No Escape from the Sting

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No Escape from the Sting

Postby FreeInHim on Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:54 pm

In Revelation 9:4 we’re told that the demonic locusts will have the power to hurt “those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

I’ve always assumed that we Christians will escape such a fate, despite being here, because we’re of the body of Christ. But further study sheds a different light on this.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Rev. 7:2
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev. 7:3

That we are sealed to God with the Holy Spirit is evident in II Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13, and Eph. 4:30. But this type of seal, or sealing, is distinctly different than the type of seal described in Rev. 7:3 and 9:4, wherein the seal is a distinguishable mark in the recipients’ foreheads. Furthermore, and equally plain, is the fact that the recipients of this protective seal are distinctly described as being Israelites, not Gentiles. Rev. 7:4-8

So I have to conclude that being Christian will not spare us from the sting of these demonic locusts, nor any other tribulation for that matter. Of all the Tribs coming, for some reason I’ve always had it in my head that Christians would be spared the horrible sting from these “locusts.” Probably an after-effect from reading the Left Behind series.

Thoughts, anyone?
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby Sue-M on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:09 am

FreeinHim, this is the way I have always thought about it. These are Jews who are being marked here. Why are they marked? I believe it's because they are not saved yet. Either they are not saved yet or this is the exact time that their eyes are opened up and they get saved (en mass). And they are being protected by God during a time when they need to be protected.

Now, why is the Church not mentioned? Are we forgotten about? Well, you know, Jesus said that He would never leave us or forsake us. So, it can't be that we are forgotten about. And God has also told us that we are not appointed to God receive God's Wrath. So, it can't be that we are going to endure any part of God's Wrath.

The only way I can figure this is that this Scripture is only mentioning those that need to be protected. And just because Scripture doesn't mention those that have already been saved, doesn't mean that those people are not protected. Either that or the Church has been raptured by that time and we are no longer here.

I tend to think that it's more likely the last scenario that is happening in Revelation 9:4. I tend to think that the Rapture has just happened and those Jews who are destined to be saved, are marked to protect them from what is coming. And these Jews will survive into the Millenium. In my thinking, if the Rapture has happened, at that moment, there is no longer anyone on the Earth that believes in Jesus. And God will send extra protection to the remanent of Israel.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby Sue-M on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:44 am

I do believe there is a difference between "God's Wrath" and "Tribulations". Jesus did say that we will have Tribulations. And many Christians are enduring tribulations right now, with the economy collapsing all around us. I believe that the "Tribulations" are coming from man rejecting God and what God has said as to how we are suppose to live our lives. I believe "God's Wrath" is coming directly from God.

Now, what is happening in Revelation 9, is coming from Heaven to Earth. And in verse 4, we clearly see that God is giving the orders to these "locusts". And they are also being given some kind of "power" from God also. I guess, power that they usually don't have. (If these are actual "locusts", which I am not ruling out.) So, I do believe that this is part of God's Wrath.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby CaryC on Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:24 pm

Hey,

I would assume that the actual "sealing" takes place between chapters 7 and 9. Between,Chapter 7 they still need to be sealed so don't do anything yet, and Chapter 9 do this to all who aren't sealed. Assumption, something happened in between?????????? The sealing.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby crmann on Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:57 pm

Hi All....

On the word "wrath"...

Ephesians 2:3
We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and by nature we were children under wrath, as the others were also.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 1:18
For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth,

Romans 2:8
but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness;

Romans 5:9
Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things God's wrath is coming on the disobedient.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these, God's wrath comes on the disobedient,

The wrath we will not experience is God’s wrath on those who reject God’s Salvation. It is the eternal wrath of eternal separation from the Love of God. An eternity in hell and damnation. It has nothing to do with the experiences of those living during the coming tribulation.

It also has nothing to do with a rapture.

We are ordained to either receive God's wrath or God's Salvation.

Blessings,

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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby crmann on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:03 pm

FreeInHim wrote:In Revelation 9:4 we’re told that the demonic locusts will have the power to hurt “those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

I’ve always assumed that we Christians will escape such a fate, despite being here, because we’re of the body of Christ. But further study sheds a different light on this.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Rev. 7:2
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev. 7:3

That we are sealed to God with the Holy Spirit is evident in II Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13, and Eph. 4:30. But this type of seal, or sealing, is distinctly different than the type of seal described in Rev. 7:3 and 9:4, wherein the seal is a distinguishable mark in the recipients’ foreheads. Furthermore, and equally plain, is the fact that the recipients of this protective seal are distinctly described as being Israelites, not Gentiles. Rev. 7:4-8

So I have to conclude that being Christian will not spare us from the sting of these demonic locusts, nor any other tribulation for that matter. Of all the Tribs coming, for some reason I’ve always had it in my head that Christians would be spared the horrible sting from these “locusts.” Probably an after-effect from reading the Left Behind series.

Thoughts, anyone?


Hi, FreeInHim...

Here's an interesting take on this by a Messianic Jew:

http://www.archangel.net/viz/200602/20060218-0001.shtml
Some interesting graphic can be seen at the link give above.
Revelation 9:1 to 9:11
Notes on John's Revelation
An Apocalypse of Jesus
February 18, 2006

In analysing these verses, I'll be using the King James Version (KJV) of the text because it's generally the most widely known of the translations from the original Koine Greek -- the language of the dream transcription penned by John on the island of Patmos. Although it's possible that his personal copy was actually written in Aramaic, no record of that document remains. Some proof to this claim, however, is represented in the interpretations below.

'Koine' is associated with meaning 'common' in Greek, but this stems from the fact that it emerged from the eastern realms of Greece and is often associated with Macedonia and therefore was the object of some derision by the inhabitants of the more westerly cities. Greek literature was usually composed in the Attic Greek form, but the prevalence of Koine Greek increased dramatically following the conquests of Alexander. This language was natural for John not only because its use was so widespread, but also because he spoke a version of the language that was a unique hybrid of Greek and Aramaic.

Notes: Aramaic itself was a hybrid of Hebrew and Syriac using the Hebrew alphabet and comprised of roughly 80% Syriac word content transliterated into Hebrew letters. The remaining 20% was pure Hebrew. The same development has occurred hundreds of times throughout the history of the Jews, even to the extent that dozens of Spanish dialects, including Catalan, are actually Hebrew hybrids. It is ultimately possible that Koine Greek was also developed in a similar fashion though native Greek and Macedonian speakers, not being familiar with the Hebrew character set, would have been inclined to use their own form of the Cyrillic alphabet to render it.

As with all prophecy, what follows is a product of three times; the time of its recording, the time of its interpretation, and the time of its fulfillment.

It should be noted that the failure of a prophesied event to manifest itself in reality, as with Jonah's prediction of the destruction of Nineveh, is not necessarily evidence of a flawed vision or seer. The Nineveh prophecy was very straightforward when compared with the visions of Daniel or John, to which--in the absence of hindsight--rigorous interpretation must be applied in order to fathom the most likely meaning.

Revelation 9:1 to 9:11

9:1. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

The star. A star that falls from heaven is often called a "shooting star" or simply, a "falling star". In the Farsi language of Persia (Iran), this is called a "shihab" or "shahab". The government of the Iranian Islamic Republic has, very fittingly, taken this name for their missile program. Their current series of missiles are named Shihab I, Shihab II and Shihab III. The Shihab IV, a longer-range missile capable of reaching much of Europe, is currently under development.

