Signs in the sun

[Seeker]

Jesus gave His disciples and us a very detailed description of what to expect near His return in both Matthew 24 and Luke 21, as well as other places within the bible. The stage is set in Matthew 24 with two questions the disciples asked Jesus.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

They asked when these things will occur and what will be the sign of His coming and the end of the world. It is important to note that the disciples considered His return and the end of the world as one event since they encompassed both in the same question. Jesus begins His answer as follows.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 

They and us are warned from the very beginning of His answer that many will claim to be the returning Christ leading to the deception of many. Jesus then lays out a series sorrows that lead up to His return.

Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 
Mat 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows. 
Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 
Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 
Mat 24:12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 

They are then told that whoever endures until the end will be saved. The teaching is simple and clear.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 
Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

A condition for the end is that the gospel will be preached as a witness in all of the world. Many have argued that has already occured. My question to them would be then why hasn't the end occured yet? It is a clear condition for the end. I believe the answer to that question reveals itself in Revelation and the two witnesses.

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 
Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 
Rev 11:5  And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 
Rev 11:6  These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 
Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 
Rev 11:9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 
Rev 11:10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 
Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

The two witnesses are given 3 1/2 years to preach to the whole world while it is trying to destroy them. They are given the ability to produce Moses like judgments, not only upon Egypt but extending to the whole world. God gives sinners every chance He can to repent prior to the judgments that lead to the end of the world. These two witnesses will no doubt be broadcast to every human on earth at the time. The judgments of God are just and always include the ability to repent and be saved. Several times throughout the book of Revelation, God offers the option of repentance to those under His judgments.

Rev_9:20  And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev_9:21  Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev_16:9  And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Rev_16:11  And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Rev 16:16  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 

Repentance is offered even up to the battle of Armageddon itself. God rachets up the endtime judgments severity in a similar manner as was done by Moses in Egypt. Pharoah was given many opportunities to let Israel leave Egypt prior to the last devastating plague that He sent. I believe Moses/Pharoah was a sort of foreshadow of the two witnesses/AntiChrist. I think the judgments of Revelation are designed to bring as many into repentance as possible before God has to unleash His wrath upon this earth.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The return of Jesus seems to be put off as long as possible to bring as many as possible to repentance. There is a limit though after which Jesus returns in wrath. This first post sets the tone for discussing the Signs in the sun that Jesus refers to prior to His return.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21 is a parallel account of Matthew 24. Each are similar but have differences or additional information as I like to think of it. Details for the story which are interchangeable in a sense between both chapters as they speak of the same set of events. For example.

Luk 21:5  And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 
Luk 21:6  As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 
Luk 21:7  And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 

Mat 24:1  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 
Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 
Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Both accounts say the same thing in different ways. They both begin with the disciples marvel at the temple which they were not shy in proclaiming to Jesus. His response must have stunned them. So both of these accounts start with the same beginning. That tells me that I can add all the details of both accounts together to get a more complete picture of the events than I would if I were reading either account by itself.

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 
Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luk 21:7  And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 
Luk 21:8  And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.  

It's the same story throughout much of the chapter. There are some notable differences though which gives me additional details. Since I am discussing Signs in the sun I am looking for all the info I can find concerning it and it happens to be a place where I can pick up extra info from looking at both accounts.


Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 

Definitely some signs in the sun here. Not only will the sun/moon/stars be darkened but the nations will be distressed with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring. To such a degree that men's hearts will be failing them from the fear of what's coming for the powers of heaven will be shaken. Stop and digest that for a minute. Men will know what is heading their way and be absolutely terrified by it.

That hit me one day so I started thinking of all the verses I sort of knew pertaining to cosmic disturbances and there are a lot of them. So I thought I might try to sort through them and possibly under cover some insights into what is actually taking place in the heavens just prior to the return of Christ as introduced to us in both Matt 24 and Luke 21. Revelation comes quickly to mind as well. I have always been sort of a star gazer and fascinated by the night sky since childhood.

God sometimes uses natural mechanisms and catastrophes to get men's attention or deliver His wrath upon them. Noah and the flood comes to mind. God could have just snapped His fingers and Noah + family and two of everything would be standing there. God's judgments are just and He gave men plenty of advance notice via Noah while he was building the ark. Fire and brimstone are mentioned often as well. So I was thinking that perhaps the cosmic signs might also have natural catalysts which might be known in science today. We know so much more about the sun mechanics each year as new specialized satellites are deployed to study it. Thought it might be an interesting topic to explore.

