Understanding the "day of the LORD"

No opposing arguments allowed

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:08 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:If we are to understand the Millennial Reign of Christ we must also understand that there will be those who are alive at the Coming of Christ who will be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. We already know that Christ will Return with those who have been Raptured.


Hi again Seeker,

I know that you probably haven't had the time to respond to what I have written yet - or your PC is still malfunctioning :mrgreen: But I wanted to back up what I have been saying with Scripture:

Zechariah 12:8-10

8) In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9) And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10) “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.


AND:

Zechariah 14:4-5

4) In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5) You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!


I believe that the aforementioned Passages of Scripture are clearly speaking of those who will be alive at His Coming, who will be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. They will participate in the Sheep & Goats Judgment - and will re-populate the Earth during His Millennial Reign.
Mr Baldy
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:49 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Finally got a new used PC from this decade lol. My old PC was very very old and making lots of noise for a long time. I am surprised it held on for so long. Just getting everything set back up on it so am short of time currently but wanted to let you know I will be back to continue this conversation shortly. Thanks for your patience.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:44 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

When Christ provides the parable of the Dragnet we must understand when this occurs; it's location - and we must compare it to what has been written in other passages of Scripture. At the Sheep & Goats Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) we see Christ coming to Earth and seated on His glorious throne. The Nations are described as being "gathered" before Him. He is the one who then separates the Good Sheep or (wheat) from the Evil Goats the (tares). If you'll continue to read a Judgment Sentence is given to the Evil Goats or (tares) and they "go away into eternal punishment". Now this appears to be in contrast with the parable of the Dragnet - which states that the angels are sent to "take out" the wicked from the righteous and "will throw them into the furnace of fire". But it is not.

After the Evil Goats are sentenced - it is at that point the angels are sent by Christ to "take out " those who are wicked and cast them into the furnace of fire to await the Great White Throne Judgment, in which the 2nd Resurrection occurs. Please notice that "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are described there - therefore this cannot be the "Lake of Fire" but Hades - where "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are described, and the Wicked dead go after they die to await the 2nd Resurrection at the GWTJ. Weeping and gnashing of teeth are NOT described there, as Death and Hell are cast into it - which is the FINAL DEATH. The Good Sheep or wheat are allowed to enter the Kingdom or barn.


Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


I agree that the Sheep/Goat and the Wheat/Tares occur at the same point in time and are the same gathering. So my next question to you would be how do you deal with the parable saying that the tares are removed "first". I don't quite understand that from your post. It says both the wheat and tares are to grow together until a certain point in time. That certain point in time is called the harvest. At the harvest, where both groups are present, we see the tares being removed first. The harvest is also described as the end of the world. It is described as Jesus coming in glory with all His angels with Him in the sheep/goat example.

Jesus is described as coming in glory and with His angels at the beginning of the millennium not the ending of it. When Jesus described His second coming He described it in association with glory and His angels with Him. The description of the sheep parable matches the second coming descriptions. Since the wheat parable is the same it also deals with the second coming of Christ. At the second coming of Christ the tares are removed "first" before the wheat is gathered into the barn. That means the saints are raptured in a Post-Wrath manner.


Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


Here again it is clear that both groups are gathered in the same harvest and sorted out. The context tells us that the bad were removed from among the good again indicating that the bad are removed first from among the good. All three parables (sheep/wheat/net) agree and say the same thing. Regardless of when you place the rapture of the good, the parables tell us that prior to that rapture of the good; we see the removal of the bad via God's wrath at the end of the last 7 years. It is also referred to as the last day and the end of the world...etc. Seems real simple and straight forward to me rather than trying to separate the removal of the bad from the removal of the good. Scripture just doesn't support that and everywhere we see the two groups at the harvest we see the bad being removed first.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:01 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Your response question concerning the "timing of those who have come out of the great tribulation" is really irrelevant as there is no Scriptural evidence that "great tribulation" ends at the last day of the final week. Jesus Himself gives absolutely no time period in which it ends - only that except "those days be cut short," no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect "those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:22) Placing a "time period" on "great tribulation" which Jesus refers to - in relation to "THE great tribulation" in which the Book of Revelation refers to, and is highly symbolic leads to Huge Assumptions that many have made.


Actually it is quite relevant and there is scripture that tells us precisely when the great tribulation ends. We have to go back to the book of Daniel to find it.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Ok first we are told that the AC makes war with the saints and prevails against them "Until" the Ancient of days came, judgment was given to the saints, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The AC makes war with and prevails against the saints until Jesus returns and the kingdom is given to the saints. The AC continues his war (great tribulation) up until Jesus returns. That matches what other scriptures say as well. Rev 19 show Jesus returning to defeat the AC at the end of the last 7 years after the vial judgments.

His war with the saints ends when the Ancient of days came and the kingdom was given to the saints. That precisely defines the ending of the great tribulation. We are even given how long that time period is in Dan 7:25, 3 1/2 years. So again the 3 1/2 years is the full length of time alloted and has already been cut short just like Mark says.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Had and hath are both past tense making the shortening of days past tense. The days have already been shortened to 3 1/2 years.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


The little horn (AC) plucked three up by the roots. Daniel watched until the thrones were cast down, the Ancient of days did sit, judgment was set, the books were opened. He watched until the beast was slain and his body given to the burning flame just as we see happen in Rev 19. It all fits perfectly together when we believe that when God writes 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, 42 months....He means precisely what He says. Pre-wrath must say none of those precisely specific spans of times given are actually the time of the tribulation. That is simply ignoring the bigger part of scripture and the only way their theory will work. Scripture has to be ignored or changed straight up to satisfy the requirements of Pre-wrath. The last day isn't really the last day, the first resurrection isn't really the first resurrection, the tares aren't really taken first, the bad aren't severed from among the good, the end of the world isn't really the end, 3 1/2 years isn't really 3 1/2 years. There are more hoops to jump through than a dog act in a three ring circus if one wants to take the pre-wrath position.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:20 pm

Seeker wrote:I agree that the Sheep/Goat and the Wheat/Tares occur at the same point in time and are the same gathering. So my next question to you would be how do you deal with the parable saying that the tares are removed "first". I don't quite understand that from your post. It says both the wheat and tares are to grow together until a certain point in time. That certain point in time is called the harvest. At the harvest, where both groups are present, we see the tares being removed first. The harvest is also described as the end of the world. It is described as Jesus coming in glory with all His angels with Him in the sheep/goat example.


Hi Seeker,

Good to see back! :mrgreen:

I have read your response - and I believe I see where I believe that you have apparently "added" something to the very Scriptures that you have provided. Before I mention what I am writing about, let me say that had you read my initial response carefully, you would have clearly seen that I answered your question. Now, nowhere have I read in Matthew 13:28-30 (the very Scriptures that you have provided) that the tares are "removed first". This is a very critical error that you have made, in that you have "added" something to Scripture which is certainly not there. I believe that this is why you have not understood my initial response.

What Matthew 13:28-30 states is that the tares are "gathered first" - which is quite different from "removed first". In my initial response to you, I clearly gave the passage of Matthew 25:31-46 which describes the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His COMING. (For the sake of time, I will not re-write it - please read my explanation again)
I further provided an example in Zechariah 12 and 14 in which there will be those who have not been raptured - however they will be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. These Seeker are the Sheep that will be separated from the Goats.

Seeker wrote:Jesus is described as coming in glory and with His angels at the beginning of the millennium not the ending of it. When Jesus described His second coming He described it in association with glory and His angels with Him. The description of the sheep parable matches the second coming descriptions. Since the wheat parable is the same it also deals with the second coming of Christ. At the second coming of Christ the tares are removed "first" before the wheat is gathered into the barn. That means the saints are raptured in a Post-Wrath manner.


Here again Seeker is where you have not understood what I have communicated. It is very CLEAR that Jesus comes with His angels at the beginning of the Millennium. I have never mentioned otherwise.

What I believe you are confusing is not understanding that the gathering happens PRIOR to the removal. In Matthew 25:31-46 at the Sheep and Goats Judgment - ALL the Nations are GATHERED before Christ. The Sheep are place on His Right and the Goats are placed on His Left - this is a "gathering". Then Judgment commences. The angels are sent forth at that time to "remove" the Goats - and they "go away into eternal punishment" ; in other words the angels are sent forth to throw them into Hades to await the GWTJ at which time they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

But I explained all of the aforementioned in my initial response. I'm confused as to why you did not understand what I wrote.
Mr Baldy
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:24 pm

Seeker wrote:It all fits perfectly together when we believe that when God writes 3 1/2 years, 1260 days, 42 months....He means precisely what He says. Pre-wrath must say none of those precisely specific spans of times given are actually the time of the tribulation. That is simply ignoring the bigger part of scripture and the only way their theory will work. Scripture has to be ignored or changed straight up to satisfy the requirements of Pre-wrath. The last day isn't really the last day, the first resurrection isn't really the first resurrection, the tares aren't really taken first, the bad aren't severed from among the good, the end of the world isn't really the end, 3 1/2 years isn't really 3 1/2 years. There are more hoops to jump through than a dog act in a three ring circus if one wants to take the pre-wrath position.


Seeker, I agree with you concerning "He means precisely what He says."

I have had to put aside my views concerning my position on the Rapture and how it relates to the Coming of the Lord because in the views that are out there ...well, they all appear to have holes in them. However, there is one thing that I know for absolute certainty - and that is, that there is a Truth. We my not understand how to come about it, but there is an absolute Truth out there, and it is available to us if we continue to Seek Him.

In saying that, it has become very clear to me that the Lord comes AFTER the Tribulation period - and there is a "Gathering of His elect". Scripture plainly declares that in Matthew 24:31 - however, this does not necessarily mean that it is the Rapture, as it is not described as occurring in the air - but from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. This particular "gathering" could be the "gathering" that is described in Matthew 25:31 which commences the Sheep & Goats Judgment.

Now, You have denied that there is a Pre-Wrath Rapture, but the more and more I have continued to study - to include this current study with you, I am becoming more convinced that there is a Pre-Wrath Rapture, and it appears to be the only one that absolutely reconciles all the various passages of Scripture that relates to "our gathering unto Him in the clouds" in perfect harmony. The Pre-Wrath position allows those who are in Christ to be "caught" up to meet Him in the air as His Wrath is being pour out at the 6th Seal. The Pre-Wrath position further allows for the "remnant" of Israel, who is protected from the Antichrist in the wilderness during the Great Tribulation to enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies at His Coming. They are the Sheep at the Sheep & Goats Judgment who come to know Him as they look upon Him described in Zechariah 12:8-10.

