Coming out of the Post-Trib Closet

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Coming out of the Post-Trib Closet

Postby ChrisJ on Tue May 30, 2006 2:28 pm

Hello Everybody!

Well, here it comes! My wife and I are coming out of the closet this month, and letting everyone know that we have left the illogical, unscriptural Pre-Trib Rapture position.

We are missionaries with a very conservative mission board. Our church is very conservative, "old time religion" Baptist. We will probably lose everything. Our mission board won't have us because we don't agree with their statement of faith anymore. My own Pastor will drop our monthly support and will definately "bench us for life" from ever preaching or teaching Sunday School. All of our other supporting churches will more than likely drop us like 'heretics.' AND my in-laws (a church planter/evangelist) will probably disown us!

Anybody know a good Post-Trib mission board? LOL I am actually quite excited about the whole thing. But I do not relish having to find another church, etc. And the way that Baptists do things, any church that I try to join in the future will want to know why I left, etc. I will be black-balled from the conservative Baptist realm that I have enjoyed for the past ten years.

Anybody else gone through this before?

I love it when Jesus gives us an opportunity to take a stand for Him, but this is ridiculous! LOL

ChrisJ
:typing:

p.s. Oh, and since I'll lose my monthly missionary support, I'll probably have to get a real job again! oy!
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Postby OBXBob on Tue May 30, 2006 4:09 pm

Hi ChrisJ,

I'm so happy for you! :hugs: I left pre-trib a few weeks ago, as well. The first day was a rough one, realizing what I'd been fed for so many years was not scriptural, but then I was relieved to know the truth!

Don't worry about what to do next; the Lord will guide you!

Blessings,

Bob
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Postby bchandler on Tue May 30, 2006 4:37 pm

ChrisJ,

I personally wouldn't "burn your bridges" so to speak. The gospel is more than escatology, and you can continue to do good work without coming out in direct opposition to the church.

Most american churches are pre-trib... If I were you.. I would simply teach people the truth, and let them come to their own conclusions.

Escatology isn't a salvation issue... so don't make it a big deal with your church. Just be ready to show people the truth if/when the pre-trib scenario fails.

When it comes to teaching a rapture position, I would simply tell people... here's what the church teaches... and here's what some other people believe, and here are some guidelines for determining how different interpretations should be weighted.

That way you don't have to be at odds with your church... and you can still hold your beliefs, and even educate others if you handle it with great care.

If this were an issue of heresy, or salvation doctrine, I would agree 100% with your decision to "come out" with your position.

As it is, I would urge caution. and to "be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves".

I go to an Assemblies of God church, which is pre-trib, and the pastor knows my views... but I do not make an issue of them among the body. I share with people who are willing to listen, and I try to do it privately... but I don't push it on people.

I think you can have an honest disagreement with your church about something that is not a salvation issue. I even think you could get away with teaching the other viewpoints, ever so carefully, as a fail-safe. To encourage people that IF we don't experience a pre-trib rapture, we shouldn't lose faith or be disheartened.

I would encourage you to share your studies with others in such a way as to not threaten their belief, but rather as a means of discerning their openness to learning. Maybe even as a "here are some things I have been seeing in scripture, and they cause me to question the pre-trib rapture.. what do you think about this" kind of approach.

If you present it this way you don't threaten them, you expose them to truth, and you have a chance to learn how open they are to what you have to share.

My own father was mid-trib/pre-wrath for many years, and I never knew it. I called him at 2am... so excited about discovering the pre-trib rapture wasn't true. He said, "Son, I've believed that since before you were born". I asked, "Why didn't you ever tell me, or teach me this?". He said, "It wasn't a salvation issue, and I didn't want to create division in the body. I figured if God wanted you to know these things he would show you when it was time."

Personally, God may have revealed this truth to you... so that you can be an encouragement and life-preserver to your flock when the things of revelation begin to occur in an undenyable way.

If I were you... I would simply be sure my flock knew and understood that there may come a time when we will all have to suffer and/or die for our faith. I would teach them about the persecution that occurs all over the world, so they don't get the idea that they are somehow exempt.
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Postby perigrini on Tue May 30, 2006 6:42 pm

bchandler wrote:Escatology isn't a salvation issue...

