Restrainer

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Restrainer

Postby Pretzelogical on Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:26 am

I wrote up this response to a post, and then realized I was in the pre-trib forum.
:bag:
Since I deleted the post there, why not post it here to open the topic of who the restrainer is?
So, what are your thoughts on how the restrainer works?

Obviously, only God can restrain evil. God now dwells in His saints who are His body whom He purified and strengthens to battle evil, thus restraining the evil in the world.
God said to work while there is still light, which means you won't be able to work when it is dark. Scripture says it will be dark at the last trump, the end of the tribulation. God promises to refine and protect the saints as they go through trials until the end.

No taking of the Holy Spirit out of saints, for He "is with us always, unto the end of the age", a promise.
No taking of the Holy Spirit from the earth. The Holy Spirit will be very active through the entire tribulation!
No removing the saints since they, by the Holy Spirit, battle principalities girded in the full armor of God through trials and tribulations unto the end of the age. If the Holy Spirit is there, so are the saints, for that is where God dwells.

2 Thessalonians 2 is about restraining apostasy by holding steadfast.
The false teaching that the second coming of Christ had already taken place was confusing the saints.
Pauls states clearly why Christ has not yet come:
First - the falling away
Next - man of lawlessness revealed
Finally - man of lawlessness presents himself as God.

Since the saints had not seen these three events, Christ had not yet come. The teaching otherwise was false. Stand firm against this false teaching. Division in the church over Christ's return is the result unless the false teaching is repented of and the teachers of it are saved or restored. No way is false teaching to be tolerated in the gathering of the saints.

Paul then says their holding fast (being steadfast, grounded in the truth, obeying the commands) is proof that the falling away had not yet happened. When the saints see they are but a remnant in the churches that preach false doctrine, then you know the next thing will be the revealing of the man of lawlessness. Paul makes it clear that believers will be here to see all three of these signs given by Jesus. Restraining the false teaching is restraining the evil one.

Restrains. Not removes. Held back until the right time.
God restrained the rains after the flood. And yes, rain continued to fall from the time of Noah until now.
God restrained the evil one world leader project at Babel. And yes, the people are continuing to gather under one world leader as at Babel.
Noah was still there, protected in God's care. God will do "just like in the days of Noah", said Jesus.
The saints are the restrainer, yes, holding back the ones who fall away, and just go with the flow until gone.
It is the Saints that God uses through His Holy Spirit indwelling the believers to strengthen them in times of trouble. He promises this over and over. He sets us up on high places, but does not take us out of the battle.

We are commanded to be alert! God even used a donkey to restrain Balaam. So I am confident He can even use us in these days of so many Balaams. He already has used you saints of truth to restrain false teaching in my life.
Thank you!
:hugs:
What thinkest thou?
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Re: Restrainer

Postby jgilberAZ on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:30 am

Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling. Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days. And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb. And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength. For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me. Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(Dan 10:8-21)


emphasis mine

I think this passage gives us a good clue as to what's going on in the spiritual realm. The angels (fallen and righteous) are battling each other. The heavenly angels are restraining the demonic angels.

We see this confirmed in the Revelation:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(Rev 12:7-8)


I think this shows support for the assertion that Michael is 'he who restrains.' At least, it's something, anyway. The assertion that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit acting in and through the church has no scriptural support whatsoever.

- Jeff
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Pretzelogical on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:55 am

The assertion that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit acting in and through the church has no scriptural support whatsoever.


Paul's letters speak of this tremendously. We are Jesus hands and feet doing His will. You know this.

At the time of Christ, the Holy Spirit came and left. The disciples and others thought it was time for the Kingdom. Therefore, they had no idea the Holy Spirit was to someday come stay and work in the body of Christ. It was not mentioned in the Old Testament, nor did Jesus talk about it until it was near the time.

We are told of numerous times in the Old Testament of angels restraining evil because God commands them to, and they obey. We have now also become soldiers in the battle to restrain evil. Put on the full armor.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:50 am

Restrainer


Hebrews 1:13......But to which of the Angels said he at any time, SIT ON MY RIGHT HAND,
Until I Make Thine Enemies Thy Footstool?

14.....ARE THEY NOT ALL MINISTERING SPIRITS....Sent forth to Minister FOR THEM WHO SHALL BE HEIRS
OF SALVATION?

Angels are ministering spirits for them who shall be Heirs of Salvation?
Angels carry out the prayers of the saints.....they are ministering Spirits to the heirs of salvation....