You can see, by reading the verses of this chapter, that the words "angel" and "shooting star" are used interchangeably. This is reasonable, especially where ancient mystical cultures are concerned. A person from that time would have very little knowledge of technology; the grist mill was then still considered a very remarkable invention. Missiles, aside from spears, were unknown.

The fifth angel. Iran is reported to have one more significant missile in its arsenal -- the air-launched, nuclear-capable, KH-55 cruise missile, which was apparently supplied covertly to Iran by Russia. It has a range of more than 1,000 miles and a sophisticated guidance & targeting system. Janes Defence Weekly refers to the Iranian KH-55 as the X-55, but it's rumoured that the country's Revolutionary Guard commanders refer to it as the Shihab V...the fifth "shooting star" or "angel".

The key. Just as knowledge can act as a key to unlock a prophecy, technical knowledge can be used as a key to unlock the secrets of the universe. In this case, a technological weapon is the key that opens the door to the bottomless pit of nuclear power. That's not just a poetic way of describing the dark side of atomic energy, but an apt technical description of the power and geometricity of matter.

The bottomless pit. A hole that's infinitely large could logically contain an infinite amount of stuff. Theoretically, the smaller the hole, the less stuff it should be able to contain. Now, imagine an impossibly small hole packed with an impossibly huge amount of stuff. Well, there's nothing impossible--or even improbable--about that...it's called an atom. It's not quite "infinite" or "bottomless", but it's the closest thing we can find to approximate it.

If you were to dig a hole in any spherical aggregation of matter, whether a ball, a planet, a sun, or an atom...that hole could not be bottomless because it would eventually exit the other side of the object. As a matter of fact, it becomes less and less "bottomless" as you pass the centre-point of the mass. The only way to be "bottomless" is to penetrate deeper and deeper into the "centre" of the object. There is no better description that I can think of for describing the breaching of the boundary that constrains the ultra-intense power of the atom.

9:2. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Needs no explanation. We've all seen movies of the immense, sky-darkening clouds generated by this sort of weaponry; a genuinely dangerous host of fallen angels.

9:3. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

While it makes sense that locusts might flee such a phenomenon, if they could, how would such meek insects be accorded the power of scorpions? I suppose they could mutate, but they would sooner die.

I think it's fairly clear that John's not talking about ordinary locusts here, but some type of war machinery that flies in stages like a locust horde, moving from one area to the next, but which can sting like a scorpion.

But who--in their right mind--would fly a helicopter through the fallout of a nuclear blast? They would have to be suicidal.

"The only tool against the enemy that we have with which we can become victorious are martyrdom-seeking operations and, God willing, our possession of faithful, brave, trained and zealous persons will give us the upper hand in the battlefield."

• Mohammad-Reza Jaafari, Brigadier-General
• Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps
• Commander, "Lovers of Martyrdom Garrison"
• February 13, 2006

General Jaafari has been bragging that, at last count, he has more than 50,000 suicide operatives ready and willing to gain early entrance to Paradise. This doesn't include the country's paramilitary Bassij units whose members are claimed by officials of the regime to be in the millions. Now, some of this can certainly be ascribed to bravado...or machismo...or some other cool sounding word for "talkin' big", but this is the same government that has been sponsoring suicide operations in various locales for the past quarter century. When it comes to suicide, these guys have authored the most definitive text on the subject. And they've written it in red ink.

9:4. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Since John describes these craft variously as locusts or scorpions, he must draw a distinction between the "things" from the vision and the everyday insects with which his average reader would be familiar. He does it by stating that these "creatures" aren't interested in eating the shrubs and grass of the best pasture land. Some interpreters have taken this verse to mean that the "beasts" will be environmentally conscious, à la... "Ooh, don't hurt the earth, or anything green." That's not it at all. He means that they are only given one instruction: "Attack the Infidel!"

9:5. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The flying scorpions attack successfully and then are instructed to persecute the infidels for five months. I understand that the sting of a scorpion is similar to a highly acute burning sensation.

9:6. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

I don't think that there's any sort of "good" torture, but this sounds like the worst kind.

9:7. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

The word "shape" is one translation, but "form" is a better one. Like horses assembled for battle; arrayed as a group, armoured, and representing uniformity of purpose and action. These are not horses, though, but "flying scorpions". The faces of men will be seen at the front. And above them... an impressive circle of powerful metal.

9:8. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

Two translation issues here: This should be "manes" not "hair" to be consistent with the descriptive horse theme. And, as in a certain part of Zechariah, where the word "woman" is routinely substituted for "fire" (Hebrew/Aramaic:ishah vs. a'isha or isheh), the same thing is happening here.

These horses will have manes of fire, i.e., they will be military jet helicopters, with fire flowing out behind them.

And, like lions, they will be equipped to do battle.

9:9. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

Once again: armoured. And their blurred, locust-like wings would beat a loud rhythmic sound, like war chariots and their heavy horses charging to battle. (These verses really are beautifully written, but considering the content, it's a cruel sort of beauty.)

9:10. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Long tails, like scorpions...or helicopters. And, like the scorpion, possessed of a blade at the tip. Imagine a blade so sharp that it can cut the air. The duration of five months is restated, in association with the word "power".
• Now, let's see... that's the fifth angel, the Shihab V, which is really the Iranian X-55, but really the KH-55. Oh yes, and they'll be prosecuting their action for five months -- or so the verse keeps telling us. Interesting. If Revelation wasn't already so gung-ho on 6-6-6, there might be a case for 5-5-5 as an important feature of the story. The fundamentalist Islamic voting code is also usually 5-5-5, as demonstrated in the recent Iraqi election where that number received more votes than any other. But, I digress...

9:11. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

The king of all these weapons is the atomic. It is the door to the bottomless pit. In Hebrew, the word Abaddon means "destruction" or "destroyer", but phenomena are often named for the place at which they occur, like Hiroshima.

That name is synonymous with atomic destruction, as will be Abaddon.

Dr. Robert Oppenheimer, upon witnessing the first successful atomic explosion, mouthed to himself (somewhat regretfully) this short passage from the Baghavad Gita; "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."

Until next time,
JEREBOA
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby FreeInHim on Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:01 pm

Sue-M wrote:Now, why is the Church not mentioned? Are we forgotten about? Well, you know, Jesus said that He would never leave us or forsake us. So, it can't be that we are forgotten about. And God has also told us that we are not appointed to God receive God's Wrath. So, it can't be that we are going to endure any part of God's Wrath.

The only way I can figure this is that this Scripture is only mentioning those that need to be protected. And just because Scripture doesn't mention those that have already been saved, doesn't mean that those people are not protected. Either that or the Church has been raptured by that time and we are no longer here.

I tend to think that it's more likely the last scenario that is happening in Revelation 9:4. I tend to think that the Rapture has just happened and those Jews who are destined to be saved, are marked to protect them from what is coming. And these Jews will survive into the Millenium. In my thinking, if the Rapture has happened, at that moment, there is no longer anyone on the Earth that believes in Jesus. And God will send extra protection to the remanent of Israel.


I appreciate your viewpoint, Sue-M, but I'm a post-Tribber, which is why I posted this query here. I'm hoping to hear from other post-Tribbers. Really not seeking a debate.

