Post-Wrath

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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:38 am

Seeker wrote:I have never claimed that one bit of the wrath is upon the saints. To be consistant with scripture though the tares are removed first so we have to be present when the tares are removed by the wrath. We will witness the wrath but not be affected by it.


Hi Seeker,

That's what I understood Mrs. B to say.....hence my Amen.
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Seeker on Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:50 am

Hi Abiding,

Yes I understand but this is an ongoing conversation concerning the eagles flying people out of harms way which is simply not the case as shown in scripture. Nowhere in scripture are the saints shown removed from tribulation or trouble.

Luke 17:34....I tell you in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35///Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken and the other left.
36...Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left...
37...And they answered and said unto him....WHERE, Lord?
And he said unto them, Wheresoever the Body is, thither will the Eagles be Gathered Together......


Mrs. B seemed to be implying that we are taken but the scriptures show that the sinners are taken not the saints. That is my point. Yes we aren't appointed to wrath but no we won't be taken away from the trouble, tribulation, or wrath. The implication that I see in the quote above is that somehow we are taken by eagles when it is the sinners who are being taken in the scripture not the saints.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Tevye on Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:16 am

Seeker wrote:Yes I understand but this is an ongoing conversation concerning the eagles flying people out of harms way which is simply not the case as shown in scripture. Nowhere in scripture are the saints shown removed from tribulation or trouble.

Hello Seeker,
I may not have been clear on my perspective of the eagles message.

I'm not seeing eagles as taking anyone anywhere.

What I am seeing is a message from the Lord
telling us that when that time has come
(the time of great tribulation)
that He is telling us where... we should look to go to.

Where the eagles gather...
... is where we are to look for where the body of Christ
on Earth will be, the place for us to go to and find them there.
(a refuge of the Lord in the midst of great tribulation)

The mystery of that message is the place or the where, that it will be.
Last edited by Tevye on Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:18 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Abiding,

Yes I understand but this is an ongoing conversation concerning the eagles flying people out of harms way which is simply not the case as shown in scripture. Nowhere in scripture are the saints shown removed from tribulation or trouble.


OK, thanks for clarifying. I'm in agreement with you.
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Tevye on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:21 am

Mrs. B wrote:There is a difference between Tribulation and Wrath......

Tribulation causes us to grow......tribulations is troubles.....
God allows to go through tribulations to cause us to grow.....to cause us to Turn to Him and seek Him for a deeper
relation......
We may loose our homes....but Jesus will teach us that He is our dwelling Place....ect....we could go on and on about troubles.....Behold you shal have Tribulations but be of good cheer I have over come the world...
We have to look to Jesus....Each one must look to Him.....He is our Keeper and deliver
and He will not allow us to be tempted or tested more then we are able......
You can totaly trust Him....I will never leave you nor forsake you...

:a3: ...well said Mrs. B.
I completely agree with you. :grin:
Thank you for sharing!
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Mrs. B on Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:22 pm

Post-Wrath....

Isaiah 40:28....Hast thou not known?
has thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth...Fainteth Not, neither is weary?
there is no searching of His Understanding...

29...He giveth Power to the Faint: and to them that have no might he increaseth strength...
30...Even the youths shall faint and be weary...and the young men shall utterly fall:

31...BUT They that WAIT upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
they shall Mount Up with Wings as Eagles;
They shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint....

Teach me Lord, Teach me Lord, to Wait

be still and Know that I AM God....


Phillip was caught up after he baptized the Ethiopian, an eunuch of great authority....
Acts 8:39....And when they were come up out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing,
40...But Philip was found...at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities....

Philip was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord.....it was not raptured.....but Elijah was caught up, even Jesus was caught up to a high mountain..11 Cor 12:2....Paul writes I knew a man that was caught up to the thrid heaven.....Rev.12:5....Caught up......we also who are alive...will be caught up....to meet the Lord in the Air...