This Pre-Wrath position is closely related to the Post-Tribulation position. Where the Post-Tribulation Rapture has fallen short is - in a nutshell - is Revelation 7. The Post -Tribulation position has a serious problem with Revelation 7 - and no matter how many attempts I tried to make that theory work, it continued to fall short. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and Mid-Tribulation Rapture theories are no brainers - Scripture just absolutely does not support either of those views.

In closing Seeker, I get your Post-Wrath view - however, right now you too have not been able to reconcile Revelation 7 to fit your view - nor have you been able to tell me what happens to the Body of Christ when God's Wrath is being poured out.

Oh, and one last thing........ describe what you believe Christ meant by "the last day". Keep in mind that He said He would raise them up on the last day - what does "raise" them up mean to you as well?
Mr Baldy
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:53 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

I have read your response - and I believe I see where I believe that you have apparently "added" something to the very Scriptures that you have provided. Before I mention what I am writing about, let me say that had you read my initial response carefully, you would have clearly seen that I answered your question. Now, nowhere have I read in Matthew 13:28-30 (the very Scriptures that you have provided) that the tares are "removed first". This is a very critical error that you have made, in that you have "added" something to Scripture which is certainly not there. I believe that this is why you have not understood my initial response.

What Matthew 13:28-30 states is that the tares are "gathered first" - which is quite different from "removed first". In my initial response to you, I clearly gave the passage of Matthew 25:31-46 which describes the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His COMING. (For the sake of time, I will not re-write it - please read my explanation again)
I further provided an example in Zechariah 12 and 14 in which there will be those who have not been raptured - however they will be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. These Seeker are the Sheep that will be separated from the Goats.


It would appear that you do not understand the wheat/tare parable. Let me step through the interpretation that Jesus gives us for the wheat parable. Jesus tells us exactly what the parable means in the interpretation.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


The disciples did not understand the parable so they asked Jesus what the parable meant. Jesus then provides "the" interpretation for the parable. Not "a" interpretation "the" interpretation. The reason I say "remove" is because of what the interpretation says. It says that Jesus will send forth His angels and they will gather "out of His kingdom". To gather men out of the kingdom means they are removed from the kingdom. Then will the righteous shine forth in the kingdom. After all things that offend are removed from the kingdom then the righteous shine forth in the kingdom. The tares are removed first leaving the righteous to inherit the kingdom of God. Evil removed good left for the kingdom.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Same thing here we see the wicked are severed from among the just. How is it possible to sever the wicked from among the just if the just have been raptured? The just cannot be raptured before the wicked are removed or it would be totally impossible to separate the wicked from among the just who aren't there.

Like I say it doesn't matter when you think the net parable occurs. Where ever you place it we still see the wicked removed from the group of the just. If they are raptured before the wicked are taken then Matt 13:49 is impossible. You can say they are gathered at the start of the millennium which is fine but at that point in time the just have to be there as well. If you place the net parable at the end of the millennium then the just also have to be there with the unjust. The net parable is very clear that both the good and bad are gathered in the same net at the same time. That is the part I can't understand from your theory. If you say the wicked are gathered when Jesus arrives at Armageddon then the just have to still be there so that the wicked can be removed from among the just.

First let me apologize for not responding to the parable in Matthew 13 - I must have overlooked it. There are many parables there - but they all have the same ending. The parable of the Dragnet, in which you are referring to however, speaks of the "end of the age". The topic of your thread is: "Understanding the day of the Lord".


This is part of your response to my question concerning the net parable. What does it matter if it is the end of the age? If it is the end of the age then the just are still there as well waiting for the wicked to be removed from them. I don't understand what you are trying to say concerning the net parable. If you are trying to say that the bad are removed at Armageddon that leaves the just there at Armageddon. You can't separate the wicked from the just because of the words in the net parable.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.


They are gathered in the same net at the same time. The net gathered of every kind. Out of that "every" kind the good are put in vessels and the bad cast away. They are gathered at the same point in time. The wheat parable also says they both are to grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest the angels first gather the tares. The tares are gathered first before the wheat are dealt with. Both grow "together" until the harvest.

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


The harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are the angels. They gather and reap the wheat/tares at the same harvest with the tares being gathered first. Theses parables are very simple to understand. How do you come to the conclusion that the wheat is raptured before the tares from these parables. It simply does not say that or I don't understand what you are saying. It is too simple of a parable to be confused about. The parables say that both groups are gathered in the same harvest with evil being gathered from among the good. Can you explain your view of the net parable again for me so we can clear this up?

Thanks,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:13 am

Seeker wrote: How is it possible to sever the wicked from among the just if the just have been raptured? The just cannot be raptured before the wicked are removed or it would be totally impossible to separate the wicked from among the just who aren't there.


Hi Seeker,

Either I'm not explaining myself very well....or you just don't read everything that has been provided - in other words what others write down. I've mentioned that I believe that we have those who have been raptured - and we have those who will be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies - or else how could you have a Millennial Kingdom that is apparently repopulated? And who is Christ separating at His Coming at the Sheep & Goats Judgment? I've provided ample Scripture to cover both of those questions.

Seeker wrote: If they are raptured before the wicked are taken then Matt 13:49 is impossible. You can say they are gathered at the start of the millennium which is fine but at that point in time the just have to be there as well. If you place the net parable at the end of the millennium then the just also have to be there with the unjust. The net parable is very clear that both the good and bad are gathered in the same net at the same time. That is the part I can't understand from your theory.


Again Seeker, I have addressed this. What I believe that you have failed to see is you want to include ALL (both alive & dead) and of the just and ALL of the unrighteous (both alive & dead) into the same net - and make it one general resurrection. Scripture won't allow you to do this. If this were possible there would be no need for a Millennial Kingdom, and everything ENDS at the Return of Christ. There would be no need for a Great White Throne Judgment - because again, everything would END at His Coming. Where do you place the Sheep & Goats Judgment - where it is very clear that the wicked are separated from the just? What happens to the wicked who attack the Holy City at the END of the Millennial Kingdom? (Revelation 20:9) You say that the "good and bad are gathered in the net at the same time" - and they are in that particular parable - but there is a "GATHERING" that occurs prior to a "Removal" - so you have to do something with how Scripture explains the Sheep & Goats Judgment.

Seeker wrote: I don't understand what you are trying to say concerning the net parable. If you are trying to say that the bad are removed at Armageddon that leaves the just there at Armageddon. You can't separate the wicked from the just because of the words in the net parable.


Seeker, the just ARE there at Armageddon (at least the one's who were not raptured) - and I've provided Scripture for that as well. Again, there are those who will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom who will have survived the Great Tribulation - and will have mortal bodies - it is they who will be the Sheep. If Christ is Coming with His Saints - and we know that He is, then why would He need to separate them from the Goats? So there will be those who are not Raptured - however they will be saved.

Please look at this:

Zechariah 14:16-19 - (NASB)

16) Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17) And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18) If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19) This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.


The aforementioned verses of Scripture is clearly mentioning the requirement for those who have entered the Millennial Kingdom.

Here is another example that I have provided:



Zechariah 8:7-8 - (NASB)

7)Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; 8) and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’


This too occurs at His Coming - and at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. This is the "Remnant" of Israel who will be saved - and allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies.

And this:



Zechariah 12:10 - (NASB)

10) “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.


Yes Seeker, this again is the "Remnant of Israel" who will be saved - it is they who are also a part of the Sheep and will stand before Him at His Return.

Seeker wrote:They are gathered in the same net at the same time. The net gathered of every kind. Out of that "every" kind the good are put in vessels and the bad cast away. They are gathered at the same point in time. The wheat parable also says they both are to grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest the angels first gather the tares. The tares are gathered first before the wheat are dealt with. Both grow "together" until the harvest.


I'm glad you understand that. Where the difference in our understanding comes in at is where you believe this is an event that covers ALL at the end of the age. You have not allowed the other passages of Scripture that truly deals with ALL to speak to you.

Many have been taught that if you don't make the Rapture - then you can hang it up. But then that leaves MANY passages of Scripture that goes unexplained - and otherwise makes no sense. I guess for them it is a hard thing to believe that there will be those who will be alive - both Righteous & Unrighteous at His Coming. There will be those who are Raptured prior to His Coming; and return with Him - hence the WARNING that He gives to believers to be prepared. Then there will be those who are gathered - both Righteous (who have not been Raptured) & Unrighteous who will be at His Sheep & Goats Judgment.

Those who are Judged as Unrighteous at the Sheep & Goats Judgment are carried away by the angels to Hades to await the Great White Throne Judgment. They are then resurrected at the end of the Millennial Kingdom (2nd Resurrection) and are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Those who are Judged as Righteous at the Sheep & Goats Judgment are allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. They will repopulate the Earth; be required to come to Jerusalem once a year - or they get no rain for their crops (Zechariah 14:16-19). It is their offspring that are born during the Millennial Reign of Christ that reject Christ - even though He is in Jerusalem Reigning. It is they who Satan deceives during the "short season" he is let out of his prison after the Millennial Reign. Finally it is they who come against the Saints of God in Jerusalem at the Final Rebellion (Gog and Magog war and they are ultimately destroyed - and ALL Wicked is finally destroyed.

Christ will have then completed the role of as Savior - and He hands the Kingdom up to God the Father - so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

In closing Seeker, I believe that I have reconciled "Understanding the Day of the Lord" with Scripture. In your theory that ALL are gathered at the end of the age is correct - however, it is all who are ALIVE at that time. With what you have provided there would be no need for a Millennial Kingdom; no 2nd Resurrection; no Great White Throne Judgment; No Sheep & Goats Judgment - and no Final Rebellion after Satan is let loose from his prison after the Millennial Kingdom. It would ALL just simply just END at His Coming. Scripture has to be reconciled and work in harmony.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:34 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Either I'm not explaining myself very well....or you just don't read everything that has been provided - in other words what others write down. I've mentioned that I believe that we have those who have been raptured - and we have those who will be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies - or else how could you have a Millennial Kingdom that is apparently repopulated? And who is Christ separating at His Coming at the Sheep & Goats Judgment? I've provided ample Scripture to cover both of those questions.


It isn't that I don't read what you write I just can't make much sense of it in comparison to scripture. There are a couple of options for who repopulates the millennial kingdom and Christians aren't part of that possibility. The people who are Christians are all raptured at the return of Christ. So the sheep you describe can't be Christians since they were raptured at the return of Christ and have immortal bodies at that point so they can't procreate.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Like I say I am not really sure what you are saying since clearly mortals turn to immortals at the rapture as we see in 1Co 15:54. Once immortal they can't repopulate the earth. So that leaves only two possibilities to repopulate the millennium that I can find. There are two groups that we find in scripture that are not Christian but are shown in the millennium. It is out of those that the millennial kingdom is repopulated since immortal Christians obviously can't have children. We see them here in scripture as well as other places.

