Post-Wrath

[Seeker]

The Final Battle

Often times I say there is a battle associated with the day of the Lord and the second return of Christ. The battle is set in Israel and Israel returns to the Lord after that battle. I want to try and list as many of those scriptures as I can in this post and briefly comment on each regarding its connection to the DOTL. I am trying to show patterns that I have seen in scripture. The final battle seems to always be there. This battle is another proof that they all speak of the same events. Along with that battle there is a regathering of Israel to her land for the last time. Since we know that the AC attacks Israel during the second half of the 70th week we can presume the relative calm in Israel today won't last forever. There will be another great dispersion of Israel by the AC. God will send them to places all over earth away from the AC. We know that because we can see in scripture where God regathers them from those places He sent them.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

First notice that God uses specific country names here to tell where He sent Israel. All the names mentioned are traditional middle eastern enemies of Israel. Before this last gathering from the muslim countries listed they were dispersed by the Lord for their disobedience. That is sort of the purpose of the AC.

Isa 10:3 And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?
Isa 10:4 Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Pretty straight forward and direct here. Israel has a heavy price to pay via the hands of the AC. This final onslaught shown in Isaiah 10 is the same event shown Daniel 7 and 12 as well as Revelation 11 and 13,

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

In Daniel 7 we see the AC making war and prevailing over the saints for 3 1/2 years. In Dan 12 we see the same time of trouble as we see in Matt 24.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For both Dan 12:1 and Matt 24:21 to be the worst time ever in Israel they would have to be the same events especially since both refer to the resurrection of the saints as well. Jesus mentions the AOD in Matt 24:15 as starting this worst time ever and we see the AOD in Dan 11:31 during the time referred to from Dan 12. Dan 12:1 starts off "at that time"...which would have to refer back to the time just spoken of in Dan 11 which is the time and career of the AC starting at Dan 11:21 through the AOD of 11:31 and he dies at 11:45 just before 12:1. Everything always cross checks there are no descrepencies that I can find in any scripture it all runs full circle back no matter where I start from.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

This gives us the same timeframe that Jerusalem is under seige (3 1/2 years). This also sets the timing of the two witnesses because we know this attack by the AC starts after the AOD. In fact when they see the AOD, as described by Daniel, they are to flee because the worst trib ever is about to arrive. The outer court is given to the gentiles and the holy city tread under foot for 42 months. This is the same timeframe Daniel gives in both Daniel 7 and 12.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

From the time the daily sacrifice is removed (Dan 11:31 during the AOD) there will be 3 1/2 years. So again another confirmation on our information.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And just to make sure we get it here it is again 3 1/2 years. The reason I went into so much detail here is that we know exactly when the AC's alloted timeframe is. So when we see this Final Battle in scripture we can know that the timeframe is the last 3 1/2 years. The more signposts we can find to correctly set timing the better off we are. If I can find several confirmations of a theory or thought in scripture then I am on the right track. This is all important because all these battle scenes in various scriptures are occuring during the time of the AC. The last great dispersion can also be timestamped and proven to occur during the reign of the AC or final 3 1/2 years. This is how this complex story starts to get really confusing so we need to keep good anchor points like the AOD/cosmic signs. I will stop here for now and then pick up with the details of the final battle and the links to the return of Christ.

(Part 1...to be continued)

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Seeker, do you see this final battle as also being the same one described in Ezekiel 38-39? I noticed that you didn't have any references from Ezekiel, so that's why I ask.

[Seeker]

Hi Sherree,

Ezekiel 38-39 will sort of be the conclusion of the Final Battle post. I was saving it for the last after I examine the scriptures related to the final battle for many reasons. It is sort of the grand finale' but to answer your question yes I see Ezekiel 38-39 as describing the final battle but more than just the final battle...stay tuned...lol.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

The Final Battle Part 2

The final battle occurs in Israel and is intimately related to Israel. God warned Israel from
the beginning what would happen if they disobeyed His commandments. We need to keep this in mind
as we consider the final battle. It is "about" Israel first and foremost. Many times we
westerners tend to think of Christianity as the focus of the bible but really it is Israel
that is the focus especially in the end times.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through
their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the
riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify
mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save
some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the
receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are
the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert
graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the
root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not
highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but
toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is
able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed
contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural
branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should
be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of
the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the
Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the
election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through
their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain
mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable
are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

God has blinded Israel. But why blind His chosen people?

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image,
neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD
your God.
Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Lev 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
Lev 26:4 Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the
trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
Lev 26:5 And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the
sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
Lev 26:6 And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you
afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.
Lev 26:7 And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
Lev 26:8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to
flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
Lev 26:9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and
establish my covenant with you.
Lev 26:10 And ye shall eat old store, and bring forth the old because of the new.
Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
Lev 26:13 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye
should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.
Lev 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;

Leviticus 26 is a continuation of Lev 25 which gives additional things for Israel to do. God
promised to walk among them if they would just follow His commandments. But as we know Israel
did not and ended up rejecting the very Messiah sent to save them. Now God tells them what will
happen if they disobey him.

Lev 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye
will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
Lev 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and
the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your
seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
Lev 26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they
that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven
times more for your sins.
Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and
your earth as brass:
Lev 26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase,
neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
Lev 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven
times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
Lev 26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and
destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
Lev 26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
Lev 26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your
sins.
Lev 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and
when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye
shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
Lev 26:26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one
oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be
satisfied.
Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Lev 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you
seven times for your sins.
Lev 26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Lev 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases
upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
Lev 26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I
will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
Lev 26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall
be astonished at it.
Lev 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and
your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
Lev 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in
your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
Lev 26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths,
when ye dwelt upon it.
Lev 26:36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in
the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee,
as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
Lev 26:37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth:
and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
Lev 26:38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
Lev 26:39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies'
lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their
trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of
their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the
punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also
my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Lev 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth
desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even
because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them
away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for
I am the LORD their God.
Lev 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought
forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the
LORD.
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the
children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

God will scatter them among their enemies lands (26:33) and utterly destroy them but not all of
them. For their ancestors covenant and the promises God made to them He will not allow them all
to be destroyed. So Israel was warned from early on about the price of disobedience. This sets
up the final battle where God remembers the covenant He made to their ancestors and steps in to
save Israel from total destruction. As we look at the scriptures concerning the final battle we
will run across this scattering that is associated with it. The scattering is a component or
part of the final battle because the scattering ends after the final battle. We will see this
scatter theme repeated in final conflict type scripture.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of
the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the
people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the
second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from
Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from
the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of
Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 11 tells us when the regathering takes place. It is associated with Jesus reigning over the earth. We can now timestamp the regathering of the scattered to the end of the last 7 years and the beginning of the millennium. Now when we read about the final regathering we know our time frame. This is important because it keeps our bearings straight for us. There will only be one final regathering of Israel so each different scripture describing that is describing the same set of events. This is how we can fill in some of the details concerning the final battle. Each different prophet states it in a similar but slightly different manner. We can line up all the common points and then add all the prophet specific points to help complete our view of the final battle.

Joe 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Here is the scattering mentioned in Joel 3 connecting it to condemnation of Lev 26. We can verify the timing by going back to Joel 2 as well because Joel 3 begins with "in those days"...what days?...the days just spoke of in Joel 2.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

So again verifying the timing of the regathering from the scattering. It is when the Lord is ruling from Mount Zion/Jerusalem which of course is the end of the last 7 years or beginning of the millennium. There are several different important connections here in the book of Joel. The scattering led us here to Joel where we are about to assemble a whole host of information regarding the events connected with the final battle. Joel goes into great detail in his description of that timeframe.

Joe 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.
Joe 1:2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?
Joe 1:3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.
Joe 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.
Joe 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.
Joe 1:6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
Joe 1:7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

Joe 1:13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.
Joe 1:14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,
Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

A great nation has laid Israel to waste, the meat/drink offerings of the house of the Lord is withheld from the house of the Lord. The meat and drink offerings are the "daily sacrifices".

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

This would put the daily sacrifice removal and day of the Lord in the same general timeframe which matches what other scriptures teach as well.