Peace,
Seeker

[Jericho]

The Second Coming does appear to be conditional on the Jews acknowledging that Jesus is the Messiah. If your interested check out the section under "THE FIFTH STAGE: THE NATIONAL REGENERATION OF ISRAEL": http://www.christsbondservants.org/Endt ... geddon.pdf

[Seeker]

Hi Jericho,

That's a pretty lengthy article. I skimmed it...are there sections relating to the Signs in the sun that you would like to call my attention to?

Peace,
Seeker

[Jericho]

Hi Jericho,

That's a pretty lengthy article. I skimmed it...are there sections relating to the Signs in the sun that you would like to call my attention to?

Peace,
Seeker

Hi Seeker. It's not specifically about the signs in the sun, although it does talk about that briefly at one point. You asked why hasn't the end occurred yet. Skip down to the section under the "Fifth Stage". It talks about the preconditions for Christ's return.

[Seeker]

Hi Jericho,

A condition for the end is that the gospel will be preached as a witness in all of the world. Many have argued that has already occurred. My question to them would be then why hasn't the end occurred yet? It is a clear condition for the end. I believe the answer to that question reveals itself in Revelation and the two witnesses.

Hi Seeker. It's not specifically about the signs in the sun, although it does talk about that briefly at one point. You asked why hasn't the end occurred yet. Skip down to the section under the "Fifth Stage". It talks about the preconditions for Christ's return.

Oh I agree there are many preconditions prior to Jesus returning. I believe the full fulfillment of the gospel being preached in all the world is in the two witnesses yet future. There are many many prophecies yet to be fulfilled prior to the return of Christ. My question was directly to those who might argue that condition had already been met.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Oh, i see now what you are saying...but they would argue that the "End" is a separate issue from "Rapture" or Jesus' "Coming".....AT the "End".

I agree with you though of course, with the Gathering to Christ AFTER the two witnesses. That testimony and The testimony of ALL the saints must First occur BEFORE the Gathering to Christ in the Clouds.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

Yes I don't intend for this topic to be debated. It is in the post trib section because the signs in the sun clearly occur post trib.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened followed by Christ gathering His elect from the 4 winds. Thus the events in the sun occur post trib.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 
Luk 21:27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 
Luk 21:28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 both place the signs in the sun/moon/stars prior to Jesus returning in a cloud. Matt 24 tells us those cosmic signs occur immediately after the tribulation. We know the tribulation lasts ~ 7 years so that places these cosmic disturbances just prior to the millennium and at the end of the last 7 years. The heavens will be shaken as well. There are some serious disturbances throughout our immediate cosmos near the end of the last 7 years. Something very, very major and very, very scary to those on earth occurs just before Christ returns and the millennium starts. Knowing the timing of these events allows us to find them elsewhere in scripture.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? 

Here we see the same set up in Rev 6. We have cosmic signs with men hiding from the face of Jesus as He returns in Wrath. Notice how they hid themselves in the dens and caves. I think that is because of the cosmic disturbances. There are other scriptures that give me that impression which we will explore later. This is the 6th of 7 seal judgments so again that places it near the end of the last 7 years.

Rev 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 
Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 
Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 

Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 

The tribes of Israel are sealed and then we see a great multitude standing before the throne of God. So again the cosmic disturbances that we see in Rev 6:12 occur very near the millennium. The timing is the same as the Matthew 24 and Luke 21 disturbances. This allows us to add the details we find in Rev 6 to our story. We find the stars of heaven fall to the earth and heaven departs as a scroll. Again those on earth are terrified of what they see occurring in the skies and on the earth. Every mountain and Island were moved out of their place. In these intro posts I am trying to gather all the evidence related to the signs in the sun to try and form a bigger picture of what could be occurring to cause these cataclysmic events we see described.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Astroids are what i think will cause the sun and moon to become as Jesus described. Those are the Lumins that are cast to the earth as untimely figs that cause the signs you're seeing in the many texts you've provided.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

Astroids are what i think will cause the sun and moon to become as Jesus described.

Yes they were high on my suspect list for a long time and I think are part of the bigger show. They could very well explain many of the signs I have listed but they fail the test of explaining all of the signs so far, as well as several signs I have yet to post. I am not sure of the entire explanation either and why I am laying it out here where I can study it closer and perhaps together we can gain a few more insights into the bigger picture.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Hi shorttribber,

Astroids are what i think will cause the sun and moon to become as Jesus described.