Michael is not the restrainer....we are...
The church by the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives restrain evil...
Jesus said......I Give You My Name...
You cast out the Devil.....
In Jesus Name we the Believers Have Power over Evil.....IN Jesus Name..
But the church does not believe this.....this is part of the falling away...
we loose our power because of UN Believe...

Heb. 12:1....THEREFORE....we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things Which We have Heard, lest at any time we should Let Them Slip (Or run out as leaking vessels)

2....FOR if the Word Spoken by angels was stedfast.....and every Transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward:

3.....HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE...If we neglect so Great Salvation:
which at the first began to be Spoken by The Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4....God also bearing them Witness, Both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles,
and Gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own Will?

5.......FOR UNTO THE ANGESL HATH HE.......NOT... Put in subjection the world to come where of we speak...

6....but one in a certain place testified...Saying
WHAT is Man, that thou art mindful fo him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7....Thou madest him a Little lower than the angels;
thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst
SET HIM OVER THE WORKS OF THY HANDS:


8.....THOU hast put ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.
FOR IN THAT HE PUT ALL IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIM,
He Left Nothing That is Not Put Under Him..
But NOW..We See not yet all things put under him...

9....BUT WE SEE JESUS....
Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,
crowned with Glory and Honour;
that He by the Grace of God should taste death for every man.


John 16:23....An in that day ye shall ask me nothing.
Verily, verily I say unto you...
Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in My Name, He will give it you.

24...Hitherto...have ye asked nothing in My Name.....ASK, and ye shall Receive,
That your Joy May Be Full....

26....AT THAT DAY Ye shall Ask in MY Name:
and I say Not unto you, that I Will Pray the Father for You:

27....For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me,
and have Believed that I Came Out from God.....

33...These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace,
In the World ye shall have Tribulation
But be of Good Cheer....I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD....

Mrs. B
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Re: Restrainer

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:00 pm

To tag on Jeff's post, I believe that Michael is the restrainer, but the passage he quotes shows that angelic beings work through human government, see Daniel 11:1. So once Michael stops restraining, it will allow the government to cease to function to restrain evil. In fact, the government will be the agent of evil.

The wording in II Thess. 2 shows a singular male. Paul also writes that they knew who it was without elaborating. The way I see it, Paul would have only done this if there were some other place in scripture where we could go to read about this singular male personage. Of course Daniel 12 would enter into the mind of anyone who had studied prophecy. Gabriel had just been explaining the appearance of antichrist, now Daniel stands up, then the resurrection occurs. So Paul specifically left this individual unnamed because they knew which passage of scripture to look in to find him.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. Of course, ultimately the restrainer is God. But God works through different agents to restrain evil.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Finaldash on Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:14 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:now Daniel stands up, .

You meant Michael stands up, right?
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:25 pm

Re: Restrainer.....


Abraham entreated the Lord.....if there be 50 will you not destroy Sodom and Gomorah...
If there be 40?
if there be 30?
If there be 20?
If there be 10?

If there had been righteousness in Sodom and Gomorah God would not have let Judgment come...
But only Lot and His daughters escaped....

We that Walk righteously with God.....restrain judgment...
The same with the flood...
Noe and His wife and three son and there wife were saved....
but world Judgment came because every man's heart was on evil continuesly.....

When the Church falls away from the Truth...Then opens the door for the a/c
Then God Judgment..
We are the Restrainers.......
But falling away opens the door for judgment...

Ps. 7:8....The Lord shall Judge the people:
Judge me, O Lord, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me....

9....Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end;
but establish the just:
for the righteous God Trieth the Hearts and Reigns...

10....My Defence is of God, which saveth the upright inn Heart.

11....God Judgeth the Righteous, and God is angry with the wicked evey day...

12....If he TURN NOt, he will whet his sword;
he hath bent his bow,
and made it ready.

13....He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death;
he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors..


When our sins are full then comes Judgment......

Mrs. B
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Re: Restrainer

Postby The Orange Mailman on Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:57 pm

You meant Michael stands up, right?


Well, maybe they both stand up? :alrighty:

Just kidding. Big time typo on my part. Heh Heh.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Finaldash on Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:23 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:
You meant Michael stands up, right?