Joe 1:14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,
Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joe 1:16 Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?
Joe 1:17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.
Joe 1:18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
Joe 1:19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
Joe 1:20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

Matches the fiery end that other scriptures show as well for the DOTL. Joel 1 describes the timeframe we are interested in from a very general view or zoomed out as I like to think of it. The bible does this alot. The story or subject is introduced in one chapter from a general perspective; brief and introductory. Usually after that the bible follows up with a more detailed version of the same story as Joel 2 does here. The brief details we gain in Joel 1 are that a nation lays Israel to waste around the time of the AOD and the DOTL.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Now we learn a few more details about the DOTL itself followed by details concerning the nation that lays Israel to waste in Joel 1.

Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Now we are beginning to see a picture of this nation that lays Israel to waste. See how the details are zooming in on the story? It started general in Joel 1 and now we are provided some detail of the events. These details become characteristics that we look for in other scriptures which further connect the dots of this story. Each time we learn new details it also opens up more of the story to us because in most cases these same details are described in other scriptures. Those scriptures then add more characteristics or zoom factor to our view of what is taking place. Occasionally we have to zoom back out to connect to a timestamp to understand correctly. All the zooming in and out is what gets confusing. That is why I am always looking for timestamp anchors.

Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
Joe 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
Joe 2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

God promises to remove that army that lays Israel to waste and that He will do great things in Israel. This is God rescuing the scattered remnant of Israel starting in Israel.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

And finally here we have my timestamp in the form of the cosmic signs (sun/moon/stars darkened). Those same cosmic signs are in Matt 24 and Rev 6 connecting this whole mess with the return of Jesus. Joel just blew open our understanding or should have. In two chapters he has connected the scattering/regathering to the AOD/DOTL/cosmic signs/nation laying waste to Israel/final battle. This brings us back to where I started in Joel 3.

Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

We now have a very solid initial connection to the final battle of the OT and the return of Jesus/Armageddon of the NT plus we are building a set of characteristics associated with the DOTL. I'll stop for now and then continue next time with more views of this final battle from other scriptures. Joel is the key connection between the DOTL and Matt 24. All three chapters of Joel speak of the same story or set of events. We can add all the info we gain from these three chapters to our characteristics of the final evil kingdom on earth and the final epic battle in the bible.

(Part 2...to be continued)

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

The Final Battle-Conclusion

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and
the terrible day of the LORD come.

With this one verse Joel sets the timing of the DOTL for us. The cosmic signs occur
before the DOTL according to Joel. We can know from Matthew 24 that the cosmic signs occur
"immediately" after the tribulation of those days in Israel. The AOD begins the tribulation and
it ends 3 1/2 years later according to Daniel 7 and Rev 11/13.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the
moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the
tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather
together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The AOD is at the midpoint of the last 7 years which begins the tribulation and the cosmic signs
are immediately after that tribulation of 3 1/2 years. That tells us that the cosmic signs occur
3 1/2 years after the midpoint of the last 7 years. Those cosmic signs occur before the terrible
day of the Lord according to Joel 2:31. This would mean the DOTL is just after the end of the
last 7 years since it follows the cosmic signs at the end of the last 7 years. That means
Matthew 24:31 occurs after the end of the last 7 years since the cosmic signs (24:29) are at the
end of the last 7 years. Before all the DOTL talk Joel tells us of a northern army.

Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden
of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they
run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a
flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they
shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land
barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost
sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great
things.

So sometime before the DOTL a "northern" army will have invaded Israel. Who invades Israel just
before the cosmic signs? The AC does; in fact the ending of his tribulation of Israel is at the
cosmic signs. So Joel connects the AC to this army that invades Israel in the OT known as the
"northern army". This is the final battle he is talking about because at the end of it Israel
returns to the Lord forever.

Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the
heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength
of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then
shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Jesus roars out of Jerusalem where He reigns during the millennium which would be just after the
end of the last 7 years as indicated by the presence of the cosmic signs (3:15). Just before the
cosmic signs we have the final battle which would have to be of the AC since he is said to rule
the earth at that time in Rev 13. Somehow the AC's army will be characterized as northern in
some aspect. They are defeated by the Lord personally as well. Let's see if we can find this
army elsewhere in scripture.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will
I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the
mire of the streets.

Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are
escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay
upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Israel returns to the Lord after they are attacked by the "Assyrian". We know that Israel
returns to the Lord after being attacked by the northern army and the "Assyrian". Can northern
and Assyrian be connected? Yes.

Zep 2:13 And he will stretch out his hand against the north, and destroy Assyria; and will make
Nineveh a desolation, and dry like a wilderness.

Zephaniah verifies that Joel and Isaiah could be talking about the same army in addition to the
timing lining up. The Lord defeats the Assyrian in Isaiah 10 so we are seeing two different
accounts of the same story.

Zec 2:4 And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as
towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:
Zec 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the
glory in the midst of her.
Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have
spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I
will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto
thee.
Zec 2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose
Jerusalem again.
Zec 2:13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy
habitation.

Zechariah has them fleeing from the land of the north near the time Israel returns to the Lord
and being gathered in Judah. This is the regathering after the scattering. All these scriptures
interconnect with one another.

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for
my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them
mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of
my jealousy.
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name
of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that
halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land
where they have been put to shame.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will
make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity
before your eyes, saith the LORD.

Here the story is again in Zephaniah 3. The common theme is that God raises the nations to
attack Israel and then rescues Israel who are His people forever after. This same theme is
repeated by prophet after prophet.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of
thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken,
and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into
captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the
day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before
Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east
and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall
remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And here Zechariah puts it all together for us. The day Jesus touches the mount of Olives is the
DOTL when He gathers all nations to fight against Israel and then defeats those nations. God
gathers them just as He does at Armageddon.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and
out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of
the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest
he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Behold I come as a thief...at the time of Armageddon He is still expected to arrive as a thief.
God brings the nations to Israel for the battle they don't really choose to go per say.

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that
come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the
spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and
they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him,
as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Here again in Zechariah 12 God is destroying the nations aligned against Jerusalem connected with
them looking upon Jesus thus again verifying that upon His return Jesus destroys the nations
gathered in Israel. This is exactly what Rev 19 shows us as well.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of
God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine
linen, white and clean.

Here Jesus is leaving heaven with the armies of heaven following Him to judge the nations. The
AC and armies of the earth are gathered in Israel and Jesus defeats them. After that we see the
resurrection in Rev 20:4 setting the timing for Rev 19 at the end of the last 7 years. This
conflict has to be the very same one that the OT speaks of. It all always ties together
regardless of which direction we start.

Eze 36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their
own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
Eze 36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land,
and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries:
according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
Eze 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the
heathen, whither they went.
Eze 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for
your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the
heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have
profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD,
when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and
will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your
filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will
take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye
shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God.

Look familiar? It should we have many of the characteristics we have been studying all together
in easy reading form. The added bit of info we get is that God gives them a new spirit (36:26).
That will come up again in a few chapters.

Eze 38:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech
and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Eze 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of
Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth,
and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a
great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
Eze 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
Eze 38:6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his
bands: and many people with thee.
Eze 38:7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled
unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the
land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the
mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations,
and they shall dwell safely all of them.

In the latter years a group of nations attack Israel...there's one of our characteristics we are
looking for. The other point here is that the nations listed are associated with "north" again.
Meshech/Tubal were in ancient Turkey which lies directly north of Israel. "the house of Togarmah
of the "north" quarters....there is another characteristic that Joel mentions, north.

Eze 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land,
thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall
things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them
that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars
nor gates,
Eze 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that
are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten
cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

They have come to take spoil. Spoils/prey are also a characteristic of the final battle.

Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will
I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the
mire of the streets.

Dan 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do
that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the
prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds,
even for a time.

Eze 38:13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof,
shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a
prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
Eze 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day
when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with
thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

Thou (Gog) comes out of the north parts gathering spoil and prey.

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it
shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me,
when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants
the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against
them?