Thanks for understanding.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby FreeInHim on Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:15 pm

crmann wrote:9:7. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

The word "shape" is one translation, but "form" is a better one. Like horses assembled for battle; arrayed as a group, armoured, and representing uniformity of purpose and action. These are not horses, though, but "flying scorpions". The faces of men will be seen at the front. And above them... an impressive circle of powerful metal.

9:8. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

Two translation issues here: This should be "manes" not "hair" to be consistent with the descriptive horse theme. And, as in a certain part of Zechariah, where the word "woman" is routinely substituted for "fire" (Hebrew/Aramaic:ishah vs. a'isha or isheh), the same thing is happening here.

These horses will have manes of fire, i.e., they will be military jet helicopters, with fire flowing out behind them.

And, like lions, they will be equipped to do battle.

9:9. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

Once again: armoured. And their blurred, locust-like wings would beat a loud rhythmic sound, like war chariots and their heavy horses charging to battle. (These verses really are beautifully written, but considering the content, it's a cruel sort of beauty.)

9:10. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

Long tails, like scorpions...or helicopters. And, like the scorpion, possessed of a blade at the tip. Imagine a blade so sharp that it can cut the air. The duration of five months is restated, in association with the word "power".


I've read this theory before and while I admit it's an intriguing concept, I'm not completely convinced. I'd write more but it's late and my mind is becoming mushy. Sorry, and thank you for such a lengthy response, Crmann. I'll look at it more tomorrow.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby FreeInHim on Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:48 pm

I’ve done some more studying on this.

First, the star is Satan being cast out of heaven onto the earth (Luke 10:18, related John 12:31). It is he to whom the key to the bottomless pit is given temporarily.

The key is truly to the bottomless pit, which itself is not an allegory for an atom but a very real spiritual prison for demons (Luke 8:31).

The locusts mentioned remain the enigma. Based on appearance and behavior, it’s clear these are not ordinary, earthly locusts (grasshoppers). Here’s some interesting points to consider:

1. Ordinary grasshoppers lead fairly harmless, solitary lives, eating grasses. But they have the capacity to live a very polar existence when food becomes scarce. They then become gregarious, purposely seeking out others and mutating into what is known Biblically as a locust. This form eats anything green, not just grasses. What’s more, not only do their diet and social characteristics change, so does their appearance. They turn from green to yellow and black. (On an aside note, I have personally witnessed a grasshopper cannibalizing one of its own).

2. Note that in locust form their lifecycle is from May – September ~ 5 months, the same length of time the Rev. 9 locusts are given to torment men on earth.

3. Genetic tampering has gone way beyond plants. What’s being done inside various labs around this country and others is nothing short of an abomination, particularly when human DNA is exploited. I shudder to think what sorts of horrific chimeras secretly exist today. I don’t think it’s outside the realm of probabilities that the locusts spoken of in Rev. 9 are man-made creatures that escape the confinements of some experimental compound. They certainly sound like chimeras.

The king over these locusts would also be Satan, being the angel of the bottomless pit. It would appear his first target will be the unmarked Jews, since the first name given is Abaddon, Hebrew for “Destruction.” The name Apollyon, “Destroyer,” seems to imply that the gentile world will be next to feel the sting.

I think the only chance of escape from this woe, as a Christian, is to pray to our Heavenly Father for mercy and protection.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:38 pm

FreeinHim, just a couple of thoughts from a post -trib perspective. Jesus states in Rev 3 that He writes on us His name and the name of God. It is likely that we are not only sealed with the Holy Spirit but we are marked by God and identified as His with a unique mark, the forehead being a likely place, and this mark does not have to be visible to men (but apparently those of the spiritual realm can see it).

The 144,000 are Jews and they are sealed, apparently becoming christians, and while the time of their conversion is not explicitly stated, it could be deduced by the positioning in the seals, trumpets and bowls. The seals, trumpets and bowls do appear to occur in parallel, they all end with the same event of the thunder, lightning, etc and Jesus' return, which is described at the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl, and as the thunder, lightning, etc occurs at the 7th seal, most likely at that point also.

That Jesus returns at the 7th seal appears to be supported by the 6th seal, which does describe men hiding from the wrath of the Lamb, which does appear to be consistent with the nations mourning, which does occur when Jesus is in the clouds, prior to setting foot on the earth. Zech 12 also appears to describe this, that Israel will mourn for the 'one who ws pierced' when they look on Him, implying that He will be visible, which occurs when He returns in the clouds. It is at that time, when Jesus is in the clouds, prior to His setting foot on the earth at armageddon (described in Zech 14), that Israel accepts Jesus as Messiah and Lord.

This may be what the sealing of the 144,000 is describing, the acceptance of the nation of Israel, the 1/3 faithful remnant that is left alive, accepting Jesus at the 6th seal, when He is seen in the clouds, prior to the wrath being poured out at Jesus' return at armageddon. The description of the angels holding back the 'harm', God's wrath, until the Israel is sealed, would be consistent with God's wrath being held back until Israel mourns for the One who was pierced and says blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

The timing would be consistent with the post-trib perspective, Israel is sealed just before the wrath, which falls at Jesus' return and the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl. And at this point, between the 6th and 7th seal, the great multitude, the 'elect', the saints that go through the latter half of the 70th week, are described in heaven, which they would be just prior to being gathered from heaven by the angels, to Jesus in the clouds, where He is seen by the nations, including Israel who mourns.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:47 pm

So as far as the demon locusts of Rev, christians are protected from their sting, christians are sealed. The demon locusts appear to rise from the abyss at the midpoint of the 70th week, when Satan, the 'star', is cast down to earth. The stinging would appear to occur 3.5 years prior to the sealing of the 144,000, so the Jews are not protected by a seal. Perhaps that is why they are protected in the wilderness for 3.5 years, out of Satan's reach, God defends them even though they are not yet christians (although they soon will be).

The demon locusts have human and non human characteristics, they appear to be a hybrid, which is what the Nephilium were. And Isa 28 does apear to suggest that the Nephilium will be making a comeback at the time the covenant with death is annulled.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby FreeInHim on Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:46 pm

Thank you for your response, 1WW. I completely agree that the event touted as the rapture occurs immediately after the 6th trumpet and just before the 7th, when Christ first appears. And I agree that the seals, bowls, trumpets are all descriptions of the same events.

You cite the message to the Philadelphia church that Jesus says he will write on Christians his name and the name of his God. I’m a bit confused, as I thought we are regarded as the Laodicean church, and are given no such promise because we’re so lukewarm.

Now Rev. 9:4 is very specific in that it states “the seal of God in their foreheads.” In Rev. 7:3 it again is very specific regarding that unique seal, and then in Rev. 7:4 it states very plainly who the recipients of that extraordinary seal are ~ the 144,000 Jews. Rev. 14:1 again confirms this. As far as I can tell, never is there specific mention of Christians having this special seal in their foreheads. I would feel better, at least knowing we’d be spared this particular woe, if you could provide scripture supporting your theory that Rev. 3:12 is saying Christians will be spared that awful sting. However, my understanding of Rev. 3:12 is that the Christians who overcome adversity with their Faith intact will bear his name (be saved eternally, not spared the 5th trumpet or other Trib. chastisements).