Well, maybe they both stand up? :alrighty:

Just kidding. Big time typo on my part. Heh Heh.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman


:typing: All of the sudden I feel a little smarter :bag:
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Pretzelogical on Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:59 am

:lol:
If it weren't for you smart ones on here, I would not be addicted to this website!

Believers are the restrainers by keeping the word of God. The power is in the word made flesh who dwells among us. Jesus said the first thing to happen is there will be a falling away - the apostasy. Jesus says nothing about an angel restraining evil taken away. Jesus said those who hold to the truth will fall away.

The government has been causing evil all along. Look at the building of the tower of Babel. That is why the angel of death came to Egypt; their evil king pronounced the very judgment on the firstborn. It was Moses and the faith of the people to follow him in obeying the Passover that restrained the evil. The angel was of death, not restraint.

Paul is encouraging the believers to stand firm in the faith and walk in it. Knowing an angel restrained the king of Persia has nothing to do with the false teachers of whom Paul was warning. The people wanted to believe Rome was the enemy, but Paul insists the enemy is in their own camp - those false teachers! Paul repeatedly makes it clear that the true enemy to the believers is disbelief of truth and Paul is saying they are to stand up against teachers who lie and distort the word of God. "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees."

The government is not the enemy. False teaching is the enemy that we are to stand firm against. Yes, the government gets into every wicked way, and it is the believers who restrain its evil to purify it. When the believers fall away, nothing restrains false teaching.

When Jesus tells the disciples to "beware", He does not ever mention the government, but false teachers. Believers are to restrain the false teaching.

Job 36:21
Beware of turning to evil, which you seem to prefer to affliction.

.Matthew 7:15
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Matthew 10:17
"But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;

Matthew 16:6
And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

Matthew 16:11
"How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

Matthew 16:12
Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Mark 8:15
And He was giving orders to them, saying, " Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."

Mark 12:38
In His teaching He was saying: "Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places,

Luke 12:1
Under these circumstances, after so many thousands of people had gathered together that they were stepping on one another, He began saying to His disciples first of all, " Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Luke 12:15
Then He said to them, " Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions."

Luke 20:46
"Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets...
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:42 pm

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)


1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

emphasis and color coding mine


Here are verses 6 and 7 in the Greek:


ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Β΄ 2:7 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

6και νυν το κατεχον οιδατε εις το αποκαλυφθηναι αυτον εν τω εαυτου καιρω

7το γαρ μυστηριον ηδη ενεργειται της ανομιας μονον ο κατεχων αρτι εως εκ μεσου γενηται


A more literal translation would be:

6και νυν and now το κατεχον that which holds οιδατε you saw (know) εις το αποκαλυφθηναι αυτον to the revealing of himself εν τω εαυτου καιρω in his own time

7το γαρ μυστηριον for the mystery ηδη ενεργειται is already at work της ανομιας of iniquity μονον ο κατεχων only he who holds αρτι now (see G737) [will do so?] εως εκ μεσου γενηται until out of/from the middle he becomes, i.e. come into existence (see G1096)

G1096 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1096&t=KJV
G737 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G737&t=KJV&sf=4
2 Thessalonians 2 http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#top

2 Thessalonians 2 (continued)

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


edit: corrected translation for the word αρτι
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Seeker on Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:51 pm

Hi watching,

The KJV gives me the sense that "time" is the restrainer of sorts. Why he is held back is that it is not his time to be revealed; he wasn't alive back then. Since he must be revealed before Christ returns Paul was reassuring them they hadn't missed Jesus. The Greek you show seems to say that as well. Who holds him back I would have to say would be Micheal as per Daniel 12:1. Satan has been persecuting Israel for eons but the ultimate persecution will be at the hands of the AC who nearly wipes Israel off the face of the earth. He can't exist until right before the return of Christ as shown in Daniel 7.

Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The "other horn" is the AC and he makes war with and prevails against the saints until the Ancient of days came (God) and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom. This means that the AC's kingdom ends at the return of Jesus. He has power for 3 1/2 years over the saints.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


His power ends in Dan 7:26 when judgment sits and they shall take away his dominion to destroy it. And the kingdom and dominion will be given to the saints of the most High. This timestamps when the AC walks the earth. So Paul reminded them that he was being restained until his time came to exist basically. Or that is what it looks like to me anyway just reading the words for what they say.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:57 am

Hi Seeker,

The understanding that I am getting is that what is being held up is not the revealing of the AC but the return of our Lord, Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him. It appears to be held up by two things:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Not because Satan has any power over God, of course, because he doesn't, obviously. But it seems to me that God is allowing evil to reach it's fullest, making the setting ripe for the appearance of the man of sin.