At the Ressurrection we that remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the Air.......there are other scriptures that teaching about a catching away...or caught up
There was a Baptist minister in another country.....was traveling to village came to a river in flood stage....knelt down to pray....about how he was going to get across....when he opened his eyes he was on the other side....I believe that
t God can catch us away if necessary....this is not what is called the rapture....but a catching away from one loaction to another....

two in a bed...one taken the other left? Ressurrection? or a catching away?


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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Tevye on Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:10 pm

Mrs. B wrote:Phillip was caught up after he baptized the Ethiopian, an eunuch of great authority....
Acts 8:39....And when they were come up out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing,
40...But Philip was found...at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities....

Philip was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord.....it was not raptured.....but Elijah was caught up, even Jesus was caught up to a high mountain..11 Cor 12:2....Paul writes I knew a man that was caught up to the thrid heaven.....Rev.12:5....Caught up......we also who are alive...will be caught up....to meet the Lord in the Air...

At the Ressurrection we that remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the Air.......there are other scriptures that teaching about a catching away...or caught up
There was a Baptist minister in another country.....was traveling to village came to a river in flood stage....knelt down to pray....about how he was going to get across....when he opened his eyes he was on the other side....I believe that
t God can catch us away if necessary....this is not what is called the rapture....but a catching away from one loaction to another....

two in a bed...one taken the other left? Ressurrection? or a catching away?


Mrs. B

A very interesting concept Mrs. B.
I imagine that it would be possible in the midst of great tribulation
that this could happen. I suppose it would be quite a surprise for some.
I imagine that those who experienced what they did as you noted above
had no idea that they would be traveling from one place to another
via a Spirit of the Lord express.... and only realized that it did happen
when all was said and done.

Something to ponder upon.
:thinking:
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Exit40 on Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:09 am

Hi Lisa. I read that paper, a bit scholarly but I got through it OK. I think there is some confusion there about the where and when, and why the eagles gather. My understanding is the eagles gather for the great supper of the Lord, Armageddon, and all the other battles which will be fought nearly simultaneously, at the end, explaining the why and when. Following the Lord's victories the eagles gather to feast on the carcasses of those slain. I don't believe the context of the eagles, Luke 17:37, lends itself to those fleeing are to gather where the eagles are, as in this is the place where the woman is protected in the wilderness. There is an order of events here, first is where are the bodies, the carcasses ? No mention of the Church, the elect, the Faithful here, but the carcasses and bodies are defined here as dead animals and men. That narrows it down some as to who. Second in order, that is where the eagles will gather, post slaughter, as this is where the great supper is. In this context, these are not the eagles that are involved with the woman fleeing into the wilderness to be protected under the Lord's wings, as in the eagle that went forth and brought the people out of Egypt, a symbolic statement. This is the woman fleeing post AOD. The woman is helped out by the great eagle with two wings at this point, Rev 12:14. I have a question here, short aside. Why would this great eagle need to be mentioned as having two wings ? An eagle with only one, or no wings is of no use, so there must be a special meaning for the two wings. Or there might be a special meaning. At any rate it is only one great eagle in Rev 12 helping the woman, as opposed to the many carrion eating eagles gathering in Luke 17. Big difference, and I cannot see how it is possible to connect the two situations. Just my humble opinion here.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:14 pm

Post-Wrath....


Vulture...any of various large raptorial birds that are related to the hawks, eagles, and falcons...but have weaker claws and the head usu. naked and that subsist chielfy or entirely on Carrion...
Carrion....dead and putrefying flesh; also flesh unfit for food.....

there are two birds....The Eagle that only eats that which has the blood...the life
There vulture....eats that which is dead and putrefied.....that which is flesh unfit for food....

A Christian eats that which is alive....The Living Word....The life is in the Blood....without the shedding of blood
there is no life.....Our Life is in Jesus....We have a New Blood Covenant with Him...He is our life

the false church....is dead.....spiritually dead....it eats that which is tridition.....it has no life....it is like a vulture...if you are in a church and it is dead.....you seek for a church where there is life......Jesus

The Eagle has to have the life...the blood......