Zec 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


So we have two groups shown in the millennium from all the nations and Jewish which were not raptured and given immortal bodies. They can easily repopulate the millennium. There is no need to deny some of the sheep being raptured just so there is someone to repopulate the earth. Pre-wrath forces you to take immortality away from some of the sheep. Just like the tribulation being cut short. Scripture must be changed to maintain a pre-wrath position. Mark 13 and Dan 7 both clearly show that the trib has already been cut short to 3 1/2 years.

Seeker, the just ARE there at Armageddon (at least the one's who were not raptured) - and I've provided Scripture for that as well. Again, there are those who will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom who will have survived the Great Tribulation - and will have mortal bodies - it is they who will be the Sheep. If Christ is Coming with His Saints - and we know that He is, then why would He need to separate them from the Goats? So there will be those who are not Raptured - however they will be saved.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together withthem in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


So how do we meet "them" in the air? We are raptured to meet "them" in the air. Who are the them and how did they get to be with the Lord? God brings them (dead in Christ) with Him and we meet them in the air at the rapture. Christ comes with the dead in Christ and then the living in Christ are raptured to meet them. It really surprises me that someone with your bible knowledge would miss these simple points in scripture concerning the rapture. You have fallen into the trap the rest of pre-wrath has. You have to change scriptures to make it work. So you say that it is the living saints that come with the Lord then who are those who rise to meet them in the air. Do you see the folly of that thought? I don't mind discussing these things with you if you are open minded about it. But it appears that you are changing scriptures to suite your theory rather than changing your theory to match scripture. I have allowed this debate in this thread since I know you to be a good student of scripture. Honestly though what I am seeing from you in this debate is not up to your caliber.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:58 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Again Seeker, I have addressed this. What I believe that you have failed to see is you want to include ALL (both alive & dead) and of the just and ALL of the unrighteous (both alive & dead) into the same net


Not at all. The harvest consists of live Christians not dead Christians. The dead in Christ are already with Him. And again the wheat/tare parable is clear about that.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


The field is the world. The world has live people not dead. The dead are already with the Lord no reason to rapture them.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Absent from the body, present with the Lord. The dead are already with Christ. They are the ones God brings with Him in 1Th4.

Where do you place the Sheep & Goats Judgment - where it is very clear that the wicked are separated from the just?


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


I place the sheep/goat judgment where we see Jesus come in glory with all His angels with Him. Where do we see Jesus coming in glory with His angels?

Mat_16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat_25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


These are places where I see Jesus coming in glory with His angels. So I place the sheep/goat at the return of Jesus. Can you provide scripture showing Jesus coming in glory at any other time than I have shown?

What happens to the wicked who attack the Holy City at the END of the Millennial Kingdom? (Revelation 20:9) You say that the "good and bad are gathered in the net at the same time" - and they are in that particular parable - but there is a "GATHERING" that occurs prior to a "Removal" - so you have to do something with how Scripture explains the Sheep & Goats Judgment.


They are destroyed and then become part of the GWTJ. The wicked and just I speak of are alive at the return of Jesus.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


How is it that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire when Satan is cast into it to join them after the 1,000 years. How did they get there?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:04 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

One other thing I thought about is this.


Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


There are three parables in Matt 25. The first two describe the return of Jesus. Why would scripture show two parables concerning the return of Jesus to the earth and the third 1,000 years after Jesus returned to earth? That is another reason that the sheep/goat parable is more likely at the beginning of the millennium rather than the end of it. All three speak of the return of Jesus and the first two clearly speak of His return to earth. The sheep/goat parable is another parable making the same point as the other two.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:45 am

Hi Seeker,

I don't have much time this morning...but just wanted to point something out to you before I go to work:

First you write:

Seeker wrote:There are a couple of options for who repopulates the millennial kingdom and Christians aren't part of that possibility. The people who are Christians are all raptured at the return of Christ.


Seeker, I believe that this is a common mistake that many make. Where does Scripture indicate that ALL who are Christians are Raptured at the return of Christ? This belief has been "read into".

Then your write:

Seeker wrote:So we have two groups shown in the millennium from all the nations and Jewish which were not raptured and given immortal bodies. They can easily repopulate the millennium.


Oh really, so now you are saying that it is only the Jews who are given "immortal bodies" out of those two groups, and you further say that it is they that can "easily repopulate the millennium". Well, how is that so if they have immortal bodies? And at what point are they resurrected or changed?


But you pen this:

Seeker wrote: So the sheep you describe can't be Christians since they were raptured at the return of Christ and have immortal bodies at that point so they can't procreate.


The aforementioned is a HUGE contradiction that you have presented. Either immortals cannot reproduce - which we know they cannot, and/or there is a serious flaw in your theory. I believe it's both.

I have provided ample Scripture which indicates that there will be those allowed in the Kingdom in mortal bodies. It is they, and ONLY they who can reproduce. I know this concept is very hard for most to believe - but you have not shown any evidence to the contrary.

I'm off to work now, but I will most certainly pick up where I left off when I return.

God Bless....and I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. :mrgreen:
Mr Baldy
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:33 pm

Hi Seeker,

I asked you this question:

What happens to the wicked who attack the Holy City at the END of the Millennial Kingdom? (Revelation 20:9) You say that the "good and bad are gathered in the net at the same time" - and they are in that particular parable - but there is a "GATHERING" that occurs prior to a "Removal" - so you have to do something with how Scripture explains the Sheep & Goats Judgment.


You responded with:

Seeker wrote:They are destroyed and then become part of the GWTJ. The wicked and just I speak of are alive at the return of Jesus.


There again Seeker, with your response you have a problem. You have mentioned that there is only ONE Resurrection in which the good and evil are harvested together - and Judgment ensues which provides the ultimate fate of both. Well, Scripture mentions TWO Resurrections. If those wicked who attack the Holy City at the END of the Millennial Kingdom are a part of the GWTJ - which is true - then you will also have to concede to the fact that the wicked who are alive at His Coming will be Judged as well at the GWTJ, where Scripture mentions the 2nd Resurrection occurs.

You wrote - and asked this:

Seeker wrote:How is it that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire when Satan is cast into it to join them after the 1,000 years. How did they get there?


First let me say that I believe that the "beast" is the Forth and Final Empire - and the "false prophet" is non other than the Antichrist (another topic). But did you know that The Beast and the False Prophet are the only entity/person that is cast into the Lake of Fire without Judgment? They of course as you may well know are cast into the Lake of Fire at His Coming. Satan is the only other being that is cast into the Lake of Fire without Judgment - however it is 1,000 years and "a little season" later.

I don't understand your question, or how it relates to the topic at hand concerning their entry into the Lake of Fire prior to the Millennial Reign however. So please explain.
Mr Baldy
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:37 pm

Seeker wrote:There are three parables in Matt 25. The first two describe the return of Jesus. Why would scripture show two parables concerning the return of Jesus to the earth and the third 1,000 years after Jesus returned to earth? That is another reason that the sheep/goat parable is more likely at the beginning of the millennium rather than the end of it. All three speak of the return of Jesus and the first two clearly speak of His return to earth. The sheep/goat parable is another parable making the same point as the other two.


Seeker,

If you will carefully read what I have presented - you will plainly see that I have NEVER mentioned that the Sheep & Goats Judgment is at the End of the Millennial Kingdom. I have always and plainly wrote that it is at the beginning. So I really don't understand how you are confusing this issue.
Mr Baldy
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:00 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Sorry about the delay been really busy the last few days.

Seeker, I believe that this is a common mistake that many make. Where does Scripture indicate that ALL who are Christians are Raptured at the return of Christ? This belief has been "read into".


It is not that I read it into it but rather use scriptures to come to that conclusion. Let's start with what Martha says to Jesus in John 11.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

They were discussing her brother who was in the tomb dead. Martha makes the statement that she knows he will rise again at the "last day". So Martha tells us what Jesus had taught her and she was directly addressing Jesus so He had the opportunity to correct her if what she said wasn't true. Martha tells us that the ressurection is at the "last day". Jesus did not correct her so we can presume that the resurrection is indeed on the "last day". I realize that you define the last day as 1,000 years but that really doesn't matter for this point we are discussing. John uses the phrase "last day" in several other places in his book.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Earlier in his book John states that Jesus will raise "all" which the Father has given Him on the last day. If "all" He is given is resurrected on the last day then who does that leave out?

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come to Jesus, except that the Father sends to Him and He will raise him on the last day. If no one can come to Jesus except who the Father sends then who does that leave out? This verse says He will raise him on the last day also.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

He that rejects Jesus will be judged on the last day. This shows that both the resurrection and the judgment occur on the last day or like I have been saying both groups at the same time. The "last day" is the last day everywhere John writes it in his book. That is how I determine that all who believe in Jesus are raised at the last day and all who reject Jesus are judged at the last day.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

There is no indication of a dual resurrection of the just here in Luke either. It says at THE resurrection of the just.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Here again we see ALL who are in the graves raised at the resurrection good and bad alike. Who does that leave out? This again deals with both groups at the same time as well.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So according to your premise some Christians will not be raised in the "first" resurrection and not become priests of God and Christ and not reign with Him 1,000 years. If I understand what you are saying anyway. This is why I have such a hard time following your logic it doesn't seem to match scriptures that I know of. Why are some Christians excluded from this honor? I have presented the scriptures which I feel back my viewpoint so now I ask you to provide all the scriptures you have to back up the statement that you have made.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:12 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Seeker wrote:
So we have two groups shown in the millennium from all the nations and Jewish which were not raptured and given immortal bodies. They can easily repopulate the millennium.

Oh really, so now you are saying that it is only the Jews who are given "immortal bodies" out of those two groups, and you further say that it is they that can "easily repopulate the millennium". Well, how is that so if they have immortal bodies? And at what point are they resurrected or changed?


My bad I didn't make that statement clear enough. Here is what I was trying to say.

"So we have two groups shown in the millennium from all the nations and Jewish which were not raptured and not given immortal bodies. They can easily repopulate the millennium."

The "and" I had was meant to say they were not raptured and not given immortal bodies. My apologies for not being clear there. The reason they could repopulate was that they were not raptured and since that were not raptured they were not given immortal bodies. They enter into the millennium in their mortal bodies thus can repopulate the earth. I hope that clarifys it for you.

God Bless....and I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion.