2 Thessalonians 2

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


This also seems to be the pattern described in Daniel 8:



Daniel 8:19-27

19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.


Just as a side note:

I'm not sure, however, if all of the verses in the book of Daniel are referring to the AC since there will also be an FP who will also meet his end:


Revelation 19:11-21

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


emphasis to above quotes mine
Last edited by watching on Sat May 08, 2010 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Mrs. B on Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Restrainer....

can't you see....
That as long as we the Church give a Good Witness.....we restrain evil..
But when the church falls away........what keeps evil from taking over the whole world...
Our ministery is to preach this gospel to the Whole World....that all who hear and Believe are saved...
and righteousness holds back Judgment....


Word Example.....now a prophsey that God gave Abraham.....

Gen. 1513....And he said unto Abram,
Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs,
and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them Four Hundred years;

14.....And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I Judge:
and afterward shall they come out with Great substance...

15....And thou shalt go to thy Fathers in Peace;
thou shalt be buried in a good old age.(talking about Abraham)

16....BUT IN THE FOURTH GENERATION they shall come hither again:
now notice....
for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.....

The sins of the amorites are not yet full...

But when their sins are full then Judgment came to the amorites.

so...Matt. 23:37.....O Jerusalem Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and Ye Would Not!

38...BEHOLD, your house is left unto you desolate.....

39....For I say unto you,
Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord....

When their sins were full and they rejected the Promise Seed...Jesus
Judgment came upon Jerusalem and the Jews have been scattered..for two thousand years..
but God is doing a Short Work..
Giving the Jews a chance to repent and turn to Him..
But Judgment is at the Door.
When ye see Jerusalem surrounded by armies
Then Know that the AOD is at the Door..
Judgment....World Judgment....
For then shall be Great Tribulation....
such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor ever shall be....

When the church Falls away from preaching Jesus...the Christ...The Only Begotton Son of God..
and we follow another Jesus.....another christ.....
and we believe in a false gospel.....that is a falling away gospel...

John said...
I John 2:18....Little Children it is the last time:
and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
even now are there many antichristis;
whereby we know that it is the last time..

19....THEY WENT OUT FROM US, but they were not of us:
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us...

20....BUT YE HAVE AN UNCTION...FROM THE HOLY ONE, and ye know all things...

When you are in right relations with Jesus ....You Know It..

I know when I Am On Schedule......right where I am suppose to be..
and I know when I Am not....
We have to examin ourselves.....the Spirit will bare Witness to our spirit....and we know....when we are where we are suppose to be in the Lord and when we are not.........If we are honest with ourselves........we know.

World Judgment is at the door...I believe and it is time we sought the Lord...and made ourselves ready....amen

Mrs. B
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Yogi on Sat May 08, 2010 11:54 am

Paul answered this in the very same sentence he spoke of it! The problem is that there were no punctuations in the original text. So I'll add a bit for you.

2Th. 2:6- And now ye know what withholdeth,... that he might be revealed in his time.

TIME is what is withholding these things from happening. He was just saying that it wasn't TIME yet.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby AtHisFeet on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:33 am

I believe that he (the Restrainer) is the angel Michael and not the church or the Holy Spirit. The church is never referred to as a "He" in scripture. I found the following website very helpful:

http://endtimepilgrim.org/restrainer.htm
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Yogi on Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:57 am

Michael is mentioned NOWHERE in this passage...TIME is!
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Re: Restrainer

Postby shorttribber on Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:11 am

Yogi wrote:2Th. 2:6- And now ye know what withholdeth,... that he might be revealed in his time.


Hi Yogi,

If "time" is "he" then the sentence would read "revealed in Times Time"? Sounds strange but could make sense, is time ever referred to in scripture as a he? I don't know, just asking.
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Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Yogi on Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:56 am

In this case, most are misreading it. Not sure why you didn't understand how I explained it. Let me try the NLT for you:

And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes.

And here it the KJV with some helpful markings:

And now ye know what withholdeth....(it is so) that he might be revealed in his time.