Apparently that isn't true. The pretrib view has become a salvation issue for all the people that pretrib mission boards and pretrib churches cause to end up in Hell because Those organizations withdraw support from missionaries.

But hey, there are plenty of harvesters in the field, right?


God will bless you and your family Chris.


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Postby Blessedayers on Wed May 31, 2006 5:53 am

Hello Chris....how are things going with you?

Our mission board won't have us because we don't agree with their statement of faith anymore. My own Pastor will drop our monthly support and will definately "bench us for life" from ever preaching or teaching Sunday School. All of our other supporting churches will more than likely drop us like 'heretics.' AND my in-laws (a church planter/evangelist) will probably disown us!



Understand that you arent alone in this....many have had to make the same decision you have....and have suffered the same consequences you listed above....over something that the church....thru the other side of their mouth says...isnt a salvation issue.

If it isnt....then why all the fuss?
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Postby bchandler on Wed May 31, 2006 9:49 am

I agree Peri, removing support from a missionary team over eschatology would, IMO, be a greivous sin. It would condemn people to hell so in that sense they make it a salvation issue, when it shouldn't be.

This is why I cautioned Chris: If you are where you believe God wants you... keep this teaching and knowledge in your heart, and share it with those God leads you to share it with.

In the meanwhile, you can look for a mission board that won't financially gut you for your eschatology, and will appreciate your work and faith.

Does anyone here know of a biblically sound church or a mission board that won't make eschatology an issue of support or withdrawal of support?

Every church I have ever been in in the US taught pre-trib.
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Wed May 31, 2006 12:10 pm

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

That website has a directory of Post-Trib churches...I don't know how much that will help.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
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Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
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Postby bchandler on Wed May 31, 2006 12:22 pm

Wow, looking at the list it appears there are some baptist churches that teach post-trib/pre-wrath rapture.

Doen't say what conference body they belong to, but it seems Chris should be able to find ministry support within his current denomination.

Of course Chris... The next thing you need to study is the unbiblical concept of the gifts of the spirit "dying out". :wink:

Being a charismatic I thought that was funny... and no offense is meant...

If you have read many of my posts you have probably come across some that deal with the disempowerment of the body of Christ by our lack of teaching and faith in the working of God upon our faith and obedience to the acts of salvation and regenration.... but I don't want to bring that into this thread.

I honor you and your willingness to re-examine the things you have been taught in light of God's word, and to change accordingly as the Lord grants you understanding.

You certainly have some tough choices my friend.... Pray, especially for wisdom in how He wants you to handle this.
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Postby ChrisJ on Wed May 31, 2006 12:27 pm

Hi Guys,

Thank you for the encouraging words :) I plan on talking with my Pastor in another week or so.

The thing about the Post-Trib viewpoint is that "what you believe about one thing effects what you believe about everything." It's just one domino falling but it causes a lot of other ones to fall.

For example, the Church Age doesn't exist anymore. Why? Because the Church Age (not a biblical term) is a timeframe that begins at Pentecost and ends at the beginning of the Trib. Once the Trib starts, one leaves the Church Age and enters the time of Jacob's Trouble (God goes back to dealing with the Jews, etc.). But this is just fiction. There is only one people of God throughout all ages. As Jesus said, One flock. (We Gentiles/Church are grafted into the same Vine that Abraham is a member of! cf. Romans and Ephesians)

And that is just for starters! LOL If you do away with the end parenthesis of the Church Age (that imaginary division between Church Age and Tribulation), then why not do away with the end parenthesis at the beginning of the Church Age? This was a tremendously freeing truth for me! I saw that the Hyperdispensationalist was wrong to separate the Gospels from the Epistles. Jesus said that "this gospel" (the one of the Gospels) must be preached in all the world before the end came! So, the Gospel of Jesus, Peter and Paul are all the same! What continuity! What simplicity! The Bible is a brand new Book to me!

For someone who used to be a Ruckmanite (and whose Pastor still is), this is an amazing revelation!