Also, I would have to disagree with your take on the timing of the 144,000 conversions, as they are spared the 5th trumpet, which would mean they’re converted prior to the 6th.

If my theory regarding the chimeras proves correct I could certainly accept that they’re demonic in that once the abyss is unlocked the demons released may enter into the chimeras. It’s all just theory on the chimera aspect, though, and I could be completely off.

1WhoWaits wrote:And Isa 28 does apear to suggest that the Nephilium will be making a comeback at the time the covenant with death is annulled.


Can you point out the specific passage that states that?
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:24 pm

FIH, Isa 28 is an interesting passage, it does appear to discuss events at the middle of the 70th week and it does so through what appear to be 'riddles'.

Isa 29 appears to discuss armageddon, when all nations gather against Jerusalem (Ariel) and are destroyed, likely placing Isa 28 as occurring before that time. The passages discusses Ephriam's or Israel's wreath, the pride of Israel and it's 'crown', the city that sits at the head of a valley, which would be Jerusalem. This city is trampled underfoot, which does occur for 3.5 years during the latter half of the 70th week, by the gentiles.

The passage also discusses the covenant with death made by Israels rulers, which will be annulled, which could be consistent with the covenant with the AC. This could place Isa 28 as occurring during the latter half of the 70th week.

The Nephilium were basically chimeras, a genetic anomaly produced by the union of human and non- human fallen angels. In the OT the chimera took the form of giants, but by genetic manipulation they could be made to appear as something else entirely. The chimera were apparently produced by the union of fallen angels and humans, and these angels are now held in 'everlasting chains' until the time of judgement (Jude 6, 2Peter 2). In essence Giants were produced by those now held in chains.

Isa 28: 19 states- 'The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket to narrow to wrap around you. The Lord will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim, he will rouse himself as in the valley of Gibeon- to do his work, his strange work, and perform his task, his alien task.

Now stop your mocking, or your chains will become heavier.'

The bed is to short and the blanket is too narrow when you are too big for them, as in the case of a giant. The case in point being OG of Bashan, whose bed was huge because he was a giant - 'Only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaites. His bed was made of iron and was more than 13 feet long and 6 feet wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites' Deut 3:11 (Og, king of Bashan, one of the last of the Rephaites- Joshua 12).

The battle of Mount Perazim took place against the philistines (associated with the giants-Goliath of Gath, etc.- 2 Sam 21) in the valley of Rephaim (2 Sam 5), the Rephaites being giants-'a people strong and numerous, as tall as the Anakites. Like the Anakites, they too were considered Rephaites...(Duet 2:10).

The valley of Gibeon involved the destruction of the Amorites, some of whom Moses had destroyed just prior to the destruction of Og of Bashan, who also appears to have been an Amorite king. The amorites are later associated with the destruction by large hailstones from God, apparently akin to what occurs at the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl.

It would appear that the 'riddle' of Isa 28 points to giants or chimera, aka Nephilium. Interesting that their destruction is associated with an 'alien' task by God, perhaps a reference to their apearance in the future, which does appear to be the stage Satan is currently setting.

And who would mock God while held in chains, associated with the giants? That would appear to be the fallen angels of Jude and 2 Peter.

Isa 28 would appear to point to the reappearnce of the chimera, which of course will cause sheer terror, as the passage states.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:40 pm

FIH, as far as the sting, if the seals, trumpets and bowls do occur in parallel, as i believe they do, the 5th trumpet occurs prior to the 6th seal, likely 3.5 years earlier. At the time of the 5th trumpet the 144,000 would not yet be sealed on their foreheads, their seal occurs at or after the 6th seal, when Jesus is apparently returning in the clouds.

Therefore the reference to those sealed in their foreheads at the 5th trumpet cannot be the 144,000, they are not sealed until 3.5 years later, meaning that someone else has a seal of God in their foreheads. The only other beings described as being sealed by God are christians, by the process of elimination christians would have to be those who are being referenced at the 5th trumpet.

As far as the rewards of the churches in Rev 2-3, while specific churches are referred to, the rewards listed would appear to apply to all christians, not just the ones alive at the time of John. We will all eat from the tree of life (Rev 22, we will all not be hurt be the 2nd death, we all will rule the nations with Jesus, we will all be dressed in white and not have our names blotted out of the book of life, so we all will have the name of Jesus and God written on us, not just a select few.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby FreeInHim on Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:11 pm

1WhoWaits wrote:And Isa 28 does apear to suggest that the Nephilium will be making a comeback at the time the covenant with death is annulled.

Isa 28 is an interesting passage, it does appear to discuss events at the middle of the 70th week and it does so through what appear to be 'riddles'.

The passage also discusses the covenant with death made by Israels rulers, which will be annulled, which could be consistent with the covenant with the AC. This could place Isa 28 as occurring during the latter half of the 70th week.


Okay, this seems to be at least one source of misunderstanding, I think.

Isaiah 28 isn't alluding to the 70th week at all, neither directly nor indirectly (riddles). This section of prophecy is aimed at various peoples of that time, and it is a pronouncement of doom with the promise of the coming Messiah (28:16) added.

The crown of pride is Ephraim, primarily its capitol Samaria, which was situated on a hill that resembled a crown. The prophet denounces them because they have erred through wine and strong drink. Both priest and prophet have joined the debauchery of the nation. In this case the familiar "precept upon precept, line upon line" is to be taken negatively, not positively. The prophet is quoting the people who are weary of his prophecies and are complaining that his repetitious message is aggravating. Since they refuse to hearken to God's messenger, He will speak to them with another tongue, that of the Assyrians who will take them into captivity.

Also, please note the misunderstanding with Isa. 28:18. The word is disannulled, not annulled. This (28:14-19) is directed to the people of Jerusalem. And your covenant with death will be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. The people of Jerusalem had made a covenant with death by foolishly thinking that a pro-Assyrian alliance would protect them when Samaria fell. In contrast to their covenant, God promises that when the overflowing scourge (the Assyrians) arrives their covenant with them will fail (be disannulled).

1WhoWait wrote:Isa 28: 19 states- 'The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket to narrow to wrap around you. The Lord will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim, he will rouse himself as in the valley of Gibeon- to do his work, his strange work, and perform his task, his alien task.

Now stop your mocking, or your chains will become heavier.'

The bed is to short and the blanket is too narrow when you are too big for them, as in the case of a giant. The case in point being OG of Bashan, whose bed was huge because he was a giant - 'Only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaites. His bed was made of iron and was more than 13 feet long and 6 feet wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites' Deut 3:11 (Og, king of Bashan, one of the last of the Rephaites- Joshua 12).


Because God has established His foundation in Zion, Judah's intended covenant with death shall be disannulled. Thus, their desire to trust in alliances, whether with Assyria or Egypt, shall be disannulled by God Himself.

Such agreements are illustrated somewhat humorously by the bed that is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it, or the covering that is narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. This clever depiction emphasizes the frustration of attempting to rest or sleep in such a manner and illustrates the futility the Israelites will experience in trying to rest upon their man-made alliances. These passages in no way allude to Og of Bashan, or Nephilum.

I'm not equating the locusts of Rev. to Nephilum, as I don't believe there's any connection.

