion, in which people actually see these things, but they are not seeing what they think they are.

This is a recurring theme. Most people have had dead relatives appear to them and tell them everything will be okay during crises, and they are. But one must wonder... why are our dead relatives appearing to us? This is not biblical.

My grandfather was talking about the "virgin mary" appearing to him on his death bed, in addition to Jesus, and that he was being bothered by "people hiding in the corners" which he kept shining a flash light at them to force them to "go away."

Now, I do wonder if these people are having hallucinations, and that would honestly tickle my ears... but I think it's a lot worse than that; I wonder if they are being deceived by demons, because a lot of this doesn't line up with the Bible. And it always seems to achieve it's intended goal: reinforce superstition and false beliefs, and probably delude more people into the fires of hell.

Thoughts? Scriptures? Please.

[Swayde]

It is my belief that these spirit guides and familiar spirits are demons impersonating the dead. They are seducing spirits that we need to watch out for and they lie and deceive.

[mouserpg]

It is my belief that these spirit guides and familiar spirits are demons impersonating the dead. They are seducing spirits that we need to watch out for and they lie and deceive.

This is exactly my thought. Most of them anyway.

Allow me to clarify: If someone says Jesus appeared to them before they died, I am not going to discount this, nor am I going to say anything at all. If someone says their dead relatives or the "virgin mary" appeared to them, I am going to say something about that. If someone says an angel of the Lord appeared to them before they died, I am not going to say anything against this either, unless the message isn't Biblical. I'm going to wait and see on the Day of Judgment.

[GodsStudent]

I had an uncle who was nearing his death from cancer, and he had been unconcious for at least 24 hours when he all of a sudden sat up and called "momma" and reached his arm out. Shortly after that, he died.

What's odd is that he didn't see my grandfather, too, who had died years back of a sudden heart attack.

There is noone in my family who doubts my grandmother will be front and center at the rapture, but that's the whole point here. I am not familar with any scriptures that put a person in anything other than "dead in Christ" who shall rise first at the rapture. Is there anything in scripture that tells us that those who have died before us exist in a spirit form, and not a physical form? I am not familar with this if there is.

[mouserpg]

The man who died said my grandmother (a devout catholic, though maybe she realized the truth before she died) and my uncle (a wild party-goer who died in a drunk driving accident) had come to get him. Doesn't seem likely that my uncle went to Heaven, he was killed instantly.

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi mouserpg,

I was just browsing this site yesterday and when I read your post, I thought you might be interested since this gentleman is a native American as well. He may have some answers regarding your question about ancestor spirits since he is now born again.

Chief Silverheels is a Seneca/Mohawk
Iroquois Native American. He comes from a long
line of famous Native Americans.

http://www.chiefsilverheels.org/index.html

[Keeping Alert]

It seems that this kind of experiences are not peculiar to the native americans.

The Chinese believe that their dead relatives will visit the house they stayed within a period of time (I don't know how long is that) and they even go to the effort of scattering rice or powder on the floor and hope to see footprints or other signs of them returning.

I have also heard of people seeing or hearing their relatives after their deaths.

Well, to me, a lot of it is self-imagination IMHO. They miss them so much that whatever shadow or sound would be made out in their minds to be that of their relative's. An ant or an insect probably crawled over the powder on the floor. Also dust and powders tend to aggregate together after a while and that can be perceived as footprints or tracks in them. Those on their death bed often see a lot of things but we know that when a person is dehydrated or there is an electrolyte imbalance in their system or when they are having insufficient oxygen to the brain, all sorts of hallucinations occur.

Yes, it could be demons but my guess is that most of the times, it is our own mind playing tricks. (I tend not to want to give the devil too much credit )

[LandscapeMan]

Steve Hadley at Harvest Fellowsahip addresses this very thing in his Sunday sermon. He referenced the story of Lazerus. As he explains and I have always learned, is that upon death, the spititual portion of who we are go to Sheol. Shoel is divided by a large rift, on one side are those who died in Christ, on the other those who died without Christ. No one can cross over, such as Lazerus, and no one can return to this earth.

He went on to say that when these people see or experience spiritual intities they are most likely demons. Demon that have taken on that dead persons identity to decieve those living amoungst us.

Only when the rapture occurs will those who died in christ leave and then only to be reunited with their physical body.

Not until the millineal rein will the resurected and those living on earth be on earth together and walk with each other.

Those not in christ will not be reunited with their body until the day of judgement.

It is important to remember that any religious system that is not centered on Jesus Christ is of Satan. This was established at Babel when God confused the languages and dispursed people all over the earth. Every religious system other than Christianity has its root in Babalon.

I know this story is going to sound a little cold. After my Dad died my mother became convinced that he was hanging around in the house and watching over her. I will admit that her thoughts were aided by the fact she began to read Silvia Brown and watch Jonathan Edwards. Very few people know how much misery my mother inflicted on my dad in his last years. One day I had heard her talk about this about as much as I could. I asked her why, if she was so difficult and non caring towards him in life why she thought he would hang around after death and watch over her? I then told her she was most likely creating his presence to sooth her own guilty concious. I then expressed that based on her behavior that when he passed his soul left skid marks leaving thid world. She was not any to pleased by me bringing up facts. In retrospect I feel that what she sensed was a presence, to lead her into deception based on what she read and wanted to believe.

[revelation2012]

But also when Peter and John whitenessed the Trasnfiguration of Jesus Christ they saw Elijah and Moses. Elijah had not tasted death but most certainly Moses died on the other side of the Jordan.I would not call that demonic at all.

And before someone freaks out . . . I do not confer with familiar spirits nor contact the dead. I am simply thorowing this out as a Biblical reference of someone appearing after they had died. I just think there is more we do not understand than we do. No matter how studied we are in the scriptures.

[revelation2012]

Bump- anyone want to comment on Moses showing up?

[Abiding in His Word]

Bump- anyone want to comment on Moses showing up?

Well, God clearly opposes necromancy, astrology, witchcraft, mediums, etc.

"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD....Deu 18:10-12

I believe the reason is clear as well.

When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? Isaiah 8:19

These types of activities lead one away from God and toward other 'gods." God warned his people about marrying pagans as well for the very same reason. And we know from scripture that very thing happened.

When signs of a "visible" known person becomes more of a reality and/or comfort than God, the need for God and faith in Him naturally diminishes. God calls Himself a consuming fire who is jealous of our love, faith, and communion with Him.

As to the "Moses" question, no one called him, inquired of him, sought direction, etc. He did not speak at all. Nor do we find the disciples leading anyone else to believe they should disregard God's commands regarding the dead.

[revelation2012]

I understand he did not speak, according to the eye whiteness testimony, but I can discern from your answer there is no explanation to his appearance since he had clearly died. Like I said there is some things we just cannot clarify even thought we always want to button down everything with a scriptural answer. And I suppose many who claim they have been visited by some person who passed before them may not have called them out either.

Bump- anyone want to comment on Moses showing up?

Well, God clearly opposes necromancy, astrology, witchcraft, mediums, etc.

"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD....Deu 18:10-12

I believe the reason is clear as well.

When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? Isaiah 8:19

These types of activities lead one away from God and toward other 'gods." God warned his people about marrying pagans as well for the very same reason. And we know from scripture that very thing happened.

When signs of a "visible" known person becomes more of a reality and/or comfort than God, the need for God and faith in Him naturally diminishes. God calls Himself a consuming fire who is jealous of our love, faith, and communion with Him.

As to the "Moses" question, no one called him, inquired of him, sought direction, etc. He did not speak at all. Nor do we find the disciples leading anyone else to believe they should disregard God's commands regarding the dead.