Shucks! I am even an undeclared non-cessationist (the gifts did not cease) simply because now I can't see any reason why they should have! Jesus sent out the 12 to preach the kingdom, cast out devils, and heal the sick. Then he sent out the 70 to do the same thing. Then he gave the Commission in Mark 16, which says the same thing. Oops! that would seem to apply to me...and that makes me a believer in miracles! LOL (In my pre-Baptist days, many years ago, I saw the Lord stop the rain at my request, heal people, etc...so this wasn't too big of a leap for me to make again.)

Do you see the problem? :D

My church teaches that Trib-saints (another unbiblical term) are saved by works plus faith (Ruckmanism...oh! what would Paul say!?) And the Post-Trib viewpoint takes GRACE ALONE right up to the Second Coming! That is a salvation issue! Trib-saints are saints by believing in Jesus!

Plus, my wife's family tend to believe the Baptist Brider stuff. They believe that ONLY local Baptist church members are the bride! When she got saved a few years ago, they encouraged her to get baptised ASAP so she would be a member of the Bride. Well, the Post-Trib view leads to oneness of God's people throughout all ages, which in turn leads to a universal body/church which meets in local assemblies. Christ birthed an organism not an institution!

Oh, yes. I want to be Pre-Trib again. I want to blend in with my conservative Baptist buddies, but I know too much.

As for being "wise as serpents," I've tried that. We have found that it just feels too hypocritical to not proclaim truth, to sit in silent agreement with the Pre-Trib preaching, etc. I guess I am too much of a preacher LOL

And, how in the world can I not preach on the Day of the LORD now? Jesus spoke more of hell than he did of heaven, but the Day of the Lord is mentioned many, many more times than hell! So why aren't the preachers preaching on it? Cuz they don't understand it! (They have eyes but see not, etc.)

I am so glad that some of you guys understand. At least there's the forum! :D

Til Jesus comes,
ChrisJ :typing:
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Postby bchandler on Wed May 31, 2006 1:03 pm

Well... Hallelujia Chris! I am so happy for you... it seems the Lord is really doing a lot more in your life than your original post let on.

I would again encourage you to follow the Lord's leading.. seek wisdom, and seek those who will support you.

I don't know if i would build new bridges before burning the old ones or not... and I hope your wife is 100% with you in what the Lord is showing you. It would be near impossible if she isn't.

I can certainly see and agree with your assertions:

My church teaches that Trib-saints (another unbiblical term) are saved by works plus faith (Ruckmanism...oh! what would Paul say!?) And the Post-Trib viewpoint takes GRACE ALONE right up to the Second Coming! That is a salvation issue! Trib-saints are saints by believing in Jesus!


I just feel led to pray for you right now:

Jesus, you are so awesome and so good to us. You reveal yourself to us continuously, line upon line, precept upon precept. I honor and glorify you for giving the gifts and wisdom and understanding and revelation of yourself to this young man and his wife.

Only you know what your plans for using this couple are, and only you know the best and most righteous way for him to deal with the spiritual conflict he now finds himself in. I pray Lord Jesus, that you grant him wisdom, and peace. That his break with his church, if it comes, will not be one that causes animosity or pain. Also Lord, I ask that you grant him mercy in that his in-laws will be opened to receiving truth and not be condemning of this couple as they reveal what your spirit is teaching them.

Amen.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed May 31, 2006 2:59 pm

amen and amen
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Postby perigrini on Wed May 31, 2006 6:59 pm

Amen.
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Wed May 31, 2006 8:12 pm

Amen
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
-Thomas Jefferson

Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
-Thomas Jefferson

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Postby soonverysoon on Wed May 31, 2006 9:24 pm

Amen.

God will show you his will.

Don't worry about your church God will open the doors he wants you to go through.


Love in Christ

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Postby Blessedayers on Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:41 am

Amen :P

Don't worry about your church God will open the doors he wants you to go through.


Amen again....so often we get impatient...and open doors we arent meant to go thru thinking it is the Lord will for us....and have to learn the hard way that it wasnt.

Continue trusting in the Lord Chris
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Postby ChrisJ on Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:14 am

AMEN! Thanks bchandler!