Nowhere did I say time =he. What I do say is time = WHAT is withholding.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby shorttribber on Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:15 am

I didn't read all the other posts, could be ya never know, we'll see soon I guess.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Restrainer

Postby daffodyllady on Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:11 pm

I really don't understand why this is a point of great intrigue. God is and was in control. Therefore He is the One who restrains, no matter who else is allowed to restrain or loose, under His ultimate direction. If God uses the church, Time itself, or the Holy Spirit to restrain... yet He did not say that being "taken out of the way" means "taken out of the world" as some have said it means. All it really says is that God is in control, and will restrain (by some means or other, and probably unseen to us) until it is time for the Antichrist to come.

Just my 2 cents
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Re: Restrainer

Postby shorttribber on Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:00 pm

daffodyllady wrote:I really don't understand why this is a point of great intrigue. God is and was in control. Therefore He is the One who restrains, no matter who else is allowed to restrain or loose, under His ultimate direction. If God uses the church, Time itself, or the Holy Spirit to restrain... yet He did not say that being "taken out of the way" means "taken out of the world" as some have said it means. All it really says is that God is in control, and will restrain (by some means or other, and probably unseen to us) until it is time for the Antichrist to come.

Just my 2 cents


:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:20 pm

The "what" and the "he" that is "holding" the Lord's coming is explained in the text.

That's why after explaining it, Paul says,"and now you know............."

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [Please note: text literally says, "until out of the middle he becomes," i.e. comes into existence]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=4&t=KJV#conc/7
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1096&t=KJV

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:30 am

I just want to add that in the original text, it does not say [that day shall not come]. That part was added in by the translators.

Here is the Young's Literal Translation:

2 Thessalonians 2 (Young's Literal Translation)

1And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,

2that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

3let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

4who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God --
[the day doth not come].

5Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?

6and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,

7for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now [will hinder] -- till he may be out of the way,

8and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,

9[him,] whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,

10and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,

11and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

12that they may be judged -- all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.

13And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,

14to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ;

15so, then, brethren, stand ye fast, and hold the deliverances that ye were taught, whether through word, whether through our letter;

16and may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father, who did love us, and did give comfort age-during, and good hope in grace,

17comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.


I think the most important point of the above message, from what I'm understanding, is most likely, not so much whether or not there might be a rapture before the gathering of all the saints upon the second coming of the Lord, but to not be deceived if anyone tells you that Christ has come, if not first the following, as has been described above in 2 Thessalonians 2.

This also corresponds with what Jesus said in Matthew 24.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24&version=KJV

As to whether or not there will be a rapture before the rapture, I do not know for certain. :dunno:

What I do know for certain, however, is that if, by any chance, there is one, you will not need anyone to inform you about it.

In any case, my hope is in the Lord's coming, and that alone, however and whenever that may be.

That is what I'm watching for, anyway.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Christ_Our_Hope on Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:29 am

I have heard three answers in the past:

1. The Holy Spirit.

2. Government.

3. And more recently an angel.

I believe that #3 is the best answer. We see in Jude where Michael contended with Satan over the body of Moses. Power is given by God to an angel (whether its Michael or not I will not dispute) who is restraining evil from swamping this world and the Saints. Once that angel is given the order his hand is removed.

#1 doesn't old water anymore from the viewpoint that "well once the Holy Spirit is removed then so are we!"

#2 wont work because the restrainer is termed a "he" and not an "it" as in the term government.

I think that we need to remember that its not about us - its about the Lord and final authority. We are part of this equation but we are talking about an age old war. And honestly the Holy Spirit in this case could be correct if you look at it from the point that he was doing a specific task. "taken out of the way" is not the same as "taken out of the world."

And the final comment here is to never argue over it. There is a restrainer but in the end he is working under the orders of our Lord and HE is the restrainer and has held evil in check for thousands of years through his power - the task was delegated to another in this case.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Yogi on Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:38 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Yogi wrote:2Th. 2:6- And now ye know what withholdeth,... that he might be revealed in his time.


Hi Yogi,

If "time" is "he" then the sentence would read "revealed in Times Time"? Sounds strange but could make sense, is time ever referred to in scripture as a he? I don't know, just asking.
:blessyou:



The verse says "now ye know what withholdeth.... not whom
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:24 pm

Restrainer.....


The Church is the restrainer......we restrain evil....but when the Church falls away from the Truth of the Gospel..
the the Antichrist is revealed.....

The Church restrains evil......but when Our Sins are full.....then the Antichrist is revealed....