There is the body of Christ....it has the Life, the Spirit, and the Blood...
Tridition is dead.....it has no life.....it is dead....it stinks.....when we are born again....we seek The Life...where the word is alive.....fresh....present truth....not tridition.....

not dead doctrine....
we eat that which is flesh, alive filled with life......We are Made a live in Him.....we eat that which is fresh...and alive...


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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:28 pm

Wow, the discussions and revelations in this thread are genuinely uplifting and so appreciated. David, thank you so much for reading that article and mentioning a few things that stood out to you. The Word is amazing, it truly is.
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Tevye on Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:01 am

"You Are My Hiding Place" - (((videolink)))

I have often wondered why....why would something so strange as vultures and carcasses be right there
right in the middle of (this) message, until it dawned on me, that it's not so strange...
because the vultures are meant to be eagles, and carcass can be translated as body...
giving the strange vulture and carcass message a complete makeover.
(from a meassage of death, to a meassage of life, (hope) and deliverance)

I believe the whole reason for the existence of the Olivette Discourse was a response from the Lord
of the disciples desire to know when Jesus would be coming back for them,
and they wanted to know where, where should they be to meet Him as He is coming for them.
Just as they asked Him in the begining of the message (what) would be the sign..
they also asked Him in Luke 17....(where, Lord?)
Where should we be, (where) should we go? ...when the appointed time has come.

Armageddon, and the other events of the judgements (trumpets) and wrath (bowls)
were not addressed to the disciples here, because they would not be here to experience them.

The eagles reference in the olivette discourse does not
have to limit it by assigning it to another eagle prophecy reference
especially if the reference is not in the context similar to another eagle message.

I believe that we can look into something so much so, that we, (myself included)
can keep ourselves from seeing the forest for the trees, so many trees, so thick a forest
but God deserves the glory because when we really look, His word cuts down deep into the heart
and reveals the truth that we need right on time, when we will need it the most.

The church is, right there in the heart of this message.
...we need to look a little closer and see that this is not a rapture message.

"In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house,
let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
-
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
...this is a message from the Lord for us to see what is happening around us at that time
and understand that the understanding will press us to drop everything and flee.
We will have known the message of the abomination of desolation
and of the mark of the beast so well that when it comes
we will have no other choice but to trust in the Lord and go.
When that day has come, we will know without a doubt, that it is here.
I believe, for those who have ears to ear, His Spirit will lead them there.
Yeshua will, by His Spirit, draw us away from the others who are not willing to hear His call
as they stay behind and accept the mark of the beast so they can be able to buy or sell anything.

The body (of Christ) will be, (where) the eagles gather together.
This is Yeshua's answer to the disciples question "Where, Lord?"
(Where will those who are "taken" be, or go to)
Yeshua cares for His bride, and in the midst of her greatest despair
He will not abandon her to the wolves in sheep's clothing, the false prophets.
Yeshua will be here with us, even if we suffer for His name and die for Him
or if we are held safe within the great refuge of the shadow of His wings.

Keep on loving each other as brothers. Do not forget to entertain strangers,
for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.
-
God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”

So we say with confidence, The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
Hebrews 13

Psalm 91 - (((video Word link)))

"In the day of trouble He will hide me"- The Lord is my light! (((videolink)))

So the mystery remains... where will the eagles gather for the body to be?
When the appointed time has come, some will be intensely drawn to be there.
(while others will refuse to hear the Spirit's call and be left in the field, at the mill or in their bed)
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Exit40 on Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:32 pm

Hi Lisa. Yes, some interesting conversation here. I'm going to retract my statement about the eagles, that being they are involved in the great supper of the Lord, as in the feast on the dead at Armageddon,gog/magog. Further research into this aspect leads me to believe I have made an assumption not based on Scripture. Somehow in my mind I put eagles into the category of the ravenous birds of every sort found in Eze 39:4, further expounded on in verses 17-29, and Revelation 19:17-21. Eagles are not specifically named as present there, so I should not assume they are.