ChrisJ :typing:
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Postby Sozoed on Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:10 pm

Wow, Brother Chris,
What an amazing testimony! I agree with BChandler's prayer, and all the words of encouragement you have received here.

A wonderful friend who is the ministry with her husband just told me she is pre-wrath recently. I read several scriptures to her--solidifying the pre-wrath standpoint, and she agreed. This scriptural stand clears up all the unbelievable (literally) gymnastics a teacher must do to make the pre-trib theory work. Pre-wrath really does simplify the Bible!

And once a believer who is coming from pre-trib gets over the shock of the idea s/he might actually die for their faith, the sensation is wonderfully freeing!!! (I'm not being glib here...I know how difficult it is, and I'm praying through it myself, especially where my children are concerned.)

The end times prophecies once again become clear, chronological and believable.
May you and your wife feel and know Jesus' deep love for you both, and be led by His Spirit.
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Postby Calvin and Hobbs on Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:00 am

good for you all for no accepting the mark of the apostate church..
the only bad thing you cant sell or trade religion...
last week I went to bible book store and they had these liscense frames that said "In case this car is unmaned-you can have it.Rapture"

I looked for one that said "In case this car is unmanned Waive to Christ on the cloud....I would of asked but I didnt want her to look at me like Im the son of perditon..LOL
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Postby watch2000 on Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:07 am

Sozoed wrote:Wow, Brother Chris,
What an amazing testimony! I agree with BChandler's prayer, and all the words of encouragement you have received here.

A wonderful friend who is the ministry with her husband just told me she is pre-wrath recently. I read several scriptures to her--solidifying the pre-wrath standpoint, and she agreed. This scriptural stand clears up all the unbelievable (literally) gymnastics a teacher must do to make the pre-trib theory work. Pre-wrath really does simplify the Bible!

And once a believer who is coming from pre-trib gets over the shock of the idea s/he might actually die for their faith, the sensation is wonderfully freeing!!! (I'm not being glib here...I know how difficult it is, and I'm praying through it myself, especially where my children are concerned.)

The end times prophecies once again become clear, chronological and believable.
May you and your wife feel and know Jesus' deep love for you both, and be led by His Spirit.


I agree, i think what keeps alot of people pre-trib is the fear of dieing. But honestly thats the worst that can happen in trib?death. Yet christians have been killed for 2,000 years.
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Postby Sozoed on Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:00 pm

[quote="watch2000
I agree, i think what keeps alot of people pre-trib is the fear of dieing. But honestly thats the worst that can happen in trib?death. Yet christians have been killed for 2,000 years.[/quote]
Exactly...I regret to say this, but it is mostly the 'pampered' American church that is fearful of dying, as other countries routinely face death for their Christian beliefs. That is one of the reasons that 'pre-trib' is so popular here...it feeds into the churches reluctance to actually be persecuted.
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Postby ChrisJ on Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:26 am

Well,

I have been nicely asked to leave my church, and my wife's family is very, very upset (as in, "the door is shutting").

I will be notifying our mission board this week; time table was a little bit off, so I didn't let the cat out of the bag until Saturday.

I have been called a heretic, teaching doctrine of devils, etc.

LOL Ain't it all grand?

I am actually enjoying the whole thing. My wife says I am a Vulcan. Not really, but I do get a kick out of watching folks 'carry on.'
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Postby OBXBob on Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:12 am

Chris,

This is so sad... :cry: all because you said that you no longer believe in pre-trib?

I reread your first post, and you predicted this would happen, though...

Blessings,

Bob
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Coming Out of the Closet

Postby wkc on Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:03 pm

Chris,

Praying for you and your wife. It must be painful for you and your wife as I'm sure there are people that you love that you will not be able to fellowship with. It is so sad to hear that you have been asked to leave the local congregation.

We have been asking God to open the eyes of the church leaders to His truth. I'm firmly convinced that when troubles start in earnest that the Lord will reveal the truth to the pre-trib folks. I pray that we will be there for them, to strengthen, encourage, teach and exhort, because I believe those days will be terrible and that there will be a lot of suffering.

Many of these people have the sweetest spirits, some of the leaders don't but the Lord will deal with them and I believe they will repent.