Me too :)

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:25 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

I asked you this question:



What happens to the wicked who attack the Holy City at the END of the Millennial Kingdom? (Revelation 20:9) You say that the "good and bad are gathered in the net at the same time" - and they are in that particular parable - but there is a "GATHERING" that occurs prior to a "Removal" - so you have to do something with how Scripture explains the Sheep & Goats Judgment.


You responded with:




Seeker wrote:
They are destroyed and then become part of the GWTJ. The wicked and just I speak of are alive at the return of Jesus.

There again Seeker, with your response you have a problem. You have mentioned that there is only ONE Resurrection in which the good and evil are harvested together - and Judgment ensues which provides the ultimate fate of both. Well, Scripture mentions TWO Resurrections. If those wicked who attack the Holy City at the END of the Millennial Kingdom are a part of the GWTJ - which is true - then you will also have to concede to the fact that the wicked who are alive at His Coming will be Judged as well at the GWTJ, where Scripture mentions the 2nd Resurrection occurs.


The second resurrection includes those of the millennium who were not around to be raised or judged in the first resurrection.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This group of dead are judged according to their works. Are Christians judged according to their works or according to their faith?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:59 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

You wrote - and asked this:




Seeker wrote:
How is it that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire when Satan is cast into it to join them after the 1,000 years. How did they get there?

First let me say that I believe that the "beast" is the Forth and Final Empire - and the "false prophet" is non other than the Antichrist (another topic). But did you know that The Beast and the False Prophet are the only entity/person that is cast into the Lake of Fire without Judgment? They of course as you may well know are cast into the Lake of Fire at His Coming. Satan is the only other being that is cast into the Lake of Fire without Judgment - however it is 1,000 years and "a little season" later.

I don't understand your question, or how it relates to the topic at hand concerning their entry into the Lake of Fire prior to the Millennial Reign however. So please explain.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Jesus begins to reign upon the earth at the 7th trumpet. Notice that the description includes the time of the dead, that they should be judged. That is the judgment I speak of. Rewards are given to the saints and He destroys those who destroy the earth. Again both groups together at the same judgment at the 7th trumpet judgment.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Judgment was given to them, the rest of the dead weren't raised until the second death. The judgment is the destruction of the sinners and they await the GWTJ to be tossed in with their master, Satan, at the end of the 1,000 years but the actual judgment takes place when Jesus returns to earth. The wheat/tares, sheep/goat, and net parable all show both groups dealt with in the same harvest. That also explains why those in the GWTJ are judged according to their works rather than their faith. They had no faith in Christ so have to stand on their works. God is a fair judge after all. The 7th trumpet states that the reward is given to the saints and we see that reward at the "first resurrection". The reward is that they become priests of God and reign with Him 1,000 years. That is how I see it stated in the scriptures.The 7th trumpet occurs after Armageddon which is shown in Rev 19 followed by the resurrection/reward of the saints at the beginning of the 1,000 years.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


In all these cases we see both groups present at the return of Christ just like we see in the sheep/wheat/net parables with the wicked being destroyed while the just are raptured to the Lord. The wheat and net parables give us the sequence of events. First the tares are removed in the wheat parable and the wicked are severed from among the just in the net parable. All the scriptures line up perfectly to support a Post-Wrath position as well as show why Pre-wrath does not accurately reflect what is written concerning the return of Jesus and our rapture.

Peace,
Seeker
Last edited by Seeker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:03 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Seeker,

If you will carefully read what I have presented - you will plainly see that I have NEVER mentioned that the Sheep & Goats Judgment is at the End of the Millennial Kingdom. I have always and plainly wrote that it is at the beginning. So I really don't understand how you are confusing this issue.


Like I say I was having a hard time understanding exactly what you were saying. I thought you were implying that the day of the Lord was 1,000 years long and that there was only one judgment.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:43 am

This is such a GREAT post!! Great read!!

I'm leaning more toward "after wrath" because Noah was here during God's wrath and so was Lot.
But again there's Revelation chapter 7....
If the Saints are taken out of Great Tribulation, wouldn't that be during the wrath?
Or doesn't the Bowl Judgments begin after the 3 1/2 years? (all wrath)

Much blessings!
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:56 am

Hi WOODHENOT3,

This is such a GREAT post!! Great read!!

I'm leaning more toward "after wrath" because Noah was here during God's wrath and so was Lot.
But again there's Revelation chapter 7....


Thanks I am glad you enjoyed the thread. I really don't understand why everyone has a problem with Rev 7 let me run through it again perhaps I can make it a bit clearer. To me it reads sequencial and matches other scriptures I have referenced in this thread. Post-Wrath would have Jesus return, remove the sinners, and then rapture the saints. So let's look at Rev 7 again.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

"And after these things" brings the question to mind for me of after what things? It forces us to look back to the previous text to find out what these things are. This phrase connects Rev 7 back to Rev 6. I can see no other way to understand what "after these things" would mean.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The last verse prior to Rev 7 says the great day of His wrath is come. Since Post-Wrath by definition indicates that the rapture occurs after the wrath, one would expect to find evidence of the rapture following Rev 6:17 since it says the great day of His wrath is come. So do we see a rapture following Rev 6:17?

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:9 is a picture of the saints in heaven after coming out of great tribulation. I would expect tribulation prior the wrath so now we need to back up further in Rev 6 and see if we see evidence of tribulation prior to the wrath.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Sure enough prior to the wrath of Rev 6:17 we see men in great tribulation. In this case we see the actual great tribulation. Their souls are under the altar but they are told to wait until their brethren are also killed as they were. I would classify that as great tribulation. We can verify that there is great tribulation prior to the return of Jesus in Matt 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Immediatley after the great tribulation we see the cosmic signs (sun/moon/stars darkened) and then the return of Christ. Let's compare that back to Rev 6.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Here in Rev 6 we see the exact same order of events. We have those in heaven waiting for the tribulation to end and next we see the same cosmic signs that Jesus describes in Matt 24. I mean how many times can the sun/moon/stars be darkened. This has to be the same event. Following the cosmic signs in Rev 6 we see Jesus return in wrath followed by a picture of the rapture in Rev 7:9. I guess I have seen this for so long it seems obviously clear to me. I am glad you asked about it again perhaps I have not been explaining it well enough.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Tribulation

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Cosmic signs

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Return of Jesus

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rapture

-------------

To me it is plain as day. The reason I think most can't accept it is because of the "wrath of God" in Rev 6:17 and that we are not appointed to wrath. Is being removed from the earth the only possibly way we are not appointed to wrath? Isn't it possible that God could protect His people during the outpouring of His wrath just as He did for Noah, Lot, and Israel in Egypt during the passover. In all three cases God's wrath affected only the sinners and not the saints. I believe that the God who created the Universe and everything in it could indeed protect His people just as He did in the three examples that I have given.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


How is it possible that the day of sudden destruction of the sinners (wrath of God) could overtake the brethren if they had already been raptured before that sudden destruction. It makes no sense to include that phrase if the brethren have already been raptured at that point. So like I say it all makes perfect sense to me but I have gone through it over and over many times and can't see any other way to reconcile all the scriptures besides a Post-Wrath rapture.

If the Saints are taken out of Great Tribulation, wouldn't that be during the wrath?
Or doesn't the Bowl Judgments begin after the 3 1/2 years? (all wrath)


We know that the AC causes the great tribulation. The saints are taken out by the AC/Satan so I would call that persecution. What most people do not understand is that the seals/trumpets/vials run in parallel at least to the extent that the 7th of each occurs at the same point in time. Let me show you.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Here are 4 different places showing Jesus returning to earth. The Rev 6 and Rev 11 portions both mention the wrath of God. Jesus only returns to the earth one time so all of these verses are speaking of the same set of events from different perspectives. Notice in Rev 16 that Jesus says He comes as a thief and blessed are those watching for Him and then the next verse we see Armageddon. That proves that Jesus hasn't returned prior to Armageddon which of coarse is what we see in Rev 19. Either Jesus returns 4 times or these all speak of the same set of events. Great questions by the way thanks for asking them. Let me know if you have any further questions or need me to drill down deeper on anything.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:42 pm

Hi Seeker!
Thanks so much for laying all that out! I like the way you explain this...you're very good at clarifying.... Here's my question regarding the Bowl Judgments; I thought all 7 bowls were the wrath of God being poured out, I keep on thinking how could the 7 Bowls be parallel with the 7 Seals if the Seals are not God's wrath? or am I missing something? The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls pretty much do look parallel, I would agree...I have to study this more....


Once again, thanks....
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:18 pm

Hi Seeker...now let's take a look at what you have written:

Seeker wrote:Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Here again we see ALL who are in the graves raised at the resurrection good and bad alike. Who does that leave out? This again deals with both groups at the same time as well.


Seeker - again, in what you have responded with is a classic case of "reading into" Scripture. Let's allow Scripture to speak for itself. John 5:27-29 clearly speaks of Two Resurrections. There is a Resurrection of those who have done good; IE First Resurrection - and those who have done evil; IE Second Resurrection. Scripture is very, very clear that there are Two Resurrections. The mistake that you are clearly making here is having them occur at the "same time" when it does not indicate that. Never does it say that both Resurrections occur at the same time. Not to mention, when Jesus Returns to Earth at the Sheep & Goats Judgment - the wicked are those who are ALIVE - they are NOT resurrected at that time; nor are the wicked dead Resurrected that died prior to His Return. So it is clear that the hour that is coming can clearly span over a period of time. Again, as I have mentioned before, Scripture has to be reconciled to other passages of Scripture. We just can't simply make Scripture say what we want it to say in order to fit a certain theological view.

Seeker wrote:Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. So according to your premise some Christians will not be raised in the "first" resurrection and not become priests of God and Christ and not reign with Him 1,000 years. If I understand what you are saying anyway. This is why I have such a hard time following your logic it doesn't seem to match scriptures that I know of. Why are some Christians excluded from this honor? I have presented the scriptures which I feel back my viewpoint so now I ask you to provide all the scriptures you have to back up the statement that you have made.