God will be sanctified by the defeat of Gog that the heathen may know Him. God uses a sort of a
rhetorical question here in 38:17. Speaking to Gog, God asks him if he is the one he spoke of in
old time by His servants the prophets of Israel. They prophesied that in those days many years
God would bring Gog against Israel. This is a very significant clue in Eze 38. God is basically
telling us that He spoke about Gog through the prophets of old in Israel. We just happen to have
writings from those prophets to search. Do we see anywhere in the prophets a story of a northern
army attacking Israel in the latter times? You bet we do just scroll up this post and read them.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of
Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there
shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the
field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face
of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep
places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord
GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him,
and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great
hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of
many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

At the same time that Gog goes up against Israel God's fury will come up in His face. For in the
fire of His wrath has He spoken. Every living creature on earth shakes at His presence, mountains
are thrown down, every wall falls to the ground. To shake at His presence means God is present.
There is a great earthquake associated in scripture with the arrival of Jesus. Where else in
scriptures do we see mountains thrown down?

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,
such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the
fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a
talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was
exceeding great.

Also great hail in both/wrath of God. So far our battle shown in Eze 38 fits our model from
other scriptures precisely. Ezekiel 38 is actually like Joel 1 was it is introductory in a way. Eze 39 repeats the story from a zoomed in perspective.

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

(KJV)

Eze 39:1 Therefore, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the chief ruler of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.
Eze 39:2 And I will turn you back, and lead you on. And I will bring you up from the recesses of the north, and I will bring you on the mountains of Israel.

(MKJV)

I don't like the KJV translation for Eze 39:2. The KJV is the only version that has the 1/6th in it. Other versions are similar as the modern KJV I also listed. The meaning is that God brings Gog to this battle. The same meaning as Eze 38:4 where He puts hooks in Gog's mouth and leds him to the battle. God brings the nations to the final battle just as the earlier examples in the prophets of old writings I qouted above.

Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

They fall upon the mountains and fields of Israel where God brings every sort of ravenous birds and the beasts of the fields to devour Gog's fallen army.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Same story in Rev 19 basically. The similarities are too many and too close to not be the final battle depicted in Eze 38-39.

Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

We have to ask ourselves what day has God spoken of? Around that day His holy name will be known in the midst of His people Israel. He will not let them pollute His holy name any longer, the heathen will know that He is the Lord, the Holy One "in" Israel. Which day would qualify? Only one day I know of, the day of the Lord.

Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
Eze 39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

Israel is running around burning weapons after this Gog battle. Wouldn't seem like the thing to do if this wasn't the final battle.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

God has set His glory among the heathen, "all" the heathen shall see His judgment that He executed on Gog, and that His hand was laid upon them. The heathen will also know that Israel went into captivity for their iniquity and trepasses against Him. Therefore He hid His face from them and gave them into the hands of their enemies. The heathen know that God allowed them to be victorious over Israel. This has to be at the end of the last 7 years. The house of Israel will know that the He is the Lord their God from that day and forward (forever). This is when Israel returns to the Lord which we know happens at the end of the last 7 years. God hid his face from them is why the heathen were able to defeat them.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Now we have a brief recap of the story. Notice though in 39:28 God has gathered them to their own land and left none of them in their enemies lands any more. God will no longer hide His face from Israel for He has poured His spirit out upon the house of Israel. I guarantee you no one touches Israel after this point. To verify the timing we can look at other scripture showing where God pours out His spirit upon Israel.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

God in Israel associated with pouring out His spirit mentioned in association to the cosmic signs which we know occur at the end of the last 7 years(Joel 2) and God pouring his spirit upon the house of David when they look upon Jesus who they had pierced (Zec 12). Both Eze 38 and Eze 39 end at the same point in time. Every creature shakes at the presence of God/ mountains thrown down in Eze 38 and Israel returning to the Lord forever in Eze 39. These are two unmistakable timestamps which forces me to conclude that both Eze 38 & 39 are telling the same story from slightly different perspectives. The proven timing of Eze 38-39 forces this battle to be led by the AC. Armageddon is simply the end of the Gog/Magog conflict. Gog is the AC and starts the conflict with Israel at the AOD. So Gog gets an idea around the midpoint of the last 7 years to invade Israel to take spoil from unwalled/barred/gated Israel. Israel is dispersed fleeing from Gog/AC and then God steps in, defeats Gog/AC, and then gathers Israel to Himself forever after.

I would be remiss in my responsibilities if I did not point out that we can clearly identify the AC in Eze 38. He is chief prince of Meshech/Tubal (Turkey) and his allies listed in Eze 38 are all muslim today. Muslims are the sworn enemies of old and present of Israel. All the enemies that the bible says will be enemies of Israel are muslim today. The Gog Magog war is future and its leading nations are clearly named in Eze 38. Whether one thinks the AC is muslim or not does not discount the fact that Eze 38 shows Turkey, Iran, Libya, Ethiopia/Sudan, and many other tribes attacking Israel. This will happen God wrote it. We need to keep an eye on Turkey and Iran and their growing partnership because at some point in the future those two will attack Israel at the final battle. I am sure there are places I have missed where this battle is shown as well. Feel free to add any scriptures that I have neglected to add. These posts are way to long the way it is...lol...anyway that is basically how I see the final battle that scripture screams of. It is the final showdown between good and evil with evil getting removed when the Lord returns to rescue Israel.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Hi seeker,

Read several posts and primarily the last one that sums things up so well and ties all the scriptures together perfectly.

I agree nearly completely.

The only diference I can find in our ideas is this.

You see a full 7 year FUTURE fulfillment of the seventieth week and I believe one half of the final week has already been fulfilled by Christ and only the final half of the 70th week awaits fulfillment.

You see the LAST DAY as the LAST DAY of the FINAL 7 YEARS. I see the LAST DAY as LASTING 1,000 years, and the gathering in the air (rapture) occuring on the FIRST DAY of that LAST(1,000 year long )DAY of the Lord.

The gathering (rapture) will occur AFTER the last 3.5 years of the 70th week, in this wee agree. You may ask, "why then do you call yourself prewrath rather than postwrath?". Simple, I believeth only the 75 days that FOLLOW the last 3.5 of the 70th week can be scripturaly PROVEN to be God's wrath.

[bchandler]

Um, the "end of the world" would be the end of the millennium, at the great white throne judgment, prior to the creation of the new heaven and new earth, and the decent of the new Jerusalem upon it.

The world does not end at the second coming.

This allows for the differences in texts... where in 2nd Thessalonians and Matthew we are instantly changed and go to meet him in the air, versus the "end of the world" when the Angels sever the wicked from the righteous. There is 1000 years between these 2 events.

Also take note that in the Gog/Magog battle the invading army is destroyed on the "mountains of Israel" in the North part of Israel. From the description it is most likely the high volcanic plains area around Sheba Farms. Note also the manner of their destruction is in line with a massive volcanic eruption, rains, and hail, as well as by the sword.

Now Note that in the Meggido battle, AKA Armageddon, The army is totally destroyed in the VALLEY of Meggido, and it is destroyed by Christ himself, at the brightness of his coming, there is mention of massive hailstones, and the sword that proceeds from the mouth of Christ. but there is no mention of fire, and brimstone.

I have never seen anyone reconcile the geographical position or means of destruction between these two battles that would allow me in good conscience to believe they are the same battle.

You might be right... but I can't reconcile it, and I have never seen anyone else who could reconcile it to my satisfaction.


IMO, it appears that they take place in 2 different places, with 2 different means of destruction, with 2 different outcomes. The first results in Israel returning to God, never to depart again, while simultaneously reducing the armies of the invaders by 4/5. The second results in the total annihilation of the invading army, and the establishment of Messiah's throne, and the beginning of his 1000 year millennial reign.


It is also important to note that at the end of the millennium there is a second gathering of Gog/Magog and the nations against Israel, they are destroyed by fire from heaven, and we see immediately following this, the Great White Throne Judgment of the dead.

I have seen people "try" to reconcile these events, but I have always found what IMO were fundamental flaws of deductive reasoning and logic based upon the available scriptural evidence.