We keep praying that the body will be one, as Jesus and the Father are one.

I also want you to know how much I enjoy your posts; they are always encouraging to me as the Holy Spirit witnesses through your writing.

Praise the Lord.

:hugs:
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:22 pm

I pray that we will be there for them, to strengthen, encourage, teach and exhort,


:a3:
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Postby ChurchGirl on Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:39 pm

As a new believer (going on 4 years) I am FLOORED that this has actually happened to you Chris.

My grandfather was a Southern Baptist pastor and then just a regular Baptist (I think) before he went to Heaven March 2004 (I'm confused by all the sects).

What I found interesting is that my grandmother tells me her church believes in pre-trib. But, my grandfather left me all his study books and bibles upon his death right after I was saved and in them I found all his notes on his own research into the truth.

He didn't have one book by any pre-trib writer. It seemed his lifelong search was into prophecy and when the rapture would take place. All his notes and highlights indicated he would have loved FP and the honest approach to seeking the truth.

Before he died I believe he had found the answers he was seeking and it all led to him believing his granddaughter would go through the tribulation.
A life-long believer - He had been a Pastor for over 40 years and he died at 87 years old. He had been researching the trib view for more than half his life!

I hope that you will find peace that God truly had this in His plan for you. You will continue to be in my prayers.
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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:47 pm

God bless you Chris for standing up for what the Lord has led you to do. Count is all as gain, for you are suffering a type of persecution for the sake of the truth of our Lord Jesus. Pray for those who are blinded so they will know to watch as we do.

Churchgirl...I am touched by your story. Your grandfather was a watcher, now he has a front row seat :wink: .

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Postby ChurchGirl on Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:04 pm

:cry: It just breaks my heart that the body can be so divided over this. So filled with hate...and then I think of my "Grand" and wish I would've listened to him when he would tell me about Jesus so long ago.

Someone will be just as proud of you Chris as I am of my Grandfather - even if the only one is Jesus! (ain't that all that matters?)

Talk about BOLD moves for Christ!
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Postby ChrisJ on Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:52 am

Churchgirl, Elihu, etc.,

Stop it, or you're gonna make me cry! :grin:

I just received another phone call today from a Pastor at a church that we were scheduled to present our missionary work at. He just said, 'I won't be able to host you on such-an-such date.' That's it. No explanation, no "Let's look at the Scriptures together, Brother," etc. Sigh.

I think that amazes me the most. The lack of Berean-ism in our churches. The ones who are standing with us don't care about doctrine to begin with and just accept everybody. Where's the balance? Where's the love of truth and the love of people? (OH, wait, that's where you guys come in!)

Thank you all for your prayers and kind words.

We have already found a church, and are making friends. And I have even been asked to substitute as the adult Sunday School teacher (if I avoid the Post-trib thing). So God knows, and he takes care of us!

Side note: Gotta tell you all about this. We are poorer than proverbial church mice. Missionaries don't usually live on alot of money. (We have normally lived off of $1000/month, but only received $670 this month.) When I started making phone calls today, our gas was going to be turned off this week, our car insurance cancelled on Monday, and our car repossessed next Saturday. (We have never worried though, God is able!) I started making some phone calls, and, now, the gas is okay until next month, the car won't be in trouble for another six weeks, and I have a job interview on Monday! (Car insurance will be fine too, I am sure!)

God is able. When we have NO strength, it is then, and only then, that we can mount up on wings as eagles. Trusting in God, the Omnipotent and the Loving God, will never bring us shame. He has done it again!

ChrisJ
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Postby Salty Skipper on Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:29 am

Trusting in God, the Omnipotent and the Loving God, will never bring us shame. He has done it again!


Praise God, ChrisJ! :a3:


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Postby ChurchGirl on Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:32 am

God is able. When we have NO strength, it is then, and only then, that we can mount up on wings as eagles. Trusting in God, the Omnipotent and the Loving God, will never bring us shame. He has done it again!
--------------------------------------
:a3:

As I was reading your post Chris, it came to mind that Jesus separates the goat from the sheep, the wheat from the chaff...it was such a beautiful visual...to envision the beauty that will come from this pruning in your life.