The reference to mount Perazim, and the valley of Gibeon, is to illustrate that in those days it was clear the Lord was on the side of the Israelites. What will make the coming events so strange is that this time when the Lord rises up He will turn against His disobedient children instead of fighting for them. This will be His strange work; His strange act. It's not who the battles were against that is the focal point of the passages, it's who God is against.

1WhoWaits wrote:Therefore the reference to those sealed in their foreheads at the 5th trumpet cannot be the 144,000, they are not sealed until 3.5 years later, meaning that someone else has a seal of God in their foreheads.


Sorry, I just can't argue with Rev. 7:2-4. In fact, based on these verses it seems all too clear the 144,000 actually escape all the woes, not just the 5th trumpet and those thereafter, as nothing was to be hurt on the earth until they were sealed.

I do so appreciate your time and effort in trying to comfort me on this issue, 1WhoWaits. We may not agree on numerous points, but none are salvation issues, so it's all good! :hugs:
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:23 pm

FIH, i would disagree with your assesment, you will find that many prophetic passages have a past and future fulfillment. If Isa 28 has only a past fulfillment then your interpretation could possibly be correct. But the context would suggest otherwise, Isa 29 would be appear to be consistent with armageddon. The enemies of Jerusalem becoming 'fine dust' occurs at armageddon, according to Zech 14. The Lord coming suddenly with 'thunder and earthquake and great noise, with windstorm and tempest flames of devouring fire', would appear to be more consistent with the 'thunder, lighting, rumblings, earthquake, hailstorm' of the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl. The 'hordes of all the nations that fight against Jerusalem' being destroyed would be consistent with armageddon, when all nations gather against Jerusalem (Zech 14, Joel 3).

Can it be determined that there is no future fulfillment of Isa 27, 28 amd 29? Obviously not. If you look at prophetic scripture and see only a possible past fulfillment, you may be missing a significant part of the picture of the future.

And how is it that the understanding of the message of the bed being too short will cause 'sheer terror' if it is some humorus illustration? The latter part of Isa 29 would suggest that there is more in this passage than meets the eye- 'For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll...therefore once more I will astound these people with wonder upon wonder.'
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby Bob the Quiet on Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:04 am

FreeInHim wrote:In Revelation 9:4 we’re told that the demonic locusts will have the power to hurt “those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

I’ve always assumed that we Christians will escape such a fate, despite being here, because we’re of the body of Christ. But further study sheds a different light on this.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Rev. 7:2
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev. 7:3

That we are sealed to God with the Holy Spirit is evident in II Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13, and Eph. 4:30. But this type of seal, or sealing, is distinctly different than the type of seal described in Rev. 7:3 and 9:4, wherein the seal is a distinguishable mark in the recipients’ foreheads. Furthermore, and equally plain, is the fact that the recipients of this protective seal are distinctly described as being Israelites, not Gentiles. Rev. 7:4-8

So I have to conclude that being Christian will not spare us from the sting of these demonic locusts, nor any other tribulation for that matter. Of all the Tribs coming, for some reason I’ve always had it in my head that Christians would be spared the horrible sting from these “locusts.” Probably an after-effect from reading the Left Behind series.

Thoughts, anyone?


Revelation never says that the seal of God is visible to us, perhaps we all have seals on our foreheads right now that only the angels can see.

Remember, being saved, we are all part of "spiritual Israel"...that is we are adopted into Israel by our faith in Christ. God doesn't care as much about our DNA and ethnicity as much as some would have us believe.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:21 pm

1 Thes. 5: 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't, nor will I ever, believe that we are going to suffer the wrath of God. I believe it will be going on all around us, but I believe that God will supernaturally protect us from His wrath as He always has protected His children in the historical accounts given in the bible.

I just pray that I am counted worthy.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby Sherree on Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:04 am

Amen, GodsStudent!!! I wholeheartedly agree!

Great thread, here, BTW!
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby Bob the Quiet on Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:02 pm

GodsStudent wrote:1 Thes. 5: 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't, nor will I ever, believe that we are going to suffer the wrath of God. I believe it will be going on all around us, but I believe that God will supernaturally protect us from His wrath as He always has protected His children in the historical accounts given in the bible.

I just pray that I am counted worthy.

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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:40 am

1whowaits wrote:The demon locusts have human and non human characteristics, they appear to be a hybrid, which is what the Nephilium were. And Isa 28 does apear to suggest that the Nephilium will be making a comeback at the time the covenant with death is annulled.


Are you getting this from this?

Isa 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that [a man] can stretch himself [on it]: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself [in it].

This is a completely spiritual application to those that don't seek refuge in Christ, the cornerstone. This has nothing to do with the Nephilim. The bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself upon it, so that he is forced to cramp and contract himself. And that in which they thought to shelter themselves proves insufficient to answer the intention. The covering is narrower than that a man can wrap himself in it. Those that do not build upon Christ as their foundation, but rest in a righteousness of their own, will prove in the end thus to have deceived themselves, and they can never be easy, safe, nor warm. The bed is too short, the covering is too narrow without Christ.

The demon locusts event is entirely allegorical, not literal as in their appearance, but their appearance defines their character. This consistent with most prophecy when describing animal creatures portraying worldly person, places or things. Read carefully...

Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

The smoke in this passage portrays the clouds (wisdom and majesty) of errors arising from his work and deception, darkening the sun (gospel,light),and the air (the influence of Christianity on the minds of men and women). In this empire, he and his followers are so successful that the light of Christianity almost goes out.

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

These locusts represent an invading, ruthless army.
The scorpion sting is represented by the influence of this army on it's enemy. A scorpion catches his prey and poisons him slowly. This will subject them to proselytism, poison them with their doctrine, and hold them by force, then kill them if they don't comply.
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I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:35 pm

Walrus, well there is the allegorical view and the literal view. Rev 9 describes a star falling to earth, which appears to be an angel as it opens the abyss. And angels literally fall to earth, they are cast down during the war in heaven in Rev 12, a literal event will occur consistent with Rev 9. The Abyss that is opened is a literal place where demons are consigned and they fear it. 5 months is a literal period of time. Having a seal in the forehead is a literal seal according to Rev 7.

The description of the 5th trumpet appears to describe a literal event, there will literally be an openeing of the abyss with some sort of being coming from that place of demons. These beings are described as having human and non-human characteristics, which would point to something rather odd or alien occurring.

And Satan does appear to be preparing the world for some sort of alien appearance. The UFO sightings are going up world wide and an appearance by an alien being would not be surprising to anyone, it is almost expected at this point. It is interesting that this UFO stuff increased in the late 40's, after Israel became a nation, Satan can also see the signs of the coming end of the age, he knows his time is short.

It is with this view i look at Isa 28, which appears to have factors consistent with the middle of the 70th week. Ephriam is another name for Israel and currently the city that is the crown of Israel is Jerusalem. Isa discusses the drunkeness of the priests and prophets and some other factors consistent with the feast of Purim, which is 1,290 days prior to the fall feasts,which is the likely time of Jesus' return and the end of the 70th week.