[Tevye]

We will meet...in the Golden City - (video link)

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

The gathering (rapture) will occur AFTER the last 3.5 years of the 70th week, in this wee agree. You may ask, "why then do you call yourself prewrath rather than postwrath?". Simple, I believeth only the 75 days that FOLLOW the last 3.5 of the 70th week can be scripturaly PROVEN to be God's wrath.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Wouldn't the five months here at the 5th trumpet be considered God's wrath?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The 5th trumpet precedes the 7th trumpet shown here in Rev 10&11. At the 7th trumpet Jesus begins to reign for ever and ever. This is at the end of the last 3 1/2 years but yet we have had at least 5 months of wrath prior to the end of the last 7 years. The wrath of God begins prior to the end of the last 7 years as shown by the 5 month torment before Jesus begins to reign at the conclusion of the last 7 years. There are 4 trumpet judgments prior to the fifth of unknown duration but from their descriptions they may entail some length of time. My feeling is that the two witnesses dispence plagues associated with the wrath of God during their 3 1/2 year ministry.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Their ministry ends near the 7th trumpet when Jesus begins to reign. So they would be alive as the two witnesses during the time the 5 month locust torment occured. Being direct witnesses of God I would think they would be aware of if not pronouncing the locust plague. The two witnesses remind me very much of Moses in Egypt and the plagues therein. Except this time the two like Moses/Aaron would be confronting the antichrist rather than Pharoah. The plagues pronounced by the two witnesses during the last 3 1/2 years would be the wrath of God as well from my perspective. So I believe scripture shows us in the 5th trumpet judgment that the wrath of God begins before Jesus arrives to finish it off so to speak. We are not raptured until Jesus returns after the wrath has already began. The Seal/Trumpet/Vial judgment are God's last attempt to get the wicked to repent before His just judgment forces Him to eternally condemn them.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

It appears that during the very wrath itself God is still offering repentance. It is like God ratchets up the pain level before total destruction much as the plagues increased in intensity in Egypt as Pharoah continued to attempt to defy the will of God. So my view of the last 3 1/2 years has the two witnesses dispencing a series of plagues (Seals/Trumpets/Vials) in order to save as many as possible. The AC will hate that he can't touch them as the miracles they perform bring some at least to repentance. The last 3 1/2 years are going to be full of signs and wonders from both sides as far as I can see in scripture. Going to be interesting to say the least.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

Um, the "end of the world" would be the end of the millennium, at the great white throne judgment, prior to the creation of the new heaven and new earth, and the decent of the new Jerusalem upon it.

The world does not end at the second coming.

Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Isaiah 62 seems to indicate otherwise. The end of the world here mentioned in conjunction with the salvation of Christ. Better than just indicating we have the very words of Christ describing the "end of the world". The phrase "end of the world" is only used a few times in the bible; 7 that I know of in 4 books, Psalms 19, Isaiah 62, Matthew 13,24,28 and Hebrews 9. Matthew 13 gives us a parable concerning the end of the world from Jesus Himself. The great thing about the wheat and tares parable is that Jesus also provides the interpretation to the parable for us. No guessing we are told exactly what the parable means first hand from Jesus.

Parable:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Interpretation:

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The phrase "end of the world" is used in Matt 13:39 and in bold above. This is part of the interpretation given by Jesus and it says that the harvest portrayed in the parable is the end of the world.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Both are allowed to grow together until the harvest/end of the world. So the wheat (children of the kingdom) and the tares (children of the wicked one) grow together until the end of the world. Then they are both gathered at the same time one burnt and the other in the barn. The next place the phrase "end of the world" is used is Matt 13:49.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

Here again Jesus shows all kinds in the net good and bad revealing both groups harvested at the same time. In order for the angels to sever the wicked from among the just they both have to be present at the end of the world. So again the end of the world is compared to when the saints are harvested which is at the return of Jesus prior to the millennium.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The sign of His coming and the "end of the world" are directly asked about together by His disciples. So in every case we see that in actuality the second return of Christ is considered the "end of the world" at least by Jesus and His disciples which is good enough for me. It makes sense too when we read the entire wrath of God and the fervent heat Peter speaks of which melts the very elements of the earth. From everything I read as Jesus returns He torches the earth melting the very elements of earth. That would be the end of the earth as we know it thus the end of the world.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Wouldn't the five months here at the 5th trumpet be considered God's wrath?

No Seeker, don't see it that way since God's Word does not declare it as such.
The gathering is at the seventh trump and the vials of God's wrath follow that IMO.
Jesus does reign at the sounding of the seventh trump, we reign with Him and return from the clouds with Him at the battle of Armegedon(Rev 19) Remember IMO the vials of God's wrath occur during a space of only, probably(just a guess here), 45 days.

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

Also take note that in the Gog/Magog battle the invading army is destroyed on the "mountains of Israel" in the North part of Israel. From the description it is most likely the high volcanic plains area around Sheba Farms. Note also the manner of their destruction is in line with a massive volcanic eruption, rains, and hail, as well as by the sword.

Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

They are also destroyed on the open field. The manner that they die is the manner sent by the Lord in the fire of His wrath.

Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

God sends the fire and they know it.

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

See God wrote of Gog in the prophets of old from Israel. Ezekiel 38 shows a portion of God's wrath here.
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

This is all from God whose presence causes an earthquake so severe that every living creature on earth shakes and mountains are thrown down. The fire, brimstone, and pestilence come from God as Eze 38 states.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Here's the same set of events portrayed in Rev 16 during the wrath of God. Ezekiel 39 then shows Israel with the Lord forever after along with His Holy Spirit poured out upon Israel.

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Where else do we see God pouring His spirit out upon Israel at in scripture?

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

It is when God is in the midst of Israel after the return of Jesus.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The heathen/nations will know He is the Lord , the Holy One "IN" Israel. At the conclusion of the Gog battle we see the presence of God on earth. That timestamps Ezekiel 38 & 39 as being the last battle before the return of Christ. In the NT we know that battle as Armageddon. Armageddon is simply the last battle in the Gog/AC 3 1/2 year battle campaign starting at the AOD. This is the day whereof God has spoken. What day has God spoken of through His prophets the servants of Israel? The only day I read about that resembles the day God defeats Gog is known as the DOTL in the OT and the second coming of Christ in the NT.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

Now Note that in the Meggido battle, AKA Armageddon, The army is totally destroyed in the VALLEY of Meggido, and it is destroyed by Christ himself, at the brightness of his coming, there is mention of massive hailstones, and the sword that proceeds from the mouth of Christ. but there is no mention of fire, and brimstone.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

IMO, it appears that they take place in 2 different places, with 2 different means of destruction, with 2 different outcomes. The first results in Israel returning to God, never to depart again, while simultaneously reducing the armies of the invaders by 4/5. The second results in the total annihilation of the invading army, and the establishment of Messiah's throne, and the beginning of his 1000 year millennial reign.

If you refer to this verse I agree it is confusing.

Eze 38:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
Eze 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

This is one of the few places I depart from the KJV. It baffled me until I started looking at the verse in other bible versions. KJV is the only one that uses the sixth part of the.

Ezekiel 39 (New International Version)

Ezekiel 39
1 "Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of [a] Meshech and Tubal. 2 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you.

Ezekiel 39 (New American Standard Bible)

Ezekiel 39
Prophecy against Gog--Invaders Destroyed
1"And (A)you, son of man, prophesy against Gog and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal;
2and I will turn you around, drive you on, take you up from the remotest parts of the north and bring you against the mountains of Israel.

3"I will (B)strike your bow from your left hand and dash down your arrows from your right hand.

4"You will (C)fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you as (D)food to every kind of predatory bird and beast of the field.

Ezekiel 39 (English Standard Version)

Ezekiel 39
1"And you,(A) son of man,(B) prophesy against(C) Gog and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold,(D) I am against you, O Gog,(E) chief prince of(F) Meshech[a] and Tubal. 2(G) And I will turn you about and drive you forward, and bring you up from(H) the uttermost parts of the north, and lead you against the(I) mountains of Israel. 3Then(J) I will strike your bow from your left hand, and will make your arrows drop out of your right hand. 4(K) You shall fall on(L) the mountains of Israel, you and all your(M) hordes and the peoples who are with you.(N) I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5You shall fall in the open field, for(O) I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD. 6(P) I will send fire on(Q) Magog and on those(R) who dwell securely in(S) the coastlands, and(T) they shall know that I am the LORD.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=ESV

For whatever reason the rest do not translate it as a sixth part so that reconciles it with me.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

The gathering is at the seventh trump and the vials of God's wrath follow that IMO.