Seeker, I don't believe that you understand the difference between the 1st and 2nd Resurrections. The 1st Resurrection occurs before the GWTJ - and includes different occurrences in which those who belong to Christ are changed. The 1st Resurrection is also over a period of time as well - and I recall explaining this to you once before. The 1st Resurrection includes: 1) The Rapture; 2) The Two Witnesses; 3) Those who were Martyred during the Tribulation period & Those who come to Christ during the Millennial Reign - but prior to the GWTJ. This is ALL a part of the 1st Resurrection - yet they ALL occur at different intervals. This can be found in Revelation 11; and 20. Nowhere will you find that the Two Witnesses are Resurrected at the same time as those who were "Caught Up" in the Rapture - which the more and more I am studying this it HAS to be a Pre-Wrath Rapture! Nowhere will you find where those who were Martyred during the Tribulation period will be Resurrected as the same time as the Two Witnesses - nevertheless these particular Resurrections are ALL a part of the 1st Resurrection. Those who are Martyred during the Great Tribulation are described as: "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

As far as those who will be allowed into the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies - I have provided Scripture for you on that as well - so if you desire, you can go back and read that. But before you do, please remember that you have changed your response to concur that there are those who will enter in the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies - as you wrote this:

Seeker wrote:My bad I didn't make that statement clear enough. Here is what I was trying to say." So we have two groups shown in the millennium from all the nations and Jewish which were not raptured and not given immortal bodies. They can easily repopulate the millennium." The "and" I had was meant to say they were not raptured and not given immortal bodies. My apologies for not being clear there. The reason they could repopulate was that they were not raptured and since that were not raptured they were not given immortal bodies. They enter into the millennium in their mortal bodies thus can repopulate the earth. I hope that clarifys it for you.


Again Seeker, you appear to have contradicted yourself. If those Jews & others are allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom - at what point do you give them Resurrected Bodies? They have to be Believers in order to enter the Kingdom, and they do have to be given Immortal Bodies at some point to enter the New Heaven & Earth.

Now the 2nd Resurrection occurs AFTER the Millennial Reign and AFTER Satan has been let loose for a "little season" - and is for the "WICKED ONLY". The 2nd Resurrection does not span over a period of time and occurs immediately after Satan has deceived the Nations of the Earth who have been born during the Millennial Kingdom; and just prior to the GWTJ - you can read all of this in Revelation 20 as well. I'm not understanding why you're not getting this.

Seeker wrote:The second resurrection includes those of the millennium who were not around to be raised or judged in the first resurrection.


The second resurrection ALSO includes those who were "sent away to everlasting punishment" described at the Sheep & Goats Judgment in Matthew 25:46 - and is ONLY for the ALL of the Wicked Dead. You are not very clear in your aforementioned statement. You appear to believe that the 2nd Resurrection is for the Righteous who have entered the Millennial Kingdom and any offspring that they may have had. If you are saying this - then you are contradicting Scripture as those who are Resurrected at the 2nd Resurrection are not considered as "Blessed and holy" as those who participate in the 1st Resurrection are. (Revelation 20:5-6). All those who participate in the 2nd Resurrection will face the Lake of Fire - which is the "SECOND DEATH".

In Closing Seeker,

And I have mentioned this before.....in order to make your theory work - you will have to have it ALL END at Christ's Return. You can't have it both ways. You can't have a General Resurrection at the "Last Day" for both Good and Evil - then say that the "Jews & others" are allowed to keep mortal bodies and enter the Millennial Kingdom, then participate in the 2nd Resurrection that is not for them - just doesn't make sense, nor does Scripture allow for this sort of reasoning.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:34 pm

Hi WOODHENOT3,

Thanks so much for laying all that out! I like the way you explain this...you're very good at clarifying.... Here's my question regarding the Bowl Judgments; I thought all 7 bowls were the wrath of God being poured out, I keep on thinking how could the 7 Bowls be parallel with the 7 Seals if the Seals are not God's wrath? or am I missing something? The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls pretty much do look parallel, I would agree...I have to study this more....


Once again, thanks....


I appreciate your kind words thank you. I have gone through it trying to find fault so many times I can pretty well lay it out in an orderly fashion from many different perspectives and scriptures. I kind of cheat. I have found so many supporting scriptures that I pretty well assume I can fit most second coming scriptures into the theory. So I search until I find supporting scriptures knowing that they fit somehow. Every so often I make progress toward the theory with new found understanding that reinforces the rest of the scriptures I use. I know they fit so look until I find scripture to support it basically. Once we understand that the sinners are destroyed during the wrath of God it makes it easier to put the pieces together. Kind of like knowing what to look for in advance. Some time ago I realized a very significant part of the wrath. The wrath is intended to bring men to God. God sort of ratchets up the severity of the judgments as we progress through the seals/trumpet/vials with the intention of bringing men to repentance.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter introduces us to that concept in the verse above. Basically God does not want to see any man lost so delays as long as possible bringing as many to repentance as possible. We also find that concept in the trumpets and bowls/vials.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


They simply refuse to repent even knowing it is God sending the plagues. God is left with no other choice but to destroy them upon the arrival of Jesus as we see in the Noah comparisons. So I sort of view the wrath similar to the plagues Moses dispenced upon Egypt. They start out less severe and lead up to the first born of Egypt dying. I see a similar pattern in the trumpets and bowls. If we look at the seals there are some pretty severe punishments contained within them.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


We see war causing men to kill each other, famine developing, and 1/4 of the earth killed with sword, hunger, death, and with the beasts of the earth. We know this is sent from God. I don't know how else to characterize 1/4 of the earth killed besides as part of the wrath of God considering this occurs as part of the 7 seals. Remember also we have specific mention of the wrath of God twice after the 6th seal.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We see men hiding from the wrath of the Lamb so apparently they see it coming and we can verify that. I always like to have several scripture references before posting any thought on the subject. I believe the words of the bible mean exactly what they say and take them at face value for the most part. When I do that it all fits together nicely. Of coarse there are parables but in almost every case the parables are explained in an interpretation.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Men's hearts failing them from fear when they see what is coming to the earth and the powers of heaven shaken and when they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with great power and glory. This is the same scene that we see after the 6th seal from a slightly different perspective.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Interestingly the word scroll is only used twice in the bible once here in Rev 6 and the other below.

Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.


The language is nearly identical and the only other place the word scroll is used in the entire bible. It is fairly obvious in Isa 34 that we are dealing with the wrath of God. This is very strong evidence that Rev 6 is speaking of the wrath of God. Even though the word wrath is used twice in Rev 6 I still like to have several scripture references that verify that concept for me. Here is another verification from Rev 6.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

We see in Rev 6 that every mountain and island were moved out of their place. There is another place in scripture where we see very similar language.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

This occurs after they are gathered to Armageddon which is at the end of the bowl judgments. Rev 16:20 by itself could be debated but when added to Isa 34, Matthew 24 (tribulation/the 5th seal tribulation), and the cosmic signs of both Rev 6 and Matt 24 I feel it makes a very solid and scripturally backed connection between the seals and the wrath of God.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Have you ever wondered why all the tribes of earth would mourn when they see the sign of Jesus in heaven?

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all,
and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


I say it is because they see Jesus arriving with the wrath of God.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:40 pm

Seeker wrote: I thought you were implying that the day of the Lord was 1,000 years long and that there was only one judgment.


Seeker,

I do believe that the Day of the Lord includes His 1,000 year Reign - and begins at the 6th Seal (Revelation 6:12-17)

12) I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13) and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14) The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.15) Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16) They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17) For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


The Rapture of the Church occurs at this time - as we are "not appointed to wrath".

1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:24 am

You know, reading all the parables Jesus spoken, the Tares and the Wheat, the Net, wicked from the Just, etc.....it is so convincing that those in Christ will be the last standing...Jesus even brought up Noah and Lot(Luke 17) comparing to His Coming(Also the Son of Man be...). Why are Christians always looking for an escape route? If we are to trust God through the Wrath there is nothing to worry about, those in Christ will be protected...pre-wrath does not convince me, but if its pre-wrath, then I'm good, I'm ready either way. :) We will all know when we get there, be the wise virgin...:)
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:10 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:pre-wrath does not convince me


Hang it there Woody....as I believe the Truth will be revealed to you soon.

I'm just patiently waiting on Seeker's response to the apparent "holes" that are in his theory. :mrgreen:
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Exit40 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:50 am

I agree Woody. We're already covered, and should not cling to this life. It's a lot harder to do than it looks though from the day to day standpoint of living. I believe when the time comes it will be so obvious believers will know, and be glad with overwhelming joy.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:58 am

Exit40 wrote:I agree Woody. We're already covered, and should not cling to this life. It's a lot harder to do than it looks though from the day to day standpoint of living. I believe when the time comes it will be so obvious believers will know, and be glad with overwhelming joy.

God Bless You

David


God bless you too David!
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:24 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

You have been patiently waiting no doubt lol. Hope all is well with you. I would like to break your post down into topics to keep it all manageable. Let's discuss the first issue you brought up and then when we are done move on to the next and so on.

Seeker - again, in what you have responded with is a classic case of "reading into" Scripture. Let's allow Scripture to speak for itself. John 5:27-29 clearly speaks of Two Resurrections. There is a Resurrection of those who have done good; IE First Resurrection - and those who have done evil; IE Second Resurrection. Scripture is very, very clear that there are Two Resurrections. The mistake that you are clearly making here is having them occur at the "same time" when it does not indicate that. Never does it say that both Resurrections occur at the same time. Not to mention, when Jesus Returns to Earth at the Sheep & Goats Judgment - the wicked are those who are ALIVE - they are NOT resurrected at that time; nor are the wicked dead Resurrected that died prior to His Return. So it is clear that the hour that is coming can clearly span over a period of time. Again, as I have mentioned before, Scripture has to be reconciled to other passages of Scripture. We just can't simply make Scripture say what we want it to say in order to fit a certain theological view.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


The verses are pretty straight forward. All that are in the graves hear His voice.

Joh 5:28 MarvelG2296 notG3361 at this:G5124 forG3754 the hourG5610 is coming,G2064 inG1722 the whichG3739 allG3956 thatG3588 are inG1722 theG3588 gravesG3419 shall hearG191 hisG846 voice,G5456


G3956

πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
Total KJV occurrences: 1238


It says all that hear His voice will come forth. It then divides that group of all into two groups. The good and bad are separated at this point. This is shown also here in the net parable.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Here is a parable depicting the harvest of the earth in the form of a fishing net. The single net is cast into the sea and gathered of "every" kind. When the net was full they drew it to shore and sat down separating the good and the bad. Every kind, good and bad, were gathered by the net at the same time and then sorted out.

So will it be at the end of the world. The angels come forth and sever the wicked from among the just. The wicked are cast into the furnace of fire at this time. Both groups have to be present in order that the wicked could be removed from among the just. It can't happen if the good are not there at the time the wicked are gathered. Scripture very simply and straight forward describes both groups being harvested at the same time.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:57 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Mr. Baldy,You have been patiently waiting no doubt lol. Hope all is well with you.