God is Good!!
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Postby wkc on Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:28 pm

Chris,

Brother, you and your wife will be in our family's prayers nightly. Our heavenly Father knows what you have need of and He will provide and as Paul said .."He that has begun a good work in you, will complete it in Christ Jesus our Lord," for the glory of God the Father.

Thank you for your courage in the Lord.
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Postby Be still on Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:33 pm

When one door closes, another opens ... don't look at the closed door so long that you don't see the one that has opened.
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Postby ChrisJ on Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:26 pm

Hello again,

Well, God took care of the car insurance issue as well, and as usual, he didn't leave any time to spare! It was due to be cancelled today, and it was paid today LOL :a2:

Oh, and (PTL!) I have secured secular employment! It's temporary, mind you (because it's with a telemarketing company, yech!), but still it's wonderful to be gainfully employed!

Thank you again for all your encouragment! You guys are awesome! If you wouldn't mind, please pray for Becky's parents. They are really, really taking this hard. He used to be a pastor, etc. They think that I am leading their daughter into doctrines of devils, etc. I sent them a letter today, brief and friendly, and enclosed a small post-trib 'tract' that I put together on 2 Thess. 1 and 2. I pray that it helps and not hurts the current situation.

ChrisJ
:typing:

p.s. I am also looking forward to the fruit that comes after THIS pruning, it should be really sweet!
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Postby apfuchs on Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:20 pm

I'm shocked you were kicked out of church purely because you hold to a different Rapture view. What happened to us all being on the same team?
Waiting for His coming,

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Postby Salty Skipper on Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:25 pm

I'm sorry, Apfuchs, but I think we're in for a lot more of this sort of thing...and not just over rapture timing, but a lot more issues as well. I hope I'm wrong...but the evidence is pointing in a different direction.

By the way... :wavewelcome: to you!

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Postby MChat on Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:43 pm

Sorry to hear of what happened. But Praise God that He is taking care of you.

I'm currently in a "Fundamental" Baptist Church and have brought up my Post-Trib views, but the Pastor is unwilling to listen. I continue to pray that the Lord will open his eyes.

I hear some scary things from other members of the Church at times because of their pre-trib view. Such as "We don't have to worry about having microchips implanted, because it won't be 'the mark' because we'll be gone when that happens."

What is/was your mission field?
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Postby 7eternity on Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:24 am

ChrisJ,

I think it’s completely wrong what your church did to you and your family. It's sad. You should have reminded them of the command “love one another” when they said that to you.

I hear some scary things from other members of the Church at times because of their pre-trib view. Such as "We don't have to worry about having microchips implanted, because it won't be 'the mark' because we'll be gone when that happens."

MChat,

If those people exactly said “It won’t be the mark” then I can see how pre-trib viewers are being led astray. I mean, I did not think it was such a big deal to be a pre, mid or post until now?

If I say I'm a pre, mid, post, pre-wrath or post-wrath or whatever else is out there, what does it matter? Our focus is the same: Jesus Christ. Besides, He said to the Jews in John 5:39 “You diligently study the Scriptures that testify about me because you think that by them you possess eternal life” This in my opinion means that no matter how much we know about the Scriptures, it doesn’t mean we’re actually any closer to God if not the opposite.

I'm sad to see, and now to know that some have fallen and will fall away just because of this issue (I'm referring to what happened to ChrisJ). The fact that the church asked ChrisJ to leave is that they failed to love him and his family. 1 John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."

It’s good to see many posts and opinions expressed in this site how much they’ve given in figuring out when the Rapture happens. They lay out arguments, graphics, and impressive stuff like that, giving a strong sense of being right in their reasoning. Thing is, this could be very well the reason why ChrisJ’s church shut their doors to the non-pretribs. They can't accept any non-pre believers because they think they know. Hence, dividing the body of Christ. This reflects the words our Lord speaks about in Matthew 12:25-30 in regards to division.

There shouldn’t be division in the body of Christ just because of that dilemma. We need to remember that we are all the same Children to the Lord regardless of that argument/debate. Let’s not set us apart or think we are different from each other just because of this.. or the Devil wins.
"Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, alway perseveres. Love never fails."
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Postby OBXBob on Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:44 am

:a3: 7eternity!