Oh that explains it I view the Seals/Trumpets/Vials as occurring in parallel with one another because they all have the same ending point.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here is the 6th seal and we see the cosmic signs (sun/moon/stars dark). Those same signs accompany the return of Jesus so the 6th seal happens just before the return of Christ which is at the end of the last 7 years.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

The same cosmic signs are shown in Rev 6 at the 6th seal.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Then we see the rapture in Rev 7. So the 6th seal is just before Jesus returns immediately after the 3 1/2 AC tribulation of Matt 24.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

At the 7th Trumpet Jesus begins reigning which means He has just returned just as in the 6th-7th seal.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

They were gathered for Armageddon and then the 7th vial and it is done. Again the same timeframe as the 7th seal and trumpet. That is why I conclude they occur in parallel with one another. It is sort of like the seal just keeps the judgment from being revealed. The trumpet announces the pending execution of the judgment. The seal is broken the trumpet blasted and the judgment read sort of like a court proceeding it seems to me. The judge is handed the sentence in a sealed envelop to be announced. Anyway what I can say for sure is that the 7th or each end at the same time, the return of Christ.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Here is the 6th seal and we see the cosmic signs (sun/moon/stars dark). Those same signs accompany the return of Jesus so the 6th seal happens just before the return of Christ which is at the end of the last 7 years.

I agree

The same cosmic signs are shown in Rev 6 at the 6th seal.

Agree

Then we see the rapture in Rev 7. So the 6th seal is just before Jesus returns immediately after the 3 1/2 AC tribulation of Matt 24.

agree in part

I believe the all the trumpets are parallel with seals 4-6 only

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

I read several of your posts in your thread so now understand where you are coming from although I disagree with you on many points. Those are for another day though. Concerning your timing of the judgments I don't see how you can't see that the 7th seal is at the return of Jesus with His wrath being dispenced upon the sinners on earth at that time. Rev 6 states that it is the wrath of the Lamb. When we look at the cosmic signs in Joel we see them occuring just before the DOTL as they are just before the return of Christ in Matt 24.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The cosmic signs are part of the 6th seal they also occur immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation of Matt 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This tribulation is the last tribulation in Israel before Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives. It has to be caused by the AC because he is the last to attack Israel prior to Jesus returning (Rev 19). The cosmic signs occur immediately after that 3 1/2 year attack by the AC.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The AC is given 3 1/2 years against the saints. This can be verified from Dan 7 as well.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The kingdom is taken from the AC after his 3 1/2 year reign against the saints and given to the saints forever. So the end of the AC's career is when the saints receive the kingdom. That happens at the 7th trumpet when Jesus begins to reign forever.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Jesus lists the cosmic signs as part of His second coming. They occur one verse before He is seen coming in the clouds in Matt 24. The 6th seal is the cosmic signs which means that the 6th seal is the last thing prior to Jesus arriving. Then we have the 7th seal after that. What happens after the cosmic signs in Matt 24? Jesus arrives and all tribes of the earth mourn/Lambs wrath. What happens after the 6th seal? We see Jesus as the Lamb having wrath. The 7th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time after the cosmic signs during the wrath of the Lamb. Then of course the 7th vial is also shown during the wrath of God.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

It is done and of course we see Armageddon so the timing here is easy to see. But the same time is involved at the 7th seal and trumpet as well. All three of the 7th occur right at the arrival of Christ. They can't be sequential for the 7th of each to end at the same point in time.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Hi Seeker,

I read several of your posts in your thread so now understand where you are coming from although I disagree with you on many points. Those are for another day though. Concerning your timing of the judgments I don't see how you can't see that the 7th seal is at the return of Jesus with His wrath being dispenced upon the sinners on earth at that time. Rev 6 states that it is the wrath of the Lamb. When we look at the cosmic signs in Joel we see them occuring just before the DOTL as they are just before the return of Christ in Matt 24.

I agree that Christ comes at the signs of the 6th seal and these agree with Joel and math 24. I have said the trumps overlap seals 4-6. Please read posts numbered 4-6 (shorttrib/prewrath)and these should clarify the overlap, the condensed overview nature of the seals and the "His wrath has come and who shall stand" statement of the 6th seal and it's relationship to the wrath statement at the end of Rev 11.

Please take special note of "who shall stand" and why it is a D.I. that follows the sixth seal.

The trumps have similarities to the vials but IMO they do not overlap or run parallel.

We see the Gathering to Christ at the same time @ the seventh trump and @ the sixth seal, but not @ the seventh vial.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

post # 4...................(1) The nearly identical statement "His wrath has come" is found in Rev11:18, in Rev6:17 the statement is said by the ungodly and in Rev 11:18 it is said by the twenty-four elders.

(2) All of the trumpet judgements are superimposed over the fourth thru sixth seals making the first trumpet coincide exactly with the revealing of the antichrist (the loser) so that all seven trumpets share the same time period as seals 4-6.

Please take special note of "who shall stand" and why it is a D.I. that follows the sixth seal.

The trumps have similarities to the vials but IMO they do not overlap or run parallel.

We see the Gathering to Christ at the same time @ the seventh trump and @ the sixth seal, but not @ the seventh vial.

There is not a time span after the 6th seal there is the wrath of the Lamb following the 6th seal. Jesus arrives in flaming fire when He returns taking vengence on those that don't know God. The cosmic signs, which are part of the 6th seal, always are shown in connection with the return of Christ as He destroys the sinners. The sinners are removed first remember Matthew 13 wheat/tares, states that the tares are removed first.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

We have the cosmic signs, Jesus returns, destroys the sinners, and then raptures us.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

See the wicked are removed from among the just. Both groups dealt with at the same time with the tares going first. So we have the sun dark and then Jesus in the clouds dispencing the wrath of God just as we see in Rev 6 past the 6th seal. The wrath of the Lamb in Rev 6 ends the 7 years beginning the millennium. That is why the rapture is shown (Rev 7) following the wrath (Rev 6). The rapture does not occur until the wrath is over in Rev 6.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isaiah shows Jesus arriving to destroy the sinners out of the land. This is associated with the cosmic signs.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When Jesus is revealed from heaven, just after the cosmic signs/6th seal, He is revealed in fire taking vengence on those that don't know God. In that same day He is also glorified and admired by His saints. Both groups again. And the same sequence of Jesus arriving in wrath to remove the sinners or tares. So at the end of the seals it is over because the wrath has been dispenced following the 6th seal. At the end of the trumpets it is over because Christ is reigning at the 7th trumpet. If He is reigning the wrath has already been dispenced making the 7th seal and trumpet occur together.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The 7th vial follows Armageddon at which Christ is at to defeat the AC which is another view in Rev 19 of Jesus dispencing the wrath of God. So the 7th vial occurs just following the return of Christ as well. The 7th of each (seals/trumpets/vials) occur at the same point in time because they all occur following the wrath of the Lamb.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

When Jesus is revealed from heaven, just after the cosmic signs/6th seal, He is revealed in fire taking vengence on those that don't know God. In that same day He is also glorified and admired by His saints. Both groups again. And the same sequence of Jesus arriving in wrath to remove the sinners or tares. So at the end of the seals it is over because the wrath has been dispenced following the 6th seal. At the end of the trumpets it is over because Christ is reigning at the 7th trumpet. If He is reigning the wrath has already been dispenced making the 7th seal and trumpet occur together.

Let me ask you this, how much time is envolved in the dispencing of God's wrath?

If He is reigning the wrath has already been dispenced making the 7th seal and trumpet occur together.

I believe He reigns and we reign with Him while He poors out His wrath over a very short space of time (30, 45 or both added together for 75 days).

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

Let me ask you this, how much time is envolved in the dispencing of God's wrath?

I think that at least more than 5 months since the torment from the locusts lasts 5 months. I consider the locust plague as part of God's wrath. I suspect that the entire ministry of the two witnesses (3 1/2 years) may dispence the wrath of God trying to bring as many to repentance as possible prior to Jesus returning to finish the wrath at Armageddon.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

I believe He reigns and we reign with Him while He poors out His wrath over a very short space of time (30, 45 or both added together for 75 days).

I am guessing you get that from Daniel 12?