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Re: Restrainer

Postby daffodyllady on Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:44 pm

watching, that needed to be added in, because of the difference between the way we structure our English sentences, and the way Greek is structured. Read it without the addition, and it leaves a sentence fragment in English. We think the way our mother tongue trains us, so we need that addition, for the sentence to make sense.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:20 am

Hi daffodyllady,

You helped me to realize something I had not realized before.

I was taking the words ἐὰν μὴ based on their individual meanings.

ἐὰν (if) μὴ (not)

But, apparently when these words are placed together it means (except)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3362&t=KJV

So maybe the text is not as ambiguous as I thought it might be.

In any case, here is the literal translation of verse 3:

2:3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας


μή ([let] not) τις (he/she/it) ὑμᾶς (you) ἐξαπατήσῃ (should deceive) κατὰ (by) μηδένα (any) literally: no/nothing τρόπον (means/manner) ὅτι (that/because/since) ἐὰν μὴ (except) individually: if not ἔλθῃ ( come)(the) ἀποστασία (apostasy) πρῶτον (first) καὶ (and) ἀποκαλυφθῇ (should be revealed)(the) ἄνθρωπος (man) τῆς (of) ἁμαρτίας (sin), ὁ (the) υἱὸς (son) τῆς (of) ἀπωλεία (perdition)
please note: I added the word "should" to the translation of ἐξαπατήσῃ and ἀποκαλυφθῇ because these words are in the subjunctive mood, meaning that the potential for the action of these verbs is based on the circumstances.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/3

Now just the English:

Do not let anyone deceive you by any means that/since/because/for if not come the apostasy first and be revealed the man of sin, the son of perdition
(note: not sure how to translate ὅτι in this case)

Anyway, as you can see, it is not any less fragmented in the Greek as it is in the English when doing a literal translation.

So, basically, from what I'm understanding, it is saying to not be deceived [into believing that the day of the Lord has come] if not/except first the apostasy and the man of sin be revealed. (Of course, the revealing would have to be as described in the following verses.)

So, when you say it that way, it does not seem incomplete, even in the English.

That's why I'm thinking that the main focus is on to not be deceived, if not first.......................

Because that is what the text literally says.

(In other words, it is as complete, or incomplete in the Greek as it is in the English, when you do a literal translation.)

Do you see my point?

Actually, I don't know if I even have a point, other than to just take the text at it's literal meaning, without reading anything more into it.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:30 am

Hi Christ_Our_Hope,

Why would Paul say, "and now ye know what withholdeth" if he was referring to the Holy Spirit, or an angel, or anything else, other than what he just said?

Btw, :wavewelcome: to the board.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:43 am

Hi Yogi,

If time is "restraining" the revealing of the man of sin, then why would Paul say,

2 Thessalonians 2:6 (King James Version)

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-6.htm

(Actually, I think "his own time" is a better translation of ἑαυτοῦ καιρῷ.

See parallel translations above.)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/6
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1438&t=KJV

Besides, is the revealing of the man of sin what is being held up, or the coming of the Lord?

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby 4givenmuch on Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:57 am

We are also the light of the world. Darkness can't prevail with light. The Holy Spirit is in us and when we are gone, the light is gone. Michael is the angel for Israel.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Yogi on Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:20 am

Hi watching,

I've read all these things from long ago. For a minute, put down the translations and hear Paul speaking as though he were sitting right next to you. There are things said by people that are implied in their sentences but never said so it can be recorded on the page. We do this all the time in conversations.

Therefore it isn't found in translations but in understanding how people speak. It isn't always explored, but in this case when it is, the answer becomes apparent.

See if you can "hear" paul saying it like this: "And now you know what is restraining,(and here it is...) that he may be revealed in his own time.

In modern times I might say it like this: "So now you understand what is holding him back, its just that he has to be revealed in his time.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby daffodyllady on Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:19 am

Watching, do you see how the addition of those words, "That day shall not come" really do not detract from the meaning of the verse? Therefore, I do not think it should be considered "adding to those things that are written." After all, when translating from one language to another, a little interpretation is necessary, in order to arrange the words and make the meaning clear.

As you showed, the truth is in plain sight in the Word of God, if we forget all the human teachings that have been handed down to us through tradition and books. The truth does rock our boat sometimes, but I would rather have my boat rocked, than to believe falsehood!
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:06 am

Hi Yogi,

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but let me just say first of all, that I do not think it is very advisable to be reading things into the text that are not written in the text.