Blessings,

Bob
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Postby MChat on Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:50 am

7eternity wrote:MChat,

If those people exactly said “It won’t be the mark” then I can see how pre-trib viewers are being led astray. I mean, I did not think it was such a big deal to be a pre, mid or post until now?


What I'm wondering is, if the commonly held doctrine of the Pre-Trib Rapture is not Biblically sound then what other doctrines might not be Biblically sound?

My intent is to study each doctrine, cross examining it with the Word of God to test that it is true. I'm going to keep an open mind about this (well, at least more open that I was w/ the timing of the Rapture, anyhow). And I think two doctrines (which are or seem to be in contradiction with one-another) is where I'll start, that being Calvinism vs. Arminianism.

If it turns out that Aminianism is true (or more true) then it could very well be that the timing of the Rapture is a Salvation issue, at least for those entering the Tribulation... :( I fear for the souls of my Brothers and Sisters.
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One of the false emphises is......The Church saves you....

Postby Mrs. B on Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:04 am

One of the most popular false teachings today......

Is the Church doctrine saves you....

They may not say that out right......but once you accept Jesus...then the emplhises is church membership....church attendance....church programs...Even the church name............

The Catholic Church teaches.....the Church Saves you.....so do most of the protestent churches......


IT IS JESUS WHO SAVES YOU...........NOTHING ELSE......




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Postby 7eternity on Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:41 pm

Very well said Mrs B. I guess here’s our apostasy before the end comes.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first" 2 Thessalonians 2:3

It feels like everything is incredibly falling into place for the end to come lately. Some of us might get a reaction like “Duh!?” to this remark, but if you knew me, that’s just my 1% skepticism.

Mchat,

If I were you, I would stay away from any men’s theology. That’s philosophy. Philosophy is teachings from men's view. The Bible is one teaching, Calvinism is another, and Arminianism is another. Is the Rapture truly a salvation issue? No, but men want to make it one. If Jesus is the center of your universe, whether you’re a pre, mid or post, no one will be left behind.
"Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, alway perseveres. Love never fails."
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Postby MChat on Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:38 pm

Ah, but many of our Churchs' doctrines are based on these philosophies. For instance most Baptists Churches are Calvanistic in nature.

Trust me my goal isnt' to confirm or condem either of these, but rather to search out what the Bible says is true. And to do so with an open mind uninfluenced by what I've been taught growing up in a Baptist Church. Afterall if we can be wrong on the timing of the rapture, then would it not stand to reason that other doctrines which Churches follow could be wrong as well?

Considering the varying beliefs among the different denominations, I'm convinced there isn't one Church out there that is right in all of their doctrines.

Perhaps this is the deceptions Jesus talks about in Matthew 24. Consider Young's Litteral translation:

Matthew 24:4-5
And Jesus answering said to them, `Take heed that no one may lead you astray, for many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray.

Notice here there are no quotes around "I am the Christ." Some versions put quotes here, others do not. IMO, the addition of quotes can significantly change the meaning of the text.

Is Christ warning us of men who will claim to be Jesus (e.g. David Koresh). Or is he warning us of men who will come in his name, proclaiming that Jesus is the Christ, but yet will lead many astray. (There seems to be ALOT of that going on now).

I have a burden to study the Bible to rediscover the true doctrines of the Church. To find out for myself and the Bretheren just what the truth is. I may ask for assistance in this in the future. As each doctrine should be able to withstand scriptural cross-examination to determine if it is true.
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Saying I am the Christ.......

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:03 am

Many will come in my name.....saying I am the Christ....and deceive many........


Matt 24:3b......Tell us.....when shall these things be....?

and what shall be the sign of Thy coming........and of the End of the world?



Notice.......The End of the World......

4.......And Jesus answered and said unto them.......

TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECEIVE YOU.......




5.......FOR MANY SHALL COME IN MY NAME........

saying......I AM THE CHRIST; and shall deceive many........



They are saying Jesus.......is the Christ........but they do not teach the doctrine of Jesus......they teach their own doctrine.....This is the deception......