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Who is the Blessed waiting for the 1335th day in Dan 12:12 then?

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Who is the Blessed waiting for the 1335th day in Dan 12:12 then?

the 144,000

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

Jesus taught that the resurrection would be on the last day.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Everyone who believes in Jesus rises on the last day according to Jesus. The 144,000 are in a seperate resurrection from the last day resurrection according to your viewpoint. Where do you find a pre-last day resurrection in the bible? There would have to be two seperate resurrections can you show me two resurrections near the beginning of the millennium; one before the wrath and one after the wrath?

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

How can the 144,000 be the firstfruits if they are the last fruits raptured?

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

How can the 144,000 be the firstfruits if they are the last fruits raptured?

Hi Seeker,

I just don't believe they get raptured, I believe they go into the mellinium at the Last Day.....the Day of the Lord....and that (Day of the Lord) begins AT the sounding of the seventh trump.

The wrath of God(the bowls) occur at the very beginning of the Day of the Lord that continues for 1,000 years.

They will be IMO protected completely through God's wrath and enter unharmed into the mellinium.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

I just don't believe they get raptured, I believe they go into the mellinium at the Last Day.....the Day of the Lord....and that (Day of the Lord) begins AT the sounding of the seventh trump.

The wrath of God(the bowls) occur at the very beginning of the Day of the Lord that continues for 1,000 years.

They will be IMO protected completely through God's wrath and enter unharmed into the mellinium.

Having the 144,000 enter into the kingdom alive would seem to contradict these verses.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul says that we shall not all sleep but we "all" will be changed. Flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It would appear that the kingdom begins at the 7th trumpet. The 144,000 would have to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible to enter the kingdom. That's what scripture seems to indicate anyway. Everyone including the 144,000 are raptured at the 7th trumpet which is the last day before the millennium.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

Paul says that we shall not all sleep but we "all" will be changed. Flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It would appear that the kingdom begins at the 7th trumpet. The 144,000 would have to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible to enter the kingdom. That's what scripture seems to indicate anyway. Everyone including the 144,000 are raptured at the 7th trumpet which is the last day before the millennium.

hi Seeker,

I said they wouldn't be "raptured", I never said they wouldn't be changed and put on incorrupt glorified eternal bodies.

They will be changed and enter the mellinium from the earth in that state IMO.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

They will be changed and enter the mellinium from the earth in that state IMO.

If they are changed and then enter the millennium they would be changed with everyone else at the 7th trumpet unless there is some other place that scripture shows the 144,000 being changed. The 7th trumpet is after God's wrath because at the 7th trumpet Jesus begins to reign. The millennium begins at the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Peace,
Seeker

[bchandler]

I was praying some time ago, asking the Lord to give me insight to see when his wrath begins.

The spirit spoke to me as clearly as I have ever heard,
Spirit: "Where do I declare my wrath?" (i was stunned for a moment...)
Me: Well people i am studying with say it starts at the sixth seal.
Spirit: "But when do I say it starts?"
Me: i don't know, let me look

I reread Revelation. When i got to the sixth seal i realized that Neither God, Jesus, nor any of his angels declares his wrath at the sixth seal. Man declares it according to John's record, and they run to hide themselves.

I kept reading...

When I got to the area between the seventh trumpet and first bowl judgment i saw that immediately after the wheat harvest and the harvest of the "grapes of wrath" before the first bowl is poured out, a messenger of God... an angel declares the final seven judgements to be the "undiluted anger/wrath of God".

Considering that the Spirit asked me this question as directly and plainly as someone standing over my shoulder, i found this information both startling and confirming that the Spirit had indeed sent me on this journey of discovery, and that it was important enough for me to know it that direct communication was warranted. (This has only happened one other time in my life, though i wish it was every minute of every day.)

Today I have no doubt when God's wrath is... the rest of the judgments and plagues are God's last ditch effort to bring as many as possible to repentance, while chastising those who will not yield or are attacking his people.

[shorttribber]

I was praying some time ago, asking the Lord to give me insight to see when his wrath begins.

The spirit spoke to me as clearly as I have ever heard,
Spirit: "Where do I declare my wrath?" (i was stunned for a moment...)
Me: Well people i am studying with say it starts at the sixth seal.
Spirit: "But when do I say it starts?"
Me: i don't know, let me look

I reread Revelation. When i got to the sixth seal i realized that Neither God, Jesus, nor any of his angels declares his wrath at the sixth seal. Man declares it according to John's record, and they run to hide themselves.

I kept reading...

When I got to the area between the seventh trumpet and first bowl judgment i saw that immediately after the wheat harvest and the harvest of the "grapes of wrath" before the first bowl is poured out, a messenger of God... an angel declares the final seven judgements to be the "undiluted anger/wrath of God".

Considering that the Spirit asked me this question as directly and plainly as someone standing over my shoulder, i found this information both startling and confirming that the Spirit had indeed sent me on this journey of discovery, and that it was important enough for me to know it that direct communication was warranted. (This has only happened one other time in my life, though i wish it was every minute of every day.)

Today I have no doubt when God's wrath is... the rest of the judgments and plagues are God's last ditch effort to bring as many as possible to repentance, while chastising those who will not yield or are attacking his people.

agree, the bowls are God's wrath because that's what the Word of God plainly declares.

[shorttribber]

If they are changed and then enter the millennium they would be changed with everyone else at the 7th trumpet unless there is some other place that scripture shows the 144,000 being changed. The 7th trumpet is after God's wrath because at the 7th trumpet Jesus begins to reign. The millennium begins at the 7th trumpet.

I agree that they are changed when we are changed. But the seventh trumpet is not after God's wrath, the Word of God is clear, the wrath of God begins at the bowls.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber&bchandler,

the Word of God is clear, the wrath of God begins at the bowls

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The wrath is also after the 6th seal as well at the 7th trumpet. Christ has began to reign over the kingdoms of earth at the 7th trumpet which is before the vials/bowls. Christ does not begin to reign on earth until after Armageddon which is the conclusion of the wrath of God. The 7th seal/trumpet/vial all end at the same point in time; when Jesus begins to reign. We can see that the wrath of God occurs in conjunction with the cosmic signs in the OT.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

The cosmic signs occur before the great and terrible day of the Lord which is the wrath of God.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here at the 6th seal are the same cosmic signs that both Isaiah and Joel speak of. These signs occur just before the day of the Lord according to them. Following the 6th seal is the wrath of God dispenced by Jesus. Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengence on sinners.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That is exactly what Rev 6 shows with the wrath of the Lamb. Jesus also lists the cosmic signs in association with His return.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All tribes of earth mourn when they see Jesus returning because He is returning with the wrath of God at His disposal as shown in Rev 6. Jesus begins to reign over all the kingdoms of earth at the 7th trumpet. Jesus does not reign until after the wrath is finished upon His return. The 7th trumpet occurs after the wrath because Jesus has defeated all His enemies and is now reigning over the earth. The 6th seal is followed by the wrath of the Lamb not people thinking it was the wrath it says it was the wrath.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The words say that the day is come or has arrived it does not say that they think it might be the day. The 7th of each (seal/trumpet/vial) occur at the same point of time when Jesus reigns over the earth.

Peace,
Seeker

[bchandler]

Look again... in rev. 6 it is MAN declaring God's wrath is come... it is NOT GOD, or any of his messengers. It is not anyone authorized to speak for God.

after the seventh trump, it is a being declaring by God given authority, what God wants declared... HUGE difference!!!

[shorttribber]

The words say that the day is come or has arrived it does not say that they think it might be the day. The 7th of each (seal/trumpet/vial) occur at the same point of time when Jesus reigns over the earth.

I have said before that the seven trumpets overlap seals 4-6, so I agree the wrath occurs at the END of the sixth seal.

I have said the seals are CODENSED and ROLLED TOGETHER tightly as a scroll.

Christ does not begin to reign on earth until after Armageddon which is the conclusion of the wrath of God.

Do you have scriptural proof of this? I believe He rules and reigns at the beginning of his wrath, at the beginning of the DAY of the Lord.

Jesus does not reign until after the wrath is finished upon His return.

Proof?

Following the 6th seal is the wrath of God dispenced by Jesus.

I agree.