In any case, regardless of that, you still have not answered my question from earlier, which was, "How could 'time' possibly be holding back the revealing of the main of sin, if Paul said, the following?"

2 Thessalonians 2:6 (Young's Literal Translation)

6and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,


Besides this, what needs to be understood, first of all, is.........What is being held back to begin with?

Was Paul referring to the man of sin being held back? Or the coming of the Lord?

What is the main focus of this passage?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20thessalonians%202&version=KJV

If you ask me, the main focus is to not be deceived that the Day of the Lord has come unless two things happen first: the apostasy, and the man of sin being revealed.

So again, I ask you, What is being held back?

What were the Thessalonians eager for?

Was Paul explaining to them why the man of sin is being held back?

I don't think so, based on the context.

Do you?
Last edited by watching on Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:25 am

Hi daffodyllady,

I don't think "that day shall not come" being added into the text would detract from it's meaning, unless there is a key distinction of someone telling you that the Day of the Lord has come if the two things mentioned above have not happened, verses the Day of the Lord actually coming.

Because, obviously, as we now know from the text in question, the Day of the Lord will come when the above two things happen.

So, if the above two things happen and someone tells you that the Day of the Lord has come, then you are not being deceived if you believe them.

But if someone tells you that the Day of the Lord has come, and the above two things have not happened yet, then you will be deceived if you believe them.

But does that necessarily mean that the Day of the Lord will not come for anyone in any way shape or form unless those two things happen first?

I don't know. :dunno:

That's why I, personally, would not take the liberty to add in "that day shall not come" into the text.

Now do you understand my point?
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:06 am

4givenmuch wrote:We are also the light of the world. Darkness can't prevail with light. The Holy Spirit is in us and when we are gone, the light is gone. Michael is the angel for Israel.


Hi 4givenmuch,

What needs to be understood, I think, regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is that the word "taken" is not actually anywhere in this verse in the original Greek.

Here is the King James translation:

2 Thessalonians 2:7 (King James Version)

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


Now here is the Greek:

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Β΄ 2:7 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

7το γαρ μυστηριον ηδη ενεργειται της ανομιας μονον ο κατεχων αρτι εως εκ μεσου γενηται


The Greek text does not say, "...........until he be taken out of the way."

The Greek text does say, "............until out of the middle he becomes."

You also have to understand that the word meaning "become" in the Greek (γίνομαι) has more versatility of meaning than the word "become" does in the English.

Here is the definition for the word γίνομαι:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1096&t=KJV
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Re: Restrainer

Postby Yogi on Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:20 pm

watching wrote:Hi Yogi,

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but let me just say first of all, that I do not think it is very advisable to be reading things into the text that are not written in the text.

In any case, regardless of that, you still have not answered my question from earlier, which was, "How could 'time' possibly be holding back the revealing of the main of sin, if Paul said, the following?"

2 Thessalonians 2:6 (Young's Literal Translation)

6and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,


Besides this, what needs to be understood, first of all, is.........What is being held back to begin with?

Was Paul referring to the man of sin being held back? Or the coming of the Lord?

What is the main focus of this passage?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20thessalonians%202&version=KJV

If you ask me, the main focus is to not be deceived that the Day of the Lord has come unless two things happen first: the apostasy, and the man of sin being revealed.

So again, I ask you, What is being held back?

What were the Thessalonians eager for?

Was Paul explaining to them why the man of sin is being held back?

I don't think so, based on the context.

Do you?


It's not harsh at all to me. You must remember that translating is sometimes an art as well as a science. I don't think I am reading anything into it at all. I am just not getting stuck on the mechanics and actually trying to "hear the voice".

The context must be followed back to the beginning of the chapter to see what is being held back...the day of Christ! That Day won't come until other things happen first. So it wasn't time yet.

The verse in question is a re-capping of what had just been said. I hope I don't sound harsh but by straining at the words you may be missing the simplicity of what is being said.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:08 pm

Hi daffodyllady,

daffodyllady wrote:watching, that needed to be added in, because of the difference between the way we structure our English sentences, and the way Greek is structured. Read it without the addition, and it leaves a sentence fragment in English. We think the way our mother tongue trains us, so we need that addition, for the sentence to make sense.


I know that I already responded to your above comments, but I would just like to make a correction to my reply, because the conclusion which I had reached in my last post, in an attempt to understand the scripture verse in question, was to basically disregard a small seemingly unimportant preposition because that was the only way to understand the scripture with it's inclusion and without adding anything else to it.