Isa 28 also discusses the covenant with death that Israel enters into, which is associated with the overwhelming scourge which appears to carry people off (then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent-which would appear to occur prior to Israel being protected for 1,260 days- Rev 12). (the pagans associate the abyss, the door to the underworld, with the area which is also known as the head of the serpent- the serpent spewing forth and the opening of the abyss could be describing the same event)

Isa 28 describes the measuring line and plumb line which are associated with the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple in Jer 32, Zech 2 and Rev 11. The latter part of the chapter is a wisdom poem discussing planting and threshing of different grains, which conspicuosuly leaves out the method of the threshing of the wheat, which is associated with believers, which is the tribulinum, from which we get the term tribulation.

Isa 28 does appear to have factors that could be consistent with the events of the midpoint of the 70th week and the GT. And this passage leads into a description consistent with armageddon, when all nations gather against Jerusalem (Ariel). And the passage goes on to state that God has sealed the eyes of the prophets and covered the heads of the seers and that what is written in the scroll is sealed, suggesting that there is more in this passage.

And in the middle of Isa 28 is a statement -'the understanding of this message will bring sheer terror.', obviously there is something here that will cause great fear. How is it that the allergorical interpretation will cause great fear?

Will the interpretation of a giant or Nephilium in Isa 28 cause sheer terror? I believe it will- ''During those days men will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.' from Rev 9 and the 'locusts' whose faces resemble human faces.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:01 pm

1WW, I have to disagree with you on the locust analogy, but that could be a lengthy one :), but you didn't address the main premise of my question;

Where do you get the Nephilim out of Isa 28?

What I disagree with you on the locust analogy is simply that you are taking it literally, as if we are going to see this star, who is Satan fall from the sky. Then the earth opens up and out come this army of locusts and demons, along with Appollyon. I apologize, but this alone would destroy everyone on earth, and the earth itself. This is all allegorical prose describing the spiritual realm of what is transpiring on earth. Which is consistent with most prophetically biblical prose.
The sole reason why this demon is named Appollyon or Abaddon is to describe it nature, and that is destructive.
Hence - these gods are the Destroyer
Although Isa 28 does describe the GT in some detail, which I agree with you there, but it doesn't speak of any Nephilim.
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I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:19 am

Walrus, Isa 28 does not directly state anything about the Nephilium, but it uses a riddle and the answer to that riddle does point to giants, Rephaim, and fallen angels. The passage sets this up as a question that begs an answer of significance- 'the understanding of this message will bring sheer terror'.

Who causes sheer terror? who has a bed that is too short and a blanket that is not wide enough? Who is associated with the battle of Mount Perazim and the Valley of Gibeon? What is a strange or alien task for God to do when He has dealt with men on a regular basis for 6,000 years? Who is bound in chains that would dare to mock God?

The answer to all these questions point in one direction, a direction that is consistent with something that was present during the days of Noah, and would appear to be consistent with the locusts of Rev. And the earth would not be destroyed by the openeing of the abyss, who said the abyss was on the earth? And there are limits placed on the locusts, they will cause terror to those who are not sealed by God.

Isa 28 does not state everything directly, it is as if we are expected to reason this out- 'Who is he trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those taken from the breast?' The answer is no, He is not teaching the children, He is teaching and explaining to the adults, the ones who should be able to reason this out.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:17 am

1WW, I still don't see the end times application, or past be it that, for the Nephilim, directly or indirectly.

Vs. 19
As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through." The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror.

The sheer terror is caused by God, and what He has brought for those who don't seek Him, and what many parts of this chapter refer to, and that is Christ. The thought of eternal condemnation is sheer terror.

Vs 20
The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you.

The only sure rest is in Jesus Christ.

David and Joshua are associated with the battle of Mount Perazim and the Valley of Gibeon. The strange act that God inflicts is being against His own people, which is contrary to both battles here mentioned. What He did there was for the good, but what is to come is of the bad, yet His strength is of the same intensity. Now that is something to be revered, and feared. God does not delight in judgement, however it is, though necessary, yet strange to Him.

I really don't see any correlation with this chapter that is consistent with the days of Noah or the Locusts of Revelation.
Perhaps in judgement, but only alluding to the underlying message which is turning from Christ will bring upon tribulation. Here Isaiah begins by first showing the northern kingdom of Israel that their pride and scoffing would bring them to destruction. Not many years had passed before God used Assyria in judging the northern kingdom known as Ephraim, the capital of Israel. It is this very same judgment which occurred north of Judah’s border during Hezekiah’s reign that served as a background for chapters 29-32.
The prophet warned Israel in the north of their evils and due punishment. Judah now is being forewarned and her judgment or reward is awaiting Judah’s response.

The bottomless pit is where in Rev 9:2?

Isa 28 does state everything directly, and who is he trying to teach is all of Israel and Judah of coming judgments. This message is being spoken to all of those in Israel and Judah, as well as us if we don't choose and "lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."

I just don't see it...this is a personal application to our lives as Christians explaining what happens to us when we don't lay in that bed of peace and comfort. This was a cry from the Lord to His countrymen to follow His ways, in which they did not, which serves us as a reminder of the consequences.
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Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:49 pm

Walrus, perhaps i am seeing something that is not there, or perhaps i see things a little differently than others. At times i see the views that you put forth as being a bit unconventional, but perhaps it is i who is the one that is 'unconventional'.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:03 am

1WW, you are a blessing beyond comprehension. I have to humble myself many times as I search the scriptures...it appears you are doing the same. What is unconventional 1WW, is not your view or mine, it is rather the search for truth outside of the scriptures. This is where we must not falter in any way. This is what Satan wants, is for us to search outside of the Word for answers that are inside the Word.
Many quote other books not included in our Bible, some quote Josephus and Irenaeus,and so on and on...but is that our authority over the Word? It is not.
Daniel was confused, only until Gabriel explained things to him.
Many of us are confused, but God will reveal Himself to us in the Word.
That is where we must look, and that is where we must stay.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby CaryC on Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:56 am

Hey,

I realize that Iamthewalrus and 1WW are sort of having a conversation, but when Appollyon, which is Greek, and Abaddon, which is Hebrew, was mentioned I thought I would throw this in just for information.

In Job's dialog about Godly Wisdom in Chapter 28 he mentions:

Job 28:22 Destruction and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears.

What is translated here as "Destruction" is Strong's H11 which is the Hebrew word abaddon. The Ampified Bible, which I am not promoting just using it to point to this verse, has it this way:

Abaddon (the place of destruction) and Death say, We have only heard the report of it with our ears.

Besides being interesting that they have only heard of Godly/God's Wisdom, and never experienced it, it would also seem that, at least in this reference and so then maybe also in Rev. Destruction/Abaddon and Death speak, so as to make them out to be ......an entity, in stead of a place. Might want to cross reference this to the Death Angel at Passover.

I would also like to point to another verse, which references actual locusts/grasshoppers, which move like a cloud over the earth eating all the can:

Pro 30:27 The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands;

Each one of us can stand up and testify that those green little bugs have no leader, no king, and no ruler, but yet they travel as a cloud over the land, together, in a band.

But yet:

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Since the Bible does not contradict itself, then there is obviously something other than those little green buggies in view in Rev.

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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:42 am

Cary C, you are filled with the Holy Spirit.
You hit the nail on the head!
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby CaryC on Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:24 pm

Hey,

Gosh, thanks IamtheWalrus I don't know what to say.