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

Look again... in rev. 6 it is MAN declaring God's wrath is come... it is NOT GOD, or any of his messengers. It is not anyone authorized to speak for God.

after the seventh trump, it is a being declaring by God given authority, what God wants declared... HUGE difference!!!

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Whose authority moved every mountain and island out of their places?

Peace,
Seeker

[bchandler]

seriously seeker... you are going to deliberately dance around the facts like this?

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great ones, and the rich ones, and the commanders, and the powerful ones, and every slave, and every freeman hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains.
Rev 6:16 And "they said to the mountains" and to the rocks, "Fall on us," and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
Rev 6:17 because the great day of His wrath has come; and who is able to stand?

FACT, it is MEN who are stating the day of God's wrath has come... that doesn't make the MEN right!!!

After the 7th trump, it is GOD who declares his wrath via an agent authorized to speak on his behalf... AKA and ANGEL!

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Was the sun turned black, moon as blood, and stars falling? Was there a great earthquake? Did heaven depart as a scroll? Was every mountain and island moved? If in fact these things happen at the 6th seal as scripture shows then what do you think peoples reaction might be?

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It is very obvious the wrath of the Lamb because the sun is black now. They see that and I am sure it strikes fear in their hearts. A great earthquake with every mountain being moved out of its place. This is not their thoughts these things happen at the 6th seal.

Peace,
Seeker

Edit to Add: Oh and I almost forgot who is it that opens the 6th seal? His authority suffices in my book.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

The words say that the day is come or has arrived it does not say that they think it might be the day. The 7th of each (seal/trumpet/vial) occur at the same point of time when Jesus reigns over the earth.

I have said before that the seven trumpets overlap seals 4-6, so I agree the wrath occurs at the END of the sixth seal.

I have said the seals are CODENSED and ROLLED TOGETHER tightly as a scroll.

Christ does not begin to reign on earth until after Armageddon which is the conclusion of the wrath of God.

Do you have scriptural proof of this? I believe He rules and reigns at the beginning of his wrath, at the beginning of the DAY of the Lord.

Jesus does not reign until after the wrath is finished upon His return.

Proof?

Following the 6th seal is the wrath of God dispenced by Jesus.

I agree.

The first proof you asked for is found at the 7th trumpet at which time Jesus begins to reign over the kingdoms of the world.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

There is no doubt that at this point Jesus begins to reign on earth.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

These first five trumpets are certainly judgments of God.The 5th trumpet is a selective judgment against the sinners who are there alongside those with the seal of God on their foreheads.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Four angels are loosed to slay a third of mankind. Angels are commanded directly by the Lord our God. These trumpet judgments are part of the wrath of the Lord which at the 7th show Jesus reigning over all the earth. Jesus reigns from Jerusalem.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In your scenario we have all the trumpet judgments above and then Jesus begins to reign on earth and then after he begins to reign from Jerusalem he unleashes another wave of judgments in the form of vials/bowls. Why is Jesus unleashing the bowls upon His own kingdom?

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

The first proof you asked for is found at the 7th trumpet at which time Jesus begins to reign over the kingdoms of the world.

I agree, but the bowls of God's wrath FOLLOW the sventh trumpet IMO.

These first five trumpets are certainly judgments of God.The 5th trumpet is a selective judgment against the sinners who are there alongside those with the seal of God on their foreheads.

Judgements yes, wrath no.

Four angels are loosed to slay a third of mankind. Angels are commanded directly by the Lord our God. These trumpet judgments are part of the wrath of the Lord which at the 7th show Jesus reigning over all the earth. Jesus reigns from Jerusalem.

This is only your opinion, the bible does not declare they are wrath.

In your scenario we have all the trumpet judgments above and then Jesus begins to reign on earth and then after he begins to reign from Jerusalem he unleashes another wave of judgments in the form of vials/bowls. Why is Jesus unleashing the bowls upon His own kingdom?

To cleanse the earth and all humanity of sin, to make all things new at the START of His reign. To show His might and power as he destroys and consumes everything that has opposed Him and His Kingdom.

[shorttribber]

Daniel 7:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

cont.

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

cont.
that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

cont.
Reread vs 22

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Now read this........and answer HOW can a destruction and consumation NOT FOLLOW the possesion of the Kingdom by Christ and his saints?

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

The consumation and destruction occurs sometime during a 75 day period of the BEGINNING of the Day of the Lord at the BEGGINING of Christs reign WITH the saints.

[shorttribber]

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Two CONSUMATIONS or one?

Daniel 7:

25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

AFTER the saints are given into the hand and overcome by the Loser, AFTER the 3.5 year Great Trib., AFTER the seventh trump the saints possess the Kingdom and THEY SHALL TAKE AWAY the Losers DOMINION and CONSUME and DESTROY it unto the END............WITH Christ in His New Kingdom.

cont. Daniel 7
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.





The consumation occurs AFTER Christ and the saints Possess the Kingdom.

[Seeker]

Hi shorttribber,

To cleanse the earth and all humanity of sin, to make all things new at the START of His reign. To show His might and power as he destroys and consumes everything that has opposed Him and His Kingdom.

Jesus does all that before the start of His reign.

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



Sin and evil could have never made it into the kingdom in the first place. No flesh could be in the kingdom.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Both good and evil grow together until the harvest. At the harvest/end of the world the angels are told to "first" gather the tares and bind them in bundles to burn. In the interpretation it says as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire so shall it be at the end of this world. Jesus sends forth His angels and they gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity. Then (after the tares are gathered) the righteous shall shine forth in the kingdom. The parable says the tares are gathered first and the interpretation shows all things and people that offend (tares) removed leaving the righteous to shine forth in the kingdom. All evil is removed leaving only righteousness to inherit the kingdom.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

The saints take the kingdom from the AC.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The AC makes war with the saints and prevails against them until the Ancient of days (Jesus) came and judgment was given to the saints and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. The saints can only possess the kingdom after Jesus begins reigning. They inherit the earthly kingdom from the AC who controls it until Jesus defeats him at Armageddon. Evil is totally defeated/gathered at Armageddon and then the reign of Christ begins.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The AC speaks great words against God and wears out the saints for 3 1/2 years. But the judgment will sit and they (saints) shall take away his (AC) dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. The kingdom of Satan is defeated and given to the saints when Jesus returns.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

See the sinners are defeated and then the kingdom is established for the saints. You have it just the opposite. Scripture shows in all cases evil being removed prior to the saints inheriting the kingdom. Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengence on those that don't know God. He destroys evil/AC upon His arrival to earth. The earth is torched and the cosmos destroyed at the same time upon His return. Evil has already been dealt with prior to the kingdom being established.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Here it is again. As was the days of Noah so will also the coming of Jesus be. They knew not until the flood came and took them all away. So shall also the coming of Jesus be. Evil was taken away/drowned in the days of Noah leaving only Noah and 7 others to inherit the new earth. It will be the same when Jesus returns. The tares are removed and then the kingdom is established. If you still can't see it then it really does no good for me to continue to show this to you. The scriptures are clear in that evil departs first. I guess we will just have to disagree on this one.

Peace,
Seeker

[shorttribber]

and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

And THEY shall take away his dominion..........TO consume and TO destroy AFTER they possess the Kingdom, simple as that.

[shorttribber]

Sin and evil could have never made it into the kingdom in the first place. No flesh could be in the kingdom.

That's not what the scriptures say, this is what the scriptures say.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

They shall be CONSUMED in it, they shall not INHERIT it.

[shorttribber]

The AC makes war with the saints and prevails against them until the Ancient of days (Jesus) came and judgment was given to the saints and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. The saints can only possess the kingdom after Jesus begins reigning. They inherit the earthly kingdom from the AC who controls it until Jesus defeats him at Armageddon. Evil is totally defeated/gathered at Armageddon and then the reign of Christ begins.

They don't inherit the earthly kingdom, they inherit a Heavenly Kingdom, they CONSUME and DESTROY the earthly kingdom of the Loser WITH Christ at the beginning of the Day of the Lord.......when Christ will be PRESENT WITH (parusia) the saints AT His Heavenly, everlasting Kingdom.

The reign of Christ and His Kingdom begin BEFORE Armegeddon, and He reigns WITH the saints right through it for a thousand years IMO.