Hi Seeker,

Just saw your response! Wow, it's certainly been a long time coming. Unfortunately, I have to go to work...
gotta go fight the bad guys! :sunshine:

I'll reply when I return home...God Willing!
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:25 pm

Hi Seeker....I'm still at work, but since I'm on my break, let's do take a look at what you have presented :mrgreen:

Seeker wrote:Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The verses are pretty straight forward. All that are in the graves hear His voice.


Did you catch what you wrote Seeker? "ALL that are in the GRAVES hear His voice".

Now the question becomes: How does this compare to what you have written - and how does it relate to those who are ALIVE at His Coming? John 5:28-29 is clearly describing those who are DEAD or they would not be in graves.

John 5:28-29 further describes an HOUR in which those who are in the graves that will hear His voice and again, the mistake that I believe you are making is trying to unite this as one General Resurrection, however, Scripture does not state this - as this HOUR can span over a period of time and be two separate events. No where does Scripture state that this HOUR - that clearly relates to the DEAD - has to happen at the same time for the Wicked Dead and the Righteous Dead.

You further wrote this:

Seeker wrote:So will it be at the end of the world. The angels come forth and sever the wicked from among the just. The wicked are cast into the furnace of fire at this time. Both groups have to be present in order that the wicked could be removed from among the just. It can't happen if the good are not there at the time the wicked are gathered. Scripture very simply and straight forward describes both groups being harvested at the same time.


Those who are severed are those who are ALIVE Seeker - the wicked people who are ALIVE are not resurrected from the grave when they hear His Voice then thrown back into Hades to await the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne Judgment. Now that wouldn't make sense.....would it?

Now your rebuttal :sunshine:
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:22 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

John 5:28-29 further describes an HOUR in which those who are in the graves that will hear His voice and again, the mistake that I believe you are making is trying to unite this as one General Resurrection, however, Scripture does not state this - as this HOUR can span over a period of time and be two separate events. No where does Scripture state that this HOUR - that clearly relates to the DEAD - has to happen at the same time for the Wicked Dead and the Righteous Dead.

Those who are severed are those who are ALIVE Seeker - the wicked people who are ALIVE are not resurrected from the grave when they hear His Voice then thrown back into Hades to await the Lake of Fire at the Great White Throne Judgment. Now that wouldn't make sense.....would it?


Can you show any other place in scripture where one hour is used to represent 1,000 years? I believe you view the resurrection of the wicked as occuring after the 1,000 years. I have seen where "day" has been used for 1,000 years but have never seen hour defined as 1,000 years.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24 also describes the resurrection both of the just and unjust. It uses "a resurrection" which is singular.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.


When Jesus shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, He will sit on the throne of His glory. All nations will be gathered and He will separate them one from another. The sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


The group on his right inherit the kingdom and the group on the left is told to depart into the everlasting fire. This occurs when Jesus arrives in glory with all His holy angels with Him as we see in Matt 25:31.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Again that is precisely what we see in all the other cases I have shown. Here we also see it in the wheat and tare parable.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Jesus sends His angels and they will gather out of it everything that offends and those who do iniquity and cast them into the furnace of fire. They are cast into the fire when Jesus returns as we see written. The sheep and goat judgment is very clear. Good and evil are gathered at the same time and there has to be a resurrection before the good are raptured. They are raptured when Jesus arrives and the wicked are tossed into the fire when Jesus arrives as well.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:50 am

Seeker wrote:Can you show any other place in scripture where one hour is used to represent 1,000 years? I believe you view the resurrection of the wicked as occuring after the 1,000 years. I have seen where "day" has been used for 1,000 years but have never seen hour defined as 1,000 years.


Hi Seeker,

You have used the term "one hour" - the Scripture that you had originally supplied: John 5:28-29 mentions "AN Hour" which is not limited to "one hour" as you have mentioned. When interpreting Scripture, we have to be very careful and look as the "specific language" that Scripture uses, instead of "reading into" Scripture - which most are guilty of.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24 also describes the resurrection both of the just and unjust. It uses "a resurrection" which is singular.


Again Seeker, in the aforementioned verses of Scripture that you quote - there is absolutely nothing that indicates that the Resurrection of the wicked dead and of the righteous dead HAS to occur at the same time. It "specifically" says: "a resurrection of the dead" - which is as you mentioned is "singular". However, it goes on to qualify the meaning of each individual Resurrection, in that there is "a resurrection for the just" and "a resurrection" for the unjust. These are Two Individual Resurrections that according to Scripture do not happen at the same time.

Seeker wrote:When Jesus shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, He will sit on the throne of His glory. All nations will be gathered and He will separate them one from another. The sheep on His right and the goats on His left.


Seeker, the aforementioned verses that you mention further prove my point. The Nations that are gathered before Christ are those Nations who are ALIVE at His Coming. This is the Sheep and Goats Judgment. The wicked ALIVE are cast into the "holding cell" called Hades to await the GWTJ - which occurs 1,000 and a "little season" later. Scripture is clear about this. After the "little season" is over ALL of the Wicked Dead are Resurrected - and cast into the Lake of Fire.

Seeker wrote:Jesus sends His angels and they will gather out of it everything that offends and those who do iniquity and cast them into the furnace of fire. They are cast into the fire when Jesus returns as we see written. The sheep and goat judgment is very clear. Good and evil are gathered at the same time and there has to be a resurrection before the good are raptured. They are raptured when Jesus arrives and the wicked are tossed into the fire when Jesus arrives as well.


Seeker, let me break this down to you as "Understanding the "Day of the Lord" is extremely important to those who seek Christ.

What you are describing applies to those who are ALIVE at His Coming - only the Righteous Dead are accompanying Jesus at His Return, which is considered the 1st Resurrection. If the World Ends completely when Jesus Returns, then you have a very serious problem with reconciling everything that you have written, and with Scripture - in that there would be no Millennial Reign of Christ - and you would have to admit that the Great White Throne Judgment and the Sheep & Goats Judgment are one and the same. You have indicated that they are separate Judgments in your previous comments so therefore you have a very serious problem with your theory.

The Sheep & Goats Judgment is very different and a separate Judgment from the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ).
When Jesus Returns - only the Righteous Dead are Resurrected at that Point; so basically, after this particular Resurrection He deals primarily with those who are ALIVE at His Return who are in MORTAL BODIES - both the Wicked who are Alive, and those who will be allowed to enter His Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth.

I know that we've discussed this before. You have continued to come back with the same responses - which cannot be supported with Scripture, and your have repeatedly contradicted yourself with the very passages of Scripture that you supply for your argument. So here it is in a nutshell:

Jesus Christ will Return AFTER the Tribulation of those Days. He will gather the Elect unto Him in the clouds - the dead first then the living - these Believers will be in Resurrected Bodies upon His Return. When His Feet touch the Mt of Olives, it will split from East to West and Israel and those nations who have come against Israel and have survived will flee to Jesus - these will be those who will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom; and subsequently repopulate the Earth during this time period.

Now, there are 6 requirements that must be fulfilled in order to bring in the Earth into it's Eternal State - and the purpose for the Millennial Reign of Christ. They are as follows:

1) To Finish the Transgression
2) To make an End to Sin
3) To make an Atonement for Iniquity
4) To bring in Everlasting Righteousness
5) To Seal up vision and prophecy
6) To Anoint the Most Holy Place

These 6 aforementioned Events are "Decreed" to be the Completion of the 70th Week. (Daniel 9:24-27)

We know from Scripture that when Christ Returns - a portion of those 6 mentioned requirements will NOT have been fulfilled - as there will be sin, death, and rebellion in the Millennial Kingdom. Satan is let loose from his prison AFTER the completion of the Millennial Reign - and allowed to deceive the Nations for a "little season". So in accordance with Scripture, I don't believe that the 70th week is OVER until the Day of the Lord has been completed.

The Day of the Lord will NOT be completed until Christ has destroyed the last enemy - which is DEATH. This occurs AFTER the Millennial Reign of Christ; AFTER the "little season" Satan has been allowed to deceive the Nations; and AFTER the Final Gog/Magog War has been accomplished. At which time the Day of the Lord is OVER.

Jesus Christ our Lord then hands the Kingdom over to God the Father - so that God may be "All in All".
(1 Corinthians 15:20-28)


I will post 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - as it lists the "Order of Resurrections" - and for your understanding:

The Order of Resurrections

20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21) For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24) then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He must Reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27) For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28) When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, So that God may be All in All.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:26 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Hi Seeker,

You have used the term "one hour" - the Scripture that you had originally supplied: John 5:28-29 mentions "AN Hour" which is not limited to "one hour" as you have mentioned. When interpreting Scripture, we have to be very careful and look as the "specific language" that Scripture uses, instead of "reading into" Scripture - which most are guilty of.


Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 24 also describes the resurrection both of the just and unjust. It uses "a resurrection" which is singular.

Again Seeker, in the aforementioned verses of Scripture that you quote - there is absolutely nothing that indicates that the Resurrection of the wicked dead and of the righteous dead HAS to occur at the same time. It "specifically" says: "a resurrection of the dead" - which is as you mentioned is "singular". However, it goes on to qualify the meaning of each individual Resurrection, in that there is "a resurrection for the just" and "a resurrection" for the unjust. These are Two Individual Resurrections that according to Scripture do not happen at the same time.


Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

I have enlarged the scripture reference and it says "the hour" not "an hour". So not sure where you got "an" from. Also note that it says "all" that are in the graves hear His voice. All in the graves would include sinners and saints would it not? There is "a" resurrection of the dead. It does not indicate a plurality of resurrections but rather a singular resurrection of the dead.

In Acts 24 "a" resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. The both ties just and unjust to "a resurrection". There is "a" resurrection both of just and unjust. The grammar in the sentence does not support two resurrections but rather one. There is "a" resurrection which includes the just and the unjust, Pretty simple just read the words as they are written. The comma ties the second half of the sentence to the first half so there is "a" resurrection, both of just and unjust.

If it said what you claim it says it would have to use the plural form of resurrection which is resurrections. But it does not say resurrrections it says resurrection.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Here again we see two groups that came out of "a" resurrection mentioned in the verse above. All (just and unjust) in the graves hear His voice.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:05 am

Hi Seeker,

Well, I see that it took you exactly 7 Months to respond to my answer.........nevertheless, welcome back!