'Course their are some folks on here who are rolling there eyes over that statement in regard to me, but I do thank you.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:36 pm

Cary C,

The scripture you posted enforces the fact that these locusts are representative of an army. Don't fret what others think, I too, am sure I have rustled a few feathers on here, but we all love each other. I love reading your posts in Being Prepared. Prolly moving to North Bend, WA here pretty soon, so I will need some sound advice from you when the time comes.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:25 pm

Walrus, thanks, but i am not looking outside of scripture for an answer, i am attempting to draw together several widely separated passages for the clues to arriving at an interpretation.

The locusts are referred to as an army in Joel 2, but they appear to be consistent with the Gog-Magog army from the north that is destroyed by God.

The Abyss appears to be the place that the demons and fallen angels are sent to- 'Legion..because many demons had gone into him. And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.' Luke 8:31

There is no indication that men are sent to the Abyss, the bottomless pit, but to Hades, the place of holding- 'and Hades gave up the dead...' Rev 20.

The Abyss and Hades appear to be 2 separate places, one for demons/fallen angels and the other for men. The locusts that come out of the Abyss are therefore not men, they have some demonic or fallen angel origin. And yet they have faces that look like human faces and they appear to have a physical appearance, which is not consistent with demons, the 'locust' army is something else, not demon or spirit being, and yet not human. Is there any other being noted in scripture that is not completely human and not a spirit being?

Also in Rev 11 and 17 the beast is described as coming from the Abyss. There is no evidence that a man can exist in the Abyss and it appears impossible for men to come back from the dead without an act of God, so it would appear impossible for the beast, the man, to come from the Abyss.

But a fallen angel could arise from the Abyss, if he had the key or had been released, so the reference to the beast rising from the Abyss would appear to refer to the beast's, the man's, possesion by a fallen angel or demon. And there is only 1 fallen angel that is directly associated with the beast and that is Satan himself, who gives the beast his power.

Satan is also directly associated with the Abyss as he is cast into it during the millenium. As Satan is the dominant fallen angel and appears to desire all glory for himself, and that no other fallen angel is ever mentioned by name anywhere in scripture, it is most likely that the angel of the Abyss, 'destruction' (abbadon), is Satan himself.

Satan being the angel of the Abyss would be consistent with the beast being described as arising from the Abyss, Satan gives the beast his power and authority likely by possesing the beast, the man, and Satan can arise from the Abyss if he is the one who opens it.

Satan opening the Abyss and releasing an army of locusts who attack men, those who do not have the seal of God, could be consistent with Satan vomiting a 'flood', when he pursues Israel. Prior to Jesus' return, it appears that Israel does not accept Jesus as Messiah, and they are vulnerable to the locusts, they are not sealed. The opening of the Abyss by Satan could be consistent with Satan sending a swarm of demon locusts 'out of his mouth', to attack Israel. The description that the flood is stopped by the earth would suggest that a physical attack is made upon Israel, not an attack by spirit beings, which could be consistent with the locusts of the 5th trumpet who are not spirit beings.

This may also be what Isa 28 is describing as the 'overwhelming scourge', that apparently carries off some Jewish people and appears to be consistent with the 'flood'- 'but hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow you hiding place...when the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you wil be beaten down by it. As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through'.

It would appear that the Jewish leaders (you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem) believe they are protected from the overwhelming scourge by the covenant with death- 'You boast, we have made a covenant with death....When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have mad a lie our refuge..'.

The overwhelming scouge could be consistent with the locust army from the Abyss, the 'flood' that Satan sends to destroy Israel when he is cast down in Rev 12. And it is after describing the overwhelming scourge that Isa 28 states- 'the understanding of this message will cause sheer terror.....'

Do you still not see it?
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:54 am

1whowaits,

I never said you were looking outside of scripture concerning this topic. I just stated the obvious that we all do at times.

The locusts are referred to as an army in Joel 2, but they appear to be consistent with the Gog-Magog army from the north that is destroyed by God.


Which is also consistent with Rev.

The Abyss appears to be the place that the demons and fallen angels are sent to- 'Legion..because many demons had gone into him. And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.' Luke 8:31


Good find, but that still doesn't disprove that it is an army.

There is no indication that men are sent to the Abyss, the bottomless pit, but to Hades, the place of holding- 'and Hades gave up the dead...' Rev 20.
The Abyss and Hades appear to be 2 separate places, one for demons/fallen angels and the other for men. The locusts that come out of the Abyss are therefore not men, they have some demonic or fallen angel origin. And yet they have faces that look like human faces and they appear to have a physical appearance, which is not consistent with demons, the 'locust' army is something else, not demon or spirit being, and yet not human. Is there any other being noted in scripture that is not completely human and not a spirit being?


I agree...men aren't sent to the Abyss and demons do inhabit it, so does the Appollyon spirit. The issue here is that you are interpreting these spirits to actually be visible to our own eyes, with all these characteristics. That isn't what is being said here. John describes these locusts while being in the sprit, which begins in chapter 4. His vantage point does not see only what we see, he is seeing what is seen spiritually. That why he uses so much allegorical language in this book. John sees the characteristics of these locusts, and the key to understanding what they are is in the descriptions. They have human faces.....why? Because these are demons inhabiting humans..
And this holds the wisdom into understanding what these particular demons cohabit. Islamic warriors.

Arabs being described as locusts are rooted in ancient history. The Arab word for locust is Gindib. The Monolith of Shalmenser III from Kurkuk, the oldest account from Babylon and the oldest document mentioning Arabs, list outrightly, "Gi-in-di-bu' Ar-Ba-a-a" regarding Arabs and their territory called "Gindibu". :eek:

But that is outside of the Bible, and as confirming as that is, it isn't the right path into translating them.
What I am trying to help you understand 1WW, there is a time for literal and a time for allegorical, and there is a time for both, and this is the time for both. Yes these are demons, and yes they come out of the Abyss, and they have all these appearances like that described, but what is being described is the key to understanding it.
The only time we see angels is when they make themselves known, by the permission of God. We don't see them.
The only time we see demons are.....never. They always inhabit something earthly...like pigs...like people.
Satan indwells in a man....we don't see Satan, or a dragon, or a seven headed beast...and so on.
John is in the spirit..seeing things spiritually...and their human faces tell us that they are just that, human bodies.
They are an army possessed by demons, led by Appollyon, possessing a man, coming out of the Abyss into such.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:29 pm

Walrus, i would disagree, the trumpets do not appear to be allegorical, they are describing literal events. The 1st trumpet is consistent with the judgement at Gog-Magog, the 2nd is consistent with a literal asteroid strike, the 3rd describes the literal tainting of water, the 4th the darkeneing of the sun and moon which will literally happen.

The 6th trumpet describes a literal location, the Euphrates, and a literal number of troops, 200,000,000. The 7th trumpet describes the literal return of Jesus, when the kingdom of this world becomes the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, which only literally occurs at Jesus' return.

All the other trumpets appear to describe literal events, which would suggest that the 5th trumpet is a literal, physical event.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:57 am

So you pointed out literal events of Revelation, and they are indeed, but is that the only lens you are going to see through? Am I to assume that we are going to see a seven headed beast running around according to your interpretation? Of course the fifth trumpet is a literal event, the angel sounds who is in heaven..why?.. because John looks up and:

Rev 4:1 .........., a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.