Rev 19:
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

How long would you say this takes?

Maybe minutes or a few days, but IMO it could take up to 75 days.........now do you understand what I'm saying?

[shorttribber]

Hi seeker,

need to add this too


Rev19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
2 Tim 4
1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Why would Jesus yet need to JUDGE and MAKE WAR if ALL of His JUDGEMENT against ALL evil had ALREADY been accomplished? Does the scripture say He shall JUDGE the quick and the dead BEFORE His appearing and Kingdom or.........AT.........His appearing and Kingdom.




Mal 3
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Who shall stand, who shall adide when He comes?.....He will make a SWIFT JUDGEMENT against the ungodly AT His appearing......AT......His coming, not BEFORE His coming.

Rev6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Read this carfully....Thy wrath IS (about to occur)come....Same as Rev 6. The time of the DEAD......TO BE.......JUDGED....AND....DESTROY them who destroy the earth.

again, what does 2Tim 4:1 say?
2 Tim 4
1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

His JUDGEMENT in the form of WRATH occur......AT......His comming, not BEFORE it.

again

[The Orange Mailman]

Sin and evil could have never made it into the kingdom in the first place. No flesh could be in the kingdom.

I Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

[shorttribber]

Sin and evil could have never made it into the kingdom in the first place. No flesh could be in the kingdom.

I Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Seeker wrote:
Sin and evil could have never made it into the kingdom in the first place. No flesh could be in the kingdom.

That's not what the scriptures say, this is what the scriptures say.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

They shall be CONSUMED in it, they shall not INHERIT it.

There's a difference between entering and inheriting OJ.

[Seeker]

Hey Orange,

Nice to see you here this forum is a good fit for you ya know...lol. Happy holidays my friend hope the winter is treating you ok what is it rain, hail, sleet, and snow...

Peace,
Seeker

[Exit40]

Hi Seeker. Just discovered this thread. I like it. I too have had some confusion about pre-wrath and post-trib. As they overlap in some areas I couldn't define myself as either, but rather both in a way. Post wrath as a title alone pretty well describes my belief which is living Saints will be here to witness the end of this world. I would like to explore the distinction between the wicked, the workers of iniquity, or seed of satan by any other name, as opposed to the just, or meek who inherit the earth. It seems you would agree there must be someone to inherit the earth for the Millenium ? My thoughts are there will be people such as the just and the meek, who maybe do not fully know the Lord but have the desire for Him as expressed here....

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you.

I think this is during the Millenium, at least near the beginning. I guess what I am getting at is there will be survivors of this age passing into the Millenium but not everyone who survives the indignation, wrath, will be raptured.

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Once we are at the unmistakable signs at the end of this age do you think it will be possible for 'anyone' to call on the Name of The Lord and be saved ? I think not, or the wicked could be just that right up to the very end and seem to almost cheat their way into the Kingdom. Same for the marginal, or nominal, or those in name only. There must be qualifications for Salvation at that point it seems. Certainly the wicked perish, many others also, but someone must survive to physically inherit the Kingdom to be ruled by Christ and His Priests and Judges, those Faithful who have been ressurected and raptured. The conditions for being raptured have to be laid out somewhere for us, and in detail. They are, of course. Primarily they are whole heartedly Love God first and above everything, and follow His Commandments. Even so as we individually consider the rapture and our Blessed Hope what is it we find in ourselves that we think qualifies us. At what point are we righteous enough ? In my discussions with pre-tribbers I have been enlightened to the fact that belief in Christ alone is enough to be called righteous, but even the demons believe in Christ, and tremble. So I don't think that is enough, nor do I think I can qualify myself, for if I judge myself by the standard of Christ I must throw myself into hell. So it is the lord Himself who judges and accounts worthy.

If I may use a famous rapture verse in this context...

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Watching means two things here, one is watching for the events of Prophecy, the other, and more importantly I feel,to guard our Faith, and to the best of our ability keep pure. If we are accounted worthy, by Our Christ alone, we may live through His wrath and indignation. Further we must also be accounted worthy to stand before the Son of man which I interpret to be the actual rapture afterwards.

Here is another issue that has come up for me. Not issue really, but something I have thought about many times. There are two fires from the Lord. One is the destroying fire, the other the purification by fiery trial, the actual rebirth of our Spirits and hearts into Him. The destroying fire is already evident from Scripture already presented here. The other is when the Lord pours out His Spirit on us....

1Pe 4:12 ¶ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

Beloved: beloved, esteemed, dear, favourite, worthy of love

think it not strange : to receive as a guest, to entertain, hospitably

concerning : you

the fiery trial : a burning

which is to try you :a trial, proving

as though some strange thing : to receive as a guest, to entertain, hospitably

happened : to come together, meet with one

unto you : you

When this happens at the pouring out of His Spirit on us we are reborn, purified by a fire, which seems like a real burning fire inside us, the circumcision of our hearts, during which we get to see much to our own disgust our fallen nature and complete lack of worth, after which His overwhelming Grace, which quickens us, causes us to cry out for Him which was pierced, as for our only Son, O my Lord, whom we now entertain with much hospitality as we come together and meet with The One, Our Christ, who now lives with us.

Beloved, not by our own worth, but by His calling, and our answering in Faith ...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Happy are we who are called and receive Him thus, it almost doesn't matter whether we come with Him or meet Him as He comes. What matters is we seek Him and His will for us, and to do it for Him, with Him, in deepest Faith.

God bless You

David

[Seeker]

Hi David,

Just discovered this thread.

Really that's funny. I just always thought you knew it was here so never really mentioned it...lol. Anyway Post Wrath was the best description I could think of to describe it.

I think this is during the Millenium, at least near the beginning. I guess what I am getting at is there will be survivors of this age passing into the Millenium but not everyone who survives the indignation, wrath, will be raptured.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

This establishes the timing for us and is when Jesus dwells in Jerusalem which would be during the millennium. What we know for sure is that the saints inherit the earthly kingdom at the beginning of the millennium. Scripture is pretty clear about that.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The wicked are removed from among the just leaving the just/wheat/saints to inherit the kingdom. So all who are defined as wicked/tares/evil are destroyed at the end. They aren't the ones you speak of I am just trying to sort them all out into their respective groups. We have two groups they are not; wheat and tares. That is supported scripturally. But we have verses such as Zec 8:23 that you note which seem to show those living outside of Lord needing to learn about him during the millennium.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Zec 8:20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
Zec 8:21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
Zec 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


Children of Ammon obey them while the Egyptian tongue is utterly destroyed. Isa 66 speaks of nations bringing their brethren(Jews?) as an offering. Maybe Isaiah 66 speaks of the same thing you found in Zec 8 where 10 men want to take part in the return of God's people to Him as an offering? It would seem to me to be near the beginning of the millennium as you suggest. The only conclusion that I come to is that these people are left over out of the nations. Not Christians but not Antichrist either. They are the ones who will be taught of Christ and God during the millennium.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Those resurrected prior to the millennium serve the function as administrators/kings and priest/teachers. Who is there to teach? Possibly these that we see in Zec and Isaiah. There is still aging/death in the millennium (Isa 65:20, Zec 8:4-5) and all enemies/death aren't defeated until the end of the millennium. The millennium may function as a sort of re-education period. The release of Satan at the end being the final exam. There is still sin as Satan rounds up the nations to try and attack Jerusalem after the 1,000 years. Then after that we see the new heaven and new earth in Rev 21:1. Just a theory but I believe it is supported with scripture. This group of leftovers didn't confess Christ but must of also had not taken the MOB or they wouldn't have been in millennium to start with. All evil is destroyed as Jesus arrives (Matt 13 and other scriptures). Anyway that is about as speculative as I like to get. Good subject by the way as it needs discussed and maybe we can shed some light on the 1,000 years. They are hazy at best in my view currently.

Once we are at the unmistakable signs at the end of this age do you think it will be possible for 'anyone' to call on the Name of The Lord and be saved ? I think not, or the wicked could be just that right up to the very end and seem to almost cheat their way into the Kingdom.

Oh I think it is possible that they may be saved I just don't think they will swallow their pride and do it. God offers repentence during His wrath.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Mar 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.


Peace,
Seeker