The two verses involved in this discussion are therefore only Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28, and their surrounding contexts. There are two groups of people referred to, those taken and those left. The word for taken is used in both verses, paralambano:

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
a) an associate, a companion
b) metaph.
1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
a) an office to be discharged
b) to receive with the mind
1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the tradition proceeds
2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers (used of disciples)


The word for left is also used in both verses, aphiēmi:

1) to send away
a) to bid going away or depart
1) of a husband divorcing his wife
b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
c) to let go, let alone, let be
1) to disregard
2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
a) of teachers, writers and speakers
3) to omit, neglect
d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
a) in order to go to another place
b) to depart from any one
c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned
d) to desert wrongfully
e) to go away leaving something behind
f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
i) abandon, leave destitute


Thus in the context of what we are being told I like this definition for taken/paralambano:

b) metaph.
1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted


This implies those taken are the ones who accept Jesus as He professes to be, not withhold obedience from, and to somehow receive something transmitted, as some form of communication presumably from the Lord I am assuming here, as opposed to something like a disease being caught.

In this context I like this definition of left/aphiēmi:

1) to send away
a) to bid going away or depart
1) of a husband divorcing his wife
b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
c) to let go, let alone, let be


A husband divorcing his wife is only legal for fornication, metaphorically having idols, traditions of other men, an almost whatever, and placing them first above the Lord. Certainly this disqualifies this group from accepting Jesus for who He is, obeying Him and receiving His transmission.

Now for the body/carcase definitions. Without being asked by the Disciples where of those taken/left as it does not come up in this narrative Jesus volunteers the information and Matthew uses the word ptōma which has been translated carcase so as to define where 'they' are gathered to. Here is the definition for ptoma:

1) a fall, downfall
a) metaph. a failure, defeat, calamity
b) an error, lapse into sin
2) that which has fallen
a) the fallen body of one dead or slain, a corpse, a carcase


Luke 17 is not the Olivet Discourse so the ones here demanding to know when the Kingdom of God should come are the Pharisees. Jesus gives them an answer, then turns to the disciples to speak of what will happen ending with the where of those taken/left and Luke records the word body/soma:

1) the body both of men or animals
a) a dead body or corpse
b) the living body
1) of animals
2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
3) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
a) so in the NT of the church
4) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself


There seems to be two narratives going on here. Matt 24 speaks of those in Judea fleeing at the AOD, and Luke 17 seems to be about the coming of the Kingdom of God at the revealing of the Son of Man. Both narratives speak of an ' in that moment' make a decision, first to not follow after a false prophet and then to not turn back for earthly goods. Both speak of the Coming as like lightening from the east to the west. But these are two different events being described, the AOD in Matthew 24 and the revealing of the Son of Man in Luke 17. I can understand the not turning back in each narrative, but Luke 17, while it may imply a fleeing does not state so, and where are we to flee to anyway at the Coming ?

So in trying to define this to myself I can see the ones fleeing the AOD per Matthew 24 are believing Christians who accept, obey, and listen, and the ones left will eventually become the dead of the Tribulation, so the eagles will gather where the Lord's people are. For what reason I am not able to determine from just this narrative, but other Scripture speaks of Divine protection. As for Luke 17 the ones taken appears again to be believers, the ones left are the soon to be dead. What would be the purpose of the eagles here ? Possibly for protection through the coming wrath, but this too has to be described using other Scripture.

As for running out to where the eagles gather, for our protection is there, I see this as putting the eagle before the cart. First we gather where we are told , as in first being completely Faithful to our Lord and receiving a direct communication from Him, going to where we are told, then the eagles show up shortly afterward for their purpose as that is where we are gathered, just as He promised. Our reward is Him in whom we Trust.

That's the way I see it, and I am almost completely open to appropriate correction.