All the trumpets are literal events, so are the seals and everything else in Revelation. But there are allegorical elements throughout it describing literal events. These verses begin the seals which leads to the trumpets and bowls/vials. Vantage point is in the spirit. According to your interpretation all the visions from this point onward, are to be seen by our own eyes, which aren't in the spirit like John's are?
Sounds very farfetched. There are plenty of literal, actual events described that we will see, but there are also events described that we will see personified by how they were described. Did that make sense?

Let me put it plainly. I am angry. You look at me, but I don't look angry. My hearts is angry. Spiritually, as seen by angels, God, and John who is in the spirit, sees that I am angry. But you still don't.
John is in the spirit, in Heaven. He sees the Abyss open up and these demon locusts come out with Appollyon.
You and I are on earth, not in the spirit, or in Heaven. We see an army with a General battling their enemies who are the righteous. This army is represented by the characteristics of the locusts, "...as the scorpions of the earth have power.."
The abyssos/abyss is a prison for certain demons (Luke 8:31, 2 Peter 2:4, and Jude 1:6)
Overall 1WW, you see these creatures as being actual beings that will look like what is described, and I do not. I believe John was in an altered state that you and I have never been, or at least myself at this degree :grin: , and these demons, their characteristics, their bodily features and habits, are recorded by the vision to correlate to the army's nature. The army is led by the most high ranking "Destroyer", Satan has to offer, permissible only by God of course.

I see scripture this way:

Allegorical
Literal
Allegorical and Literal
All of it Spiritual
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:18 pm

Walrus, i would agree that there is allegorical and literal in Rev, the difficulty can be in determining which is which. I am thinking this is a literal army, bred by Satan and the fallen angels for a singular purpose......in the vein of something like the Lord of the Rings, i wonder if the author was thinking of this passage, human combined with non-human in the bowels of the earth, a powerful army raised up by the evil one to destroy the world, interesting parallels, in light of the Isa 28-29 passage- 'Woe to those who go to great depths to hide their plans from the Lord, who do their work in darkness and think, 'Who sees us? Who will know?' -Isa 29 The Greek for Abyss is 'very deep' or 'bottomless', certainly a 'great depth'.

The point of this is that if the demon locusts are literal physical beings, a literal army under Satan's control, the kingdom of the beast will be much worse than anticipated- 'there before me was a fouth beast- terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the other beasts....' Dan 7

'He will attack the mightiest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god...' Dan 11

The kingdom of the AC may be much more than anticipated, much more than some Isalmic caliphate.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby plalgum on Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:43 am

Sue-M wrote:FreeinHim, this is the way I have always thought about it. These are Jews who are being marked here. Why are they marked? I believe it's because they are not saved yet. Either they are not saved yet or this is the exact time that their eyes are opened up and they get saved (en mass). And they are being protected by God during a time when they need to be protected.

Now, why is the Church not mentioned? Are we forgotten about? Well, you know, Jesus said that He would never leave us or forsake us. So, it can't be that we are forgotten about. And God has also told us that we are not appointed to God receive God's Wrath. So, it can't be that we are going to endure any part of God's Wrath.

The only way I can figure this is that this Scripture is only mentioning those that need to be protected. And just because Scripture doesn't mention those that have already been saved, doesn't mean that those people are not protected. Either that or the Church has been raptured by that time and we are no longer here.

I tend to think that it's more likely the last scenario that is happening in Revelation 9:4. I tend to think that the Rapture has just happened and those Jews who are destined to be saved, are marked to protect them from what is coming. And these Jews will survive into the Millenium. In my thinking, if the Rapture has happened, at that moment, there is no longer anyone on the Earth that believes in Jesus. And God will send extra protection to the remanent of Israel.

I think that the ones that will be marked are the 144,000 Jews, 12,000 thousand from each tribe of Israel.This 144,000 will evangelize the World, The ones who rejected our Lord will be the ones proclaiming the good news of the gospel,The world will listen!To further their witness the unbelievers will see them untouched by these stings,as for us,we will have gone :banana:
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby GodsStudent on Sun May 17, 2009 7:33 pm

This thread has just gone haywire. :humm:
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sun May 17, 2009 7:52 pm

Godstudent, you ressurected it...more input?
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby GodsStudent on Sun May 17, 2009 8:59 pm

Please pardon me. I did not mean to post in this box. I had two sessions of FP open at one time for study purposes and sent a comment in this thread in error. Sorry...
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby Yogi on Sat May 08, 2010 12:37 pm

Christians are sealed every bit as these 144k. Actually it should be said the other way around! It is my opinion that the scripture is simply indicating that these 144k must be sealed AS WE ARE before certain things happen.
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby sands on Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:32 pm

FreeInHim wrote:In Revelation 9:4 we’re told that the demonic locusts will have the power to hurt “those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

I’ve always assumed that we Christians will escape such a fate, despite being here, because we’re of the body of Christ. But further study sheds a different light on this.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Rev. 7:2
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev. 7:3

That we are sealed to God with the Holy Spirit is evident in II Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13, and Eph. 4:30. But this type of seal, or sealing, is distinctly different than the type of seal described in Rev. 7:3 and 9:4, wherein the seal is a distinguishable mark in the recipients’ foreheads. Furthermore, and equally plain, is the fact that the recipients of this protective seal are distinctly described as being Israelites, not Gentiles. Rev. 7:4-8

So I have to conclude that being Christian will not spare us from the sting of these demonic locusts, nor any other tribulation for that matter. Of all the Tribs coming, for some reason I’ve always had it in my head that Christians would be spared the horrible sting from these “locusts.” Probably an after-effect from reading the Left Behind series.

Thoughts, anyone?



Romans 9:"1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Are we children of the flesh or the Spirit ? Those are Israel which are born of the Spirit, through which we mortify the deeds of the flesh to obtain everlasting life...

John 6:"63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Galatians 5:"17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. "

Romans 8:"13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

The deeds of the body are referred to in Galations 5 and also many other scriptures things that we should flee from...Which by the Word of God are we born again no longer walking after those things which the wrath of God comes down upon...Those things which are the works of darkness.

1 Peter 1:"22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.'
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Re: No Escape from the Sting

Postby Yogi on Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:46 am

Ok, here is my two cents:(from another post-tribber)

We will NOT be stung by these locusts. And that is just what they are! The scripture says so, so BELIEVE it. but how can this be? (an excerpt from my DVD) "...with the known capabilities of genetic engineering, creating such a terrifying creature as a bio-weapon is not thought to be out of reach."

"Scientists studying sharks discovered that they were able to sense the magnetic field of their prey. This enabled them to find creatures they couldn't even see, hiding under the sand. The number of creatures with this built-in ability is unknown. These scorpion-like locusts could unknowingly be made with the same ability. Those taking the mark (microchip) will alter their natural magnetic field. To the locusts it could signal their drive to attack."

They could be released "accidentally" or as the result of the impact of the "star" (asteroid-Rev.8). By the way, their having a king over them, as in being satanically driven, we've seen this before with the herd of swine in the Gospel.

As far as those who receive the mark for protection, there are some aspects to be considered in addition to what has been posted so far.
#1- The case has been made for this being symbolic language fro the church (144k). If you want I can elaborate.
#2- A plain reading of this passage would simply indicate that Israelis become believers and are sealed with the Holy Spirit as Paul declares WE are.

Hope this helps.
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