Seeker wrote:Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, I have enlarged the scripture reference and it says "the hour" not "an hour". So not sure where you got "an" from. Also note that it says "all" that are in the graves hear His voice. All in the graves would include sinners and saints would it not? There is "a" resurrection of the dead. It does not indicate a plurality of resurrections but rather a singular resurrection of the dead. In Acts 24 "a" resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. The both ties just and unjust to "a resurrection". There is "a" resurrection both of just and unjust. The grammar in the sentence does not support two resurrections but rather one. There is "a" resurrection which includes the just and the unjust, Pretty simple just read the words as they are written. The comma ties the second half of the sentence to the first half so there is "a" resurrection, both of just and unjust. If it said what you claim it says it would have to use the plural form of resurrection which is resurrections. But it does not say resurrections it says resurrection. Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Here again we see two groups that came out of "a" resurrection mentioned in the verse above. All (just and unjust) in the graves hear His voice.


Seeker here is what the NASB says in John: 5:28-29 :

John 5:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment


So to answer your question that is where I got the "an" from - directly from SCRIPTURE.

But nevertheless "a"; "an"; "it"; "that"; "tomato"; "tamato"; "potato"; "patato" - it's ALL saying the same THING. What you have failed to realize is that the "hour" that is mentioned can absolutely span over a period of time - and as a matter of fact in indeed does.

You see, you want to have it both ways: You want to have a Millennial Kingdom - which certainly requires a Resurrection of the DEAD upon it's completion - and you want to have a GENERAL RESURRECTION for both the Righteous and Unrighteous at the same time. Well it won't work - at least not according to Scripture.

If you believe in a GENERAL RESURRECTION for the Righteous & Unrighteous - THEN you must completely rule out a Millennial Reign of Christ - and reconcile your method of interpretation to mean that it ALL ENDS when Christ APPEARS.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:04 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Well, I see that it took you exactly 7 Months to respond to my answer.........nevertheless, welcome back!


Well isn't that funny exactly to the day didn't realize that lol. It has been that long since I have been to this site. I usually only pop in when I see major Turkey news out there so come here to check the Turkey thread for insights from the Turkey thread gang.

Seeker here is what the NASB says in John: 5:28-29 :


I figured you were using a different translation but wasn't sure which one thanks for the info. Strong's allows for both interpretations.

Joh 5:28 MarvelG2296 notG3361 at this:G5124 forG3754 the hourG5610 is coming,G2064 inG1722 the whichG3739 allG3956 thatG3588 are inG1722 theG3588 gravesG3419 shall hearG191 hisG846 voice,G5456

ὥρα
hōra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108


But nevertheless "a"; "an"; "it"; "that"; "tomato"; "tamato"; "potato"; "patato" - it's ALL saying the same THING. What you have failed to realize is that the "hour" that is mentioned can absolutely span over a period of time - and as a matter of fact in indeed does.


True it can so how can we tell? We have to use the context surrounding the phrase. Again I point you back to the context.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Who do you believe "all" that are in the graves refers to?

Peace Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:08 pm

Hi Seeker,

Seeker wrote:Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Who do you believe "all" that are in the graves refers to?


Seeker again, "the hour" is coming - as I mentioned, this hour can span over a period of time. Nowhere in does Scripture ever indicated that this has to occur at the exact same time.

Have you ever noticed that this particular passage of Scripture as well as Daniel 12:2 NEVER mentions that the DEAD in the graves who hear the Voice of Jesus occurs at the exact same time?

Have you ever questioned why these passages of Scripture ONLY refer to the DEAD?
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:33 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

You are making an argument from silence basically.

...."Thus in historical analysis with an argument from silence, the absence of a reference to an event or a document is used to cast doubt on the event not mentioned.[4] While most historical approaches rely on what an author's works contain, an argument from silence relies on what the book or document does not contain.[4] This approach thus uses what an author "should have said" rather than what is available in the author's extant writings.[4][5]

An argument from silence may apply to a document only if the author was expected to have the information, was intending to give a complete account of the situation, and the item was important enough and interesting enough to deserve to be mentioned at the time.[6][7]

Arguments from silence, based on a writer's failure to mention an event, are distinct from arguments from ignorance which rely on a total "absence of evidence" and are widely considered unreliable; however arguments from silence themselves are also generally viewed as rather weak in many cases; or considered as fallacies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:15 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Have you ever questioned why these passages of Scripture ONLY refer to the DEAD?


Yes that is simple to be resurrected you have to be dead.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The dead in Christ rise first in the resurrection and then those alive are raptured and transformed while living. So the living would not be discussed in connection with a resurrection.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


This parable talks about the resurrection. A net is cast and all kinds are gathered. One net not two nets. When it was full they were all hauled to the shore. Then the good and bad were separated. Jesus interprets the parable and says that So shall it be at the end of the world. The angels will come forth and sever the wicked from among the good. To sever the wicked from among the good both groups must be present in the net just as the parable shows us. One net one resurrection.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:43 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Have you ever questioned why these passages of Scripture ONLY refer to the DEAD?


Seeker wrote:Yes that is simple to be resurrected you have to be dead.


Seeker, Seeker.........I know the meaning of what it is to be resurrected. I was not asking for the meaning, as it can be multi-faceted. Scripture identifies and mentions the DEAD only as it relates to John 5:28-29. My question to you asked have you ever question WHY it only mentions the DEAD?

However you mention this:

Seeker wrote:The dead in Christ rise first in the resurrection and then those alive are raptured and transformed while living. So the living would not be discussed in connection with a resurrection.


Let me say that I am glad that you have used the word "transformed" - as being transformed is a form of a Resurrection as well. This is the First Resurrection - therefore your aforementioned comment about the "living not being discussed in a resurrection" is in error.

Scripture identifies a FIRST RESURRECTION: Revelation 20:4-6 - NASB

4) Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the First Resurrection. 6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the
First Resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Now before I comment on the aforementioned passage of Scripture, I want to mention this that you wrote:

Seeker wrote: One net one resurrection.


Seeker, there is clearly more than "one resurrection". I have plainly provided Revelation 20:4-6 which is giving an illustration of what is occurring AFTER Christ has returned to Earth at His 2nd Coming - and Satan is bound 1,000 years. Those Righteous Dead "came to life" as a part of the FIRST RESURRECTION. Verse 5 goes on to say that "the REST of the DEAD did not come to life" until AFTER the completion of the 1,000 year Reign of Christ.

So, there is very CLEARLY more than one Resurrection. You have stated that in order to be "resurrected you have to be dead". The "rest of the DEAD" furthermore refers to the WICKED who will come to life - (or be resurrected) at the
GWTJ - AFTER the 1,000 Reign of Christ has been completed.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:46 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

There are two parables in Matt 13 that clearly show just one resurrection. Here they are one more time.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


In the net parable it is very clear that both good and bad are gathered in the same net and the wheat/tares parable plainly says Let "BOTH" grow together until the harvest. Then at the harvest the angels first remove the tares.

Clear plain language used in both parables. Both sinners and saints are harvested in one resurrection not two separate resurrections. While I have been very accomadating and allowed debate in this non debate area there is nothing left to be said in this case we just disagree. I will no longer debate this issue in this thread with you so ask kindly that you cease debating in this thread.

Thanks,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:32 pm

Resurrection/Rapture

I would like to take some time and summarize the evidence for both sinners and saints being included in the first resurrection at the return of Jesus to this earth. There is evidence of both groups present in many of the accounts of the return of Jesus and our gathering to Him. Different accounts provide different information. Just because some information isn't in an account of the resurrection does not mean that information isn't part of the resurrection.

Scripture often repeats accounts of events from different perspectives. The 4 gospels are a prime example. None of the 4 are identical yet they all describe the same life of Jesus. We must take all the information in all the different accounts and combine them to get the true full picture. I often think of it like a jigsaw puzzle. The puzzle is not complete until the last piece is put into place.

We can certainly see the picture forming as we assemble the pieces but we can't see the entire picture until all the pieces are in place. I certainly make no claims of seeing the full picture that scripture lays out but the more pieces I assemble allows me to get a more reasonable idea of what the big picture is.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we see the rapture of the elect at the return of Jesus. The aren't many details concerning the rapture here just that the angels gather the elect from the earth. This verse could represent one of our edge pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. It is typically easiest to assemble the edge pieces first because there is a distinct flat side to them making it easy to identify. The puzzle becomes much easier to assemble once we have all the edge pieces in place.

Now our task is to find the adjacent adjoining edge pieces to the rapture. The rapture is spoken of in great detail in a couple of places in scripture. Those places give us a pile of edge pieces to work with. So let's go and take a look at the relevant scriptures concerning the actual rapture. It is critical to understand the rapture because it is linked closely to the resurrection of the saints.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Paul never uses the word "rapture" but does explain the idea of what we call the rapture in the verse that I have enlarged above. The elect who are alive and remain are caught up to be ever with the Lord. That is the rapture. Notice the verse just prior to the rapture verse tells us that the dead in Christ will rise first: then we who are alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord.

The dead in Christ rising is the resurrection of the elect. So what Paul is telling us here is that before we are raptured there will be a resurrection. This allows us to connect the resurrection edge piece to the rapture edge piece. Technically we should start with the resurrection edge piece first but we do not learn that the resurrection and rapture are related until we read 1Th 4.

This basic connection allows us to understand that when we see scripture related to the rapture that the resurrection of the saints occurs there also just before the rapture whether it is written or not. This is very important to keep in mind. Regardless of when we believe the rapture is there must be the resurrection of the saints before that time.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Paul talks about the resurrection in 1Co 15 in great detail. From what we have just learned we also know that the rapture occurs here following the resurrection even though it is not mentioned. Paul plainly states that there is an order to the resurrection. Christ was the first resurrected as the first fruits. Next Paul tells us that afterward they that are Christ's when He returns. Makes sense because we started in Matthew 24 where we see the rapture at the return of Jesus.

Since the rapture occurs in Matt 24, we know that the resurrection also occurs in Matt 24 just prior to the rapture even though it is not mentioned in Matt 24. 1Co 15 verifies that the resurrection and rapture occur when Christ returns because they can't be separated according to 1Th 4. Scripture interprets scripture. Everywhere we see the resurrection of the dead in Christ we can be sure that the rapture follows it. This is a big key in understanding the timing
of the return of the Lord and the resurrection/rapture. All we really have to do is to look at scripture references to the elect resurrection and know that the rapture is there also whether it is spoken of or not.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:39 pm

Resurrection/Rapture Timing

So let's take a look at some scriptures that reference the resurrection. A keyword search of the bible for the word resurrection yields many results. For now I want to focus on those that seem to indicate timing.

Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day

Martha indicates that the resurrection occurs on what she calls the last day. In the context of this verse Jesus does not correct her concerning her last day reference so I take what she says to be accurate. Defining the "last day" is another subject I will address later but for now we have another puzzle piece to connect to the resurrection puzzle piece. Martha connects the resurrection to the "last day" so next let's search for the phrase "last day".