However, after thinking about it, I feel it was egregiously erroneous for me to do that; in fact, maybe even worse than filling in the blank, when there appears to be a blank, which is basically what has been done to this verse with most translations, other that the literal translation.

Because, the truth of the matter, is that this is a fragmented sentence in the original Greek to begin with.

It might have been complete if it didn't have the word ὅτι in it.

But the fact of the matter is that it does.

So, basically what I had done by the conclusion I had drawn in my last post was to make sense of the sentence, as if the preposition were not there. But that is incorrect, because the preposition is there, so that means that part of the sentence is missing.

Whether this was done purposely or not, I do not know.

All I know is that this is just as much of a fragmented sentence in the Greek as it is in the English, when a direct translation is done.

The translators obviously did not want to have an incomplete sentence, so that is why they filled in the blank with what would be the most logical conclusion.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't seem like I'm :deadhorse: but I really feel like I need to correct my mistakes as soon as I realize them, especially when it comes to scripture.

In any case, here, once again, is the translation I had done earlier of the verse in question.

watching wrote:μή ([let] not) τις (he/she/it) ὑμᾶς (you) ἐξαπατήσῃ (should deceive) κατὰ (by) μηδένα (any) literally: no/nothing τρόπον (means/manner) ὅτι (that/because/since) ἐὰν μὴ (except) individually: if not ἔλθῃ ( come) ἡ (the) ἀποστασία (apostasy) πρῶτον (first) καὶ (and) ἀποκαλυφθῇ (should be revealed) ὁ (the) ἄνθρωπος (man) τῆς (of) ἁμαρτίας (sin), ὁ (the) υἱὸς (son) τῆς (of) ἀπωλεία (perdition)
please note: I added the word "should" to the translation of ἐξαπατήσῃ and ἀποκαλυφθῇ because these words are in the subjunctive mood, meaning that the potential for the action of these verbs is based on the circumstances.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/3


And here, to the best of my understanding, is how it would translate in English :


Do not let anyone deceive you by any means for if not come the apostasy first and be revealed the man of sin, the son of perdition..............


edit:

Or you could say:

Do net let anyone deceive you be any means for except come the apostasy first and be revealed the man of sin, the son of perdition...........


So, as you can see to omit the word ὅτι which I translated as for would not make any sense.

Because the only way it could make sense that way, is to translate ἐὰν μὴ as except instead of if not, which is perfectly fine, however, it would not make any sense to say to someone, "Do not let anyone deceive you, unless they are deceiving you with the truth," which is basically how I interpreted it in my earlier post. [Well, actually, it did make sense to me, at the time, but I don't think anyone would ever actually say it that way; especially not God (being that this is the word of God) because it's never okay to deceive anyone, even if it does turn out to be true.]

Anyway, the more I think about it, the more I realize, that it would be rather silly to say it that way, which is why I felt the need to come back and correct my error, since I now realize that the word ὅτι should not be disregarded, no matter how small or insignificant it may seem.

So, to summarize my view regarding this, I just want to say, that to the best of my understanding, verse 3 is an incomplete sentence in the Greek, but I still do not feel as though we should finish the sentence the way we think it ought to be finished, just because it is incomplete. Because how do we know whether it was deliberately meant to be incomplete, or not?

:dunno:

Anyway, that is the only point that I'm trying to make.

I know that it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but I really do have a reason for what I'm saying.

Because, once again, how do we know whether, or not, it was meant to be that way for a reason?

Do you understand what I mean?

edited
Last edited by watching on Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:48 am

I just want to add one more thing, and that is that I am not in anyway criticizing the King James translators or any other translators for adding in, "that day shall not come," because, as I said, before, that is the most logical way to conclude the sentence based on the context. And the purpose for translating the Bible was so that it would make sense. So, obviously, if the purpose is for the Bible to make sense to the reader, the translation should not have any incomplete sentences.

The only reason I'm even bringing the fact up that, "that day shall not come" was not actually in the text is for our purpose here only, which is to try to study the meaning of the text in more of an in depth manner, versus just a casual reading of the text.

That's all.

I just wanted to make that clear.
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Re: Restrainer

Postby watching on Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:54 am

One more thing, I'm not saying that verse 3 needs to be a complete sentence, I'm just saying within the entire context, it is incomplete if "that day shall not come," or something to that effect, is not added in, somewhere.
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