Yes they were high on my suspect list for a long time and I think are part of the bigger show. They could very well explain many of the signs I have listed but they fail the test of explaining all of the signs so far, as well as several signs I have yet to post. I am not sure of the entire explanation either and why I am laying it out here where I can study it closer and perhaps together we can gain a few more insights into the bigger picture.

Peace,
Seeker

Which signs do you think they may not be connected to?

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

Which signs do you think they may not be connected to?

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isa 34:4  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together in Rev 6 and a parallel verse from Isa 34. If we presume all the hosts of heaven would be stars and all we see then it would be impossible for them all to fall to earth. Some other major cataclysmic event much greater than the earth itself could only cause all of the heavens to be dissolved.

When a scroll is rolled together the words disappear as the roll passes it from both directions until the rolls meet in the middle. The picture I get from this is the stars disappearing from the heavens leaving pure darkness in their wake. I took some time to define the time-frame we are operating in as after the tribulation but before the millennium. The millennial kingdom offers some hints as well.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

There is no need for the sun and the moon in the millennial kingdom and the sun/moon/stars are darkened/dissolved/rolled up as a scroll just prior to the millennium. I get the sense that the entire heavens have a single light source, God Himself.

Mat 8:8  The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 
Mat 8:9  For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 
Mat 8:10  When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 
Mat 8:11  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 
Mat 8:12  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

Mat 22:8  Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 
Mat 22:9  Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 
Mat 22:10  So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 
Mat 22:11  And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 
Mat 22:12  And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 
Mat 22:13  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 
Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen. 

Mat 25:24  Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 
Mat 25:25  And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 
Mat 25:26  His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 
Mat 25:27  Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 
Mat 25:28  Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 
Mat 25:29  For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 
Mat 25:30  And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

On three different occasions Jesus made reference to being cast out into the outer darkness. So it appears to me God and New Jerusalem will be the light of the world and those judged not worthy will exist in the outer darkness outside of New Jerusalem.

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Here we have reference to the angels who rebelled with Satan being kept in everlasting chains under darkness. So I think that there is something really massive that removes the stars of heaven prior to the millennium. Massive black hole perhaps or something similar. There are dark stars that could possibly be in a binary arrangement with our sun like many star systems that we can observe. What ever it is rolls the universe up like a scroll leaving darkness. That's what I believe anyway. Exactly what who knows but there are some other clues I will get to a bit later.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Hi Seeker,
Great points, i wonder though if the rolling up and passing away of the "Stars" are not actually astroids though.
Because the word used in Hebrew or greek are essentially Lights or Lumens.

Also that these things are seen in a vision, i'm not sure how much or all of the Entire Universe passes away.

"All" can mean many things in Biblical language. It can mean All Varieties for example...in other words "All Kinds" of lights Pass away because of the Massive "Passing Away" of what we Typically SEE in the Night Skies.

It will not occur that Stars, actual "Stars", which are actually Suns, will be cast to the earth...i am convinced that these will be astroids and Very Large Meteors.

AND...Rev 6 is describing the Same events as what is occurring and described at the end of Rev 11.

And Only 30 days Aprox. will remain in time after that until the millennial reign begins.(IF there is an actual, literal millennial reign.

So, these events described all happen Aprox 30 days before the Extreme END of TIME as we know it......that's what i think.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

Great points, i wonder though if the rolling up and passing away of the "Stars" are not actually astroids though.
Because the word used in Hebrew or greek are essentially Lights or Lumens.

Also that these things are seen in a vision, i'm not sure how much or all of the Entire Universe passes away.

Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 

Yes I said the heavens rolling up could not be explained by asteroids. Jesus said heaven and earth pass away and we see that in Rev 21:1. Also I am not interested in debating timing or your interpretations and why I also put this topic in a non debate forum.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Hi shorttribber,

Great points, i wonder though if the rolling up and passing away of the "Stars" are not actually astroids though.
Because the word used in Hebrew or greek are essentially Lights or Lumens.

Also that these things are seen in a vision, i'm not sure how much or all of the Entire Universe passes away.

Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 

Yes I said the heavens rolling up could not be explained by asteroids. Jesus said heaven and earth pass away and we see that in Rev 21:1. Also I am not interested in debating timing or your interpretations and why I also put this topic in a non debate forum.

Peace,
Seeker

I'm not trying to debate either. I may have phrased my sentence better though i think.
I was trying to say that i think the Lumens described in scripture will be astroids, and not Suns/Stars.
I think these things are in some sense literal but not entirely. I think do not they will all utterly disappear or (pass away) so to speak.

I'm not sure what will actually happen, so in that sense, i'm certainly not in any position to debate any of these things either, nor do i desire to.