They teach another Jesus.........This is antichrist.......

They have another spirit........Not the Holy Spirit....The Spirit of

Truth....that is why many are deceived.....


The Church does not save you......JESUS THE CHRIST SAVES YOU......


That is why......on the last day......many will come to Jesus and say...didn't we do all these things in your name.....AND HE WILL SAY.....I NEVER KNEW YOU.......DEPART FROM ME...... YE WORKERS OF INIQUITY........


We need to be Word People........Believe only what the word says.....not man......Nor man's interpertation of the Word.......

Jesus said....My Word is Spirit and My Word is Life.......

The word of God is Spirit.......It is Spirit Food.....It feeds our Spirit man.....and to depart from it......we die.....We die spiritual.....

We cannot See......nor do we Hear.........

Jesus said.....Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church.....Rev.2:29


We need to listen to what God is saying.......The Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into All Truth.......If we listen.......

We cannot understand the word by the carnal mind......The carnal mind is an enemy to Christ....To be carnal minded.....Paul said.....is death...But to be Spiritually Minded is Life......The Carnal mind is an enemy to God.......



That is Why......Jesus told the woman at the well....In JOhn 4.........


John 4:21..........Jesus saith unto her........WOMAN....BELIEVE ME......THE HOUR COMETH......WHEN YE SHALL NEITHER IN THIS MOUNTAIN.....NOR YET AT JERUSALEM, WORSHIP THE FATHER.........


23.......But the HOUR Cometh, and NOW IS.......

when the TRUE WORSHIPPERS........Shall WORSHIP THE FATHER.......IN

SPIRIT.......AND IN TRUTH:

FOR THE FATHER SEEKETH SUCH TO WORSHIP HIM..........


24.......GOD IS A SPIRIT:


and they THAT WORSHIP HIM..........MUST...MUST....MUST.......WORSHIP

HIM IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.....


We have to have the Spirit of Truth.....to understand the scriptures....and we must walk in the Truth.........

That is why Jesus said......We must Love Him First......More then or less then our families......and our own life also.......We must be willing to forsake all to fellow Him........We must love Him first.....Truth first.......

Jesus said......I AM the Truth.......the Life and the Way........




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Postby beeps on Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:46 pm

Amen that you and your wife have seen the truth. We are told so many times that prophecy and the coming of the Lord does not matter. Well did God waste his words then in speaking about it so much. Its funny how you have to actually be taught the pre-trib thing rather unlike the post trib which you simply get from reading the Bible.

Love in Yeshua from a rock solid post -tribber. :banana:
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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:49 pm

Hey, Beeps!!!!

:wavewelcome:

Cute name, by the way. :grin:

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Postby beeps on Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:51 pm

Hi salty,

Hello from the dark and apostate UK, theres no food here, gasping for air!!!!!

Shalom
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Postby Salty Skipper on Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:52 pm

Well, Beeps, you've come to the right place for prophecy discussion. Don't know how long you have read here...but there's lots of good stuff. :wink:
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:57 pm

:wavewelcome: beeps!

It's so good to have you on the board!

Blessings,

Bob
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:03 pm

beeps wrote:Hello from the dark and apostate UK, theres no food here, gasping for air!!!!!

Shalom


Welcome beeps! He's the bread of life, Amen! And there's plenty of good fellowship here. Hope to hear from you often and know that my prayers are with you and the UK.
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Postby 1956Ford on Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:39 pm

ChrisJ wrote:Well,

I have been nicely asked to leave my church, and my wife's family is very, very upset (as in, "the door is shutting").

I will be notifying our mission board this week; time table was a little bit off, so I didn't let the cat out of the bag until Saturday.

I have been called a heretic, teaching doctrine of devils, etc.

LOL Ain't it all grand?

I am actually enjoying the whole thing. My wife says I am a Vulcan. Not really, but I do get a kick out of watching folks 'carry on.'


Hi Chris,
I know what you mean. When my mom joined a new church the pastor came out to visit. I told the pastor that I was post trib.

The following Sunday night he preached a sermon against the post trib rapture.

LOL
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