God Bless you

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Tevye on Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:25 pm

Well done David! Thank you.

Exit40 wrote:As for running out to where the eagles gather, for our protection is there, I see this as putting the eagle before the cart. First we gather where we are told , as in first being completely Faithful to our Lord and receiving a direct communication from Him, going to where we are told, then the eagles show up shortly afterward for their purpose as that is where we are gathered, just as He promised. Our reward is Him in whom we Trust.
Very well said.
I think you are spot on there.

Sometimes I step back and think about all of this,
and want not to think about any of it for a while, but that wouldn't be faithful.
Be prepared to stand, and be prepared to flee, if either is God's will for us.
Because our suffering may be a testimony, and our fleeing may be an opportunity
to share the gospel of Christ with those who will reject the mark of the beast.
Above all, no matter where we will be when it all comes down we can faithfully
trust in the Lord with all of our heart, and lean not on our own understanding.
I believe that when the appointed time has come, that Yeshua will be there for us.
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Mrs. B on Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:52 pm

Post-Wrath...

Exodus...19:4....Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I Bare YOU on Eagles Wings, and brought you Unto Myself.....

Deut. 32:11....As an Eagle stirreth up her nest....fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings,
taketh them, beareth them on her wings....
12...So the Lord alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him..

13....He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to sucK honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock:

Isa. 63:8....For he said, Surely they are My People, Children that will not lie; so He was their Saviour.
9...In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence Saved them:
In His love and in His pity he Redeemed them;
And He Bare them, and carried them all the days of old...
Ex. 19:4....Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians...And How I Bare You on Eagles Wings, and Brought you Unto MYself....
Rev.12:4.....And his tall drew the thrid part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5....And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his Throne...
6...And the woman fled into the wilderness..where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there...a thousand two hundred and threescore days...
7...And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby GodsStudent on Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:15 pm

:bowing: The Word is so beautiful, indeed.
Thanks so much you guys. Mrs. B..... :hugs:

Who is the "they" in Rev. 12: 6 ??

And the woman fled into the wilderness..where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there...a thousand two hundred and threescore days...
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Re: Post-Wrath

Postby Mrs. B on Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:26 am

Post-Wrath....

Gods Student......at the present time....I believe it is the Church

This explains Daniel 7:25...And he (a/c) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:
And they shall be given into his hand Until a Time and Times and the dividing of times...(about 3 1/2 years)

26...But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end...

27....And the Kingdom and Dominion, and the Greatness of the Kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the People of the Saints of the Most High...Whose Kingdom is an Everlasting Kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and Obey Him (Jesus)...

Daniel 8:13....Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake...How long shall be the vision concerning the Daily Sacrifice, and the Transgression of Desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be Trodden under?
14....And he said unto me....Unto two thousand and three hundred days; ....Then Shall the Sanctuary be Cleansed.....
(this is about seven years but in the midst of the seven)

Daniel 9:27....And He (Jesus) shall confirm the Covenant with many for one week:....(the seven, 2300 days or one week)
And in the Midst of the Week.....he (Jesus) shall cause the Sacrifice.....(The New Covenant the Blood Covenant we have with Him) and the Oblation....(the oblation is intercession...we call call on His Name and be saved...He Jesus is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for us the saints...but in the midst of the week it will cease...the door will be shut...the foolish virgions will cry but Jesus says the door is shut....just like God closed the door to the Ark.....not Noe)....so the door to salvation will be closed....
Then the Wrath is Poured Out...

WHY...and for the Overspreading of Abominations..He Jesus shall make it desolate, Even until the Consummation, and that Determined shall be poured upon the desolate...(the seven viols of wrath are poured out...)

(The Sanctuary is where God is...in the Church...We are the body of Christ....The Spirit of Christ Dwells in the Church Body......but the church has fallen away from the truth....so it is cleansed or purified or tried and tested....he shall confirme the covenant with many for one week but in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice tocease....

and the wrath of God shall be poured out....

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