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


There are clearly many scripture references connecting the resurrection to the "last day". We can be sure Martha was correct that the resurrection is indeed on the last day. As we know from what we have learned, the rapture is also connected to this "last day" because the resurrection and rapture are connected by 1Th 4. So the resurrection/rapture cannot occur until at least the "last day". Let's see if we can find puzzle pieces that verify that hypothesis for us.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Here in Rev 20:4 we see the resurrection of the saints who live and reign with Christ during the 1,000 years. This resurrection takes place just before the 1,000 years begins. We can verify that also because of what we see in the previous chapter.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


We see Armageddon in Rev 19 just prior to the resurrection/rapture. That sets the timing for us because we can determine when Armageddon occurs from Rev 16.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done


We see that Armageddon is staged just before the 7th vial judgment so that tells us Rev 19 occurs just before the 7th vial judgment. After Armageddon we have the beginning of the millennium and Rev 20:4 occurs after Rev 19. This verifies that indeed the resurrection/rapture takes place on the "last day" before the millennium.

We also know from Matt 24 that when Jesus returns He sends His angels to rapture the elect. If the timing our puzzle pieces have given us is correct then we should see the return of Jesus sometime before the resurrection/rapture of Rev 20:4.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


And indeed here we see Jesus leaving heaven on a white horse followed by the armies of heaven just before Armageddon which occurs just before the 7th vial judgment. So another perfectly fitting puzzle piece. We can further verify the timing from Rev 16.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Jesus is described as coming as a thief and blessed is he that watches. This occurs just before Armageddon as we see in Rev 19-20 as well. All these puzzles pieces fit neatly with one another. You don't have to try to force the fit they slide right together. In the next post I will further this proof as well as start to identify who is present at this time on earth.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:05 pm

Seeker wrote:While I have been very accomadating and allowed debate in this non debate area there is nothing left to be said in this case we just disagree. I will no longer debate this issue in this thread with you so ask kindly that you cease debating in this thread.


Hi Seeker,

This Thread concerns the Post Tribulation Rapture - which I am not in opposition of. You have had no arguments from me whatsoever as it relates to a Post Tribulation Rapture. By the way it is NOT up to you to decide whether or not to "allow" something as far as what it being discussed on any particular issue - that is the Moderators Job.

Perhaps the very Subject of "Understanding the "day of the Lord" should have been place in the debate section from the very beginning, as you have made an "Assumption" that it relates to this Post Tribulation Section of this Forum by placing it here.

I guess it's really a hard pill to swallow when the very Scriptures you present totally contradict everything you have written as it relates to the Subject matter at had. You see Seeker, you simply can have Scripture plainly mention an order of Resurrections - then you, in your own interpretation, come in and present something that is totally against Doctrine - and all you have to do is READ what you have written. As a matter of fact, anyone who has read what you have written can clearly see the errors, and contradictions.

In closing, I too will no longer discuss this matter with you - because if you cannot see that your very own writing plainly contradicts what's written in Scripture - then there is absolutely nothing more to discuss. You just simply cannot have One General Resurrection and a Millennial Kingdom of Christ - one would certainly cancel out the other.

Also, I hope that I never get to the point in my life where I am so full of PRIDE that I cannot admit when I am in error, and someone else just may be right. I will fight tooth and nail to expose any FALSE TEACHING to the best of my ability for as long as I live.

Peace to you Seeker.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:53 pm

Resurrection/Rapture Timing Cont.

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Jesus's disciples were sort of bragging about the temple to Jesus when He informed them that the temple would be literally thrown to the ground, stone by stone. Of course that got their attention so they asked Jesus two questions. When will that happen and what sign will there be when that happens? Jesus begins a long description that contains some key timing information concerning His return.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Immediately after the tribulation of those days we have a series of cosmic signs followed by Jesus arriving in the clouds of heaven and then the rapture of the saints. If we can determine when the tribulation begins and know how long it lasts then we can know approximately when the cosmic signs occur. Jesus returns following the cosmic signs so we can get a ballpark figure of when that occurs. We are not given any length of time for the cosmic signs so can't know precisely when Jesus returns. Jesus gives us the clue in Matthew 24:15 that allows us to determine the details about the tribulation.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Jesus refers us to Daniel to understand the AOD which starts the tribulation and when that happens.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The AOD occurs around the middle of the last 7 years as we see here in Dan 9:27. So let's say somewhere near year 3.5 of the last 7 years. To find out how long the tribulation is we need to go to Daniel 7.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


The AC makes war with and overcomes the saints for 3 1/2 years. After that the kingdom is given to the saints.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

So now we know how long the tribulation is and when it starts. It starts ~3.5 year mark so when we add the 3.5 years to that and we get ~7 year mark or the end of the last 7 years. That gets us to the beginning of the cosmic signs. The cosmic signs last for an unspecified amount of time and then Jesus returns followed by the resurrection/rapture. As you can see, the resurrection/rapture is very, very near the end of the last 7 years. This piece of the puzzle fits what we learned from Rev 16. Jesus returns just before the battle of Armageddon and the 7th vial judgment which would also be at the very end of the last 7 years following Armageddon. It also fits with what we see in Rev 19 with Jesus on the white horse heading to the earth for the battle of Armageddon.

We have seen the resurrection described as being on the "last day". The description above gets us as close to the last day as I can practically imagine. There is no interpretation here just a comprehensive gathering of related scripture puzzle pieces which clearly show that the resurrection/rapture cannot occur until sometime around the 7th vial judgment.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:13 am

If we are to understand the Millennial Reign of Christ we must also understand that there will be those who are alive at the Coming of Christ who will be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. We already know that Christ will Return with those who have been Raptured. So the question becomes - why is there a necessity to "separate the Sheep from the Goats"? Well the only plausible explanation is that we have those who will still be alive at His Coming - both the righteous and wicked. The Millennial Kingdom will be re-populated by those who have been allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. Their offspring are the one's whom Satan will deceive and further send to attack the city of Jerusalem after he is let loose for "a little season" - which occurs AFTER the 1,000 year Rein of Christ is over.(Revelation 20:7-10)


I agree



RT
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:38 am

Day of the Lord

Now that we have established the timing of the ressurection/rapture to be very near the 7th vial judgment it should be obvious that the saints endure nearly the entire last 7 years. No early departures. This means that the Saints and Sinners are both dealt with at the same time which is during the return of Jesus near the 7th vial judgment at Armageddon. No question the sinners are dealt with at Armageddon with the AC and FP being tossed into the Lake of Fire. So the puzzle pieces we need to find would show the saints present during the wrath upon the sinners.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Paul is teaching about the return of Jesus. When the sinners say peace and safety sudden destruction comes upon them and they do not escape. I would say sudden destruction qualifies as the wrath of God especially in light of the fact it is referred to as the DOTL coming as a thief in the night. We have the thief reference in Rev 16 just before Armageddon we have already looked at. So this matches what we have already learned. Notice the "ye, brethren" are told they are not in the dark so that day won't overtake them as a thief. There is no reason to say that unless the brethren are there during that day.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Jesus describes His second coming as in the days of Noah and Lot. In both cases the sinners were destroyed on the same day as the saints were rescued. Both groups dealt with on the same day.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Here we see when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels it is in flaming fire taking vengeance on sinners who will be punished with everlasting destruction. This matches Rev 19 and Rev 16 accounts where the sinners are judged upon the arrival of Jesus. Jesus is also glorified in His saints in that day. Again two groups present with the judgment of the sinners.

Mat 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Here we see the sinners removed at the harvest leaving the wheat to inherit the kingdom. Both are to grow together until the harvest where they are separated. All things that offend are removed leaving the saints in the kingdom. Both groups are dealt with at the same time in all these examples.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


One net was cast and gathered of every kind. When it was full it was hauled to shore where the good and bad were separated so again both groups.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


All tribes of the earth mourn and the elect raptured. Two groups here as well.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


When Jesus arrives with all His holy angels...sheep and goats two groups once again. There seems to be two groups associated with the return of Christ in most cases where we see His return. The net parable says it very clearly. The angels will come forth and sever the wicked from among the just. The just obviously have to be there for the wicked to be removed from among them. Jesus returns before the 7th vial judgment at Armageddon and deals with both sheep and goats; removing the goats/wicked/tares.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Seeker on Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:34 am

Day of the Lord Cont.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


Paul connects the return of Jesus to the phrase "day of the Lord". This is a very important puzzle piece. We know that the DOTL is a phrase that is used to describe the wrath of God in the OT. We see Paul using it in that context as well with the sudden destruction of unbelievers associated with it.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Peter also connects the return of Christ to the day of wrath where the very elements melt with fervent heat. The return of Jesus is a return in wrath dispensed upon the unbelievers.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The return of Jesus is what we read as the "day of the Lord" in the OT. This connection allows us to get a whole box full of new puzzle pieces. Once we understand this then it is much easier to understand the resurrection/rapture. The first order of business during the return of Christ is removal of the unbelievers. We see that illustrated in 2Th 1:7 when Jesus is revealed from heaven it is in flaming fire taking vengeance upon the unbelievers.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


The reference to "whom they have pierced" is a reference to Jesus in Zechariah's account of the Lord saving Israel during the day of the Lord.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


Here again we see Jesus depicted in OT day of the Lord references. The general overview of most day of the Lord descriptions include the Lord returning and fighting for Israel in the land of Israel; defeating her enemies with Israel returning to the Lord for ever after reigning from Jerusalem. There is also massive "wrath of God" type events contained within these accounts. The return of Jesus and the OT day of the Lord are one and the same which allows us to use the OT accounts to understand further details regarding the return of Christ.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:14 pm

After the Evil Goats are sentenced - it is at that point the angels are sent by Christ to "take out " those who are wicked and cast them into the furnace of fire to await the Great White Throne Judgment, in which the 2nd Resurrection occurs. Please notice that "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are described there - therefore this cannot be the "Lake of Fire" but Hades - where "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are described, and the Wicked dead go after they die to await the 2nd Resurrection at the GWTJ. Weeping and gnashing of teeth are NOT described there, as Death and Hell are cast into it - which is the FINAL DEATH. The Good Sheep or wheat are allowed to enter the Kingdom or barn.


Hm.. someone recently accused me of reading into scripture....Your "proof" is not valid evidence; just because weeping and gnashing of teeth are not described in Revelation 20 does not mean it isn't happening in the lake of fire. "Furnace of fire" in the parable could most certainly be a reference to the lake of fire in Rev 20. The wicked go into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, it doesn't end in the lake of fire, it continues....forever.

RT
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